October 31, 2021

"American men face a desperate situation and don't even know it. There are large numbers of men wandering lost, in some personal wasteland..."

"... of jobs with little meaning, personal lives with little passion, and massive confusion about the reasons why. There's a lot of hurtin' cowboys out there." 

Said Ed Honnold, "the mild-mannered federal lawyer and founder of the Men's Council of Greater Washington, one of six such local groups salving men's deep inner pain through communal rituals of dancing and roaring, hugging and weeping," quoted in "MEN'S MOVEMENT STALKS THE WILD SIDE," a WaPo column by Phil McCombs, published on February 3, 1991 — 30 years ago. 

I'm reading that this morning because the news about Trump at the Atlanta baseball game doing the tomahawk chop — blogged here — jogged my thinking about gestures and chants that mimic the real or imagined traditions of indigenous people and I thought, remember drum circles?

Here's the part about drum circles from that 1991 article:
[At t]he Men's Council of Greater Washington, which Honnold... sheds his Clark Kent image as he leads 500 men who are pounding drums and chanting. The sweating windows shake with rhythmic thunder that reverberates up and down the street as they raise Honnold -- gyrating and clapping -- high overhead and parade him about the room. Then group leaders circulate with large feathers and clay pots, wafting the smoke of burning sage into waiting faces in what is termed a Native American ritual, designed to put you in touch with generations of male ancestors. It's easy to make fun of this sort of thing, and many news reports have been highly skeptical. As a man never having experienced it before, you feel distinctly uncomfortable at first. 
Perhaps it's the arm-over-arm ouhmmmm, ouhmmm, ouhmmm stuff they do, or the unexpected whiff of real paganism so jarring to the Judeo-Christian sensibility, or just the group mentality with its slight suggestion of coercion. On the other hand, there's a kind of charming innocence here too, harking back to clubhouses and high school locker rooms, and suddenly you remember the slap of wrestlers on the mats, the shouts of drill sergeants in the smoky pre-dawn chill down at Fort Jackson, or the way your bare feet toughened to the road gravel over the long summers when you were a kid running on it with your friends....
Also:
The truth, says Robert Bly, who will lead today's gathering with storyteller Michael Meade, is that a man's life is a shocking descent into grief, and not the upwardly mobile American dreamscape of high-flying success that so many want. Bly, the big poet with the multicolored vest and wild white hair, author of the new bestseller "Iron John: A Book About Men" and head guru of the so-called Mythopoetic Men's Movement, says flatly that "the door to men's feeling is grief, and to be able to make that turn downward, break the upward spiral, and start thinking about what actually went on in your family" is a key to what people in the movement like to call "the mature masculine." American men never learned to be Men, Bly theorizes, because after the Industrial Revolution their fathers weren't around to teach them. They were raised by women who, no matter how wonderful, didn't know how to convey "the distinctive male mode of feeling." Thus, the theory goes, instead of mature or "kingly" men, what we tend to have these days are mama's boys, filled with intense "father hunger," who feel uncomfortable in the company of men but who certainly can't stand up to a woman either. ...

The new men's movement has grown explosively since January 1990, when a Bill Moyers special on Bly, "A Gathering of Men," appeared on PBS....
Oh! We have YouTube now. Here:


Lots more at the link. This is just a snippet:
The Jungian approach -- with its emphasis on archetypes, myths, spirituality and collective unconscious -- is critical to the new men's movement, laying a basis for the assertions not only that men and women are different, but that men are a certain way and no other. Bly, for example, attacks what he calls "soft males," the "Woody Allen-types" who came of age alongside the feminist movement and who Bly thinks have left behind the necessarily "fierce" aspect of manliness. "Many of these men are not happy," he writes. "You quickly notice the lack of energy in them. They are life-preserving but not exactly life-giving." Yet the new mythopoetic leaders, in rediscovering this ancient male "gender ground," as it's called, claim they're rejecting the John Wayne image as well. They're seeking something new....

Many women have a lot to gain, according to Honnold, if their men can break away from all-too-typical patterns of alternating passivity and rage through "nurturing associations" with other men.... But many women react with mild puzzlement, suspicion or shock.... And Carol Bly, Robert's ex-wife, told the Utne Reader that she considers the movement "frightening. The goal of invoking 'exhilaration' through regressive behavior isn't what's needed."...

"There's father hunger and grandfather hunger," Bly observes over his bacon and eggs, "and the grandfather hunger is so deep that we will even hire a total fake like Reagan because he looks like a grandfather. Actually, he's a regressed child."

Robert Bly is still alive. He's 94. I don't think we ever heard from him about Trump, and I don't think he's said anything about the Atlanta Braves and their tomahawk chop and chant. 

By the way, the tomahawk chop began in the same year WaPo published that big article, 1991. Per Wikipedia: "The tomahawk chop was adopted by fans of the Atlanta Braves in 1991. Carolyn King, the Braves organist, had played the 'tomahawk song' during most at bats for a few seasons... "

35 comments:

Roger Sweeny said...

It would be fascinating if someone did a follow-up. What happened to Ed Honnold? What happened to the Men's Council of Greater Washington? What happened to Robert Bly? Is there a flourishing internet community of Mythopoetic Men? Even a limping along splinter group?

Achilles said...

In addition to not be happy, these "effeminate" role models of the male left also turn out to be sexual predators by and large.

They have no idea how to act so they act out of their most primal nature.

Is it any wonder they act like animals? How is it that all of these handmaid's tales all come out of institutions dominated by the left?

What's emanating from your penumbra said...

Let me see if I understand this correctly.

Feminism empowers women and we all should support it. Who could argue. I'm led to believe there aren't any feminist workshops with goofy-as-fuck stuff going on.

Gays, gender benders, cross dressers and trans people can't be joked about. When they brag about their goal of indoctrinating your sons and daughters into trans lifestyle, you can't even criticize THAT behavior without being transphobic and subjected to an FBI investigation as a terroist.

But if traditional strong men explore their role in society, we should point, laugh, pat them on the head and let the women and feminized men tell them what they need.

Did I get that right?

Leftism is a mental disorder. Without exception.

richlb said...

So the local Native Americans appreciate the Braves outreach and don't collectively repudiate the "Chop." But the outrage liberals don't care about them. They have projected their outrage for the "Indians".

Sebastian said...

"American men face a desperate situation and don't even know it."

That's what happens when you're both toxic and hegemonic.

Question for word mavens: when did toxic masculinity become a thing?

Narr said...

Huh. None of the stuff these guys think or do has any appeal to me at all, and is just more evidence that we are screwed IMMO.

Manly is as manly does; doesn't include drum circle jerks.

Original Mike said...

"American men face a desperate situation and don't even know it. There are large numbers of men wandering lost, in some personal wasteland of jobs with little meaning, personal lives with little passion, and massive confusion about the reasons why. There's a lot of hurtin' cowboys out there."

Gee, I'm hurtin' and didn't even know it.

You know what I think leads to "a lot of hurtin"? Too much introspection (and the liberal rags seemed designed to dish that out by the truck load).

Seriously. My life's pretty good, but I'm sure I can talk myself into "hurtin'" without too much trouble; Why would I want to do that? It seems like a really dumb thing to do.

There's a reason white liberal woman have a much higher incidence of mental illness. Our society would really be in the crapper if men followed them down that road.

I'm fine. Leave me alone Ed.

Joe Smith said...

I am a Native American (born in CA).

And my DNA can be traced back to Africa.

Prove me wrong...

Temujin said...

Interesting stuff. I've been reading and writing for some time that men have been cut off at the knees for a few generations now. They have been drugged at young ages to stop their male impulses, shamed, ridiculed, ignored, and sued in their later ages until they become compliant. To whom, you might ask? Good question. To those who seem to control the narrative.

Hence, you have toxic masculinity. The John Wayne guy, or Reagan guy is cast as unsophisticated oaf or just a plain old racist. The Beta man who can portray himself as an 'ally' to the current version of feminism, is considered passable. Not manly. Not even good. Just...passable. Acceptable. Real men- you know, the strong and silent type, are still out there, doing their jobs. Being strong and silent. And seething a bit. Not just at their own predicament, but at the state of our country. Because real men still love their country, even as the current trends seem to lean toward hating your country as your highest standard.

I suspect women in general miss real men. Which is one reason so many women are not marrying, or marrying later (due to not meeting a man to meet a vision of what a man should be), and also a reason we're having so few kids as to fall short of replacement rate for the first time in our history.

Not sure how this turns out, but I suspect the current narrative spreaders will annoy enough people that they will come to a shocking and quick end. Real men will start showing up, standing up and people will follow.

BTW, sometimes a drum circle is just a gathering of old hippies feeling their yoot. In Sarasota, particularly at Siesta Key, it's been a Sunday sunset activity for decades. Not sure how it started, but I saw it 25 years ago and its still done- every Sunday. Reminds me of any random Grateful Dead concert back in the day. Siesta Key Drum Circle. It's hardly just men.

Fernandinande said...

Leftism is a mental disorder.

I see leftism as a set of related superstitions rather than a mental disorder. It's normal for humans to be superstitious.

However - Do the Mentally Ill Lean Left for Rational Reasons?

Gunner said...

I am gonna guess that this Men's Council petered out as soon as internet porn became popular.

cubanbob said...

Althouse needs to create a Trump Universe tag.

Mike (MJB Wolf) said...

Drum circles offend me. Too many people with bad rhythm. We just got back from a wedding in the woods north of Seattle that featured a drum circle-cum-march into the woods. Very arrhythmic. Hope it doesn’t portend discord in their marriage!

Michael K said...

Trump is still living rent free in Ann's head.

Tina Trent said...

I used to teach Bly in my classes and know many of his peers, who were not a little embarrassed by the whole Iron John thing. But kudos for the shirring on that pirate’s blouse on the PBS thing.

The truth about Bly is that he always felt emasculated around the big cheese melters, and yet his best work was very beautiful, delicate and deeply derivative of Asian verse. So when he felt the need to go all Rogan, he had two choices: Sumo it up or what was promoted as Native American (way back in the 90s). He had never fought a war, and like so many was ruined by the Iowa Writer’s workshop, and the fake Irish accent did nothing to help: thus tee pee time.

He chose poorly, probably snatched up by some fake shaman or another. All the Naropa University pot heads were like that. There were some good years there in the fake shaman racket and more to come soon, with the embrace of dumb psychedelic experiences as transformative AND subsidized by insurance.

traditionalguy said...

Interestingly the 1980 Braves once tried a “Indian Medicine Man to dance and chant curses on the opposition. (Chief Knockahoma) complete with a TP and a fire in the corner of the outfield . The Braves could not win shit. Then the year after removing the realistic Indian shaman the Braves went from worst to first in 1990.

tim in vermont said...

Men have always been disposable, see the Trojan War, see WWI, etc, etc, etc.

tim maguire said...

Is the tomahawk chop real? As in, is it something the Indians did at some point? Or is it something we do thinking we're mimicking an Indian...thing.

JK Brown said...

"... of jobs with little meaning, personal lives with little passion, and massive confusion about the reasons why."

It's called married with children. There was a popular sitcom centered around that statement around the same time that was printed. Doing the job that brings in the money need to support the family, either marital conflict or just diversion of parental time to kids and no one warned about this reality.

Joe Smith said...

Old (real) hippies back in the day, or young wannabe hippies smoke a ton of weed.

What to do?

Drum circle!!

If they're not nice, it makes them circle jerks : )

Next time you're in San Francisco, go to the Haight. At the corner of Haight and Ashbury is where all the young hippies hang out with their dogs and drums.

WTF are they doing re-living a past they never had?

It's weird...

Michael said...

You won't see me belittling Robert Bly. Iron John pulled me out of my extended adolescence. Showed me that while I was fully capable of making money, taking adventures and fucking a harem, I lacked the core strength to be a rock-solid dependable man of principle.

Like many men I met in those drum circles, the wound was the absent father. Perhaps absent in body, possibly absent in spirit, and far too often absent in alcoholism. While the drumming may seem hokey, it was the conversations before and after where I found a spiritual connection with other men who had done the work to move into a full maturity.

Bly was spot on noting that American men never learned to be men. They were (are) trained to be women with a penis. Three decades on can anyone say he was wrong?

PS: As to "Whatever became of Robert Bly?", he dropped out of the men's movement in the late 90s because he was being treated as too much of a guru. Bly sensed he was becoming a replacement father figure to those looking for a savior.

Wilbur said...

The city wherein I reside (Hollywood. FL) publicizes a drum circle held every Friday evening on downtown city property. I wonder if it is to promote "the masculine male" ethos.

I'll never know.

Uncle Pavian said...

Hey, remember the Promise Keepers? Wonder what happened to those guys.

rhhardin said...

You can avoid meaningless jobs by never kissing ass.

Drago said...

Leftism is a mental disorder.

Leftism and LLR-leftism is a mental disorder.

And quite frankly, as demonstrated on this blog, LLR-leftism is clearly more demented....and that's BEFORE the gin and tonics begin flowing freely.

Richard Aubrey said...

If I'm hurting about one or another particular thing, I know I'm not the first. I'm in no way that kind of original. Thus, other guys, huge numbers of them, have similarly suffered. So why am I so special I need....drum circles, roaring, or hugs? They didn't, they got by, they paid their dues. Why am I supposed to be so weak as to....what, eschew the things other people need in order to sit around finding myself?
Sheesh. Some people need a hobby, although getting profitably published might count.

Jeff said...

But if traditional strong men explore their role in society, we should point, laugh, pat them on the head ...

Traditional strong men don't waste their time "exploring their role in society". These men you speak of are deluded. What they need to do is get their asses to the gym and lift heavy for a couple of months. Getting much stronger goes a long way to fixing self-esteem problems. Once the gym work has you thinking clearly, you may decide you need to break up an unsatisfying relationship or relocate or both. One thing for sure is that unless you're a professional drummer, the answer is not going involve drums.

Darkisland said...

"American men face a desperate situation and don't even know it. There are large numbers of men wandering lost, in some personal wasteland..."
"... of jobs with little meaning,


I almost gave up at this point. There are damn few jobs that have much "meaning".

What there are are jobs that are interesting, but not even many of those, either. There are even a few, damn few, jobs that are fun. Fun in the sense, as one of my naval aviator students told me once "If the navy did not pay me to fly an A-4, I'd pay them to do it." Except he probably could not have afforded it.

You do your job because it puts food on the table. That should be enough meaning for anyone. Anything more than that that is a blessing.

Most people don't even try. Most people are not willing to do what it takes to get a job with meaning. (Going to night school for 4 years to become a nurse, perhaps)

I've always rememebred hearing Zig Ziglar on this, speaking of Gadabout Gaddis "Find something you love doing so much you would do it for free [fishing in this case] then figure out how to get paid for it. [TV Show]"

When I hear things like jobs with no meaning, my bullshit shield immediately starts to go up.

But in this case I kept on reading. The article was about some guy who was a writer. But it mentions that he is also a POET(tm)!!! OMG, a poet! A really special person!

For some reason.

I read and own more poetry than 98% of America (which is not very much). I think it is a fine thing. A lot of good poetry out there but even more that is absolute shit. I don't endow it with cultish mysticism as so many do.

John LGBTQBNY Henry

Lurker21 said...

MCOGW is still around, and still doing the kind of stuff our parents thought would be fun when they signed us up for the Scouts.

Bly, for example, attacks what he calls "soft males," the "Woody Allen-types" who came of age alongside the feminist movement and who Bly thinks have left behind the necessarily "fierce" aspect of manliness.

That's a strange, barely recognizable take on Woody Allen, but the times were different back then. GHW Bush was thought to be an awful wimp, but he doesn't look that way compared to men today.

Bunkypotatohead said...

Now we have soy boys who don't even realize they're a bunch of pussies.

Mea Sententia said...

‘The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation.’ So I think it’s been said before. But it doesn’t describe me. I’m pretty happy and content. Never needed Jung or feathers. By the way, I think Trump doing the tomahawk chop is funny. Made me smile.

The Cracker Emcee Refulgent said...


“Blogger rhhardin said...
You can avoid meaningless jobs by never kissing ass.”

True and subversively good advice. Even when suck-ups are promoted they end up as hostages to the capable, punching bags for subordinates and supervisors alike.

It’s interesting that this seems to be understood by men and women in equal measure.

Lurker21 said...

"Macho poet" was never going to become a thing ...

Roger Sweeny said...

Thanks to those who left information on what has happened to this "movement" that doesn't seem to have had much traction.

Looking forward, I'm curious whether some sort of "men's movement" will happen in the future. Though it probably won't happen as long as the centuries-long cultural idea that women are more moral continues to be strong.

Howard said...

Blogger Lurker21 said...
"Macho poet" was never going to become a thing ...


We are
Born like this
Into this
Into these carefully mad wars
Into the sight of broken factory windows of emptiness
Into bars where people no longer speak to each other
Into fist fights that end as shootings and knifings
Born into this
Into hospitals which are so expensive that it’s cheaper to die
Into lawyers who charge so much it’s cheaper to plead guilty
Into a country where the jails are full and the madhouses closed
Into a place where the masses elevate fools into rich heroes
Charles Bukowski