Althouse: "Dave Smith Breaks Down the Reasons Russia Invaded Ukraine."

September 29, 2022

"Dave Smith Breaks Down the Reasons Russia Invaded Ukraine."

164 comments:

Achilles said...: =D; 9/29/22, 9:15 AM
RideSpaceMountain said...: It's sad that you won't get 1% of this kind of analysis and discussion anywhere else.; 9/29/22, 9:16 AM
Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves said...: I told you. This is the globalist Left War. This is Biden's war. (well - his corrupt handlers)

The corrupt left want this war. Liz Cheney[types] wants this war.; 9/29/22, 9:21 AM
RideSpaceMountain said...: It's kind of spooky actually. Growing up playing Ghost Recon or other videogames and also during my military career there was always the scenario that a big-hot war would erupt over Donbass (Donetsk specifically). Both in the fictional and not-so-fictional scenarios it always came up, and now it seems it's actually happening.

Teach your kids geography, both culturally and historically. I'm teaching mine directly and actively. It matters.; 9/29/22, 9:23 AM
Joe Smith said...: Smith's speech patterns are similar to Rogan, just at 45 instead of 33.

Peace wasn't negotiated early because then there would be no skimming of $50B.; 9/29/22, 9:24 AM
Achilles said...: I particularly like the description of the term "unprovoked."

It is obvious to everyone that Biden "unprovoked" this war.

The reason that Trump ended wars and Biden started wars was because of this distinction.

It also displays the utter dishonesty of the DC regime and their neocon warmongers.; 9/29/22, 9:32 AM
hombre said...: And here I thought it was so Biden could increase the national debt among other absurdities.

Given the current level of insanity of Democrat leadership and half our population, why shouldn't we flirt with nuclear war?; 9/29/22, 9:36 AM
TheOne Who Is Not Obeyed said...: They invaded because that's what Russia does. Russia is what Russia is and Russia does what Russia has always done.; 9/29/22, 9:39 AM
Owen said...: Absolutely terrifying.

But we can't live dialed up to 11, so we soon dull our awareness and pretend all will be well.

Do not look at the fireball.; 9/29/22, 9:47 AM
Blair said...: This is what I kept saying from the git go, and people kept telling me I was working at some troll farm in Moscow. Well how's the weather in Davos, bitches?; 9/29/22, 9:51 AM
Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves said...: The globalists need wars.; 9/29/22, 9:53 AM
Lem Vibe Bandit said...: I linked to this last night but I think I made an html mistake… or something.

There’s so many unanswered questions surrounding the sorry state we find ourselves in.

The press bears a great deal of blame, with their unanimous disinterest in the biggest story of the last couple decades. The incurious press is only matched by their disinterest in exposing the true origins of covid and the unexpected 20 million Biden votes.; 9/29/22, 9:54 AM
Ann Althouse said...: "They invaded because that's what Russia does. Russia is what Russia is and Russia does what Russia has always done."

Did you listen to Smith?; 9/29/22, 9:55 AM
Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves said...: When Hillary tosses out the packaged messaged pre-chewed sound-bite - there's the big clue that it's hot garbage.; 9/29/22, 9:55 AM
Sydney said...: That Gideon Rose guy is an idiot. Do these people think Russia doesn’t watch US television to see what our government is up to?; 9/29/22, 9:58 AM
Sydney said...: Also, it really pisses me off that our press completely ignored all the Biden Ukraine corruption.; 9/29/22, 9:59 AM
Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves said...: Leftists have minds that are shut like a trap. They Obey Hillary, Maddow, NBC, and Crook Biden.; 9/29/22, 10:08 AM
Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves said...: Leftists - watch at 5:57 and see your NBC propaganda arm at work on late nite TV.; 9/29/22, 10:11 AM
Heywood Rice said...: Multiple sources dude, multiple sources!; 9/29/22, 10:17 AM
Shouting Thomas said...: My first, also late, wife was a second generation Ukrainian/American Jew from, of all places, Skokie. Skokie was heavily populated when she grew up by people with a similar background who had fled the Ukraine to escape the relentless pogroms. Ukrainians were very enthusiastic participants in the Holocaust, although they were also horribly persecuted by Stalin’s Holodomor.

There are, I think, two full Ukrainian battalions, the Azov brigades, that are openly Nazi.

I suspect that the CIA planted Zelensky, a Jew, in power precisely to paper over this hellish anti-Semitic past of Ukraine, so as to make the war more palatable to Americans. This is a common CIA tactic in creating puppet governments. Ngo Dihn Diem was a French educated Catholic, installed as president of the CIA created South Vietnam. Vietnam is an almost entirely Buddhist country.

The Nazi nature of Ukrainian society is a reality. Don’t believe the CIA propaganda that that’s all in the past.; 9/29/22, 10:17 AM
Drago said...: Blair: "This is what I kept saying from the git go, and people kept telling me I was working at some troll farm in Moscow. Well how's the weather in Davos, bitches?"

The globalists need foot soldiers for their global money laundering efforts and to protect their ChiCom contracts and they've got quite a few volunteers right here at Althouse blog.; 9/29/22, 10:21 AM
Drago said...: Hunter Biden's tax payer funded Hooker: "Leftists - watch at 5:57 and see your NBC propaganda arm at work on late nite TV."

Leftists/neocons/GOPe-ers - watch at 5:57 and see your NBC propaganda arm at work on late nite TV.

FIFY; 9/29/22, 10:22 AM
Crimso said...: It's interesting he notes Trump's alleged quid pro quo with Ukraine, but not Biden's. Trump wanted them to investigate the obviously shady dealings going on with the Bidens, and this was well before it was clear that Joe Biden would be his opponent. Biden wanted Ukraine to NOT investigate their shady dealings with...the Bidens. Saying what Trump did was inappropriate is stretching it. What Biden did was very starkly inappropriate (and should have been investigated).; 9/29/22, 10:23 AM
Mark said...: Did you listen to Smith?

We've been treated here to that crap from Vermont. No need to listen to more than the minute of crap I heard from Smith.; 9/29/22, 10:25 AM
Michael K said...: Tucker Carlson was saying this last spring and was accused of being "Pro-Putin" by the usual suspects. He made almost the same points Smith did but a few weeks after the invasion.; 9/29/22, 10:31 AM
rcocean said...: I don't know who Dave Smith is, but he gives a great analysis of what actually led to the invasion and why the USA reacted the way it did.

He sorta left the important part to the last. The people in donbas will become part of Russia, because a majority want it that way. The border between Ukraine and Russia was drawn in the 50s by the Soviets, and it was completly arbitrary. And nobody really cared because Russians and Ukrainians are like Candians and Americans.

The bottom line is that NONE of this is the concern of the USA. Ukraine is not part of Nato. Its 5,000 miles away and on Russia's border. We have no right to tell Russia what to do with their border and Russia has no right to tell the USA what to do with OUR Border.

But Americans just love war and imperialism. Of course, they disguise it with all this cant about "Spreading Democracy", but deep down they just love playing real-life "Risk" and Yelling about "Putin is the next Hitler" and "Yeehaw, lets kill some Russkies". As Smith says, its Iraq all over again.; 9/29/22, 10:34 AM
rcocean said...: You'll notice that all these bloodthirsty warhawks, rarely if ever go fight themselves. Nor do they ever send anyone in their family. If they do go, its as some "Intelligence officer" or JAG lawyer, whose biggest threat is a paper cut.

Then they spend the rest of their lives posing as a "war hero".; 9/29/22, 10:36 AM
Amadeus 48 said...: The Iraq war was an eye-opener. It failed the Powell Doctrine tests. We should have conducted a punitive action against Afghanistan and hunted down bin Ladin. Instead we invaded Iraq with no real plan tor success.

Shameful. The same people are feeding us a line on Ukraine.; 9/29/22, 10:43 AM
Lem Vibe Bandit said...: The Cuban missile crisis has been memory-holed.; 9/29/22, 10:53 AM
mezzrow said...: How many "thought leaders" will not allow themselves to know anything that Smith said? In the discussion, don't forget that all sides can be (and probably are) corrupt to a greater extent than we can even imagine.

I think we deceive ourselves if we think we in the "West" can deal with Putin at this point, however. Once, perhaps, but not now. At this point, it is analogous to the Bidenistas who still pursue a deal with Iran. Putin's fantasy of his Russkyi mir is dying with the Russkyi men who will be either dead or gone on either side of this war. And what will stop China from picking the Asian bones of his lost empire? This is going to play out in a most gruesome and extended manner, I fear. Welcome to the future.; 9/29/22, 10:55 AM
Hey Skipper said...: It's sad that you won't get 1% of this kind of analysis and discussion anywhere else.

How we got here with Russia: The Kremlin's World View; 9/29/22, 10:57 AM
Drago said...: Every day that is spent instigating greater combat in Ukraine and burning more American resources in that part of the world is a huge win for the ChiComs.

Which is half of the point with the other half being the obviously corrupt grifting via Ukraine funding.

The ChiComs represent the only true existential military/economic threat to the US, assuming a nuke exchange with the Spain-sized-GDP russkis is off the table.

But then, the ChiComs have basically purchased all of Washington DC and most of our institutions and we can't have anyone focused on that now, can we? So its Ukraine all the way!; 9/29/22, 11:00 AM
rhhardin said...: There's also William Spaniel, who credits optimal calculation. No good vs evil.; 9/29/22, 11:03 AM
Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves said...: Biden was Obama's point man in Ukraine.

This is why we will never see justice for crook Biden. Obama is the untouchable multi-millionaire light-bringer.; 9/29/22, 11:05 AM
Jupiter said...: Just listening to the start of it, about the US (meaning the Nuland regime) telling Ukraine not to negotiate. In 1939, both the Americans and the British encouraged Poland to defy Hitler's attempts to negotiate a settlement of fairly strong territorial claims arising from the terms forced upon Germany at the end of WWI. The British were hoping they could arrange a defensive alliance with the Soviets, hopes that were, of course, utterly dashed, and shown to have been entirely fanciful, by the Malenkov-Ribbentrop Pact. Roosevelt's motivations are not so clear, but it seems that he expected war and wanted it to start soon. In any case, the result was that France and the UK made promises of assistance that they were in no position to honor, and Poland relied upon those assurances to defy Hitler.

Never forget that the ostensible reason Britain and France declared war on Germany was to protect Poland. Lucky Poland, to have such protectors!; 9/29/22, 11:08 AM
PM said...: Thanks for posting.; 9/29/22, 11:09 AM
Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves said...: Trump did it wrong, but so what? It doesn't change the fact that the Biden's are horrendous frauds and liars and craven crooks.... pulling in millions of dollars in insider international dirty deals.; 9/29/22, 11:10 AM
Tom T. said...: Even if someone's provoking you, that doesn't mean you're justified in taking the bait. Nor does it mean that it's in your interest to do so. Even if you can convince yourself that Russia is somehow the victim here, it's still hard to see how invading Ukraine was anything other than a colossal screw up by Putin.

The gyrations one has to go through to excuse Russian conduct are really quite something, though. On the one hand, Russia is the helpless pawn of unseen conspiracies. But on the other, the referenda it holds in the areas that it has invaded are genuine, spontaneous outpourings of pro-Russian sentiment.; 9/29/22, 11:12 AM
mikemtgy said...: Who is Dave Smith?; 9/29/22, 11:14 AM
Heywood Rice said...: Did you listen to Smith? - Althouse

It's your blog, why don't you have anything to say?; 9/29/22, 11:17 AM
Rabel said...: "Did you listen to Smith?"

I did for a few seconds and heard him citing Roger Waters as a man who "knows what he's talking about, Dude."

That was enough.; 9/29/22, 11:19 AM
Gusty Winds said...: Althouse said...
Did you listen to Smith?

Of course not. Liberals who believe in the Russian boogey man and are vested in their social media profile Ukrainian Flag, don't want to know ANY of the history or US culpability in this conflict.

They have to hold on to the Russian collusion lie to survive. The war in Ukraine solidifies their belief in all the propaganda they are fed by the Democrats and the media. It's actually kind of hopeless at this point. The US and Western Europe can pull any stunt they want, blame it on Putin, and these people swallow it all.

Look at the Nord Stream sabotage. Russia didn't do it. The US and NATO did. Provocation of a larger war, and an environmental disaster. But to an American liberal, it doesn't matter. Doesn't register. They need the Russian boogey man and they need to believe in their superior virtue.

Unfortunately...if they ever wake up...it's going to be too late.; 9/29/22, 11:36 AM
wildswan said...: There are two main points which Smith's argument overlooks. First, the Ukrainian people support their government in this war. They were mobilized without major protests - only women and children left the country. Compare with Russia where 197,000 men left the country is three days to keep from being mobilized and sent to Ukraine. So this war is not just something cooked up by US neo-cons and the Bidens. It can't be explained wholly in terms of US politics which is what Smith is doing.
Second. So what is this war? It is an imperialist invasion caused by a group in Russia led by Putin which wants to restore Soviet power. That means that whatever set of tactics wins the war for Russia will be used again. If the nuclear threat works, Russia will go after Moldava, Bulgaria, Romania, Poland, Hungary, Finland, Estonia, Latvia using the same threat. So we aren't just talking here about Ukraine. We can't just let it happen there and be OK ourselves. The threat will be used over and over and Soviet power will expand and expand until we resist or suffer the fate Smith suggests we allow for the Ukraine.
So resist now.; 9/29/22, 11:36 AM
Lurker21 said...: How much of our policy was deliberate and how much was just carrying on the Cold War as if on autopilot?

I didn't agree with the left-wing view of the origins of the Cold War. Stalin was expansionist and wanted to take over and subjugate whatever he could. He needed to be countered. But Biden does look like the leftist caricature of a Harry Truman intent on expanding American power and crushing and humiliating rivals.

Even in the worst days of the Cold War we recognized that countries like Sweden, Finland, and Austria could remain neutral and serve as a buffer zone between East and West. Now, that's not enough, and even Ukraine had to join NATO. Why?

But one can see the faults in our policy, and still recognize that Putin is an evil shit, and that Ukraine is more than just Nazis, people paying Hunter Biden, and the "globohomo agenda."; 9/29/22, 11:40 AM
DLNE said...: He is full of BS. Ukraine is a sovereign nation and it is not ok for Putin to threaten nuclear war in order to get Ukraine to give up its sovereignty. ... Also, why am I supposed to listen to this guy? I've never heard of him. Is he comedian or an MMA fighter or something?; 9/29/22, 11:42 AM
Howard said...: It's hard to tell if you people are Quislings by proxy or are addled by Stockholm Syndrome.; 9/29/22, 12:02 PM
Bob Boyd said...: As I have been saying in the comments for months, this war didn't start in February. The war in Ukraine is the direct result of yet another US regime change operation. It's another disaster like Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya....and we never learn, but a lot of people get rich and it justifies the build up surveillance state.
Instead of any contrition, these geniuses decided to mash the gas pedal and turn this into the most ambitious regime change op yet by deposing Putin...and here we are. Do you think it's going to work out the way they thought it would? Has it ever?; 9/29/22, 12:06 PM
Rusty said...: Trump threatened the flow of graft. He must be eliminated. Our foreign policy under the Biden administration is a money laundering racket.
That being the case all of Putin's nuke talk is a bluff to get America to finance the repair of Nord Stream. The graft must flow.; 9/29/22, 12:07 PM
chuck said...: My immediate reaction is that Dave Smith doesn't sound the least bit credible to me. There is a load of bullshit floating around out there, I've read a ton of rants like this, and I'd like someone more dispassionate who can argue both sides and explain their positions and history. Apart from justifications, I will point out that Putin's decision to invade was neither wise nor well informed. I think he was expecting to take Kiev in a week. I also think that if he had pulled that off, no one would have made a big stink about it. But the Russian strike failed, and they got stuck fighting a war of attrition using an army of poorly trained and unmotivated troops supported by crappy logistics.; 9/29/22, 12:10 PM
Heywood Rice said...: No mention of Paul Manafort...; 9/29/22, 12:13 PM
Achilles said...: TheOne Who Is Not Obeyed said...

They invaded because that's what Russia does. Russia is what Russia is and Russia does what Russia has always done.

Why didn't they do this while Trump was President?; 9/29/22, 12:22 PM
Achilles said...: Mark said...

Did you listen to Smith?

We've been treated here to that crap from Vermont. No need to listen to more than the minute of crap I heard from Smith.

Mark has the WAPO to listen to.

What else do you need?

This is how stupid you have to be to support the Biden Regime.

In 5 years nobody will admit to supporting Joe Biden just like most Germans in the 1950s resisted the Nazi's.; 9/29/22, 12:25 PM
n.n said...: Russia is in Ukraine for the same reasons they were in Syria during the second Iraq war: property and people, in that order, supplemented with the forward-looking risk of NATO expansion, and illicit operation of Wuhan-style labs did not ingratiate Kiev with the neighbors.; 9/29/22, 12:25 PM
Lyle said...: Vote Republican if you are against nuclear war with Russia.; 9/29/22, 12:25 PM
Lyle said...: Vote Republican if you are against nuclear war with Russia.; 9/29/22, 12:26 PM
Drago said...: DLNE: "He is full of BS. Ukraine is a sovereign nation and it is not ok for Putin to threaten nuclear war in order to get Ukraine to give up its sovereignty"

The US-based Biden handlers began the nuke saber rattling.; 9/29/22, 12:26 PM
Bob Boyd said...: If the people of western Ukraine have a right to self-determination and territorial sovereignty that is so sacred we are willing to get into a shooting war with Russia over it, why don't the people of eastern Ukraine have that too?; 9/29/22, 12:33 PM
wildswan said...: If I were to distinguish the Ukraine from Afghanistan and Iraq I would say that Ukraine has chosen to be with the rest of Europe and this is something we can understand. The Ukraine is a country with a European Judeo-Christian background which was conquered by the Soviets and lived under an authoritarian regime till the Soviets fell. Since then, like the whole of Eastern Europe it has struggled with this history - does it want to be authoritarian with Russia or liberal with the rest of Europe? This is not the dynamic at work in Islamic countries. We just never knew what would seem like freedom there and what would seem like an attack on Islam. We couldn't lead them toward democracy even if, in a way, it's clear that they want it or something adjacent to it. But we can understand Ukrainian aspirations. So that's why this war isn't like those other wars.
Moreover, we equipped Afghanistan and it couldn't fight the Taliban; we equipped Ukraine and it is de-equipping Russia (see https://uawar.net/stats ); 9/29/22, 12:41 PM
TreeJoe said...: His summary of Biden under Obama and today is spot on....there's an old maxim about coincidences and connections, and at a certain point you don't need things spelled out to see there's a serious and concerning connection:

Biden was Obama's point for Ukraine policy
Biden's son hired by Ukraine gas firm connected to government to sit on board and be very lucratively paid, despite having no experience
Biden/Democrats go absolutely ballistic over Trump pushing Ukraine to investigate Biden potential corruption in Ukraine
Biden gets back in office
Russia launches war with Ukraine within 12 months
Biden very openly and actively arms and supports Ukraine with advanced weapons systems and intelligence capabilities
Russia threatens Nuclear war

And here we are.; 9/29/22, 12:54 PM
CJinPA said...: I'm still not sure why all of this is happening. I don't like not having a strong opinion about a war with possible nuclear ramifications, but here I am.; 9/29/22, 12:58 PM
Lance said...: Hang on, when he says "they say Putin is a madman", who is "they"? He talks about the "official narrative", who are those officials?; 9/29/22, 1:04 PM
Achilles said...: I remember sitting in the chow hall in Afghanistan watching Democrats say "No blood for oil."

Now we are watching Democrats say "No blood for Hunter's bribes."

Oh wait no we aren't.

Never mind then.

They are just shitheads.; 9/29/22, 1:10 PM
Inga said...: The difference between the Ukrainian people and the Russian people regarding this war. The Ukrainians want to keep their sovereignty and will fight to keep it. The Russian people don’t want Ukraine and are unwilling to die for Putin’s ambitions. The mobilization of the military says it all, Ukrainian people ran to serve their nation. The Russian people are running away from serving Putin. Putin isn’t Russia, the Russian people are Russia and the miles long lines of cars trying to escape Russia says so. My opinion based on observations only.; 9/29/22, 1:30 PM
Jaq said...: Ukraine elected Zelensky with 70% on a platform of peaceful coexistence with Russia. Obviously Ukraine is more than just Nazis, but the nazis were key players in the coup, providing the armed muscle that drove the elected government out in 2014, (we instantly recognized the new govt) and the nazis maintain a kill list, and is obviously running death squads, as we know from reporters and bloggers and that Russian guy's daughter, who were on the list, and ended up murdered.

The Nazis are in key roles, Zelensky roams the planet begging for money and weapons. He is not running that country, and in a free and fair election with a free press, this war would be over in a day, with DPR, LPR, and Crimea allowed to leave, and the civil war we stared, over.; 9/29/22, 1:36 PM
Achilles said...: DLNE said...

He is full of BS. Ukraine is a sovereign nation and it is not ok for Putin to threaten nuclear war in order to get Ukraine to give up its sovereignty. ... Also, why am I supposed to listen to this guy? I've never heard of him. Is he comedian or an MMA fighter or something?

Are the US funded bio weapons labs sovereign?

Are the Nordstream pipelines Sovereign?

Was Ukraine sovereign in 2014?

You people are literally supporting Nazi's. The Azov Battalion are actual Nazi's that describe themselves as Nazi's and act like Nazi's. They have killed thousands of Yanukovych supporters in eastern Ukraine since 2014. Are they Sovereign?; 9/29/22, 1:39 PM
Joe Bar said...: Some are asking about Dave Smith. He is one of the leaders of the Libertarian Party at the moment. He is also a comedian. But, so is Zelensky.; 9/29/22, 1:40 PM
The Vault Dweller said...: Something can be provoked but still unjustified. Putin and Russia have been meddling in the former soviet bloc countries since the fall of the Soviet Union. I also think it is ironic that Russia argues that it needs to De-Nazify Ukraine and is literally using a Rus-volk justification, in part, to invade Ukraine.; 9/29/22, 1:48 PM
NMObjectivist said...: Ann, thanks for posting this Dave Smith Joe Rogan video. The Ukraine NATO theory for the war has gotten far too little attention. I think it is a better view. What convinced me was the analogy to the Cuban missile crisis where we threatened to invade Cuba if the missiles weren’t removed. In that case Russia backed down. If Ukraine had joined NATO we could have put missiles right on the Russian border and that’s what Russia objected to.; 9/29/22, 1:52 PM
Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves said...: Inga- you are not understanding history here. Watch the video.; 9/29/22, 2:06 PM
Mutaman said...: This Dave Smith???

"Dave Smith (born April 20, 1982) is a New York based stand-up comedian and libertarian political commentator.[6][7][8] He has frequently appeared on Fox News Channel's Kennedy[9][10] and The Greg Gutfeld Show.[11][12][13]

wiki; 9/29/22, 2:13 PM
Mutaman said...: Blogger tim in vermont said...

"Obviously Ukraine is more than just Nazis, "

Have another vodka, Ivan.; 9/29/22, 2:15 PM
Quaestor said...: Jupiter writes, "In 1939, both the Americans and the British encouraged Poland to defy Hitler's attempts to negotiate a settlement of fairly strong territorial claims arising from the terms forced upon Germany at the end of WWI."

Malarky. Jupiter's claim amounts to ceding the Poles no agency, no national identity, no competent leadership, and no memory of recent history. (171 days, to be exact.) Poland needed no encouragement from the Allies (Why leave France out of the picture, Jupiter?) or the United States to reject Hitler's demand for Lebensraum at their expense. Perhaps Jupiter should be reminded of Hitler's demands regarding the Sudetenland which, according to National Socialist dogma, was unlawfully excised from the Reich by the "Versailles criminals", the identical claim he made against Czechoslovakia. The "Sudeten question" was settled by a conference of nearly every power in Europe, except the Czechs, who meekly acquiesced to the terms of Neville Chamberlain's piece of paper. 167 days later Hitler rolled his panzers into Prague.; 9/29/22, 2:18 PM
Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves said...: A lot of people are commenting without watching the video.

Why is that?; 9/29/22, 2:21 PM
The Vault Dweller said...: Blogger NMObjectivist said...
What convinced me was the analogy to the Cuban missile crisis where we threatened to invade Cuba if the missiles weren’t removed

The difference being that in the Cuban situation there were actual nuclear missiles in Cuba. There were no missiles in Ukraine. There were no immediate plans to put missiles in Ukraine. There weren't even current talks of Ukraine joining NATO. I fully acknowledge Russia has an interest in not having NATO spread. NATO is an anti-Russian organization, albeit for defense against Russia, but it is still anti-Russian. But other countries in Europe, especially the former Soviet Bloc countries have an interest in protecting their territorial integrity against Russian threats. IF we are talking about moral justification for actions, Russia's desire to avoid the spread of NATO doesn't outweigh the other country's desires to not be under threat from Russia. And speaking of NATO being on Russia's doorstep, because of Russia's invasion of Ukraine both Sweden and Finland have joined NATO. Both were previously neutral and Finland shares a border with Russia. It seems like Russia's actions were self-destructive in that regard at least if their primary goal was to avoid the spread of NATO.; 9/29/22, 2:28 PM
Quaestor said...: Dave Smith has an interesting argument, but it crashes in flames because Putin's own "justification" of his invasion given through his English language outlets like Russia Today was the rescue of Ukraine from Nazis. (Isn't that interesting? The entire platform of Biden's Democratic Party revolves around the pursuit and purge of Nazis. Those Nazis surely do get around.) You'd think that if Putin really was fighting NATO, he'd say so. If Russian trolls could rob Hillary Clinton of her God-given right to the White House, they could get that message out despite any censorship coming from the Biden Administration

Is it NATO or Nazis? Or is NATO just a bunch of Nazis? I'm confused.; 9/29/22, 2:34 PM
Michael K said...: Blogger Howard said...

It's hard to tell if you people are Quislings by proxy or are addled by Stockholm Syndrome.

Howard is all in on Biden's war. When was the last time a war began without a Democrat in office ?; 9/29/22, 2:36 PM
Greg The Class Traitor said...: Lurker21 said...
Even in the worst days of the Cold War we recognized that countries like Sweden, Finland, and Austria could remain neutral and serve as a buffer zone between East and West. Now, that's not enough, and even Ukraine had to join NATO. Why?

Gee, maybe because the USSR didn't invade Sweden, Finland, and Austria, but Putin's Russia did invade Ukraine in 2014?

Thus showing that the only actual options are "Ukraine enslaved by Putin, and the people oppressed and murdered, see Holodomor" and "Ukraine part of Nato".

So, do you not see this because you're a moron, or a Putin butt boy?; 9/29/22, 2:37 PM
Greg The Class Traitor said...: Joe Smith said...
Peace wasn't negotiated early because then there would be no skimming of $50B.

Peace wasn't negotiated early because the ONLY possible "peace" is Russia is forced to abide by the Budapest Accords that they signed in order to get Ukraine's nuclear weapons removed. Which is to say Russia is completely kicked out of all of Ukraine, including the Crimea.

Any agreement that leads to Russia getting rewarded for invading Ukraine guarantees that Russia will keep on invading Ukraine until it has it all.

And then invading Poland. And the Baltics. And any other country that has the misfortune to border the new expanded Russia.

Because Putin is an expansionist dictator, not a ruler looking for safe borders; 9/29/22, 2:42 PM
Greg The Class Traitor said...: NMObjectivist said...
If Ukraine had joined NATO we could have put missiles right on the Russian border and that’s what Russia objected to.

Oh, bullshit.

The Baltic States are right on Russia's border, they're part of Nato.

The difference between having "threatening missiles" in Ukraine and in Poland is, what, 30 seconds of flight time?

What Russia was objecting to was that if Ukraine joined Nato then Russia would be able to bully and enslave Ukraine

Nothing more; 9/29/22, 2:45 PM
Narayanan said...: Our foreign policy under the Biden administration is a money laundering racket.
=============
always was and always will be money laundering under any administration. 'legal' and not racket; 9/29/22, 2:58 PM
Shouting Thomas said...: I was immersed in Russian and Ukrainian culture during my undergraduate years at the U of IL. My first degree was in Russian lit, language and history. Lived for a year with a group of Ukrainian exchange students.

If you think any side of this quarrel is rational, and that this situation is controllable, I’ll have to disagree.

Obviously, I’ve always loved Russian and Ukrainian culture, art, music and literature. But, here’s the reality. Both cultures suffer from alcoholism on a scale that is impossible for an American to understand. My Ukrainian friends passed out from drinking every night. That’s more or less standard. I had to get the hell away from them to avoid flunking out of school.

The Ukraine war is a very volatile situation for this mostly unacknowledged reality. Everybody’s drunk, all the time. Probably stoned, too. It won’t take much provocation for everything to go to hell.; 9/29/22, 3:05 PM
Jaq said...: The oblasts in dispute were never under the control of the the government in Kiev, which took power through a violent coup. To pretend that they were occupied, when in reality they had simply rejected the coup, and could claim with equal justice that the other half of Ukraine was occupied, takes the kind of chutzpah that Nazis are famous for.

It’s easy to fall for their propaganda, but the more you think about it, the more sense partition makes, and the less sense Stalin’s border makes. Of course that’s off the table now.; 9/29/22, 3:05 PM
wildswan said...: "If Ukraine had joined NATO we could have put missiles right on the Russian border and that’s what Russia objected to."

No one was going to invade Russia. That was a real basis of peace - or it could have been. It still could be. Russia was and would be safer with nearby NATO missiles which no one had any intention of using and which nobody wanted to upgrade or pay for than with the whole of Europe angered and frightened by the thought of Russian invasions characterized by the methods of terrorism for the purposes of imperialism. In the Ukraine villages have been looted, women have been raped, regular people have been tortured. Russia out. No turning back for Ukraine. But still no one wants Russia; no one wants to invade. And Russian mobilization has shown clearly that real Russians don't want to invade either. Oddly, there's still a basis for true peace.; 9/29/22, 3:18 PM
Gusty Winds said...: It really seems like this entire conflict is about United States and Western European "green energy" proponents wanting control of pipelines and the distribution of good old fashioned fossil fuels.

Is that hypocrisy or irony?; 9/29/22, 3:30 PM
Jaq said...: “Putin is an expansionist dictator!” There is the domino theory again.

NATO is the expansionist military alliance, if you look at its history. If a bear lives in the woods, there are two options, keep clear of it and live in peace, or hunt it down and kill it. The US has chosen option 2. Except this bear has 6,000 nukes.; 9/29/22, 3:41 PM
Gusty Winds said...: Greg The Class Traitor said...
So, do you not see this because you're a moron, or a Putin butt boy?

Why are liberals so comfortable with using homophobic slurs?; 9/29/22, 3:41 PM
The Vault Dweller said...: Because Putin is an expansionist dictator, not a ruler looking for safe borders

I don't think he is expansionist in the traditional sense more like he is looking for suzerainity status over some of the former Soviet countries.; 9/29/22, 3:58 PM
wildswan said...: In 2007 Putin switched the Russian model for an army from conscript/cadre to small, professional. The US using a small professional Army had downed Iraq twice - once in three days, once in 21 days (of fighting). Putin wanted an Army like that. In 2007 he had the old style conscript/cadre Army where every man was drafted and had to serve two years and where in peacetime each regiment had its full complement of officers and NCOs and a small cadre of soldiers. In mobilization these regiments were then filled up with men who had recently had two years of training and were afterward designated for a particular regiment. That's why the Russian Army was so fearsome - it had millions ready all the time. But Saddam had a similar-type army, the sixth largest in the world, which the US smashed right through. Putin decided to change over to that model and he used that renovated model to invade Kiev. But Putin's new-model did not smash through to Kiev in 3 days or 21. The US it seems had new defensive tactics as well as offensive tactics and had taught them to Ukraine. So now the Russian new-model soldiers are pretty much chewed up so Putin is trying to revive the old-model by mobilizing Russia's formerly unlimited millions. The Soviets had 197 million in WWW II compared to the US with 134 million. But now, thanks to abortion, Russia only has 147 million people while the US alone has 334 million and Europe has millions also. In addition, the whole Russian mobilization machinery is gone. Men are drafted for one year and poorly trained and then that's it - no reserve training, no National Guard. When mobilized at present, they aren't assigned to regiments-in-being to fill in the cadres and to do jobs they trained for. They are just sent to Ukraine to depleted regiments of any kind - artillery, tanks, whatever, and expected to fight. So, "mobilizing 300,000" doesn't mean what it once would have.
Also the Russian are carefully not mobilizing and training near St Petersburg or Moscow. The few "regiments" raised there are issued uniforms and weapons and rushed from the area to be scattered among the fighting regiments in the line in Ukraine.; 9/29/22, 4:11 PM
Mutaman said...: Michael K said...

"When was the last time a war began without a Democrat in office ?"

Uh.... Iraq? Afghanistan?; 9/29/22, 4:12 PM
Quaestor said...: "What convinced me was the analogy to the Cuban missile crisis where we threatened to invade Cuba if the missiles weren’t removed."

As an addendum to the Vault Dweller's comment, may I point out that if the current war bears any analogous relationship to the Cuban Missile Crisis (a strained analogy at best) then the obvious solution is the same as in that case, i.e. no invasion in exchange for no nukes? Vlad could have had that deal any time, including now, this minute. Every NATO member state would agree instantly. The fact that such a reciprocal promise is not being offered by Moscow, is evidence that NATO is really immaterial to the situation as it currently stands. Putin's interest is his prestige, which he deems to be fatally endangered by Russia's military incompetence.; 9/29/22, 4:17 PM
Quaestor said...: Jupiter writes, "In 1939, both the Americans and the British encouraged Poland to defy Hitler's attempts to negotiate a settlement of fairly strong territorial claims arising from the terms forced upon Germany at the end of WWI."

And another thing, those "fairly strong territorial claims" date to thoroughly amoral partitions of Poland by the Kingdom of Prussia in 1772, 1793, and finally the Partition of 1795, which erased Poland from the map of Europe. The fact that Prussia had fellow thieves in Austria and Russia, doesn't mitigate the crime.; 9/29/22, 4:39 PM
Drago said...: Russia Collusion Truther and Hillary/FBI Hoax Dossier Dead Ender Inga: "The difference between the Ukrainian people and the Russian people regarding this war."

LOL

Inga the WI dolt is going to tell us all about what the Ukrainian and russki citizens really think.

Inga has clearly decided her mindreading "skills" need a larger playing field than simply reading the minds of Mueller and Weissman and Garland and all their henchmen.

Inga is taking her game to the national level and applying it to entire peoples, none of whom she could have found on a map just months ago.

Should be amusing.; 9/29/22, 4:39 PM
Drago said...: Hunter Biden's tax payer funded Hooker: "Inga- you are not understanding..."

Could have simply stopped right there.; 9/29/22, 4:41 PM
charis said...: Smith says he isn't justifying what Putin has done, but listening to him it sounds like he is, by saying it all has flowed from American provocation. Cause, effect. We're the cause, he says.; 9/29/22, 4:41 PM
effinayright said...: Quaestor said...

You'd think that if Putin really was fighting NATO, he'd say so.
****************

What induced coma have you been in not to notice that he HAS said so, many times?

https://www.brookings.edu/opinions/one-more-time-its-not-about-nato/

"Vladimir Putin and the Kremlin had a number of reasons for invading Ukraine in February and starting the largest military conflict in Europe since World War II. Putin sought to portray the pre-invasion crisis that Moscow created with Ukraine as a NATO-Russia dispute, but that framing does not stand up to serious scrutiny.

Putin tried hard. In late 2021, he complained of NATO’s “rising” military threat on Russia’s western borders and demanded legal guarantees for Russia, as if the country with the world’s largest nuclear arsenal and largest army in Europe needed such guarantees. Moscow proposed draft agreements with NATO and the United States that would have ruled out further NATO enlargement and required the Alliance to withdraw all military forces and infrastructure from members that had joined after 1997."; 9/29/22, 4:44 PM
Drago said...: Heywood Rice: "No mention of Paul Manafort..."

...because the russkis need polling data they could obtain easily by paying a consultant about $1,500?

Please, do go on. I have a feeling we are witnessing Heywood Rice deliver an updated version of the lefties/dems/neocons (but I repeat myself) underpants gnomes-public polling results "strategy".

Of course, it might be alot more fun to read the Heywood Rice "theory" as filtered thru Inga's patented mindreading schtick and have the whole thing summarized by gadfly and Howard!

That's a party just waiting to happen!

Btw, has LCOL "Bearclaw" Vindman accepted a commission with the Ukrainian forces yet?

No?; 9/29/22, 4:50 PM
effinayright said...: Achilles said:

You people are literally supporting Nazi's. The Azov Battalion are actual Nazi's that describe themselves as Nazi's and act like Nazi's. They have killed thousands of Yanukovych supporters in eastern Ukraine since 2014. Are they Sovereign?

Utterly moot. The Azov battalion is no longer an effective fighting force:

"On 17 May 2022, negotiations, which included mediators from the United Nations and the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC), managed to end the siege of Azovstal and establish a humanitarian corridor.[132] On 16 May, the Ukrainian General staff announced that the Mariupol garrison, including remnants of the Azov regiment stationed in Mariupol, had "fulfilled its combat mission" and that evacuations from the Azovstal steel factory had begun. Following orders from the high command, over the next few days Azov members in Azovstal, including the regiment's commander Denys Prokopenko, surrendered to Russian forces among ~2.5k Ukrainian soldiers from the plant, and were taken to the Russian-controlled territory of Donetsk People's Republic. The ICRC registered the surrendered troops as prisoners of war at the request of both sides, collecting information to contact their families.[133] Ukrainian and Russian sources make contradicting statements on the future of surrendered combatants, from pre-arranged exchange to Russian POWs with support of international humanitarian organizations, to criminal prosecution in Russia on war crime and terrorism charges.[134][135] As reported by the Wall Street Journal, according to Azov chief of staff on 18 May, Ukraine had proposed a prisoner swap of the most severely wounded prisoners, but Russia had countered "everyone or noone".[136]"

***

I'll leave to others to explain why those Nazis supported the Jewish president Zelensky.; 9/29/22, 4:51 PM
effinayright said...: My wife's an Estonian-American.

Estonians support the Ukrainians, especially now that Putin has pissed into his own Stolichnaya by being drawn into a protracted war. Doing so has reduced his armed forces to a fraction of what it was pre-invasion.

Their view is, it'll be years before Russia can think of launching another takeover of its former Soviet slave republics.; 9/29/22, 4:59 PM
Drago said...: Greg: "Thus showing that the only actual options are "Ukraine enslaved by Putin, and the people oppressed and murdered, see Holodomor" and "Ukraine part of Nato"."

NATO is a joke. A mirage.

There is only the US with a few "allies" who allow us the privilege of operating from our euro-cash transfer points known as bases.

So really, stop talking about NATO and other mythical alliances.

Its just us. Again. As planned by our grifting "betters".; 9/29/22, 4:59 PM
Unknown said...: This guy is as bright as your typical MMA fighter. His whole Montreal analogy doesn't even work. So Putin invaded because his once puppet state became more aligned with the west and this idiot is saying that is justified? Ann this is nit a post worthy of your blog. It's moronic.; 9/29/22, 5:20 PM
Drago said...: Heywood Rice: "It's your blog, why don't you have anything to say?"

Heywood Rice picking up where LLR ***** left off.

Makes sense, given they are both raging lefties. I wonder if they will share the same blog posting fate?

Only time will tell.; 9/29/22, 5:21 PM
deepelemblues said...: Making excuses for warmongering dictators like Putin is embarrassing. And no, I voted for Trump 4 times (2 primaries, 2 generals), I will do so again if he runs, mever have and never will vote for neocons or Democrats, miss me with that bullshit; 9/29/22, 5:23 PM
Rusty said...: Greg.
Exactly. Nazi is just a convenient hook. When the USSR ended and Ukraine and Russia agreed upon boarders It also agreed Ukraine was a sovereign nation. It makes no difference to the argument that Ukraine could be chock full o nazis. It isn't but nazi is the hook. If it were chock full of Mormons it would be the same. Is Ukraine full of corrupt bureaucrats. You bet your ass and they prefer western graft because it's more profitable. Putin is a little tyrant with big dreams of empire and anybody that tells you different is lying to you. He want's the old band back together with all oppression and fear that goes with that. But it isn't working because his ass kissing generals and oligarchs are incompetent and corrupt. Putin tells you it's all about NATO and you believe him. If he was afraid of NATO he wouldn't have invaded in the first place.
And yeah. I think Russia broke their own damn pipeline because that's just how incompetent they are. As an example look at Chernobyl. One fuck up after another.
Putin and Biden are made for each other.; 9/29/22, 5:40 PM
Rusty said...: Greg.
Exactly. Nazi is just a convenient hook. When the USSR ended and Ukraine and Russia agreed upon boarders It also agreed Ukraine was a sovereign nation. It makes no difference to the argument that Ukraine could be chock full o nazis. It isn't but nazi is the hook. If it were chock full of Mormons it would be the same. Is Ukraine full of corrupt bureaucrats. You bet your ass and they prefer western graft because it's more profitable. Putin is a little tyrant with big dreams of empire and anybody that tells you different is lying to you. He want's the old band back together with all oppression and fear that goes with that. But it isn't working because his ass kissing generals and oligarchs are incompetent and corrupt. Putin tells you it's all about NATO and you believe him. If he was afraid of NATO he wouldn't have invaded in the first place.
And yeah. I think Russia broke their own damn pipeline because that's just how incompetent they are. As an example look at Chernobyl. One fuck up after another.
Putin and Biden are made for each other.; 9/29/22, 5:43 PM
Howard said...: Politics makes strange bedbugs.; 9/29/22, 5:59 PM
Gusty Winds said...: The question here is why should the American public continue to support the expansion and US funding for NATO? I get it. It's for influence expansion. And money. And the control of fossil fuel distribution.

Aren't we sick of never ending wars? I am. Do we have to be enemies with Russia forever?

How about make a deal and let ALL the pipelines flow freely.

Think about how fucked up it is that the American and Western European left are at the same time: 1) Preaching and taking stupid actions to eliminate the use of fossil fuels and 2) prolonging and risking war escalation over pipeline distribution of fossil fuels. Natural gas keeps the world warm. Fossil fuels feed the world.

The American and European middle class and poor are paying out the ass for this at the pump, heating bills, electric bills...the energy costs drive inflation everywhere. All this to expand NATO?? A Cold War alliance. Really?; 9/29/22, 6:29 PM
Maynard said...: The Ukrainians want to keep their sovereignty and will fight to keep it. The Russian people don’t want Ukraine and are unwilling to die for Putin’s ambitions. The mobilization of the military says it all, Ukrainian people ran to serve their nation. The Russian people are running away from serving Putin. Putin isn’t Russia, the Russian people are Russia and the miles long lines of cars trying to escape Russia says so. My opinion based on observations only.

Kamala, is that you?

You can put all sorts of dressing on it, but it is still word salad.; 9/29/22, 6:35 PM
Drago said...: Chris: "Smith says he isn't justifying what Putin has done, but listening to him it sounds like he is,..."

The point is to attempt to see the world as your enemies/competitors/opponents do so you can develop effective strategies for decision-making and engagement.

It's not complicated.

The russkis very much see what NATO has done as an encroachment every bit as serious as we saw the russkis in Cuba. It doesn't matter if you think they are full of crap. They believe that. It doesn't mean you have to alter your plans. But knowing that helps you predict what any escalatory step on our part might entail in terms of a response and/or what to expect next from the russkis.

And now, of course, we are bragging and blustering about about putting delivery systems that can handle nukes directly on the russkis borders. Something tells me there are worse hardliners than Putin waiting in the wings so all this talk about getting rid of Putin, after what we did with Gaddafi, isn't going to give Vlad any warm and fuzzies.

Do you think Vlad might launch a few nukes to try and avoid having weapons shoved up his arse into his intestines?

Meanwhile, the ChiComs just keep ChiCom-ing along.

As intended by our "elites" who sold us out long ago.; 9/29/22, 6:48 PM
Dr Weevil said...: Rusty (5:40pm):
"If it were chock full of Mormons it would be the same."

I don't think it's full of Mormons, but . . . a couple of days ago I was trying to follow the fighting around Lyman, and saw an odd symbol in the town of Zakitne, east of Lyman: a little man blowing a trumpet, labeled 'Tserva v Zakitnomu', which presumably means "[Something or other] of Zakitne". I clicked on it and the English label was "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints". I hope the congregation is safe. I'm not sure they were ever on the Russian side of the front line, but they were and are very close. I'm guessing Ukrainians belonging to a sect founded in the U.S. would be hated even more than other Ukrainians by the Russian butchers.; 9/29/22, 7:08 PM
readering said...: Big subject. One small point. Trump wasn't pressuring Zelensky to investigate Biden. He was pressuring Zelensky to announce that he was going to investigate Biden. An investigation wouldn't do Trump any good in the time frame of the 2016 election. But credit Trump with recognizing who was his most formidable potential Democratic opponent. And credit Zelensky for refusing,; 9/29/22, 7:23 PM
Che Dolf said...: Rusty said... It makes no difference to the argument that Ukraine could be chock full o nazis. It isn't but nazi is the hook. If it were chock full of Mormons it would be the same.

Yes, that's right, Ukraine isn't "chock full" of nazis. But eastern Ukraine, where the Azov Battalion was organized, has a large number of neo-nazis, and they are predominantly the people who've been fighting ethnic Russians in that region who reject the post-Yanukovych regime as illegitimate. If they were Mormons killing Russians, it would be the same.; 9/29/22, 7:27 PM
Lurker21 said...: We did what we could to depose an elected Ukrainian government. We've been pushing for Ukraine to enter NATO. That's a big reason why this war is going on. We discouraged efforts to resolve the disputes between Russia and Ukraine peacefully through negotiations. We (our government) aren't the hero or a simple bystander in this conflict.

Ukraine has chosen to be with the rest of Europe and this is something we can understand. The Ukraine is a country with a European Judeo-Christian background which was conquered by the Soviets and lived under an authoritarian regime till the Soviets fell.

But the Eastern part of Ukraine (and some of the Southern parts) felt closer to Russia (another country with a Judeo-Christian background), and the country as a whole (like other parts of Eastern Europe) is at least a little ambivalent about modern Western European (and North American) ways. I know that Ukraine suffered terribly in the Holodomor, but the idea of Communist, freedom-hating Russia and Western freedom-loving Ukraine oversimplifies the history of the region somewhat.; 9/29/22, 7:38 PM
MadisonMan said...: My opinion based on observations only.
More likely based on someone else's probably biased reporting, not your observations at all. Is there a compelling reason to believe a reporter, other than thinking it aligns with what you think might have happened?; 9/29/22, 7:42 PM
Inga said...: “And Russian mobilization has shown clearly that real Russians don't want to invade either. Oddly, there's still a basis for true peace.”

Wildswan must be “reading the Russian people’s mind” too, eh Drago? Or maybe anyone ( normal) with eyes saw the mass exodus of Russian men escaping military service to neighboring countries that will take them in.; 9/29/22, 7:44 PM
Daniel12 said...: Probably a bit late to this, but having listened to the whole thing, I'm just sort of stunned that this is a thing.

This guy Dan Smith has only ever -- ever -- read stuff, a lot of it from Matt Taibbi clearly. Ok so have Matt Taibbi on again! Or have someone who's been in the thick of actual decision making or part of the movements on the ground. Instead this guy presents himself as knowing the REAL truth but he's just reiterating what others have written. So I'm supposed to blindly trust whoever he reads, and then blindly trust him to interpret what they've written?

Meanwhile Joe Rogan just goes ,"huh" and "now way" or whatever. So it's just a guy spouting so so so many words, which are his random take on some stuff he read on the internet!

I mean, whatever conspiracy theories, there were millions on the streets in Ukraine in 2014. Seriously, Obama orchestrated that?? Come on, even if you hate him it's not because you think he was a Machiavellian hawk attempting to have a war with Putin over Ukraine, two years after he mocked Romney about Russia in the debate.

Tell me what actual information this guy has about who offered or declined what deal in negotiations before and right after the start of the war.

Then there's the whole Hunter Biden Burisma Trump Joe Biden analysis. All of those things happened! No argument about a single thing. But what do they add up to? Joe Biden indirectly got bribes from Burisma, which was connected to the old regime, Trump did his Ukraine thing then gave advanced weaponry to Ukraine, Joe Biden is now using Ukraine to attack Russia, etc etc etc. Smith actually falters when he gets to the end of this, like he realizes all these things with Obama and Biden and Trump don't actually go together, and he draws no conclusion so you know he knows.

Sometimes it's just two guys shooting the shit with each other.; 9/29/22, 7:45 PM
Lance said...: Smith asserts that there was a "deal", that Russia would withdraw from Ukraine in exchange for Donbas autonomy and Ukraine promising to not join NATO. He says it's all over the internet, but provides no source. That deal doesn't match anything I've seen reported. And in fact there have been many such "tentative" deals reported, but all have been rejected by either Ukraine or Russia.

Smith also asserts that there are no negotiations going on. How does he know that? We know there were back-door negotiations all through WW2 that weren't announced at the time. Likewise during the Korean and Vietnam wars. Why is he so certain there are no negotiations now?

He asserts that there was a promise at some point that "Nato would not expand one inch to the east."

That never happened, no one promised that. The only related promise was that NATO would not base weapons in the former East Germany.; 9/29/22, 7:47 PM
Mikey NTH said...: Russian Empire 3.0

And as the Germans could say "Three Reichs and you are out."; 9/29/22, 7:47 PM
Inga said...: “At 26, I do not want to be carried home in a zinc-lined (coffin) or stain (my) hands with somebody’s blood because of the war of one person that wants to build an empire,” he told The Associated Press, asking that his last name not be used because he feared retaliation from Russia.

He was one of over 194,000 Russian nationals who have fled to neighboring Georgia, Kazakhstan and Finland — most often by car, bicycle or on foot — in the week since President Vladimir Putin announced a partial mobilization of reservists.; 9/29/22, 7:51 PM
Jaq said...: “The Russians blew it up because they are stupid.”

Well, at least you admit that the loss of the pipeline hurts Russia.; 9/29/22, 8:05 PM
Michael said...: Just to consider:

Under its feet, UKR has the 4th richest reserve of natural resources. This includes several strategically vital minerals. In other words,a whole bunch of people are going to make a fuckton of $$$ doing biz in UKR

Not saying profit is our main motivation for risking a nuclear cataclysm, but the influence of business considerations is greater than zero.; 9/29/22, 8:14 PM
Left Bank of the Charles said...: “Did you listen to Smith?”

I did listen to Dave “not that I am justifying what Putin did” Smith. What’s your point? What was his point?

Is your/his point that this war can and should be brought to an end by a peace treaty? Does Russia do peace treaties? But look at it from Ukraine’s side. What is Putin willing to offer Ukraine and it’s allies to accept Russia’s annexation of Crimea and the Donbas? He could offer to let Ukraine join NATO and the European Union if Ukraine wants. He could offer to demilitarize Crimea and the Donbas. He could offer reparations.

Is your/his point that the West should appease Putin and let him have what he wants in Ukraine? Why? Where does that end? Dave Smith seems to think Poland joining NATO was a provocation. Do we let Putin have the Baltic countries and Poland too?

Someone should fill me in on the deal Dave Smith alludes to being made at the end of the Cold War concerning the expansion of NATO. I don’t remember anything like that being ratified by the U.S. Senate.; 9/29/22, 8:20 PM
Mikey NTH said...: The past several months show clearly that the Ukrainians do not want to be part of a new Russian Empire.

Sometimes things in this world have nothing to do with US domestic politics.

And any expansion of NATO is at the request of an applying nation. That so many former Russian/Soviet satellites have applied indicates where they see their interests and it isn't going back under the Russian boot.

As to Ukraine, no one fights like they are for the WEF or Biden corruption or whatever. They fight like that for their home and country.; 9/29/22, 8:21 PM
Bob Boyd said...: @wildswan

In 2007 Putin switched the Russian model for an army from conscript/cadre to small, professional.

Does that sound like a man who plans to invade Europe?

I would say that Ukraine has chosen to be with the rest of Europe and this is something we can understand.
The Ukrainian people support their government in this war.

But the Ukrainian people aren't united in these things. When this war started it was Ukrainians shooting at one another.
Eastern provinces wanted greater independence from Kiev. Not total independence, they still wanted to be part of Ukraine, but greater independence. They are ethnic Russians who speak Russian, not Ukrainian. After the CIA backed coup in 2014, the corruptocrat new government in Kiev cracked down on these resource rich provinces. They even outlawed their Russian language. The Ukrainians are not a united people.
We came in on one side and Putin came in on the other. Putin started supporting the eastern provinces militarily and we started supporting our puppet government in Kiev militarily.
Our leaders, apparently gambled that we could quickly and easily take control of Ukraine and it's resources by regime change and they could cut a fat hog. Naturally, it didn't work out that way. The whole situation inside Ukraine kept escalating. Shockingly, Putin decided he gets a vote.
The media was happy to criticize Bush's regime change ops when they went pear-shaped, but not so much when Obama's did. They won't talk about that at all. Obama's legacy must be protected. Now we have Biden and things continue to escalate.
Do you trust our leaders to be able to handle this situation and not fuck it up? If so, I would love to hear why. It might make me feel better.
Having said all that, I will also say, I always like reading your comments.; 9/29/22, 8:26 PM
cubanbob said...: I really don't get the ant-NATO and pro-Putin positions from otherwise sensible commenters here. NATO is, was and will always be a defensive organization. No one here or elsewhere has ever made a rational explanation of how an alliance that was and is organized for a collective defense is going to organize itself for a collective offensive. Let's be clear NATO was founded on the premise of keeping the German's down, the Russian's out and the American's in and that is still a really good idea both then and now.

Putin didn't attack Ukraine while Trump was president simply because he thought he couldn't cow Trump nor buy him like he did with Obama and Biden. Obama and Biden were running mob style protection rackets and getting paid by both Ukrainians and Russians.

With Trump out, both sides figured they were back to paying off the mob when it came to the US. Biden's handlers sent aid to Ukraine to keep the Russians out of NATO and disclosing the dirt. Every single ex Soviet European state is capable of developing nuclear weapons and the means to deliver them. That is almost an absolute certainty to occur if the position of a lot of the otherwise sensible commenters here were to be implemented. And those weapons aren't going to be solely for deterring the Russians. All Europeans hate each other. They all at one point have fought each other or allied with some to fight others and at times have allied with their former enemies to fight their former friends. Twice in the last century we have seen what Europeans and Russians are capable of doing and what is keeping it from happening again is NATO with us keeping the unruly lads from getting out of hand.

The only indisputable fact is that Russian recognized the Ukrainian borders in 1992 and guaranteed it would not aggress against Ukraine and Ukraine in return would eliminate the nukes they inherited from the Soviet Union. By the way the US also signed on to that. Blame Bill Clinton for that if you want.

The borders and oppressed ethnic business has always been a part of Europe. The Russians in Crimea are largely replacing the Crimean Tatars expelled out by both the Tzars and the Red Tzars.Which borders then to go back to? 1919 borders? 19th century borders? Borders prior to the 19th century? Stalin's 1945 borders? A mix of the various borders throughout the various centuries?

Then there is all this talk about Nazis. Which Nazis? The Azov Nazis? The Russian Wagner Group Nazis? Neo Nazi skinheads in Europe both east and west and in Russia? Someone above thread noted that Ukrainians were vicious anti-Semites. No kidding. Which Eastern Europeans at some point weren't? Which Western Europeans at some point weren't?; 9/29/22, 8:49 PM
cubanbob said...: Then there is the CIA bogeyman argument that the CIA toppled the "legitimate" Putin puppet when it was in fact hundreds of thousand protestors who pushed the crook out. The CIA cannot ever get the number of people who were truly angry against the Russian lap dog organized to form a coup. Without real popular support it just would not happen. The CIA, neocon, neo zionist, globohomo idiocy is just that, idiocy. We are not going to send troops to the Ukraine. Weapons yes, troops no. Knocking the Russians down a peg or two is a good idea for us especially since it was Putin whose ambition and autocratic narcissism is why this war is happening. Perhaps the lesson won't be lost on Xi who is exhibiting the same sort of mania Putin has. Perhaps Xi might be starting to realize just how valuable the US can be keeping the lads in Asia calm. Surely he knows all Asians hate the Chinese and the Japanese when not hating each other. Does Xi want to encourage the other Asians to develop nuclear weapons and the means to deliver them? South Korea and Japan could do it in a heartbeat. Taiwan slightly slower. India already has them and so does Pakistan. The others over time can for the most part do it as well. China's military is to a large degree Soviet inspired and most of their weapons derivatives of Soviet weapons which are not doing to well against NATO weaponry and tactics.

The Democrat Party of today is a scourge that the country needs to rid itself of but aiding Ukraine isn't the reason to do so.; 9/29/22, 8:50 PM
LA_Bob said...: Here's a tweet with a clip from an interview with Condoleeza Rice in 2016. She clearly states the goal is to get Western Europe off of Russian and Ukrainian pipelines and onto American gas (and pipelines). So is this why we've been so eager to kick Russia around since the end of the Cold War?

A new Cold War for oil and gas? Complete with pipeline sabotage? Against a nuclear nation? Gee, sounds spiffy to me!

https://twitter.com/geisteslicht/status/1574996132643545089; 9/29/22, 8:50 PM
LA_Bob said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 9/29/22, 8:54 PM
LA_Bob said...: Shouting Thomas said, "If you think any side of this quarrel is rational, and that this situation is controllable, I’ll have to disagree."

I don't have your cred with regard to Russian / Ukrainian culture, art, and music, but from my reading on the recent history, your comment is probably all too accurate.; 9/29/22, 9:03 PM
Inga said...: “Is there a compelling reason to believe a reporter, other than thinking it aligns with what you think might have happened?”

Is there a compelling reason to believe Dave Smith?; 9/29/22, 9:03 PM
Mutaman said...: Gusty Winds said...

Greg The Class Traitor said...
So, do you not see this because you're a moron, or a Putin butt boy?

"Why are liberals so comfortable with using homophobic slurs? "

Hate to break it to you Sparky but Greg The Class Traitor is no liberal.; 9/29/22, 9:09 PM
Rusty said...: tim in vermont said...
"“The Russians blew it up because they are stupid.”

Well, at least you admit that the loss of the pipeline hurts Russia."
At this point who knows. But if nobody in Europe is buying their gas and they were going to turn off the flow anyway what better way to create an incident and blame your enemy du jour. But my money is still on Russian incompetence.; 9/29/22, 9:11 PM
ccscientist said...: Russia started nibbling at Ukraine 14 years ago, giving them plenty of warning. Under Stalin, millions died of starvation in Ukraine, giving them plenty of motivation to not become part of russia.; 9/29/22, 9:14 PM
Drago said...: cubanbob: "We are not going to send troops to the Ukraine."

Our mercs are already there. Who do you think was leading the recent offensive.

The Ukes need more cash to pay for our "off the books" soldiers. Maintenance guys too probably as the Ukes dont have the training to properly operate and maintain the equipment we are sending.

So its our intel, our leadership contractors, our mercs and our equipment.

Gee, thanks NATO "allies"!; 9/29/22, 9:26 PM
Mutaman said...: Unknown said...

"This guy is as bright as your typical MMA fighter. His whole Montreal analogy doesn't even work. So Putin invaded because his once puppet state became more aligned with the west and this idiot is saying that is justified? Ann this is nit a post worthy of your blog. It's moronic."

Well at least Althouse stopped linking to Scott Adams so there is that. I suspect this link is Mead's doing.; 9/29/22, 9:27 PM
Drago said...: cubanbob: "I really don't get the ant-NATO and pro-Putin positions from otherwise sensible commenters here."

What a load of BS.

So, now its officially a "pro-Putin" position to note that our NATO "allies" dont pay their agreed upon rates, dont maintain military staffing as required, dont keep their equipment in working order (have you seen the stats on the German aircraft and fleet readiness?), divert our cash infusions for their own infrastructure projects, etc.

Gee, sorry cubanbob. I guess that makes me a Putin crony.

I'll be sure to try and start kissing the european's derriers as effectively as you fellas.

And by all means I wont try and prioritize the real threat, the ChiComs. Goodness knows you guys dont like that at all.

Lets all work together to keep that Ukraine grift going. It will make Max Boot and Bill Kristol and Liz Cheney proud of us.; 9/29/22, 9:35 PM
Mutaman said...: cubanbob
"Putin didn't attack Ukraine while Trump was president simply because he thought he couldn't cow Trump nor buy him like he did with Obama and Biden"

Are we talking about the same Trump who As Russia’s Vladimir Putin began his invasion of Ukraine described the Russian leader’s military offensive as “genius” and “very savvy.” Referring to Putin declaring portions of Ukraine as independent, Trump said it was a “wonderful” strategy.

The former U.S. president even went so far as to endorse the Kremlin’s rhetoric, saying Putin would “be a peacekeeper,” adding, “They’re gonna keep peace all right.”

And do I really need to recite the lengthy laundry list of statements by Trump sucking up to Putin over the years?; 9/29/22, 9:38 PM
Dr Weevil said...: LA_Bob (8:50):
Is there supposed to be something sinister about Condoleezza (note: 2 Z's) Rice wanting "to get Western Europe off of Russian and Ukrainian pipelines and onto American gas (and pipelines)"? Seems to me that would be a lot like helping a friend get out from under a huge credit card debt at 26%, or a revolving series of payday loans at even higher interest, or a debt to Fat Tony who will break his legs if he doesn't pay his gigantic interest payment on time - some kind of debt he has no hope of ever paying off. Helping someone in such a situation to get his debt transferred to some kind of bank loan at a reasonable interest rate that he could actually pay down to zero over not too many years would be the kind of thing a true friend would do. Convincing countries with insufficient gas and oil of their own to buy from us, who are not trying to destroy their economy, as Putin is doing right now, seems to be the right thing to do.; 9/29/22, 9:44 PM
Drago said...: Russia Collusion Truther and Hillary/FBI Hoax Dossier Dead Ender Inga: "Or maybe anyone ( normal) with eyes saw the mass exodus of Russian men escaping military service to neighboring countries that will take them in."

Ukraine men ordered to stay and fight Russia as others flee

Ooh shocker Inga. Eastern european men aren't thrilled serving in war under corrupt governments.

Come on mindreader. Dont you have any real revelations?

Why did Ukraine pass laws that forbid men between 18 and 60 from fleeing the country? Why was that necessary? What do those men know that you dont? Besides everything of course.; 9/29/22, 9:48 PM
effinayright said...: Michael said...
Just to consider:

Under its feet, UKR has the 4th richest reserve of natural resources. This includes several strategically vital minerals. In other words,a whole bunch of people are going to make a fuckton of $$$ doing biz in UKR

Not saying profit is our main motivation for risking a nuclear cataclysm, but the influence of business considerations is greater than zero.
*******************

Before this all started, Russia had the GDP of Italy. It abounds with lawless oligarchs who plunder resources at will. Why would they not be exploiting their resources?

Can you explain why NO ARMY OF OCCUPATION has ever been able to successfully commander a national economy anywhere, for a long, long time? Not even the USSR was able to do so--if they had been able to, why did their economy and empire collapse?; 9/30/22, 12:18 AM
deepelemblues said...: Surprise surprise when Putin's puppet got kicked out of the presidency, suddenly Kiev was oppressing the poor people of Donbas and they desperately wanted autonomy and to be protected by Moscow. How very convenient for Vlad that this self-determination sprang up like Athena from the head of Zeus just when Russia was facing the prospect of losing its influence in Ukraine.

The pro-Russian movement in Donbas is a creation of the FSB, the Kremlin has lots of experience astroturfing such things from the good old Soviet days.; 9/30/22, 12:45 AM
tim maguire said...: I made it 2:47. When he started ranting about bin Laden, I filed him under “life’s too short.”; 9/30/22, 4:16 AM
NotWhoIUsedtoBe said...: This analysis ignores Ukrainian sovereignty and right of national self-determination. If what the Russian dictator wants is legitimate, what about what the Ukrainians want? The Ukraine government seems more legitimate than the Russian at this point.; 9/30/22, 4:44 AM
BUMBLE BEE said...: FWIW the old lady who cuts my hair, (what's left of it), is from Ukraine. In conversation she said "I'm Russian Jew, but now an American citizen". I'm guessing a lot of Ukrainians see themselves as Russian ancestry. The Azov battalions haven't been discussed yet.; 9/30/22, 5:34 AM
BUMBLE BEE said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 9/30/22, 5:34 AM
BUMBLE BEE said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 9/30/22, 5:34 AM
BUMBLE BEE said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 9/30/22, 5:35 AM
BUMBLE BEE said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 9/30/22, 5:35 AM
BUMBLE BEE said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 9/30/22, 5:35 AM
Bob Boyd said...: There were serious proposals under the Trump administration about phasing out NATO as obsolete and Shazam! Suddenly NATO has it's old raison d'etre back. Imagine that.

The War On Terror is winding down and suddenly the Anti-terror war machine finds a rich new motherload of terrorists to go after and guess what? It's you and me!; 9/30/22, 6:57 AM
Greg The Class Traitor said...: tim in vermont said...
The oblasts in dispute were never under the control of the the government in Kiev, which took power through a violent coup.

That would be the "violent coup" where the security services under the control of the Russian toady tried to murder the protesters into submission, but they wouldn't give up, so the toady bugged out?

You are pathetic scum

To pretend that they were occupied, when in reality they had simply rejected the coup, and could claim with equal justice that the other half of Ukraine was occupied, takes the kind of chutzpah that Nazis are famous for.

Gee, you sound like NetChoice in the Texas anti censorship case. "Everyone we hate is a Nazi who must be suppressed!"

Reality check: Ukraine's border were defined in 1994 during the Budapest Accords, signed by Russia. Anyone who doesn't want to live in Ukraine is welcome to move

What they're never welcome to do is to try to enslave their neighbors by putting them under Russian control; 9/30/22, 3:46 PM
Greg The Class Traitor said...: Achilles said...
Was Ukraine sovereign in 2014?
It was once they got rid of the Putin toady who was using extra-legal means to try to force Ukraine under complete Russian domination

You people are literally supporting Nazi's

Wow, when do you get your job at Google / Twitter / Facebook censoring all conservatives because we're all "Nazis"?

The head of Russia's Wagner Group has Nazi tattoos. So I guess that makes the Russians all Nazis, too.

News flash: nothing says "I'm a fucking lunatic" like saying that these horrible things are necessary because "the other side are Nazis".; 9/30/22, 3:51 PM
Greg The Class Traitor said...: Hunter Biden's tax payer funded Hooker said...
A lot of people are commenting without watching the video.

I almost never watch video. It's generally the most worthless possible way to share useful information.

If you're not willing to give me text I can read (about 3x as fast as you can talk), copy, etc, then I strongly doubt you have anything of value to offer

Life's too short to watch or listen to bloviating talking heads; 9/30/22, 3:54 PM
Greg The Class Traitor said...: tim in vermont said...
“Putin is an expansionist dictator!” There is the domino theory again.

NATO is the expansionist military alliance, if you look at its history. If a bear lives in the woods, there are two options, keep clear of it and live in peace, or hunt it down and kill it. The US has chosen option 2. Except this bear has 6,000 nukes.

Wow, were you a USSR apologist, too?

NATO is only "expansionist" in that it offers to let countries join that want to join.

If you see no difference between the NATO kind of "expansion" and the Russia / USSR / Warsaw Pact kind, you're a complete fucking moron; 9/30/22, 3:57 PM
Greg The Class Traitor said...: The Vault Dweller said...
Me: Because Putin is an expansionist dictator, not a ruler looking for safe borders

I don't think he is expansionist in the traditional sense more like he is looking for suzerainity status over some of the former Soviet countries.

If by "some", you mean "all", plus all of the Warsaw Pact, plus everything the Warsaw Pact wanted to conquer, then you would be correct.

But if you think there's anything Putin wouldn't take if he thought he could get away with it, you're entirely incorrect; 9/30/22, 3:59 PM
Greg The Class Traitor said...: effinayright said...
https://www.brookings.edu/opinions/one-more-time-its-not-about-nato/

"Vladimir Putin and the Kremlin had a number of reasons for invading Ukraine in February and starting the largest military conflict in Europe since World War II. Putin sought to portray the pre-invasion crisis that Moscow created with Ukraine as a NATO-Russia dispute, but that framing does not stand up to serious scrutiny.

Putin tried hard. In late 2021, he complained of NATO’s “rising” military threat on Russia’s western borders and demanded legal guarantees for Russia, as if the country with the world’s largest nuclear arsenal and largest army in Europe needed such guarantees. Moscow proposed draft agreements with NATO and the United States that would have ruled out further NATO enlargement and required the Alliance to withdraw all military forces and infrastructure from members that had joined after 1997."

IOW, he proposed that countries be left naked so that Russia could invade them at a later date.

No fucking way

The only "threat" NATO poses to Russia is that Russia loses its ability to bully those under NATO's protection. That Putin considers this to be a problem is 100% justification for expanding NATO; 9/30/22, 4:05 PM
Greg The Class Traitor said...: Gusty Winds said...
The question here is why should the American public continue to support the expansion and US funding for NATO? I get it. It's for influence expansion. And money. And the control of fossil fuel distribution.

Aren't we sick of never ending wars? I am. Do we have to be enemies with Russia forever?

Putin is the one who chose to make Russia the enemy of the US, so ask him.

Why should we support NATO expansion? Because Russia is an evil shithole of a country, and always has been. So keeping it from conquering neighbors, and using the resources gained to attack and conquer the new neighbors is a lot cheaper than letting it get bg enough to attack us directly.

You dont' want endless wars? Then you dont' want Russia able to attack its neighbors; 9/30/22, 4:16 PM
Greg The Class Traitor said...: Drago said...
Chris: "Smith says he isn't justifying what Putin has done, but listening to him it sounds like he is,..."

The point is to attempt to see the world as your enemies/competitors/opponents do so you can develop effective strategies for decision-making and engagement.

It's not complicated.

Indeed, it's not complicated. Understanding evil is entirely different from justifying or excusing it.

Sounds like Smith is doing the latter.
As you most certainly are

The russkis very much see what NATO has done as an encroachment every bit as serious as we saw the russkis in Cuba.

The difference is that it's no longer 1960, and having NATO closer to Russia doesn't in any way make it a bigger threat.

All it does it take away Russia's ability to bully its neighbors.

And if you're desperate to excuse that bullying, it'e because you are a worthless piece of shit

And now, of course, we are bragging and blustering about about putting delivery systems that can handle nukes directly on the russkis borders.
You ever heard of nuclear subs? Nuclear cruise missiles?

What we would put on Russia's borders is ABM systems that might give us a better chance to stopping the Russians from nuking us.

If they have a problem with that, then they can go fuck themselves.

And so can anyone else who has a problem with that,

Something tells me there are worse hardliners than Putin waiting in the wings so all this talk about getting rid of Putin, after what we did with Gaddafi, isn't going to give Vlad any warm and fuzzies.

Then you really are a moron. What have they got to be "hardline" about? bringing back the USSR? Conquering all the "breakaway" "republics"?
Being even more corrupt than Putin?

Do you think Vlad might launch a few nukes to try and avoid having weapons shoved up his arse into his intestines?

Do you think that Vlad attempting to get the rest of the country killed by launching nukes is NOT going to get weapons shoved up his arse into his intestines?

Meanwhile, the ChiComs just keep ChiCom-ing along.

Yep. Backing Vlad just like you are.

Have you stopped to notice that between shouting "Nazis!" and excusing Vlad's behavior, you're pretty much acting just like the American Left?; 9/30/22, 4:25 PM
Greg The Class Traitor said...: Lurker21 said...
We did what we could to depose an elected Ukrainian government. We've been pushing for Ukraine to enter NATO. That's a big reason why this war is going on. We discouraged efforts to resolve the disputes between Russia and Ukraine peacefully through negotiations. We (our government) aren't the hero or a simple bystander in this conflict.

1: The Ukrainian people drove out a Putin toady after he illegally and unilaterally tried to force Ukraine under Russia, in contradiction to the elected Ukrainian Parliament.
2: Ukraine has been pushing for Ukraine to enter NATO, because they don't want to be enslaved by Russia again
3: The Budapest Accords established Ukraine's borders. The ONLY legitimate resolution is that Russia GTFO of Ukraine

But the Eastern part of Ukraine (and some of the Southern parts) felt closer to Russia (another country with a Judeo-Christian background)
Bzzt, thank you for playing, but no. Russia moved Russian colonists into Ukraine to try to help keep Ukraine more fully conquered. They did the same to the Baltic States. in every case, the correct response is:
You can be a Ukrainian (Estonian, whatever), or you can be a Russian. But if you're going to be a Russian you can move your worthless slave ass back to Russia, because you dont' get to help Putin enslave your neighbors.

I know that Ukraine suffered terribly in the Holodomor, but the idea of Communist, freedom-hating Russia and Western freedom-loving Ukraine oversimplifies the history of the region somewhat.

Russia is, and always has been, a tyrannical shithole of a country. No sane person wants to be part of it.

That doesn't oversimplify anything. It doesn't matter whether they are Czarist, Communist, or Putinist, they're always vile, and everyone who wants to be free of them is always in the right.; 9/30/22, 4:34 PM
Greg The Class Traitor said...: Bob Boyd said...
But the Ukrainian people aren't united in these things. When this war started it was Ukrainians shooting at one another.
Bullshit. it was a purely Russian invasion
The "Ukrainian Russian partisans" are poorly armed and poorly trained death fodder, because Russia expected to take over, and didn't want to have a bunch of people there who would be able to fight against the Russians after they fully conquered the place.

Eastern provinces wanted greater independence from Kiev. Not total independence, they still wanted to be part of Ukraine, but greater independence.

And you know this because ...?

They are ethnic Russians who speak Russian, not Ukrainian. After the CIA backed coup in 2014
Oh wow, it's lunatic time.

Yeah, the Ukrainian Parliament massively voted to become part of the EU, and all those protesters came out and protested even while the security services were beating and killing them, because the CIA told them too

the corruptocrat new government in Kiev cracked down on these resource rich provinces. They even outlawed their Russian language.

I'm curious, what would your response be to the US gov't trying to drive down use of Spanish in the US?

Why is it bad when the Ukrainian gov't does the same?

The question is really quite simple: Are you a Russian, or a Ukrainian?

If you're a Russian, then move there

The Ukrainians are not a united people.

Which sounds like a strong justification for any sane Ukrainian gov't trying to drive Russian out of public life; 9/30/22, 4:43 PM
Greg The Class Traitor said...: Drago said...
cubanbob: "I really don't get the ant-NATO and pro-Putin positions from otherwise sensible commenters here."

What a load of BS.

So, now its officially a "pro-Putin" position to note that our NATO "allies" dont pay their agreed upon rates, dont maintain military staffing as required, dont keep their equipment in working order (have you seen the stats on the German aircraft and fleet readiness?), divert our cash infusions for their own infrastructure projects, etc.

WTF does ANY of that have to do with excusing Putin's invasion of Ukraine, or opposing supporting the Ukrainians fighting Russia?

And by all means I wont try and prioritize the real threat, the ChiComs.

Watching Russia completely lose in Ukraine is about the most pro-Taiwan / anti-ChiCom thing that's happened this century.

Anyone who is anti-ChiCom, and wants them to not invade Taiwan, wants to see Ukraine win and Russia & Putin lose.

So you're spouting non-sequiturs; 9/30/22, 4:50 PM
Drago said...: Cubanbob: "WTF does ANY of that have to do with excusing Putin's invasion of Ukraine, or opposing supporting the Ukrainians fighting Russia?"

Stop the drama. You're the guy that labeled criticism of NATO "pro-Putin".

If you dont like having that called out, then dont do it.

Cubanbob: "Watching Russia completely lose in Ukraine is about the most pro-Taiwan / anti-ChiCom thing that's happened this century."

No, commiting US attention and resources to a secondary if not tertiary theater is the absolute most anti-Taiwan / pro-ChiCom move you could make this century.

And you've driven the russkis even farther into the arms of the ChiComs.

But then again you neocons never learn and you always fail up.; 9/30/22, 9:44 PM
Drago said...: Greg: "Have you stopped to notice that between shouting "Nazis!" and excusing Vlad's behavior, you're pretty much acting just like the American Left?"

Have you noticed that I've never mentioned the Nazi's? That's because there are everywhere over there and always have been. On all sides.

Have you also noticed I've made zero excuses for "Vlad's behavior"?

But then again you and that other dips**t here some months back accused me of being a coward and never having served so I simply chalk it up to you not knowing very much and not paying close attention to what is actually being argued.

I also remember you were gung ho for all out nuclear war if that's what it took. You asserted it would be worth every life of every American to stop Vlad....but then I also noticed that you never said it would be worth the life of a single NATO member to stop Vlad. Which aligns perfectly with how the EU weenies view Americans: to be their on-call military force whenever and wherever they want us to be....and we get to pay for it! What a deal!

But I do commend you for your fantastic virtue signaling.....just like the lefties. Spoiler: They still won't let you join their club.; 9/30/22, 10:41 PM
Greg The Class Traitor said...: Drago said...
Cubanbob: "WTF does ANY of that have to do with excusing Putin's invasion of Ukraine, or opposing supporting the Ukrainians fighting Russia?"

Stop the drama. You're the guy that labeled criticism of NATO "pro-Putin".

1: That was me, not CubanBob. Learn how to read
2: Criticizing NATO members for not providing their pledged services is not pro-Putin
Calling Nato an expansionist threat to country on its borders is lunatic pro-Putin bullshit

If you can't tell the difference between the two, you have serious problems

Cubanbob: "Watching Russia completely lose in Ukraine is about the most pro-Taiwan / anti-ChiCom thing that's happened this century."

No, commiting US attention and resources to a secondary if not tertiary theater is the absolute most anti-Taiwan / pro-ChiCom move you could make this century.

News flash: The resources the US would use to help Taiwan if it were attacked by China are not being deployed in Ukraine. The invasion of Taiwan would be won or lost at sea. Either by destroying the amphibious assault before it can get their, or by destroying any ships bringing supplies to China (food, oil, other raw materials) until such time as the people of China explode

And you've driven the russkis even farther into the arms of the ChiComs.

You are such a freaking lunatic

Putin is an enemy of the US. He's been an enemy of the US his entire life. There is nothing we can do to change that.

And if by "driving him into the arms of the ChiComs" you mean "destroying his influence in Europe", I call that a win; 10/1/22, 12:48 PM
Greg The Class Traitor said...: Blogger Drago said...
Greg: "Have you stopped to notice that between shouting "Nazis!" and excusing Vlad's behavior, you're pretty much acting just like the American Left?"

Have you noticed that I've never mentioned the Nazi's? That's because there are everywhere over there and always have been. On all sides.

Have you also noticed I've made zero excuses for "Vlad's behavior"?

1: Actual Nazis as a meaningful force do not exist anywhere in the world today
2: Here's what you wrote"

The russkis very much see what NATO has done as an encroachment every bit as serious as we saw the russkis in Cuba. It doesn't matter if you think they are full of crap. They believe that. It doesn't mean you have to alter your plans. But knowing that helps you predict what any escalatory step on our part might entail in terms of a response and/or what to expect next from the russkis.

And now, of course, we are bragging and blustering about about putting delivery systems that can handle nukes directly on the russkis borders. Something tells me there are worse hardliners than Putin waiting in the wings so all this talk about getting rid of Putin, after what we did with Gaddafi, isn't going to give Vlad any warm and fuzzies.

All total bullshit.

You want to provide some believable links for your "we are bragging and blustering about about putting delivery systems that can handle nukes directly on the russkis borders" claim?

Because I'm 99% sure it's either a totally b ullshit claim, or a meaningless one.

Yes, we can put cruise missiles in NATO Countries. Yes, some Cruise Missiles can carry nukes

Saying "We're threatening Russia with nuclear destruction by saying we could put cruise missiles in Ukraine" is the claim of an utter lunatic

And your'e doing nothing there other than making excuses from Putin's behavior. Because the reality is that all the "Russian whines" you point out are bullshit, and they know it's bullshit.

Russia is upset about NATO being on Russia's borders because Russia wanted to use their military to bully the countries near them, and making those countries part of NATO takes away that ability.

That, and that alone, is their problem with NATO on their borders

They want their pathetic shithole of a country to be a "Great Power", and NATO takes that away

Everything else is BS; 10/1/22, 12:56 PM