The defense will try to argue that Mr. Floyd took a fatal amount of fentanyl, but now [the prosecutor, Jerry W.] Blackwell is saying that is not true, that he had built up a tolerance and was not exhibiting signs of overdose. “Mr Floyd had lived with his opioid addiction for years… he was struggling, he was not passing out.”...
The prosecutor is trying to head off arguments from the defense that George Floyd’s size had anything to do with his death — “his size is no excuse,” he said. George Floyd was already more than six feet tall in middle school and he rapped under the name Big Floyd with popular DJs and rappers in Houston.
Mr. Chauvin’s lawyer begins his opening arguments with the notion of “reasonable doubt.” He needs one juror to buy in to the idea that drugs killed Mr. Floyd, not Mr. Chauvin’s knee, to hang the jury and force a mistrial.
Here's a live feed of the trial:
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146 comments:
Prosecution maligning Floyd's character, saying he was such a junkie that 4 times the generally medically accepted 'this is probably lethal' amount of fentanyl in his hood wasnt dangerous because his tolerance was so high.
If Mr. Chauvin cannot be a scapegoat for all the ills of society and an outlet for all of the rage of the People Who Are Perpetually Outraged, then what is the purpose of covering this trial? There's no Pulitzer material in a plain old murder trial.
The elephant in the courtroom is "Convict or the country burns." There's no due process. It's extortion. There's simply no way to get a fair trial in these circumstance.
Here's the evidence I've personally seen going into this trial:
- George Floyd was out of his mind uncontrolled before the "kneeling on his neck" time. He may have started out calm when the police originally connected with him, but he acknowledged being on drugs and then started to act bizarre.
- Floyd had been put in the back of the squad car for his own safety. At that time he started to say he couldn't breathe and calling out to his mama, while no one was even in the car with him.
- He begged to get out of the car and was allowed. He was then put on the ground for his own safety because he was not able to be controlled. He was not roughed up or anything else and police were proactive in calling for health services to come help him.
- Chauvin used a technique he was approved and trained to use in holding down a large person on the ground - a knee to the upper back/neck region which allowed him to control the person and keep his hands free.
- Floyd continued to show he was able to breathe by talking, crying out, etc. while on the ground before succumbing. This is not evidence of choking.
- The M.E.s autopsy showed he did not die of strangulation. A private autopsy indicated "evidence" of asphyxiation but did not declare that he died from such - in other words it gave just enough wording to be played by private lawyers with the media.
- A new police officer involved challenged Chauvin as to whether they should move floyd to the side. Chauvin indicated not. We can speculate as to why.
To me, going into this from the physical evidence (video, ME reports) I've seen, I don't see how they convict. But let's see how this plays out.
He had built up such a tolerance, he couldnt breath, lets go with that
This is a show trial and if, by some miracle, Nelson gets an acquittal, The Biden DOJ will be back with a double jeopardy "civil rights" trial just like the Rodney King case. The Roberts Supreme Court will run and hide from this case.
Sounds like on the pages of NYT the burden of proof will be on the defendant police officer. What a surprise!
This should work well to divert attention from the border.
Injesting a massive amount of fentanyl all at once strikes me as pretty dangerous even for a person who had a high tolerance. Partial positional asphyxia certainly wouldn't help a person's surivival chances in such an overdose situation. But who knows? Unfortunately people are just to passionate to be coldly objective about this case.
Whatever the verdict, there's no death penalty in Minnesota, so the plywood will stay up.
"was not exhibiting signs of overdose"
So he couldn't breathe, before the knee, because . . .? He was agitated because . . .?
So is the prosecution conceding that Floyd's combo of fentanyl and meth would have killed non-addicted, law-abiding humans?
Whatever the verdict, there's no death penalty in Minnesota, so the plywood will stay up.
The death sentence will be sending Chauvin to genpop.
FWIW, early reporting suggested perps saying they can't breath is a thing not necessarily related to fact, but strategery.
Jim Belushi had built up a tolerance too.
Is that what the prosecution is going with?
How many thousands of junkies are “tolerant” until they’re not, particularly as they hit middle age and the risk of heart attack increases dramatically.
I think we'll get a hung jury and then the prosecution quietly kills the case.
I wonder if they'll bring in the bar owner who had employed them.
That would be John Belushi. Jim's still kickin'.
Jim Belushi od'd too?
Holy Shit! MEG had a rational comment!
A year ago, I suffered a bout of atrial fibrillation. An ambulance rushed me to a hospital emergency ward, and a few days later a heart surgeon replaced a valve in my heart.
Based on my own experience, I think that George Floyd suffered a bout of atrial fibrillation, which killed him.
One factor in his case was the fentanyl in his body. Another factor was that he was caught passing counterfeit $20 bills. As soon as he was caught, he realized that he would be imprisoned for the next several years.
That realization caused his heart to fibrillate, which soon caused his inability to breathe.
The police officers extended his life for a few minutes by stopping him from thrashing around. Unfortunately, though, they did not extend his life long enough that the ambulance and hospital could save his life.
Floyd's death did give a lot of Black people an excuse to loot much merchandise from stores. That's what happened similarly in the cases of Trayvon Martin and Michael Brown.
As in the case of Martin and Brown, the trial about the death of Floyd will end likewise in an acquittal.
The jury said O. J. Simpson was innocent....
All of the sense I read on this page may not apply.
He needs one juror to buy in to the idea that drugs killed Mr. Floyd
It's likely that not even one juror will vote to convict.
It's much more likely that all the jurors will vote to acquit.
Well if it's anything like tort the defendant gets the plaintiff as he finds him, or something. The soft-skulled plaintiff.
So all this other stuff wouldn't matter if Chauvin's act was proximate cause.
But that's tort world.
HIs arrest from about 12 months before has been allowed into the court. It shows him putting a pill into his mouth, perhaps to hide the fact that he had it. If he did this with something with Fentynyl in it....?
Mr Floyd had lived with his opioid addiction for years… he was struggling, he was not passing out.”
Oh. He was struggling and not passing out.
It's all just terribly sad. All I can hope hope hope is the two young cops have their charges dropped, and MN gives them even a tenth of what they gave Floyd's family to make up for what they've been put through.
"Blackwell is saying that is not true, that he had built up a tolerance and was not exhibiting signs of overdose."
That is observably wrong, just from Mr. Floyd's actions and words before the knee came down on his neck. There is nothing good about this situation, but he was dying while sitting in the car. He was failing while standing up, when the police first showed up. Of course, his attorney will argue that Mr. Floyd begging the police to help him, that he stated he could not breathe and felt like he was dying while sitting in the back of the car, does not indicate he was having trouble. Nor was his confusion before the police arrived and as they first spoke with him. That may be true.
We'll never know. Does a man get sentenced based on not knowing?
Pretty weird coincidence; George Floyd dies of an overdose at the exact same time his oxygen supply is constricted by force. Similar “coincidence” happened to Eric Garner. The fact that people can argue this with a straight face, is a testament to how far gone from reality and morality some folks are.
The prosecutor is trying to head off arguments from the defense
The prosecutor opened the door to the defense.
Similar “coincidence” happened to Eric Garner.
Eric Garner did not die of a drug overdose. I know you are trying to make a clever point, but you are actually saying something that isn't true.
John, Jim, all you white people look the same.
I have no sympathy for Chauvin. At the very least, when it was obvious the man underneath him was no longer struggling and must have felt lifeless, and when people were telling Chauvin that Floyd was too still, he did not let up. I don't believe it was murder and I don't have any indication it was racist, but at the very least he did not care what affect the thing he was doing had on the man he was doing it to. Maybe reckless endangerment or something like that.
The young cops' lives have been ruined for a political play, for BLM and for Benjamin Crump and whoever it is who pays him to find people to turn into Democrat martyrs.
I watched the body cam footage. Didn't see any signs of hostility toward Mr. Floyd by the cops on account of his race or anything else.
Floyd admitted to the officer on camera that he had been "hooping." He didn't mean playing basketball.
I expect the jury will also see that footage.
OJ got off. But it's one thing to let a man, who deserves prison, go free in the name of racial justice. It's another thing to lock up a man who doesn't deserve it.
He/she/it’s not trying to be clever at all Maybee. Sheesh. Just grotesquely dishonest.
Floyd was worried about much more than one counterfeit $20 bill being used to buy one carton of cigarettes. It's likely that he was in possession of a bunch of counterfeit bills and/or a bunch of recently purchased cartons of cigarettes
He realized that he was being caught using a bunch of counterfeit bills to purchase a bunch of cigarette cartons. He would sell the cartons to buy drugs.
Floyd realized that he was going to prison for the next several years. That realization -- plus the drugs already in his blood -- caused his heart to go into atrial fibrillation.
"He needs one juror to buy in to the idea that drugs killed Mr. Floyd, not Mr. Chauvin’s knee, to hang the jury and force a mistrial."
Lying NYT.
He needs the jurors to understand that there is "reasonable doubt" about whether Mr. Chauvin's knee killed Mr. Floyd, which means that Mr. Chauvin is not guilty of the crime charged.
Which is and has been the law for over 200 years.
the whole series of cases, have made me numb to the whole thing, specially since we know now what the objective of thousand currents was, regardless of the particulars, and the fact that 'ike turner' ellison,* is the procurator in this particular witch hunt, is unsettling,
* he beat his girlfriend, to a bloody pulp, according to photographs and police tapes,
the minnesota supreme court, has a doozy where it makes women, victims,
Also--The judge should have told the jurors repeatedly that "There is no social or political cause in this Courtroom." Amd should repeat it every time it needs to be repeated.
I wrote the following paragraphs in the overnight thread. The murder charges are unsustainable and the only correct verdict is not guilty:
It is a test of the character of the jurors, every single one of them. The correct verdict in this case was a foregone conclusion as soon as the medical examiner's report was released. There is literally no way to overcome reasonable doubt in this case for Chauvin or any of the co-defendents on the murder charges- the prosecution will never be able to prove beyond reasonable doubt that the knee caused the death and that the death wasn't due to the fentenyl in Floyd's circulatory system. This really is open and shut not guilty on the all the murder charges. Even the charges on involuntary manslaughter would be hard to sustain given that the police had already called the paramedics. The only thread you have here that is viable for the prosecution is to argue they showed indifference because they didn't load him up and take him to the hospital themselves, but Floyd had actively resisted getting into the car in the first place.
I still believe there are people of character on that jury that will do their actual duty here- acquit, but there will never be an acquittal- I don't think you could find 12 jurors that pure and rational. A hung jury is the best I am hoping for. You could hope that the judge in the case is letting it go to trial in the hope that the jury will take him off the hook. If the jury hangs or convicts, the judge is going to face a decision- do a directed verdict or let the injustice stand. I have less faith in the judicial system than I do in 12 ordinary Minnesotans.
I couldn't be on that jury. I'm convinced the police officer committed murder.
"Eric Garner did not die of a drug overdose."
Neither did Floyd, according to an independent autopsy. They both died by police murder.
Robert, you are correct- you would be a lousy juror. Now, who paid for that "independent" autopsy?
michael baden, the guy you go to with if you want a predetermined result, thanks for playing cookie,
“- Chauvin used a technique he was approved and trained to use in holding down a large person on the ground - a knee to the upper back/neck region which allowed him to control the person and keep his hands free.”
The question that the prosecution doesn’t want asked is why was he put on his side? Why was this technique utilized by the Minneapolis PD? The answer is that it is used to hold people who have possibly OD’d on narcotics so that they are less likely to aspirate their own vomit. Put him on his back, and he vomits, as is common with narcotic ODs, and he will likely die from aspirating his vomit. The primary purpose for the knee to the neck position is to stabilize possible narcotics ODs on their sides, to prevent aspiration of vomit.
The other thing that the prosecution is going to try to minimize is that the police called an ambulance Code 2, when Floyd was removed from the police car and put him on the ground. Later, when Floyd appeared to be sliding fast, a second call was made, upping the priority of the ambulance to Code 3. By then, it was too late - Floyd appears to have quit breathing and his heart stopped, while the ambulance was stuck in traffic a block or two away.
When Floyd was removed from the police car, placed on the ground, and an ambulance was called, it went from a standard arrest and transport situation, to a medical emergency situation (even though Floyd was still under arrest). By that point, it is likely that Floyd couldn’t have walked off by himself if he had been released.
George Floyd dies of an overdose at the exact same time his oxygen supply is constricted by force.
How do you know his oxygen supply was restricted by Chauvin's knee? Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. It's impossible from the video to tell how much pressure Chauvin was exerting with his knee.
Suppose, for the sake of argument, Chauvin had too great a percentage of his body weight on that knee. Does that prove Chauvin murdered Floyd because he was black? Maybe Chauvin was simply inadequately trained to use the hold he had been taught to use in that circumstance and the death was accidental.
What does the Garner incident tell us about what was in Chauvin's mind? Nothing.
Why don't we have a clear cause of death? If you can't get a clear cause of death, then isn't that an insurmountable instance of reasonable doubt?
As horrible as it appeared to bystanders, IF the police were using an approved method of restraint that does not actually choke off breath or blood flow, then why are we charging the officers with a crime?
My understanding is that the restraint tactic doesn't choke the person, it's designed to pin them down by pressing the shoulder where it meets the neck. Floyd was still talking, breathing, and lifting his head up while being restrained.
I just don't know. I'd seriously give up a good deal of my personal treasure if I could somehow go back in time and have the police make some different choices that would not have appeared to bystanders to harm Floyd.
“Robert, you are correct- you would be a lousy juror. Now, who paid for that "independent" autopsy?”
We know the answer to that - the contingency fee attorneys representing Floyd’s family in their suit against the city.
"I have no sympathy for Chauvin. At the very least, when it was obvious the man underneath him was no longer struggling and must have felt lifeless, and when people were telling Chauvin that Floyd was too still, he did not let up. I don't believe it was murder and I don't have any indication it was racist, but at the very least he did not care what affect the thing he was doing had on the man he was doing it to. Maybe reckless endangerment or something like that."
The murder of George Floyd did not have to be racist; police abuse suspects of all races. I don't think Chauvin intended to kill Floyd, but he was obviously unconcerned with the condition of a suspect he was detaining with excessive force, such that he continued pressing his knee on the neck well after Floyd stopped speaking or moving. Perhaps "involuntary manslaughter" might be the appropriate charge, but Chauvin has prior complaints of misconduct on his record, so he cannot have been unaware that he was responsible to ensure Floyd was not, in fact, undergoing a health crisis. The police are responsible--or should be--to ensure their treatment of non-violent suspects is not potentially lethal. I'm sure Chauvin lost no sleep at all that a man died under his knee.
All I can say is, I'm thankful I'm not on that jury. No matter what the outcome people are going to be angry with you.
"I'm sure Chauvin lost no sleep at all that a man died under his knee."
Like I wrote- at least you have the self-awareness that you would be a lousy juror.
What do you suppose would have happened if they laid Floyd on the ground without any restraint other than the cuffs, and he died anyway? Wouldn't the narrative have simply changed to, blaming all four police officers for putting him on his stomach and letting him die with indifference? Wouldn't we just be where we are now? Still trying all four on the same charges with the exact same societal stakes?
"Now, who paid for that 'independent' autopsy?”
It wasn't just the independent autopsy that found the cause of death was homicide, (as opposed to drug overdose).
https://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2020/06/01/george-floyd-familys-lawyer-independent-autopsy-determines-floyd-died-of-asphyxiation/
"The Hennepin County Medical Examiner’s office says that the manner of death is homicide, and listed as the cause of death cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint and neck compression. Their report also listed other significant conditions, including arteriosclerotic and hypertensive heart disease, fentanyl intoxication and recent use of methamphetamine.
"The county medical examiner added to their report the following: 'Manner of death classification is a statutory function of the medical examiner, as part of death certification for purposes of vital statistics and public health. Manner of death is not a legal determination of culpability or intent, and should not be used to usurp the judicial process. Such decisions are outside the scope of the Medical Examiner’s role or authority.'”
“As horrible as it appeared to bystanders, IF the police were using an approved method of restraint that does not actually choke off breath or blood flow, then why are we charging the officers with a crime? “
Because the black population of Minneapolis was incited by BLM to riot, loot, and burn down their community, and the state Attorney General Keith Ellison, whose office is trying the case, has long been a black Muslim militant. When he was in Congress, he was consistently rated one of its most progressive members. Several years ago, while still there, he introduced a Reparations Bill into Congress. He was, of course, a tort attorney before he was elected to Congress. And, because, of course, Blacks in Minnesota, and in particular Black petty criminal drug addicts there, have no agency.
Maybee said: I have no sympathy for Chauvin. At the very least, when it was obvious the man underneath him was no longer struggling and must have felt lifeless, and when people were telling Chauvin that Floyd was too still, he did not let up. I don't believe it was murder and I don't have any indication it was racist, but at the very least he did not care what affect the thing he was doing had on the man he was doing it to. Maybe reckless endangerment or something like that.}}}}
That's an understandable take on the situation, but none of us knows WHY Chauvin continued to employ the restraint, let alone know that the restraint itself was the cause of death.
Can't you imagine that there might be reasons that you as a police officer would continue that hold? I can. The hold has several purposes, some of which are specifically geared towards helping the person being restrained. Floyd began to show signs of "excited delirium." It's important to stop a person in this state from flailing around, because that can cause death, and this hold was specifically recommended to help keep the excited delirium sufferer still.
I've also personally witnessed, twice, men successfully resisting arrest despite trained police attempting to control them. These men used several tactics against being restrained. Both said during the struggle (several times) that they couldn't breathe and would cooperate if police would just let up. Then, when police let up a bit, they used that chance to break free. Rinse and repeat.
One man, just like Floyd, laid completely still for a very long time. He looked like he might be passed out. Then, when all but one officer had backed off and all was quiet, he threw the remaining officer aside and made a break for it. Both times happened in courtrooms. One man did make it out the door and down the stairs but was caught before getting out of the building. The other man was so strong, it was astounding. He kept throwing off multiple officers, like Hercules. Over and over. I lost count as more officers streamed in and had to pile on.
“ The murder of George Floyd did not have to be racist; police abuse suspects of all races. I don't think Chauvin intended to kill Floyd, but he was obviously unconcerned with the condition of a suspect he was detaining with excessive force, such that he continued pressing his knee on the neck well after Floyd stopped speaking or moving. ”
An ambulance had already been called and was in route at that time.
The murder of George Floyd did not have to be racist; police abuse suspects of all races. I don't think Chauvin intended to kill Floyd, but he was obviously unconcerned with the condition of a suspect he was detaining with excessive force, such that he continued pressing his knee on the neck well after Floyd stopped speaking or moving. Perhaps "involuntary manslaughter" might be the appropriate charge, but Chauvin has prior complaints of misconduct on his record, so he cannot have been unaware that he was responsible to ensure Floyd was not, in fact, undergoing a health crisis. The police are responsible--or should be--to ensure their treatment of non-violent suspects is not potentially lethal.
Robert Cook, I agree with every word of this. I have no idea whether or not he lost sleep, so I don't agree with that one line.
"An ambulance had already been called and was in route at that time."
Why then, did Chauvin keep his knee on Floyd's neck?
“I'm sure Chauvin lost no sleep at all that a man died under his knee.” Robert Cook
You’re sure of that?
"A private autopsy indicated "evidence" of asphyxiation but did not declare that he died from such - in other words it gave just enough wording to be played by private lawyers with the media."
What the lying press and Robert Cook will not tell you is that the "independent" or "private" autopsy report they are so fond of citing was written by a doctor hired by the Floyd family, who did not examine the body. He merely read the official autopsy and rejected its findings.
George Floyd death: the trial
It has yet to be established that this was a homicide, let alone an elective abortion motivated by diversitist bigotry.
That's an understandable take on the situation, but none of us knows WHY Chauvin continued to employ the restraint, let alone know that the restraint itself was the cause of death.
That's true, and hopefully his explanation will come out in his defense.
I'm sure Chauvin lost no sleep at all that a man died under his knee.
Seems pretty unlikely under the circumstances.
The police are responsible--or should be--to ensure their treatment of non-violent suspects is not potentially lethal.
True, but it is entirely possible the officers involved may have believed they were doing everything right.
Was Chauvin's knee the difference between life and death for George Floyd? Is there a reasonable doubt that it was?
And what was in Chauvin's mind with regard to that knee? What evidence do we have that his intent was malicious?
"The Hennepin County Medical Examiner’s office says that the manner of death is homicide...”
Homicide doesn’t mean Murder. It also includes Manslaughter. All that that means is that someone besides the deceased was involved in his death. Murder requires some level of intent. Where are they going to find enough to support either the 2nd or 3rd degree murder charges? Moreover, the Homicide determination was political, with plenty of evidence in the (real) autopsy report to suggest that it wasn’t murder, or maybe even manslaughter.
doctor hired by the Floyd family, who did not examine the body. He merely read the official autopsy and rejected its findings
It sounds like the psychiatric evaluations conducted in absentia, broadcast by CNN to stoke acute phobias and insurrections over more than 16 trimesters.
That's an understandable take on the situation, but none of us knows WHY Chauvin continued to employ the restraint, let alone know that the restraint itself was the cause of death.
Does anyone know the time line here ? There was video and I assume we can determine how many seconds between the time Floyd was struggling and when he stopped.
There is evidence that asphyxiation was NOT the cause of death.
"I'm sure Chauvin lost no sleep at all that a man died under his knee."
Whenever someone pretends to have the magical power to read the mind and tap into the conscience of someone they do not know, you can automatically dismiss everything they have to say as childish gibberish. And I mean everything they have say.
I'm sure that deep within the motivation of Robert Cook to give his opinion at Althouse is his inability to get a good night's sleep until he has clear-cut all the ancient redwood forests. I'm absolutely sure, no doubt about what is going on in his mind on his sleepless nights. All insomniacs desire the destruction of our last few acres of pristine forest.
But, you should dismiss this because I pretend to know what's in the mind of Mr. Cook.
I think it is nice of Cook to identify himself as a member of a lynch mob.
Everything you posted in that comment, Robert, is the very definition of reasonable doubt, even from the autopsies paid for by the Floyd family's attorneys. None of the autopsies say, this is what killed Floyd, only that these are factors that we found. Additionally, the county examiner found no physical evidence of actual neck compression. As another commenter above noted, you can't even prove how much force, if any, was actually being applied by the knee, nor at what points it might have changed.
Even worse, the restraint is what Chauvin was trained to use by his own department in such situations. As I noted in the hypothetical, if Floyd had died during the arrest without the neck restraint, we would still be where we are today because the state autopsy would have still been the same given the lack of physical evidence- the drugs would have still been in his system at those levels, and he still would have been in prior poor cardiovacular health. Finally, the prosecutor in his opening statement has already conceded that Floyd was a long time user of exactly those drugs, whose long term use effects include sudden cardiac arrest.
It wasn’t really the Floyd family who hired the “independent” pathologist, forensic pathologist Dr. Michael Baden, but well known race baiting, ambulance chasing, attorney Ben Crump, in their name. Where have we seen Crump hiring Baden before? My memory is that both were involved in the civilian case by Trayvon Martin’s family against George Zimmerman’s HOA.
I wish people weren't always so absolute in their proclamations one way or the other. I think absolutism in gneral has become a very real problem in our civil discourse. I get why people always want to be on the morally right side, but why is there this need to condem and demonize anyone who might not see things the same way? Why do we always have categorize anyone who disagrees with us as an enemy, especially in a complex situation with lots of variables and incomplete information? Is it still OK to be wrong?
He needs one juror to buy in to the idea that drugs killed Mr. Floyd
A better journalist would not use the expression buy in to the idea in this context.
A better journalist would have written:
He needs one juror to find that drugs killed Mr. Floyd
... or ...
He needs one juror to become convinced by the evidence that drugs killed Mr. Floyd
A better journalist would have written:
He needs one juror to feel reasonable doubt that Mr. Floyd was murdered
... or ...
He needs one juror to decide that the accusation was not proved beyond a reasonable doubt
Cook said ... "The police are responsible--or should be--to ensure their treatment of non-violent suspects is not potentially lethal."
Now do Ashli Babbitt
I do not buy into the idea that The New York Times is reporting this story well.
"I have no sympathy for Chauvin."
I have mixed feelings about Chauvin. His demeanor says, "Bully!" to me. He has a long list of complaints about his handling of some suspects. I speculated last year the MPD didn't have enough to fire him, but they crossed their fingers he would retire before a real disaster struck. If so, they lost their bet.
Still, it is not proof he killed anybody, much less "murdered" George Floyd. Floyd was the perfect "damned if you do, damned if you don't" suspect for the four officers.
it would be nice, but since it was decided chauvin was guilty from word one, that's not gonna happen, now consider the case of the youts who carjacked mohammed anwar, an accident according to cnn,
Bruce Hayden- yes, I would really love the full Benjamin Crump story. Why do his stories get so much gullible attention, and why do riots and Democrat politicians follow him into whatever rabbit hole he goes down?
Jacob Blake was another client. Jacob Blake, an unarmed black man who showed up to stop a fight and got shot by the cops.
I read the prosecution's opening and heard the defenses. The prosecution is hammering the emotional drama of the 9 minute video. The defense is talking about the whole event, the angry crowd, Floyd slamming himself around the back of the police car and Floyd's ingestion of multiple speedball (fentanyl and meth) pills that looked like Percocets and the autopsy findings that showed Floyd's health was very poor.
One side is hammering the table while the other is hammering the facts and the law...
In order to convict Chauvin, all the jurors will have to buy in to the idea that he murdered Floyd.
When I first saw the video, I was pretty outraged at Chavin. I don't know how to find it, but I believe I even came here and expressed it strongly.
Since then, I have seen the rest of the video and got much more information. If I only saw the first video everyone has seen, I think I would get this case completely wrong, and convict an innocent man. That first video is pretty much where a lot of people stopped both thinking and asking questions.
"I'm sure Chauvin lost no sleep at all that a man died under his knee."
Stop being an asshole. Neither of us have any idea of how he feels, and there is no legitimate reason to speculate.
I hit a pedestrian with my car once. It actually was her fault (she literally ran in front of my car) and she wasn't hurt, but after the shock wore off I had the shakes for the rest of the day.
In order to release his knee from Floyd's neck, police officer Chauvin would have had to buy in to the idea that Floyd would not cause harm to himself or to others.
"Is it still OK to be wrong?"
We can't be sure unless we know what race, sex, and political affiliation you are first. Then it gets really easy.
Robert Cook said, "The police are responsible--or should be--to ensure their treatment of non-violent suspects is not potentially lethal."
Seems to me any interaction between police and suspects is potentially lethal, so Cook's standard strikes me as pie-in-the-sky. How can the police "ensure" any outcome? Non-violent suspects sometimes become violent ones. I don't know the legal standard, but I suspect "reasonable force" is in there somewhere.
When Officer Lane approached Floyd in the SUV, he found a huge, agitated man who refused to show his hands. That's a pretty good indication you have a tiger by the tail. The police seemed pretty restrained under the circumstances, but it just went downhill from there.
George Floyd spent his life rolling his life up into one gigantic ball of shit, and now Chauvin will be crushed under that immense weight.....Perhaps they will prove that Chauvin did something wrong in his restraint of Floyd, but Floyd spent a good portion of his life in need of outside restraint and something bad was bound to happen to him. Chauvin was Floyd adjacent. Anyone who was Floyd adjacent had a tough life.....The air is thick with hypocrisy and sanctimony. It's a fair bet that many of Floyd's intimates were neither surprised nor inconsolable when they heard of his death, but now their lamentations are the loudest. They do not show the muted grief that Mary Jo Kopechne's relatives showed when their daughter could not breathe because of the malfeasance of a government employee.
In order for no stores to have been looted, all the local Blacks would have had to buy in to the idea that looting is morally wrong.
"He merely read the official autopsy and rejected its findings."
Which, of course, was the purpose he was hired, and the finding he was going to come up with no matter what the evidence. I'm sure they expected an even more damning report from him, but the evidence made that impossible to pull off and defend. To have an autopsy designed to find Chavin guilty, but then come up short is pretty good evidence for reasonable doubt.
In order to sell the carton of cigarettes to Floyd, the store's cashier had to buy in to the idea that Floyd's $20 bill was not counterfeit.
In order to give $27 million to Floyd's family before the trial, the City Council had to buy in to the idea that money grows on trees.
would have had to buy in to the idea that looting is morally wrong.
A civil rights violation.
Legitimate question to the lawyers here present: I've read that George Floyd held up a woman an gunpoint. Can that woman sue the estate of George Floyd for the intentional infliction of emotional harm or whatever? George Floyd left a number of victims in his career. Can those victims share in the 27 million dollar prize money?
'it'll be fine'
https://legalinsurrection.com/2021/03/washington-dc-two-teenage-girls-charged-with-murder-in-carjacking-death-of-pakistani-uber-eats-driver/
I would like to see Chauvin exonerated, partly because I would like to see every blue city in the United States burned to the ground, starting with places like Minneapolis and Madison, and definitely including New York.
"He took a massive overdose of drugs but that didn't kill him" is not exactly how I would want to start a case. It is an admission that the case is already lost on its merits and they are going to try for the prosecutor equivalent of jury nullification.
The violent episode started in the police car when Floyd was alone, prompting his removal but persistent state of nervous agitation. In the absence of physical trauma, the combination of stress, comorbidities, and ingested drugs were the probable cause of death.
Blackwell is saying that is not true, that he had built up a tolerance and was not exhibiting signs of overdose.
I very much doubt Blackwell will us this as an avenue of prosecution. Medical testimony will obliterate this idiocy. "Tolerance", is tolerance of its intoxicating effects. Not the drugs physiological effects. Tolerance of alcohol does not mean your liver is no longer affected, it means you need more alcohol to catch the buzz you're chasing. Tolerance is a contributing factor to overdose, not mitigating. You keep upping your dose. When is it too much. Like lots of things, it happens very slowly, then all of a sudden.
To be fair, narciso, he looked like a WHITE middle Easterner..so....
Tolerance is called tachyphylaxis and means the receptors to the narcotic proliferate, or become less sensitive. It is the common cause of death when an addict is released from prison and goes back to his/her old dose before tolerance wore off. I have suspected that Floyd swallowed a baggie of drugs when apprehended. Happens to mules sometimes.
Blogger Big Mike said...
I would like to see Chauvin exonerated, partly because I would like to see every blue city in the United States burned to the ground, starting with places like Minneapolis and Madison, and definitely including New York.
I'd go for that. Tucson is 1500 feet below us and I doubt the mob would have the energy to climb.
William:
I suspect that the statue of limitations has run on many civil claims against George Floyd. But I sure would like to see how that $27m was divided up. I doubt he had a will. He was unmarried but had children and other relatives.
Floyd had four siblings and five children, including two daughters (aged 6 and 22 at the time of his death) and an adult son. He also had two grandchildren.
"Floyd had been put in the back of the squad car for his own safety. At that time he started to say he couldn't breathe and calling out to his mama, while no one was even in the car with him."
I saw a video of Floyd when he was still in his vehicle, and he was saying "I can't breathe."
Back in college, we figured out that it took more beer to get us drunk. We did develop a certain tolerance to alcohol.
But a tolerance to drugs?
washington-dc-two-teenage-girls-charged-with-murder-in-carjacking-death-of-pakistani-uber-eats-driver
13 and 15.
he looked like a WHITE middle Easterner..so....
Maybe Caucasian, but not white... or rather, not white-white. Certainly not a People... Person of White.
If the deceased took a fatal overdose of drugs and/or had a natural medical event that would have ended in death regardless is NOT automatically exculpatory.
It is not a defense that a person would have died anyway. If the defendant's actions caused the deceased to die even a couple of seconds earlier than he otherwise would, then it is homicide.
A guy jumps off a 50 story building in order to kill himself. Someone who hates him shoots him on the way down and he is dead before he hits the grounds and his body bursts open. That is homicide.
An exclusive defense focus on cause of death is a mistake if you ask me. The stronger defense is that the officer merely followed longstanding departmental policy. The city's admission of liability from its settlement of the lawsuit might backfire on them in that regard.
Fentinyol is what they give you to knock you out for surgery. Without a resperator- you die. I guess that's the point of using drugs like that. the full knock out.
Yeah - the knee didn't help - but this guy in many ways, killed himself.
Floyd had four siblings and five children, including two daughters (aged 6 and 22 at the time of his death) and an adult son. He also had two grandchildren.
If he had been providing a better example for them, he would probably still be alive.
is tolerance of its intoxicating effects. Not the drugs physiological effects
Yes, an illusion of social equity (among cells), with a progressive toxicity (in the body). The circumstantial anxiety tipped the balance forcing a progressive path and grade. The moral of the story: don't do drugs and engage in redistributive change.
If he had been providing a better example for them, he would probably still be alive.
He would either be working or at home dog-tired, while the single mothers of his diverse children would be caring for their household and welfare.
Can social progressives and liberals abort the baby, cannibalize her profitable parts, sequester her carbon pollutants, and have her, too?
Mark at 3:23 PM
If the defendant's actions caused the deceased to die even a couple of seconds earlier than he otherwise would, then it is homicide.
By preventing Floyd from thrashing around, Chavin extended Floyd's life.
"But a tolerance to drugs?"
What is the question? Of course you can build up a tolerance to drugs.
By preventing Floyd from thrashing around, Chavin extended Floyd's life.
Perhaps the evidence at trial will show that. Perhaps it won't.
That's what the trial is for. And verdicts should be based on the evidence.
I would like to see Chauvin exonerated, partly because I would like to see every blue city in the United States burned to the ground, starting with places like Minneapolis and Madison, and definitely including New York.
Yep. Add Seattle, Olympia and Portland to a long list.
And if they decide to get froggy outside the city core? Well, we didn't spend the last year preparing for nothing.
Wild chicken
I want to learn the evidence on this point. Floyd had something like 2-3x fatal dose of drugs in his blood at the time of his death. He also had other health issues.
Wild chicken:
And Floyd's lungs were full of fluid. You can't build up a tolerance to that.
"It's much more likely that all the jurors will vote to acquit."
Not if their identities become public knowledge.
There is reasonable doubt of Chauvin’s guilt. In fact, no actual evidence of it. Regardless, there is one true thing I can say about the whole kerfluffle. The world is a better place without George Floyd in it. There are lots of people I feel that way about. One former coworker committed suicide. Another died of liver cancer and diabetes complications before his 60th birthday. I shed no tears for either of them.
I have no problem with Chauvin having some guilt here. I think his procedure was poor and in some way contributed to Floyd's early demise. What is really interesting is the connection Chauvin and Floyd had. That connection would need to be emphasized to bring me from manslaughter to murder. Otherwise, I don't buy that Chavin had premeditation to murder Floyd. A drug overdose would certainly provide reasonable doubt for either manslaughter or homicide, but to the extent this is true, "If the defendant's actions caused the deceased to die even a couple of seconds earlier than he otherwise would, then it is homicide." but only manslaughter in my book unless you can prove intent.
As for the comments about Chauvin exoneration and the toll it would bring; I don't necessarily share in "liking" it, but I would put the blame on it occurring on those that elevated Floyd's death to be a symbol of something more than a dangerous drug addict mishandled by poor police procedure.
A few years ago in Houston, an innocent black girl was killed by a bullet shot into her mother's care traveling on a freeway. A witness claimed a white man in a truck did the shooting, and this caused racial tension along with death threats when the man in the truck was later identified. However, the real killer was a black gang member who mistook the woman's car as a person he was sent to execute. When the real killer was identified, the race hustlers calling for death threats suddenly no longer cared about the murder of a young black girl just riding in a car. Jazmine Barnes should be the poster child for a movement, and she was when the narrative was white on black murder, but then she wasn't when the real threat was revealed.
By the way, the innocent white man was arrested on an unrelated robbery charge and later found hanging dead in his jail cell 6 months later. Two weeks before the white man's body was found, one of the gang bangers arrested for Barnes death was released on $150,000 bail while awaiting his capital murder trial. I can agree the criminal justice system is unjust.
Bernell Trammell, Black Milwaukee shop owner known for pro-Trump signage, was murdered on the street and case has all but disappeared.
would have had to buy in to the idea
Re-education camp awaits you!!
What is the question? Of course you can build up a tolerance to drugs.
Narcotics. Not much tolerance to digitalis or strychnine.
I am asking because I don't know. Does tolerance to drugs actually increase the amount of drugs you can take before you overdose? My understanding was tolerance impacted the effect of the drugs; over time more and more of the drug is required to get the same high. This will eventually lead to overdose as the user will eventually take enough drugs to be fatal. Also, taking lots of drugs is not good for the health either, so I would think if anything that tolerance would make the user more likely to die, not less.
Again, I don't know so I ask.
Regardless of the verdict, Minneapolis will burn. Again.
"But a tolerance to drugs?"
Yes. Sometime junkies who have gone on the wagon for a period of time and then relapse will overdose and die by accident because they take doses equal to what they were taking when they last used, but they no longer have the same level of tolerance for the drug.
I'm not much of a drinker, especially not of hard liquor, but I can recall periods of my life where I did more social drinking than at other times, and I can well remember how much more one drink (of even beer) would affect me if I had not had any alcohol for a period of time, as compared with when I had been having drinks on a semi-regular basis (say a few times a month, rather than once or twice in a year).
Jazmine Barnes should be the poster child for a movement, and she was when the narrative was white on black murder, but then she wasn't when the real threat was revealed.
No one in Atlanta seems to much care about little Secoreia Turner, either. And as far as I can tell no one besides the young son she left behind gives a single God damn about Jessica Doty Whitaker.
“Floyd had four siblings and five children, including two daughters (aged 6 and 22 at the time of his death) and an adult son. He also had two grandchildren.”
Which probably mans splitting his estate five ways, unless he had more kids, who predeceased him, and they had living descendants. This presupposes that he died intestate, he was unmarried at the time, and MN estate laws are similar to other states. Baby mothers may be able to control what their minor children inherit, as trustees.
Just rough arithmetic, but that probably means that Crumb, the attorney gets maybe $7 million (less what he has to pay the other lawyers, and his hired gun pathologist), and the five kids maybe $4 million each.
Whatever happens the city will burn.
Do a good job this time...there should be nothing left standing.
This has nothing to do with George Floyd. Democrats were staring down the possibility in 2020 that they would be thrown onto the ash heap of history.
Obama had encouraged the seeding of BLM chapters throughout the US. BLM was told to stand by. There would be a trigger in 2020. Don't know when, don't know where. In America there's always a trigger. Stand by.
George Floyd. The Robert Creamers of the DNC said...Floyd could work. Give the GO signal. Democrat Cities were looted and burned.
Trump warned that if Democrats won in November, America's cities would burn.
Uhhh...Donald, you're the President NOW and America's cities are burning.
While Republicans focus on Governance, Democrats focus on Power.
While Republicans focus on Governance
Revitalization. Rehabilitation. Reconciliation.
Democrats focus on Power... Whatever happens the city will burn.
Reduce. Reuse. Recycle.
“If the deceased took a fatal overdose of drugs and/or had a natural medical event that would have ended in death regardless is NOT automatically exculpatory.”
“It is not a defense that a person would have died anyway. If the defendant's actions caused the deceased to die even a couple of seconds earlier than he otherwise would, then it is homicide.”
“A guy jumps off a 50 story building in order to kill himself. Someone who hates him shoots him on the way down and he is dead before he hits the grounds and his body bursts open. That is homicide.”
That’s not what is going on here. The actual autopsy didn’t show bruising or other indications that Floyd was strangled. The actual prosecution is going to have to pretty much claim that it was the interaction between the fentanyl in his system, combined with an otherwise non lethal use of that neck hold, that caused his death. Plus, possibly that COVID-19 had weakened his legs enough for this to be fatal. Otherwise, they are going to face proving the strangulation part of the OR decision, beyond a reasonable doubt, despite no neck bruising and a very possibly lethal dose of fentanyl in his system. The prosecution needs the AND (combination) theory to overcome their problems with the forensic evidence running against them.
“An exclusive defense focus on cause of death is a mistake if you ask me. The stronger defense is that the officer merely followed longstanding departmental policy. The city's admission of liability from its settlement of the lawsuit might backfire on them in that regard.”
I would agree there. Focusing, at least in part, on departmental policy goes to intent, and should, in a perfect world, mean that conviction for 2nd or 3rd degree murder was impossible, and intentional manslaughter was highly unlikely. But criminal defense need not be tied to one exclusive theory. It is perfectly legitimate to argue that Floyd killed himself with a fentanyl OD, and even if he didn’t, the police on the scene were only following procedure, and thus lack the required scienter (intent) for murder.
Something else, esp for the physicians here. There appears to have been some foaming at the mouth before Floyd was taken into custody. That would suggest fluid in his lungs. And, indeed, the (real) autopsy found significant fluids in his lungs. You get enough fluid in your lungs, and, surprise, surprise, you have problems breathing. Or, at least that was my experience - I have had HAPE (high altitude pulmonary edema several times, as well as pneumonia several times).
Regardless of the verdict, Minneapolis will burn. Again.
Diveristy [dogma] is a not so novel conception of social contagion.
Leland - excellent post.
Robert Cook said...
"But a tolerance to drugs?"
"Yes. Sometime junkies who have gone on the wagon for a period of time and then relapse will overdose and die by accident because they take doses equal to what they were taking when they last used, but they no longer have the same level of tolerance for the drug."
That may be true of heroin, Robert, but some drugs you never get a tolerance for. It will always take a set amount to get high.
Yancey - the prosecution will never be able to prove beyond reasonable doubt that the knee caused the death.
This misses the point. An already subdued man had his neck kneeled upon. Usually, when Policemen subdue a man, they call up a girl in Police costume to kneel on the man's neck, for the extra humiliation. No Police girls were present, so Chauvin had to do it himself.
***
A story: There once was a man who owned a Plant Nursery in Eastern Washington State. His Nursery was frequently robbed. I have no idea why. Maybe they had avocadoes, I don't know. Stealing avocadoes is a thing, because Progressives like avocado toast or something.
One night, a car pulled up at the Plant Nursery. The owner, whose house was on site, and was bone tired of being robbed, grabbed his handgun to confront the threat to all he had worked for.
Bone tired.
The owner approached the vehicle. Turned out it was a Cop in an unmarked car. The Cop exited his vehicle and showed his badge. The owner re-holstered his weapon, because he thought the Cop was a good guy.
The Cop ordered the owner to get on the ground, and put his face in the dirt.
The owner was 68 yrs old. A citizen of a bygone era. A young man with a badge, was telling him to put his face in the dirt.
The old man recognized an enemy. He redrew his weapon. The 'Cop' had the drop on him. Shot him where he stood.
We don't die in the Country we were born into.
Lesson? Althousians...respond to this post. Was the man right or wrong? Identify yourself if you are a mask wearer.
If he is not convicted of first degree but a lesser charge stay inside for a while if you live in any city.
Something else, esp for the physicians here. There appears to have been some foaming at the mouth before Floyd was taken into custody. That would suggest fluid in his lungs. And, indeed, the (real) autopsy found significant fluids in his lungs. You get enough fluid in your lungs, and, surprise, surprise, you have problems breathing. Or, at least that was my experience - I have had HAPE (high altitude pulmonary edema several times, as well as pneumonia several times).
The vernacular term is "drowning." I know a guy who spends part of the year practicing in Texas and the rest of the year working in an ER in Colorado. He says he sees a lot of guys who go to CO hunting and get HAPE. The only thing that works is to get them back to sea level. FAST.
You could make the case that China killed George Floyd, with fentanyl and Covid.
I am asking because I don't know. Does tolerance to drugs actually increase the amount of drugs you can take before you overdose? My understanding was tolerance impacted the effect of the drugs; over time more and more of the drug is required to get the same high.
As I posted above, it is also called "tachyphylaxis," which applies to drugs other than narcotics. The tolerance requires a higher and higher dose to get the same effect. The addict tolerates a fatal dose of narcotics but only if the routine use is not interrupted. The usual situation is prison, in which the drug is not available and a return to the lethal dose level.
The physician that testifies taking 4 times the dose that would kill a person not addicted to drugs will not kill an addict is asking for a lawsuit from the family of someone who overdoses.
I think enough FACTS of the case are on Chauvin's side. And there's no way he way he walks out of that courtroom with a not-guilty verdict. Jury will more likely consider social IMPACT than social JUSTICE. They know letting him walk makes last summer look like the JV.
The spineless Hennepin County medical examiner sealed Chauvin's fate when he added "homicide" to his report, five days after his preliminary report listed no sign of asphyxiation or strangulation. Only after the city burned for five days did he add "homicide".
Spoiler alert!
The video is titled "George Floyd Killing: The Trial", so apparently the fine folks at Sky News already know how it's going to turn out.
I found a June, 2020 article at Medium.com informative and interesting:
"Why Derek Chauvin May Get Off His Murder Charge" by Gavrilo David
I don't want to post a link but a search will turn up the article.
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