August 12, 2021

"Since when does America give anything good to Black people first?" said the Black Lives Matter, when he heard about politicians prioritizing vaccinating minorities.

From "Why Only 27 Percent of Young Black New Yorkers Are Vaccinated/As the Delta variant courses through New York City, many young Black New Yorkers remain distrustful of the vaccine" (NYT). 

People are suspicious of favoritism! Maybe it's not a favor at all. 

In interviews, Black men and women said that much of their distrust of the coronavirus vaccine was shaped by their own experiences with discrimination or their identity as Black Americans...

“They came out with one so fast for Covid, and now they want to pay you to take it,” [one black man] said. “It seems fishy.”...

“It takes a little bit of hyper-vigilance when you’re a woman of color,” said Jazmine Shavuo-Goodwin, 31, who believes she encountered medical racism when doctors were dismissive of her severe stomach problems. “There’s a lot of homework you have to do, because your doctors may not truly listen to you, to your full complaint, before they’ve already diagnosed you.”... 

Many Black New Yorkers struggled to make sense of why their community suffered so in that first wave. Some of the fears about the vaccine go back centuries, through the nation’s long history of medical experimentation on Black enslaved people and later on Black citizens.

In interviews, some Black New Yorkers mentioned the government’s decades-long Tuskegee syphilis experiment — in which doctors withheld treatment from Black men with syphilis. Distrust for the vaccine has also been reinforced by contemporary injustices.

In interviews, a number of Black New Yorkers wondered how vaccines for Covid-19 could have emerged so quickly, but not one for H.I.V., which has disproportionately affected Black Americans....

One of the three vaccines — the single-shot Johnson & Johnson — had been directed to Black and Latino communities, among other places.... [I]n April, the federal government ordered a brief suspension of the Johnson & Johnson vaccine after it was linked to blood clots in the brains of several women. 
“It reaffirmed my hesitance, it reaffirmed everything,” Ms. Shavuo-Goodwin, the graduate student and clinic manager, said. “It just shows Black lives don’t matter. You can test that on us just like you tested syphilis on us.”

55 comments:

BADuBois said...

But all The Brightest Minds™ assured us that the refusal to take the vaccine was due to all those MAGA-hat wearing, knuckle-dragging, sister-loving members of the red states!

damianlewis719 said...

I have heard a lot in the last couple of years about QAnon spreading conspiracy theories on the right. Is there an equivalent group in the black community?

Mike of Snoqualmie said...

During last year's election race, Joe Biden and Kamala Harris told them not to take it. They listened and aren't taking it. They also see Joe's senile and don't trust Kamala. So, no reason to believe anything J & K says about the vaccine.

J. D. Canals said...

Those numbers are duplicated in the Hispanic communities. Trust me, I know.

Jake said...

Doctors not listening you your "full complaint" is not unique to people of color. But we all only have our own personal perspectives so I guess it probably feels like it's only happening to you when it does.

rcocean said...

Again we're in patronizing "Blacks need to treated like special needs kids" territory. if they do something dumb like not get vaccinated, "oh, its understandble because..wait for it..racism". Gee, is there anything wrong about Black folks that isn't due to racism?

As for being vaccinated, its never been shown why young people under 25, need to be vaccinated. They either don't get COVID-19 or if they do, they don't die from it. Death from CV-19 comes almost entirely to people over 60, and those with serious co-morditities like morbid obisity or advance diabetes or lung disease.

But is there any point in applying logic? The Elite and a large number of leftist/liberals just want the lockdowns and mask wearing to continue. They like it.

Paul Zrimsek said...

The paranoid style in black American politics.

Chuck said...

Right. So as all of the Trump fans now say something like, "See? Inner city blacks are even worse than TrumpWorld on getting vaccinated...", I just want to say that I excuse NO ONE from getting the vaccine.

I understand the historical backdrop leading to black distrust of medical institutions. But it's no excuse.

I am trying to think of any corollary among black leadership in the United States, to people like Rand Paul, Ron Johnson, Marjorie Taylor Greene, Jim Jordan, and frankly too many others to list. 100% of Democrats in Congress are vaccinated. The Obamas are vaccinated. Oprah Winfrey is vaccinated. Jesse Jackson, with severe medical issues of his own, has championed vaccines. I cannot think of a major black political leader who has not strongly advocated vaccinations.

And as Philip Bump of the Washington Post notes, with blacks making up a smaller percentage of the US population, the fact that their vaccination rates are lower as a percentage of their own demographic nevertheless means that their vaccination failures are less harmful to American society than whites' failures.

Bump notes something else that is interesting from surveys; while the percentage of blacks who haven't gotten vaccinated is distressingly high, the percentage of blacks who say that they will never accept a COVID vaccine is lower than in the white population. There is a very good basis to suggest that problems of access, and not attitude, are what drives the black/white vaccination numbers.

Here's the Philip Bump column:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/08/04/what-about-black-people-defense-republican-vaccine-hesitancy/

Anon said...

Ms. Shavuo-Goodwin is right that you need vigilance in dealing with doctors. They don't always listen and often have preconceptions of a diagnosis. If it turns out wrong, they will blame the patient, in my (non minority) experience. It's best to have someone to act as an advocate with you.

wendybar said...

Chuck said "There is a very good basis to suggest that problems of access, and not attitude, are what drives the black/white vaccination numbers."

Maybe if they didn't burn down the Walgreens during the Summer of Love in some areas, or steal everything they could under $900.00 to close the Walgreens like they did in San Francisco they would HAVE access. In most cities there is a drug store on every corner. Why do Progressives think blacks are too dumb to figure out where to go to get an ID or a vaccine???

Mike (MJB Wolf) said...

Does anybody on here think it is conservatives and Trump voters who created distrust among Blacks? Even the guy who wrote that above doesn't believe his own BS. So let's put his trusted sources on the case shall we?

NPR

WaPo

Fivethirtyeight

Yahoo News

Brookings

Bloomberg

Boy that was so hard to find!

Can Of Cheese for Hunter said...

Mixed messages from the elites doesn't help.

Kamala Harris says she will be ‘first in line’ for a coronavirus vaccine if health experts approve it, but ‘if Donald Trump tells us we should take it, then I’m not taking it.’

Tina Trent said...

There were scores of (to modern eyes) horrific medical experiments performed on white people too. Given the extraordinary toll syphilis was taking specifically in the black community, while no sane person would endorse Tuskegee today, back then, syphilis was a black scourge that disabled and disfigured and killed vast numbers of men, women, and even black infants. Diseases that affected or were thought to affect whites more were also often the subject of experiments -- some very gory -- preformed on whites or white women without their knowledge or approval. See: lobotomies. My great-aunt was lobotomized in one such "experiment" and spent the rest of her many decades locked away in a mental institution unable to walk, talk, or feed herself. She was apparently brilliant. I was in junior high when she died.

We just don't go on about this endlessly while prattling that our "status" makes us have to work harder than other people.

Also, per Bump, while in some urban communities, mass looting and street violence have driven away many chain pharmacies, that is only the fault of the residents who keep voting in anti-police politicians. Yet, even in those places, public health clinics are still widely available for walk-in vaccinations. So are mobile vans, AmeriCorps and VISTAs going door-to-door and to workplaces, church-outreach inoculation centers, and hospitals. Vaccinations are offered at public schools, in grocery stores, and in countless community centers in addition to whatever pharmacies haven't been looted out of business or burnt to the ground. Barber Shops and Beauty Salons can schedule a booth. We did the same thing with AIDS tests 30 years ago. I bet I could find any Bump-ish whiner free transportation or even a short walk to an available vaccination on the very same day.

'Poor people can't get access to vaccines' is the lefty meme of the day. Anyone who can find a bag of Fritos can find a vaccination.

retail lawyer said...

"Since when does America give anything good to Black people first?"

I think it started around 1966 with some Great Society stuff and then Affirmative Action starting in 1970 and currently raging with Government grants of all sorts reserved for Blacks in blatant violation of the 14th Amendment. Well, maybe the first batch of Great Society stuff really wasn't good, but the effort was sincere.

Chuck said...

One other thing; the reason that the Jansen J&J vaccine was directed to inner-city locations (among other locations) was that it did not require super-freezers. Public health officials felt all along that the J&J was best for small clinic outlets, as opposed to major medical centers. Based on freezer availability

That said, there were plenty of places in New York, Philadelphia, Detroit, Chicago, Memphis, Kansas City, Los Angeles, etc., etc., etc., for urban blacks to go to major medical centers and get Pfizer or Moderna.

Tina Trent said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Richard Aubrey said...

I talked to a lady in Urgent Care who said they needed to be able to understand the expression of pain in thirty-seven cultures. That seemed excessive in west Michigan, so I asked around.
An ER doc said you can do anything to a blue hair. But urban hipsters cry like babies. Farmers won't come in until the harvest is done.
When I took my father to various medical places, I would say he played football in the days of leather helmets, was wounded several times fighting the Germans, and if he weren't Catholic, he'd be a puritan. They all appreciated the information in discussing his issues.
So it's possible that a physician didn't appreciate the black expression of pain, or perhaps thought it was overdone, that being how people in the black community express pain and joy--said another urgent care worker I talked to.
Asians are very tight-lipped, said one, which can actually lead to misdiagnosis.
I have no direct experience here, but this is what people in the business have told me when asked about the issue.
And some doctors just don't listen well. Others make a diagnosis and confirmation bias keeps them from modifying it.

Temujin said...

1) We're all guinea pigs on this vaccine. No one who has received the covid vaccine is any more or any less a guinea pig. Those who have not been vaccinated are also important because they are our control group. We can see what happens, or does not happen, to those who have not been 'treated' with the vaccine.

2) If your doctor ignores you, or knows what his or her diagnosis is before you start talking, you should consider yourself part of the American public and know that you are, with a handful of exceptions, getting the same frustrating medical care as the rest of the population. You are neither held in high or low regard. You are just not a medical school teacher or graduate, which seem to be the only people doctors will listen to (which is why I prefer a functional medicine doc for most things, but not all).

3) Nice to see an article in the NYT that acknowledges the Black community has hesitancy about getting this vaccine. As does the Hispanic community. And I have to tell you, I was among the first in line for my doses last January, but the more info that we now have, the more data that comes out, the more hesitant I will be to consider a booster. The corporate media, Democrats some Republicans, and of course, Big Tech, don't want anyone to know any new data that has been tracked since the vaccines have been used. But the info is out there, and it's worth considering. I'll probably get Althouse in trouble with Google for saying all of this.

4) My largest takeaway from the entire Wuhan experience is that it is clear that our 'leaders' don't have a clue as to the proper next step, masks are for show, and that we need more time and clarity to let the actual data be processed, shared, and used before any other major declarations. In the meantime, those who have been infected have an extremely high rate of recovery (as well as a large dose of antibodies). A rate so high that, if it were any other disease, we would not even be talking about it, let alone closing down countries over it.

Wa St Blogger said...

Go to your local hardware store, buy one of those cheap curtain rods that are made out of folded sheet metal. Now, bend it until the metal creases. Next try and hang a curtain off of it. Many a time in my youth my activity around the curtains in my room gave this result, and very little I could do to make it so the rod would support even the lightest curtain.

This is how it is with trust. When you break trust, it is almost impossible to set it right again. This has happened with blacks in America, and it is what is happening to many Americans. Tell me, how do you repair that trust? Berating them and calling them names might work very well, given how often it is applied as a tactic.

Omaha1 said...

I can't imagine the NYT publishing an article so sympathetic to Trump supporters that are vaccine hesitant. This is racial pandering in the extreme. I had my shots but unlike many leftists I don't think the unvaccinated deserve to die or be ridiculed.

Mike (MJB Wolf) said...

RFK who is the subject of the NPOR link I provided is the single best known anti-vax spokesperson, now that Jim Carrey's ex-wife reformed. The Kennedys are not known for being Trumpists, are they?

Chuck said...

Mike (MJB Wolf) said...
Does anybody on here think it is conservatives and Trump voters who created distrust among Blacks? Even the guy who wrote that above doesn't believe his own BS. So let's put his trusted sources on the case shall we?


I think no such thing. I think that the fever swamps of far-right and Trumpist social media created vaccine trust among Whites, and not Blacks.

The fear and ignorance among White vaccine-refusers and among Black vaccine refusers are two very different types of fear and ignorance.

So is it your position that the vaccine refusers who are black, are the same kind of freedom-loving, informed, inquiring, independent-minded lovers of American liberty as Rand Paul? Is that what we are to make of all vaccine refusers? Is that the operating presumption about vaccine refusers? That they are just exercising their Constitutional rights?

Andrew said...

I genuinely wonder how much of perceived racism is simply "the real world." Sometimes doctors get things wrong. They misdiagnosed, or don't take a patient seriously, or a test they order is negative but should have been positive. Sometimes doctors are jerks, or are simply having a bad day.

I once went to an ER, and the doctor on site acted like he was annoyed to have to deal with something so insignificant. But I can only imagine what its like to be an ER doctor, and I didn't take it personally. He ran some tests, and reassured me that what I was worried about wasn't a concern. He prescribed something, and that was it. The idea that a bad experience with a doctor is automatically a sign of racism is juvenile. It's just reality.

I never read his book, but I remember hearing that Ta-nehisi Coates complained about racism in NYC. He gave an example of a woman being rude to him and a family member. In NYC? It's a miracle in NYC when people are kind and courteous all the time. "Dear beloved but sensitive POC, it's not always about you."

Many years ago on SNL Eddie Murphy did a skit where he pretended to be white, and everyone was good to him if no black people were around. A bank gave him free money, etc. It seems that a lot of black people think this is accurate, and any negative expeeiences must be rooted in racism. I don't know how you penetrate that kind of perspective. One thing is for sure: it won't be challenged by any journalists.

Iman said...

Why do Progressives think blacks are too dumb to figure out where to go to get an ID or a vaccine???

It’s that damnable soft bigotry of exceedingly low expectations, Wendybar.

Michelle Dulak Thomson said...

Why do Progressives think blacks are too dumb to figure out where to go to get an ID or a vaccine?

Well, wendybar, if you think the way most people get a photocopy made is to go to Kinko's, which vanished a decade ago, perhaps you're too dependent on the photocopier in your own freakin' office to ponder on How The Other Half Lives. (Or, really, the other 95%.) But, yes, the barely-buried substrate in a lot of these discussions is that Black and Hispanic people just aren't up to navigating those super-confusing waterways of "try your local drugstore" and the like. Which is tosh.

Skippy Tisdale said...

"I have heard a lot in the last couple of years about QAnon spreading conspiracy theories on the right. Is there an equivalent group in the black community?"

The New York Times, Associated Press, NPR, etc...

Their perpetual cries of systemic racism clearly has an impact, just not the one intended.

Skippy Tisdale said...

"I just want to say that I excuse NO ONE from getting the vaccine."

Who the fuck are you?

Andrew said...

@Chuck:
Robert Kennedy Jr. is a Republican? He's been banging the anti-vax drum for a long time. I've heard no one in the media name him as a source of misinformation.

Tom T. said...

LeBron James has refused to disclose his vaccination status.

jaydub said...

"100% of Democrats in Congress are vaccinated. The Obamas are vaccinated. Oprah Winfrey is vaccinated."

This is the second time you've posted this. How do you know it's true and why should I care? Were you there? I remember Obama getting awarded the lie of the year for "if you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor." What's changed?

R C Belaire said...

And this is one of the reasons we'll all be wearing masks again by, say, the end of September...

Quaestor said...

How about eligibility for merit scholarships with substantial lower GPAs and SATs than whites?

Amadeus 48 said...

Based on my everyday experience, I'd say that most black Americans want the same thing that most other Americans want: a chance to do well for themselves and their families. Does nursing the grievances of the past help achieve that? Probably not, if it leads to avoiding medical advances and lowering standards of knowledge and mental skill.

Most successful black Americans do the same thing that most other successful Americans do: they practice bourgeois values in their everyday lives. It is boring, perhaps, but necessary for most people. No one is going to prosper waiting around to receive recompense for wrongs they never personally suffered.

brylun said...

Thanks Mike (MJB Wolf)!

I wonder why Bump and Chuck didn't mention Robert F. Kennedy Jr.?

typingtalker said...

rcocean wrote, "As for being vaccinated, its never been shown why young people under 25, need to be vaccinated. They either don't get COVID-19 or if they do, they don't die from it. Death from CV-19 comes almost entirely to people over 60, and those with serious co-morditities like morbid obisity or advance diabetes or lung disease."

But when unvaccinated young people under 25 get COVID-19, they give it to others -- often "to people over 60, and those with serious co-morditities like morbid obisity or advance diabetes or lung disease."

Vaccination is not just about keeping the vaccinated healthy -- it is also about keeping the disease from spreading.

Chris Lopes said...

"I just want to say that I excuse NO ONE from getting the vaccine."

As much as we all crave your validation Chuck, I seriously doubt most members of the minority community give a flying fig what you or I think. They are making a choice based on a history of unreliable advice being given to them by people in charge. Skepticism of authority is a very American idea.

Keep in mind, I'm writing as a person who has been vaccinated. I think it's a good idea. I also think being skeptical is a good idea.

Unknown said...

Mississippi Public Broadcasting has a really well produced public service announcement promoting vaccination. Maybe half a dozen actors. All of them African American. MPB knows who it needs to reach, which group needs to be persuaded.

gadfly said...

Mike of Snoqualmie said...
"During last year's election race, Joe Biden and Kamala Harris told them not to take it. They listened and aren't taking it."

Before the Pfizer vaccine was released - during the VP debate between Harris and Pence as a matter of fact - Kamala responded to a question by stating that if a vaccine was approved she would take it when medical professionals supported it but not if support came only from the mouth of Donald Trump.

Twisting that preliminary comment as advising against taking the real vaccine is dishonest at best.

who-knew said...

Chuck asks "Is that the operating presumption about vaccine refusers? That they are just exercising their Constitutional rights?" Yes, I believe that is the operating presumption and that it should be the operating premise. There are a million answers to the question of getting the vaccine and in the end, it's their right to answer no. I might not agree with their reasons, I might even think they're acting irrationally and basing their decision on a silly conspiracy theory, but it's not my place to judge someone else's medical decisions.

Chris Lopes said...

"Twisting that preliminary comment as advising against taking the real vaccine is dishonest at best."

Certainly no more dishonest than suggesting Trump started a riot at the Capitol building. Playing it fast and loose with your opponent's words is a time honored tradition in politics. Let's cut the Inspector Renault crap.

Michelle Dulak Thomson said...

R. C. Belaire,

And this is one of the reasons we'll all be wearing masks again by, say, the end of September...

Well, in Oregon, try tomorrow. That's when the new mask mandate kicks in here. On Friday the 13th, natch.

Chuck said...

Robert F. Kennedy Jr. is a deranged, unhinged, anti-vax fanatic. And so, naturally, when the newly-elected (and sometime vaxxer himself) Donald J. Trump was meeting with possible cabinet nominees in Trump Tower in early January 2017 before he was inaugurated, Trump met with RFKJr to talk about vaccines, which led Kennedy to walk out of the meeting and declare to the press that he had gotten Trump to agree in principle to make Kennedy part of some sort of Presidential Investigative Commission on vaccines. Which caused the few responsible people who were then involved with the nascent Trump Administration to immediately walk it all back in the most urgent way possible.

Althouse blogged it at the time. And I was an active commenter:

https://althouse.blogspot.com/2017/01/president-elect-trump-has-some-doubts.html

I've been ridiculing RFKJr even longer than I've been ridiculing Trump.

Joe Smith said...

Bullshit. You're better off being black in America today than white, at least if you have an average IQ and are clean and articulate.*

Corporations fight to employ you and the government puts you at the head of the line to get handouts before everyone else.

*Joe Biden

Chuck said...

jaydub said...
"100% of Democrats in Congress are vaccinated. The Obamas are vaccinated. Oprah Winfrey is vaccinated."

This is the second time you've posted this. How do you know it's true and why should I care? Were you there? I remember Obama getting awarded the lie of the year for "if you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor." What's changed?


What I am saying is that the number of important blacks in national leadership positions, whether inside or outside of politics, who are raising doubts and causing vaccine hesitancy, is close to zero.

While the number of white Trumpists in national leadership positions, mostly within politics but many outside of politics too, who are raising doubts and causing vaccine hesitancy, is considerable. Starting with the 30+ members (not all members publicly identify) of the House Freedom Caucus. And including a handful of Republican Senators.

As for my source on the 100% vaccination rate for Democrats in Congress, CNN surveyed them all:

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2021/05/14/politics/democrats-vaccination-rates-house-mask-rules/index.html?__twitter_impression=true

Michelle Dulak Thomson said...

gadfly,

But Harris didn't say "only." She said [exact quote], "if Donald Trump tells us we should take it, then I’m not taking it." That is, Trump's mere approval was, all by itself, sufficient reason for her to stay away. No doubt the same would go for Trump suggesting sleep before a long drive, or eating three meals a day. Bad Orange Man said this is good, so this is bad! Pence's response was commendably measured, IMO.

Had she said what you tell us she said, her statement might have been defensible.

Amadeus 48 said...

If all important national black leaders have been vaccinated and all Democrats in Congress have been vaccinated, that shows how useless appeals to authority are. In Chicago, we are trying bribes ($25 gift cards). It works in buying votes. It is the Chicago way. And no doubt more than a few of those gift cards will fall off the truck.

Chuck said...

I loathe this argument that Harris was somehow urging people to not get the vaccines that were given FDA Emergency Use Authorization in December. That neve happened. The argument against Harris is a bad, stupid, Trumpist trick.

Here's the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7WD8l0Dc1I

Here's the transcript:
PAGE: No, I'm sorry. Kamala Harris -- Senator Harris, I mean, I'm sorry.

HARRIS: That's fine, I'm Kamala.

PAGE: No, no, you're Senator Harris to me. For life to get back to normal, Dr. Anthony Fauci and other experts say that most of the people who can be vaccinated need to be vaccinated. But half of Americans now say they wouldn't take a vaccine if it was released now.

If the Trump administration approves a vaccine before or after the election, should Americans take it and would you take it?

HARRIS: If the public health professionals, if Dr. Fauci, if the doctors tell us that we should take it, I'll be the first in line to take it. Absolutely. But if Donald Trump tells us I should -- that we should take it, I'm not taking it.


And let us all remember that in October of 2020, Trump was making a series of factless, bogus claims that vaccines would be released that month, or perhaps November, but not much later. Trump was deliberately pumping the false idea that somehow he would push to get a vaccine out before the election. Trump was doing it not because the science indicated it, but for his own political gain. There was widespread concern about Trump falsely promising an early vaccine, with Dr. Fauci saying (correctly as it turned out that most Americans would probably be able to get vaccinated by the second quarter of 2021. Then-Senator Harris was understandably responding to the differential between what Trump the politician was promising and what Dr. Fauci the public health expert was reporting.

Amadeus 48 said...

I eagerly await the results of the Oregon making order. Should I anticipate that remasking will stop the delta variant in its tracks? The governor could be in line for both the Nobel Prize in medicine and the Nobel Peace Prize.

I note that a large group of Portland residents have been resorting to masks in the nighttime hours. How has that worked for them?

Keith said...

Chuck said...
Mike (MJB Wolf) said...
Does anybody on here think it is conservatives and Trump voters who created distrust among Blacks? Even the guy who wrote that above doesn't believe his own BS. So let's put his trusted sources on the case shall we?


I think no such thing. I think that the fever swamps of far-right and Trumpist social media created vaccine trust among Whites, and not Blacks.

The fear and ignorance among White vaccine-refusers and among Black vaccine refusers are two very different types of fear and ignorance.

........................

In response to Chuck -
We really don't know how deadly the virus is. It is impossible for us to say 600,000 or 700,000 or whatever died from the virus. Why? Because everyone who is admitted to a hospital is Covid tested. If you die during your stay and your test was positive, Covid is listed on your death certificate. Did that young man in a motorcycle accident die from massive trauma or Covid? Obviously massive trauma. But he tested positive and so Covid is on his death certificate. What about the young woman who attempted suicide? Cancer? And so on. So we really don't know how many people died from covid.

And we can't compare the overall death rate from Covid 2020 to 2019 and assume any increase is from Covid. Why? Because of all the people missing cancer appointments and all the people not going to the ER for chest pain who end up with massive heart attacks, and all the people who won't get their pneumonia treated until it's too late because they are terrified of getting Covid so they stay home.

I work as a surgeon and this situation of people afraid to get medical care because they might get covid in the hospital was a real pandemic.

So we'll never know how many people died from Covid. Personally I know about 5 dozen people who had it now. Some young, some old, some healthy, some ill. In the very worst cases, they felt like hell - like you do when you get the real flu - but none of them became sick enough to be admitted to the hospital.

So probably there is something like a 99.8-99.9% survival rate. Maybe a little lower but certainly above 99%. And the people at risk generally are known - the elderly, the obese, diabetics, asthmatics, people who are ill.

What is the risk of the vaccine? We really don't know. It's only been out for a year. There are reports that younger boys are at risk of cardiac disease from the virus. Is the risk high or low? We are all part of the experiment to find out.

So it seems to me as a physician and as a person, for every decision you make there is a risk of choosing X and a risk of choosing not-X. And we all choose whatever seems to be the best risk balance for us.

In this case if you are elderly or generally ill, the risk of the virus is substantial and the risk of the vaccine is unknown but probably low. You should get the vaccine.

If you are not elderly - and certainly if you are young and healthy - the risk of the virus is nearly zero. Not zero but close. The risk of the vaccine is unknown. Particularly if you are looking at having kids and you don't know what the vaccine will do to your eggs or to your baby - it seems to me the risk of the virus is near zero and the risk of the vaccine is unknown. It seems to me a rational person would defer the vaccine until we know more.

If you are in the high risk group, it seems that getting the vaccine makes it extremely unlikely you will be admitted to the hospital and die from the virus. So if you want the vaccine get it, and if you don't, don't get it. But don't feel guilty about giving it to someone else. If that someone else chose to get the vaccine they are protected and if they chose not to get the vaccine that risk was their choice.

Seems to me that's the most rational way to look at it.

Keith said...

Also in response to Chuck -

It seems the most current data suggest that people admitted to the hospital and dying are largely not vaccinated and the vaccinated appear well protected from getting sick enough to be admitted to the hospital and dying.

It also seems that the vaccine does not prevent getting infected.

Do we know if the vaccinated spread the virus at the same rate as the non-vaccinated? I haven't looked that up. If the vaccinated spread virus at the same rate, the only reason to get vaccinated is if you think you are at high risk from the virus, higher than the risk from the vaccine. Virus spread would not be a consideration. I don't know the answer.

But if you're worried that you'll kill Grandma because you're not vaccinated, if Grandma is worried, she'll get the vaccine and be protected. If Grandma decides not to get the vaccine that's her decision not yours.

Bunkypotatohead said...

It seems like NYT is preparing us for a future where blacks can rightfully refuse the jab while everyone else will be condemned for doing the same.
Kinda like the use of Nword.

Mike (MJB Wolf) said...

The same people who carefully qualify Kamala’s very public very hesitant and purely political attempt to thread the needle without really being clear will also insist Trump told us to inject bleach, that he insisted COVID was a hoax and that he called nazis “fine people.” Why can’t they just admit Joe and Kam were purposely ambivalent about the vaccine issue when it served their purposes of sowing distrust of Trump. Much of the public pronouncements from”experts” were done for the very same purpose and they rejoiced at their success in convincing much of the public not to trust Trump or the vaccine.

Dude1394 said...

I also have heard a lot about QANON from democrat propaganda. I am a pretty voracious news reader and quite honestly I’ve never heard one quoted, never seen a “mostly peaceful riot” or anything from them to be honest.

I expect it is a fabrication of democrats, to try and blunt their violent Antifa shock troops.

Skippy Tisdale said...

"I've been ridiculing RFKJr even longer than I've been ridiculing Trump."

And has that been productive in any meaningful way?

effinayright said...

typingtalker said...
rcocean wrote, "As for being vaccinated, its never been shown why young people under 25, need to be vaccinated. They either don't get COVID-19 or if they do, they don't die from it. Death from CV-19 comes almost entirely to people over 60, and those with serious co-morditities like morbid obisity or advance diabetes or lung disease."

But when unvaccinated young people under 25 get COVID-19, they give it to others -- often "to people over 60, and those with serious co-morditities like morbid obisity or advance diabetes or lung disease."

Vaccination is not just about keeping the vaccinated healthy -- it is also about keeping the disease from spreading.
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There are NO studies to support that claim. Children, for example, have never been shown to infect Grandma. Or Dad.

In any case, it is not my duty or obligation to protect others who have chosen not to avail themselves of the vaccines.