Close up view of the Boulder County fire and reaction from inside the Chuck E. Cheese off Marshall Rd in Superior, CO with wind gusts of 110mph. pic.twitter.com/OkBUnl8E9c
— Jason Fletcher (@SoFarFletched) December 30, 2021
December 31, 2021
"A wind-fueled grass fire in Colorado burned hundreds of homes in a matter of hours and forced thousands to evacuate Thursday... as flames rapidly spread..."
"... through a region that has seen an unusually dry December.
Whole neighborhoods were engulfed in flames as the fire advanced through Superior and Louisville, two towns about eight miles outside Boulder. In the Sagamore subdivision, 370 homes were believed lost... while another 210 were feared destroyed in another part of Superior.... 'We’re potentially talking about over 500 homes'... That is likely to make it the most destructive fire in state history, according to local tallies. Earlier in the day, the National Weather Service warned the situation was 'life-threatening' — urging residents of Superior and Louisville to immediately leave. The towns have a combined population of over 34,000, and the evacuations triggered frantic escapes and long traffic lines during the height of the holiday season.... Jason Fletcher, a 36-year-old Colorado native who was at a Chuck E. Cheese in the town with his family.... 'It was a typical morning. Blue skies,' Fletcher said, before he and his family started to smell something. A few minutes later, dark smoke began to drift outside."
Here's the scene at Chuck E. Cheese. Look how quickly it escalates — and how, at one point, it looks as though they are locked in, but it's just the powerful wind against the doors:
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the evacuations triggered frantic escapes and long traffic lines during the height of the holiday season
thank GOD (and BP) that they didn't have to wait for their cars to charge!
Someone called into KOA to report the building/business attached to the PetSmart - an OfficeMax - caught fire.
Joe Pelle, the Boulder County Sheriff said the "Target Center" caught fire... that inslcued that Petsmart. They have adoption centers inside that store. I am sick. It's horrible. Animals trapped in their cages as the roof burned. That's how it spread - thru the roof.
Humans have agency and can get out - and they did. Animals do not have that choice, locked up in cages or stuck in a house. Lots of pets have died.
I did hear that one man who was told he could not return to his home... well, he snuck back in to his own home and got his dog out.
Typical Colorado winter weather, nothing to see here.
inslcued = included.
@Cheese
From the article:
"A dog boarding facility in Superior was forced to evacuate dogs without alerting their owners. The dogs were sent to the Boulder Humane Society and to City Bark in Thornton, said Amy Hwang, a 28-year-old who lives near Denver and has been helping owners locate their pets over social media."
Might not be the same thing. But it sounds like there was warning and evacuation. No need to picture animals burning yet.
Last winter Boulder had record snow. This year - nothing. The winds yesterday were off the charts. We are anxiously awaiting snow and sub-zero temps. Snow is more than welcome. Power is out all over - sub-zero temps are not good.
I stopped by the Lafayette YMCA to drop off donations. It's one shelter. I was delighted to see donations pouring in. I walked thru the building to see where they wanted items, items that were stacked up all over the place. Blankets, pillows, dog and cat food, cat litter, bottled water. Red Cross was there.
Cots set up EVERYWHERE. Cots in the gym, between the work-out equipment. A lot of elderly people. It was heart-breaking.
I can tell you the entire town of old-town Superior is gone. Avista hospital - completely evacuated.
Drudge has a link that looks pretty accurate. I don't pay for WaPo so I do not know what it says.
There are a lot of doggie day care centers around. the one in Louisville that I am thinking about is far enough away from the worst of it, that I have no doubt they were able to evacuate.
The town of Superior was hit hard and fast. Louisville is larger and spread out.
My veteranarian is in the area of Louisville that was hit hard. I actually called them because they don't watch TV or listen to news in there. They answered the phone and I asked if they knew what was going on and urged them to take it seriously.
A while later I heard someone say the entire "Enclave" neighborhood - a neighborhood in Louisville consisting of about 100 homes (backed up to Davidson Mesa) was completely destroyed and gone. sh*t! My vet is right near there.
Old town Superior and the Target center are right next to each other. Lots of burning. LOTS.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10356817/Wildfire-spreads-Boulder-Louisville-power-lines-down.html
This photo
If you could pan to the right... PetSmart.
You know when you drive over the big hill on highway 36, heading into Boulder, and there is an place to pull over to take it in the big beautiful view? that's all burned now. Each side of the the highway burned burned burned.
I have friends in Spanish Hills, off S. Boulder rd. last night as I drove home from the YMCA, I zig-zagged as far south as I could before hitting police barricades, and could see various homes on fire. It was surreal. The Marshall Mesa and what few trees and homes are there - engulfed in flames - making the night glow. I cry.
Of all the places you don't want to try to organize, Chuck E Cheese is the worst.
If you've never been to Colorado, you might think of it as green-clad mountains and ski resorts. Had a friend who was from Ft. Collins. Went to Harvard Law and returned to practice water law, a field not necessary in a lot to places.
Thanks for these reports April. It's much better than reading it in the news. I hope you're doing everything possible to minimize smoke inhalation.
This is horrible. It's such beautiful country out there. Just awful.
Can Of Cheese for Hunter said...
You know when you drive over the big hill on highway 36, heading into Boulder, and there is an place to pull over to take it in the big beautiful view? that's all burned now. Each side of the the highway burned burned burned
i DO know that place! i've pulled over there. Thanx for bringing it home to me
i can't think of of a more horrible way for a dog to go, than trapped in a burning cage;
thinking.. WHERE ARE THE HUMANS? WHEN ARE THEY GOING TO COME AND GET ME OUT??
i cry just typing it
Thanks for support and prayers. Everyone. xxoo. If anyone is inclined to give to the CO red cross - or CO salvation army - please do. They are really stepping up.
Gilbar - exactly. I have to try not to obsess but it is all I can think about... The pets who were trapped.
I lived in Superior back when it was cool and the population was about 200 people, and it's hard to imagine it burning down because there wasn't much there, mostly prairie dog towns.
Prayers up. Extra poignant because we lived just north of Boulder and still have friends there. Like other commenters, I can see in my mind’s eye the scene from the hill on Hwy 36 looking north-northwest: dense subdivisions with few firebreaks. Grass fires move very fast and generate their own wind; and as the Twitter video shows, they produce clouds of choking and disorienting smoke where you cannot tell which way to go to safety. Terrifying.
Just to be clear - if you stand on top of the hill on highway 36 - most of the damage is to the east and south. Some to the near-north.
Boulder proper is OK.
Old Town Superior has always been tiny. Mostly due to the fact that it's tucked down in a gully. Tho in recent years the area has been developed to the hilt.
"Typical Colorado winter weather, nothing to see here."
It's kind of interesting that the paleoclimate data says that the level of forest fires has been dropping for centuries in North America, which for hundreds of years prior to the European settlement, was ravages by fires far more often than today. The story is in the Greenland ice cores, which record the smoke in layers discernible to the year. The drop in the level of North American fires is also apparent in the bark of 2,000 year old Sequoia trees. But bumper sticker climatology gets you to what you want to be true quicker, I guess.
If I were guessing though, I would figure a human hand behind this fire, at least indirectly. For instance, in my town we had high winds once, 50 60 mph, and they knocked down a power line which set a house on fire, and then burned down the house next to it So I am thinking that's how it started. And 100 years ago, power lines in dry grassy areas of Colorado were probably pretty scarce, to cause winter fires.
But it feels good to blame it on "climate change," because the "warming" doesn't seem to be panning out, and as if the climate hasn't been changing wildly for the four million years of the Quaternary, (12,000 years ago, where I am typing this was a brackish kind of inland sea) and before the ice ages began, the planet's climate was a stead 4C or so warmer than today for hundreds of millions of years at a time, without our planet coming to an end.
Tim: it's mostly about the expansion of the Urban Wildland interface. We won't know if there was a AGW contribution for 100-years. Also if AGW was a first order contributor, it will take decades to reverse those impacts. Therefore, adaptive measures that give results in the near term should be the priority.q
Don't start making sense, Howard. I am with you on adaptive measures, which any glance at our climate past would strongly suggest are prudent, no matter what, even without the rising CO2 levels, but we are bankrupting ourselves with nonsense renewables, while leaving clean burning NG (1/2 the CO2 of coal, and none of the mercury) in the ground and shutting down nukes, so obviously, logic has nothing to do with it.
One does wonder if this extreme cold event going on in the northern Rockies has anything to do with it though.
https://mobile.twitter.com/RyanMaue/status/1475549228818644997
Our political system is perfectly designed to prevent us from implementing any good solutions though. For instance, my brother used to manage a factory, he had a railroad spur, and shipping by rail was cheaper, but highly unreliable, very few customers chose rail because the carrying cost of the freight while it gradually found it's way to them wiped out any savings. Rail is far cleaner than shipping by truck, trucks produce large amounts of the pollution in cites. instead of spending money improving our freight rail system, we spend billions on "high speed rail" which is hopeless in competing iwth air travel. I rode between London and Paris on the the TGV once, and there were maybe three other people in the car I rode in, but it's sexy to politicians, and meanwhile, our interstates are choked with large trucks, and they continue to pave over more and more countryside to expand the system.
I am with Buwaya now, and think that maybe we should just have a hereditary king.
Good point on the railways, Tim. I see all sorts of abandoned rail-lines all over this state. I often think - what a pity.
I'm all for saving the planet. Common sense is often thrown out for the political needs of the far left. I'm totally against the BS grifting that goes on instead. Solyndra, for example.
The left are trying to ban all natural gas. Oh yes - It's happening. It's a carbon reducing energy source. but they don't like it. so there.
"Last winter Boulder had record snow. This year - nothing."
Climate change.... changes fast....
I too weep for the dogs. Looking at our two right now.
It's both ends against the middle while the left wants to get rid of cleaner burning natural gas the right went kicking and screaming to get rid of coal and still lament The killing of coal. The air quality in the Northeast has improved dramatically over the last 10 to 15 years because Coal isn't being used as much.
The real solution to pollution is 4th generation nuclear power. Still none of that will prevent tragic wildfires. I think Smokey the Bear was channeling Pogo when he said only you can prevent wildfires.
Most certainly that cold very dry air was contributory to the fire. That Ryan Maue link is excellent keeps scrolling down and there is a bunch of excellent scientific maps and video on the fire. The satellite video of the fire popping up is interesting because it's just one small little speck in a ocean of very high wind. It's a miracle that this is the only tragedy spawned by this weather event.
“ thank GOD (and BP) that they didn't have to wait for their cars to charge!”
My kid and their new spouse were down here in PHX over Christmas, and appreciated that the houses on either side of us have EV charging stations (and presumably EVs to charge). Being good liberals, they announced that their next vehicle would probably be an EV. Needed to keep a real one though to go to the mountains, go skiing, etc with.
So, yesterday, I got a text message that they were fine, hadn’t gone in to work, and had missed the fire. What fire? Oh! That fire! Seems that we are somewhat disconnected watching MT news in Phoenix, concerning what is happening in CO. Turns out that they live right now in NW Arvada, and work in the Lafayette/Louisville area. Normal route to work is up Indiana, just east of Rocky Flats, then cutting over to cross US 36 at McCaslin. Which is apparently where the fire came through.
I should add that I used to take a similar route up Indiana and over US 36 at McCaslin into east Boulder to work almost 50 years ago. Until the rear end of the 1955 Nash Statesman that I was driving froze up, causing the car to pull off the road, and evict me (that was a pre-seatbelt law vehicle) as it rolled over a couple times. I was just north of the Rocky Mtn Arsenal east entrance and guard shack on Indiana at the time. Woke up in the hospital. But was off work for a week.
Until you have been around there for a bit, you probably don’t appreciate the wind, esp just east of Boulder. When I was working in E Boulder, it was at a brick factory, and the west side of the big walls were reinforced with big cables. The wind coming out of the mountains with I-70 can be bad, maybe 75 mph. But east Boulder is worse. I have read that it has been recorded at 140 mph. The wind driving the fire yesterday was a bit less, maybe a measly 105-115 mph. I always wondered if the high winds were part of why Boulder got NCAR, NOAA, and ultimately part of NIST and NREL. Well, maybe not the latter. I expect the ambiance of Boulder was key there. But NCAR (Nat Center for Atmospheric Research) was built there over 50 years ago, because the father of a friend in college was the director there at the time.
What is interesting is that a stiff wind of maybe 25 mph can drive fires where we live in NW MT, because of the quantity of fuel in the forests there. East of Boulder, the fuel is mostly just dead grass, which is mostly ignored in MT, but a wind over 100 mph fans the flames just fine, making wildfires essentially unstoppable.
The craziest weather day ever: 11/11/11
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Blue_Norther_of_November_11,_1911
I feel terrible for the people there...I have friends in CO and they say it's been very dry.
But the Chuck E Cheese deserves to burn to the ground for the shitty pizza alone.
Howard said...
The real solution to pollution is 4th generation nuclear power.
This is like the 4th time in the last week, that Howard has said something i agree with
STOP IT howard! it's Creeping Me Out!
This fire will likely be found to have been arson.
The urban sprawl into areas of prairie grassland and other wild areas has an unintended consequence of putting houses where fire is an integral part of the environment. California has the same problem. Put a house in a flood zone, eventually the carpets get wet. Put a house in a place where fire clears the land every few years to decades, and you get pics of burning houses.
And yes, Howard's call for nuclear energy is a fine example of a blind squirrel finding a nut once in a while. Congrats, Howard, for accepting "SCIENCE!" and supporting nukes. Could you convince others of your political persuasion to do so, too?
Yancy -
I live here and I really doubt it was arson. It was a downed power line(s). Understand we are parched bone dry here. We are a tinderbox waiting for a spark, and we got one.
the winds were over 100MPH at times and they were unrelenting. Arson is doubtful.
That said - fierce wind is not new for us. dryness is not new - though the winds yesterday were extreme and punishing. Why are the power lines not fortified to withstand 200 mile per hours winds?
government and Xcel Energy FAIL.
You (i.e., most Althouse readers) spread misinformation about the vaccine so after almost two years COVID is still causing havoc and severe economic disruption. You don't do your part in solving this public health emergency. You make things worse.
You spread lies about climate change and - based on no science - take the absurd position that there the increasing level of CO2 in the atmosphere is not related to man's activities (the annual rate of increase in atmospheric carbon dioxide over the past 60 years is about 100 times faster than previous natural increases, such as those that occurred at the end of the last ice age 11,000-17,000 years ago). You are blind to the fact that excess heat results in more and more severe wild fires. You are all in on fossil fuels and denigrate alternative energy sources. You don't do your part in solving this environmental emergency. You make things worse.
Your authoritarian instincts means you think it is legitimate for the VP to throw out the electoral votes of states that Biden won (according to the courts which in our system decide such matters). Because of you, this great country no longer will be admired for its peaceful transfer of power. You don't do your part in supporting the Constitution, the Flag of the United States, and the Republic for which it stands. You make things worse.
So what do you have in store for us in 2022? Can't wait.
Couple of years ago, there was, you should excuse the expression, an epidemic of wildfires in Australia.
UNPRECEDENTED! NEVER BEFORE! WARMING! Unfortunately, there were records. Mid-Seventies had a couple of years which were worse.
Of about 200 fires, almost all were the result of human activity, including some firebugs, but mostly things like incautiously burning trash.
The Peshtigo Fire killed 1500 people in 1871, which is the same year the center of Michigan's Lower Peninsula was burned over.
I recall coming east from Evanston, WY--Utah border. Illuminated signs said something about winds at sixty-five and no light trailers were allowed. So there I was, motoring along at about 75, mpg showing maybe 90, and quiet as a church.
Check out google earth. See farm country from Ohio west. The further west, the more robust the windbreaks on north and west of farm houses.
And if you're driving west of, say, Des Moines, don't open both front doors of the car at the same time if you have any papers you need.
"So what do you have in store for us in 2022?"
That's for us to know and you to find out. At least you realize that the activity and energy are moving against the Old Regime, and fearful anticipation is all you have left.
Savor it, little fella.
Grew up in NW Arvada. Went to school at CU Boulder. Frequently drove these back roads to and from Arvada/Boulder. Used to pick up ski train at Rocky Flats up to Winter Park.
I don't think people can appreciate that this corridor is one of the windiest places on the planet. In winter the wind howls through this region frequently. I watched over the decades as this area began to become populated with homes and wondered out loud on whether they realized just how ferocious the winds were before moving to that area.
And, the front range of Colorado, from the Continental Divide to down to Denver and beyond, it is absolutely normal for high winds and even Chinook winds (winds that warm as they drop in elevation -- think Santa Ana winds of Southern California). The whole east side of the Continental Divide is much drier than the snowier, west side of the Continental Divide. The leeward side/east side of the Rockies has an immense rain/snow shadow which provides outstanding weather compared to living in the high country. The downside or disadvantage can be high winds and very dry climate. Denver gets 14-20 inches of moisture each year and 300+ days of sunshine.
As Bruce Hayden and Tim in Vermont indicate, this tragedy (IMO) is driven by the interface of the suburban/exurban expansion along with maintenance of open space. Colorado has done a great job of preserving greenbelts and the like for maintaining the views and quality of life, but these winds and grass fires are perfectly normal to expect out here.
What was not expected was that grass fires could burn down whole neighborhoods as you might normally expect in areas where homes are within natural forests. With the exception of a very small area of the Marshall Mesa, there are literally no naturally occurring forests....just open prairie that has now been interrupted by residential development.
Just like the huge forest fires we have had fueled by acres and acres of dead beetle killed timber in Colorado, a wind driven grass fire from open space to suburban was just a matter of time and the right conditions -- which unfortunately are not unusual. All of this is/was completely predictable. The only aspect not predictable was the timing.
And whether you believe it was global warming or not, it would have happened in what are absolutely normal conditions for the front range of the Rockies, esp here in Colorado.
p.s. Bruce Hayden you mentioned driving past east entrance to the Rocky Mountain Arsenal, but you meant Rocky Flats Nuclear Weapons Plant (built plutonium triggers for nuclear devices). Now called Rocky Flats Wildlife Refuge since no homes can be built there. Of course, that hasnt stopped housing development right up to the edge of the old Rocky Flats complete with plutonium and Berylium contamination within the ground and downwind and downstream of the old Rocky Flats.
OK - I'm watching live footage from some helicopter - the Petsmart looks intact.
SIGH*
Fustigator-
Yes - wind and dryness are not new to the front range. Though, this particular winter has been as dry as I can recall, and i've lived here since about 1970.
I grew up in Western unincorporated Arvada. Lot of change.
Candelas. I know people who live there.
No way I would choose to live there.
I have questions about the structure and safety of power lines. (Since dryness and wind are nothing new. )
Tim in Vermont: thanks for the link to Ryan Maue, I've enjoyed his stuff on climate.
Fustigator: totally agree with your description. I lived north of Boulder and there were nights when the wind shook the house, tore shingles and trim away, and seemed to bow the glass in our west-facing windows. Being subject to that world I took a few minutes to learn about katabatic winds which, as you say, arise when cold (dense) air on high terrain comes downslope, compressing (and thus warming, and thus drying) as it comes. In a few miles it drops from 10-11K altitude in the Front Range to 5K at Denver and elsewhere on the high prairie, it's an unstoppable blast.
As noted by you and others above, this is not really about climate change, it's about the collision between human settlement and geography. ...There were people who lived in the canyons west of Boulder surrounded by beautiful conifer forests. Paradise of a sort. But every so often they would get burned out. Because they were living in a chimney; all it took was a spark and an updraft to start a firestorm.
Nature is unforgiving.
If I had to guess - the spark happened near the intersection of 170 (Marshall) and Highway 93 (Eldorado Springs)
The earth is black in that area---> east. to the west - nothing.
Watching the aftermath of destruction isn't all that fun. But if you're into it or curious, here is a live link to the damage.
Imagery from that live link sometimes really underscores the capricious nature of a wind-driven wildfire.
I'm hopeful for my many colleagues and acquaintances in/around Boulder. What a dreadful thing to go through.
Can of Cheese for Hunter. Agree this Fall has been exceedingly dry. The only year that I seem to remember being similar was (I think) Winter of 76/77. My recollection is that there was barely enough snow at Loveland Basin to even start skiing after New Year's. That was about the time that snowmaking started to become a thing.
I arrived in Arvada in 1962 (year I was born), grew up there, went to CU Boulder. My recollection of every winter especially walking to school in West Arvada....is of the wind and dust storms and quite a bit of snow. Until I moved to Denver Tech Center area in my 30s, I just assumed all of Denver was like Golden/Arvada/Boulder. Little did I know there seem to be only 5-6 days a year on this side of town where the wind is howling all day. Huge difference.
“p.s. Bruce Hayden you mentioned driving past east entrance to the Rocky Mountain Arsenal, but you meant Rocky Flats Nuclear Weapons Plant (built plutonium triggers for nuclear devices). Now called Rocky Flats Wildlife Refuge since no homes can be built there. Of course, that hasnt stopped housing development right up to the edge of the old Rocky Flats complete with plutonium and Berylium contamination within the ground and downwind and downstream of the old Rocky Flats.”
You are right. Meant Rocky Flats. Over six months driving by the eastern edge of it every day. If you still know the area, my car wreck was the next big draw or long embankment north of where the east entrance was.
We lived up on the north side of the S Mesa. Going to work, went N from 32nd to maybe 64th on McIntire, then jogged East to Indiana, and straight up (by Rocky Flats) until you hit CO 128, jog west a couple blocks, then N on McCaslin across US 36 through Superior, then up to S Boulder Rd into E Boulder. My kid picks up Indiana about the same place from W Arvada, but peels off into Louisville after crossing US 36 on MCaslin. Went to WR HS, and played Arvada West in football. That school was the newest HS in JCPS at the time.
At the time, they were still making plutonium triggers at Rocky Flats. My only actual visits there involved getting my DOE Q Clearance in the early 1980s. It had the only DOE security office in CO at the time (expect that it would now be at NREL, on the SE side of the S Mesa (we used to ride our horses over there - that Mesa is still a great place to ride, because most of it is now Open Space, thanks to the Coors family (their compound was by the NW corner of the Mesa)). My pledge son was involved in the cleanup of Rocky Flats. Plutonium is apparently hard to deal with, getting everywhere, and I remember hearing of plumes of it over NW Arvada.
We used to joke about the housing developments there. They would wake up one morning to discover that they were living under a plutonium plume. Duh! That’s why the land was so cheap. It’s called “coming to the nuisance”.
wellllpptt
Yancey might be correct. Now investigators are saying the downed powerline idea might not be the reason.
eh - I'm suspicious and cynical and do not trust authorities. but - yeah - could be arson.
“ p.s. Bruce Hayden you mentioned driving past east entrance to the Rocky Mountain Arsenal, but you meant Rocky Flats Nuclear Weapons Plant (built plutonium triggers for nuclear devices). Now called Rocky Flats Wildlife Refuge since no homes can be built there. Of course, that hasnt stopped housing development right up to the edge of the old Rocky Flats complete with plutonium and Berylium contamination within the ground and downwind and downstream of the old Rocky Flats.”
Let me add that there is also a National Wildlife Refuge where the Rocky Mountain Arsenal used to be. Used to joke about seeing two headed deer there. The issue there was the storage of poison gases for the military.
Used to go by that wildlife refuge a bit on 96th Ave when taking the back route to/from DIA. I-76 to 96th, East to Tower road, then south to Peña Blvd (access road from I-70 to DIA). I discovered it when taking a shuttle from Golden to DIA (or back). It avoids the Mousetrap (where I-70 and I-25 intersect) at rush hour. I was very happy having discovered it when I flew into DIA one night to be met with a blizzard that had dumped a couple feet of snow on the east side of Denver. Parents had left a car for me in the long term parking lot, but it turned out that I didn’t have a key. Back to the airport to rent a car. By then, most were already rented. Ended up with a Cadillac, maybe the worst snow car I had ever driven. That was maybe 11 pm. Heading west on Peña Blvd, the traffic was bumper to bumper, moving about 5 mph. Got off on Tower Road, headed north, then across the top of the Wildlife Refuge, etc. Not a car on the road. Smooth sailing I-76 to I-70, thence into the mountains, and was at their house w/I a bit over an hour from Tower Road (usually took about 45 minutes on dry pavement). The kicker to the story is that most of the cars on Peña Blvd ahead of me that night were still on it at dawn the next day.
Grew up in Boulder in the 70s just down the hill from the NCAR facility. What a beautiful place but when the winds came it was miserable. Shingles, building material and sand, sand sand cracking and pitting your windshield to the point you could hardly see out of it at night. If the wind lasted more than a couple days you might go crazy listening to every screw, nail, 2x4, sheet of plywood and rebar straining to keep the house in one piece, ready to be lifted into the sky and dropped somewhere in Kansas.
Then it would end, just like that. We told ourselves it was worth it because it would keep the Californians out. A terrible miscalculation.
"We told ourselves it was worth it because it would keep the Californians out."
The way Californians are running their state, there's nothing that'll keep them out of any of the others.
is it difficult to develop wind breaks aka forests with trees?
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