It's reminiscent of the Covid maps that have beset us for the past 3 years. Now, the disease is located in human minds, and we our encouraged to view our fellow Americans as contagion. This is not a good way to do politics. It's actively evil and far more dangerous and destructive than feeling skeptical about an election that took place 2 years ago.
The election season begins officially today, the day after Labor Day, and if this is the way it's launching, what a horrorshow!
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Vote Republican if you want this to stop. Elon Musk and Joe Rogan are voting Republican. It's okay.
I was told that if Biden won things would be boring....
It's actively evil.
This was the Democrats plan. They make assiciation with Donald Trump a crime. They make "election denying" (of the sort carried out by Hillary Clinton) a crime. Then they funnel money to Republican candidates who have both Trump support and a history of wanting free and fair elections.
Then the President comes out and delivers his Reichstag speech - declaring these people "MAGA Republicans" and likening them to bin Laden. A modern day Kristallnacht. They've literally executed Adolph Hitler's playbook. Yes, I'd say that's actively evil.
They're actively evil people who should be nowhere near levers of power in our country and the next folks in power had better execute them. After a fair trial, of course.
It looks like data.
Must be scientific. Precise.
Until you ask (a) what are the criteria for categorizing a human candidate, and (b) who is making the categorization judgements?
Then all the data and science fall away and it goes right back to the root of everything: human endeavors and the product of humans judging and classifying other human who have independent minds and free will.
What if one of those "denier" candidates awoke this morning, and reconsidered one aspect of his or her formerly stated position? Will five thirty eight update their classifications?
No. Humans are static ciphers, don't-cha-know! They can be put in very broad and ill-defined buckets. "Denier" "Black" "White" "Woke" "Trump Supporter" "Social Justice Warier"
The election of Joe Biden was fraudulent. And everyone knows it.
It occurred because loyal Democrats in vote-counting offices in several key battleground states manipulated the vote totals beginning at about 3 in the morning (after they knew how many votes they'd need to manufacture). It was pre-planned crime, involving at least a dozen of our nation's current top leaders.
As Hillary Clinton - noted election denier - has repeatedly said: "You can have your election stolen."
They know full well how to do it and how simple it is to do. You don't need to steal votes all over the country. You just need key people in about a dozen or so precincts in the United States and they are very familiar with where those counties are and who is in the room counting. Very easy to bribe just those few people, or to ensure that a "Democrat patriot" is leading those offices.
Joe Biden, thief of taxpayer dollars, should be driven from office and removed by force if necessary.
It is amusing how the dialogue is controlled by one side, so the other side is always the baddies. It is as if this were a Mitchell and Webb routine. Are we the baddies because we wonder how a President and VP who drew 10s of people to their rallies, managed to convince 80 million people they were the best choice?
"Denier" is the secular word for "atheist"
You don't have faith in your government god
(needs a "bad religion" tag)
It's so weird that FiveThirtyEight is (allegedly) trying to be factual and numbers-crunching to avoid partisan bias
your science is bad!
Well I never got COVID but I caught the election denier bug.
Maybe we treat these people like the ones obsessed with “dog whistles,” using the great James Taranto formula that “if you hear the whistle then you’re the dog.”
If you use the words “election denier” then you are the one who won’t allow transparency.” It’s unamerican to deny people proof elections are safe and secure.
We all know who fight like hell to keep us from checking voter ID. Howard’s a good example of someone deathly afraid of the truth and distrustful of fair elections.
I would note that "climate denier" is the phrase applied to someone who believes in the scientific method (which is being eliminated from science). So now "skeptic" is to be replaced by "denier." Perhaps this will be used in all endeavors where one viewpoint is to be silenced rather than debated.
More Than 1 in 2 Americans Will Have a Baby-Killer on the Ballot This Fall
Jamie Raskin is an election denier. Hillary Clinton is an election denier. Stacey Abrams is an election denier. Al Gore is an election denier. Bennie Thompson (chair of the fake insurrection) is an election denier. I can go on and on and on.... There are a lot of election deniers that are on the left.
It started with denying evolution, right? Then became global warming denier, COVID denier, and now election denier. If you think different than what the Dem party wants you to think, you don't have a different, informed opinion. You are denying the truth and facts of the matter.
Even if the facts later change, it was wrong to ever have considered what turns out to be the truth *before* the official opinion turns back toward that truth.
More evidence that as a country we're engaged in a low-level civil war. The probability this escalates into actual physical violence is not zero.
This is not a good way to do politics.
In 2022, this is a great, effective way to do politics...or else they wouldn't do it.
I looked at that map trying to find Wisconsin and was surprised to see it somewhere in the Montana/North Dakota area. What a mess.
The D's are evil but they are also smart and patient. They've gotten this close to domination by slowly moving things in their direction over the last 2 decades. Things that would have been laughed at 20 years ago are basically accepted now or are almost accepted. We did not get here overnight.
The R's need to start being smart and patient as well. Instead of constantly seeking perfection in a candidate, the R's need to move the party in the right direction over time. Nothing happens overnight. Support the farthest right candidate who is electable. Get them elected and then do what the D's do- keep threatening to primary them unless they move farther right once in office.
I would be very happy if every candidate Trump supported wins in the general election. If that doesn't happen because some of them (here's looking at you Doug Mastriano in PA) can't win the general, we are screwed.
Esp. with all the Biden is a crook - and the denial of it.
It's right there in our faces.
Wait a second... there are a lot more deniers in CA than a few purple dots...
This is not a good way to do politics.
In 2022, this is a great, effective way to do politics...or else they wouldn't do it.
"Election Deniers"
How ridiculous. How ludricrous. How arrogantly mocking.
I'd say there's perhaps 20-25% of the population who actively believe the election was stolen. That Trump was rightly elected.
There's probably another 25-35% who believe there were significant issues with the election, with voting, with secretaries of state unilaterally changing rules before, during and after the election. With the actual integrity and assurance of an accurate voting count, well controlled, and auditable. And, therefore, a questionable result.
I'm personally in the latter camp. And I see Democrats going all-in on prevention of scrutiny of an election in which they won the Presidency. Of mocking anyone who calls for an audit.
And my life experience says that people who act that way do so to prevent scrutiny. And not because they are confident of the result.
Does this make me an "election denier?"
538 has always been left leaning, but such labelling is a disaster for them. Are leftists really taking the position that wanting iron-clad election processes is "fascist" and "election denying"?
"This is not a good way to do politics."
But it is. Progs eat it up, so it mobilizes the base. With MSM reinforcement, it also intimidates moderates. Nice women don't want to be tarred as deniers. It is one step in the Gleichschaltung.
"It's actively evil and far more dangerous and destructive than feeling skeptical about an election"
Well, but only in the sense that anything-goes prog power lust is actively evil. Destruction is prog MO. What have progs done recently that, in your view, is not "destructive"?
Progs pursue their goals rationally, cynically, all the time, with no shame. Sometimes they miscalculate, sometimes they have to take a step back, but they are honest and forthright and relentless. The nice women of America have gone along. It's up to them to join the deplorables and put a stop to it. Althousian lamentations notwithstanding, I don't think they will.
Kari Lake responds with class.
The left hold their ideals up to the stature of kings - you will obey them.
If you dare have a wrong thought - Off with your head!
Kari Lake responds with class.
The left hold their ideals up to the stature of kings - you will obey them.
If you dare have a wrong thought - Off with your head!
Kari Lake responds with class.
The left hold their ideals up to the stature of kings - you will obey them.
If you dare have a wrong thought - Off with your head!
Kari Lake responds with class.
The left hold their ideals up to the stature of kings - you will obey them.
If you dare have a wrong thought - Off with your head!
"far more dangerous and destructive"
Consider that half your fellow Americans want the destruction.
More Than 1 in 2 Americans Will Have a Baby-Killer on the Ballot This Fall.
That is "Life denier." I think it is more like 99 in 100 will have a life-denier on the ballot. I allow that there may be still one or two Dem candidates that are not life-deniers.
The "denier" label Liberals use ("climate denier" for example) is to associate anyone who challenges them or call bullshit on their bullshit with Holocaust Deniers.
Coincidentally what led to the Holocaust was that masses of people believed the vilification and hateful propaganda pushed by those in power against their fellow citizens. Propaganda ministers pushed the lies, same as our media pushes the lies. They even produced movies to promote the lies and embed the hatred and "otherness" in the culture. Kind of like what Hollywood does. It was all done very gradually.
Ironically at every stage everyone "denied" that it could get any worse. Even the eventual victims.
America seems to be following the same pattern. I'm sure Goebbels wishes he had a Joe Scarborough. Or ex-CIA agents willing to go on TV and outright lie to the liberal sheeple to keep them in line.
They poll-tested it
"election deniers" is like saying "fascist" but it works better
"you deny elections" = "you don't believe in democracy"
Biden tried "semi-fascist" but the polls came back bad
These fuckers really believe in polling
Biden is all "sorry about my blood red speech, won't do that again"
FiveThirtyEight is in charge of polling Democrat slogans, obviously
We've got the data!
"It started with denying evolution, right?"
I've always assumed it's an allusion to 'Holocaust denier'. They really want you to know that the target of their scorn is evil.
Five-Thirty Eight. What a joke.
After the 2016 and Nate Silver's bullshit, how does this site have ANY credibility? He was the main "Hillary has a 95% chance of winning"...guy.
Nate Silver is a propagandist operating on a pure self-preservation level. A true corrupt coward.
Nobody is rushing to “debunk” it.
The NYT went and literally recounted the vote in Florida 2000.
Ten years later, not so much.
The problem could be, this time, the “deniers” are mostly white.
538 is a scam. Either he has too small a sample size to make any meaningful statements or he's aggregating too much into one category. So, for example, we've had very few presidential elections & we've changed the rules significantly, meaning there are too few examples to matter. So he can lump in Senate races or something similar in order to simulate enough cases to make a statement, but that's ludicrous - Senate races are very different than presidential elections. It's all pseudo science.
Let's be concrete. You want to use elections before women could vote? Before Black people could vote? See the problem? So let's look at "modern" elections - 1964 on. That's 15 elections w/ rules that are somewhat similar to current rules. Uh, 15 - what kind of analysis can you do w/ an n of 15? You'd expect 8/7 by chance on any criteria, so is a criterion that worked about 14/1 significant? How about 13/2? Any line you draw is one election away from insignificance.
It's just a scam.
Here's Silver's real record. He predicted the outcome of 2008, 2012, 2016 & 2020 at best. He was wrong in 2016. So, you're saying that 3 out of 4 is significant? You'd get 2 out of 4 by chance! See what I mean? It's all a joke.
Deniers of the 2020 election or the 2016 election, or both?
Deniers of the 2020 election or the 2016 election, or both?
"Denier" is the new "racist".
The troll considers you and I subhuman, as he himself has allowed, and you only encourage his trolling by mentioning his name. Think of another way to express your thought. Ignore him when he posts; he believes maybe half of what he says anyway.
I just saw this map on a tweet, with a description of the project by one of its authors.
"Bonchie" replied, "Why only 2020?"
Good point. Here in Georgia I'll have an election-denier on the ballot for Governor. Hint: It isn't Kemp.
"I'm disgusted by the burgeoning "Denier" rhetoric."
This has been going on in this form for so long that the disgust may come more from suddenly seeing it than an actual increase. I now wonder what things I believed in my youth were as manufactured as this clearly is.
Will say there seemed to be a big uptick during the Obama presidency.
Cycle into totalitarianism:
Support for those in need
Avoiding criticism and discrimination of all
End of humor and the creation of taboos
Blind acceptance of media and establishment politicians
Demonization of political opponents and treatment as subhuman
Propaganda and ridiculous framing (i.e., Biden in black and red; this 538 story)
"Final solutions" and extermination
Election denier Stacy Abrams is running for the governor of the entire stata of Georgia, but only part of the state is purple. So I ASSUME THATthe entire map is partisan BS.
The problem for the Democrats, in the upcoming, is this is all they’ve got……Trump, Trump, Trump. Their underlying problem is, while many voters are indeed concerned about election integrity, it’s not the top issue or even in the top ten in some cases. The issues are the economy, food prices, inflation, fuel prices, getting the kids back in school, illegal immigration, etc. The Ds have no story to tell on these issues. As Don Draper famously said in “Mad Men”…..”If you don’t like what’s being said, change the subject.”
Multiple election results deniers on the ballot this year? So it’s not just Stacy Abrams?
I think it's weird that many on the left are so critical of terminology that reduces a human being to a condition. We must use "enslaved person" not "slave". We must say "persons without housing" not "the homeless". We must refer to "undocumented immigrants" not "illegals".
But those unusually cautious about vaccination are "anti-vaxers". Those who see discrepancies in Barry Obama's biography are called "birthers". Those who suspect intelligence agencies have not been fully forthcoming about the 9-11 attacks are "truthers".
It's another double standard, isn't it?
The reason it is most outrageous is that there are plenty of indications that there was massive funny business in 2020, including changes to how the election was conducted by SOS or election clerks which were not in accordance with the laws in the states, obvious issues with lockboxes, huge vote dumps, no verification, no observers, statistic anomalies that would be a flag to look for fraud in other situations, massive donations by Zuckerberg to "fortify" Democrat votes, etc. Third-world stuff.
Of course Democrats said GW Bush was selected not elected for four years, even though Gore wanted a selected recount in one very democrat county in one state, and even the NYT recount of all of FL resulted in a win for Bush. They also claimed Trump colluded with Russia, which has been proven to be the FBI, CIA and Hilary campaign colluding with the media to concoct the story.
Vote Republican that's all.
"The election of Joe Biden was fraudulent. And everyone knows it.
It occurred because loyal Democrats in vote-counting offices in several key battleground states manipulated the vote totals beginning at about 3 in the morning (after they knew how many votes they'd need to manufacture). It was pre-planned crime, involving at least a dozen of our nation's current top leaders."
Hey look an election denier.
"It's actively evil and far more dangerous and destructive than feeling skeptical about an election that took place 2 years ago."
Sorry Ann, this is not some passive set of skeptical feels -- this is THE dominant Republican political message, pounded every minute since August 2020 (yes, before the election) and driven home by Trump as recently as THIS WEEK saying the election should be flipped or rerun. Calling it what it is is "actively evil"? What nonsense.
They plan to steal a few elections this November as well. That's why we have suddenly have a plethora of articles touting the Democrats' "comeback" and Biden improving polling number. Anyone who questions the outcome of Senate races will be vilified as an "election denier" and a threat to democracy. Based on Biden's speech last week, I would not be surprised to see some of those that question the election results to be jailed for "insurrection".
Pro tip for Montanans: Deny when you LOSE, not when you WIN.
FiveThirtyEight should be fucking embarrassed
nobody on their staff thought, "so only Republicans deny elections?"
What would be interesting is if they went back to the 2018 election and did the same thing.
How many election deniers were on the ballot that year?
Do both parties do it?
Is it escalating?
Those are interesting questions. But you have to have some Republicans on your staff to have thoughts like this.
If all you hire is Democrats for your political journalism, you are going to embarrass the shit out of yourself
2 parties for a reason, dumb ass
Climate Deniers. Vaccine Deniers. Election Deniers.
These people who stand with those creating the terms of these terms are being hornswoggled into a false sense of superiority. Of being 'on the right side of history', as they like to say. Yet, when it's shown they are stuffed full of rhetoric and of themselves, and not much more, they do a side step and continue on their merry way, looking for the next thing they can claim we should all believe in, no matter what.
Climate doomers have been projecting an end to all things for decades now. Too many people, too few people, impending ice age, impending scorched earth age, melting planet, rising seas, Obama's new oceanfront home in danger. And if they don't get their way through their predictions, they make it happen through their policies. They predicted we'd run out of oil and gas. Well...not only did that not happen, as recently as two years ago, we were producing more than ever. So they put an end to it by policy. They killed oil and gas by policy and so, their prediction comes to pass. This winter they will all be sitting in the cold and dark and not a one of them will utter the phrase "We were wrong.".
They told us we'd run out of food. Again- the world can feed the world. But bad policies can kill agriculture, slaughter the herds, and make illegal new forms of food production. And so...while their sitting in the cold and dark this winter, they will also be paying more for food- those who can get it. Or in many cases, going hungry. Again- predictions will come true with bad policy that matches up with bad thinking.
So now we have clear evidence of election problems that go back decades. This is not new. It's just more egregious than ever. More in your face and there's nothing you can do about it than ever. So what do we do about this? Look to California to show the way. Bad policies born of bad thinking created a one party state so corrupt, crime ridden, homeless-filled, and overrun with illegal immigrants that the middle class is moving away or dying out.
Elections are the single most important act of citizenship one can make. That at least half, and more likely more than half of us find it impossible to vote if the voting period is 1-2 days, to bring an ID to verify their vote, to get up off of their asses and go to a polling place is reason enough for dismay. Add onto that we refuse to hire breathing adults who are not on the payroll of unions, the Democratic Party, or government employees to oversee our voting places, and it's a recipe for disaster.
If voting is so sacred, why are so many so adamantly opposed to cleaning it up? Why is something like ballot harvesting even considered? Why do we need 3 weeks to vote? And why are absentee ballots, meant originally for military and ill people, now just like ordering some tacos in which you can get as many sent to you as you want, whenever you want?
It's like climate change. I'll believe they are sincere about climate change when those screaming the loudest act like we're in danger and quit flying personal jets to their 3rd mansions all lit up and well heated/cooled. I'll believe they are sincere about safe and secure elections when they agree to allow us to secure them.
Security is not disenfranchisement. Open borders, mass ballot sending, ballot harvesting with no identification is disenfranchisement.
The party of Roe V. Wade? Of human slavery?
The party of vacuuming human children out from inside their mother's wombs?
The party where their candidates literally discuss murdering unwanted children AFTER they are born?
Actively evil?
You don't say. You don't say.
"Coincidentally what led to the Holocaust was that masses of people believed the vilification and hateful propaganda pushed by those in power against their fellow citizens."
Conservatives in America today are like Jews in Germany in the 1930s.
Thanks for this contribution to the discourse.
Lord, I am sick of this language. Stop. Stop with the cute graphics that mask a hateful intent.
@John The Democrat party will never ever ever ask themselves "are we the baddies?"
They know that they are always the good guys. Even when they change a position they just change with no reference to the past or why they have changed. They go full Orwell and say "We have always had the correct opinion."
Now let's see a map of which candidates think abortion should be legal up to (and even after) birth.
What is an "election denier"? Is it somebody who believes that the election was definitely stolen? Or is it somebody who doesn't definitely believe that Joe Biden was legitimately elected and that the election of 2020 was the freest and fairest in our nation's history?
There's also a distinction between the few who can't stop talking about 2020 and the many who are trying to focus on the future. I'd be wary of anybody who thinks the election could be overturned at this point, but hard-pressed to find anything wrong with somebody who believes we need better measures to prevent election fraud.
Something interesting to note - every state, except for GA, where the Dems stole the state’s electoral votes, is fully red. Even in the hotbeds of election corruption like Detroit and Philadelphia. My theory there is that the people in those states know what happened, even if the national Dem politicians and MSM pretend otherwise, and call them “deniers”.
Is Stacey Abrams included on the list of deniers?
Is Jamie Raskin or any of the other Democrats who denied the validity of the 2000, 2004, and 2016 elections on the list of deniers?
If the Republicans win election denying will be hip again.
"And I see Democrats going all-in on prevention of scrutiny of an election in which they won the Presidency. Of mocking anyone who calls for an audit."
Treejoe, given the MASSIVE scrutiny of the election, including the huge number of recounts and audits and investigations by Republicans and Democrats and non-partisan outfits, as well as endless court cases (insert tired talking point about standing) -- yes, this makes you an election denier.
Also your stats aren't close. Two thirds of Americas believe the election was legitimate. The remaining one-third believe it was stolen, and that category pretty much perfectly overlaps with people who believe there were "significant issues with the election".
Chris Paige wrote: "538 is a scam. Either he has too small a sample size to make any meaningful statements or he's aggregating too much into one category."
Dude, it's a lot simpler than that. Chuck Schumer just handed him a list of the Republican candidates that Chuck Schumer has been funding to now "out" as "deniers."
That's 538's data set: Chuck's list. Since 1944, certain people know how to generate hate of so-called "deniers."
Do you think I like being an election denier? I don't. It sucks.
Original Mike- you are right. It is a reference to Holocaust Denier.
What's with the "evil"?
I'm a denier, you're a denier, he's a denier, she's a denier, wouldn't you like to be a denier too...
No fucking way Biden won the election.
Covid was either a setup or just a fortuitous way to puke millions of untraceable ballots all over the electorate (never let a crisis go to waste).
France (France!) can run national elections and get the results the same evening.
We are not a serious country...
What a crazy phrase "Election denier". One could make the tired old point about Gore in 2000 and Hillary in 2016, but what good would it do? At least "election denier" means something as oppossed to "threat to Democracy" which means what exactly?
As for me. I deny the election with all my heart.
When fascism comes to America it will come shouting about Democracy and elections.
The problem is no longer limited to the elite and powerful that push and promote all the propaganda. It has now infected half of America's citizens. Watching Biden on TV at the Summerfest grounds in Milwaukee yesterday, and the fawning, 100% all in crowd soaking up the bullshit was quite disturbing. Helps you accept why the city is going to shit though.
Obviously cities like Milwaukee and Madison, WI are filled with the mask wearing, vaccine boosted sheeple. COVID propaganda really opened up my eyes in early 2020. It's no longer just some bullshit on TV. It's not just Joe and Mika. It's Fred and Ethel too.
It's the community, city, or county right on your border. It's your neighbor who chooses to live in the protective peace and safety in a "MAGA-Republican" town. It's your college educated female cousin you used to be close to, who is now a public school teacher. They want safety. They want their kids to go to good public schools. They want nice houses with good property values.
And just like a cowbird, the will lay their eggs in your nest hoping someday to push yours out.
Driving through Oconomowoc, WI yesterday (a very nice Republican community, schools open in 2020-2021 etc...beautiful lakes like Madison) there were hardly any political signs for Tim Michels or Ron Johnson, and that town will vote 70-80% for those guys. But I passed one nice house with Evers and Barnes signs all over the front lawn. A turd in the punchbowl.
I can't help but wonder, how does a liberal family like this live amongst the "semi-fascist MAGA-Republican Trumpies"? Are they really ok with living next door to "Hitler lovers"?
Doesn't it bother them at all to know they are living amongst the "climate / election deniers"? The Evers and Barnes signs are are more than a big "fuck you" to their neighbors. When the time comes, they are the ones that will turn you into the thought police and the politburo. They've been envious of your property for a while...
"What's with the "evil"?"
I don't call things "evil" very often, do I? So I can see why you might be taken aback. Good! I don't deploy that word lightly.
It is evil to demonize fellow citizens for expressing skepticism, for thinking for themselves and expressing it. It's dangerous to build political energy by creating an "enemy within." It's terrible to use the word "denier" which in recent years has been used to refer to people who won't accept the overwhelming evidence of the Holocaust. It's jumping ahead to a claim that what you want to be true is absolutely and incontrovertibly true, without doing the hard work of amassing overwhelming evidence. To jump ahead like that is to demand that people be subservient and to scare people into accepting a prescribed belief. It's purportedly done to protect democracy, but it is an attack on the structure of democracy: free speech and access to information. It's downright oppressive, and yet they pose as the good guys. Even if they are right on the facts and Biden did indeed win in 2022 and a thorough examination of the vote would prove it decisively, they are still wrong to do what they are doing now.
Carol said...
Pro tip for Montanans: Deny when you LOSE, not when you WIN.
Explain.
Two thirds of Americas believe the election was legitimate. The remaining one-third believe it was stolen
That poll was taken before Biden took office. More recent polls have different figures. Google choses to highlight the earlier polls which did indeed have 2/3 of likely voters believing the election was fair and square. Later polls have a majority believing that fraud happened, though not that it was definitely stolen.
It's almost like Biden has been doing something wrong. The more he talks about "election deniers" the more people believe them.
The Godfather was right. The Mafia is more honorable than the U.S. Government.
What Althouse just said 👆🏽
As many have noted, this is a partisan article. Only at the bottom do we read "See whether the Republicans running in your state have denied or accepted the legitimacy of the 2020 election" It would have been interesting if it had assessed both parties for "denialism," such as that espoused by Ms. Abrams.
It is pretty classic othering.
I mean it is horrible and stupid and dangerous, but it is easy to identify what it is.
"It's actively evil and far more dangerous and destructive than feeling skeptical about an election that took place 2 years ago."
Imagine that! Evil, dangerous and destructive! And from the media consorts of the Party that gave us QuidProJoe, Kamala and their ruinous accouterments.
Climate Deniers. Vaccine Deniers. Election Deniers.
Let's not forget "Science Deniers" - people who question science bureaucrats.
Science can never be questioned.
There is one incontrovertible fact about 2020 Presidential election: it was unprecedented. Since Hoover, the President running for re-election won second term with more votes than first time around or lost it with less votes than first time. That was always the case. Hoover, Carter and Bush Sr lost votes and lost re-elections. Nixon, Reagan and Bush W gain votes and won re-elections. (Obama was the only exception; he lost votes but had enough margin to win re-election).
Trump gained about 11 million more votes than the fist time, about as many as Reagan or Bush W ( I think Nixon did better). So Trump losing re-election was unprecedented. Now, I realize unprecedented doesn’t mean impossible. Perhaps there is a satisfactory explanation to what happened in 2020. I just like to have that explanation so I could file the whole event into my memory and say, there are many reasons to be skeptical but there is an explanation that makes sense. Of course the problem is that instead of explanation we receive lectures, insults and threats.
Given the present state of US politics, Biden should have gotten at least 65 million votes, because about 65 millions voted for Hillary in 2016. To be generous, I give him another 5 million to make even 70 million. What I want explanation for is where 10 more million votes came from?
I agree with everything you say, but since extreme rhetoric is business as usual for the left, I can't work up any more than the usual level of disgust over it.
So Five Thirty Eight has gone full fraud denier? Sad.
I, for one, am glad the 2020 election wasn't stolen. It tells me dem voters aspire to have their classification elevated to "Shit For Brains". Biden/Harris was a judgement call.
"It's terrible to use the word "denier" which in recent years has been used to refer to people who won't accept the overwhelming evidence of the Holocaust."
I hate to burst your bubble, but the "overwhelming evidence of the Holocaust" is one more big, fat lie. Nobody heard anything about the "Holocaust" while it was supposedly going on. The first claims were produced at Nuremburg, by the same Soviet prosecutor who ran Stalin's show trials, using German witnesses who had been tortured for months. Holocaust reparations are now a vast industry. Have you ever wondered how come there are so many "Holocaust survivors"? Many of them survived long stays in two or three different "death camps". Just that well-known German inefficiency, I guess. The poor, bumbling Nazis just couldn't figure out how to kill someone.
cfs said...
"They plan to steal a few elections this November as well."
Absolutely true.
Blogger is making me miss AOL dialup.
Elvis, (the British one), predicted ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWZ32XIsZIU
Bidem won because of his tireless campaigning...from his basement.
"I'm not joking!
Where can we get our "I'm proud to be a Burgeoning Denier" T-shirts?
The best part of this is the left's use of the word 'denier.'
It is quite calculated and meant to conflate election deniers with holocaust deniers.
The only problem is, there are maybe 1,000 people on earth who don't believe that holocaust actually happened.
And they only get attention because the phenomenon is so rare...
"Blogger is making me miss AOL dialup."
Yeah, Blogger has been an absolute turd this morning. Is it coincidental that Althouse is posting about election transparency?
"I can't help but wonder, how does a liberal family like this live amongst the "semi-fascist MAGA-Republican Trumpies"? Are they really ok with living next door to "Hitler lovers"?"
They'd rather not but it's a lot safer than living next door to the diversity they support. They know those MAGA-Republican Trumpies aren't going to beat them up or burn down their house.
It took me a few beats to understand burgeoning denier. For second there I thought it going to be something about Hillary running again…
OT -- Bruce, I don't disagree that Metro Atlanta is a hotbed of election corruption, but, as I've unsuccessfully tried to relay to conservatives in Georgia for years now, demographic change impacts elections here far more.
So maybe we're "demographic change deniers." But not in the usual pejorative sense of the term.
Blogger Jupiter said..."I hate to burst your bubble, but the "overwhelming evidence of the Holocaust" is one more big, fat lie."
I go back and forth on what I think of your opinion. Thanks for settling the issue.
Jupiter, I can believe you or I can believe my Uncle who helped liberate one of the camps. Not a tough decision.
@Daniel12
Hey Daniel ... "election denier" here. Who said this:
"You can run the best campaign, you can even become the nominee, and you can have the election stolen from you."
No that's not some right wing zealot. That's Hillary Clinton speaking. Noted election denier Hillary Clinton warned us of this. Over and over and over again.
You have a problem bro, that you need to deal with. Why has every losing Democrat in the last 30 years - up to and including Stacie Abrams - warned us about stolen elections, only for it NOW to become verboten to discuss? Or somehow disingenuous to take notice of? It is TRIVIALLY EASY to steal the Presidential election. It requires that you have partisans in only about 12 voting precincts in America.
Hillary warned us. But now you have a problem with this. Explain yourself.
Deniers is more politically correct than traitors.
Deny, Deny, Deny. #HateLovesAbortion
I also very suspicious of the idea that now questioning elections is verboten. But I don’t think “they” are doing it to shore up Biden’s potentially illegitimate victory. With the press in his corner, he could stave off any challenges. I think it is more likely that it is battle space prep for upcoming elections.
I am so sad that this is what I think about my country, but I think it’s justified.
Isn’t 538 the website that declared, on Election Day, Hillary had a greater than > 90% chance of winning the 2016 general election against Trump? I’ll start from that fact and reread their proposition today.
Orwell had Emanuel Goldstein.
We have deniers.
Does the left 'deny' several swing states stopped counting ballots at approximately the same time?
Does the left 'deny' those states then kicked out all the poll watchers?
Does the left 'deny' those states started counting ballots again with no observers present?
Does the left 'deny' when the totals were updates several hours later, Biden was suddenly in the lead?
If you deny those things, you're a liar because they actually happened.
If you don't deny those things and still admit the election was proper? You oppose free and fair elections. And that makes you the enemy within.
Burgeoning? Oh it's done burgeoned. It's garnered a lot of usage in the last several years.
So let me get this straight: The Know Nothings want to deny the results of elections which they lose but calling them election deniers is "actively evil" .
"Jupiter, I can believe you or I can believe my Uncle who helped liberate one of the camps. Not a tough decision."
I expect your uncle told you that he saw a lot of dead and dying people. Germany was in ruins, transportation had broken down, food was scarce, and typhus was rife. But maybe you should ask yourself, "Why were people dying of starvation and typhus in a death camp? Why weren't they all dead?".
"It is evil to demonize fellow citizens for expressing skepticism, for thinking for themselves and expressing it."
Jim at said...
" Does the left 'deny' several swing states stopped counting ballots at approximately the same time?
Does the left 'deny' those states then kicked out all the poll watchers?
Does the left 'deny' those states started counting ballots again with no observers present?
Does the left 'deny' when the totals were updates several hours later, Biden was suddenly in the lead?
If you deny those things, you're a liar because they actually happened.
If you don't deny those things and still admit the election was proper? You oppose free and fair elections. And that makes you the enemy within."
Duuuh I went to bed and Trump was ahead. When I woke up he was behind. Duuuuuh the election was obviously rigged. And if you call me an election denier, you are actively evil.
"I go back and forth on what I think of your opinion. Thanks for settling the issue."
I call 'em like I see 'em. There's loads of evidence. Have you examined it?
It's terrible to use the word "denier" which in recent years has been used to refer to people who won't accept the overwhelming evidence of the Holocaust.
Welcome to the 2020s, Ann.
Althouse @ 10:29 AM
Holy Moly and agree. If you had said it any better, it would have spontaneously combusted.
Disgust is a feeling, apparently experienced by as many people giving respectability to election lies as by those opposed to such behavior and attitudes.
Disbarred is what happens when officers of the court (Rudy Giuliani) not only take the former position, but attempt to use court appearances and their professional position, fame, training and trust to do so.
As Ben Shapiro says, facts don't respect feelings. But the feelings of those disgusted by pushing the election fraud lie are at least supported by the facts. And therefore equally if not more legitimate.
If you have a better word than denial for what Giuliani was found to do, or for the support for that position he encouraged among politicians and a lay public, it might be nice to enlighten us as to what that word might be.
Let your disgust motivate you to make that productive change, if it's sincere. If you really think the majority view he opposed is so "destructive” and “dangerous.”
Be the change you wish to seek. What should we call "uncontroverted" evidence of "demonstrably false and misleading statements to courts, lawmakers and the public" if not denials?
What is the "improperly bolstered narrative" resulting from them if we are censored from calling it denialism?
Now, I realize unprecedented doesn’t mean impossible. Perhaps there is a satisfactory explanation to what happened in 2020.
The explanation is that the votes Trump gained in four years were not concentrated in the swing states he needed to win. While the votes that Biden increased his popular vote margin by over Hillary were. It’s pretty straightforward.
Trump converted more Republicans to Trumpism, but not independents or even some Republicans fed up by his failures and terrible conduct. They went back to the other side. His support may have intensified, but it didn’t grow much among anyone who isn’t already tribal enough to generally support Republicans at any cost.
Turnout was much higher than in 2016. 155 million total vs. 127 million total. 66.8% compared to 55.7%. Trump wasn’t the only one who grew his margin. Biden got 15 million more votes than Hillary. A performance improvement that dwarfs Trump’s 11 million vote gain by almost 50%. And again, it happened in the places that mattered in the EC.
Oh good Lord. Can we just lay the "but recounts!" thing to rest?
If somebody passes a bunch of counterfeit $20s in an area but all banks are allowed to do is count the cash they have rather than verify the validity of the bills, the count will remain the same every time. If somebody steals the actual plates and the paper stock and the ink and everything, such that the counterfeit $20s they make are virtually indistinguishable from the ones printed by the US government, those bills are still counterfeit, but there's almost no way - possibly no way at all, depending on how they manage serial numbers - to tell which bills are real.
This is why I refuse to "admit" (in the Middle Ages I believe the appropriate word would have been more religious - I think maybe "confess") that the recounts and "audits" that amounted to checking whether the bills were on the right paper with the right ink "prove" that the election was The Most Secure In History.
Oh, and - by the way. The retirement is not just that I confess that Biden is my Lord and Savior - of course I mean that the results of the 2020 election, as reported, were accurate - but that it was The Most Secure In History.
And yet it moves, dang it!
"It's actively evil and far more dangerous and destructive than
than feeling skeptical about an election that took place 2 years ago."
""It's terrible to use the word "denier" which in recent years has been used to refer to people who won't accept the overwhelming evidence of the Holocaust."
I always thought Ann jabbering about "the letters "NIG" are set apart by a fold in the fabric."
was her all time space cadet comment. But she continues to top herself- sometimes twice in the same post!
So a post contrasting election fraud conspiracies against Holocaust denial gets pushback… from a Holocaust denier.
Charming.
Predictable?
If others can engage poor Jupiter it would be interesting to ask him what he feels the Nazis lacked in carrying out Hitler’s dreams as described at the Wannsee Konferenz. The means? The motive? The opportunity?
Of course, few holocaust deniers are without a backup conspiracy to redirect what they see as Nazi innocence into anti-Jewish accusations/conspiracies. “Vast industries,” he says. The ready-made explanation for his whitewashing of the crimes of the same gangs that executed the handicapped and the mentally ill.
Jupiter must see himself as Hitler saw himself: Poor, beleaguered, so misunderstood. Cue the violins.
In any event, I’d love to have him on record as saying that Trump’s 60+ lost court cases examining his election claims were just like the Nuremberg Trials. Please feel free to make that comparison as often you like.
A cautionary tale against life in a fact-free world.
hpudding: "What should we call "uncontroverted" evidence of "demonstrably false and misleading statements to courts, lawmakers and the public" if not denials?"
A Kevin Clinesmith No Biggee?
Biden got 15 million more votes than Hillary.
Bullpuckey. At best, Not Trump got 15 million more votes than Hillary. Biden as a candidate was singularly uninspiring. Check the enthusiasm reports.
A performance improvement that dwarfs Trump’s 11 million vote gain by almost 50%.
Eh, 36% is closer to 25% than it is to 50%, but by all means.
And again, it happened in the places that mattered in the EC.
There's the rub.
I actually don't have a lot of quibbles with the general idea that Trump inspired as much as or more energy to vote against him than to vote for him, among those who vote based on their feelings, their sensibilities as it were, rather than on policy and success in implementing policy - sense, as it were. But I will go to my grave disbelieving that Biden - Biden, that mean, foul-speaking, creepy man, well known to be such by locals, or that cipher, that assassination insurance VP, that Parks and Rec joke - inspired good feelings in those who voted for him.
And I have yet to hear a persuasive argument for the electoral shenanigans in the various states that changed their rules before the election. Or a repudiation of the "shadowy cabal" confessional that appeared after it. I suppose seizing control (over decades) of the levers of public influence, then using them aggressively to silence dissent and promote a single narrative, is not exactly as clear cut as ballot box stuffing, but is it on the square?
The last election that was won by a republican and not "denied" by the New Soviet Democraticals was 1988.
Be the change you wish to seek.
This only works when you're standing in front of papier-mache columns. It takes props to be this sanctimonious.
What should we call "uncontroverted" evidence of "demonstrably false and misleading statements to courts, lawmakers and the public" if not denials?
It's not the word "denial" nor the actions of an advocate on behalf of his client that are the problem. It's "denier" - labeling all those who don't agree that the presidential election of 2020 was the most free and fair in history as belonging beyond the pale. You know it; you're just trying to shift the terms to your benefit.
Hunter Biden's tax payer funded Hooker said...
Kari Lake responds with class.
The left hold their ideals up to the stature of kings - you will obey them.
If you dare have a wrong thought - Off with your head!
*************
Funded Hooker, what made you publish your comment four times within a minute?
I don't think it's because you are dumb or inept.
But SOMETHING on this site keeps happening... more and more, and I think our blogmistress---who complains about wasted space in individual comments---should address this.
So srsly, AA: why do you allow this to go on?
HP--your hero Bill Clinton was disbarred. For lying in a court proceeding.
Giuliani was suspended. Not disbarred. By political partisans wearing robes. For making out-of-court statements that the partisans didn't like. Without a hearing.
And you are all for it.
Which is, frankly, disgusting.
https://thehill.com/opinion/judiciary/560563-giulianis-suspension-from-the-law-is-unconstitutional/
The explanation is that the votes Trump gained in four years were not concentrated in the swing states he needed to win. While the votes that Biden increased his popular vote margin by over Hillary were. It’s pretty straightforward.
Hilarious. The "swing states" is where the fraud occurred. Biden's "increase in the popular vote" was all those mail-in ballots.
You know it;
Oh I do, do I?
You know about as much about what I think as you know about the 2020 election. That is, not much.
But unlike you, I don’t have to pretend to be a mind-reader. I can instead look at the facts of the 60+ Court cases lost by Trump’s legal team and the judgment offered by those disbarring them for pushing their lies, now believed by Republicans who have about as much respect for the judicial system as Jupiter has for the Nuremberg Trials.
So the fact is that you have access to what happened to Giuliani for his fraudulent efforts to propagandize this belief. He was an officer of the court and expected to have some integrity about what he claimed he’d present to those courts - presumably for a reason other than pretending he had more of a case than he actually did.
So quibble about noun forms all you want. Claim some petty difference between denial (or denialism) and denier. At some point people have to exercise some integrity about the available facts that are there in front of their faces. And if they choose to willingly look away, simply to emulate the gracelessness of their reality-denying, belligerent leader (or his disgraced and disbarred consigliere), then they’re entitled to no more respect than he is.
Joe Smith said...
The best part of this is the left's use of the word 'denier.'
It is quite calculated and meant to conflate election deniers with holocaust deniers.
The only problem is, there are maybe 1,000 people on earth who don't believe that holocaust actually happened.
Not a good example. Well, bad, horrible example. Way more than 1000- in just the USA. Otherwise, I wouldn't know any. I do. And I know of many more. People I would call right wing nut jobs, and even more I would call mainstream Democrats. The Democrat party today is full of Holocaust deniers and Jew hatred. And Holocause denial is common on many websites that aren't deep dark and hidden.
And let's not even discuss the number in Middle Eastern countries not named Israel.
I don’t recall saying anything in defense of Bill Clinton let alone his legal integrity (ever) but if you need to chuck out that red herring however your desperation dictates it might indicate just how partisan you are.
The suspension of Giuliani was made for actions that did included his “statements to courts.” Repeating those statements to “the public” was just the larger part of his propagandizing that led to widespread belief in those “demonstrably false and misleading statements.”
Trump and Giuliani think they’re above any rules, and that’s probably why their fans identify with them.
Either that or maybe you believe that Ted Cruz’s father colluded with Lee Harvey Oswald.
Ask a Trump follower if Trump or Giuliani is always honest. Or if there are any rules they could break that would be unacceptable. Their silence says all you need to know.
This is what the electoral map would look like
if you used the same color for Republicans and Democrats.
Whoa!
Huge if true.
" Does the left 'deny' several swing states stopped counting ballots at approximately the same time?
Does the left 'deny' those states then kicked out all the poll watchers?
Does the left 'deny' those states started counting ballots again with no observers present?
Does the left 'deny' when the totals were updates several hours later, Biden was suddenly in the lead?
If you deny those things, you're a liar because they actually happened.
If you don't deny those things and still admit the election was proper? You oppose free and fair elections. And that makes you the enemy within."
Duuuh I went to bed and Trump was ahead. When I woke up he was behind. Duuuuuh the election was obviously rigged. And if you call me an election denier, you are actively evil.
Well I didn't go to bed. I live on the West Coast and I stayed up all night, and I saw all of those things happen with my own two eyes. They purposefully delayed the results in states they needed, waited until they knew how many votes they needed to win, stopped counting, kicked out the poll watchers and started counting again. I watched it happen
“OT -- Bruce, I don't disagree that Metro Atlanta is a hotbed of election corruption, but, as I've unsuccessfully tried to relay to conservatives in Georgia for years now, demographic change impacts elections here far more.”
“So maybe we're "demographic change deniers." But not in the usual pejorative sense of the term.”
I wasn’t commenting about GA politics, but rather that only it, of all the states where voter shenanigans are known to have occurred, had some blue enclaves on the map, and all of the rest of those states are completely red. I know very little about the state - I think that I have been there precisely once - flying through Atlanta about 20 years ago. I was going to say that I never left the airport, but upon reconsideration, I think that the airline put us up for the night. I wasn’t happy, but it wasn’t the fault of Atlanta, but the airline. Something like that.
John said...
"It is amusing how the dialogue is controlled by one side, so the other side is always the baddies. It is as if this were a Mitchell and Webb routine. Are we the baddies because we wonder how a President and VP who drew 10s of people to their rallies, managed to convince 80 million people they were the best choice?"
At this point I need proof that 81 million people voted democrat. Our progressives are twisting themselves in knots to avoid proving that 81 million people voted for Biden. When the statistical anomalies keep stacking up you you're being conned.
Biden 2024. Because the graft must flow.
Duuuuu I saw it with my own eyes.
Mutaman said...
Duuuuu I saw it with my own eyes.
I see you do not have a rational, thought-out explanation about how what we saw with our own eyes is perfectly innocent and normal, and not a sign of an election being stolen.
Instead, you only have mockery.
Which makes me wonder: if the election was stolen, why the obfuscation and name-calling? Why not come out and explain how the election wasn't stolen? How everything was done above-board, fair and square?
Instead, I just see obfuscation, mockery, demonization, and outright censorship.
Oh, and that one confession printed in Time Magazine, about how the Powers that be "fortified" the election. They bragged about it.
"Instead, I just see obfuscation, mockery, demonization, and outright censorship."
I see a guy who's about 2 1/2 months behind the times.
Mutaman said: "I see a guy who's about 2 1/2 months behind the times."
With the way Maricopa County is handling their electoral responsibilities, I can't help but think that competent running of clean elections is still a timely issue. And it's a shame that the United States has an election system that makes Mexico and France look particularly competent.
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