January 5, 2022

"Working with information from online sleuths who style themselves as 'Sedition Hunters,' the authorities have made more than 700 arrests — with little sign of slowing down."

I'm trying to read "Prosecutors Move Quickly on Jan. 6 Cases, but Big Questions Remain/In the year since the assault on the Capitol by a pro-Trump mob, more than 700 people have been arrested, with little public indication from the Justice Department of how high the investigation might reach" in The New York Times. 

"Sedition Hunters"?! That stopped me. What is sedition? If you Google, the top article you'll see is "‘Sedition’: A Complicated History/As a mob stormed the Capitol, the word 'sedition' was on many people’s lips. Its force is clear, but its echoes across American history are more complex and ambiguous" in the NYT, from January 7, 2021, one day after the mob scene in the Capitol. 

The word "sedition" was on many people’s lips — You know the "many people" and how they talk — how they talk and how they've hunted, assiduously, for a big revolutionary movement among the Trumpsters of America. They've been saying "sedition" for a year, and what have they found? 

Yes, 700+ people have been arrested for the things we saw happening before our eyes on January 6th, but that didn't take a sophisticated investigation to discover. A big outdoor protest turned into an indoor event. They broke in where they weren't allowed. That was as bad as it was, but it ended that day. What else was there? Apparently there's "little indication" of anything else, but who knows "how high the investigation might reach"? 

Today's NYT article is a big slog, because it won't simply say the hunt for some higher level offense has come up empty. There's "no public indication of the degree to which" the Justice Department might have something more. 

There is an admission that the government is struggling in processing the existing cases:
Overworked courts have tried to balance the laborious exchange of discovery materials with speedy trial protections and to manage the bleak conditions at Washington’s local jails where some defendants are being held without bail. They have also faced a fundamental, underlying tension: how to mete out justice on an individual level to hundreds of defendants who together helped form a violent mob.

In other words, the usual criminal procedure is followed. What's the "tension"? That in the United States, criminal defendants are individuals, with individual rights? What is that in tension with? The desire for a mass trial, a kangaroo court, a lynching? 

Or is it just frustration that these cases — seen at the individual level — are just so small?

[B]ricklayers, grandmothers, college students, artists, church leaders and long-haul truckers who, by and large, have admitted to little more than illegally entering the Capitol... have [mostly] avoided incarceration, sentenced to probation or stints of home confinement. Others have received only modest sentences, ranging from a few weeks to a few months. In court, those accused of minor crimes have almost always expressed remorse, saying their behavior was foolish, embarrassing or out of character. Some have broken into tears or, in one case, physically collapsed. Others have vowed never to attend a political rally again.

236 comments:

1 – 200 of 236   Newer›   Newest»
John henry said...

As far as I can tell, from a word search of the entire US Code "sedition" is legal.

There is no law against it in the United States.

There is a law against "conspiracy to commit sedition" though.

Could one of our lawyers or law profs or other constitutional scholars explain how a conspiracy to commit a legal act can be illegal?

John LGBTQBNY Henry

gilbar said...

Prosecutors Move Quickly on Jan. 6 Cases, but Big Questions Remain

And, of Course; the Biggest Question is Who is Ray Epps?

John henry said...


Yes, 700+ people have been arrested for the things we saw happening before our eyes on January 6th,

But what have they been arrested for?

My understanding is that there are no charges. Again for lawyers etc, how is it legally possible to arrest someone without saying what specific law was violated.

It is scary, and Stalinist, to think that an American citizen can be arrested and jailed with no stated crime committed.

John LGBTQBNY Henry

Ann Althouse said...

"As far as I can tell, from a word search of the entire US Code "sedition" is legal."

From the article: "Passed in 2002 as part of the Sarbanes-Oxley Act, which sought to clamp down on corporate malfeasance, the ["obstruction" law relied on by prosecutors] was initially intended to prohibit things like shredding documents or tampering with witnesses in congressional inquiries. Defense lawyers have argued that prosecutors have stretched the law beyond its scope and used it to criminalize behavior that too closely resembles ordinary protest protected by the First Amendment."

Ann Althouse said...

The first cases will go to trial next month, and we will hear from the defense lawyers about freedom of speech and prosecutorial overreaching. So far it's just been pleading guilty.

It's distressing to see how little "liberals" care about freedom of speech and the rights of the criminally accused when they see their political enemies feeling the crush of government power.

Scot said...

When does 6A kick in, right to a speedy trial? I smell a rat.

David Begley said...

Over at Revolver News, in Part 2 of its January 6 story three people have been identified who have NOT been arrested. Ray Epps is one. A second guy had a bullhorn and was on top of a tower encouraging people to enter the Capital. A third guy removed barricades around the Capital. The third guy was also on a bus that parked in front of the DOJ building on January 5. On 1-6 he took down the barricades while Trump was still speaking so that when the main crowd walked over to the Capital, they could trespass and get close to the building with ease.

There is video tape of all three men committing “sedition.”

This was a Fed setup. Pelosi, Schumer and Wray organized this.

The NYT is FOS and completely dishonest.

wendybar said...

I stopped being a "liberal" when the Democrat party became more and more Marxist. Liberals today don't like America, and seem to want the Government to take over their lives because they think the Government can run it better than YOU. The MAN won.

wendybar said...

Some riots in the Capitol building are more equal than others.(All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.) See the Kavenaugh debacle and how THOSE protesters were treated.

RMc said...

It's distressing to see how little "liberals" care about freedom of speech and the rights of the criminally accused when they see their political enemies feeling the crush of government power.

They're not "liberals", they are hard-core leftists and statists. Boot, face, forever.

Actually, it's distressing that you don't know the difference.

Larvell said...

I’m trying to square “prosecutors move quickly” with “in the year since the assault.” How do those two phrases end up close to each other in the headline?

John henry said...

Ann,

Just wordsearched the entire text of Sarbanes Oxley. No sedition or any word beginning sedi

Obstruction would seem to be different from sedition.

What law prohibits sedition?

John LGBTQBNY Henry

Humperdink said...

AA: "So far it's just been pleading guilty."

Faced with financial ruin to fight the charges, it's no wonder most plead guilty. And if you choose to fight the charges, you will be in front of a prosecutorial friendly DC jury. Justice? I scoff.

Michael Byrd? Ray Epps? Clean as the wind driven snow.

rehajm said...

We must have all those ‘daycare abuse hunters’ from the 1990s still on the government payroll. This gives them something to do…

John henry said...



 Ann Althouse said...

The first cases will go to trial next month,

If they are going to trial, there must be some charges alleging violation of specific laws.

Does the article say what they are?

John LGBTQBNY Henry

michaele said...

I remember feeling such a disconnect while watching the early live video footage being shown on tv news vs what the desk anchors were saying. I saw people milling about in statuary hall, mostly staying within the velvet rope guides and Capitol Police smiling and chatting and, even, cordially waving new people into the area. The news casters were already talking about it as if it was a violent uprising. It all seemed odd. So, as words like "treason", "insurrection", "mob violence", "overthrowing the government" get used, my brain and gut are resistant.

rehajm said...

It's distressing to see how little "liberals" care about freedom of speech and the rights of the criminally accused when they see their political enemies feeling the crush of government power

Also unsurprising…

John henry said...

Seems to me that a real insurrection, as defined in the US Code took place in 1954 when Lolita LeBron et al shot up the capital in a quest for Puerto Rico independence.

There were words, motivation and deeds that fit the usc definition.

Yet nobody was charged.

Murder and assault, yes. But no insurrection.

John LGBTQBNY Henry

John henry said...

Lolita Lebron

Autocorrect is racist

Lewis Wetzel said...

In Modern Times, Paul Johnson tells us that after the October Revolution, the Bolsheviks kept the old legal traditions in place for several years. In that system you had to prove an individual had actually committed a specific crime.
This meant slow going when you want to throw hundreds of thousands into prison camps, so the Bolsheviks changed the constitution so that all you had to be convicted of was being a certain type of person, a counter-revolutionary, perhaps, or a kulak.
Similarly, the Dems would like to convict all of the 700 (except the gov't informants) of being seditionists or insurrectionists without actually having to prove that they committed an act of sedition or insurrection.

Ann Althouse said...

"Just wordsearched the entire text of Sarbanes Oxley. No sedition or any word beginning sedi Obstruction would seem to be different from sedition. What law prohibits sedition?"

Look for "seditious" and you'll find something that's mentioned in the "What is sedition?" article from last year:

"Current federal criminal code defines “seditious conspiracy” as an effort by two or more people “to conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof.”"

I was just trying to point you to the higher-level offense that is being charged (and that there is a problem with because it may conflict with free speech).

Amadeus 48 said...

"It's distressing to see how little "liberals" care about freedom of speech and the rights of the criminally accused when they see their political enemies feeling the crush of government power"

RMc above counters that these people are "hard-core leftists, statists." But what if they are not? Isn't Althouse referring to the virtuous liberals of her acquaintance in Madison, WI? Doesn't that make it worse?

Lewis Wetzel said...

I am getting a strong "Russian collusion conspiracy" vibe from this, especially the attempts to attach Trump as instigator and coordinator of the riot.
We have a highly partisan congressional committee selectively releasing tweets and testimony, always given out of context (meaning the committee gives the context). In particular this committee has a habit of releasing "bomb shell," or "smoking gun" documents that turn out to be nothing much at all.

tim in vermont said...

"There's "no public indication of the degree to which..."

Nobody knows what Mueller knows! Except, at the end of the day, Mueller's people had leaked everything they actually had, and it was not "next to nothing," it was "nothing."

tim in vermont said...

" or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder or delay the execution of any law of the United States,"

Does throwing fireworks into a Federal Court building count then? What about hindering the confirmation of a Supreme Court 'Just Us"?

Ann Althouse said...

@RMc

Your accusation against me ignores the quotation marks. That's not very nice of you.

tim in vermont said...

I remember from High School social studies that the founders never made sedition a crime, for a reason. Maybe Sarbanes Oxley can be used to look into the election shenanigans, sounds like the perfect tool for the job.

Mr. Forward said...

Yesterday major media decided Pelosi would resign after the election. Commemorating the January 6 Kerfuffle may have been her worst idea ever.

MartyH said...

Even the head judge overseeing the process is upset with the undercharging. From CNN, October 28th:

"The chief judge in Washington, DC's federal court laid into the Justice Department on Thursday for its "schizophrenic" and "puzzling" approach to January 6 cases, saying judges' hands are tied from giving hefty punishments because prosecutors keep offering misdemeanor deals to rioters.

Calling the insurrection the "crime of the century," Chief Judge Beryl Howell of DC District Court said prosecutors' charging decisions and their suggested punishments for some nonviolent rioters are "baffling" and "peculiar.""

Clearly she has made up her mind about the guilt and the severity of the accuseds' actions. I'm not a lawyer, but if I was on trial for one of these cases in a jurisdiction she oversees, I'd cite this article as prejudicial and ask for a change of venue.

rehajm said...

I can’t conclude the motivation- is it gratification with prosecution of your political opponents? Intent to silence opposition on social media? The need for a political boogeyman to draw attention away from their miserable policies? All of the above?

Most troublesome is the idea the prosecutions are to squelch opposition when they steal the elections (again) in 2022. I’m not sure they’re willing to break the filibuster to pass their crooked voter laws. They always jabber about doing it. They are closer than ever to doing it IMO. This has been priority one, HR1, for quite some time…

Bob Boyd said...

Sedition hunters or witch hunters?

zipity said...


I assume these same social justice warriors will be turning their attention to identifying the rioters that burned down cites across the country during the BLM/Antifa riots and turning them over to the FBI.

*snort*

Sure.....

Leland said...

Thank you, Ann, for answering the legal questions regarding sedition.

I'm concerned by the notion of "sedition hunters" finding people "online" that lead to the arrest of 700 people. Sounds like people that were not present at the Capitol at that moment acting as accusatory witnesses against people who may or may not have done anything wrong or even been at the Capitol.

Who are these "sedition hunters"? How are they able to associate 700 people to being at the Capitol involved in sedition, when the DoJ and the Capitol has limited access to images taken from Capitol hill cameras? Are these law enforcement officers, and if so, why are we calling them hunters? Sounds like a special and secret group of people. If their work is noble in protecting our country, shouldn't we know who they are?

Lewis Wetzel said...


A woman in Watertown, N.Y., has been charged with helping to steal a laptop from the office of House Speaker Nancy Pelosi during the Jan. 6 siege of the U.S. Capitol, and now one Alaska woman is breathing a little easier.

“I feel like a cloud lifted off of us,” said Marilyn Hueper, of Homer, “but I don’t necessarily wish that cloud on other people.”

The FBI raided Hueper’s home April 28. In a document supporting the search warrant, the authorities accused Hueper of being the woman in photo No. 225 — a dark haired woman in a black puffy coat photographed repeatedly inside the Capitol. The FBI said footage showed the woman helping to steal the laptop in Pelosi’s office.

Hueper has always maintained it was a case of mistaken identity. She acknowledges she and the woman in the photo were wearing similar coats and have similar hair, but she notes that their earlobes are different, and she said she doesn’t own a sweater remotely like the one the woman in the photograph was wearing.

https://www.alaskapublic.org/2021/10/05/cloud-lifted-for-homer-woman-someone-else-is-said-to-be-puffy-coated-capitol-intruder-who-took-pelosi-laptop/

Bob Boyd said...

It is distressing.

Many life-long liberals I know changed some of their core values 180 degrees in the Trump years without even seeming to realize it.

wendybar said...

History repeating itself.

Mea Sententia said...

If a crowd of Biden supporters had entered the Capitol that day to protest the reelection of Trump, they would have been looked on as sympathetically and charitably as all the 2020 protesters were. And few would have been arrested.

Howard said...

Black people are treated this way and worse by the criminal justice system every stinking day in City Town and county in the United States.

All the while you people chortle with Glee and superiority about their low character their low IQ and how they bring it all down on themselves it's their fault has nothing to do with slavery reconstruction Jim Crow lynching poll taxes segregation and other forms of repression since time immemorial.

Pay back is a mother fucker, isn't it. You're only saving grace is the Democrats are over playing their hand in the media with this one. They should just keep their mouth shut and let the full weight of the Federal criminal Justice system land on those seditious cowards.

Mr Wibble said...

I'm concerned by the notion of "sedition hunters" finding people "online" that lead to the arrest of 700 people. Sounds like people that were not present at the Capitol at that moment acting as accusatory witnesses against people who may or may not have done anything wrong or even been at the Capitol.
--------------

Apparently a number of them were young women who used dating apps to find men who posted pictures of themselves at the rally, or claimed in conversations to have been at the protests, and then snitched to the feds.

Which tells you a lot about modern women and modern dating.

Václav Patrik Šulik said...

I'm wondering what the first commenter searched. It's plain as day.

18 U.S. Code CHAPTER 115—TREASON, SEDITION, AND SUBVERSIVE ACTIVITIES

Meade said...

“All the while you people chortle with Glee and superiority about their low character their low IQ and how they bring it all down on themselves it's their fault has nothing to do with slavery reconstruction Jim Crow lynching poll taxes segregation and other forms of repression since time immemorial. “

Who do you mean by “you people,” Howard?

Freder Frederson said...

It's distressing to see how little "liberals" care about freedom of speech and the rights of the criminally accused when they see their political enemies feeling the crush of government power.

The exact same thing can be said about "conservatives". Does it distress you when you read comments on your blog advocating shoot to kill orders at BLM protests, or several paragraphs (by an attorney no less) discussing the best ammunition to kill protesters with, or Achilles fantasizing about hanging liberals from lampposts?

Many of the commenters here just love get tough policies by the police and prison system.

And back in the day, you were unconcerned about the use of torture by the Bush administration.

Mike (MJB Wolf) said...

Pay back is a mother fucker, isn't it.

Outstanding analysis if you have yet to read any history! Since all your examples are racist policies of Democrats over the years please explain how Democrats overreaching on the sedition issue and failure of their insurrection charges to stick to any protesters is “pay back,” because there is a logic disconnect between your rant and your declaration. Of course if you wait until the next Speaker is sworn in maybe you’ll learn what payback is.

Clyde said...

Free the J6 Political Prisoners!

End the American Gulag in DC!

Bob Boyd said...

The authorities and the media set a new standard for what is acceptable in political protest with their sympathetic treatment of the BLM riots all summer.
When some anti-election fraud protestors adopted the new standard, guess what? It was a double standard.

Howard said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Howard said...

All those Democrats and all the descendants from those Democrats from back in the day in the South are now by bible banging Republicans.

Balfegor said...

Others have vowed never to attend a political rally again.

If prosecutors or courts are trying to elicit this as part of the theatre of remorse expected in criminal prosecutions, that is grotesquely unacceptable.

Achilles said...

Howard said...


Pay back is a mother fucker, isn't it.

You are right about that.

Howard and his democrat allies are acting like Nazi's because racism. And that makes it OK to Howard.

Classic.

After Democrats get wiped out in the 2022 midterm I expect a lot of these J6 prisoners to be in front of congress talking about what happened on J6.

I wouldn't be surprised of Byrd and Epps get to testify.

I expect some J6 protesters on the Joe Rogan show where orders of magnitude more people will see them speak than watch nightly cable news.

Payback will be a bitch.

Bob Boyd said...

@ Freder

Is that supposed to make it less distressing?

Sebastian said...

"the usual criminal procedure is followed"

Being held without bail for more than a year for nonviolent offenses is "usual"?

farmgirl said...

I was hopeful- may again be hopeful- but, there’s not room for discussion of facts w/people these days. This morning my husband brought up tomorrow’s anniversary and the breeder(AI stands for more than intelligence in this case(in more ways than one)) jumped down my throat w/a “you people” screed of his own. Yiye yiye.

I want discussion- I want cards on the table. This year has been bullshit and I never knew so many underhanded, downright illegal things could take place- visibly!! Oh sure- rumored grift, graft- getting the shaft; but, blatantly? Unreal.

After the years of kabuki we’ve been through w/no stones left unturned- trying to take out Trump- it continues.
I wonder what tomorrow will bring?

Thank you very much for keeping this issue of “insurrection” or “sedition” alive today and this week, Althouse. It’s sad to see that even Justice can be redefined in this great country to mean something other that it’s True meaning…

Achilles said...

Freder Frederson said...


The exact same thing can be said about "conservatives". Does it distress you when you read comments on your blog advocating shoot to kill orders at BLM protests, or several paragraphs (by an attorney no less) discussing the best ammunition to kill protesters with, or Achilles fantasizing about hanging liberals from lampposts?

You aren't liberals.

You are fascists.

You support jailing people without bail or charges. You support censorship.

Your actions prove it.

And you should be treated as such.

Jamie said...

I suppose Howard has a point in that miscegenation was also a "crime" once upon a time. The white Americans currently imprisoned or awaiting trial on absurdly broad, absurdly minor, or absurdly absent charges are indeed receiving "payback" for their kind's historical abuse of black Americans.

Of course, I did think we live - or lived, anyway - in a country that doesn't go in for the "sins of the father" thing, much less a "sins of the people who superficially resemble but don't even share a philosophical affiliation with the father" thing.

And of course, it's a little hard to recognize a link between poll taxes and literacy requirements and accusations of sedition. But sure. It's "payback."

Achilles said...

Sebastian said...

"the usual criminal procedure is followed"

Being held without bail for more than a year for nonviolent offenses is "usual"?

Just the usual Althouse prevarication.

"Cruel Neutrality" leads to dishonesty because it she looked at what is actually happening she would have to condemn the fascists.

Freder Frederson said...

You support jailing people without bail or charges. You support censorship.

Your actions prove it.


Even if this were true, and it is nothing but rank libel and defamation, how is advocating executing people without bail or charges (and I assume if you are hanging people from light poles you are not interested in formalities like formal charges or trial)?

SteveWe said...

@Howard

Please define what a "lynching poll" is. Or, are commas optional features of your keyboard?

Freder Frederson said...

Being held without bail for more than a year for nonviolent offenses is "usual"?

Actually, and unfortunately, it is quite common. There are people who sit for years in jails all over this country (Rikers in New York and Orleans Parish Prison are particularly notorious examples) before they go to trial.

Wilbur said...

Howard, believing himself the champion of Black criminals, unwittingly reveals his racism of low expectations.

Most crimes by Blacks are committed against their racial brothers and sisters. The honest, good people in the Black community are victimized as much by excuse-happy Leftists - I'm looking at you Howard - as by the criminals themselves.

Sebastian said...

"It's distressing to see how little "liberals" care about freedom of speech and the rights of the criminally accused when they see their political enemies feeling the crush of government power."

It's nice of you to still feel a capacity for being distressed. It's also a little late for that. "Liberals" have cared about freedom of speech only insofar as it served their own purposes: it was a tool, and no more. Useful for unions and communists, not so much now. The rights of the accused are similarly situational: the right people have rights, others not so much.

It's not distressing to progs: witness their glee. Making their political enemies feel the crush of government power has been their summum bonum since 1789. The attempt to crush is the essence of progressivism.

tim in vermont said...

If an anonymous internet commenter can suggest it, it’s fine for the FBI to do it. Got it.

Temujin said...

I'm sorry. I cannot get past the "Prosecutors move quickly". It's been a year. People have been arrested and not charged. They are being held in the worst kind of prison environment. Solitary. Little access to hot water to clean. Little food. Lack of medical care. And a few of them have been beaten severely. This is not "justice". This is get-back-at-youism at its best. The gall of these people protesting at the Capitol and not simply burning down Minneapolis or Dallas or Seattle or Chicago.

There is a reason they have yet to 'hang' any of these people. This will be a circus of a show trial once it begins.

Howard said...

Being cute and coy isn't a good look, Meade.

I thought of you last night. It was my first time back at the local college pool with my swim team. Because the school swimming and diving team and local children's swim team works out there they have a vaccine requirement. I was happy to provide that documentation in order to make all of the parents for all of those college teen and tweener kids feel secure about their charges returning to normal life.

As we waited to go in the pool, I chatted with my Israeli friends and we shared stories of the vaccine gauntlet during induction to boot camp getting shot up assembly line style. We were very perplexed how seemingly normal intelligent modern Americans could be so heavily influenced by crazy rumors conspiracy theories and con men.

You people.

Freder Frederson said...

Is that supposed to make it less distressing?

No it isn't. I am just pointing out Althouse's rank hypocrisy when she criticizes "liberals" but does not take umbrage when "conservatives" advocate the same, or worse, for their opponents.

MadTownGuy said...

Ann Althouse said...

["As far as I can tell, from a word search of the entire US Code "sedition" is legal."]

"From the article: "Passed in 2002 as part of the Sarbanes-Oxley Act, which sought to clamp down on corporate malfeasance, the ["obstruction" law relied on by prosecutors] was initially intended to prohibit things like shredding documents or tampering with witnesses in congressional inquiries. Defense lawyers have argued that prosecutors have stretched the law beyond its scope and used it to criminalize behavior that too closely resembles ordinary protest protected by the First Amendment."

Why wasn't Hillary Clinton prosecuted under SOX? Just wondering. Oh, wait...

Butkus51 said...

Who is Ray Epps? Why did he get off? What wasnt he arrested? He's on tape numerous times that day.

Reichstag Fire, nothing more. Next comes Hitler.

And thats how they get ya.

Achilles said...

Freder Frederson said...

You support jailing people without bail or charges. You support censorship.

Your actions prove it.

Even if this were true, and it is nothing but rank libel and defamation, how is advocating executing people without bail or charges (and I assume if you are hanging people from light poles you are not interested in formalities like formal charges or trial)?

You support censorship. That is unambiguous.

You support these people being jailed without charges. That is unambiguous.



And isn't it interesting how Freder cannot differentiate between people commenting on a comment board and the actions of the entire federal apparatus supported by trillions of taxpayer dollars?

How long did Freder and his leftist allies cling to the blood libel that protestors killed Officer Sicknick? The entire media pushed that lie.

And you shitheads have never apologized for it. All the people pushing for the jailing of these people without charges have been caught lying repeatedly.

You are a fascist.

The definition of.

stlcdr said...

Ann Althouse said...
...

It's distressing to see how little "liberals" care about freedom of speech and the rights of the criminally accused when they see their political enemies feeling the crush of government power.

1/5/22, 6:46 AM

If Trump did anything it was to expose "liberals" (sic) for the totalitarians they actually are.

Iman said...

“It's distressing to see how little "liberals" care about freedom of speech and the rights of the criminally accused when they see their political enemies feeling the crush of government power.”

It’s infuriating. The people pimping this clownish Jan 6 riot as “insurrection” are malevolent scum and they can take their mincing “Muh Democracy” and stuff it.

Cancel my subscription to your insurrection, Democrat shitheels.

stlcdr said...

Ann Althouse said...
...
Look for "seditious" and you'll find something that's mentioned in the "What is sedition?" article from last year:

"... to prevent, hinder or delay the execution of any law of the United States, ..."


1/5/22, 7:24 AM


Woa, woa, woah...so, who is currently preventing the execution of laws? Keeping people imprisoned without trial, or even accusation of a crime?

Iman said...

“All those Democrats and all the descendants from those Democrats from back in the day in the South are now by bible banging Republicans.”

He is the asshole in Masshole.

Joe Smith said...

Arrest people for trespassing?

Sure, if you must.

But letting them rot in jail for more than a year without a trial is goddamn un-American.

At this point they are political prisoners.

Ask Ray Epps...he'll tell you.

Joe Smith said...

'Black people are treated this way and worse by the criminal justice system every stinking day in City Town and county in the United States.'

No they aren't. Most don't even have to post bail in big cities.

Too many idiot, liberal, white lawyers ready to take their cases for free.

Liar.

Balfegor said...

Re: Freder:

Does it distress you when you read comments on your blog advocating shoot to kill orders at BLM protests

I don't know exactly which comments you are thinking of here, but at least from my perspective, "protests" is a mischaracterisation and elides a key factor. I regularly alude to the Riot Act and Peterloo in connection with riots (and may have done with regard to the Capitol Riot too). There's a big difference.

Shoot to kill at actually peaceful protests (not the famous "mostly peaceful protests" that are really violent riots) would be unacceptable. On the other hand, once there has been a clear warning and order to disperse, "shoot to kill" at a violent riot where rioters are attacking people, attacking government facilities (cf. Portland), or firebombing civilian buildings is not unreasonable.

And individuals caught in a violent riot should have the right to defend themselves and their property, with lethal force if need be. But it really should never come to that in a well governed state. The government should have stepped in earlier to suppress public disorder, rather than retreating and letting rioters rampage, the way they did in LA during the riots. Or have done in response to BLM/Antifa riots in 2020. And indeed, although vastly less destructive, in response to the Capitol riot. Had the police been properly prepared and moved in force at the outset, it would have been over in what, 15 minutes?

iowan2 said...



We have learned the DoJ, FBI had hundreds of armed agents with shoot to kiil authority on site Jan .

vs you whining about anonymous internet chatter.

Charlie said...

Ray Epps could not be reached for comment.

Meade said...

“We were very perplexed how seemingly normal intelligent modern Americans could be so heavily influenced by crazy rumors conspiracy theories and con men. You people.“

Howard just pointed with his thumb…

Mike (MJB Wolf) said...

A good dose of PragerU could help with anyone having trouble understanding why “Liberals” are not defending free speech and due process. The problem starts with a misunderstanding about the Left. The Left has completely abandoned Liberal ideals and simultaneously taken over the Democrat party. The Left is in pursuit of power at all costs and has no time for democracy or opposing ideas of governance. Liberals will often support Leftists but no Leftists are Liberal in any sense of the word. In that sense one can see how Bernie and the Squad seem to be more in charge of our government than the guy who “won” in 2020. Joe still rambles on about reaching across the aisle and working with klan members in the Senate but his kind is obsolete. No one in his party will stand up for due process or free speech or any other classically Liberal tradition. Just witness Shumer who vigorously defended the filibuster in 2005 vow to blow it up in 2022 not because its being used now but because it stands in the Left’s way in their pursuit of power.

rcocean said...

If you've committed a non-violent crime there is no need to 'Balance the need for a speedy trial vs. incaceration". You let them go on bail. Again, notice the difference. EVERY Trump supporter (less FBI Assets) who trespassed into the Capital and did NOT fight with the police, must be hunted down and punished. Some are still in jail awaiting trial.

Meanwhile, those who attacked the white house and the federal Buildings in Portland with fire bombs and violence, are let out on bail or simply let go. Antifa isn't an organization, its just a myth.

Two justice systems. Not equality under the law. As Bob Dole croaked "where's the outrage?". Where's the ACLU. Where are the so-called Civil Libertarians? Oh wait, that was just a Leftwing pose. Now that its someone they don't like, Civil Liberties don't matter.

jim5301 said...

An outdoor protest turned into an indoor protest. "That was as bad as it was" Are you fucking serious Ann? Tell that to the over 150 officers injured that day. Some have not fully recovered. Oh and a handful of people died including several cops who committed suicide. The mob riot lasted almost six hours. They would have killed elected officials if they had the chance don't you think? Look up Herd Mentality on Wikipedia.

I assume you have watched videos so I conclude that you are intentionally lying to engrain yourself with your right-wing audience. Sort of like when you said that Trump and fellow speakers at the morning rally incited a peaceful protest.

You think someone who touches you or violates your personal space without your permission is committing a terrible wrong. But beating the shit out of someone with a flag stick is no different than breaking and entering?

rcocean said...

Never forget that the whole Republican Establishment, George Bush, mIttens, Mitch McConnell, Miss Lindsey, Kevin McCarthy is on the side of those hunting down Trump protesters and punishing them, and the two types of Justice.

None of them have spoken out about the killing of Ashli Babbitt, some of them have defended it. None of them have spoken against BLM/ANtifa getting a pass. None of them have demanded bail for the protesters. THe only exception are a few Congressmen led by MTG.

THe DC Republican tolerated Trump because they had to, and now they want to go back to being "Beautiful losers" racking in the Big Donor money and offering token resistance to the D's.

Mike Sylwester said...

I spent a lot of time studying videos that show the shooting of Ashli Babbitt inside the Capitol Building.

Two men were obvious agitators, and their faces appear in videos. I don't know their real names, but they have been given the nicknames Rufio and Yellow.

Yellow gave a metal helmet to Rufio, who then used the helmet to begin pounding on glass windows. Four security officials were standing in front of those windows. As soon as Rufio began pounding on the glass windows, the four officials departed.

Rufio knocked out one of the windows, and Babbitt began climbing through it. As she was doing so, she apparently was shot.

If anybody should be arrested, Rufio and Yellow should be arrested as a very high priority. Maybe they have been arrested, but I have not seen any news reports about either of them.

My Questions About the Ashli Babbitt Incident

tim in vermont said...

"But beating the shit out of someone with a flag stick is no different than breaking and entering?"

Those guys should go to prison, did 700 people do that?

Achilles said...

rcocean said...

Never forget that the whole Republican Establishment, George Bush, mIttens, Mitch McConnell, Miss Lindsey, Kevin McCarthy is on the side of those hunting down Trump protesters and punishing them, and the two types of Justice.

They were also big fans of Obama siccing the IRS on the Tea Party.

Never let there be doubt about who these people are and who they work for.

The worst people in DC are Republicans.

tim in vermont said...

The people who used green lasers to damage the eyesight of Federal Agents in Portland should go to prison too, but no, they are all let go after a short while, putting the bail money that people donated at the behest of Kamala Harris in their pocket on the way out the door.

Achilles said...

Howard said...

We were very perplexed how seemingly normal intelligent modern Americans could be so heavily influenced by crazy rumors conspiracy theories and con men.

You people.


The vaccine does not stop you from getting Covid or transmitting it to others.

This is proven and unambiguous.

You believe that unvaccinated people are "getting their funk" on you pure vaccinated people.

Pfizer made record profits last year with these "vaccines" that don't actually vaccinate.

I know this might be confusing to someone as dumb as you. You are the one that is being conned.

You are just making yourself look really stupid with these posts.

Marcus Bressler said...

Howard believes that myth about racist Democrats becoming racist Republicans. Not only are Dems racist while looking at the past 150 years but indeed now, by supporting segregation and advantages to POC (and specifically restricting whites to certain things such as medical treatments), they are the Racists of Today.
Bwahahahahaha.

Spiros said...

What roles does private prosecution have in American law? Can aggrieved citizens, i.e., sedition hunters, initiate a case by official complaint and then take responsibility for seeing it to completion. A citizen's arrest AND prosecution.

Douglas B. Levene said...

There is no crime of sedition. There is a crime titled “seditious conspiracy” but it in fact does not target “sedition,” which includes encouraging opposition to the government, but instead it punishes conspiracies to “overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government” or to “to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States.” You could argue that the ringleaders of the January 6 riots were guilty of seditious conspiracy, but the evidence is weak, which is why such charges have not been brought. So far, all we know is that a handful of far right activists had a vague idea of breaking in to the Capitol to do something, it’s not clear what. Protest? Scare Pence into violating his oath? Murder Pence? Presumably the DOJ doesn’t believe it has proof beyond a reasonable doubt of intent to overthrow the government or to prevent the execution of any law, or it would have brought seditious conspiracy charges.

Now if evidence were to be discovered that the Trump camp knew in advance about the plans to invade the Capitol and encouraged such plans, then I think DOJ would be charging the relevant persons (potentially including Trump) at the least with conspiracy to obstruct Congress and, depending on what the evidence of their intent was, with seditious conspiracy. No such evidence has come to light and I personally doubt any will.

RoseAnne said...

In the first days of the riots triggered by the death of George Floyd, I saw two videos that have stayed with me since. One was a self-identified African American mother who walked through what was left of her local grocery store. In tears, she asked where she was going to get food for her kids. She knew from experience what was likely to happen. IF the store chose to fix the considerable damage, higher prices were certain. If it closed, her only choice to get to a decent store was by bus. The second video was of a African American woman approaching a car with four white 20's somethings. They were handing out bricks to show their "solidarity". Her first words were "Why are you trying to get young black men killed?".

While prior to the riots in 2020, we were told the neighborhoods were "food desserts" and the difficulties related to health care. The riots could not have improved the situation. What is the situation in those communities of poverty now post-riot? Has all the damage been fixed? Why hasn't the media followed up?

If you live in one of those communities - some of which experienced weeks of riots, what would be your reaction to the media coverage of the hours-long US Capitol riot and the efforts to hunt down anyone who may have participated?

Douglas B. Levene said...

@Spiros: Private prosecution of criminal laws has no role in the federal system. Private individuals cannot initiate or prosecute federal criminal cases. I don’t know about the states.

jim5301 said...

Tim -

Dozens are charged with assault. Look at the US Attorney searchable website on the defendants at https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/capitol-breach-cases. Also, you are allowed to believe your eyes even if it goes against the official party line.

I find it difficult to believe the BLM rioters who assaulted law enforcement officers were "all let go", by the Trump administration no less. I assume you have a reliable source for that information? And I don't consider Marjorie Greene Taylor's twitter page a reliable source.

Ray - SoCal said...

The DOJ is deliberately slow walking the release of videos.

Why?

It seems the capital police deliberately provoked protesters by attacking women and using flash bombs.

Surveillance Video Shows D.C. Police Beating Women on January 6

Michael K said...

I assume you have watched videos so I conclude that you are intentionally lying to engrain yourself with your right-wing audience.

jim must have skipped over the video of Ray Epps and his team taking down "closed" signs and rolling up chain link fence to conceal the fact that they had been there. A woman was beaten to death in the Capitol tunnel and the "news" reported she died of a meth overdose. He also missed the video of beatings of peaceful protestors outside the Capitol.

Field Marshal Freder is going to provide us with a list of all those prisoners' names held without bail awaiting trial for a year in Rikers Island.

Shooting looters has been the way of stopping looting in disasters and riots since guns were invented. Usually, threats to do so stopped looting.

Ceciliahere said...

If the Jan 6 crowd had been BLM, Kamala Harris would be bailing them out. But in this case, there is no bail for white people. These white people do not have the same rights as repeat criminals (rapists, murderers, child molesters) in the urban centers of America. I never thought I would see such a travesty committed by our government. The democrats were instrumental in the breaching of the Capitol since the building was not adequately staffed with Capitol police. Leader Pelosi made sure it would be easy for the protestors to walk in and the Jan 6 crowd fell into the trap. It was entrapment! The current democrat leaders and followers are the real danger to our country by causing racial division and judicial inequality among citizens. History will not treat this current group of politicians well. In my view, the leftist progressive pols and their allies in government, media, etc. are not loyal Americans but power hungry, money grubbing criminals who are hanging on to their power no matter how detrimental it is to our country. This will eventually come to an end when they are thrown out of office in Nov. Then there will be hearings in congress but nothing will come of these. Nothing ever happens to the real perpetrators of sedition. Still waiting to hear from Durham to name the people who plotted and are responsible for the Russia hoax and all the other phony scandals

Michael K said...

"jim" is at it again.

I find it difficult to believe the BLM rioters who assaulted law enforcement officers were "all let go", by the Trump administration no less.

The feds had no role, at the choice of the governors who refused aid from Trump.

I'll bet you know that and just had to get Trump into your comment.

Greg The Class Traitor said...

They broke in where they weren't allowed.

No, they didn't. There is clear video of the police officers on the scene telling them they could go in, just don't vandalize.

You're caught in a blue lie

This one could even be BlueAnnon

jim5301 said...

Michael K - We were talking about federal officers. See Tim's email. I think it is a federal crime to assault fed officers. I bet you knew that.

jim5301 said...

Also, I find it hard to believe that local prosecutors did not charge people for assaulting local police officers. Any cite you can provide?

hombre said...

The alternate reality of NYT leftmediaswine: “Prosecutors move quickly ....”

Ask the political prisoners being held without bail in the QuidProJoe/Garland banana republic as the one-year anniversary of their egregious but minor crimes approaches.

Big Mike said...

What do they teach in history classes these days? I was in grade school in the late 1950s when I learned that the Alien and Sedition Acts signed into law by John Adams led to a total repudiation of his party, the Federalists, in subsequent elections. Likewise the Sedition Act of 1918 signed into law by Woodrow Wilson, along with Wilson’s “Red Raids,” resulted in a wipeout of the Democrats in 1920 and for many elections thereafter.

Of course I left grade school more than six decades ago. I’m sure the curriculum has been dumbed down since.

Ray - SoCal said...

The Feds seem to have a long history of agitators / informants at Demonstrations / protests.

I was astonished at the 1 in 6 at the Chicago Democratic Convention protest mentioned in the revolver article.

The Whitmer “kidnapping” was about 50% Fbi informants:
WATCHING THE WATCHMEN - Buzzfeed News

Part 2 of the Revolver Article about the agitators at Jan 6 that were not charged:
Meet Ray Epps, Part 2: Damning New Details Emerge Exposing Massive Web Of Unindicted Operators At The Heart Of January 6


- Revolver News

Yancey Ward said...

"All those Democrats and all the descendants from those Democrats from back in the day in the South are now by bible banging Republicans."

You dumb fuck- sins of the fathers, Howard?

Ray - SoCal said...

Amazing the double standards…

Portland Antifa rioter charged with assaulting police has case dismissed after 30 hours community service - Yshoo News

Or the Trump inauguration riots vs Jan 6:
Government drops charges against all inauguration protesters - nbc news

Yancey Ward said...

Arrests for bodily assault, trespass, and property damage are ok with me for the January 6th protesters. However, that isn't what is going on here- these are political persecutions for most of the arrested. Anyone arrested for those crimes would have been quickly bailed and had the bail posted- even for the most serious of the crimes we know were charged, the assaults on some of the Capitol police. You don't hold someone in jail for a fucking year without bail for trespass or property damage. The US now has a poltical gulag. I am ashamed to call myself an American.

Howard said...

As they say, Yancey: If the foo shits, wear it. The change occured due to Reagan's southern strategy by appealing to Dixie democrats' racism as blessed by Jesus hisself.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_strategy

tim in vermont said...

I guess if jim finds it difficult to believe, it never happened.

“KOIN 6 News’ analysis found nearly 91% of cases have been dismissed or no complained and are listed as “closed” in online court records. Schmidt cautioned against using that number, saying his office is still deciding whether to follow up on those cases.

But when asked if it was likely charges would be reinstituted within the statute of limitations, Schmidt admitted, “The vast majority, no, it’s not likely to happen. The vast majority of those are going to fall within our policy parameters of no evidence of harm or damage.”


It turns out that 9 out of ten of the Portland rioters did not commit assaults "serious" enough to prosecute. The seriousness of the assault is solely in the eye of the local district attorney.

Of those charged with assault on J6, prove it and put them in prison. Don't kid yourself though that much of the violence on J6 goes back to looking the other way as cities like Minneapolis and Portland burned in "mostly peaceful" protests.

Howard said...

Achilles: stupid versus you people is a relative genius

tim in vermont said...

Wikipedia is the place for the straight dope on all matters political.

Yancey Ward said...

The only shit is on you, Howard.

Kevin said...

Mia : Who's Antoine?

Vincent : Tony Rocky Horror. You know him.

Mia : Fell out of a window.

Vincent : Hmm, hmm. Well, that is one way to say it. Another way to say it would be that he was thrown out. Another way would be that he was thrown out by Marcellus. And yet even another way to say it was that he was thrown out of the window by Marcellus because of you.

Mia : Is that a fact?

Vincent : No, no. It's not a fact, it's just what I heard. It's just what I heard.

Mia : Who told you?

Vincent : They.

Mia : They talk a lot, don't they?

Vincent : They certainly do. They certainly do.

Howard said...

The deflection to Black and Antifa transgressions isn't a defense against the Jan 6th attempt to change the vote of Congress by force.

This is exactly how a six year old defends himself when covered in cookie crumbs.

Paul Zrimsek said...

What's needed here is a prosecutor swap. Send all these Washington hardasses to Chicago to crack down on the gangbangers, while Kim Foxx comes to Washington to let all the protesters go.

Howard said...

Fine Yancey. I worked in sewers and toxic waste dumps my entire career. Those are the places you find out where all the bodies are buried

Rob Crawford said...

Does it distress you when you read comments on your blog advocating shoot to kill orders at BLM protests

Arsonists, those throwing bombs, and others resorting to violence deserve nothing less.

Critter said...

The real sedition was (and is) from the Democrat-controlled DOJ/FBI and Capitol Hill police controlled by Pelosi. If there is justice, when Trump wins in 2024 he will appoint a special prosecutor (like Durham) to get out all the facts and prosecute those involved in leading the storming of the Capitol and inviting people inside. Also abuse of power in the excessive tactics used in arresting and incarcerating people. Such things cannot stand in a country with individual rights prohibiting them.

Drago said...

Doug Levene: "..Now if evidence were to be discovered that the Trump camp knew in advance about the plans to invade the Capitol and encouraged such plans,.."

"the plans"

Assumes facts not in evidence, or perhaps you can provide a link to these "plans to invade the Capital"?

You're a lawyer, are you not?

Lewis Wetzel said...

"The deflection to Black and Antifa transgressions isn't a defense against the Jan 6th attempt to change the vote of Congress by force."

I thought that it was an attempt to show that you (Howard) were not making a point in good faith.
If so, it worked.

Drago said...

Howard: "The deflection to Black and Antifa transgressions isn't a defense against the Jan 6th attempt to change the vote of Congress by force."

LOLOLOLOLOLOL

Given the democraticals have nothing else to offer come Nov '22, I suspect this lunatic rhetoric will pale by comparison to what the Russia Russia Russia conspiracy crowd will say next.

Howard said...

https://newrepublic.com/article/158320/western-origins-southern-strategy

https://www.salon.com/2013/10/27/reagans_southern_strategy_gave_rise_to_the_tea_party/


hombre said...

Howard: “Black people are treated this way and worse by the criminal justice system every stinking day in City Town and county in the United States.”

Oh, bullshit! Cite examples, please, of instances where black people without priors have been held without bail for unarmed offenses.

More Howard: “All the while you people chortle with Glee and superiority about their low character their low IQ and how they bring it all down on themselves it's their fault has nothing to do with slavery reconstruction Jim Crow lynching poll taxes segregation and other forms of repression since time immemorial.“

More bullshit! The only people chortling with glee are you lefties who trade ambition-killing welfare for votes, pander to black activists and ignore black victims of black crime in favor of the “it’s not black criminals fault because ...” meme. Let’s see. What was it LBJ said?

Rob Crawford said...

An outdoor protest turned into an indoor protest. "That was as bad as it was" Are you fucking serious Ann? Tell that to the over 150 officers injured that day. Some have not fully recovered.

This concern would be touching if it were also extended to those injured by BLM. Antifa, etc. riots. Blinded by lasers, injured by bombs, burnt by arsonists..

Skeptical Voter said...

They've been looking for a year--and what have they found? Bupkis.

That is aside from a number of people who have been held without bail, and without trial for almost a year. Who knew there was something like a political Gulag on the banks of the Potomac?

Rob Crawford said...

Howard, the "Southern Strategy" is a BS lie pushed by the left. Stop citing leftists as if they're neutral reporters and not the ones pushing a myth they profit from.

Drago said...

Howard: "Achilles: stupid versus you people is a relative genius"

I was hoping Howard might provide another example of his Dunning Kruger-ness and voila!

There it is!

Danke.

jim5301 said...

Tim - All that shows is that they arrested more people than they charged. I assume because they didn't have sufficient evidence to obtain a conviction, Nothing from your source says otherwise.

Show me a case where they had sufficient evidence to obtain a conviction against someone for assaulting a federal agent or local police officer and yet refused to prosecute them. Since apparently this was the policy throughout the country, I trust you can cite to at least one such case?

Drago said...

Howard links the New Republic which references Salon to supposedly prove a point!

LOL

As explained to Howard about a hundred times before, all you have to do to put the lie to The Great Party Switch-Big Lie is look up when the republicans took control of southern state Houses and Senates.

If you do you will see it took 40 years, 40 YEARS!, for republicans to take control of southern state governance...after decades of business growth, migration to the south, decades of democratical corruption and, most importantly, the dying off of the Yellow Dog Democrats who NEVER switched parties from dem to rep.

But that would require Howard to spend 5 minutes looking that stuff up....and that minimal level of intellectual discipline simply isnt in the cards for our dopey Howard, is it?

Anonymous said...

This entire phony "insurrection" was of course cooked up in Nancy Pelosi's office and executed by her stasi--the "FBI."

You know it, I know it, the American People know it--we all know it.

He who says Nancy Pelosi, says Adolf Hitler. He who says FBI, says Stasi.

Greg The Class Traitor said...

Prosecutors Move Quickly on Jan. 6 Cases, but Big Questions Remain
If they were "moving quickly", then there wouldn't be 700 people still being held prisoner without being charged

Working with information from online sleuths who style themselves as 'Sedition Hunters,' the authorities have made more than 700 arrests — with little sign of slowing down.
So, this is about arresting people who you can't actually charge with anything?
You want to see an authoritarian abuse of power? Look right here

Overworked courts have tried to balance the laborious exchange of discovery materials with speedy trial protections and to manage the bleak conditions at Washington’s local jails where some defendants are being held without bail. They have also faced a fundamental, underlying tension: how to mete out justice on an individual level to hundreds of defendants who together helped form a violent mob.

"Violent mob"? Hmm, I wonder what New York Times thinks is the right way to deal with the George Floyd "violent mobs"? I wonder what they think should be done with teh Antifa violent mob in Portland.

Oh, wait, we know, because when Trump went after that violent mob, the NYT was completely opposed to the arrest

In other words, the usual criminal procedure is followed. What's the "tension"? That in the United States, criminal defendants are individuals, with individual rights? What is that in tension with? The desire for a mass trial, a kangaroo court, a lynching?
You have correctly answered your own question.

Now, what are you going to do about it? Are you going to continue to associate with the pro-lynching side? Are you going to remain silent? Or are you going to oppose them?

If you missed the 60s Civil Rights movement, this is your chance to oppose a Lynch mob. What will you do?

Greg The Class Traitor said...

Howard said...
As they say, Yancey: If the foo shits, wear it. The change occured due to Reagan's southern strategy by appealing to Dixie democrats' racism as blessed by Jesus hisself.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_strategy


Howard demonstrates his great intellect by saying "I read it in Wikipedia, so it must be true!"

Are you 12? Because I know that every decent high school and college teaches people not to be that stupid

Anonymous said...

Who is this "Howard" person?

He's not very bright, is he.....

GRW3 said...

Imagine how you would feel if you were someone whose business was looted or was hurt (or a friend/family member) in the "mostly peaceful" riots in 2020. They have spared no expense to round up as many people, mostly trespassers, involved in the 1/6 debacle as possible but have hardly lifted a finger to provide justice to the victims of the various Antifa/BLM riots, even when the criminals were arrested.

theBuckWheat said...

Given how many defendants have been abused by their pre-trial incarceration, the legal system in effect has conducted an insurrection-by-neglect against the principles of speedy trial and equal protection, especially compared to the treatment of activists who protested in DC at Trump's inauguration. I am shocked at the animus the entire federal establishment has shown to the Jan 6 participants.

I am also shocked at the number of federal agent agitators and participants in the riot. I am shocked that people who were clearly allowed by the Capital Police to enter a forbidden zone were still charged with trespass. Clearly some came to the event to commit as much riot as possible. Clearly most where not there with violent intent. But too many observers don't care to make the distinction. Off with their heads, or so it seems.

Ewin Barnett

Greg The Class Traitor said...

Ann Althouse said...
The first cases will go to trial next month, and we will hear from the defense lawyers about freedom of speech and prosecutorial overreaching. So far it's just been pleading guilty.

That's because so far it's just been charging people with minor offenses with no real punishment, like "unlawful “parading” inside the Capitol": https://shipwreckedcrew.substack.com/p/january-6th-prosecutions-collapsed

It's distressing to see how little "liberals" care about freedom of speech and the rights of the criminally accused when they see their political enemies feeling the crush of government power.

What, did you think they were actually honest and sincere in their bullshit? They "cared" about "the rights of the criminally accused" because the criminals were only attacking black and brown people, or poor whites who were not like them

Here's a hint:
https://shipwreckedcrew.substack.com/p/government-commits-prosecutorial
You don't engage in prosecutorial misconduct when you can prove your case

Achilles said...

Howard said...

Achilles: stupid versus you people is a relative genius

Boring.

Strelnikov said...

Under what definition of "prosecutors moving quickly" are people detained for a year without bail on trespassing charges?

Rhetorical question only.

Owen said...

We're watching the fantasy of due process explode in plain sight. The "rioters" on J6 were a motley mix of individuals ranging from hard-core provocateurs and freelance vandals, to MAGA types, to bewildered grandmothers swept up by the human torrent (for which a way had been carefully prepared by, IMHO, those hard-core types).

Calling them an "insurrection" or a "seditious conspiracy" begs the question. Each one is to be judged on his or her own behavior --if it can even be ascertained. No wonder it's taking this army of ambitious little Javerts endless months to cook up charges, and no wonder they've gotten no farther than trespass and petty larceny. (Plus, of course, murder: by the Kapitol Keystone Kops, ambushing Ashli Babbitt and, apparently, beating another woman literally to death. But those charges will never be brought).

The explosion of due process is bad enough. But what it means, IMHO, is the burning of the Constitution itself and, worse, the essential trust between the governed and their government. "The Seven Hundred" are going to enter our national mythology like martyrs. After they serve their time, they will return to their communities, and their stories will spread and endure.

These are very dark days, being made darker by the vindictive theater now playing out in Congress.

Michael K said...

Howard: “Black people are treated this way and worse by the criminal justice system every stinking day in City Town and county in the United States.”


Howard proudly voted for the local Soros DA who is sewing chaos in every blue (Democrat ruled) city. Just stay in Masshole, Howard. None of this sneaking off to Florida for a few days of freedom.

Herschel Smith said...

Ann cites the Sarbanes-Oxley Act.

That was a terrible law. It should be reversed for a 1000 other reasons, not the least of which is what Ann cited.

Greg The Class Traitor said...

John henry said...
As far as I can tell, from a word search of the entire US Code "sedition" is legal.

There is no law against it in the United States.

There is a law against "conspiracy to commit sedition" though.

Could one of our lawyers or law profs or other constitutional scholars explain how a conspiracy to commit a legal act can be illegal?


Sure. It's perfectly legal for a business owner to raise his prices. It's entirely illegal for a group of business owners to get together and conspire to all raise their prices. That's been law for over 100 years, IIRC.

As for sedition, the 1st Amendment Free Speech right lets you say "our government should be overthrown".

It doesn't protect you actually trying to do it

Brody Oaks said...

Somewhere, Erich Mielke is smiling down on these Sedition Hunters.

Bilwick said...

Why don't you peasants just quietly submit to your betters? It's not like you own your own lives or property.

Michael K said...

I see the lefties persist in this myth of southern Democrats becoming Republicans. I know of one example, Strom Thurmond and he was a maverick Democrat who ran against Truman. Shelby also switched but that was pretty recent, long after the "Solid South" was gone. The main reason Republicans took over southern states was air conditioning. People and businesses began to move south when the climate was no longer an obstacle. It was not politics. Politics came later as the Democrats moved left and unions lost their power. Unions killed off many of the "rust belt" industries, like the UAW.

holdfast said...

These online “sleuths” are treated like some sort of heroes.

Meanwhile Andy Ngo is doxxed and assaulted.

Gospace said...

Václav Patrik Šulik said...
I'm wondering what the first commenter searched. It's plain as day.

18 U.S. Code CHAPTER 115—TREASON, SEDITION, AND SUBVERSIVE ACTIVITIES


Yep, it's in the title all right. Now, find where it's actually a crime.

§ 2381. Treason
§ 2382. Misprision of treason
§ 2383. Rebellion or insurrection
§ 2384. Seditious conspiracy
§ 2385. Advocating overthrow of Government
§ 2386. Registration of certain organizations
§ 2387. Activities affecting armed forces generally
§ 2388. Activities affecting armed forces during war
§ 2389. Recruiting for service against United States
§ 2390. Enlistment to serve against United States

As many have said- seditious conspiracy is in there- but not sedition. Even in the subsections.

Greg The Class Traitor said...

Howard said...
Black people are treated this way and worse by the criminal justice system every stinking day in City Town and county in the United States.

Really? Please name the individual "black people" who are grabbed and held in sub-standard jails for a year without being charged with a crime, denied any possibility of bail. I'll wait

All the while you people chortle with Glee and superiority about their low character their low IQ and how they bring it all down on themselves it's their fault has nothing to do with slavery reconstruction Jim Crow lynching poll taxes segregation and other forms of repression since time immemorial.

Pay back is a mother fucker, isn't it. You're only saving grace is the Democrats are over playing their hand in the media with this one. They should just keep their mouth shut and let the full weight of the Federal criminal Justice system land on those seditious cowards.


What a sick racist pig you are. "All white people are the same!" "All black people are the same!"

"other forms of repression since time immemorial". Because we all know that no one who isn't "black" has ever been "repressed".
You are a sick fucking lunatic.

People are individuals. We are each responsible for our own actions. We are not responsible for the actions of other people, far separated from us in space and time. Most certainly not because you have decided that we have the "same" skin color, and therefore must be the same.

The last refuge of the utter scum bag:
Sure, what we're doing is completely wrong and horribly evil, but over there I claim a similar evil happened, and the fact that not one of the people this evil is happening to had anything to do with that claimed evil has no relevance. So pay no attention to the evil being done by the people I like

I hope you participate in one of the 2025 anti-Trump/DeSantis protests, and then get thrown in jail for the next year. Because unlike the Jan 6 defendants, you actually deserve that response

Douglas B. Levene said...

@Drago--You probably have Google, so I'm not going to do all your research for you, but here's one case of one person pleading guilty to a charge of conspiring to obstruct Congress.https://www.npr.org/2021/06/23/1009597270/first-guilty-plea-january-6-oath-keepers-conspiracy-case. According to his plea, the defendant "coordinated with his co-conspirators ahead of Jan. 6 and used encrypted messaging apps to maintain 'operational security.'" So if there were evidence that the Trump camp had knowledge of those plans, and was in communication with the participants in that conspiracy, it would be a very bad world for the Trump camp. However, as I noted above, no such evidence has come to light and it's unlikely that any will.

You're welcome.

gilbar said...

Dr K said...
I see the lefties persist in this myth of southern Democrats becoming Republicans....
The main reason Republicans took over southern states was air conditioning. People and businesses began to move south when the climate was no longer an obstacle.


you could make a pretty good case that air conditioning led to the north becoming democrat too
How?
Because of AC, people up north that wanted to work and prosper (Republicans, that is),
migrated to the south and west... Leaving the North(east) to the lazy (democrats)

Jimmy said...

When the legal system treats blm and antifa the same way it treats the Jan 6 “indirection” I’ll give a damn. Marxist’s nd communist get a pass -no bail, no jail time. Our legal system is a joke. Unless you view it in terms of the Soviet Union circa 1935, then it makes sense.
Now you don’t need facts. You can with hold facts. Just jail them for being people who hold different opinions.

Greg The Class Traitor said...

Freder Frederson said...
>> It's distressing to see how little "liberals" care about freedom of speech and the rights of the criminally accused when they see their political enemies feeling the crush of government power.

The exact same thing can be said about "conservatives".

Only if you're lying

Does it distress you when you read comments on your blog advocating shoot to kill orders at BLM protests, or several paragraphs (by an attorney no less) discussing the best ammunition to kill protesters with

"Protesters" != "rioters"
You can ask David Dorn about the difference. Of what, you can't, because teh "George Floyd protesters" murdered him.

What we're talking about, and what is entirely legitimate, is engaging in self defense against violent thugs who are attacking us.

None of which is the case w/ the Jan 6 protesters, you know, the people who were invited by the Capitol Police to come into the building, so long as they didn't destroy things. Then did so, not destroying things

But you don't care, because for you the ultimate crime is to disagree with Freder

Greg The Class Traitor said...

Hey look, lying Levine is back!

Got a response for this? https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=6329595&postID=5964082341938540654&page=1&token=1641354747794

If so, please do pout it in that thread

Greg The Class Traitor said...

Freder Frederson said...
> You support jailing people without bail or charges. You support censorship.
> Your actions prove it.

Even if this were true, and it is nothing but rank libel and defamation, how is advocating executing people without bail or charges (and I assume if you are hanging people from light poles you are not interested in formalities like formal charges or trial)?


Do black lives matter to you Freder? Do you care abotu the black lives killed by other blacks?
Or only the "black lives" killed by cops?

Because what I heard during the BLM riots was that "harms caused by the government are far worse than harms caused by private individuals"

Yet, here you are justifying horrid crimes by the government, because of comments people made on a blog.

That's really something special, Freder

Freder Frederson said...

Field Marshal Freder is going to provide us with a list of all those prisoners' names held without bail awaiting trial for a year in Rikers Island.

Unfortunately, the people who care about the appalling conditions at Rikers are underfunded and ignored. So a comprehensive list is impossible. I never said they were held without bail, but if you are poor, $10,000 (or even $1,000) is practically the same as no bail.

But here is a start. Of course, if you actually cared, you would have looked it up yourself.

gilbar said...

from Sedition is overt conduct, such as speech and organization, that tends toward rebellion against the established order. Sedition often includes subversion of a constitution and incitement of discontent toward, or insurrection against, established authority.

do you know what they call, ONE PERSON rebelling against the government?
INSANE (technically; a Napoleon Delusion)

It REALLY BOTHERS John Henry, that the US Government isn't concerned with ONE PERSON committing Sedition. He can NOT understand why the US Government is Only concerned with GROUPS of people conspiring to commit Sedition.

I've always assumed that John Henry has one of his hands inside his buttons while he says that
(if you see what i mean)

Leland said...

I'm seeing a few comments about people being held without bond for non-violent offenses. While I agree that the violence, at least by those arrested (looking at you Michael Byrd), on Jan. 6th is overblown by politicians (on both sides sadly) and the media; please consider that the accusations made are about a violent riot. Violence is not limited to deadly force with lethal weapons. Violence includes simple assault, which I do think a good number of protesters did commit. I think none of it compares to severe violence of the Antifa/BLM riots or even the Jan. 21 2017 protests, but if you think any Antifa/BLM rioters might need to be held without bail, then you might want to clarify your argument.

Greg The Class Traitor said...

Freder Frederson said...
> Being held without bail for more than a year for nonviolent offenses is "usual"?

Actually, and unfortunately, it is quite common. There are people who sit for years in jails all over this country (Rikers in New York and Orleans Parish Prison are particularly notorious examples) before they go to trial.


really, Freder? Which people being charged with non-violent offenses are being held for a year+ at Rikers?
And are they being held because they've "waived time"? Or because, like the J6 political prisoners, the prosecutors have simply refused to file charges against then so that the trial can't begin

Greg The Class Traitor said...

Howard said...
We were very perplexed how seemingly normal intelligent modern Americans could be so heavily influenced by crazy rumors conspiracy theories and con men.

You mean like "Trump is clouding with Putin"? Those kind of crazy rumors conspiracy theories and con men?

gilbar said...

someone asked Fredo,
Being held without bail for more than a year for nonviolent offenses is "usual"?


and Freder Frederson said...
Actually, and unfortunately, it is quite common.
1/5/22, 8:33 AM


and then 3 hours later,
Freder Frederson said... I never said they were held without bail,
1/5/22, 11:47 AM


In other words, Freddy Admits that he is a lying sack of stuff

Bender said...

Prosecutors Move Quickly on Jan. 6 Cases

Quickly?? More lies from NYT. Prosecutors are sitting on the cases with delay after delay, all while keeping the accuseds languishing in jail on 22 hour lockdown.

Big Mike said...

Unfortunately, the people who care about the appalling conditions at Rikers are underfunded and ignored.

Last time I checked Rikers was not a federal facility. Conditions at Rikers are the responsibility of Eric Adams and Kathy Hochul to fix. Don’t whine in my direction.

Freder Frederson said...

Last time I checked Rikers was not a federal facility. Conditions at Rikers are the responsibility of Eric Adams and Kathy Hochul to fix. Don’t whine in my direction.

True, but the issue raised was long term jail detainees deprived of a speedy trial. Whether state or federal, they are covered by the U.S. constitution.

Narayanan said...

Sedition is what made Planet Krypton go KABOOM.

are we ready to send baby Gore-Al into space yet ?

El-on is working on it!

Wait - he will leave Gore-Al behind and launch himself into space

Drago said...

Doug Levene: "According to his plea, the defendant "coordinated with his co-conspirators ahead of Jan. 6 and used encrypted messaging apps to maintain 'operational security.'"

This is laughable.

Simple "encryption" apps are available everywhere are routinely used by many people to help minimize Big Tech from easily accessing any data transmitted over the lines, though that's not foolproof.

So, was this a serious/complex/nefarious encryption capability, or a standard, not really secure from the govt at all, encryption app available easily to everyone over the counter?

I couldn't help to notice it isn't mentioned. Perhaps it wouldn't seem too nefarious if we knew the details.

And the 1 count of "coordination" is also never detailed out and could mean something as simple everyone agreeing to drive together from location a to b.

Again, I couldn't help but notice the details of this aren't mentioned as well. Why not?

And precisely what was the "plan" "to obstruct the proceeding"? Its never detailed in the link you provided.

From your link: "Mr. Young believed that he and the co-conspirators were trying to obstruct, influence, and impede an official proceeding, that is, a proceeding before Congress, specifically, Congress's certification of the Electoral College vote," the document says."

......by..........what? It's never specified. Did they have a layoyut of the Capital? Diagrams of the offices they were going to occupy? Descriptions of how their "plans" would force the govt to fail to carry out its duties?

Never. Specified.

This lack of specificity is something we've seen over and over again when the govt is overstepping, if not actually acting as the instigator.

We saw this with the Hataree Militia case in Michigan (from 2016) that got thrown out after it became clear it was a complete FBI op and the judge grew tired of the FBI lying and obfuscating. Which is similar to what we see now with another FBI hoax, the Whitmer kidnapping "plot" hoax case, which no doubt will soon go the same route as the Hutaree case.

So, without ANY of the nefarious details of this alleged "plan", I'm just going to assume this sad sack fellow simply didn't have the resources to fight back and got "big footed", unlike these guys who did have the resources to fight back and won against the Sainted Mueller and his hoax collusion staff:

https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/03/department-of-justice-dismisses-robert-mueller-charges-against-russian-businesses/

The other thing notable about the case you linked to was that it is from June of 2021. At at time when many of the defendants were unable to secure adequate defense counsel.

Many of the defendants being charged under these trumped up charges now have better counsel and a better strategy to take on this overcharging and are fighting back more effectively, which is why we see the DOJ feeding stories to its media stenographers.

So, I guess I'm still waiting to hear about the "plan" that allegedly existed.

I suspect, as with Russian Collusion, we'll be waiting a very long time for that......

Douglas B. Levene said...

@Greg: You misspelled my name. I'll accept your apology. If you have any specific questions for me, I'll try to answer them, even though you refuse to answer mine.

Michael K said...

Typically, Freder does not read his own links.

Many of those inmates pleaded guilty in part because it would have allowed them to do their time on Rikers Island, closer to family.

They have been sentenced and want to STAY at Rikers.

Totally unrelated to the topic at hand. Typical.

Douglas B. Levene said...

@Greg: You misspelled my name. I'll accept your apology. I'm not going to answer any of your questions until you answer mine, which you never did.

Have a nice day.

Freder Frederson said...

Or because, like the J6 political prisoners, the prosecutors have simply refused to file charges against then so that the trial can't begin

Nobody is being held without charges. And of the 700 charged, about 70 are being held in jail. You have a valid argument, why ruin it by exageratting?

Howard said...

Meade: Another example of *you people* Proud members of the Althouse sewer: A Cunning array of Stunts

Blogger Fred Walls said...


Black savagery and barbarism is the problem.

………… ……./´¯/)
…………..,/¯../
…… ……./…./
…./´¯/’…’/´¯¯`·¸
./’/…/…./……./¨¯\
.(‘(…´…´…. ¯~/’…’)
…\……………..’…../
.”…\………. _.·´
…………\…………..(
………..\………….\…

Ray - SoCal said...

Good Comparison showing the double standard of justice:

Updated and Reposted: RealClearInvestigations' Jan. 6-BLM Riots Comparison Real clear Investigations

I actually agree with Howard there are huge issues with the us justice system, I just don’t see it as Racist.

Conrad Black has written eloquently on the issue:
Kenosha Prosecutors Exemplify the Problem with America’s Justice System

Freder Frederson said...

Typically, Freder does not read his own links.

Typically, Michael K reads until he finds a sentence he can quote out of context and claims I am bullshitting.

farmgirl said...

Wouldn’t another name for “sedition hunters” be “vigilantes”?
I thought the Liberal minds were dead set against vigilante justice?

Drago said...

Since Freder is around, I'll go "off the topic menu" momentarily to let him know the Democratical Governors Association has publicly announced they will provide no "significant financial help" to Florida dem candidates who run against DeSantis.

This will no doubt shock noted political strategist extraordinaire Field Marshall Freder who just the other day was opining DeSantis had only 50% support....because some dopey lefty poll told him that.

Now, back to discussions with Douglas Levene who is helpfully providing links that do not lay out any actual "plans" for how the US democracy was going to be subverted by having a guy in a viking helmet sit in an important chair in the Capital, because, as we all know, if you want to "win" the entire US of A, that's what you have to do: get your guy in a viking hat to sit in the right chair!

RMc said...

Your accusation against me ignores the quotation marks. That's not very nice of you.

Say what? I quoted you exactly, quotation marks and all. Ahh, never mind. (I'm certainly a lot more kind than the raw sewage Freder, et. al. peddle around here.)

RMc said...

Your accusation against me ignores the quotation marks. That's not very nice of you.

Say what? I quoted you exactly, quotation marks and all. Ahh, never mind. (I'm certainly a lot more kind than the raw sewage Freder, et. al. peddle around here.)

Richard Dolan said...

The J6 cases are being prosecuted based on actions -- illegally entering the Capitol building -- along with allegations about intent, using either a trespass or an obstruction theory. Both are very far from a sedition and, as legal theories go, aren't interesting or novel. Many complain about selective prosecution and (perhaps) a political motivation for these prosecutions. Even if true, courts are very reluctant to question prosecutorial motivations and especially where there is an ample factual basis for the indictment. Same with any defense based on actions by government provocateurs -- that's basically entrapment, and rarely goes anywhere (because the defendant has to show he wouldn't have committed the crime without the provocation).

More interesting are the demands for J6 prosecutions of Trump or other officials for supposedly inciting the riot, based purely on speech.

The relevant cases go back to the Vietnam era, and involved prosecutions for incitement in connection with anti-war protests/riots. The lead case is Brandenburg v. Ohio, 395 U.S. 444 (1969). Brandenburg was a KKK leader in rural Ohio and led a rally making the kind of speech you might expect at such an event. He invited the local TV station to attend, and the whole thing was on video. He was charged with advocating violence under Ohio's criminal syndicalism statute, which proscribed "advocat[ing] ... the duty, necessity, or propriety of crime, sabotage, violence, or unlawful methods of terrorism as a means of accomplishing industrial or political reform" and "voluntarily assembl[ing] with any society, group or assemblage of persons formed to teach or advocate the doctrines of criminal syndicalism". He was convicted in state court. The Supreme Court reversed and held that "the constitutional guarantees of free speech and free press do not permit a State to forbid or proscribe advocacy of the use of force or of law violation except where such advocacy is directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action."

In Hess v. Indiana, 414 U.S. 105 (1973), the Court applied Brandenburg and reversed a state conviction another state conviction. Hess involved an antiwar protest at Indiana University on May 13, 1969 -- nine days after protestors were shot and killed at the anti-war protest at Kent State. In that context, Hess declared "We'll take the fucking street later" or "We'll take the fucking street again," while the local sheriff was trying to clear the street of protestors. He was convicted of disorderly conduct. Again, the Supreme Court reversed because Hess' statement "amounted to nothing more than advocacy of illegal action at some indefinite future time." Action at "some indefinite future time" was not the required "imminent lawless action" under Brandenburg, even if (as the context there suggested) the "future action" could reasonable be deemed only a few hours later. Without evidence showing that Hess' speech was intended and likely to produce "imminent disorder", the state could not punish him for it.

Measured against that test, it's hard to see a prosecution based purely on speech taking place at a location distant from the J6 riot and delivered before the riot. Even more difficult to see any such prosecution if the speech by its terms advocated only a protest. Probably one reason why we haven't seen any such prosecutions and are unlikely to see any in the future.

Ray - SoCal said...

Good Comparison showing the double standard of justice:

Updated and Reposted: RealClearInvestigations' Jan. 6-BLM Riots Comparison Real clear Investigations

I actually agree with Howard there are huge issues with the us justice system, I just don’t see it as Racist.

Conrad Black has written eloquently on the issue:
Kenosha Prosecutors Exemplify the Problem with America’s Justice System

Ray - SoCal said...

Good Comparison showing the double standard of justice:

Updated and Reposted: RealClearInvestigations' Jan. 6-BLM Riots Comparison Real clear Investigations

I actually agree with Howard there are huge issues with the us justice system, I just don’t see it as Racist.

Conrad Black has written eloquently on the issue:
Kenosha Prosecutors Exemplify the Problem with America’s Justice System

Greg The Class Traitor said...

@Levene: Your hypothetical was pathetic. "Let's imagine that everything teh Left says is entirely true, and that Trump is the tool of Satan. What would you do in that case?"

If you're a professor, I pity your students.

I, OTOH, pointed out significant reasons, well known to the public, why no sane person would believe the election was conducted honestly. Not wanking hypotheticals, but actual reality.

Which you refuse to respond to, because reality hurts you

TheOne Who Is Not Obeyed said...

"They" call themselves "Sedition Hunters". "They" probably used to call themselves "The Resistance".

Pretty piss-poor hunters since they haven't found any seditious individuals or conspiracy to sedition.

Or they're hunting prey that doesn't exist.

Most likely the latter.

Still makes them look silly in their pretend quest for "sedition".

If they looked at Clapper and Brennan, they're more likely to find seditious conspiracy.

Leora said...

During the Adams administration a Federal law was passed against sedition. It was wildly unpopular, much reviled and soon repealed.

https://www.archives.gov/exhibits/treasures_of_congress/text/page5_text.html

It is not a crime in the United States to complain about the government.

Bruce Hayden said...

“From the article: "Passed in 2002 as part of the Sarbanes-Oxley Act, which sought to clamp down on corporate malfeasance, the ["obstruction" law relied on by prosecutors] was initially intended to prohibit things like shredding documents or tampering with witnesses in congressional inquiries. Defense lawyers have argued that prosecutors have stretched the law beyond its scope and used it to criminalize behavior that too closely resembles ordinary protest protected by the First Amendment."”

This is DOJ corruption by the LawFare crowd. This is the Obstruction of Justice theory that they used to keep the Mueller investigation/witch hunt going, long after it’s mandate to look for Russian collusion had been satisfied, and also used to prevent the Republican Congress to investigate RussiaGate.

Wonder why Bob Barr was nominated (and became AG)? Because he knew how to shut this LawFare rewriting of this Obstruction of Justice statute down, and then did it. First, before he was nominated, he developed a compelling legal argument showing that the LawFare interpretation was egregious and not supported by one thing other than wishful thinking. Then, when he became AG, he had the DOJ OLC look at the LawFare interpretation (likely with his memo in hand), and roundly reject it. Then, he went to the Mueller prosecutors, and asked them WTF were they doing? They couldn’t answer that, except maybe to say that they had made it up, with rabid left wing support by LawFare, without any support in the case law, whatsoever. Kicking and screaming all the way, they were forced, in short order, to wrap up the Mueller investigation.

By rule and regulation, AUSAs cannot legitimately utilize statutory interpretations that are new and untested (like this LawFare Obstruction of Justice interpretation) without approval by the OLC. AG Barr enforced this. I fully expect tat his successor, Garland, being so much more interested in political expedience, is not enforcing it. Politicized AUSAs would much rather use the statue as leverage, and never take it to trial, knowing that they would likely lose, and get precedent set against them.

Balfegor said...

Also, apropos of all these prosecutions of rioters (and idle trespassers) from last January, what happened with that person who planted bombs at the RNC and DNC the night before? Did he/she ever get apprehended and prosecuted? Candidly, that individual and any co-conspirators should be a lot higher priority than most of the Capitol rioters.

farmgirl said...

Jim5301 sounds just like our breeder- the flag stick and bing identical.

farmgirl said...

Bing = being

NMObjectivist said...

"Ann Althouse said...
@RMc
Your accusation against me ignores the quotation marks. That's not very nice of you."

Thats the nicest criticism I've ever seen. Thanks Ann.

Bruce Hayden said...

The difference between the case of the 1-6 protesters and those held at Rikers Island is that bail has been set for most of the latter, while a year down the road it still hasn’t been set for many of the 1-6 protesters. They are being held without the possibility of bail. For NYC and Rikers Island that only happens with serious (typically capital murder) felony charges where a significant flight risk can be shown.

Both of these Amendments have been egregiously violated by the Brandon/Garland DOJ:

SIXTH AMENDMENT
“In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.[1]”

EIGHTH AMENDMENT
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

Also:
FIFTH AMENDMENT
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Douglas B. Levene said...

@Greg: Apparently you have no clue about how to use hypotheticals to probe legal arguments. I’ll recast it to avoid the elements you find offensive. So, try this hypothetical: Suppose that at some future date, the Democrats control both houses of Congress. There’s a presidential election and the Republican candidate wins by a small margin. The Democratic candidate calls on his Democratic colleagues in the House and Senate to reject the electors for the Republican candidate, throw the election into the House of Representatives, and elect him as president on the grounds that “the Republicans are racist, evil oppressors of minorities and the poor. We can’t allow white supremacy back into the White House.” As I read the Electoral Count Act, that would be perfectly lawful. I would also call it a coup by means of law inasmuch as the loser in the election is seizing power from the winner. Do you agree? If so, do you think we should fix the ECA to prevent that from happening? If not, why not? Would it matter if the Democratic candidate made up a bunch of tall tales about election fraud in order to give cover to his colleagues to vote to reject GOP electors?

Douglas B. Levene said...

I generally concur with Richard Dolan’s comments above.

Drago said...

Balfegor: "Also, apropos of all these prosecutions of rioters (and idle trespassers) from last January, what happened with that person who planted bombs at the RNC and DNC the night before? Did he/she ever get apprehended and prosecuted? Candidly, that individual and any co-conspirators should be a lot higher priority than most of the Capitol rioters."

I suspect this is an entirely ginned up "op", al la Cesar Sayoc and/or Hutaree, where the FBI either gets some suggestible dude with issues to "carry the ball" or the FBI undercover/informant/provocateur guys just do it themselves and hang it on the 1 or 2 schmucks standing next to them to take the fall.....

.....and it goes without saying that every one of these "incidents" always "coincidentally" feeds directly into the democratical narrative of the day.

Lets face it, this has been the modus operandi of the FBI since the 1950's. Beats the hell out of doing real police work and it earns one a great deal of political good will with the powers that be.

Drago said...

Howard at 12:26 plays it safe and instead of using "words and stuff" just goes with a picture.

Which perfectly sums him up.

Quite nicely in fact.

I would recommend Howard have his handwriting analyzed for additional insight into what are certainly many of his "issues", I fear it would not be productive considering he probably signs documents with an "x".

Michael K said...


Blogger Freder Frederson said...

Typically, Freder does not read his own links.

Typically, Michael K reads until he finds a sentence he can quote out of context and claims I am bullshitting.


Freder, you resemble Inga in posting links that you think support your argument but don't. Keep it up if it makes you feel smart. I don't care but the fact remains that your point was about people held before trial at Rikers and all the men in your link had been convicted or pled guilty.

I'm not going to support the abuses of plea bargaining. We might even agree some, but the link was unrelated to your argument.

Try harder next time. If possible.

Drago said...

Richard Dolan: "Measured against that test, it's hard to see a prosecution based purely on speech taking place at a location distant from the J6 riot and delivered before the riot. Even more difficult to see any such prosecution if the speech by its terms advocated only a protest. Probably one reason why we haven't seen any such prosecutions and are unlikely to see any in the future."

Which is why the left is now desperately seeking some way, however ridiculous, to somehow link Trump to nefarious "Plan"...a "plan" for which all the details are forever just out of our grasp nor articulated....but it MUST be there because if Sham-peachment III doesn't work, the democraticals will have to get to work on Sham-peachment IV and that's going to take a helluva lot more work to gin up than the previous Sham-peachments.

Drago said...

OF course, a real "tell" on just how out of line the corrupted DOJ/FBI are is the purposeful, and admitted, withholding of evidence to defendants and their counsel.

From last August re: United States v. Couy Griffin:

Documents related to the Department of Justice’s suit against one of the Jan. 6 Capitol Hill rioters revealed the DOJ is withholding evidence from criminal defendants that support the defense’s argument that law enforcement authorized them to enter the restricted grounds.

“Although we are aware that we possess some information that the defense may view as supportive of arguments that law enforcement authorized defendants (including Defendant) to enter the restricted grounds, e.g., images of officers hugging or fist bumping rioters, posing for photos with rioters, and moving bike racks, we are not in a position to state whether we have identified all such information,” Acting United States Attorney Channing D. Phillips writes in the United States v. Couy Griffin."

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.227183/gov.uscourts.dcd.227183.44.0.pdf

Isn't that nice?

And what was the timing of the case Doug Levene cited on this thread....oh yes, from June of 2021....long before the DOJ admitted in court they were withholding evidence.

I wonder what information was withheld from that defendant who was forced to utilize a public defender....from the DC area....with what politics I wonder? And in front of a DC judge.

Achilles said...

Fred Walls said...

"Howard":

4 per cent of the US population (black males between 14-45) commit almost 50 per cent of US murders.

White supremacy is not the problem.

Black savagery and barbarism is the problem.


This is garbage.

If white people were put in the same situation as the population of South Side Chicago or Detroit or New York the statistic would even up a lot.

This is a racist troll.

Douglas B. Levene said...

@Bruce Hayden: You raise many questions. How many of the defendants being held without charge and/or without bail have sought a writ of habeas corpus? What were the results of those cases? Have any of these defendants waived their rights under the Speedy Trial Act? Alternatively, have any of them made motions to dismiss for violations of the Speedy Trial Act? What did the courts hold? Are there still any defendants being held without charge? Without answers to these questions, it’s hard to tell whether anything bad is happening. I define “bad” in this case to mean in violation of the law.

Achilles said...

Fred Walls said...

Who is this "Howard" person?

He's not very bright, is he.....


Fred Walls said...

"Howard":

4 per cent of the US population (black males between 14-45) commit almost 50 per cent of US murders.

White supremacy is not the problem.

Black savagery and barbarism is the problem.


Howard said...

Meade: Another example of *you people* Proud members of the Althouse sewer: A Cunning array of Stunts

Blogger Fred Walls said...


Black savagery and barbarism is the problem.
………… ……./´¯/)
…………..,/¯../
…… ……./…./
…./´¯/’…’/´¯¯`·¸
./’/…/…./……./¨¯\
.(‘(…´…´…. ¯~/’…’)
…\……………..’…../
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Try to make it less obvious next time Howard.

Drago said...

If you want to know what's wrong with our Howard, its this:

"The party of 'Karens': The new Democratic Party alienates nonwhite voters"

"As President Biden’s approval ratings have tanked with nonwhite voters, the Democratic Party increasingly has become dominated by liberal white women who virtue-signal with suburban lawn signs and then henpeck people in supermarkets to pull their face masks up over their noses. Or, put more simply, the Democratic Party is at risk of becoming a party of “Karens.”

Wow.

They have Howard down to a tee, no?

chuck said...

It's distressing to see how little "liberals" care about freedom of speech

If you distrust the motives of the high minded, you will seldom be disappointed.

Dude1394 said...

Bruce Hayden above is a somuey correct. These are illegally held political prisoners, end stop. Not having a bail hearing for a year is Russia/China territory. And that is NOT hyperbole.

Drago said...

Dude1394: "Bruce Hayden above is a somuey correct. These are illegally held political prisoners, end stop. Not having a bail hearing for a year is Russia/China territory. And that is NOT hyperbole."

According to Field Marshall Freder, this is completely typical of prisoners everywhere, particularly at Rikers....

....except for the hearing part....and the bail part....and the already convicted part....and convicted prisoners at Rikers requesting to be placed at Rikers to be closer to families part....

...otherwise its EXACTLY the same.

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