From "In Ukraine, the Men Who Must Stay and Fight/As hundreds of thousands of citizens flee the Russian advance, the country’s government has ordered men ages 18 to 60 to remain" on today's episode of the NYT podcast "The Daily."
March 1, 2022
"Last weekend, I cannot decide should I buy games to play on my PlayStation. Today, I have to decide should I have to fight Russian army to my death. It's a pretty drastic change."
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59 comments:
Ukraine is not current on gender roles.
There is a real world out there, that doesn't give a shit about how diverse you out are, or if you social distance, or if you are building windmills for your electricity. The Democrats would be wise to pay attention to that.
The reporter describes a bus full of Ukrainians leaving the country — men, women, and children. They find out that the men will not be allowed to leave. If they thought of themselves as refugees, they got the sudden shock of learning that they were deserting their country and leaving others to fight. The men were taken off the bus and sent back to serve as civilian defense, which seems to be focused on Molotov cocktails.
If one neighboring country, say; Mexico, invaded the USA.. What would OUR people do?
Oh, wait; we already know
I had something to say, but @exhelodriver did a better job of saying it. Thanks.
rhhardin said...
Ukraine is not current on gender roles
We won’t hear much opposition from the feminists…
Life can come at you hard, no matter what came before.
Visa requirement for entrance stopped. Anyone who can get to Ukraine are welcome to fight.
Compare the Ukrainians to the Afghans,
A lot of men are returning to Ukraine from Poland and other countries to fight for the Ukraine, their country. This is what happens when you have a President who fights for your country. Afghanistan on the other hand....
See 5:53 post.
You don't need an AR-15 and high capacity magazines with a hundred bullets.
The reporter describes a bus full of Ukrainians leaving the country — men, women, and children. They find out that the men will not be allowed to leave.
Desperate times call for desperate measures. "I'm no good at being noble, but it doesn't take much to see that the problems of three little people don't amount to a hill of beans in this crazy world."
It is hard to believe anything printed in the NY Times. They got a Pulitzer for covering up the deaths of millions of Ukrainians by Russia by printing false stories.
This is a big difference between most of the real world and the one we live in here in the US where we worry about getting coconut milk for our latte, or if we can download the most recent Peloton software update. Much of humanity finds itself fighting for survival every generation or two.
I suspect if the tanks were rolling into southern Washington State, and the men were asked to stay behind to fight, there would be a flood of non-binary gender-fluid folks scurrying for the busses out of town. The rest would be pale colored techies who find it an adventure just to go outside. They'd stay inside playing video games hoping the world doesn't notice them.
This is not the generation in the US that is going to storm the beaches anywhere, unless there's a sand castle building tournament going on. I'm not saying it's sane to stay and fight an overwhelming force. But I am saying the level of national love in the Ukraine is far greater than the level of national love here in the US. I'm not sure the newest generation has any veneration for it's own country. I'm not sure they've been taught that there's anything good about the US. And I'm not sure how we let that happen over multiple generations.
Kharkiv was getting pounded by Russian artilery. Good luck and God bless, Eugene.
"The reporter describes a bus full of Ukrainians leaving the country — men, women, and children. They find out that the men will not be allowed to leave. If they thought of themselves as refugees, they got the sudden shock of learning that they were deserting their country and leaving others to fight. The men were taken off the bus and sent back to serve as civilian defense, which seems to be focused on Molotov cocktails."
Guess they were looking for boring.
Obama needs to remind the world about the "Arc of History" again. The world forgot it, apparently.
Trans rights are human rights. I hope that has been explained to Ukraine.
"The men were taken off the bus and sent back to serve as civilian defense, which seems to be focused on Molotov cocktails."
"You fight with the army you have rather than the army you wish you had." D. Rumsfeld
It is a good thing Joe Biden is so focused on "Climate Change."
This war is happening because democrats and leftists are driving the price of Oil up with their quest to dominate everyone's lives through fighting "climate change."
Now because of Joe Biden and the Environmentalist movement we import 21% of our gas from Russia.
Every time we fill up our gas tanks we are funding the Russian invasion.
Democrats then denounce anyone who does not want to go to war with Russia and their political opponents as traitors.
They really are just shitty people.
“... that they were deserting their country and leaving others to fight.”
We are in trouble if people begin to believe that the society that has been built (supposedly) for their benefit is no longer worth defending..... and if you think you are defending it you end up hanging yourself in your garage.
People (most) willingly fight for things they believe in.
The Molotov Cocktail was invented to combat Russian/Soviet aggression.
Kharkiv is part of Russian speaking Ukraine and Putin is bombing it. Maybe he misunderstood their enthusiasm for Russian citizenship.
Blogger Howard said...
The Molotov Cocktail was invented to combat Russian/Soviet aggression.
As usual, Howard gets it backwards. It was named that because Russians used them on German tanks.
Seeing reports that the French Foreign Legion has given Ukrainian members the ok to take "home leave" to go and fight.
Wikipedia:
The name "Molotov cocktail" was coined by the Finns during the Winter War,[1] called Molotovin koktaili in Finnish. The name was a pejorative reference to Soviet foreign minister Vyacheslav Molotov, who was one of the architects of the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact signed in late August 1939.
The name's origin came from the propaganda Molotov produced during the Winter War, mainly his declaration on Soviet state radio that bombing missions over Finland were actually airborne humanitarian food deliveries for their starving neighbours.[2] As a result, the Finns sarcastically dubbed the Soviet cluster bombs "Molotov bread baskets" in reference to Molotov's propaganda broadcasts.[3] When the hand-held bottle firebomb was developed to attack and destroy Soviet tanks, the Finns called it the "Molotov cocktail", as "a drink to go with his food parcels".[4]
OK, many Ukrainians want to fight, though some clearly don't. But is the fight worth the cost? Of course, in war you can't know the outcome. Maybe the Ukrainians can prevail. Inflicting pain on the enemy even if you will lose can have its benefits; then again, it can also make things much worse, both during the war and in the settlement afterward. Might it be to Ukraine's benefit to give up its cities, and, gasp, surrender as quickly as possible? Might it be to Europe's benefit to dial back the harsh sanctions? Might it be in our long-term interest to pry Russia away from China?
"Michael K said...
Blogger Howard said...
The Molotov Cocktail was invented to combat Russian/Soviet aggression.
As usual, Howard gets it backwards. It was named that because Russians used them on German tanks."
Nope, the term was coined by the Finns, for the device used by them against Russian tanks.
There is a real world out there, that doesn't give a shit about how diverse you out are, or if you social distance, or if you are building windmills for your electricity. The Democrats would be wise to pay attention to that.
@exhelodrvr1, +1
As usual, Howard gets it backwards. It was named that because Russians used them on German tanks.
Don't want to get between you and Howard in one of your spats, but I believe he is right in this case. From Wikipedia:
"Molotov cocktail" was coined by the Finns during the Winter War, called Molotovin koktaili in Finnish. The name was a pejorative reference to Soviet foreign minister Vyacheslav Molotov, who was one of the architects of the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact signed in late August 1939.
The name's origin came from the propaganda Molotov produced during the Winter War, mainly his declaration on Soviet state radio that bombing missions over Finland were actually airborne humanitarian food deliveries for their starving neighbours. As a result, the Finns sarcastically dubbed the Soviet cluster bombs "Molotov bread baskets" in reference to Molotov's propaganda broadcasts.[3] When the hand-held bottle firebomb was developed to attack and destroy Soviet tanks, the Finns called it the "Molotov cocktail", as "a drink to go with his food parcels"
Of course Wikipedia could be wrong. Do you have a source for your assertion?
From Wikipedia:
The name "Molotov cocktail" was coined by the Finns during the Winter War,[1 Online Etymology Dictionary: Molotov cocktail. Douglas Harper, 2010.] called Molotovin koktaili in Finnish. The name was a pejorative reference to Soviet foreign minister Vyacheslav Molotov, who was one of the architects of the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact signed in late August 1939.
Re: Temujin:
But I am saying the level of national love in the Ukraine is far greater than the level of national love here in the US. I'm not sure the newest generation has any veneration for it's own country.
They have honest-to-god Nazis fighting for them. I was looking at a picture of a soldier in Kharkov with a cat that supposedly sussed out snipers. Cute story, a little dubious but then my eyes wandered over to the soldier's arm patch -- oh, it's the Wolfsangel rune. Of course.
But regardless of whether their President is Jewish, these Nazis are hardcore nationalists first and foremost. And they know they're first against the wall if Putin wins. They'll probably fight to the death.
That said, these ordinary people taking up arms aren't part of the Ukraine's shady Nazi battalions. They're not necessarily even strong nationalists. They're people whose cities are getting bombed and shelled by the Russians.
That's a pretty disgusting comment at 3/1/22, 9:38 AM.
I'm sad to read this. I hope this young man doesn't get killed. The Ukrainian leaders need to stop this madness and start negotiating. All this dummb "rah rah let fight" and handing out Molotov Cocktails and AK 47s is just getting people killed for no reason.
Love of Country? LOL. Biden is calling in the National Guard to protect our ruling class from the American people. Not clear whether Machine gun nests and claymore mines will be used. Perhaps Mitt Romney will start packing heat - he can hide it in his purse.
Temujin, 7:16:
"This is not the generation in the US that is going to storm the beaches anywhere, unless there's a sand castle building tournament going on. I'm not saying it's sane to stay and fight an overwhelming force. But I am saying the level of national love in the Ukraine is far greater than the level of national love here in the US. I'm not sure the newest generation has any veneration for it's own country. I'm not sure they've been taught that there's anything good about the US."
You might be surprised.
Every month I put on a uniform and I spend a weekend with a bunch of people a lot younger than I am – 30 years younger in some cases. (They're majority black, not that that should matter, and among us it doesn't.) They signed on the dotted line to protect this country, and with varying levels of cynicism we all mean it. About half of us signed up at a time when doing so equated to saying, I'll go. Send me.
I have a lot of worries about where this country is headed. I have always tended toward mild pessimism in the short and middle term. In recent years I've lost my long-term optimism. But for now, I absolutely know there is a critical mass of young adults this country can count on. You don't hear about them much because they don't make trouble, and they're more inclined to get on with life than to bitch. But they're still there.
Mark, 10:50: I think "disgusting comment" is an unreasonable response. I don't think the Ukrainians should fold, but they should consider the option carefully before rejecting it, as they seem inclined to do. And other countries should consider exactly what we will and won't do to support them, rather than (a) give them false hope and leave them twisting in the wind; or (b) stumble into WWIII without ever having decided to fight it.
Mark said...
That's a pretty disgusting comment at 3/1/22, 9:38 AM.
Please explain why Sebastion's comment is disgusting.
Use your words.
But wait there's more...
https://conservativehardliner.com/looks-united-states-was-indeed-funding-biolabs-russias-border
Wait and see.
Balfegor said...
They have honest-to-god Nazis fighting for them
Right. And so did the Canadian truckers
/sarc
News flash for the historically illiterate: The Nazis were just as eager to slaughter Ukranian Slavs as they were to slaughter Russian Slavs.
So pull the other one, it plays Jingle Bells.
Then pull your head out of you a$$, and stop repeating really stupid Russian propaganda
Sebastian said...
But is the fight worth the cost?
Yes
Inflicting pain on the enemy even if you will lose can have its benefits; then again, it can also make things much worse, both during the war and in the settlement afterward.
Being a pathetic chickshit loser is always a huge cost
Might it be to Ukraine's benefit to give up its cities, and, gasp, surrender as quickly as possible?
No
Might it be to Europe's benefit to dial back the harsh sanctions?
No
Might it be in our long-term interest to pry Russia away from China?
Putin sided with Islamic terrorists against the US while Islamic terrorists were attacking Russia
He is our enemy. He will always be our enemy, because he's an emotional child ravaged by the fact that the USSR lost.
Now, please GFY, you pathetic historical ignoramus and jock sniffer to dictators
We are being dragged into the edge of a nuclear war by crying women.
"That's a pretty disgusting comment"
Mark is willing to fight to the last Ukrainian to avenge Hillary's loss.
Ballegor has nazis on the brain. A terrible disease which turns it sufferers into perhaps not nazis themselves (though the idea of (Ukrainian) 'untermenschen' is in there despite the reference to 'ordinary people') but certainly into something as vile.
Fight the Russian army to THEIR death.
Mark said.That's a pretty disgusting comment at 3/1/22, 9:38 AM.
Mark please explain what is disgusting about that comment. My understanding is that kharkiv is in the part of the Ukraine that Putin says wants to be in Russia because they speak Russian and part of this exercise is to free the Russian speaking people of eastern Ukraine from the Nazis in western Ukraine. If that is true, is Putin literally destroying the village in order to save it?
This reminds me of a young Croat I met near the Zagreb train station shortly after the war ended there in the 90s. He was returning to his hometown which was in what had been a part of Croatia inhabited by Serbs, but which had been ethnically cleansed at the end of the war. He said, when your Serb neighbor comes home wearing the uniform of the Serb militia, you can do one of three things. You can do nothing and hope that nothing bad happens. You can go join the Croat militia and fight. Or you can leave. It looks like Ukrainians get only two choices.
David Begley said...
Visa requirement for entrance stopped. Anyone who can get to Ukraine are welcome to fight.
Is there a GiveSendGo for Adam Kinzinger's plane ticket to Kyiv?
Re: PhilD:
I have Nazis on the brain because I keep seeing photos of Ukrainian fighters sporting Nazi insignia! I think they've phased out use of the Wewelsburg Black Sun in favour of just the Wolfsangel but geez -- this isn't like calling Republicans "Nazis" because they support gun rights or calling Democrats "Nazis" because they support vaccine passports. These people are out and proud Nazis celebrating a Nazi collaborator as one of their heroes!
And this isn't some fever dream. I've seen like one defense of the Azov Battalion claiming that it's really an abbreviation for something that only coincidentally looks like the SS Wolfsangel, but I don't find that all that persuasive given that they were also using the Black Sun from Himmler's SS castle in their logo.
Look, given the situation, I don't think we particularly care (anymore) that the Ukraine is relying on Nazis to help fend off the Russians. I think our appropriations bills still technically have a restriction to prevent our money and weapons from going to the more obviously Nazi elements in the Ukrainian army and security services. But we can deal with that later, after the Ukraine isn't fighting for it's continued existence.
What aggravates me is that it's like the elephant in the room here -- people in US politics constantly throw around wild accusations that X or Y is like Nazis . . and then when we have actual bloody Nazis flashing Nazi symbols and boasting about coating their bullets in pigs fat for shooting Muslim "orcs" in the Russian army we're . . just going to pretend we didn't see anything?
Rcocean, you know what would also reduce the death count even more? The Russians not invading. You aren't pro-peace, you're pro-invader.
The Ukrainians have a good idea of what will happen under a Russian government, that's why they fight. Under the Soviet Russian government there was the huge famine called the Holodomor in the Ukraine. That's what the Russians are like. You don't get to have soft easy life if you just do what the Russian government wants. Their government people get to have a soft life based on your former resource and, in place of dinner and videogames, you get time to think about the period when you could have fought them.
You dipshits keep thinking I'm "Lefty Mark." I'm not. What Sebastian said and what all of you cowering pieces of shit who share his sentiments is disgusting and cause for your everlasting shame for many of the reasons Greg cited and more.
If you can't figure it out, if you don't get it, even more do you deserve scorn and contempt.
Wow. Who turned this into a party for Russian dupes and sympathizers?
What Balfegor said. I noticed the "unusual" insignia too. Maybe they are not Nazis. Maybe they are just kind of fascistic. Either way, they are not real swell people. Yes, it's true that the Nazis considered Slavs Untermenschen, but surprisingly, a lot of them aren't aware of that. I've lived in the region and met people who didn't know that. Or maybe the Communists were so awful in Ukraine, that they don't care. The Nazis were good in comparison. Causing people to starve might lead people to think that way. In my wife's village, a lot of people say, "The Germans weren't that bad. They gave us candy. They left us alone. Not like the Russians. They stole what they could." (Obviously these people aren't Jewish.) This doesn't mean Putin is justified in invading. It just means that the situation is complicated and not nearly as black and white as it may appear. It also goes to show that people shouldn't call others Nazis just because they disagree, because the word has lost its meaning.
boasting about coating their bullets in pigs fat for shooting Muslim "orcs" in the Russian army we're . . just going to pretend we didn't see anything?
This bothers you?
My understanding, Balfegor, is that the largest population of Nazis in the world is in Russia.
It's as if every TV writer and fiction author had been corraled to draft little blurbs making someone seem so noble and brave.
Excuse my cynicism. It's hard-won. I no longer believe any story that anyone tries to tell me that so blatantly tugs on my heartstrings. It's all like the fake racism attacks on campuses; I just wait a day and some little column hidden somewhere comes out with the real details, and they usually are quite different. Snake Island, anyone?
Re: Nazi stuff - what I've figured out so far
Ukraine was in the middle of the huge war machines of Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia back in WWII. The Soviets surged in, wiped out millions of Ukrainians, and then the German tide shoved it back and swept the Sovs out. For a while, the Ukr's looked on the Nazis as their saviours. That didn't last long - the Germans were killing them too - but some of it remained not so much from love of Nazi as from hatred of Soviets. It's more anti-Sov than pro-Nazi.
Nazis.. the President is Jewish
Might it be in our long-term interest to pry Russia away from China?Because siding with Dictators have worked so well for the USA
"These people are out and proud Nazis celebrating a Nazi collaborator as one of their heroes!"
See Balfegor, that "Nazi collaborator" lived in a country that had just been subjected to a genocide level mass murder. That you call him a "collaborator" (whatever else he was) because he didn't fight for 'Uncle Joe', responsible for that mass murder and others, but against him is one reason why I think you have a "nazi on the brain disease".
The Russian invasion has nothing at all to do with 'nazis' in the Ukraine. Yet you keep bringing them up like a Russian troll would. Nazis are basically dead since 1945 and more people then in WW2 have been murdered since 1945 by communists yet I see you never bother to ask yourself how many 'communists' are fighting in the Russian Army.
You ask "just going to pretend we didn't see anything?"? You should ask yourself that question.
And like a Goebbels would defame you defame the Ukrainians by saying it "is relying on Nazis". The Ukraine isn't a 'nazi' state and not likely to become even despite defamers like you.
Btw, 'Ukrainian nazi' is a contradiction in terms seeing as Slavs are considered "untermenschen" in nazi-ideology. These misguided people aren't going to conquer the world but they may fight for their country. A country fighting for its life.
"and boasting about coating their bullets in pigs fat for shooting Muslim "orcs" in the Russian army" Okay, very bad trash talk even while fighting an invading army. And they should use nice bullets instead. Just like the Russians use nice bombs no doubt.
PhilD "Yet you keep bringing them up like a Russian troll would. Nazis are basically dead since 1945 and more people then in WW2 have been murdered since 1945 by communists yet I see you never bother to ask yourself how many 'communists' are fighting in the Russian Army."
Come to think of it, now that you bring this up, we would do well to remember that Putin is former KGB -- that is, the Soviet equivalent of the Nazi SS.
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