October 25, 2021

"But the recommendations — even those approved unanimously — mask significant dissent and disquiet among those advisers about the need for booster shots in the United States."

"In interviews last week, several advisers to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and to the Food and Drug Administration said data show that, with the exception of adults over age 65, the vast majority of Americans are already well protected against severe illness and do not need booster shots. All the advisers felt that they were obligated to make difficult choices, based on sparse research, in the middle of a public health emergency. But some said they felt compelled to vote for the shots because of the way the federal agencies framed the questions that they were asked to consider. Other committee experts said that they wanted to avoid confusing the public further by dissenting, or that they voted according to their views of the evidence and were simply overruled."

In straining to maintain authority, the experts undermine their authority. There is too much pressure to present a united front and to give one clear message to people. It's practical, but only short-term practical. When we see that scientists don't stay true to science, we will regard them as part of a propaganda machine. In the future, we won't listen. I wonder how bad did it get before the NYT decided it needed to publish this article. There's been so much fear about saying anything disruptive about vaccines.

94 comments:

rcocean said...

Yeah, its amazing how often we've been getting this kind of elite behavior. We can't give the public the facts and hear both sides, "That will confuse them". Instead we have to present a "Unitied front" and then censor and deplatform anyone who disagrees.

We, the public, are a bunch of children. Not only shouldn't we have a voice in the decisions, we shouldn't even be told the options and underlying facts. Instead, we must be told that "the smart people all think X" and "shut up".

We need flatten the curve, masks aren't required, masks are required, we just need the vaccine, whoops we need booter shots too, oh wait, we need to keep things locked down anyway. Etc. Etc.

All the changing positions are SCIENCE THAT MUST BE OBEYED, even when its 180 degrees from the last one - from 3 months ago.

Kevin said...

In straining to maintain authority, the experts undermine their authority.

Once the science is settled, the die has been cast.

Kevin said...

"But the recommendations — even those approved unanimously — mask significant dissent and disquiet among those advisers about the need for booster shots in the United States."

The phrase "masking dissent" has never been a better visual metaphor.

JPS said...

"All the advisers felt that they were obligated to make difficult choices, based on sparse research, in the middle of a public health emergency."

This line reminds me of a much-touted article by the otherwise excellent John Ioannides early in the pandemic, lamenting that consequential decisions were being made without reliable data.

Of course they were! That's exactly where experts have the chance to do some good: When the early data are murky, and we don't want to wait until all questions are answered because lots of people are going to die who might otherwise have been saved. That's where experience, and decades of detailed study, and informed judgment help us place bets that are at least somewhat likely to be correct.

This can be done well or done poorly. But for it to have a chance, it requires the experts to be aware of their biases, and fight them; and to have absolutely no motive besides telling the truth as best they can discern it. Once they do anything else, no one should trust them again.

I'm still stewing over that letter from the Principal Deputy Director of the NIH, where he admits that the NIH funded bat coronavirus infectivity research by EcoAlliance, with a subaward to the Wuhan Insitute for Virology, but insists that the viruses studied were not, and could not possibly have mutated to become, SARS-CoV-2. Well, that's very reassuring, Doctor – except that EcoAlliance has already lied about their activities, and the NIH has lied (or energetically obfuscated) about the research it supported in China. Now we're supposed to trust you. Sorry, that ship has sailed.

rehajm said...

It's the bitter clingers who think it's still March 2020 and demand 100 percent three shot participation what are the problem, not the people who are questioning the strategy. So yeah it must be really bad in there for NYT to find this fit to print.

...also NYT misses all the fabu dining and socializing and wants to start dating and having casual sex again. All the vaccine talk is making that feel 'icky'...

Mike (MJB Wolf) said...

When we see that scientists don't stay true to science, we will regard them as part of a propaganda machine.

This has been my fear with every ascientific and unfounded declaration of our out-of-control Federal Public Health apparatus. That they continue to employ Fauci after the public lost trust in him specifically and in his propensity to tell "noble lies" was a sign this admin was not going to consider correcting course and acting adult. I don't trust them NOW. Hell no I won't trust them "next time" given the way this was handled. The Feds are still looking for ways to force compliance on "free states" even though the "emergency" aspect of COVID is long past necessary.

Unfortunately this follows the Global Warming pattern of science-abuse by the political class monoparty in DC. No matter how much data accumulates that the seas are not rising abnormally, that "extreme weather" causes fewer deaths than the historical average, and that the earth is not "on fire" they double down on their crazy schemes to "combat" this non-existent "threat." Every top priority of the current admin is a made-up "threat" from white supremacy to insurrection to domestic terrorist parents to all the above. The most maddening of all is that all the actual threats facing our nation are outside of their interests, and not addressed in any of the huge spending bills they are trying to pass, indeed they will make them worse: inflation, open borders, Chinese aggression, poor education, unemployment, shrinking dollar, tech spying on Americans, censorship, and open corruption at the highest levels.

West TX Intermediate Crude said...

An 18 month "Emergency?"
C'mon, man!

Lem said...

The NYT waited for Mars and Jupiter to be in alignment. ☺️

Bob Boyd said...

Progressive-ism is the belief that dishonesty diligently applied can always overcome incompetence.

Achilles said...

Are you sheep feeling a little remiss yet?

Obvious power grabs are obvious.

Remember just 15 days to flatten the curve.

Mattman26 said...

There is a lot worth unpacking in that quote.

But I'll just ask: If we're "in the middle" of a public health emergency (and I must admit I am weary from stepping over corpses in the street), does that mean we're half-way to being done with it?

Chuck said...

The issue is that the real experts speak in terms that precisely reflect scientific limits, nuance, and gray areas.

The anti-vaxxers jump on any lack of absolutes from the cautious and careful experts. The antis claim that they have questions, and that their legal rights (declared in terms of absolutes, unlike epidemiology) are threatened — something that must never happen — and that the experts whom they deplore can’t give anyone clear and simple answers.

The antis thereby declare victory in the argument.

mikee said...

The Left's playback has a standardized response that stops its opponents. First, ignore any complaint. When that becomes impossible, marginalize and demean the complainers. Then admit some small bit of the complaint exists but do nothing, as much later as possible. Then ignore the complaint again, as if it never happened. And when the complaint becomes a real problem for the Left, point back to the previous actions and insist this is a rehashing of old news.

Look for this to be the last news on such issues for oh, six monhs. By the way, COVID rate in Florida has been dropping for how long? Not news at all, of course.

gilbar said...

ALWAYS TRUST THE SCIENCE!!!
Unless, the science doesn't support your political agenda

...make difficult choices, based on sparse research, in the middle of a public health emergency. But some said they felt compelled to vote for the shots because of the way the federal agencies framed the questions that they were asked to consider. Other committee experts said that they wanted to avoid confusing the public further by dissenting, or that they voted according to their views of the evidence and were simply overruled.


So called 'scientists' aren't even worth double quote marks; they're barely worth single tics

MadisonMan said...

I don't see a need for a booster, to be honest. I am not around people, Madison is not crowded with cases. When I see a lot of people who are "only" vaccinated becoming ill, my mind might change.
That said, I'm certain the UW will require a booster shot to work on campus. Or something like that, because administrators like to control. As if "just" vaccination and masks aren't enough!

Yancey Ward said...

Get ready to take your boosters every 6 months from now until the day you fucking die. Once approved by the government, you will need to be boosted on schedule just to be able to work, travel by aircraft, and go shopping in large parts of the world.

The math is conclusive at this point- if you are over the age of 60, the vaccines makes some statistical sense for the moment- you are better off getting the vaccines than not getting them. Additionally, if you are morbidly obese at any age, you are probably better off getting the vaccine than not. If you are immuno-compromised, the vaccines are probably not going to work well for you even if you get them and keep up with the boosters.

As for this push to vaccinate people under the age of 40- this is just criminal behavior at this point, and vaccinating children and pregnant women is just evil behavior.

CJinPA said...

I have never voiced a strong opinion about COVID public policy. Because I understand the necessity of Public Health/Civil Liberties balance and the tension it requires. Both "sides" serve a purpose, both have their extremists, and I trust neither without the counterbalance of the other.

That said, these and other Good Lies are having a serious effect. It seems that half of our public discourse isn't Fact A v. Fact B, but Good Lies v. Everything Else. Race, crime, immigration, terrorism, education, the sexes, COVID...all of them are muddied by Good Lies. That's one reason it feels like theater. Technology has given more people the ability to express more thoughts, yet, outside of wartime, we've never had more restricted, fruitless discourse.

The COIVD Storyline has been established. If you want to remain relevant, or employed, you go along with it.

Michael Ryan said...

Curses to you paywall!

Are the booster shots just going to be a third shot of the existing vaccine, or will they be based off of the Delta variant? That would make better sense, right? Or would that require rerunning the clinical studies? If so, does that mean there are clinical studies rerun yearly on flu shots?

Wendy said...

This lack of dissent and the forceed you must agree with us or else certainly is part of my vaccine hesitancy FOR MY KIDS.

When Ann wrote this "In straining to maintain authority, the experts undermine their authority" I wanted to shout YES YES YES. By straining to maintain this authority they shut down dissent which makes it appear that they could potentially be hiding something.

If there was more discussion there would be more transparency, and it would be easier to see that this is not a one size fits all situation. I want a targeted approach based on age and risk factors and that is being denied.

There is no honest discussion about the risks based on age groups and really we need to do that. COVID disproportionally affects the elderly and infirm. The risk of severe illness and death is not universal, so we should not have a one size fits all plan.

There is no great analogy but think about it alcohol consumption can be fine for adults but not for kids. So shouldn't it be drawn out and think well maybe vaccination isn't right for kids (healthy kids) and allow parents the discretion to vax or not vax based on their child's health? I say yes.

Richard Dolan said...

"In the future, we won't listen."

For some, the future is now, having seen all of this play out before -- e.g., the hype to sell 'climate change' alarmism, or the push to erase the significance of biology (women and men are just culturally constructed categories, nothing real there). Choose you own examples. Funny how a commitment to objectivity and truth-telling, once abandoned in service of some other agenda, has such a predictable consequence. It comes down to this familiar adage: fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.

Tina Trent said...

The CDC, with its Level 5 labs, did nothing to protect itself from terrorism after 9/11, according to one disgruntled and credible employee I knew.

I could walk right into the building with no identification and wander around. This was around 2005, despite the Anthrax and other biological threats. They finally put in some concrete berms. They had less security than the law library.

Fauci personally destroyed a once-competent institution with many, many brave and brilliant employees. The Occam's Razor is that he spent his time accruing political power and little black books while his colleagues did real science.

we need to slow this process down. Now is the time to give out multiple grants for multiple studies of vaccine improvement and efficacy, and make sure they go to politically diverse research and university labs -- to decrease the Fauci Effect. Instead, one man's ego is still running the clown show.

Who benefits?

Witness said...

Still haven't fully grasped the Panopticon.

Mike (MJB Wolf) said...

By the tags on this post (as of 10:16 PDT) alone, this topic speaks to my fear that the most dangerous threat to public health is the way the national public health bureaucracy is being run right now. I would hope we can have bipartisan/nonpartisan support for more actual peer-reviewed science and known best practices to replace the hodgepodge of edicts, mandates and rushed trials. Other than pols who are still clinging to their "emergency" powers who could honestly say they are satisfied with the way our "experts" have comported themselves in the COVID era?

(Of course I understand we cannot even agree at this time on what the definition of "gain of function research" is, let alone whether we funded this dangerous chimera in the labs run by our competitor/enemy China.)

At what point do we demand an end to the "emergency" and a return to constitutional government?

The Drill SGT said...

the nature of science is that it is never settled.

but it seems like the leftists are always trying to get their policy way, by using "settled science " as a club against all dissent

Mikey NTH said...

The most valuable thing they had was their credibility, which they promptly took and burned down. To what purpose?

BoatSchool said...

Actually we’ve already come to believe that most scientists touting “the narrative” and brooking no science-based alternatives (e.g. natural immunity) are already a potent part of the propaganda machine.

Paul Zrimsek said...

"In straining to maintain authority, the experts undermine their authority."

cc: Chief Justice Roberts.

Tom said...

At some point, the folks who have 5 boosters will be demonizing the folks who only have 4 boosters.

Step back far enough and it’s clear that there’s a unified strategy to divide the country:

- Vaccines
- Masks
- Lockdowns
- CRT in classrooms
- Many DEI efforts
- The summer 2020 riots
- The “insurrection”
- Mail-in voting
- The porous border
- CovCath Kids
- Cancel culture
- Taxes
- Bashing Dave Chappell

The goal is clear - to divide the American working and middle class, pitting us against each other, and weaken our country.

So, the NYT article is designed to give fuel to one side of the divide without cooling off the other side.

In fact, the only story that might unite us is that Fauci tortured puppies - we can all agree torturing puppies is bad. And maybe that’s a sign that Fauci has outlived his usefulness to SPECTRE.

Ask yourself - who benefits when we’re this divided? Who would have a sizable enough propaganda machine to mount so many psyop offensives? Who can play the long game as we slowly destroy ourselves? Answer those questions to find the enemy.

Gospace said...

There's been so much fear about saying anything disruptive about vaccines.

Disruptive. Which in many cases means- telling the truth about the vaccine. Which has been gone over before in the Althouse comment sections.

For example- the vaccine doesn't meet the old official definition of vaccine before the Ingsoc editors took control and changed the definition so it did.

For example- now that we have some time behind it- the vaccines effectiveness wanes- rapidly- hence the talk and the "need" for booster. The need? Wait- the boosters aren't going to last any longer than the original shots.

And now that there's some time to study some longer term effects- it appears that having the vaccine then getting the dreaded covid- which the vaccine was originally supposed to prevent- remember?- results in the body's innate immune system from reacting against anything other than the spike! So- the immunity that the unvaxxed get from contracting and surviving the dreaded covid that keeps them from getting it again doesn't occur in the vaxxed- they can get it over and over.

At least one vaccine variety appears to kill young males.

There are now stories circulating about that infant death is measurably up amongst vaccinated women. In February the research into the safety of giving pregnant women (note- women- not people) started. 8 months ago. And shortly thereafter before full approval was being given routinely to them in different stages of pregnancy. So right about now is when problems would be showing up. We'll know for certain in a few more months. Because the powers that be won't be able to hide the numbers. We already suspect "spontaneous abortions", aka miscarriages, in very early pregnancy appear to be up, but there is no national tracking data- it's coming from a lot of anecdotes appearing. My better half had two of those. They were recorded in her medical record, but they weren't reported anywhere. (They were also more than 20 years ago- I doubt there's been a reporting requirement issued since then.)

But in the medical professions there has been a fear of saying anything disruptive about the vaccines, no matter how true, as officialdom has threated to pull the licenses and hence the livelihood of any doctor who speaks out against them in any way.

tim maguire said...

They're already completely corrupted, with people lining up for or against them based on their politics.

Freedom's just another word for no integrity left to lose.

I'm Not Sure said...

"...in the middle of a public health emergency."

"Emergency"? Really? It's been nearly two years now.

Chris Lopes said...

So some of the claims of the antivaxxers (yes, I have been vaccinated) are true. There are indeed questions about the usefulness of the vaccines and medical experts are keeping quiet about that so as not to "confuse" the public. These medical experts have earned the distrust they are getting.

Owen said...

"...In our hearts, I think people don't quite agree with this notion of a booster dose."

Wow. So much for scientific reasoning, and the implicit command to repose confidence in what scientists are saying. Because this quote means "Never mind what I said or how I voted, it wasn't really a logical conclusion following from a professional weighing of the evidence. I am not emotionally committed to my own vote. I don't know my own mind; I am more interested in imagining the minds of something called 'people,' 'those other folks, the ones who are trusting me to protect them'; or, rather, I don't dare vote the way I most deeply FEEL, the way I truly BELIEVE 'people' would vote, or want me to vote. I'm really just a bag of mush. Don't trust a thing I say."

Really makes me want to line up for another jab of that super-good stuff containing --so they say-- strong protection from virus. Except when it doesn't.

FED UP HERE.

Narayanan said...

if they are scientists and not bureaucrats they should be able to write out and demonstrate their reasoning from hypothesis based on data / evidence leading to their conclusions.

as do the Supreme Court /solons/

Leland said...

If we weren't managing a pandemic via narrative; the explanation would be fairly easy. COVID is a virus, and like all viruses, it easily mutates. This means antibodies you may have, from naturally fighting the disease or via the vaccines, will degrade overtime as the virus mutates. If we were close to containment, perhaps we could eradicate it like the polio virus, but that would take honesty. Instead, we have something close to influenza, which requires annual vaccinations to prevent.

The above could be wrong based on the mRNA based vaccination works, but to know for certain would require honest explanations of how those vaccines work. That honesty would come from an open debate such that all questions could be addressed, but open debates are no longer allowed.

Another issue is that people will respond to the vaccination differently. Some will have adverse reactions, some no reaction, and some may need 1 shot or 2 shots or more shots to actually pick up immunity. Alas, we can't make medical decisions at the individual level, because that's not progressive (progressively communist) enough compared to central mandate. So it is 2 shots to get close to 90% effective across the entire population and maybe a booster to get a bit higher. 2 shots whether you have adverse reaction, no reaction, or didn't develop any antibodies.

typingtalker said...

"'In our hearts, I think ... ' said one leading vaccine expert."

Well ... that's all the evidence I need.

Critter said...

The NY Times needed to do this piece to preserve the credibility of the dissenting scientists (and hence science) and The NY Times credibility in reporting on science, an area they have cultivated for many years. They are trying to thread the needle by reporting the science but being sympathetic to political operatives who need to make a difficult decision in a context where Biden is sending an mandate, unfettered by science, about the need for all to get a jab. If this doesn’t illustrate just how politicized Covid policy has become under Biden, I don’t know what else could.

But this is not just about policy. People who don’t need or want the jab will die from being forced to do so just to boost Biden’s approval ratings. That is horrific.

Gemna said...

I'm glad this is getting some media attention. Previously, I've only read about these problems on Medscape. Next up is the decision on the Pfizer vaccine for kids, but sadly I no longer have the trust in FDA and ACIP that I did before. I hope they'll make the right decision, but they're clearly under pressure to approve from Biden's premature announcements.

Drago said...

Pro-marxist pro-CRT Biden voter LLR Chuck: "Chuck said...
The issue is that the real experts speak in terms that precisely reflect scientific limits, nuance, and gray areas.

The anti-vaxxers jump on any lack of absolutes from the cautious and careful experts. The antis claim that they have questions, and that their legal rights (declared in terms of absolutes, unlike epidemiology) are threatened — something that must never happen — and that the experts whom they deplore can’t give anyone clear and simple answers.

The antis thereby declare victory in the argument."

It was prudent of you to offer up not even a single example demonstrating your substance free claim.

You've clearly learned a lesson from having your more recent specific claims blow up in your incompetent hard left partisan democratical face.

Congrats.

Narayanan said...

Once the science is settled, the die has been cast.
-----------
and they can start stacking bodies of the dead in refrigerated trucks.

gilbar said...

Serious Question
Will people be allowed to VOTE, without showing their vaccine passport?
Will vaccine passports have things on them, like name and address?

Seriously, Will VOTING, be The Only Thing in our country, where you Won't have to show ID?

tommyesq said...

Now you know how the science gets "settled."

Balfegor said...

I think authorising the boosters was the right call not because they are necessary, but because they don't particularly hurt, and on the margin they help boost antibodies for a while. Some people have lower risk tolerance for serious disease or are in a situation (e.g. with international travel) where the consequences of even a mild infection could be disruptive. I was in Korea earlier this month, for example, and although I'm fully vaccinated (Pfizer), if I had tested positive at any point after entering Korea, I would have been subject to a mandatory quarantine, likely extending my stay well beyond my planned schedule. Would I have been in much danger of serious illness or death? No, but that's not the only thing I care about. If a booster shot mitigates the risk of infection in the first place by boosting my antibodies for a couple of months, that's a decision I think I ought to be allowed to make. If a panel of experts "recommending" boosters is what it takes to let people make those decisions, then so be it. The parts of their expert judgment I care about are whether it has an effect and whether it's safe. I can take it from there. I don't give any weight to their balancing of the risks.

tim in vermont said...

I used to laugh at those poor suckers over in the Soviet Union, who only had Izvestia and Pravda to read, but as somebody quipped on Twitter, our media makes those guys look like whistleblowers. Oh how I laughed... It wasn't funny.

Balfegor said...

Also, while I'm strongly pro vaccine, I do note concern about children being vaccinated. I think that's reasonable, frankly -- same with the especially frail elderly. The vaccine side effects can be quite strong and even though a fever and chills aren't likely to kill a man in his 20's, I can easily imagine it doing damage to an infant or carrying off a man in his 90's. Just let people make that choice themselves.

tim in vermont said...

"But this is not just about policy. People who don’t need or want the jab will die from being forced to do so"

Vermont is something like 90% vaccinated now, so there should be free land available any day. Keep your eyes open, this will be the biggest blow to Vermont's population since the Year Without a Summer. (15% of Vermonters said "fuck this," I believe, and left.)

All the same, nobody should be forced to get it, and I wouldn't get it if I were under 40 unless I were mixing with old people.

wendybar said...

Flip flopping phony Fauci has been lying to us for months now. Why should we believe anything that comes out of that liars mouth...or the lying CDC who changes their rules as often as I change my underwear?? We are sick and tired of getting lied to by these fools on the hill. We don't trust ANYTHING they tell us anymore...and why should we??

Chris Lopes said...

"The issue is that the real experts speak in terms that precisely reflect scientific limits, nuance, and gray areas."

When talking to each other they do. The point of the article (since you seem to have missed it) is that they don't do that when talking to the general public. Instead, they stick to a narrative that supports whatever public policy is being driven at the time. Admitting the limits of their knowledge is not deemed helpful to that narrative, so it isn't really done. They are in effect, lying by omission.

Larry J said...

Q: What do you get if you add a drop of sewage to a glass of water?
A: Sewage
Q: What do you get if you add a drop of water to a glass of sewage?
A: Sewage

Politics corrupts and pollutes everything it touches, which unfortunately, is virtually everything. Politics is pushed from every side on every issue. Most of the 24 hour news channels are little more than "All politics, all of the time", which is why I quit watching any of them. When you mix politics into matters of public health or science, the end result is always politics, which means half of the country will automatically disagree. The unforgivable sin of the governments' (plural: federal, state, and local, plus international agencies like the World Health Organization) is that they politicized the COVID pandemic. Damn them one and all.

Bruce Hayden said...

“The issue is that the real experts speak in terms that precisely reflect scientific limits, nuance, and gray areas.”

They aren’t actually the experts. They are the bureaucrats claiming to be experts.

“The anti-vaxxers jump on any lack of absolutes from the cautious and careful experts. The antis claim that they have questions, and that their legal rights (declared in terms of absolutes, unlike epidemiology) are threatened — something that must never happen — and that the experts whom they deplore can’t give anyone clear and simple answers.”

I would ask them the actual purpose of vaccinations. Is it for herd immunity? If so, the vaccinations don’t appear to be doing much good. They are very leaky and non sterilizing. We know this because of all the breakthrough cases. Indeed, in a number of states right now, more vaccinated than non vaccinated appear to be getting sick from the virus. So far, the only way to get near herd immunity (roughly 80% with the Delta Variant) is through a combination of natural immunity and a typical sterilizing vaccine, as used against other viruses, that are typically built from using either deactivated or attenuated versions of the virus. But we don’t have that sort of vaccine yet for this virus. For the most part, their explanations for mass vaccinations sounds a lot like working towards herd immunity - except that we now know that they don’t work, and natural immunity probably does.

My theory is that initially these public health bureaucrats thought that these novel gene therapies would work as well as the typical sterilizing vaccines that we are used to. And herd immunity is inevitably what is sought with mandatory vaccinations. There are always individuals (such as babies) who can’t safely be vaccinated. They are protected by herd immunity if the rate of vaccination is above the Herd Immunity Threshold (HIT). When too many parents opt out for their kids, the disease flies through the unvaccinated, and if it is potentially fatal (e.g. Pertussis), kids die.

That all made sense. But then the gay bash last summer in P Town, and a lot of vaccinated guys, who had deep tonged strangers, came down with COVID-19. And at that point, we all knew that these novel vaccines were nowhere close to sterilizing. Way too many breakthrough cases. And as the percentage of the population that has been vaccinated has grown to be over half, and the number of vaccinated getting COVID-19 has skyrocketed. What they should have done at this point was to go back and recheck all their theories and data. They didn’t, and I suspect, because mass vaccinations was a bureaucratic decision, cannot. Instead, they have theorized that maybe the problem is that these novel gene therapy vaccines wear out, and a booster might help. Might. Or, maybe, just maybe, the frequency and severity of side effects of the vaccines might just accelerate (suggested by side effects being much more likely after the second jab).

The bureaucrazation of the vaccine mandate may also explain why vaccinations are being required of those with natural immunities, and those highly unlikely to die from the virus (and likely more likely to die from the vaccines). And why ivermectin, HCQ, etc have been fought so hard.

Bruce Hayden said...

“The math is conclusive at this point- if you are over the age of 60, the vaccines makes some statistical sense for the moment- you are better off getting the vaccines than not getting them. Additionally, if you are morbidly obese at any age, you are probably better off getting the vaccine than not. If you are immuno-compromised, the vaccines are probably not going to work well for you even if you get them and keep up with the boosters.”

What I think that Yancey is getting at is that these vaccines apparently don’t contribute much, if anything, to herd immunity, and, thus mass vaccination is not justified. BUT they do appear to reduce the severity of cases if/when you catch the virus. That means that continued vaccinations with boosters may be justified for those of us in higher risk categories. They probably won’t keep us from catching the virus and getting sick, but there is a decent chance that when we do catch it and get sick from it, being vaccinated will very possibly keep us from dying.

Which is just fine with me. I am over 70 now, with some comorbidities, and might just accept a booster shot (but maybe not with the Moderna version this time, due to its being banned in some other countries for its side effects).

Gemna said...

I'm glad this is getting some media attention. Previously, I've only read about these problems on Medscape. Next up is the decision on the Pfizer vaccine for kids, but sadly I no longer have the trust in FDA and ACIP that I did before. I hope they'll make the right decision, but they're clearly under pressure to approve from Biden's premature announcements.

Richard Aubrey said...

The public health establishment's most precious possession is not the stacks of PhD and lobbyists. Oops.. Scratch that last one. Its most precious possession is integrity/credibility/trust.
If they hustle out to the dumpster, they might be able to retrieve some of it. If they're not too late.

hilaris said...

I got a booster even though the science on it is ambiguous. I figured it couldn’t hurt, and my hospice work brings me in contact with Covid patients sometimes. One thing I have noticed, though, is that many vaccinated people do not have much confidence in the vaccine because they still live in daily fear of the virus.

Bruce Hayden said...

Florida Governor Ron DeSantis Hits Back Hard Against Anthony Fauci, Mad Scientists, Puppy Killers and the NIH Political Health Establishment

Forget Trump. This guy is the really dangerous one to Biden, the Democrats, and the public health bureaucracy. After all, how can you trust the public health bureaucrats if they are going to use taxpayer money to support the ChiComs doing Gain of Function research in order to make viruses more dangerous. Worse, the abused puppies. Or to be more precise, these same bureaucrats spent taxpayer money on killing beagle puppies with sand flies. Do you trust any bureaucracy that spends money on torturing puppies? They could have at least used rescued adult greyhounds. But they used cute beagle puppies.

Maybe hitting below the belt, but torturing beagle puppies is beyond the pale. That’s why De Santa’s may be more dangerous than Trump.

jaydub said...

Chuck: "The issue is that the real experts speak in terms that precisely reflect scientific limits, nuance, and gray areas. The anti-vaxxers jump on any lack of absolutes from the cautious and careful experts."

Chuck, you ignorant slut, those questioning the "experts" are not all anti-vaxers, in fact, I don't even know a single person who is anti. Around 90% of the people in my county (Sumter, Fl) over the age of 65 have had the vaccine, including me, and my 76 y/o ass is getting the booster this week. Does that sound like anti-vax? Our county seven day average of new case incidence is 12; our seven day deaths average is zero. Guess what? There's no current emergency here, so people are irate that it's being presented as an emergency that requires total compliance from a non threatened population. Nuance doesn't only occur at the NIH, it also occurs in the general population and those who open their eyes and understand data analysis. You expound in general terms and non-specific scientific limitations for the entire population. No one I know of is rejecting the vaccine, but lots of people smarter than your typical shyster know from analysis and personal observation that this virus is primarily a problem for the aged with co-morbidities. Mask theater in preschool, vaccinating children under 18, and even masking and vaccinating adults under 50 who have no underlying health issues is not only redundant it is counter productive because it is obviously bull shit to any thinking person.

The thing about you Chuck, is everything is political to you. Why don't you consider what your reaction to the "experts" would be if Trump were still president? Never mind, everyone knows what it would be - spittle-flecked rage because for you, expertise in the absence of the right politics, doesn't count. "Let's go Chuck!"

Drago said...

Pro-marxist pro-CRT Biden voter LLR Chuck: "The anti-vaxxers jump on any lack of absolutes from the cautious and careful experts."

The "cautious and careful experts" who funded gain of function research in a ChiCom military controlled laboratory which is weaponizing viruses for use by the ChiCom military.

Nothing more "cautious and careful" than funding the ChiCom military bio-weapon engineering efforts.

Similar to the "cautious and careful" planning that went into Biden's Earpiece, along with Thoroughly Modern Milley, arming of the entire Taliban army.

And the "cautious and careful" planning that allows tens of thousands of illegals through our open borders and then transporting them across the nation in the dead of night.

So much "cautious and careful" stuff going on these days.......

Gospace said...

Time to comment on the comments.

West TX Intermediate Crude is totally correct in saying “An 18 month emergency? C’mon, man!” We are well past the point where any of the lockdown, mask, social distancing, and yes, even vaccine orders can be justified because it’s an emergency. And Achilles “Remember just15 days to flatten the curve”. The initial idea wasn’t to totally stop covid deaths, it’s a virus and a virus is going to do what a virus is going to do. The total number of deaths and disease under the curve wasn’t going to change. The idea was to spread them out to avoid overwhelming the medical system.

And then there’s Chuck jumping in to condemn the anti-vaxxers by putting his beliefs in what we think into words when he has no clue what many of us think. FYI Chuck, I think a lot of the people making decisions for us should be dragged out and hung on lampposts. FSU I, Whitmer, Cuomo and now Hochul would be a good start. The one thing we should be doing is looking at people who survive the dreaded covid and ask “Why?”. At the very beginning of the covidiocy we had reports from ER doctors that low Vitamin D blood levels predicted who in the ERs and ICUs would die. Now that we’re this far into the covidiocy the numbers have been analyzed. And it looks like a Vitamin D blood level of 50 ng/ml will keep you from dying. And to paraphrase a commenter on another blog- follow the money. Vitamin D and natural immunity have the same number of highly paid lobbyists. To be blunt- any doctor right now who isn’t routinely ordering Vitamin D blood level tests for his customers is guilty of malpractice.

mikee doesn’t get to it directly, but mentions Florida’s covid death rate is dropping. Seems the death and infection rates have been totally independent of draconian masking and social distancing edicts put into place by the world’s dictators like Whitmer, Cuom, and now Hochul who has ordered the masking of two year olds.
Leland is somewhat wrong. The antibodies you get from the dreaded covid infection, provided you’re not vaccinated, do not degrade over time. Their level drops after the infection goes away, but the memory cells of the immune system remembers how to make them should they see the same OR similar again. It appears from multiple sources that the same is not true of the covid vaccines, any of them. Hence the need for boosters. And it appears that the vaccines prevent the body from developing a full array of weapons to fight the virus- the body ends up focusing on the spike. BTW, Chuck, for that reason and that reason alone, that is, the vaccine degrades the body’s response to the actual virus,is more than enough reason to pull the vaccine authorization. That’s evidence the vaccine is actually harmful, and is a totally unexpected development. AFAIK, none of the rabidly anti-vaxx websites predicted that one. ADE was the most common prediction and appears to be happening. The covidiocy has educated ma. Before covidiocy I had no idea what ADE would mean.

Maynard said...


The issue is that the real experts speak in terms that precisely reflect scientific limits, nuance, and gray areas.


This is a joke, right?

Our so-called expert class has devolved into a political operation that doesn't often know what to do (as is often the case in Science) but feels it has to do something, anything to demonstrate expertise and get on the government gravy train.

We no longer practice Science. It has become a political operation with contrary scientific opinions censored rather than celebrated and investigated, as is the case in true scientific inquiry.

COVID-19 (the Wuhan Flu) has been political not scientific since Day 1.

BUMBLE BEE said...

Post office workers Exempt. Celebrities party with politicos no masks. Firing Health front line workers. The "vaccinated" infecting the "vaccinated". %98+ survival rate of the sick and near zero Flu sickness and deaths. Vaccination required of the recovered Covid patients. Sounds like a P.I. lawyer's wet dream doesn't it?

Rabel said...

Below is a link to the Covid rules for federal contractors promulgated by the Safer Federal Workforce Task Force as demanded by President Biden's Executive Order of September 9.

They are extensive and draconian. Make note particularly of the requirements for visitors and non-employees who visit a contractor's workplace. All universities and most large corporations meet the definition of contractor.

Guidance for Federal Contractors and Subcontractors

You will obey! As I read it, you will wear a mask at any Badger basketball game after Dec 8. And if you work remotely and never go on the employer's property you must still be vaccinated (they are kind enough to allow you to work at home without a mask).

narciso said...

the evidence is thin, the vaccines are not sterilizing, they have waning utility, and one still has to wear a mask shirley,

Jersey Fled said...

At least one vaccine variety appears to kill young males.

The last data that I saw, maybe a few weeks ago, showed a small number of hospitalizations but no deaths. Did I miss something? I admit that I haven't spent a lot of time following this stuff lately.

Jersey Fled said...


At least one vaccine variety appears to kill young males.

The last data that I saw, maybe a few weeks ago, showed a small number of hospitalizations but no deaths. Did i miss something? I admit that I haven't spent a lot of time following this stuff lately.

Michael K said...

The CCP is sure getting its money's worth from that Wuhan lab. They get Biden in office then reverse all the things that were good about Trump. Nice job, Joe.

mikee said...

Princess Leia Organa: "The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will slip through your fingers."

Grand Moff Tarkin: "Not after we demonstrate the power of this battle station...."

Was Leia correct, or was Tarkin closer to the truth? What does the Alderaan populace think?
I do so hate when the movie quips of yesteryear become this applicable in real life.

Skeptical Voter said...

Premature announcements? Now that's a real problem for the folks who are either handling Biden and telling him what to say---or regulators of various stripes. I'll spot the regulators a bit of good faith. I think that most of them are trying to do their jobs in a responsible way. But when you have a loose (and senile) cannon at the top of the stack who is prone to wandering the script on the teleprompter--call them premature unplanned oral ejaculations--well life is tough. Your best regulatory plans can get blown to smithereens because two (or more likely a dozen) neurons misfired between Joe's ears.

Bender said...

When we see that scientists don't stay true to science, we will regard them as part of a propaganda machine.

Fifty years later. Well, better late than never.

Howard said...

Whatever can be done to keep Trumpers from protecting themselves and their loved ones from death by Covid is a good thing.

Mike (MJB Wolf) said...

Ah the usual from the banned commenter:
Appeal to authority? Check!
Lies about the authorities’ lies? Check!
Straw man argument? Check!

Perfect score. Oh that those honest straightforward nuanced experts of his imagination actually were working at the CDC or NIH or NIAID etc.

Joe Smith said...

'Whatever can be done to keep Trumpers from protecting themselves and their loved ones from death by Covid is a good thing.'

Wishing death on people who don't share your politics/opinion.

Scum...

gilbar said...

So, Basically; there's One Thing, that can keep you from getting Covid...Having HAD Covid?
Right? The "vaccines" don't Stop you from getting it, they make it (probably) less severe?
I mean, Right?
If you've gotten the Vaccine... You can STILL get Covid, but...
you (probably) won't be AS contagious, 'cause you'll (probably) have less symptoms.
But, you'll still shed SOME viruses. Of course, an Unvaccinated person (probably) will shed more.

So, the "vaccines" aren't Vaccines At ALL; they're treatment.
All of which raises, the Serious Question
How long, until they start Blaming Trump, for the sh*itty not vaccines?

Sebastian said...

"There is too much pressure to present a united front and to give one clear message to people."

Actually, from the expert deep state point of view, there is not enough.

"When we see that scientists don't stay true to science, we will regard them as part of a propaganda machine."

When? Will? You mean, they just started running a "propaganda machine"?

"There's been so much fear about saying anything disruptive about vaccines."

There's been so much fear of running afoul of our ruling expert class and its lefty media enforcers. Even the virus and the vaccines are just tools.

Bunkypotatohead said...

They've been bullshitting us about this disease right from the getgo, with the claim a meat market selling pangolins and bats just had to be the cause.
Anyone suggesting it might have been a lab experiment gone wrong in China was portrayed as a racist. It's politics all the way down.

reader said...

Sister got an email from her employer today (California), flu vaccine now mandatory for employment. My body my choice my ass.

Gospace said...

Ah, Gilbar, nothing in life is guaranteed. But..

Get your Vitamin D blood level checked and supplement to bring it it to 50-60 ng/ml as fast as possible. It will almost definitely keep you alive should you get, and a level that high will very possibly keep you from getting it.

Take a good daily multivitamin and mineral supplement without iron and with the MDR or RDA of zinc. Only take iron by doctor’s advice. Provided you’re not a vegetarian you’ll get more zinc from meat eating.

Buy some Xlear nasal spray. Squirt with it before and after being around other people. I don’t do that. What I do is nasal irrigation every morning with xylitol and erythritol in the mix. If pollen is heavy, another time during the day. The active ingredient in the Xlear is xylitol. There are a number of nasal sprays you could use- search nasal sprays and covid.

Gargle and rinse your mouth every morning after getting up or after breakfast, every evening after your last snacks or just before bed with warm water and xylitol and erythritol.

With your daily vitamin take quercetin and NAC. And a good Vitamin K supplement with the extra Vitamin D dose you decide on.

Works for me so far. 9 tests now with no covid antibodies. My D last measured at 60 ng/ml

Stephen St. Onge said...

Balfegor said...
I think authorising the boosters was the right call not because they are necessary, but because they don't particularly hurt . . .

I wonder where you got that information. Not from the Times story, which says:

“In interviews, the experts bemoaned the limited data on the safety and efficacy of the booster shots.”

Stephen St. Onge said...

Michael Ryan said...
Curses to you paywall!

Are the booster shots just going to be a third shot of the existing vaccine


        You avoid the paywall by using the Wayback Machine or Archive.is to get the story for you.

        And yes, the booster will be the same old same old.

Mutaman said...


Drago:
"It was prudent of you to offer up not even a single example demonstrating your substance free claim"

Actually this entire thread supports Chucks claim.
And the next time Drago links to something supporting one of his claims it will be a first.
Indeed, except for this fellow Rabel, I don't see one link in this entire thread.

Gemna said...

I should also note some legal issues regarding boosters. Off-label use of FDA approved drugs is long-standing and common with varying degrees of evidence. Off-label use of vaccines is much less common, and probably usually done at doctor's office. Pharmacists need a prescription to give a vaccine outside approved use.

In addition the issue of the EUA (which no longer applies to Pfizer) , the federal control and distribution of the Covid vaccines meant providers intentionally giving boosters before approval were acting illegally. I have no issue with the boosters being allowed similar to off-label use, my concern is with the FDA and ACIP being pressured to endorse them without the higher level of evidence they previously required. There's been some other concerns with the FDA (albeit with treatment that would never be mandated), so ACIP decision bothers me more as I had more trust there.

Not to mention the CDC director saying providers will have to take patients at their word regarding qualifying for boosters. Just allow for everyone if you want, don't set guidelines and then tell healthcare workers not to do their jobs and ask questions.

Michelle Dulak Thomson said...

glibar,

Will people be allowed to VOTE, without showing their vaccine passport?
Will vaccine passports have things on them, like name and address?


An excellent question that I doubt anyone will dare to answer.

Gospace said...

https://denver.cbslocal.com/2021/10/25/covid-denver-zoo-lions-positive-tests/

But who's in charge of keeping the cross species transmission from happening? With all the subsequent mutations? Are we going to have to wear masks at zoos or if we own cats? What are the rules? Isn't it the federal government's and the CDC's job to promulgate rules on things like that? It's obvious they don't think T.C. Mits is capable of making rational decisions about risk. They need to act! Maybe we should just kill all the zoo animals to be safe. Yeah, that's the ticket- kill all the zoo animals!

T.C. Mits for those that don't read Heinlein- The Common Man In The Street.

Drago said...

Mutaman: :Actually this entire thread supports Chucks claim."

Ackshually this entire thread doesnt support pro-marxist pro-CRT Biden voter LLR Chuck's claim.

At all.

Utterly unsurprising (and "unexpected"...(wink wink)) that you, a leftist, find yourself in complete agreement with the Ineluctable Wrongness Of Chuck.

Your time would be better spent reading up a bit more on The Hollywood 10 whom you described as only "accused" of being communists when in fact they were out and proud commies all the way as was demonstrated conclusively to you on that thread.

Hmmmm, Mutaman minimizing the actions of open Stalinists....while defending the indefensible LLR Chuck...who is explicitly pro-marxist...

...gee, I didnt see that one coming.....

Chris Lopes said...

"Actually this entire thread supports Chucks claim."

Again, the point of the article is that the scientists studying this decease are (by their own admission) not being completely honest about the limits of their knowledge with the general public. They are being silent about their own doubts in order to project a united front. The public at large can sense this dishonesty, and that is fueling their skepticism. As someone who is vaccinated, I can understand that skepticism without endorsing it.

wendybar said...

Joe Smith said...
'Whatever can be done to keep Trumpers from protecting themselves and their loved ones from death by Covid is a good thing.'

Wishing death on people who don't share your politics/opinion.

Scum...

10/25/21, 8:12 PM

Damn right he is scum. This is what Obama did to us. Happy now??? Division is great!! For Progressives who hate.

wendybar said...

Howard. I am a "Trumper" and I am vaccinated. So Fuck YOU and Fuck your party that hates and divides. This shows what YOU are really like. Congratulations for being a Dick.

Mutaman said...

Free advice Drago - cut down on the labels- its the sign of a slow confused mind.

Balfegor said...

Re: Stephen St. Onge:

I wonder where you got that information. Not from the Times story, which says:

“In interviews, the experts bemoaned the limited data on the safety and efficacy of the booster shots.”


No, certainly not from the Times. First safety. There's been over a million boosters administered in Israel over the past few months, with no significant increase in serious side effects (9 cases of myocarditis). Other countries (including the US) have a much shorter track record at this point, starting "approved" boosters in September (in the US, people have been getting unapproved boosters since at least August), but overall, from a safety perspective, there's similarly been minimal increase in serious side effects despite millions of doses administered.

Data on efficacy aren't quite as clear, but other countries starting with Israel have looked at the data and agreed that on the margin it helps. Pfizer might be overselling when it says it restores efficacy to 95% based on Israeli observational studies, but it seems clear they're detecting a statistically significant effect.

Iman said...

De Santa for the win!

Drago said...

Mutaman: "Free advice Drago - cut down on the labels- its the sign of a slow confused mind."

Your advice is worth every penny of what one would pay for it.

Perhaps spend a bit more money on bringing pro-marxist pro-CRT Biden voter LLR Chuck up to speed.......and spend a bit more time referencing the links I provided in the Hollywood 10 thread to enlighten yourself....the links you claimed didn't exist.

You really are just like LLR Chuck!

William50 said...

Why is it that you don't hear any of our so called scientists discussing this? I realize this is old news but still..

mRNA vaccine inventor: COVID-19 vaccines may make virus more dangerous


"Dr. Robert Malone warns that the development of antibody dependent enhancement among those vaccinated with COVID vaccines 'is the vaccinologist’s worst nightmare.' The scientist has recently been calling for a halt to vaccinations. July 30, 2021 (LifeSiteNews) – Top vaccine scientist Dr. Robert Malone warned that vaccines could be making COVID-19 more dangerous and said the vaccination push may need to be halted altogether..."

Narayanan said...

am I to conclude :
boosters mean iterative vaccinations with same? "preparations"?

or does it mean modifications based on additional evidence about virus mutation + side effects of earlier preparations? >>> as with flu currently.

is FDA basically saying don't renew that prescription without our permission

Greg The Class Traitor said...

"In straining to maintain authority, the experts undermine their authority...."

Bingo. This, 1000x this.

you only get to abandon science for politics once, then your'e never trusted ever again.

Bruce Hayden said...

Re: Pfizer and EUAs. Last I knew,, there were two almost identical Pfizer “vaccines”. The original one, with tens of millions of doses, if not more, stockpiled by our government, is only available via EUA. IT, along with the Moderna and J&J vaccines, are not FDA approved, and only available under EUAs. The second Pfizer vaccine has been FDA approved, but hasn’t been produced, or at least not in any useful quantities. Why wouldn’t Pfizer just switch over production to the almost identical FDA approved vaccine? Possibly because the use of EUAs insulates them from liability. Why would they be ready to produce an FDA approved vaccine? Very possibly because it is probably illegal to force the injection (etc) of a drug under EUA. Yes, they are doing it, through severe coercion, but I think just because they can get away with it. Legally, I don’t think that they should be able to. Some places in the world are apparently holding people down and force inoculating them. I don’t think that would fly here under EUAs, where the administration of drugs is supposed to be voluntary and informed.