This is an article in the NYT, which I'm reading because what I hope is that the material will show that Trump wasn't involved in planning or promoting breaking into the Capitol or committing any illegal acts. And isn't that what everyone should hope?
So I'm reading this article and setting to the side everything that is about Trump's belief that he really did win the election, his search for a legal path to victory, and his desire for a big, exciting rally showing strong support for this cause.
So, what does the NYT list? I've copied and pasted the whole text into my compose window, and I will now cut out everything I just said I was setting to the side:
Okay. Now that I've done that... feel free to check my work. Maybe you'll say that the talk of seizing voting machines indicated a willingness to pursue a path that wasn't clearly legal, but it was only considered and then not done. Wasn't it part of brainstorming about what could be done if an election actually were being stolen?
Let's consider the question hypothetically: What if an American presidential election were stolen? What could be done? What if it looked about like the 2020 election, but it really was a fraud?
One answer might be: In the event of such a calamity, it would be best to go forward and treat the ostensible winner as the winner in order to maintain confidence in the system and to avoid the trauma of revealing and delving into the chaos beneath the surface. The true winner of the election should see the profound national interest in moving forward with a new President in office and fully in power — free of any cloud of uncertainty. The true winner should do nothing more than to offer strong support to his erstwhile opponent and to celebrate the beauty of democracy.
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«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 224 of 224who lost effectively every legal claim he brought to the election, most on the merits, not on standing grounds, in many cases before judges that he appointed,
"Stephen" lies, probably knowing he does. Nice try, "Stephen."
If we were willing to perpetrate such a massive fraud (creating 20 million votes out of thin air according to Achilles), why the fuck wouldn't we have also fixed the down ballot races, especially for Senate?
Election expert Freder takes us to task.
As it happened, millions of those absentee mail in ballots had only one vote, for Biden.
You know, the ones on the odd paper with no signature.
I think Nixon took the path he did in 1960 because of national security. In the face of the Cold War, a public squabble over a presidential election could have emboldened the then aggressive USSR. They had just added Cuba to their sphere of influence. Nixon was of the generation that believed that you don't weaken the president in the face of the enemy. He was a strong anti-communist and recognized them as America's enemy.
The fear that you see is the Oligarchs losing their position and their power.
I get that... but the toothpaste is already out of the tube. It won't go away with Trump.
Maybe it's a message to other potential Trump candidates.
I fully expect that at least one state will block Trump from the ballot. I wouldn't be surprised if we see blue counties in red states refuse to put his name on the ballot.
What's to stop Antifa? People with sniper rifles shooting them. What's to stop the authorities from shutting down Republican protests?
That's terrible for a democracy. And that's my point to Ann. The "simple" analysis that Trump should just go away al a Nixon, doesn't account for what that actually might lead to. If cheating is the rule of the day, then both sides will start cheating, and violence is the ultimate form of cheating.
Trump's election was blow to their egos.
So is it vengeance then? That explains reaction to the 2016 election, not to some potential 2024 election.
Achilles said...
The fear that you see is the Oligarchs losing their position and their power.
1/25/22, 7:11 PM
Yes. Ironically, the most sure way to keep Donald Trump down permanently was to adopt his policies. Unfortunately, this was done only in a superficial manner: FJB's true aim is to sabotage the country on behalf of his foreign paymasters. Full stop.
Now the oligarchs are not merely going to lose their ill-gotten property, not only their legacy, but the end of their lives isn't going to be quick or pleasant.
The way to respond if you think you "really" won an election you lost is to use friendly media to spread the story that the winning candidate colluded with Putin, who "interfered" with the election, You'd also use your supporters in the federal law enforcement and intelligence communities to spread the same fable. Your allies would leak false information to friendly media to get your supporters in the permanent government to initiate a "special counsel" investigation. When you were able to take control of the House of Representatives you'd weaponize the power of impeachment.
Wouldn't you?
Freder Frederson said...
Democrat vote counters in Milwaukee, Philly, Detroit, and Atlanta all shut down vote counting on election night, while there were still votes to count, and kicked out everyone who could monitor their actions and prevent them from modifying ballots and / or adding fake ballots
True or false?
Democrat vote counters in Philly, Detroit, and Atlanta all repeatedly blocked Trump campaign poll watchers from being able to monitor their actions
True or false?
Both statements are false. Provide links that prove the truth of these assertions.
Blocking poll watchers:
https://www.phillymag.com/news/2020/11/05/election-watchers-philadelphia-vote-count/
I can't find the 60 Minutes clip, the one where some asshole from the GA Sec of State office came on to tell "what really happened" election night in Fulton. At one point the video he supplied showed the press and poll watchers, all fenced so far away they couldn't monitor what was happening.
Detroit had a "six foot rule", which meant the poll watchers couldn't see what teh poll workers were doing, what they were entering into their computers, etc
Shutting down election night:
https://news.yahoo.com/georgias-most-populous-county-stopped-042700258.html
https://www.bizpacreview.com/2020/11/04/americans-suspicious-and-outraged-after-key-dem-run-cities-stop-counting-votes-on-election-day-992614/
Note, you will find "fact checks" saying that "The whole State did not stop counting election night".
This is what's known as straw man bullshit
The claim is not that "the whole State did it", but that specific Democrat Counties did it.
That there was someone counting all the time, somewhere in Georgia, does not mean that Fulton officials didn't stop their count and kick everyone out.
If we were willing to perpetrate such a massive fraud (creating 20 million votes out of thin air according to Achilles), why the fuck wouldn't we have also fixed the down ballot races, especially for Senate? It looked like we wouldn't even have a majority in the Senate until Trump fucked up the Georgia run off.
I'm not claiming 20 million extra votes, I'm claiming 4 counties that stole 4 States
However:
1: There were a large number of "President only" ballots. When you're working to make a bunch of fraudulent ballots, the less you have to make, the quicker you can do it
2: The Dems believed their own hype. Every predictor was saying the Dems were going to pick up a bunch of seats in the House. So putting in a lot of effort wasn't "justified"
3: The corruption happened in Dem controlled counties, where they turned off signature verification, etc. Those Dem counties already had Dem House seats, so it's difficult for them to steal the GOP seats
4: They managed to steal the MI Senate seat, and push Perdue under 50% so he had to go to a runoff. That's two Senate seats stolen
So, Dem vote counters in key cities shut down on election night, in total violation of regular order.
Dem vote counters kept GOP poll watchers from being able to monitor what they were doing.
All the "Covid safety" changes were utter corrupt bullshit.
You don't want someone looking over your shoulder? Then don't be a poll worker
You don't want someone breathing near you? Don't be a poll worker, or else come in with an oxygen mask so you're not sharing air with anyone
You don't get to "social distance" from poll watchers. Not and have your outcomes trusted
Brian said...
Me: What's to stop Antifa? People with sniper rifles shooting them. What's to stop the authorities from shutting down Republican protests?
That's terrible for a democracy. And that's my point to Ann. The "simple" analysis that Trump should just go away al a Nixon, doesn't account for what that actually might lead to. If cheating is the rule of the day, then both sides will start cheating, and violence is the ultimate form of cheating.
I totally agree. I want to live in a country with the rule of law, and honest elections.
But I don't live in that country. And if the law doesn't cover my opponents, then it also doesn't cover me.
"Well, its ok to cheat this way, but not ok to cheat that way". No. Either it's not ok to cheat, or all options are on the table
Bruce Hayden
"But we have the audit and canvas in AZ, showing that far more illegal ballots were counted than Biden’s (or Kelly’s) margin of victory, Probably over a half million (50x FJB’s margin) ballots that lack full provenance, coming in from people who were dead or long moved, or not mailed out in the first place."
Hey Bruce:
Query-What planet are you living on?
"As it turned out, Cyber Ninjas reported that its own hand count of Maricopa County’s ballots confirmed Biden’s win — and by a slightly larger margin than the official count."
https://tucson.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/court-orders-arizona-senate-to-immediately-disclose-election-audit-records/article_2706ed5e-7af5-11ec-9d15-e70a1e1e50e4.html
Lets sum up the comments here:
1. Duuuuu I went to bed and Trump was ahead. When I woke up he was behind. It was clearly rigged.
2. It was clearly rigged-they let black people vote.
The way to respond if you think you "really" won an election you lost is to prove it.
The way you respond when you really won the election and you ran on a slogan of uniting America is to allow the investigations to play out rather than fighting every inquiry with every means at your disposal. What could you possibly have to hide?
Honest election officials don't exclude poll watchers from just one party, under various pretexts and against state laws.
We have cases in PA and Wisconsin, that I know of, where Democrat leaning precincts were treated differently than Republican leaning precincts, in PA, their supreme court even found that this was the case but threw up their hands saying that there was no remedy.
True information about Joe Biden's corruption was suppressed by social media, which acts as the national town square, and now we have a POTUS and a House Speaker as well as many other Democrats who are deeply involved in corruption in a country which is on the edge of war, according to the CIA leakers who got us into Iraq using the New York Times.
This election stunk on ice. Biden condemned elections abroad where information was kept from the voters, which was a real laugher.
Let's sum up the Left wing comments here:
"Blocking poll watchers from monitoring what the poll workers were doing? We had our eyes closed, so we didn't see that!"
"Shutting down teh count election night, while there were still votes to count? Hey, just because that's what those Democrats counties said they were doing, doesn't mean it happened!"
Then there's Mutaman:
"I refuse to see any of your arguments, so I'm going to pretend they don't exist"
plus Bruce says "the audit found half a million illegal votes". So Mutaman response "but when they counted up those votes, they got the same results the last tiemthey counted up those votes". Gosh, Mut, that's right! When you let illegal ballots into the system, it's then impossible to pull them out and do an honest count!
That's why people who value honest elections try to keep the illegal ballots out
And then there's this gem:
"The way to respond if you think you "really" won an election you lost is to prove it."
Once the fraudsters have been allowed to play around with the ballots while not under opposition poll watcher observation, you can't prove the fraud they did. Either you prevent them from having that opportunity, or the legitimacy of the election is lost.
But the core point is this:
The person who won the election, and who wants the power that gives, is the one who carries the burden of proof that the election and victory were legitimate. Because the whole point of "election legitimacy" is that it convinces the side that lost to accept the result.
We have ballot security measures, and poll watchers from the candidates, and all those other rules that the Democrats violated in 2020, for the purpose of convincing everyone that the election, and its results, are legitimate. When you trample on those measures, you destroy the legitimacy of your victory.
And when you fight tooth and nail against audits of your "victory", you again create and substantiate doubt about the legitimacy of your "victory"
Your problem is simple:
The Democrats acted before the election like they were going to steal it (mailing absentee ballots to everyone, allowing ballot harvesting, allowing ballot drop boxes, eliminating absentee ballot security measures)
They acted during the counting process like they were stealing it (shutting down the count on election night while there were still ballots to count, blocking Trump's poll watchers from being able to closely monitor what the poll workers were doing (no, I don't care if the poll watchers are slowing things down. The count has to be honest, not fast. No, I don't care if the poll workers don't want the poll watchers near them / looking over their shoulders. Ensuring the integrity of the elections is important. Making the poll workers happy is not. No one is forced to be a poll worker. if you don't like the job requirements, don't take the job))
And they're acting post election like they stole it (fighting against election audits is not something you do when you believe your side won)
So any attempt to defend the Biden* "victory" requires ignorance, dishonesty, and / or stupidity
When I'm confronted with that situation, I walk away and don't defend. It's sad you won't do that
"Once the fraudsters have been allowed to play around with the ballots while not under opposition poll watcher observation, you can't prove the fraud they did. Either you prevent them from having that opportunity, or the legitimacy of the election is lost."
Agreed.
If they weren't cheating then why did they do things that cheaters would do?
If this election forever has an * on it, it's the Dems fault. If they try those tactics again I don't think they will be congratulated by the opposition on their "win", no matter how much the decent "Althouses" of the world may wish it to be so.
"As it turned out, Cyber Ninjas reported that its own hand count of Maricopa County’s ballots confirmed Biden’s win — and by a slightly larger margin than the official count."
It’s the Tucson paper. DR K and others here can explain Tucson politics to you. So, of course they are misrepresenting things. So, yes, the hand recount showed the same vote count. BFD. This is the point made by Dems all along - that the recounts all matched. You recount the same bunch of ballots, and get the same answer. What they are cleverly ignoring is that count was GI/GO (Garbage In/Garbage Out). What they are ignoring is that 100k or so of those ballots legally shouldn’t have been counted in the first place. (And that doesn’t address the estimated 500k or so questionable ballots from the canvas). Ballots that weren’t sent out, ballots printed on the wrong paper, and/or with the wrong printers, mail in ballots without signatures, with unmatched signatures, without DL#s, ballots illegally harvested, etc. But when they recounted all of the legal and illegal ballots, together, they got the same count. As I said before, BFD.
“I fully expect that at least one state will block Trump from the ballot. I wouldn't be surprised if we see blue counties in red states refuse to put his name on the ballot”
Those would then probably be illegal ballots. It isn’t up to the counties to determine who is on the ballot in statewide races. It’s up to the state - typically the Secretary of State, but their decisions are routinely overridden by the courts. So, the big Dem counties don’t print ballots with Trump’s name on them. They get challenged as illegal ballots, and their Presidential vote totals are completely ignored. So, instead of winning by 50k votes, Trump wins by 500k, because these counties are inevitably where the bulk of the Dem votes come from. If they completely discard those ballots, instead of just ignore their Presidential counts, then the Republicans may pick up some more Congressional and Senate seats.
It’s blatant cheating. Everyone knows it. The only place this sort of thing is going to work is in states that the Dems have controlled long enough that they completely control the state, including it’s judiciary, and in those states, the Dem nominee is going to win anyway. And in those states, they will attempt to keep Trump off the ballot entirely, state wide.
I thought about this post overnight, and I think what Althouse’s answer to her hypothetical expresses is a mother’s love for her country, the mother’s love in the Judgement of Solomon story, who would rather see her baby raised by a usurper than cut in half. Many of the comments express a wrath of god love for their country - if their country isn’t able to love them back in exactly the way they feel they deserve, they want to destroy it.
If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, its a Howard.
Tim,
You have got me exactly wrong. I am not fishing for actual evidence. In my view, there is plenty of actual evidence of Trump's misconduct in connection with challenges to the election already. And by that, I mean lots of hard evidence of dishonesty and unlawful conduct, by Trump and by his lawyers. You should read the opinion disbarring Giuliani for repeated lies and the op ed by Pence's lawyer describing Trump's lawyers as Grima Wormtongues. For that matter, so should Althouse.
My point was that the Althouse post, which uses the Times article as a vehicle to argue that all that is at stake in the new documents is Trump's rights to freedom of thought and expression and to explore legal means to challenge the election, essentially assumes away the questions of dishonesty and illegality, and the existing evidence of them, to say nothing of issues of law reform. And that, I thought, reflected a kind of willful blindness.
As for the evidence of fraud, we'll have to agree to disagree. I think that any dispassionate observer would agree that the evidence I cited presents an incredibly steep hill to climb for someone seeking to promote a serious claim of outcome determinative fraud in even one state. I also note that the more recent audits that have been done, including that in Arizona and the recent Wisconsin study, both conducted by organizations with a right wing bias, conclude that claims of a fraudulent steal are unfounded.
After Republican Robert Mueller's investigation of Russian election interference, begun by a Republican justice department, and conducted with bi-partisan support, failed to uncover collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia, that claim ceased to play a role in Democratic party politics. What would count, for you, as sufficient proof that there was no outcome determinative fraud in the Presidential election?
Left Bank of the Charles said...
Many of the comments express a wrath of god love for their country - if their country isn’t able to love them back in exactly the way they feel they deserve, they want to destroy it.
No, Charlie, you Democrats are doing everything you can to destroy America.
We're simply ready to fight to keep America from being destroyed any more.
Allowing vote fraud is equal to poisoning the kid
But in a choice between no America, and America ruled by Dems for the rest of time, I vote for no America
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