"But with the political world entirely focused on Virginia, looking to glean lessons about the state of the national parties, the fate of Biden’s agenda, and Americans’ hope for the future, the pollsters — the people who give us a sense of what to expect in elections — are offering a new round of projections without ever having quite figured out what went wrong last year... In talking to a range of nonpartisan and party-affiliated pollsters in recent weeks, I found that many dismissed, but laughed nervously about, the least scientifically sound idea of all, which unfortunately would have looked on the surface like a fix in 2020: just artificially slapping four extra points of support on Trump’s side. When Patrick Murray, who runs the Monmouth University poll, explored his data earlier this year, he told me, he explored whether there was 'any way I could have modeled my electorate on anything other than arbitrary guesses that would have gotten me closer to the endpoint. And the answer was basically no. If I had the ability to jump ahead in time and know exactly which voters that spoke to me were going to show up to vote, we still would have been off with the Trump vote share.'... The likely problem, in short, is that [pollsters] simply aren’t reaching a significant number of voters activated by Trump.... And if you aren’t in any kind of contact with a voter, it’s essentially impossible to figure out what’s motivating him or her, or what distinguishes them from the people who are answering you...."
From "Polling in America Is Still Broken. So Who Is Really Winning in Virginia?" (NY Magazine).
October 29, 2021
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It makes it impossible for them to be accurate. And probably the people who the elites loathe are happy to make their job impossible. So even out of those they reach, a probably statistically significant number lie to them. Too bad. They have no right to your data.
It is an interesting topic. I have never once in my life on earth been contacted by a poll person (other than robocalls that simply get deleted/blocked). You would think that would have happened at least once, since I have had interaction with just about every other facet of society in some form at least one time.
Who is winning in Virginia? I know which candidate in panicked, and that would be McAwful. Plus Fox News says Youngkin is up by 8.
They're asking this question now that Youngkin is up by 8 points. If McAuliffe was ahead by 8 points this article would not have been written.
Who cares if polling is broken. The election process is broken and unreliable. Whether you believe Biden stole the election, the circumstantial evidence, and resistance to full audits, only reinforces concerns.
As usual, the Republicans are doing little to nothing, lest they be vilified as Trumpers.
The new authoritarianism suffocates. Do you feel like you are being held hostage?
Progressives cheat. The sooner people realize it, the better we can deal with it and MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN!!!
To this, add the contrarian input from those who tell the pollster the opposite of the truth to 'hide their power' and further beclown the polls.
From my observations over the years, I suspect that few in this forum will answer a poll. I know I won't. The level of trust that would need to exist to allow that is gone.
It has to be a very bad time to be in the polling business.
In the 21st century, polls exist to influence voters, not count them
J.D. Vance and Selena Zito didnt seem to have much diffuculty in identifying key components of the Trump voter coalition and what motivates those voters and why the populist and anti-woke positions adopted by Trump would increase turnout amongst rural blue collar voters and capture increasing percentages of the minority vote.
But of course neither Vance nor Zito live on the upper east side of Manhattan so what could they possibly know, right?
More importantly, analysts of the political scene who do not allow themselves to be trapped in a purely tribal framework for assessment early on saw what was happening on the ground and that old labels no longer were as relevant.
Those people included pollsters like Ruch Baris and Cahaly at Trafalgar Group along with solidly liberal Glenn Greenwald and Matt Taibbi, amongst others.
Those folks also fully understood why it is the NeverTrump NeoCons were inevitably returning to the left/dem side of the aisle due to their recognition that a more populist GOP wouldn't continue to support the endless wars and wealth transfer to the ever increasing security state/military industrial complex and Grifter Conservative Inc.
I don't answer my phone when I don't know the number, so it's impossible to poll me.
Big Mike: "Who is winning in Virginia? I know which candidate in panicked, and that would be McAwful. Plus Fox News says Youngkin is up by 8."
The dems and their judges completely control the vote counting processes along with the DOJ and the FBI.
So, by the time the "overnight vote" and the "trickle in" votes are counted, it will be McAuliffe by at least 3%.
I love answering polls but most people don't. It's too bad because you probably have mo re influence in a poll than with a vote.
The business model for pollsters is not to assess the political climate in the wild. They are paid to influence the political sentiments of the public, and then to report their progress. And as we have seen, since they're human and many of them are hacks, they have a tendency to amplify what they think their clients are wishing for.
There are very few traditional, professionally distanced pollsters out there (I think Rick Baris is one of them, and his evaluations are always at odds with the LMSM). Anybody that has ever been cold-called with a 'push-poll' knows that the business is corrupted on virtually every front. Modern American politics is a terrible cess-pit of squandered virtues and cynical motives.
"I found that many dismissed, but laughed nervously about, the least scientifically sound idea of all, which unfortunately would have looked on the surface like a fix in 2020: just artificially slapping four extra points of support on Trump’s side."
I have an even less "scientific" theory; pollsters lie to encourage democrat and depress (nay, 'suppress') republican voters.
Who responds to polling people?
WHO?
...and if we're still undercounting Republican support and a bipartisan Fox poll has Youngkin winning by 8, how much is he really winning Virginia by?
If you don't undercount GOP, then it is much harder to explain why there are so many Democrat votes for an unpopular candidate.
"So even out of those they reach, a probably statistically significant number lie to them."
The image is of conservative voters avoiding polls or lying. It's never even considered that there are public leftists living a lie.
I've been led down this road many times. "WOW it's close. Could be a GOP upset!"
I think the media hype is designed mainly to encourage Democrat voters to vote. It's the media's Get Out the Vote effort.
I believe the Democrat will win. GOP voters will be disappointed. I think that state is blue and staying blue.
"Polling in America is still broken."
Good. Reliable as anything else in the newspaper or TV. Would be well if folks came to understand that.
If the pollsters want better data to be more accurate, they are going to have to resort to good old fashioned shoe leather polling. Relying on telecommunications is a recipe for disaster.
On a side note, I would appreciate a door to door polling of Senator Manchin, just for my own curiosity.
We have these things called "elections" where the votes for candidates are submitted and tallied and one candidate wins and the others don't. That is the only poll of any significance. The rest are mere entertainment, and at most fodder for politicians and news media to sway the electorate toward their desired candidate.
It ain't a horse race. It is an election.
Who is winning in Virginia? Whoever is counting the votes.
I answered a political poll last year just for fun- I lied on every single question. Fuck all of them.
I was polled once a few years ago by landline for my thoughts about a local development issue. They poller wants to know everything about you - age, race, education, sexual proclivities, income . . .
Ever since then, I just say "I'm busy".
"Across the country, pollsters seemed to systematically undercount GOP support [in 2020], despite the fact that they were trying very hard, after some issues in 2016, not to do that."
"Seemed to." Strange how that always seems to happen.
But at least they're "trying very hard."
It's too bad they run into "some issues."
Even putting political bias aside, I see no reason to answer or trust a poll. They have proven themselves inaccurate at best, and fraudulent/manipulative at worst.
If they are under counting Republicans and yet the Republican guy is 6-8 points ahead of McAdolf, then it's now so far a lead even cheating won't help.
From "Polling in America Is Still Broken. So Who Is Really Winning in Virginia?" (NY Magazine).
Youngkin has a massive lead with actual voters.
McCauliffe has a massive lead in mail in and harvested ballots.
"The likely problem, in short, is that [pollsters] simply aren’t reaching a significant number of voters activated by Trump."
But the problem isn't a problem: polls are tools to shape the Dem narrative and mobilize Dem voters.
Of course, many of the right don't want to be tools for tools. But the deplorable resistance has the unintended consequence of reinforcing the narrative, though not necessarily the mobilization.
In general, America's ruling class doesn't care one bit about not "reaching" a segment of the population. As longs a they can usefully revile them and then control them.
Despite the real, general trend of undercounting Republican votes in polls, Virginia had the opposite issue in the last election for governor. Northam led the last round of pre-election polls by about 3%, and won the actual vote by about 9%. The fact that general trends are just that - general but not universal - makes it even harder to predict any given race.
I agree with Temujin. This is laying the groundwork to explain why McAuliffe wins, despite all the bad polls.
McAuliffe better lose else the January 6th movement will take over Congress.
I mention this a lot in comments but nobody listens.
Some polls I saw for the '20 election were Democrat +8 or +10.
It's nothing but propaganda.
'Izvestia' would be proud...
Btw, the purpose for doing this is to show an artificially inflated lead for the favored party/candidate to suppress the opposition vote.
It's like calling Florida early for a Democrat and not waiting for the heavily conservative panhandle numbers.
The whole system is corrupt.
If it's a known unknown, you can adjust your results to account for it. In this case, maybe it's more of an estimated unknown, but still, with each election cycle you get new data that you can use to tune your adjustments more finely. You should be able to get closer to reflecting reality even if you still can't reach certain types of people.
There's absolutely ZERO evidence, the polling companies "Try hard" to get an accurate count of Republican votes. They vastly undercounted Republican/Trump's support in 2014,2016, 2018, and 2020. You have to go all the way back to Romney's 2012 POTUS Run to find a case where they undercounted D votes.
This is an age old "problem". Remember the 1994 R landslide that took everyone by surprise? It occurs because undercounting the R vote SUPRESSES the R vote. Tell pepole their candidate is losing, and they don't show up and vote. Politics 101.
“I don't answer my phone when I don't know the number, so it's impossible to poll me.”
I think in the infancy of polling it was sometimes the custom to send out people with clipboards to go door to door asking for a few minutes of your time. Not everyone had a phone in the thirties or forties. Maybe they could give in person polling a try once again. It would cost a lot more, but cost isn’t everything. Some people might be willing to pay more for better results.
But I’m afraid pollsters may not be all that interested in accuracy. The problems with contemporary polling seem real, but they provide great cover to those who want to be biased, or are just lazy or incompetent. “Sure, we were off, but so was everyone”.
Up until about five years ago, I'd have answered polls. Not that I recall having been asked more than a couple of times. Since I'm retired, I have a lot less to lose if my identity and preferences get out. Long ago, one of the two or three pollsters I talked to seemed kind of sketchy. So I added, "my primary MOS was Light Weapons Infantry. My commissioned MOS was Airborne Infantry Small Unit Commander. And I don't sleep well." Word to the wise. Wonder what he thought. Never had a problem.
There is plenty of evidence, viz Wikileaks, that pollsters "try hard" to skew public polling to favor Democrats. In fact there is a 37 page memo in Wikileaks, from the Democrats, on how to do it, for instance, suggesting that certain favorable suburbs around Orlando be called, and the like. And now they wonder why Republicans don't trust pollsters.
"If it's a known unknown, you can adjust your results to account for it."
And yet, they never do.
Democrat political theory goes back to a book "The Power of Habit" and for them it is essential to get your people victories, and to deny your opponents victories. If Republicans were to score a victory in Virginia leading up to the mid-terms, Democrats would be at risk in the mid terms of losing control of trillions of dollars in spending.
Don't you ever consider the possibility that control of trillions of dollars is enough to motivate cheating in elections that are largely run on the "honor system." That would never happen! It's against human nature! People are all honest, except Republicans. And of course no corrupt person would choose to be a Democrat because then he would get press cover for all of his skulduggery. That's a ridiculous idea!
There's absolutely ZERO evidence, the polling companies "Try hard" to get an accurate count of Republican votes. They vastly undercounted Republican/Trump's support in 2014,2016, 2018, and 2020.
+1
There are three possibilities:
(1) the pollsters are systematically wrong.
(2) the Democrats are cheating.
(3) the Republicans are cheating.
All the attention here goes to the first and second explanations, but I think we need to give more consideration to the third. If you look at what Republicans tried to do on January 6, and how they have been changing the ballot rules in various states since then, why shouldn’t we assume Republicans have been cheating in other ways too?
Trump’s directive to find more votes in Georgia suggests he believed there was some way that could be done. We know from the 2018 Georgia governor’s race that Republicans there know how to cheat. If they just didn’t cheat quite enough for Trump to win Georgia in 2020, that would explain why Trump undermined the two Senate runoffs in Georgia, which Republicans were on track to win.
Maybe publicly releasing polling results within X days of an election should be illegal.
I'm not a 1A or election expert, but it's not like there isn't precedent for putting limits on speech in connection with elections.
And it seems obvious that they can have a corrupting influence. There is a reason federal law was changed long ago to require all states to hold national elections on the same day, and why even now early voting totals generally aren't (can't be?) released before election day.
I'd be interested in hearing the strongest case for how the republic benefits by having public polls.
I know I'm not the only one who thought about ordering more ammo when Fox News declared a Dem pickup of 15 House seats on election night, only to learn later that the Dems actually lost multiple seats.
They don't want to be right.
Best if candidates and parties state their policies and intentions, without "poll-testing" them.
That's why I rarely answer poll calls, and if I do, I give random answers.
Howard: "McAuliffe better lose else the January 6th movement will take over Congress."
Viking horn hats would be flying off the shelves........if only our shelves weren't empty.
rcocean said...There's absolutely ZERO evidence, the polling companies "Try hard" to get an accurate count of Republican votes.
This is a common attitude on the right, where many of us see polling companies as part of the opposition, their purpose to manipulate the vote rather than to predict the vote. But I think that's going too far. Polling companies are businesses and their product is reliable voter information. If they become too unreliable, their clients will drop them and they will go bankrupt. Polling is expensive. There are much cheaper ways to lie if that's all a campaign wants.
"Polling companies are businesses and their product is reliable voter information."
For those that pay for it, and public polling is a product too, and those that pay for it prefer that it serve to manipulate the electorate.
I also want to get your Atlas folks to recommend oversamples for our polling before we start in February. By market, regions, etc. I want to get this all compiled into one set of recommendations so we can maximize what we get out of our media polling. John Podesta, Hillary's campaign manager, via Wikileaks.
Well, I was looking for the Wikileaks thing on poll manipulation and came upon this one from John Podesta where he was negotiating with the Russians for his 75K shares of a company designed to suck up "green energy" "investments." Nancy Pelosi's son still has his job with a "Green Energy Company" in Ukraine, because she won her election!
https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/4635
"Across the country, pollsters seemed to systematically undercount GOP support [in 2020], despite the fact that they were trying very hard, after some issues in 2016, not to do that."
Assumes facts not in evidence. The vast majority of the polls are run by groups taht are outright Democrat partisans (ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN, PBS/NRP, NYT, WaPo for example).
Polling companies are businesses and their product is reliable voter information. If they become too unreliable, their clients will drop them and they will go bankrupt.
No, their business is producing polls that make their customers happy. If you have an honest customer, than a correct poll makes the customer happy.
If, OTOH, your'e polling for people with an agenda, any poll result that advances the customer's agenda is what makes them happy, and what gets the money flowing in.
Emerson did a good job in 2016 and 2020, IIRC. The problem isn't lack of ability, it's lack of desire. And no lies will change that
Left Bank of the Charles said...
All the attention here goes to the first and second explanations, but I think we need to give more consideration to the third. If you look at what Republicans tried to do on January 6, and how they have been changing the ballot rules in various states since then, why shouldn’t we assume Republicans have been cheating in other ways too?
1: How horrible! They're changing State laws to ... make vote fraud harder!11! They must be cheating!12!
2: Her's a very useful metric: the side that opposes audits of teh election? They['re the one cheating
Trump’s directive to find more votes in Georgia
Do you ever get tired of lying? Or are you just a total ignoramus?
The part of the discussion you're ignoring is the part where Trump gave a list of over 110 thousand questionable votes, pointed out it's their job to find illegal votes, and then pointed out that finding out that even 12,000 of those questionable votes being found to be illegal would flip the election.
Which is to say: only a lying sack of sh!t would pretend there's anything wrong with what Trump said there
Undercounting Republicans allows the left to pretend their policies are more popular than they actually are
Blogger Left Bank of the Charles said... "if you look at what Republicans tried to do on January 6, and how they have been changing the ballot rules in various states since then..."
Democrats tried the same procedures and more to prevent Trump from taking office in 2016. Glad you can acknowledge that means they are willing to cheat and steal elections.
Democrats publicly supported rioters throughout 2020, even when they were torching federal buildings and physically intimidating, surrounding and threatening violence literally in the face of our elected representatives. Rand Paul was in far greater fear for his and his wife's safety in the midst of antifa and BLM rioters on the streets of DC, and reasonably so, than was any politician on 1/6.
I also remind you that before the Republicans started changing voting rules following the 2020 election (by using the legally sanctioned and democratic method of doing so), the Democrats alternatively changed and violated voting laws by diktat and by bureaucrat. And some of the rule changes the Rs are seeking are simply to go back to pre-COVID rules, which the Ds claim is, you guessed it, RACIST!
There's polling whose numbers are made public for whatever reason. What is "internal polling"? Far as I can tell, that is numbers made available to party operatives to manage campaign and public relations. Or is that another category? Would one be more accurate than another?
This article presumes that the inaccuracy of the polls is unintentional.
Polling companies are businesses and their product is reliable voter information.
In a sane world.
In our world they are ways to pay Democratic allies and operatives big payoffs from campaigns, while the polls they produce are used to depress Republican turnout and encourage Democratic turnout.
How else do you explain the facts that the polls are consistently and universally wrong, in one direction, in election after election, and yet are continued to be used by the MSM in their election coverage?
Greg (to Left Bank): "Do you ever get tired of lying? Or are you just a total ignoramus?"
Left Bank is only a slightly less moronic version of gadfly....which is still, you know, how shall I say? How can I put this into words? What term would be most apropos here?
Oh yes. Sorry for the delay.
Moronic.
I think McAuliffe has gotten between Mama Grizzly and her cubs. But can polling pick up a rather unfocused trend? The bathroom incident in "Loudoun County" happened at Stone Bridge High School in Ashburn, a recently-built, suburban community. How are Ashburn parents reacting? How many Fairfax parents understand where Stone Bridge is? and that it is a school where 85 or 90% of the students are grade-level proficient in Math and English, i.e., this is a suburban school. And that it is diverse and teaches the children of successful minorities? And that CRT is being taught there? And that Merrick Garland is denouncing suburban parents as domestic terrorists? And that McAuliffe is saying that suburban parents have no say in their children's education? And that parents were lied to about how safe their children were? and about what they were being taught? I believe that the school system is the number one reason why parents chose a community and I believe very large numbers understand Stone Bridge is suburban. But what question would turn up what I believe to be converging data points? And what will be the consequences? Unknown.
Happy news item from earlier today:
Say goodbye to Pelosi Poodle Adam Kinzinger.
I'll bet he's crying all the way to the bathroom as we speak....assuming Nancy approved Li'l Adam's trip to the Little Congressman's Room to powder his nose.
I also want to get your Atlas folks to recommend oversamples for our polling before we start in February. By market, regions, etc. I want to get this all compiled into one set of recommendations so we can maximize what we get out of our media polling. John Podesta, Hillary's campaign manager, via Wikileaks.
The amazing thing we learned is that when they did get the "compiled" instructions on cooking polls for the Democrats, the media never raised a peep about it. The document he requested was produced, and it's on Wikileaks too. Any honest person who wants to understand how media polls really work, should read it. Except then you might have to question the other stuff the media is telling you, so avoid that red pill.
"Fox News declared a Dem pickup of 15 House seats on election night, only to learn later that the Dems actually lost multiple seats."
Yeah, I was done with Fox, Tucker or no Tucker.
VA Dems are pretty desperate when McAuliffe's staffers were caught posing as "white supremacists" at a Republican rally, and right away, Democrats operatives in the press came out with guns ablazing saying that "This is disqualifying." Well it is, for McAuliffe.
https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/matt-margolis/2021/10/29/tiki-torch-wielding-virginia-dems-caught-faking-white-supremacist-photo-op-to-smear-glenn-youngkin-n1528014
What must it be like to defend these liars every day.
I believe Democrats will do whatever they have to do to keep their former chair from losing just as they kept Trump from winning in 2020. They are a party of criminals.
Prediction: Youngkin will lead McAuliffe by a comfortable 4 to 5 point margin at the end of "counting" on election night. Strangely, that lead will evaporate by the time we wake up Wednesday morning and we will essentially have a dead heat. During the next few days mail in and absentee ballots will be "counted". Oh, and a few thousand ballots will be "found" that somehow got missed before. And no one will know how that happened. This will give McAualiffe the win by just enough to avoid triggering a recount.
Any bets?
Gahrie said...How else do you explain the facts that the polls are consistently and universally wrong, in one direction,
It pleases me to think that conservatives are much more likely than liberals to lie to pollsters.
But does polling favoring Democrats make Republicans stay home? Depends. That case where FL was called for the D while the polls were still open in the Panhandle certainly seems to cut that way. But in a lot of other instances, it's polls showing the D barely leading the R or even slightly behind that seem to boost D turnout. I think this had a lot to do with the two GA Senatorial wins early this year.
Basically, Rs tend to win when they aren't dispirited, and Ds tend to win when they're desperate. That is, R turnout will drop when the case is avowedly hopeless (e.g., polls have closed), but D turnout will rise if they think Rs are winning.
I see that Chuck's pedophile friends are out looking for Young Blood
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/lincoln-project-admits-to-planting-fake-unite-the-right-members-at-youngkin-rally
A reporter for NBC 29 tweeted a picture Friday morning showing five people dressed in white shirts and khakis while holding tiki torches, standing in front of Youngkin's campaign bus. The group's outfits were similar to those worn by some attendees of the 2018 "United the Right" rally in Charlottesville, Va., where multiple white supremacist groups protested and one person was killed.
So, As I read this; The Lincoln Pedophile Project people are Also admitting, that THEY staged the Charlottesville stuff. Am I reading that Right Chuck; 'cause i'm pretty sure You'd Know
Here's the most obvious explanation for the 2020 polls, and probably current polls.
In 2016 election, he exit polls showed Dems and Reps very close in terms of percentage of electorate, with Dems maybe a one point advantage.
But the 2020 polls (at least the Economist/Yougov poll which to their credit posts a breakdown which shows percentage of Dems and Reps and Ind in their polling) showed a substantially larger percentage of Dems than Reps. (8-12 percent difference if I recall).
Then the 2020 election exit polls again showed Dem/Rep with approximately the same percentage of actual voting.
So the polls -- either deliberately or through a badly flawed sampling methodology -- choose a polling sampling that over sample Dems and undersample Reps.
President Lincoln should sue the "Lincoln project" and insist they re-name themselves the 'lying liars who lie pudge pudding pedos'
Tim in vermont: "What must it be like to defend these liars every day."
LLR Chuck us a case study in this.
Michelle: "Basically, Rs tend to win when they aren't dispirited, and Ds tend to win when they're desperate. That is, R turnout will drop when the case is avowedly hopeless (e.g., polls have closed), but D turnout will rise if they think Rs are winning."
Democratical turnout always increases AFTER the polls have closed.
Jersey Fled: "Any bets?"
Nope.
That is exactly what will happen. Thats why the democraticals are so open about their intent. They no longer seem worried about election results...as if they already know the answer.
It appears entirely likely that the phony white supremacists at the Youngkin bus incident yesterday were Democrat operatives, two having been positively identified as such. But, the Lincoln Project publicly claimed credit for the dirty trick, so it's also very likely that the Lincoln Project is merely taking the heat for a McAuliffe stunt that blew up in his face. After all, the Lincoln Project "Republicans" contributed $300K to the McAuliffe campaign and needs to protect it's investment. Yet, the part that's appalling to me is that the phony smear was based on the Charlottesville phony smear that Alhouse, herself, debunked on this very blog last year, to wit: Trump said there were good people on either side of the Charlottesville violence when he was proven to be referring to good people on either side of the statue removal issue, which was true. So, McAuliffe's people staged a phony racial incident with Democrat partisans to smear Youngkin, an incident which was based on the phony racial incident that was the MSM Charlottesville fantasy, then the LLRs of the LP tried to cover for the corrupt Democrats when it blew up. You can't make this crap up!
Chuck must be one very proud LLR if he has any pride left.
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