"... of the reality-television star turned President.... But Stephen Gillers, a professor of legal ethics at New York University, cautioned me that a successful prosecution of Trump would likely need to demonstrate that his reckless handling of classified information caused actual harm—such as adversaries learning about American intelligence methods. Trump’s lawyers would argue that he was merely guilty of carelessness. Trump himself, of course, would make the case that he was being politically persecuted. 'I don’t think a jury would convict him without proof of harm. I’m not sure I would,' Gillers said. 'He’s a sloppy guy, and he couldn’t let go of the Oval Office, so he dumped a lot of stuff into boxes—souvenirs of his Presidency.'
Gillers added that, fairly or unfairly, prosecuting a former President requires meeting a higher legal and political threshold. 'It has to be one-hundred-per-cent irresistible as a matter of law,' he said. 'There can be no fact, no event, no piece of evidence that could support any room for ambiguity.'... A rushed prosecution that results in an acquittal would only strengthen the former President. The judicial process can be maddeningly slow. The best option for Trump’s opponents is to wait and trust...."
Gillers makes some good points, but I have trouble with this visual: "he dumped a lot of stuff into boxes." Who thinks he packed his own boxes?
Posts
103 comments:
Trump is geting Mau Mau ed. Or Trump is getting railroaded. Or the bananas are hanging off the DOJ and FBI. Or the affidavit and the raid were "bogus".
Pick your cliche. As the progressives pursue their wet dream of seeing Trump decked out in an orange jumpsuit, the plain folks will notice.
Now there may actually be something there---but like the Roadrunner the progressive coyotes announce that "we've got him this time" and the Bad Orange Man goes "beep beep" and skates away. And if you see the progs shoot repeatedly--and miss-- you begin to wonder if there is a real criminal target there.
Seems like we’ve vaulted from selling nuclear secrets to Russia and Saudi Arabia to a potential sloppy packing violation. Sad!!
he's NOT going to be prosecuted! If he was, it would have happened, a LONG time ago
attacking innocent blacks with chains...............no prosecution
adultery with his babysiter.........................no prosecution
having his wife MURDERED, to marry babysister.......no prosecution
plagiarism.................................................no prosecution
illegal use of hair plugs..................................no prosecution
character assassination....................................no prosecution
child abuse of His OWN daughter............................no prosecution
selling state secrets through his drug addict son..........no prosecution
smoking crack With his drug addict son.....................no prosecution
selling state secrets through his scurvy brother...........no prosecution
misappropriation of state funds to foreign gov's...........no prosecution
blackmailing foreign gov's.................................no prosecution
ordering the FBI* to illegally detain american citizens....no prosecution
ordering the FBI to illegal raid former President's house..no prosecution
Need i go on? If they haven't prosecuted YET, they aren't going to, ever
FBI* the Shield and Sword of the Democrat party
“ Who thinks he packed his own boxes?”
Who thinks he doesn’t have copies of the stuff they were really looking for? They were probably trying to figure out what they needed to reclassify to keep it from being introduced at any trial. Alas, I doubt Trump was leaving that stuff laying about in boxes at MAL.
Gillers makes some good points, but I have trouble with this visual: "he dumped a lot of stuff into boxes." Who thinks he packed his own boxes?
Your worship of these clowns and fools is gross.
The Clintons stole art and furniture. Obama pulled truckloads of documents out of the white house and he only gave copies back.
I have gone over the comparison of what Hillary did with classified documents and what Trump did enough times that only truly dishonest people still think Trump did anything wrong.
The New Yorker is a terrible publication for people who want to be lied to.
'He’s a sloppy guy, and he couldn’t let go of the Oval Office, so he dumped a lot of stuff into boxes—souvenirs of his Presidency.'
Trump has had the entire federal bureaucracy listening to his phone calls, reading all of his emails, leaking his tax returns, and offering millions of dollars to anyone who will turn on him.
And they cannot charge him with anything resembling a written law.
This New Yorker writer is appealing to Ann's class worship calling Trump sloppy.
Trump is clearly anything but sloppy when it comes to legal matters.
The New Yorker is trying to lower expectations over at CNN and MSNBC. It won’t work. The Left is never satisfied.
I am not a lawyer (nor do I play one on TV) but I do have a question about this that I hope Ann or the attorneys who regularly comment on this blog can answer here:
If the Feds ending up charging Trump based on having illegal possession of classified / top secret documents, wouldn’t those documents need to be introduced in court as evidence by the Feds and Trump’s attorneys and Trump be given access to those documents as part of his defense? I don’t think the Feds can claim the documents as being classified / Top Secret and when asked by Trump’s attorneys to prove it, the Feds would say to the court “You have to trust us on that one.”. And if Trump would demand a jury trial, wouldn’t the jury have access to those documents both in court during testimony and in the jury room when deliberating the case? All that would do is defeat the purpose of keeping the information in those documents from falling into the wrong hands.
Worst case is that he didn't go through the processes that are normally used for declassifying items and determining whether items were personal or not. That is hardly prosecutable, especially in light of what hasn't been investigated/prosecuted in the case of Democratic politicians.
His actions are likely about three orders of magnitude less significant, and less damaging/potentially damaging, than Hillary's email server.
Everyone's hoping this will be an Al Capone-style conviction but we all know it's going to be Jerry Rivers opening up a safe long buried in a basement.
The 2020 election was sabotaged. Biden occupies the office illegitimately.
Insurrection is warranted.
The now 6 year long lawfare campaign against Trump by the Democrats in itself justifies insurrection.
The best option for Trump’s opponents is to wait and trust....
Trust the DOJ and FBI. Quite the novel theory you have there. Not a particularly wise theory, but it is probably better than, I don't know, trusting hungry cannibals. Probably.
He wanted souvenirs, locked up, in a basement. They believe this.
Biden was a Senator for decades, ran multiple times for President, was Vice President, now President, but it is Trump that couldn’t let go of the Oval Office. I think Trump likes crowds and attention, and unlike Biden, Pelosi, or Cheney; Trump likes to go out and talk to people. I think the Press likes it when the politicians go through them.
Who thinks he packs his own boxes? The same people who think he does his own taxes. The left. All of them. Yes, they are that stupid.
Packed boxes on January 20? No. Dumped documents into boxes over the course of 4 years? Sure.
"I don’t think a jury would convict him without proof of harm."
Unless it was DC jury, then he would be found guilty in a New York minute.
Stephen Gillers, a professor of legal ethics at New York University, cautioned me that a successful prosecution of Trump would likely need to demonstrate that his reckless handling of classified information caused actual harm
I hear what he's saying but counterpoint: suppose a DC jury. You know jury nullification? Consider the opposite. If there's a decision to indict, his only chance would be a judge willing to block the factual question from reaching the jury.
The Dems political persecution of Trump is allowed because the Republicans want him gone as well.
They really thought they were finally going to get the goods on Donald Trump when they opened that safe. This time they had him!
I have yet to see any evidence that Trump broke any laws regarding documents. Where's the beef?
This wanker David Rohde is just auto-fellating himself. They should get an x-ray, I'll bet his vertebrae are in really unusual positions. Before you can throw someone into prison for improperly storing classified material, the material has to be classified. Not just marked classified, classified. And a President can declassify anything he likes.
Does anyone believe they could convict Trump without revealing the classified documents? Would half the country believe some government drone's testimony or will they want to see the goods? Andy McCarthy made this point as to why prosecutions for mishandling classified information was difficult because the government has to reveal the classified information in court. What if Trump had a "classified" report on the Russia collusion hoax, or the Steele Dossier produced by the intel community? As much as the classification system is used to protect national security secrets, it is used to protect the career bureaucrats from accountability. What if the "classified" document is who in the Obama admin asked for the identities of Americans caught in FISA surveillance.
In any case, I support a law that requires these DC cases be randomly assigned to the various districts. The district court of the District of Columbia and the jury pool are to politically biased to hold Democrats accountable and give Republicans a fair trial. Send some of these cases to Texas or even California on a random by lot basis.
The first thing a prosecution needs to show is POSSESSION. Did Trump personally possess these documents? Or were they merely stored on his property?
They also need to show KNOWLEDGE that he possessed a specific document.
They also need to show that the documents were in fact and in law actually classified.
And they need to show that Trump had INTENT to wrongly OBTAIN and possess classified materials. Did Trump KNOW that they were classified? Or did Trump declassify them - by whatever method? Did he believe them to be not classified?
And if they were classified, did he obtain them without authority, i.e. after his term ended? Or did he merely retain documents lawfully obtained during his presidency? And did he KNOW that they were retained? And did HE retain them or were they merely on his property?
And then there is the issue of a court's jurisdiction to rule on a president's declassification.
And then there is the problem of the government having to provide Brady material to the defense, which in this case would be handing over EVERY DOCUMENT THAT OBAMA TOOK.
Another thing that the Get-Trump crowd did not think through is the PROSECUTION OF JOE BIDEN after he leaves office. If this is the kind of Third-World shit game they want to play, then so be it. We'll play.
‘If the Feds ending up charging Trump based on having illegal possession of classified / top secret documents…’
There are procedures for having trials involving highly classified data. For example, not every word or paragraph in a highly classified document is classified, and each line and graphic is labeled (U), (TS), (NOFORN), etc. The declassified document would be less redacted than the affidavit for the raid. Seriously.
Rohde had been captured by the haqquanis dewey claridges company helped find him his colleague mark mazzetti targeted it for destruction
suppose a DC jury
Nope. Any jurisdiction for anything having to do with documents is in Florida. While a person is president, he can have documents taken wherever he damn well pleases, such as Biden's beach house. So any offense could happen only after Trump was president, when the documents were presumably already in Florida.
And who knows when the documents were transported to Florida? Could have been in 2017.
would likely need to demonstrate that his reckless handling of classified information caused actual harm
The government would need to demonstrate standing after two reckless impeachments and another in progress.
The now 6 year long lawfare campaign against Trump by the Democrats in itself justifies insurrection.
Unfortunately, while they elect to abort people... persons for light and casual causes, and deny civil rights with plausible cause, their competing interests have demonstrated an affinity to the rule of law as it is in principle. While all things are tolerable...
readering: "Packed boxes on January 20? No. Dumped documents into boxes over the course of 4 years? Sure."
The New and Approved Lies necessary to replace the older non-viable lies flow like a fountain from readering's keyboard and indeed from all leftists.
Again, remember: it was just 2 weeks ago the lefties/dems/nevertrumpers (but I repeat myself) were calling for Trump's literal execution for treason and espionage.
Literally.
They are insane. Maoist Cultural Revolution level insane.
They think that they have conceived a baby, but, alas, Cecile's scalpel suggests that they merely have possession of a fetus.
Maynard said...
The Dems political persecution of Trump is allowed because the Republicans want him gone as well.
Republican Politicians and a small minority of Republican voters want him gone.
The rest of the republican voters want them gone instead.
"...wait and trust.."
Wow.
And all this time I thought the walls are closing in.
Blogger Scotty, beam me up... said...
I am not a lawyer (nor do I play one on TV) but I do have a question about this that I hope Ann or the attorneys who regularly comment on this blog can answer here:
If the Feds ending up charging Trump based on having illegal possession of classified / top secret documents, wouldn’t those documents need to be introduced in court as evidence by the Feds and Trump’s attorneys and Trump be given access to those documents as part of his defense?
It keeps coming down to this.
Trump had possession of all those documents while POTUS. He declassified all of them- regardless of the stamps on them. So he cannot be charged with illegal possession of classified material.
Then the people who scream “He didn’t follow proper declassification procedures!” Which first, don’t exist for POTUS, and second, as the ultimate classification authority as POTUS, if they did exist, he could ignore them.
I find it fascinating that Biden, well the puppets making his decisions since he’s all but brain dead, have decided that Trump and Trump alone among all living former presidents, ever since there was a Presidential daily briefing, will not see it.
Supposedly all those Biden voters and supporters that showed up in throngs at his campaign rallies and continue to show up in great numbers when any administration official like the.VP makes a public appearance wanted to put the adults back in charge.
A USCG cutter, not a USN warship, a USCG cutter on fisheries patrol was recently denied a port visit to the Solomon’s for refuel and resupply. How’s that adults being ack in charge working for our international prestige? The Solomon Islands, population about 703,000, in a strategic spot in the Pacific, have to throw their lot in with China because they can no longer trust the USA. Great job by our DemoncRAT administration run by the adults, isn’t it?
“Who thinks he packed his own boxes?”
All those who want to see a prosecution and - in their wildest dreams - an execution.
And yes, they are insane.
The point isn’t to indict Trump.
The point is to keep the list of reasons you “can’t” vote for Trump longer than the list of reasons you “can’t” vote for his opponent.
Unfortunately for Dems, Biden’s list grows daily while Trump’s does not.
Joe was never going to be a sure bet in a “lesser of two evils” contest.
"wait and trust"
Trust that they'll get him, somehow, for something.
It's their consuming desire. Not that the country might be spared a political persecution, not that the whole kerfuffle might go away, not that it would be great for the system if a former president would be exonerated as quickly as possible.
No. The legal process is strictly a form of attack: lawfare.
These prog Prole lefties think Trump packed up his own shit. Amazing.
Gospace at 3:18 PM is entirely correct
Unless they can PROVE that Trump did not declassify the documents ("beyond a reasonable doubt"), Trump is not guilty of any crime in this matter.
They can not prove that, since Trump said he did declassify them while he was President, and since all the President has to do is wave his magic finger and say "this is declassified", and it's declassified.
So only a liar or an ignoramus would even try to pretend this is an actual issue
@exhelodrvr1 - As President, Trump is only beholden to processes delineated in the Constitution or imposed by the other coequal branches, not ones his *subordinate departments* create except as a courtesy (classification rules aren't Federal law, only punishments for breaking them). So he's not even guilty of a process crime.
Re BENDER and POSSESSION:
The area where the docs were stored was controlled by the Secret Service, who changed the locks at the behest of the DOJ/FBI.
If Trump had to get permission to see them, he didn't "possess" them.
@exhelodrvr1 - As President, Trump is only beholden to processes delineated in the Constitution or imposed by the other coequal branches, not ones his *subordinate departments* create except as a courtesy (classification rules aren't Federal law, only punishments for breaking them). So he's not even guilty of a process crime.
readering said...
Packed boxes on January 20? No. Dumped documents into boxes over the course of 4 years? Sure.
**********
The Great Kreskin once again returns to divine "facts" not in evidence.
"successful prosecution of Trump would likely need to demonstrate that his reckless handling of classified information caused actual harm—such as adversaries learning about American intelligence methods. "
What about Hillary's server??? IT WAS HACKED!! Remember that?
Nah... she was a Democrat and thus just forgetful..
“I have yet to see any evidence that Trump broke any laws regarding documents. Where's the beef?”
And you won’t. They will just make it sound like he did. Sure, he had documents marked classified (and above). That just means that the bureaucrats hadn’t done their job removing classified markings. And we know at least some of the documents where that is true - his last full day in office Trump formally ordered the declassification of all of the RussiaGate documents. This wasn’t by word of mouth this time, but on formal Presidential letterhead, with his signature. And amazingly, better than a year and a half later, and they still are being hidden from FOIA requests as, supposedly, still classified.
The interesting thing here is that every classified document that Trump is accused of mishandling will have to be corroborated as still being classified. How do they prove that it was classified, beyond a reasonable doubt, when he can show unclassified documents with classified markings? When he can just say that he ordered them declassified while still in office? Also interesting is that they now have a real (Trump nominated) Article III Judge involved in the appointment of a special master. She is requiring a detailed accounting of exactly what was seized by the FBI. I don’t think it is going to well for Team Blue.
JK Brown: "Does anyone believe they could convict Trump without revealing the classified documents?"
They are corrupt New Soviet Democraticals operating out of a near 100% far left democratical city with far left democratical judges, prosecutors and juries.
Evidence is not required. Lies are expected and desired and appreciated and will be more than enough for a conviction on whatever made up charge they want to bring.
Howard said...
Everyone's hoping this will be an Al Capone-style conviction but we all know it's going to be Jerry Rivers opening up a safe long buried in a basement
Jerry Rivers. Heh. Good one.
For a rundown of the latest problems with the affidavit, go here
https://redstate.com/nick-arama/2022/08/28/damning-info-in-trump-affidavit-that-raises-even-more-questions-about-fbi-doj-action-n619067
Collected a bunch of information, including from Real Clear Investigations https://twitchy.com/samj-3930/2022/08/28/dont-wanna-say-the-doj-set-trump-up-buuut-thread-of-fbi-affidavit-oddities-pretty-damn-damning-fisa-docs/
Not going to summarize, there's just too much there
Jeff Weimer,
I agree - but because he is Trump, they will try to make a crime out of it
Didn’t Hillary take some White House china?
If he didn't pack them, then who did? Did he just point at filing cabinets and tell someone to pack it all up? Did that someone have a security clearance? (Probably. I wonder if it was one of the secret service robots.) Can he throw that one under a bus?
If he didn't pack them, then who did? Did he just point at filing cabinets and tell someone to pack it all up? Did that someone have a security clearance? (Probably. I wonder if it was one of the secret service robots.) Can he throw that one under a bus?
Trump had possession of all those documents while POTUS. He declassified all of them- regardless of the stamps on them. So he cannot be charged with illegal possession of classified material.
If he declassified them (and how could something be declassified if he was the only one who knew they were declassified) then they are subject to a FOIA request, so we should be able to see them all.
Jeff Weimer,
I agree - but because he is Trump, they will try to make a crime out of it
Giller is correct. I don't think there will be any prosecution of Donald Trump. Based on the allegations so far, (not that I really follow it much at all), a prosecution is probably not warranted, (especially given that Obama chose not to prosecute members of the Bush/Cheney administration for implementing an active torture regime, a far graver crime than any I'm aware Trump has been accused of).
What is interesting to me is that. J E Hoover, who was the first leader of the FBI has been historically acknowledged as a blackmailer who used government documents to coerce public officials. But the fricking headquarters of the FBI is named after him!! We remove statues and building names all over the place but a crook has the FBI office named after him.
This is an organization that will never reconcile with the past, never admit past sins. And will never reform and become honest.
The most likely way this plays out is that FBI/DOJ/BidenWH/Stasi declare that they have overwhelming evidence to convict Trump of the worst crimes in the history of humanity.
BUT, they will not charge him or otherwise prosecute for various policy reasons. A smart Biden would also announce a pardon for said policy reasons, that they don't want to put the country through it all, etc., etc.
The fact is that this BS will have accomplished its goal - to incapacitate Trump from running for president again. Which he probably was not going to do anyway if they had simply left him alone.
If he didn't pack them, then who did?
Who do you think packed up all of Obama's papers, and Bush's, and Clinton's, and Bush's, and Reagan's, and Carter's, and Ford's, and yes even Nixon's papers, et al.
Please don't show to the world you are this dim. Government staff packed it up. General Services Administration transported it. Same as every other president.
But then again, so many of you never really considered Trump to be PRESIDENT, and so it never enters into your mind that any of his actions had presidential authority.
All they need is a jury of Trump haters. It wouldn't be too hard for good prosecutors to spot them.
Who thinks he packed his own boxes?
Apparently Gillers. My understanding is that they were packed by General Services. I have no idea how items were selected, but doubt there was anything unusual about it, that would have been noted.
jim: "If he didn't pack them, then who did? Did he just point at filing cabinets and tell someone to pack it all up? Did that someone have a security clearance? (Probably. I wonder if it was one of the secret service robots.) Can he throw that one under a bus?"
Its important for our leftwing drones to keep up the pace and volume in creating new made up and hoaxed up actions and hypotheticals to ensure each previous debunked lie can be immediately replaced with ever newer lies.
The Maoist/stalinst New Soviet Democratical beast requires feeding every single day.
A DC Jury is a check and balance on the Electoral College. The Don can ask for a Judge instead.
Blogger Howard said...
Everyone's hoping this will be an Al Capone-style conviction but we all know it's going to be Jerry Rivers opening up a safe long buried in a basement.
I would like to agree with Howard here but DC juries will convict anyone to the right of Lenin.
I see a DC grand jury indicting, then a DC jury with lots of Hillary donors convicting. Then the revolution.
“Who thinks he packed his own boxes?”
The Sergeant Schultz defense. I see nothing, I know nothing.
We don’t really know anything about the scope of the criminal investigation other than that the boxes of documents were seized. Let’s say it was Mark Meadows who directed the packing and transportation of these boxes to Mar-A-Lago. For all we know, Mark Meadows and not Donald Trump is the target of the criminal investigation.
From the article:
"The judicial process can be maddeningly slow. The best option for Trump’s opponents is to wait and trust...."
...that nuclear secrets or evidence of security breaches will somehow appear among the confiscated documents. Like magic.
The first thing a prosecution needs to show is POSSESSION. Did Trump personally possess these documents? Or were they merely stored on his property?
They also need to show KNOWLEDGE that he possessed a specific document.
They also need to show that the documents were in fact and in law actually classified.
And they need to show that Trump had INTENT to wrongly OBTAIN and possess classified materials. Did Trump KNOW that they were classified? Or did Trump declassify them - by whatever method? Did he believe them to be not classified?
And if they were classified, did he obtain them without authority, i.e. after his term ended? Or did he merely retain documents lawfully obtained during his presidency? And did he KNOW that they were retained? And did HE retain them or were they merely on his property?
Which begs the question, if he was that clueless, why do you love him so much?
The Sargeant Schultz defense ("I know nothing") generally doesn't work out so well. Bernie Ebbers of MCI tried it and he got 35 years.
Again, remember: it was just 2 weeks ago the lefties/dems/nevertrumpers (but I repeat myself) were calling for Trump's literal execution for treason and espionage.
Actually, I don't remember this. You got any citation for this assertion?
What about Hillary's server??? IT WAS HACKED!! Remember that?
Don't remember that either. Please provide a link.
The same people who think he packed his own boxes are the same people who think that he does his own taxes.
"Who thinks he packed his own boxes?"
jim
Althouse asked:
"Who thinks he packs his own boxes?"
These are the same people who think Trump prepares his own tax returns, so the answer is Left Wing idiots, that's who.
Funny, ain't it, how the "nuclear secrets" vanished from the narrative.
Who reads any of these stories from WaPoo and NYSlimes and believes any of it any longer? Morons and imbeciles.
This is not going to end well for the Democrats and the Never Trumper's and the RINO's. Short of stealing elections for the next ten years they will get what they sowed. The Republicans take Congress this year and the investigations into the Biden's, the Clinton's,the FBI an the DoJ, the intelligence agencies and Obama begin. The Republicans have nothing to lose, those Republicans who out themselves by being against the investigations set themselves up for primary challengers and in 2024 Trump gets reelected on the promise to really drain the swamp this time and with nothing to lose goes to war against the swamp.
Total money spent by US news organizations "debunking" election fraud.
$0
"Who thinks he packs his own boxes?"
The same people who thought classified documents were being flushed down toilets. I still want to see somebody test that idea on camera.
Freder.
https://www.newsmax.com/newsfront/cia-nsa-michael-hayden/2022/08/12/id/1082815/
Freder Frederson said...
"What about Hillary's server??? IT WAS HACKED!! Remember that?
Don't remember that either. Please provide a link."
What we do know is, yes it was hacked. But Chinese? Some say yes, some say no, some say 'not verified'. But it was hacked. FBI just says it wasn't the Chinese...
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/fbi-indifferent-to-possible-china-hack-of-hillary-clintons-server-as-state-department-fought-to-protect-her-interviews-suggest
https://dailycaller.com/2018/08/27/china-hacked-clinton-server/
https://english.alarabiya.net/News/world/2018/08/28/The-Daily-Caller-China-hacked-Clinton-s-email-during-her-time-as-secretary-of-state
Trump is a problem to peace lovers like the Professor.Like our Pacific fleet at Pearl Harbor on Dec. 7,1941. He attracts the enemy’s attacks over and over and over and that is making peace impossible. If he would just surrender and accept his share in the looting of the USA, peace would return. But he is a wrestler and an Israel lover. So the attacks on him will go on. Reminds me of Winston Churchill who refused to sign the negotiated English surrender to Germany in May, 1940. A true Bulldog. They forgot Winston’s mother was Scots Irish.Trump will follow Winston’s advice and NEVER SURRENDER.
So I strolled over to threadreaderapp to glimpse at the liberal hive mind and the garbage they’re putting. Rarely do I read a full thread.
On at least 3 threads from different people the newest DemoncRAT talking point appears:
. TRUMP ESPIONAGE!
Not bolded, italicized in capital letters with an exclamation point. I did that for emphasis.
Yep, we now all need to fear the Trump Espionage he did while POTUS. While surrounded by Secret Service agents. With a football carrying military officer within shouting distance at all times. With every call and other form of communication he had monitored at all times 24/7/365(366 on leap year). With every document he had access to being delivered to him by somebody who knew what was in it. Somehow the evil wily Trump evaded all the monitoring that POTUS is under and committed espionage.
There’s really no dealing with anyone who spouts crap like that. A 72 hour psych hold (I think that’s the time.) and evaluation is warranted for the idiots posting that kind of crap. They’re a danger to themselves and others
Its seems like the steady gushing of leaks from the DOJ has slowed to a trickle or the media complex is conceding this blew up in their faces, again and want it to go away.
Nothing makes a liberal with TDS angrier than asking "Who packed the boxes?" They either have to concede at worst this is some process "crime" over records keeping or they are dopes who believe any fevered dream to explain their blinding hatred of Trump.
Nuclear secrets? Really? You really believe he's a traitor that stole nuclear secrets to resell? You see how fast that balloon juice disappeared? Now they are claiming they never said that.
Blogger Freder Frederson said...
What about Hillary's server??? IT WAS HACKED!! Remember that?
Don't remember that either. Please provide a link.
Investigator Freder does not recall the Hillary secret documents story. She had a private server in her house and transferred lots of top secret material to it, some of which her staffer transferred from secret internet accounts b y copied them and scanning.
The FBI "investigation" ignored hammer destroyed smartphones and the FBI declined to examine her home brew server, turning the investigation over to a Democrat outfit called "crowdstrike."
Links ? Crowdstike and Hillary.
“If he declassified them (and how could something be declassified if he was the only one who knew they were declassified) then they are subject to a FOIA request, so we should be able to see them all.”
You would think that, wouldn’t you? But you have the reality that the documents that Trump formally ordered declassified, on his last full day in the office, mysteriously are being withheld from FOIA requests, as classified, better than a year and a half later. The problem with Occum’s Razor here is that the bureaucrats very likely directly disobeyed his direct order to declassify the documents. That doesn’t mean that they weren’t declassified, but rather only that their classified markings weren’t removed.
Also, as I pointed out above - the prosecution would have an insurmountable proof problem, in their burden to prove a negative, that regardless of classified markings, that they were indeed still classified. Sure, in normal circumstances, the prosecutor can ask that the court can presume that documents marked classified, indeed still are. Not so here - one contrary example (such as for the RussiaGate documents formally ordered declassified that still very like still contain classified markings). Without that presumption, the prosecutors cannot prove that the documents were still classified when found in Trump’s possession. All that they might be able to prove is that no one whom they interviewed saw Trump declassify the documents.
Michael K said...
Blogger Howard said...
Everyone's hoping this will be an Al Capone-style conviction but we all know it's going to be Jerry Rivers opening up a safe long buried in a basement.
I would like to agree with Howard here but DC juries will convict anyone to the right of Lenin.
I see a DC grand jury indicting, then a DC jury with lots of Hillary donors convicting. Then the revolution.
*****************
Why does a federal warrant signed off by a Florida magistrate automatically get turned into an indictment and jury trial in DC?
Someone wanna 'splain that to me?
Michael K said...
Blogger Howard said...
Everyone's hoping this will be an Al Capone-style conviction but we all know it's going to be Jerry Rivers opening up a safe long buried in a basement.
I would like to agree with Howard here but DC juries will convict anyone to the right of Lenin.
I see a DC grand jury indicting, then a DC jury with lots of Hillary donors convicting. Then the revolution.
*****************
Why does a federal warrant signed off by a magistrate in Florida automatically get turned into an indictment and a jury trial in DC?
The alleged crime is Trump's "possession" of documents in Florida. (Never mind that the Secret Service held the keys to the locks and changed them after the DOJ asked them to.)
The property seized was in Florida, as was the alleged perp; FLA is his residence.
So...why DC? Someone wanna 'splain that to me???
I heard he stuffed documents in his socks, which were ill fitting, sloppy.
The foundation must be pretty compelling for Garland to think on it all that time.
effinayright: "Why does a federal warrant signed off by a magistrate in Florida automatically get turned into an indictment and a jury trial in DC?"
Because that's what the combined New Soviet Democraticals and their GOPe allies want.
And DC is automatic Kafkaesque/Stalin show trial ready.
MG/Gangsta AG: "Ohhhhhhhhhhh.
Ohhhhhh.
I don't knoooowwww."
effinayright,
Because Kangaroos are in shorter supply in Fkorida than DC.
"that his reckless handling"
Assertions by adjective are always a good tell that the writer is full of sht.
"A DC Jury is a check and balance on the Electoral College."
I thought the entire point of denying statehood to the District of Columbia was to keep it neutral ground?
Effinayright - Pretty sure he could be charged in DC or Florida. Up to DOJ where to bring charges. I think it will be in Florida, partly to quiet down the "DC jury will convict anyone to the right of Lenin" crowd.
As for harm if you were a Russian thinking of working for US Intelligence, will this whole episode - with the real possibility of "the declassifier at a whim" getting back in the WH -- make you reconsider your career choice? Probably. There be your harm.
I had a great many disagreements with much of what Professor Stephen Gillers from NYU said, but his visual: "he dumped a lot of stuff into boxes," has some written support from Trump's former Director of Communications Stephanie Grisham who knows that he used boxes as a dumping place.
“Any documents that made it to the White House residence were in these boxes Trump carried around with him,” explained Stephanie Grisham, a former senior White House staffer. “Usually the body man would have brought them upstairs for Trump or someone from the outer-Oval at the end of the day. They would get handed off to the residence and just disappear.”
“There was no rhyme or reason — it was classified documents on top of newspapers on top of papers people printed out of things they wanted him to read. The boxes were never organized,” Grisham said. “. . . so he’d just rummage through the boxes. That was our filing system.”
When Trump goes to trial in DC from whence the documents were taken, no Trump-appointee judges and OJ Simpson-like jurors will be around to circumvent justice, so the string of witnesses, the huge pile of stolen government documents, and the expert witnesses explaining the need to protect Americas secrets will overwhelm the underdog lawyers willing to represent Trump.
effinayright said...
The property seized was in Florida, as was the alleged perp; FLA is his residence.
So...why DC? Someone wanna 'splain that to me???
Try this on for size f'n a:
Suppose our perp, (good description) hauls his stolen classifieds to Jeffrey Epstein's private island, Little Saint James, where nobody lives. Just where would you hold the trial?
At.the.location.where.the.documents.were.stolen.
Further, the care and feeding of NARA documents happens only in Washington DC metro.
Gillers doesn't seem to understand,
1. The President doesn't pack his own boxes,
2. The President can declassify anything in any way he chooses, no documentation required,
3. The President is the sole authority on determining what is a personal record.
Also the affidavit failed to reference relevant court decision crucial to the issue (SC 1988, DC 2012) that should have led a competent senate-confitmed judge to deny the warrant.obe wonders how much shopping they did before finding this magistrate.
For 18 months nothing from these docs leaked from Mar-a-Lago, but the FBI/DOJ has been leaking like a sieve over them for 2 weeks nonstop.
Who thinks he packed his own boxes?
==========
or opened them to dissipate intelligence treasures to four corner of world
And I'll repeat my contention from the sunrise thread yesterday. This is primarily, though probably not exclusively, an effort by the National Archives to deprive Trump of anything more significant than a bunch of White House golf balls to put in a Presidential Library. The deep state knows it's at its best when controlling history through selective dissemination of information. Trump will be deprived of anything that represents a positive accomplishment or would illustrate his side of the impeachments. That big warehouse at the end of Raiders of The Lost Ark is where Trump's papers will wind up being buried. His opponents couldn't eject him from the Presidency but they can hope to make him as obscure a President as William Henry Harrison.
How does Gillers know what they found? (He doesn't)
If it's sloppy packing of boxes, why break into his safe and Melania's closet?
Why isn't the "reckless" incendiary verbal device ever applied to the FBI goons who did this outrageous thing?
"Further, the care and feeding of NARA documents happens only in Washington DC metro."
Sure, unless they are in Chicago, because the Constitution says that anything Obama did is accordingly sprinkled with angel dust, and therefore sacred; whereas Trump is bad and anything he did is presumed to be criminal, and anyway is kind of icky and gross.
... a successful prosecution of Trump would likely need to demonstrate that his reckless handling of classified information...
Missing at least a couple of key steps here:
A. Demonstrating that the information was still classified.
B. Demonstrating that it was handled recklessly.
gadfly said...
Suppose our perp, (good description) hauls his stolen classifieds to Jeffrey Epstein's private island, Little Saint James, where nobody lives. Just where would you hold the trial?
At.the.location.where.the.documents.were.stolen.
Further, the care and feeding of NARA documents happens only in Washington DC metro.
Watch the fascist liar go.
No documents were stolen. Nothing was classified. Period.
Obama still has 15 truckloads of docs in Illinois. He sent copies back to NARA.
You are a stupid liar.
The implication seems to be that it is ok to go after someone lesser than a pres with weak evidence and weak law.
It has been repeatedly pointed out that the Pres Records Act is not a criminal code and that courts have sided with every past president since 1978 on what they decide to take with them. The Nat archives can dispute but they cannot jail a former pres.
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