"... but only up to a point. Posts about hate groups and extremist content, it said, are allowed only if the posts clearly condemn or neutrally discuss them, because the risk for real-world harm is otherwise too great.... In 2019 and 2020, Facebook often dealt with far-right misinformation sites that used 'satire' claims to protect their presence on the platform.... For example, The Babylon Bee, a right-leaning site, frequently trafficked in misinformation under the guise of satire. 'At a point, I suspect Facebook got tired of this dance and adopted a more aggressive posture'.... 'Removing someone from social media can end their career these days, so you need a process that distinguishes incitement of violence from a satire of these very groups doing the incitement'.... 'You just wake up and find you’re in danger of being shut down because white nationalists were triggered by your comic'...."
The headline is misleading as you should be able to tell if you read my excerpt carefully. It won't work for Facebook that has a rule against right-wing satire but allows left-wing satire.
The quote "At a point, I suspect Facebook got tired of this dance and adopted a more aggressive posture" is from Emerson T. Brooking, "a resident fellow for the Atlantic Council who studies digital platforms." He's guessing that Facebook stopped accepting satire as a cover for disinformation and incitement. That worked against The Babylon Bee, as intended. Then, it had to apply the same rule to left-wing satirists. It's not that Facebook "didn't recognize irony." The "trouble dealing with satire" wasn't that it was humor-deaf and couldn't distinguish satire from serious things. It was that satire worked too well as an excuse to justify publishing things Facebook wanted to exclude.
What kind of left-wing material got swept up in Facebook's censorship? The NYT describes a cartoon by "left-leaning cartoonist" Matt Bors. Titled “Boys Will Be Boys,” it "depicted a recruitment where new Proud Boys were trained to be 'stabby guys' and to 'yell slurs at teenagers' while playing video games." I don't think the Times has a link to it, but I found it easily: here. And you can read more of Bors's cartoons here. I read his newest cartoon, and it begins with a false statement: "Minimum wage has been stuck at $7.25 for 45 years." But the minimum wage has only been $7.25 since 2009. In 1976, the minimum wage was $2.30. Yes, but the cartoon is set in the future. Get it?!
Posts
72 comments:
Why does anyone have any 'social media' account?
Remember, you are the product and they are getting rich off your ass.
I'm going to estimate that clueless woke scolds outnumber genuine white nationalists by about 10,000 to 1 in America.
I agree with Facebook, much of what I read there was false and misleading information. You know, a lot like the NYT and WaPo.
NYT link = about:invalid#zSoyz
Correct URL:
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/19/technology/political-cartoonists-facebook-satire-irony.html
Why is anyone on Facebook?
Twatter?
garbage sites for garbage people.
It's a fools errand to try to determine what is truly misinformation couched in satire. Practically by definition satire is an exaggeration of reality. So all satire is "misinformation", at least in part. How stupid are these people?
I keep wondering how a bunch of twenty-somethings can set themselves up as arbiters of The Truth, about EVERYTHING.
We no longer need scientists, philosophers, or academic specialists....: we've got the Facebook TRUTH SQUAD! Many are summa cum laude graduates of the Wikipedia Upstairs Truth Emporium!
Snort
"In 2019 and 2020, Facebook often dealt with far-right misinformation sites that used 'satire' claims to protect their presence on the platform.... For example, The Babylon Bee, a right-leaning site, frequently trafficked in misinformation under the guise of satire."
Just think how many of American youth were politically influenced by all the misinformation in Mad Magazine.
Oh the humanity.
Humor is transgressive. Control freaks have a hard time with that.
Satire is only funny when you can otherwise speak the truth. It's now passive-aggressive, wink-wink, I'm-only-kidding bullshit.
"Misinformation under the guise of satire" = a First Amendment License to Kill
"Why does anyone have any 'social media' account?"
I can't speak for others, but I have one and belong to a group who posts pictures of our dogs. I enjoy it, and find it a nice break from all the crap going on in the world these days. YMMV, of course.
It makes you wonder how human civilization has lasted for thousands of years before we had our beneficent social media overlords determining for us what is true and what is "misinformation". I mean, when I think of all the years we had these people who were speaking all sorts of untruths and spreading misinformation unchecked without some twentysomething liberal arts major correcting them or silencing them... it terrifies me.
wholelottasplainin' said..."I keep wondering how a bunch of twenty-somethings can set themselves up as arbiters of The Truth, about EVERYTHING.
We no longer need scientists, philosophers, or academic specialists."
To be fair, a big part of the problem is that the scientists, philosophers, and academic specialists haven't exactly been doing that great of a job, at least as a group. The old cliché about nature abhorring a vacuum would seem to apply.
"the risk for real-world harm is otherwise too great"
I guess they don't apply their own rules to themselves.
"Facebook often dealt with far-right misinformation sites that used 'satire' claims to protect their presence on the platform.... For example, The Babylon Bee, a right-leaning site, frequently trafficked in misinformation under the guise of satire."
They "trafficked" in misinformation! "Under the guise"! Bad, bad Bee! Out!
In a way, it is good that our prog overlords don't even pretend anymore.
"It won't work for Facebook that has a rule against right-wing satire but allows left-wing satire."
Facebook can do anything it wants. And it pretty much does.
I am confused. Facebook doesn't have any rules that make any sense. They are a cover for suppression of views that a bunch of "woke" kids find uncongenial.
Is there anything more to say?
Oops! Moderation on?
"In 2019 and 2020, Facebook often dealt with far-right misinformation sites that used 'satire' claims to protect their presence on the platform.... For example, The Babylon Bee, a right-leaning site, frequently trafficked in misinformation under the guise of satire."
Translated: The Bee was *too effective* so it had to go; in order to LOOK "neutral" they took off some pathetic lefty "satire" accounts.
"In 2019 and 2020, Facebook often dealt with far-right misinformation sites that used 'satire' claims to protect their presence on the platform.... For example, The Babylon Bee, a right-leaning site, frequently trafficked in misinformation under the guise of satire."
Translated: The Bee was *too effective* so it had to go; in order to LOOK "neutral" they took off some pathetic lefty "satire" accounts.
For example, The Babylon Bee, a right-leaning site, frequently trafficked in misinformation under the guise of satire.
What, exactly, is the difference between "satire" and "misinformation"?
When SNL puts on a skit with a phony Trump saying racist, misogynist things, is that satire or misinformation?
If the difference is intent, is the intent in the mind of the producer of the information or in the mind of a person who consumes it? At what point in time does it become misinformation?
Th BB people talked a bit about this in a podcast a few weeks. One of the producers there opined that various left-wing "fact check" sites claiming that the BB's stories were misinformation were doing this with the intent of "gaming the system," so that FB would restrict the ability of FB users to link & share BB stories.
Look up the bio's of Zuckerbeg, Bezos, and Dorsey.
Is there anything in their bio's that suggests that they know how best to judge which speech Americans should be allowed to utter or hear?
“The Babylon Bee, a right-leaning site, frequently trafficked in misinformation under the guise of satire.”
Of course it was, and is, satire. It’s often hilarious, which is why I religiously check out their postings every couple days. What was really hilarious was all the leftists (fake) truth checking the Bee. Everyone knows that it is a satire site, and what they do is satire. They exaggerate. They pretend. But I can’t remember a single article there that was 100% accurate.
The NYT should claim they're satire so they don't have to bother issuing "corrections" anymore.
IG, Tw, FB offer invisible chaperones for the TriggerGen.
Prof. Althouse's vendetta against the Babylon Bee continues, and, like so many liberal women, she is perfectly happy with the idea that anything she doesn't happen to find funny isn't worthy of free speech protection.
“It makes you wonder how human civilization has lasted for thousands of years before we had our beneficent social media overlords determining for us what is true and what is "misinformation". I mean, when I think of all the years we had these people who were speaking all sorts of untruths and spreading misinformation unchecked without some twentysomething liberal arts major correcting them or silencing them... it terrifies me.”
It should. It’s 1984, and NewSpeak. After 5 years now of the left attacking Trump, we know that this is all about enforcing the narrative. FB, Twitter, etc have taken it upon themselves to determine what is true and what is false, and that means what is politically correct wokeness, and what is not. They routinely ignore the blatant falseness of leftist narratives, while suppressing right wing speaking truth to power as false.
I have only had two times where there was any response from a site for something I posted. One was an inquiry the second an outright ban.
Facebook got salty with me in February over a meme I posted in November (to a personal page and where most of my FB friends could see it (custom setting)). It was a photo of Jeffrey Dahmer saying that no one can tell him how many people to have for Thanksgiving. I wrote to FB and told them that it was a joke and I am 100% anti cannibalism. I have not heard back. The ban was only from creating ads (which I don't do) or live streaming (also not a thing I do).
The only place I've actually been banned from commenting is Powerline. I made a comment on a post about teachers cancelling Shakespeare that had this quote in it, "Elizabeth Nelson, who teaches English at Twin Cities Academy in St. Paul, Minnesota, told School Library Journal she gives her students Marxist theory when reading Shakespeare’s tragedy “Coriolanus” about the Roman leader."
My banned comment was, "I don't want Marxist theory with my Shakespeare, I want someone to point out all the dick jokes (and other bawdy humor) that I'm missing because of changes in slang and word pronunciation." Unfortunately my comment was seen as too vulgar. It was weird discussing an author who wrote a lot of vulgar humor and not being able to say "dick".
TL;DR - I may be vulgar (although considerably less so than Shakespeare) but at least I'm not a cannibal.
"Prof. Althouse's vendetta against the Babylon Bee continues, and, like so many liberal women, she is perfectly happy with the idea that anything she doesn't happen to find funny isn't worthy of free speech protection."
That's not an accurate interpretation of this post.
If you think the text justifies your interpretation, spell out why. Otherwise, take back your statement.
How do you both "moderate political speech" and support a policy that allows "clear condemnation" of certain views. The latter seems rather extreme to me.
Then again, this was Facebook just 5 years ago:
Facebook censors images of Prophet Mohammed
The decision comes weeks after Chief Executive Mark Zuckerberg gave his support to freedom of speech proclaiming "Je Suis Charlie"
This post is not pro-censorship.
This post is observing that Facebook's effort at censorship is complicated by its need to appear nonpartisan and that's catching some lefties and the NYT is trying to push back.
wholelottasplainin' said...
I keep wondering how a bunch of twenty-somethings can set themselves up as arbiters of The Truth, about EVERYTHING.
Why? It's exactly what a bunch of twenty-somethings with no life experience would do.
Satire does work to get ideas out there, because the reader reverse-engineers what is the actual thing that it is based on.
No censorship regime will publish the "do's and don'ts" of censorship unless it includes a catch-all "anything we want to censor" clause because otherwise people will game the system. In some Banana Republic, the newspaper decided to just leave blank the parts of the newspaper that would have contained the offending article, until this, too -- publishing literally nothing -- was censored.
The Bee doesn't publish misinformation disguised as satire. Their stuff is clearly satire.
Was the world always so full of brazen liars? It seems positively infested with them now.
That's a really funny story, Mary Beth. About the English teacher, Shakespeare, and Powerline. What a combination.
It’s quaint people think Facebook employs millions of people to review billions of user posts each day, but 99.99999 percent of the moderation is performed by algorithms. Satires stings, and when people are stung they click the little button that says “I’m concerned about this post.” Enough clicks of this button per total views and the post is hidden.
The first and second victims of progress are competing progressives, who cannot be trusted, in their mad dash for minority capital and control. Planned Parent/hood schemes reduce the field, and other men and women, boys and girls, are merely collateral damage in a war for social justice.
Humor is transgressive.
Yes, a state or process of divergence from normal, and it is that contrast that wokes... evokes laughter in some people.
"At a point, I suspect Facebook got tired of this dance and adopted a more aggressive posture"
No, more like they realized that if they kept it one sided they'd lose a huge chunk of users to other social media sites. Of course, if they stopped censoring that one side they'd lose another huge chunk of users on the opposite side. So the only thing to do was start censoring both sides.
Rush (the band) talked about such a situation years ago:
There is unrest in the forest
There is trouble with the trees
For the maples want more sunlight
And the oaks ignore their pleas
The trouble with the maples
And they're quite convinced they're right
They say the oaks are just too lofty
And they grab up all the light
But the oaks can't help their feelings
If they like the way they're made
And they wonder why the maples
Can't be happy in their shade
There is trouble in the forest
And the creatures all have fled
As the maples scream "Oppression"
And the oaks just shake their heads
So the maples formed a union
And demanded equal rights
"The oaks are just too greedy
We will make them give us light"
Now there's no more oak oppression
For they passed a noble law
And the trees are all kept equal
By hatchet, axe, and saw
@jack and the Zukerborg started down a long, bad one-way road when they cut Trump off on January 6, it will be interesting to see what happens when they reach the end.
Just give political censorship decisions to teenaged girls and be done with it.
"It's a fools errand to try to determine what is truly misinformation couched in satire. Practically by definition satire is an exaggeration of reality. So all satire is "misinformation", at least in part. How stupid are these people?"
They're not stupid. The characterization of satire that makes fun of them as "disinformation" is a totalitarian attempt to ban speech they don't like.
left-leaning
50 shades of #MeToo, #Diversity, #Transpbohia, #RapeRape, #Collusion, etc.
Freeman Hunt @ 11:24 AM -- Exactly right.
Babylon bee is clearly labeled satire, its fake but accurate msnbc is not.
For example, The Babylon Bee, a right-leaning site, frequently trafficked in misinformation under the guise of satire.
You would have to be stupid to believe a Babylon Bee story and dishonest to claim that the site "traffics in misinformation." The Bee's articles are in the sweet spot: they are hit real targets, but they are clearly satire.
Anyway, it sounds like the Bee has this guy's number:
Being Outraged By Stupid Nonsense Replaces Baseball As National Pastime
"My banned comment was, "I don't want Marxist theory with my Shakespeare, I want someone to point out all the dick jokes (and other bawdy humor) that I'm missing because of changes in slang and word pronunciation." Unfortunately my comment was seen as too vulgar. It was weird discussing an author who wrote a lot of vulgar humor and not being able to say "dick"."
I think you ran afoul, not of Powerline, but of Disqus' censorship policies.
"Was the world always so full of brazen liars? It seems positively infested with them now."
Was the world always so full of brazen liars? Probably. Maybe we are luckier than the people of the past. We the people now can communicate with each other and fight back with our words. (Notice the satire?)
The Babylon Bee, a right-leaning site, frequently trafficked in misinformation under the guise of satire.
Good Party members understand that subversive humor must not be tolerated.
How would SNL, late night talk shows and The View be reacting if a Republican president had a son who was:
1) obviously receiving bribes
2) reasonably suspected of being a crack addict
3) known to have slept with his dead brother's widow (and his niece?)
4) known to have fathered a bastard child with a stripper
5) known to be a deadbeat dad to his bastard child
6) dumb enough to leave a laptop at a repair shop with incriminating evidence on it
7) being protected instead of prosecuted by the FBI?
Fucking fascists. Next, camps. No discussion needed. Ann, if you can’t see this, history will judge you.
Ann Althouse said...
Satire does work to get ideas out there, because the reader reverse-engineers what is the actual thing that it is based on.
Satire only works to get ideas out with people that are in the habit of abstract thought and look at the most likely possible outcomes of an idea in implementation.
People who make decisions based on emotion don't get it.
Ann Althouse said...
"Prof. Althouse's vendetta against the Babylon Bee continues, and, like so many liberal women, she is perfectly happy with the idea that anything she doesn't happen to find funny isn't worthy of free speech protection."
That's not an accurate interpretation of this post.
If you think the text justifies your interpretation, spell out why. Otherwise, take back your statement.
Case in point.
American Thinker and Frontpage Magazine have been removed from Discus for being hate groups. Do you think you’re immune? Do you think this doesn’t matter? Grow up, Ann.
The Babylon Bee is and always has been pure satire. It is painfully obvious to anyone with two brain cells to rub together. Matt Bors is also satirical, but he is a hate-filled, America-hating Lefty who isn't funny.
The Babylon Bee, a right-leaning site, frequently trafficked in misinformation under the guise of satire.
That statement is itself misinformation. Oh, the irony...
“ The Bee doesn't publish misinformation disguised as satire. Their stuff is clearly satire. ”
1. Facebook is concerned about the way the headlines appear on Facebook.
2. Even when you know it’s humor, it’s only humor because it’s based on something, so the readers infers what the something is.
“ Case in point.”
It would have been if I’d used my power to delete.
american thinker is accessible through me we, I don't know if front page is,
The Bee is often more specifically Christian than just conservative, and hits the abortion issue fairly frequently. On satire, one hits a limit where it is going after targets you don't care about, or even actively disagree with them, and the humor just drains out. I had that happen with the Onion, though I liked it for a few years, and some of the late-night comedians as well. I thought John Oliver was funny for the few episodes one of my sons sent me (I have not had TV since 1979) which dealt with subjects he knew I would like. I caught a few other things and liked them okay, though some just left me flat. As I saw a few routines that were not just silly and a little pointed, but I felt were unfair, it became more difficult for me to like the other ones any more.
A couple of young friends who are liberal Christians don't like BB much at all, even though I know they agree on some issues, such as Joel Osteen and the other prosperity preachers, or the multi-level marketing (especially essential oils) that is popular in wide parts of evangelical culture. The issues they disagree with just put them off too much. I suspect something similar happens with people who are not so much in evangelical culture or are more libertarian.
Ann Althouse said...
“ The Bee doesn't publish misinformation disguised as satire. Their stuff is clearly satire. ”
1. Facebook is concerned about the way the headlines appear on Facebook.
2. Even when you know it’s humor, it’s only humor because it’s based on something, so the readers infers what the something is.
Absolutely right- satire humor depends on being able to infer or track back to something real. That is both:
1. Why the Babylon Bee is humorous
2. Why the Babylon Bee is so damaging to the left.
The Bee doesn't just do political satire. They skewer bunches of other things. Including Christian organizations and television evangelists. What gets shared is- their political satire. Why? Because it is on target. A T.C. Mits who knows the Bee is satire, and reads a Bee article, and has no clue, might research it. And, the average American, once they find the news behind a Bee satire- tend to get peeved at the real news behind the satire. I rarely go to their actual website, but post links all the time on Facebook- that other people have posted. But let's analyze today's headlines.
"Progressive Christian Hopes Heaven Will Feature Segregated Spaces For Every Tribe, Tongue, Nation" What is this based on? Is it skewering a. Christians or b. Progressive leftists. At a guess, I'm going for a skewering of Columbia University holding six separate segregated graduation ceremonies. A leftist reading that headline might think "Yeah, that describes those brain dead Christians- want o be among only their own kind! Except a good Christian. welcomes anyone regardless of race, color, nationality, or language into their creed. And they're happy to covert other creeds....
Next headline: "What Gender Are You? Take The Quiz!". Actually, this is where the Bee sometimes strays into real news, for quizzes with that or similar titles have appeared in mainstream magazines. Still, everyone with half a brain knows who they're skewering- it's based on real news.
Next: "Putin Challenges Biden To Stair-Climbing Contest". Do we really need any discussion on this headline? BTW, my leftist friends still aren't aware of Biden's mental decline- if they've heard anything they believe it's right wing misinformation spread by Facebook memes....
"Newborn Thrown Out Of Hospital Nursery For Refusing To Wear A Mask". We've has a few links in other posts about similar things- like being thrown off an airplane because a 2 year old wouldn't mask up.
"Billions In Damages As Military Allows Women To Park The Tanks". Just another version of an old joke, not really satire, just plain old humor. Call it misogynic if you demand to be offended- and then explain why women tell similar jokes.
Then there's this: Report: "President Trump's Self-Approval Rating At All-Time High". I never saw this one shared, but it is humorous. And note- something libtards could have shared, but they confine themselves to echo chambers. President Trump didn't get where he was by being a mild mannered meek unassuming persona.
"For example, The Babylon Bee, a right-leaning site, frequently trafficked in misinformation under the guise of satire."
The grotesque stupidity of that line just floors me.
"You're passing misinformation with your satire!" " "What part of 'satire' do you not understand?"
FB got rid of the Babylon Bee because they're humorless scumbag leftists who could stand the way the BB was successfully mocking them
Ann Althouse said...
“ The Bee doesn't publish misinformation disguised as satire. Their stuff is clearly satire. ”
1. Facebook is concerned about the way the headlines appear on Facebook.
2. Even when you know it’s humor, it’s only humor because it’s based on something, so the readers infers what the something is.
1: Garbage. Facebook isn't responsible for the way the headlines appear. They're "concerned" because their political side is being effectively skewered
2: Now we come to the real point: FB is upset because BB highlights things that makes the Left look bad. And as a bunch of totalitarian thugs, FB can't allow that
Earnest Prole said...
It’s quaint people think Facebook employs millions of people to review billions of user posts each day, but 99.99999 percent of the moderation is performed by algorithms. Satires stings, and when people are stung they click the little button that says “I’m concerned about this post.” Enough clicks of this button per total views and the post is hidden.
And the proper response to that is you have humans check the things to promoted to "censored" status.
And if the thing shouldn't' be censored (and nothing from the BB deserves to be censored), you send an (auto generated) message to everyone who asked to censor the item, telling them they're abusing the process, and if they do it again they'll be punished.
After that you impose bans on people who try to ban politically disliked things.1 hour, then 1 day, then 1 week, then 1 month, then permanent ban.
The ban campaigns would have gone away quickly
And the proper response to that
The world would look radically different if I were the King of Proper.
Point is, people aren't being censored on FB or Twitter because whining little babies are complaining.
People are being censored because the thugs running those organizations want to censor
I think you ran afoul, not of Powerline, but of Disqus' censorship policies.
Nope, I can comment with Discus on other sites. I'm only banned on Powerline. I don't comment often, so I didn't find out until a couple of weeks later when I got the message, "We are unable to post your comment because you have been banned by Power Line." When I look at my past comments, it has the one I quoted marked "removed".
I probably should have just said "bawdy humor" without specifically mentioning dick jokes. Or maybe penis jokes would have been acceptable.
I thought I was doing well by not giving in to temptation and alluding to the joke in Twelfth Night: "By my life, this is my lady's hand: these be her very C's, her U's, and her T's; and thus makes she her great P's." Shakespeare was more vulgar than I'll ever be. He should be taught that way so students know he was writing for the common man as well as the elite.
It’s quaint people think Facebook employs millions of people to review billions of user posts each day, but 99.99999 percent of the moderation is performed by algorithms.
When I wrote to FB to challenge their ban, I told them their AI needed work. Or they needed to hire people old enough to know who Dahmer was.
The weirdest part was that I didn't get the ban notice until three months after I posted the meme. That their AI is sifting through my posts to a custom group of friends is kind of creepy.
That their AI is sifting through my posts to a custom group of friends is kind of creepy.
I probably misspoke using the term algorithm. No AI sifted through your posts. When the number of offended human eyes exceeded facebook’s threshold, the code kicked in.
The problem with what the social media platforms are doing isn't that they are squelching comments that they disagree with. It's that they are claiming that the comments they squelch are false, hateful, incitement, etc. If they were honest, they would say: We have deleted this post and blocked its author because we disagree with the opinions expressed. I could respect that,
Mary Beth,
I thought I was doing well by not giving in to temptation and alluding to the joke in Twelfth Night: "By my life, this is my lady's hand: these be her very C's, her U's, and her T's; and thus makes she her great P's."
I'd forgotten that one! "N" her T's, forsooth! I do love that man. All we musicians have for "c-word" jokes are a few bawdy catches; if you've got four parts and they end up singing "See," "You," "End," and "Tea" down an arpeggio several times in a catch, you know what's going on, yes?
When the number of offended human eyes exceeded facebook’s threshold, the code kicked in.
If it was all instances of the meme, maybe, but I doubt the limited number of friends that I have that could see it wouldn't meet any threshold.
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