Says the first commenter on a Metafilter discussion about this article in the Independent, "Why Margaret Atwood’s defense of the word ‘woman’ is misguided – and why it’s so important to get it right/An author whose work challenges biological essentialism has staked out a place on the wrong side of the argument. People like me have long paid a dire price for this wrongheaded thinking."
Margaret Atwood — Margaret Atwood — retweeted an article that defended the use of the word "woman," as opposed to things like "person who menstruates," and she's on the "wrong side" and she's "wrongheaded." There's a right and a wrong, and you'd better not even muse about whether the line is perfectly clear or you are will be blamed for the "dire price" paid by the people who are allowed to say "people like me."
Are women being erased? After 200 years of work, feminists are supposed to hold their tongue and not even ask, because there's another group whose interests have been advanced to the foreground. You can't even begin to think about whether that advances the patriarchy. You will be crushed.
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61 comments:
You can thank the Feminazi's of America. They hate themselves so much, they are eliminating women and letting men take over. Soon...you won't count, unless you are a tranny.
do I have this right? about woman v person who menstruates
so those who trans to "woman" not out of desire to start "bleeding from wherever" (Boy!! was Trump ahead of his time i.e. avant garde) but want to be include them in the social constructed gender
"You can't even begin to think about whether that advances the patriarchy. You will be crushed."
But then, laments about the patriarchy were just another progressive tool. You figure, women used to being used, as feminist theory claimed they were, would have recognized it.
Quaint questions about advancing the patriarchy now are beside the progressive point. You don't still think feminism was about equal rights and such, do you?
But as Atwood and Althouse illustrate, the transgender vanguard of the left may be miscalculating. Lined up against feminists scorned, they haven't won this phase of the culture war yet.
If feminism isn't in women's interest in the first place, it's perhaps not being replaced exactly. Both, however, are into nagging, which suggests they all menstruate. Menstruation and nagging are correlated, not causal. Something else causes both.
Not in women's interest see Choreographies, about five pages, skipping what is not understood in favor of what is understood, about the women's movement.
It's about what holds women's interests, so what would be in their interest.
Just when I think parts of our culture can't get any crazier, I'm proved wrong.
Again and again.
In leftwing authoritarian crazy-land - the word "woman" is misogynist.
Got it.
Just Face FACTS.... Men Make BETTER Women, than Women did
Running
Jumping
Cooking
Dancing
You need to realize; People that menstruate, are Second Class! Everyone Agrees!
It is amazing that these idiots have become so very powerful, pushing a narrative that is both immoral and totally against reality. Nassim Taleb has described a process where a small minority of people who care a lot, can coerce a huge majority that doesn't care. That's why it says "non-GMO" on half our food packages these days.
The remarkable thing in this case is that the huge majority hates these guys. I would think that that would be sufficient, but it hasn't been enough so far.
Hell!! Chix with Dicks even EARN more (Much More!) money than people that menstruate
Women are being erased by the Left. Take note female Dem voters!
For some reason I tried to discover what "dire price" the author has paid for other people's wrongheaded thinking (apparently none), and came across this in the Independent rant:
"Trans people experience so much more than pain. We experience joy and freedom beyond the grasp of cisgender people."
What special little shits they are - "they don't feel pain like we do", so to speak.
Are men being erased? After 5,000 years of history, men are supposed to hold their tongue and not even ask, because there's another group whose interests have been advanced to the foreground. You can't even begin to think about whether that advances civilization. You will be crushed.
How does this even solve the relatively minor problem it's supposed to fix?
Doesn't the National Organization of People Who Menstruate still have to decide what to do about transwomen and transmen?
"Why Margaret Atwood’s defense of the word ‘woman’ is misguided – and why it’s so important to get it right/An author whose work challenges biological essentialism has staked out a place on the wrong side of the argument. People like me have long paid a dire price for this wrongheaded thinking."
When it comes to reality, there is only one side. Reality always trumps fantasy.
In the remake of the Titanic is not going to be women and children first.
There's a new religion in town.
Red pill time, now, professor?
Fight amongst yourselves, ladies, I'm sitting this one out.
Between this post and the one that follows (showing Reuters lack of a sense of humor or even an ounce of ability to detect nuance), you have illustrated the futility in arguing with the Faithful Left. You cannot argue with a sick mind and these people have minds that have been sickened.
This blows past the borders of absurd and jumps with enthusiasm into the realm of insanity. These are functionally insane people.
I'll believe Althouse is outraged when she starts voting Republican.
Until then it's, "Yes Sir! May I have another?"
I can just hear Barry White singing “when a person who ejaculates sperm loves a person who menstruates…”
I accept that there is truly such a thing as gender dysphoria. There's also such a thing as severe cerebral palsy, incapacitating strokes, and other bad things that can screw up your life. I think people with disabilities should be treated with patience and respect. Perhaps that serves to ease their struggles, but their life, nonetheless, remains a struggle....I don't know any dysphorics (if that's the term). If I did, I would try to treat them in a decent, respectful way, but I don't think I could relate to them in exactly the same way I relate to other people. I'm pretty sure I would feel somewhat discomfited in their presence. Mockery and cruelty are wrong, but they're stuck with a condition that people look at cross eyed..... I would guess stroke victims sometimes feel frustrated and unhappy when they're treated brusquely, but that's what they're stuck with. You can't make the Himalayas wheelchair accessible. A fair amount of unhappiness is the sure and certain coefficient of many human conditions.
Gotta love watching all the generations of equity of outcome warriors emulating the Ouroboros Worm.
Women aren't being erased.
These women are being erased. The ones who made advocacy and activism their career. The ones who marched and chanted and held signs and wore T-shirts telling the world how strong and brave they were. The ones who got on TV or the radio and told men they had to be better for 50 years. The ones who couldn't take yes for an answer and kept fighting and marching and chanting even after the world looked the way they wanted it to look. The ones who think their desires can take precedence over biological reality.
The other women, the ones who work for a living, raise their kids, love their husbands, or love being single, and are quietly happy about their lives, or are unsatisfied and trying to do better, are still out there.
Women who define themselves as individuals will never go away. Women who define themselves as part of a group? They're the ones in trouble.
Men Make BETTER Women, than Women did
Running
Jumping
Cooking
Dancing
Now men are better than women in being women.
You can't make the Himalayas wheelchair accessible.
If that's the case we should just level them. About 3.5 trillion should do it.
rhhardin says...
"Menstruation and nagging are correlated, not causal. Something else causes both."
Interesting theory, but I think it's not true and it removes agency and responsibility. Menstruation is like breathing, it's not a choice. Whereas nagging, aka emotional abuse, is a weapon of choice.
I guess we can add Atwood to the list (that includes other notables like JK Rowling) of misogynists' useful idiots
I've been noticing lately how "misogynist" is often being misused. The core meaning of misogyny is a hatred or contempt of women, not what the definition of a woman should be.
I also think that many conflate sexism with misogyny. A male could hold to atavistic views of a woman's role in society without disliking or hating women. And if a female held the same atavistic views, you wouldn't label her a misogynist or a self loathing woman.
Adams Rib, Strange, Split-Tail, Ball and Chain...
Godzilla vs. King Kong! The war of the narratives! Who will reign supreme? Coming to a screen near you soon on pay per view.
Just another example of how wokeism is not a coherent point of view let alone a philosophy. More like ADD mud wrestling where the opponents switch sides at intermission. Don’t worry about the outcome. There is a guaranteed rematch.
I've known one gender dysphoric man. His name was Warren D. and he was a Boeing engineer in the late 1970s/early 1980s. He started living his life as a woman when I met "her" at a friend party. He looked pretty and cute and he had to tell me that he was Warren.
Before he could have surgery, he had to live as a woman and do everything a woman did, including using the woman's restroom. The true women objected to this, Boeing warned him not to use the woman's restrooms. He continued to do so and was fired. That was the last I heard of him/her.
I also know of an actor at Oregon Shakespeare Festival who had a part in Macbeth (can't quite remember which one.) He had assumed the name Claire but was obviously a man. I would never call him/her out about his/her choice of gender as long as he/her was trying to make an obvious attempt at playing a new role. That would be just mean.
A man or boy who puts on a skirt to camouflage his sex is just a sexual predator and gets no sympathy at all, and should get a beat down if he invades a woman's restroom or locker room.
I'll believe Althouse is outraged when she starts voting Republican.
@Kevin, +1
But if Margaret Atwood isn’t a good enough feminist for you, perhaps you should revisit your definition of feminism? Asking for a friend.
"People like me have long paid a price for this wrong-headed thinking."
Now, that is a sentiment that has occurred to almost every human being on this planet from time time time, and more recently, to most people more frequently than ever before. Heaven knows, I think it every day about everything I hear from Joe Biden and his on-going freak show.
I think the federal government should fund a scientific study into the apparently correlations between Gender Dysmorphia/Dysphoria and Tourette syndrome.
Cursing, twitching, uncontrollable impulses destructive to self and others triggered by the least little thing ...
Modern philosophy spent 300 years destroying the idea of truth. Yet I see many now who blithely pass over that. They are convinced that they alone possess the truth, and they shout down and shut down any who disagree.
"People like me have long paid a dire price for this wrongheaded thinking."
S. E. Fleener, the author of the article, prefers the pronouns "they/them," so should she not have written "People like us" in the subhead?
I could also use some advice about the placement of the comma after "them."
Or "them".
"Trans people experience so much more than pain. We experience joy and freedom beyond the grasp of cisgender people."
Of course they do. "Trans culture" people, unconstrained by the shackles of "wellness culture", experience the joy and freedom to attack people they claim have caused them pain. I'd say that's pretty liberating.
Considering they're so joyful, it's beyond the grasp of little old cisgender me to understand their "plight".
Progressives need a dragon to slay as an excuse to gain power. The fight for women's rights was the old dragon, who if not dead, is greatly diminished. Progressives have gone about as far as they can go with that. The fight for "trans" rights is now the new dragon which brings the promise of more power, so yeah feminism loses out to it.
Fleener has a Masters from Harvard.
Well of course they does.
So after Trump won in 2016, a nationwide Women's March protested his existence. Millions of vagina-equipped marchers harrumphed in cities across the US, in masses replete with pink "Pussy Hats" that queefed their message of the power held by biologically female, XX-bearing, humorless feministas that make up half of all humanity.
Let's see the marches of the transitioned, and compare their roar.
Regarding feminists, yes, Kim Gandy, then National President of the NOW, enthusiastically endorsed erasing heterosexual women from “gender bias” in hate crime laws. She told me that women didn’t mind being excluded, except for the lesbian and trans ones, who of course MUST be included. Then she helped push an all-male, mostly gay slate of candidates to take over the Georgia NOW — all because I merely voiced opposition to the exclusion of real women from hate crime laws in the local paper. NOW has always been a lesbian mafia. It wasn’t hard to see the confusion of the elderly members who thought they were actually there opposing things like job discrimination and domestic violence. The savvy straight ones knew they had to play lesbian, but all the lesbians, straight or not, knew they better be submissive to the gay male mafia in that room. I still have a newspaper photo of a bunch of hairy guys waving those purple NOW circles, screaming about something, without a woman in sight. It was hilarious. Now it’s the gay male groups getting what they gave good and hard from the political trans activists, whom they had mocked and scorned for years.
I imagine, or maybe just hope, that most ordinary gay, lesbian, and trans folks want nothing to do with any of this political hardball.
Who wins catch the flag next? Child molesters are my bet, as hatred of reproduction as ecological greed extends to the rapid dehumanizing of children themselves, though bisexuals are also in the running because it’s their “turn.”
"You will be crushed."
It don't mean a thing without a day of book burning.
Go all the way. Nuke it form orbit baby.
“You need to realize; People that menstruate, are Second Class! Everyone Agrees!”
Men are also better, on average, in spatial orientation, logical reasoning, single minded pursuit of objectives, etc. In many lines of work, they make better employees, working harder, longer, and with more creativity. I, for one, prefer to trust structures designed primarily by men, and not by women. A half century after female liberation became popular (ok. I had ancestresses going back more than a century earlier writing about it), and most billionaires who earned their fortunes are still men (with female billionaires mostly acquiring their wealth through marriage or inheritance). Men are also much better at successfully raising teenaged boys, and still essential at raising teenaged girls.
But “real” women have their strengths too. The most obvious is that they can carry a baby to term, nurse it, and mother it until a kid has sufficient independence. They can sacrifice for their children in ways that men really struggle with (ok, we have photos of Transportation Secretary Pete Buttplug nursing his new kids, instead of fixing the container ship problem). Women also, on average, network and multitask better than men. While men tend to be better at spatial orienteering, women do better with navigating by landmarks, and tend to see and recognize many more details. Their senses tend to be sharper, often much sharper. My partner’s first husband was color blind (and she put outfits together for him to wear, as did his sisters before her). She, on the other hand, sees thousands of hues and colors (and how they go together) that most guys (including me) don’t have a clue that they exist.
But the big reason that women are not second class citizens is that men cannot conceive babies, carry them to term, then nurse and imprint on them (despite what Pete Buttipeg is trying to do). Men who don’t honor, cherish, and protect the mothers of their children, as well as their own mothers and daughters, ultimately lose in the Darwinian child rearing lottery. Maybe not in their children’s lives, but in the success of their grandchildren and great grandchildren. And “feminists” are wrong - the government will never be as good at protecting them and their children, as a dedicated mate and father will be. Sure, at one time, men could get and keep high quality wives (etc), who can bear and raise high quality offspring, while continuing to treat them as second class citizens. But that train left the station at least a half a century ago.
“Shut up and make me a sammich” the activist explained to Atwood.
These people are literally delusional.
'Doesn't the National Organization of People Who Menstruate still have to decide what to do about transwomen and transmen?'
Rush called them NAGs (National Association of Gals) : )
“ I accept that there is truly such a thing as gender dysphoria.”
What must be remembered is that real gender dysphoria is rare. It has to be, because it is a Darwinian death trap. Much worse, it appears from the numbers, than homosexuality. What is much more common is adolescence. Just watched the youngest daughter of a good friend go through the transformation from Tom boy to fully feminine high schooler, getting ready for college next year. She went from showering once or twice a week, to caring about her looks, showering and washing her hair every day, and wearing feminine apparel, as well as having a steady boyfriend, in just a couple years. She’s still athletic though, being one of the top ranked soccer goalies in her state (after having had to give up basketball to play soccer year round). Whatever gender dysphoria many kids and young adolescents have, disappears for most, as they settle into their hormone driven sexual identities. If you want to give them psychological counseling to get through this phase, fine. But please don’t permanently deprive them of their potential to reproduce just because they have problems finding themselves in adolescence.
It is not only women being erased, it is "normal." Everything should be binary, flexible, changeable at a whim. There are "people who menstruate" and "people who make sperm," but they are not really different from people who only pretend that they do these things or who have taken severe artificial means to do these things. Not only women are being erased; remember, "masculinity is toxic."
It is not only women being erased, it is "normal." Everything should be binary, flexible, changeable at a whim. There are "people who menstruate" and "people who make sperm," but they are not really different from people who only pretend that they do these things or who have taken severe artificial means to do these things. Not only women are being erased; remember, "masculinity is toxic."
Are women being erased?
Yes you are. Whattaya gonna DO about it?
It is not only women being erased, it is "normal." Things are binary; there are "people who menstruate" and "people who produce sperm," and also people who pretend that they do these things, or who use gross artificial means to seem to do so, and all these types of people are equal. Claiming that there are categories like "women" and "men" means claiming there is "normal." That's what has to be erased. (And remember, "masculinity is toxic."
You can't even begin to think about whether that advances the patriarchy.
It's certainly making the patriarchy look better and better, though. Having second thoughts about that feminism nonsense yet?
Yes, they are absolutely. Last month there just seemed to be a spiral of terrible news, not these cancellations because someone stepped out of line. Real things that hurt women and girls:
-Hundreds of woman Afghan judges just abandoned by the US and the rest of the world (to say nothing of all the rest of the women and girls there). Move along, nothing to see.
-The utter, abject, despicable failure of the FBI to even show up to testify about the terrible Michigan State abuse of young women gymnasts. The FBI manifestly neglected the horrible abuse and completely botched the investigation. They are awful.
-The horrible, horrible human trafficking happening at the border RIGHT NOW. Human trafficking affects far more women and girls than men.
-The NIH announcing a $400 million-plus research grant for long COVID, and a $1.8 million research project for menstrual effects from the vaccines. Everyone knows you find what you look for, especially when it's to the tune of a half-billion dollars. Terrible periods, possible infertility? Nothing to see here, either.
But, oh my, Margaret Atwood says something, steps out of line and gets cancelled, and NOW we have a problem? This is infuriating. We HAVE a problem and it has nothing to do with trans anyone.
The "people like me" cited in the piece don't care about people like me. They hate me.
Why should I care about them?
The use of "person who menstruates" to indicate a woman is telling in another way. Probably never occurred to them to use "person who ovulates."
Typically menstruation is viewed in negative terms, which is how they really see women. Typically too they see the ONE thing that women can do that men cannot do -- ovulate and conceive and carry a child and give birth -- in negative terms. The left has long HATED that fundamental essence of womanhood.
If a person belittle a trans woman (man pretending to be a woman) is it misogyny?
Can one be misogynist to a man even if they are pretending to be a woman?
And if President Trump boots Levine when he comes back in December, and appoint a woman to replace him, will that woman then become the first woman to be whatsit?
John Henry
"Are women being erased? After 200 years of work, feminists are supposed to hold their tongue"
Well, of course!
See, men make better women than "women" do, which is why "trans women" (which is to say, mentally defective males who are pretending their are female) are more important than mere "cis women" (you know, the ones actually born with two XX chromosomes and ovaries).
Are you really enjoying all the "norms" that are "being restores" by the Biden* Admin?
Bender said...
The use of "person who menstruates" to indicate a woman is telling in another way. Probably never occurred to them to use "person who ovulates."
That's a really excellent point.
But it brings up other points. Does that mean that once someone goes through menopause she's no longer a "woman", because she's no longer a "person who menstruates"? How about a woman who has a hysterectomy?
They call themselves "progressives", why is it that they always have such retrograde notions?
Rabel said...
"People like me have long paid a dire price for this wrongheaded thinking."
S. E. Fleener, the author of the article, prefers the pronouns "they/them,"
If SE is a "they", then SE is not a "woman", and has no legitimate whine about what Atwood is saying / retweeting.
No?
If you have a Y chromosome, you're not female.
What's with all the science denying.
To be honest, this is only halfway comprehensible when you accept the fact that the loudest voices among transactivists, those who are, indeed trying to intimidate and shout women down and yes, working hard to claim women's spaces are...mentally ill and/or fetishists.
They are males who demand to be accepted as women because they get off on the notion of themselves as women. They experience self-described "gender euphoria" at seeing themselves as women, being praised as "cute" by others, passing as women or entering women's spaces -gender euphoria being, bluntly, an erection. This is why most of these men, even if they take female hormones or even get breast surgery, will not get "bottom surgery" - if they did so, the "gender euphoria" kick would be gone.
This explains the anger, the aggression, the narcissism.
*They live in seething envy of actual women and HATE us.*
And and others, check out the Ovarit.com discussion board. Great discussions - since the Gender Critical subreddit was, naturally, closed.
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