February 15, 2021

"The parents of adventurous young meritocrats paid $5,490 (plus airfare) for two weeks studying 'Public Health and Development in the Andes.'"

"On that trip, the reporter, Donald G. McNeil Jr., got into a series of heated arguments with students, none of them Black, on the charged question of race. Their complaints would ultimately end his career as a high-profile public health reporter for The Times, and again put The Times at the center of the national argument over journalism and racism and labor.... The student at the center of this story is Sophie Shepherd, who isn’t among the teenagers who have spoken anonymously to other news organizations. She and two other students said she was the person who spoke the most to Mr. McNeil and spent the most time with him on their 'student journey.' She was 17 at the time, and had just finished her senior year at Phillips Academy Andover, a boarding school sometimes rated America’s best."

She’s the kind of teenager who is excited to talk to a New York Times correspondent about public health, and perhaps to put the adventure on a résumé. She had even done the optional reading Mr. McNeil suggested, Jared Diamond’s 1997 book, “Guns, Germs, and Steel,” a Pulitzer-winning history that argues that environmental and geographic factors produced the global domination of European civilization. 
The book has drawn criticism for a deterministic view that seems to absolve colonial powers of responsibility for their choices.... She asked him, she recalled, about the criticism of the book. “He got very defensive very quickly about it,” she recalled. “It’s just a book, it’s just making this point, it’s very simple, it’s not racist.” She said she backed down, apologized and “felt terribly guilty — like I must have come off as a crazy liberal.” 
At lunch that day, she said she sat down the table from Mr. McNeil at a cafe overlooking the town’s narrow streets, where he was talking to another student when he uttered the N-word, and used the word in the context of a discussion of racism. Some of the teenagers responded almost reflexively, she said, to object to his use of the word in any context. 
“I’m very used to people — my grandparents or people’s parents — saying things they don’t mean that are insensitive,” another student, who was then 17 and is now attending an Ivy League college, told me. “You correct them, you tell them, ‘You’re not supposed to talk like that,’ and usually people are pretty apologetic and responsive to being corrected. And he was not.” 
Ms. Shepherd said she thought the word was inappropriate but hardly the worst thing that happened on the trip, which she documented in a diary that she referred to in describing details to me. She also felt sorry for Mr. McNeil. “There was this atmosphere where people didn’t like him,” she said. “He was kind of a grumpy old guy.”...
A few nights later, after a hike up Machu Picchu, she sat with Mr. McNeil at dinner at El Albergue.... On the walk over, she said, she talked about her favorite class at Andover, a history of American education that covered racial discrimination. He responded, she recalled, that “it’s frustrating, because Black Americans keep blaming the system, but racism is over, there’s nothing against them anymore — they can get out of the ghetto if they want to.” 
Ms. Shepherd said she tried to argue, but he talked over her whenever she interjected, their voices getting louder and attracting the attention of other students, two of whom confirmed her account of the conversation. “This is the thing with these liberal institutions like Andover — they teach you the world should be like this but that’s not how reality is,” she recalled him telling her. 
(I sent Mr. McNeil a full account of Ms. Shepherd’s recollections; he said he won’t be responding publicly until he has officially left The Times on March 1. “I’m sure we’ll have different memories of conversations that took place that long ago,” he said in an email.)

She kept a diary. You never know how accurate any given observer's observations are, but contemporaneous day-by-day notes give her substantial power. Perhaps McNeil too has his notes, but his statements "I’m sure we’ll have different memories of conversations that took place that long ago" suggests that he did not write things down as they occurred. 

When Ben Smith gave McNeil a "full account of Ms. Shepherd’s recollections," did he include the fact that Shepherd kept a diary? I'm thinking no, because he said "memories of conversations that took place that long ago." She made a point of preserving her impressions and not merely relying on memory — though, of course, the impressions could have been inaccurate at the time, she could be interposing inaccuracy as she relies on her notes now to talk to Smith, and she could even be dishonest in her claim that she did keep a diary. Hearsay problems galore.

Now that Shepherd has come forward and connected her identity with McNeil's fate, it's quite possible that the critics of cancel culture will come after her. Unlike McNeil, who can retire from his reporting career and still do well by writing books, Shepherd has her entire career in front of her. She may be a privileged young woman, with parents who could afford to send her on the trip and to Phillips Academy Andover, but she did nothing wrong, reading and thinking and talking about her ideas in a setting where McNeil was holding himself out as a resource for her and owed her those conversations. She doesn't even sound as though she was impudent and self-righteous.

I'm seeing things like this at Twitter:

Take care not to become the thing that you deplore. 

ADDED: Let me be clear that Christina Hoff Sommers is reacting to that article in the NYT about Sophie Shepherd:

I quite specifically mean to say that there is a danger that the opponents of cancel culture are slipping into a cancel culture of their own. I am trying to be accurate and fair to everyone concerned.

You can see that Lee Fang (an investigative journalist at The Intercept) is saying something about Shepherd — that she "falsely accused famed science reporter Don McNeill of racism, effectively ending his storied career at the Times" — and that is not supported by the text of the article. Yet Fang poses as outraged at false accusations!

249 comments:

1 – 200 of 249   Newer›   Newest»
Achilles said...

This little fascist was attending a boarding school that cost around 60 grand a year.

She was born rich.

Just like most fascists.

TheOne Who Is Not Obeyed said...

In the future everyone will be deplorable for 15 minutes.

WWIII Joe Biden, Husk-Puppet + America's Putin said...

Don't argue with the new woke Nazi youth. Rolph wins every time.

Achilles said...

“I’m very used to people — my grandparents or people’s parents — saying things they don’t mean that are insensitive,” another student, who was then 17 and is now attending an Ivy League college, told me. “You correct them, you tell them, ‘You’re not supposed to talk like that,’ and usually people are pretty apologetic and responsive to being corrected. And he was not.”


These people need to be defeated.

Usually it is 30% of military age males. But apparently we need to include the females too now.

Ann Althouse said...

"This little fascist..."

Tell me what she did that you consider "fascist." You sound like a cancel culture person.

Ann Althouse said...

"Don't argue with the new woke Nazi youth."

Tell me what she did that you consider "Nazi." You sound like a cancel culture person. Don't become the problem you think you are a critic of!

rhhardin said...

Nobody gives a fuck what he said.

Talking past the sale.

Achilles said...

Ann Althouse said...

"This little fascist..."

Tell me what she did that you consider "fascist." You sound like a cancel culture person.

McNeil was a "journalist" for 45 years.

She got him fired.

WWIII Joe Biden, Husk-Puppet + America's Putin said...

I have a woke nephew who is in his young 20's..

He's a lovely young man and I love him dearly - but I do not talk politics with him. He'd fall apart and probably call the police on me.

Our youth are not taught to argue and disagree and grow up about it. They are taught their feelings matter most and if anyone dare to step on those feelings - "Off with their heads!"

We are raising a nation of queens from Alice in Wonderland.

(ack - someone in another thread posted to that, and I appreciate it!)

Greg Hlatky said...

You correct them, you tell them, ‘You’re not supposed to talk like that,’

And when they say that, you correct them, you tell them, 'You're an ill-mannered little trollop. Shut up until you grow up."

Ann Althouse said...

I agree that her use of the word "correct" is ridiculous considering the age and experience difference, but she's far more polite and considerate of him than we Boomers were to our elders in the 60s.

You don't even know how the word "correct" feels to her, in her context or where she learned it.

She sounds like a pretty respectful person to me.

TheOne Who Is Not Obeyed said...

“You correct them, you tell them, ‘You’re not supposed to talk like that,’

Censorship is fascist. She should be cancelled.

WWIII Joe Biden, Husk-Puppet + America's Putin said...

I'm not trying to cancel anyone, Ann.
Her complaints over an argument got someone fired.

rhhardin said...

If you want to know what's going on, you have to know the guy. I'd guess he's not a flaming redneck racist just offhand.

We're talking generally about a woke doctrine of trigger words, which you can dismiss as crazy from the start.

The guy is right that blacks are making their ghetto for themselves. Good character works, resentment does not.

Kate said...

The grumpy old guy who takes teens on a 2 wk overseas trip sets off red flags. What other adult attended? Who was a chaperone?

He probably makes fun of Mike Pence, too.

TheOne Who Is Not Obeyed said...

"You don't even know how the word "correct" feels to her, in her context or where she learned it."

I don't even care how the word "correct" feels to her. Her feelings are utterly irrelevant. Even less relevant is where she learned to be such a censorious twit.

Sebastian said...

"she did nothing wrong, reading and thinking and talking about her ideas"

But that's not all she did.

Grumpy liberals: watch out for young progs.

readering said...

Surprised a guy in his mid-sixties would want to chaperone a trip like this for teens.

AA read the comments generally. Fascist is thrown around here against people perceived to be on the left like it was by anti-war folks at the height of the Viet Nam War.

Funny the fight about Guns, Germs and Steel. The usual critics of the book are from the VDare types.

hawkeyedjb said...

"Getting people fired for expressing something in an unapproved manner."

OK, Althouse says it's not fascist. Let's come up with a term for it.

Ann Althouse said...

It sounds as though he didn't know how to use his age and experience to respond to them. Why didn't McNeil model superior behavior, rather than get — if this is true — irascible? Why go to Peru and offer yourself as a guide to young people if you don't want to try to connect with them? They paid for this experience and he was — if this is true — grumpy and he expressed himself in a rigid way toward them. Why didn't he have a vision of himself as a teacher and try to lift them up some how? Try to educate?

I wonder if drinking was involved. Some of this took place in a restaurant.

I wonder what he was paid.

Achilles said...

Ann Althouse said...

I agree that her use of the word "correct" is ridiculous considering the age and experience difference, but she's far more polite and considerate of him than we Boomers were to our elders in the 60s.

You don't even know how the word "correct" feels to her, in her context or where she learned it.

She sounds like a pretty respectful person to me.


She was totally polite while she ruined the evil racist's life.

mccullough said...

Their parents each paid almost $6,000 so their kids could hear a view different than their own.

They paid almost $60,000 a year to shield their kids from other views.

WWIII Joe Biden, Husk-Puppet + America's Putin said...

I might disagree with this McNeil grump - but I really don't think I'd seek to get him fired over a conversation with him that I entered into my diary when I was 17.



Achilles said...

readering said...

Surprised a guy in his mid-sixties would want to chaperone a trip like this for teens.

Yeah.

Those old guys are probably just waiting to rape those young girls. That is what men do after all.

That's the only reason he would want to hang out with young people.

He needs to be fired yesterday.

DanTheMan said...

>>“You correct them, you tell them, ‘You’re not supposed to talk like that,’ and usually people are pretty apologetic and responsive to being corrected. And he was not.”

I can't imagine, at 17, correcting my father, and telling him "You're not supposed to talk like that."

I know exactly what he would have said to me. And he would have been right.

rhhardin said...

Still, there's the importance of women's feelings. That governs everything in the soap opera that is news.

Ann Althouse said...

"I'm not trying to cancel anyone, Ann.
Her complaints over an argument got someone fired."

So any time a young person complains about a teacher or other adult authority figure, the young person is to blame? If McNeil was wrongly fired, it is the NYT that is to blame, not the young person who went on the tour and had a justified expectation that the representative of the NYT would do a good job of interacting with her. If she's lying, she is to blame. But what are you saying, that whenever a true account of an employee's behavior gets an employee fired, the complainer is to blame?

NorthOfTheOneOhOne said...

She was 17 at the time, and had just finished her senior year at Phillips Academy Andover, a boarding school sometimes rated America’s best."

Tuition is $58K per year.

rhhardin said...

I always moved to another table if there were nearby teens.

Ken B said...

Umm, Althouse

Let me repeat that, louder

Ummm ...

“ She doesn't even sound as though she was ... self-righteous.”
Didn’t you notice the bit you bolded about how she is used to bullying parents into agreeing?

WWIII Joe Biden, Husk-Puppet + America's Putin said...

Kate.
If McNeil would have dropped a nice slight or insult against Reagan or Pence, or some such like person, - he would have been spared! It's your woke old grumpy guy N-word get out of double deep trouble card.

ugh - I'm less interested in the boring N-word and more interested in the fact that the NYT is eating its own.

Achilles said...

Ann Althouse said...

It sounds as though he didn't know how to use his age and experience to respond to them. Why didn't McNeil model superior behavior, rather than get — if this is true — irascible? Why go to Peru and offer yourself as a guide to young people if you don't want to try to connect with them? They paid for this experience and he was — if this is true — grumpy and he expressed himself in a rigid way toward them. Why didn't he have a vision of himself as a teacher and try to lift them up some how? Try to educate?

Um. That is exactly what he was trying to do. Did you read the story? He was quoting actual historical examples.

I wonder if drinking was involved. Some of this took place in a restaurant.

I wonder what he was paid.


Do all women just assume men are bad people?

Or just some of you.

Ann Althouse said...

I want to be precisely fair to Shepherd and McNeil, and any of you who won't do that are wrong!

mccullough said...

Better to smile on all who smile and show
There is a comfortable kind of old scarecrow.

TheOne Who Is Not Obeyed said...

I suspect travel companies that set up this sort of junket are now having difficulty engaging appropriately credentialed professionals to participate in these "experiences" at a sufficiently low cost. If said professional is smart enough to work in elite coastal circles they are smart enough to know not to risk one of these Violet Beauregards coming along for the "experience" and destroying a career.

Calling it an "experience" is a signal that you want to stay far away.

Ann Althouse said...

"Didn’t you notice the bit you bolded about how she is used to bullying parents into agreeing?"

Did I notice the bit that I put in boldface?

Yes, and do you understand why I did that when I am saying these other things?

rhhardin said...

Who's blaming the girl? Who's paying any attention to her, is the question.

Try to act encouraging and maybe she'll have something interesting to say in twenty years.

Like praising a toddler for a tower of blocks when she says something.

Humperdink said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
WWIII Joe Biden, Husk-Puppet + America's Putin said...

Ann-
Well, the NYT criteria for firing people and cancelling opinions it finds "troubling" is very troubling. or perhaps funny.

Ann Althouse said...

People just take sides! This is depressing. The damned impeachment trial is over, where everyone just voted for or against Trump, and now there's this, and you want to do the same thing. A downward spiral. Please do your part to stop the decline.

rhhardin said...

She said he said n-word and somebody cared? That's the news.

Ken B said...

“She didn’t do anything wrong.”

I guess we just have to differ on that, because I think she went out of her way to get him punished for the crime of not agreeing with her.
I don’t know about you, but I had teachers with ideas I disliked. I never tried to get one punished.

Ann Althouse said...

"We're talking generally about a woke doctrine of trigger words, which you can dismiss as crazy from the start."

Did you read even the part of the article that I quoted? It's depressing to see this kind of distortion.

rhhardin said...

I claim there was nothing to investigate. How neutral is that.

gspencer said...

I wonder if she and Pavel Morozov ever played a game of pick-n-choose,

Eeny, meeny, miny, moe . . .

mccullough said...

Shepherd’s mistake was telling a NY Times reporter that hearing McNeil say the N word wasn’t the worst thing about the trip.

Ann Althouse said...

""she did nothing wrong, reading and thinking and talking about her ideas"/"But that's not all she did."

You have to say what she did.

You are accusing a real person, a young person. It's cheap and unfair to write "that's not all she did" and not say what you think she did. Your failure to specify makes me infer that you have nothing. Rebut my presumption, if you can.

Howard said...

Machu Picchu is at about 8,000-feet. It's pretty impressive for a mid sixties city slicker to be able to hike up there. Any amount of drinking could easily go to your head when breathing 25% less O2

rhhardin said...

I'm speed reading not distorting. The important thing was the NYT fired the guy for speaking the n-word. Is there anything else to it?

Not caring about the girl is expressed by speed reading.

It seemed like you were supporting the truth of her claim. I don't care if it's true. It doesn't matter.

His defense isn't that he didn't say it, it's that you people are crazy.

Achilles said...

Ann Althouse said...

"I'm not trying to cancel anyone, Ann.
Her complaints over an argument got someone fired."

So any time a young person complains about a teacher or other adult authority figure, the young person is to blame? If McNeil was wrongly fired, it is the NYT that is to blame, not the young person who went on the tour and had a justified expectation that the representative of the NYT would do a good job of interacting with her. If she's lying, she is to blame. But what are you saying, that whenever a true account of an employee's behavior gets an employee fired, the complainer is to blame?


What was her complaint? Spell it out Ann. He used the N-word while trying to explain some historical context to her.

She called him a racist.

When he said "I am not a racist" she got upset. It was the fact he refused to accept her label that got him fired. You want to throw the NYT's in there? I agree. But they are all part of the same machine that is destroying the fabric of our society.

And you need to deal with the consequences of your position here.

What is the future of discussion in your world?

You have never had to work or go to school in a place where saying what you believe would get you fired.

Ken B said...

Althouse
You talk about people taking sides, after you post that “she did nothing wrong” and that she wasn’t... self righteous.”
Well the latter is certainly wrong, she was decidedly self righteous. And whether she did wrong is precisely the point at issue. You declare for one side and then complain that others take the opposite.

Ann Althouse said...

"AA read the comments generally. Fascist is thrown around here against people perceived to be on the left like it was by anti-war folks at the height of the Viet Nam War."

Both sides are wrong to do that and the fact that it's done a lot doesn't make it okay. It's possible that "fascist" and "Nazi" have no meaning anymore, but I don't think so. I think it makes you bad to call anyone a "fascist" or a "Nazi" unless you really mean it or it's part of a joke (like "the soup Nazi").

HistoryDoc said...

She got her first scalp, probably won't be her last.

Freeman Hunt said...

I always liked the grumpy old guy/girl teacher best.

WWIII Joe Biden, Husk-Puppet + America's Putin said...

Us too, Ann! Fairness for Shepherd and McNeil!

I think they should have a talk show on PBS. Be great fun. A mix of old grumpy racist and sweet young woke.

No fairness for the NYT, tho. I lack the fairness gene for that pile of woke cancel queens that guard the privileged premises at the uni-think NYT.

rhhardin said...

The girl's been taught that saying the n-word is very important. Not her fault. Listening to her is somebody's fault, and that's the guy to disparage. The NYT in general, is the guy.

Balfegor said...

She may be a privileged young woman, with parents who could afford to send her on the trip and to Phillips Academy Andover,

I hadn't realised until today the immense gulf of privilege that separated McNeil from the children he was escorting on this trip. True, he seems to have gone straight from Berkeley to copy boy at the New York Times, so he launched his career from a position of relative advantage. But lots of people graduate from Berkeley or other elite public universities. There's only a tiny handful of Americans who attend elite prep schools like Groton and Andover. The White students McNeil was paid to accompany probably knew they were privileged. In their rarefied environment, they may have found it difficult to recognise how little of that was because they were White, and how much of that was merely because their parents were extremely rich (and probably well-connected.)

Ann Althouse said...

"She was totally polite while she ruined the evil racist's life."

What, exactly, did she do? Why are you pinning this on her? If you sent your daughter on this NYT-branded tour, would you think that your daughter could express to the NYT what she thought was deficient about the way the tour-leader treated the clients?

Do you think university students should be allowed to write evaluations of professors at the end of a course and that if bad evaluations cause the teacher not to get tenure, the students should be condemned for ruining the professor's life?

rcocean said...

C'mon you people are being ridiculous. The man didn't get fired because this little pipsqueak "told on him". He got fired because the Editor and Sulzberger wanted to fire him. That's why he's out of a job.

Its Generation Z. Its not some little tootsie that's a "girl reporter". Its because the POWERFUL Billionaires who own these media outlets want this. They are responsible. This isn't the U of W law school. The inmates don't run the asylum.

rhhardin said...

I'm sure Althouse has an interesting point but just can't compress it much.

Try restating it in other words, and in less time. The same feelings don't wash over the readers as the writers, very often.

WWIII Joe Biden, Husk-Puppet + America's Putin said...

Stay away from Rolph. Whatever you do, the N word will end your career and send you to the streets to live in poverty for the rest of your days. Those are the rules.

JSD said...

Let’s not forget the illustrious Phillips Andover alumni shoplifter who was at the center of Oberlin College debacle. Meritocrat my ass.

Ann Althouse said...

"I'm speed reading not distorting."

That's some ripe bullshit.

WWIII Joe Biden, Husk-Puppet + America's Putin said...

RCOceanfront cracks the code. 4:09.

Chennaul said...

Wonder why the direct context of the n-word is not mentioned.

MadisonMan said...

I think it a mistake to let your name get entangled in something like this, given how employers hire.

Achilles said...

Ann Althouse said...

You have to say what she did.

You are accusing a real person, a young person. It's cheap and unfair to write "that's not all she did" and not say what you think she did. Your failure to specify makes me infer that you have nothing. Rebut my presumption, if you can.



How does this appear in a story in a news periodical:

At lunch that day, she said she sat down the table from Mr. McNeil at a cafe overlooking the town’s narrow streets, where he was talking to another student when he uttered the N-word, and used the word in the context of a discussion of racism. Some of the teenagers responded almost reflexively, she said, to object to his use of the word in any context. “I’m very used to people — my grandparents or people’s parents — saying things they don’t mean that are insensitive,” another student, who was then 17 and is now attending an Ivy League college, told me. “You correct them, you tell them, ‘You’re not supposed to talk like that,’ and usually people are pretty apologetic and responsive to being corrected. And he was not.”


Is it magic? She told a reporter this.

It appeared in a newspaper story.

It didn't go out in front of millions of eyes on accident.

And yes there were adults involved in publicly destroying a man's life. But they made sure to destroy him publicly in a way that would serve notice to all others in society.

They destroyed McNeil's life over use of a word in a completely innocuous context to push their agenda.

Their agenda is to shut people up.

Ken B said...

Ocean is at sea again.
He was fired for mentioning the forbidden word.
That mention was brought to the NYT by this young woman and others, who were outraged that they could not cow him into submission as she boasts of doing to others in the bolded passage.
For her the issue is he wouldn’t submit, for the NYT the issue was the reaction of his 150 snot coworkers.

n.n said...

Diversity dogma, not limited to racism, is a progressive condition: one step forward, two steps backward. Cancel culture is a socially justified bubble constructed to protect its inhabitants.

Semantic games. Conceptual corruption. Conflation of logical domains. A Twilight faith. An ostensibly "secular" religious philosophy that is selective, opportunistic, relativistic ("ethical"), and politically congruent. A divergent, generational ideology. Mortal gods and goddesses braying principles that are internally, externally, and mutually inconsistent. The tell-tale hearts beat ever louder.

Achilles said...

rcocean said...

C'mon you people are being ridiculous. The man didn't get fired because this little pipsqueak "told on him". He got fired because the Editor and Sulzberger wanted to fire him. That's why he's out of a job.

Its Generation Z. Its not some little tootsie that's a "girl reporter". Its because the POWERFUL Billionaires who own these media outlets want this. They are responsible. This isn't the U of W law school. The inmates don't run the asylum.


I agree with all of this.

Mike (MJB Wolf) said...

So much racism bullshit is created by over-privileged white kids guilted into hating themselves for being born white and privileged who seek lesser whites to practice their rogue group therapy. Such a shame to see the lowly ok’ gray whore’s ungrateful children fighting over the kast shred if her uh... dignity.

Ann Althouse said...

Speaking of grumpy old men, are any of you commenters grumpy old men? I'm thinking yes.

rcocean said...

As for why the adults are PRETENDING to care about this. I'm not smart enough to say. But girls and Women LOVE THis sorta thing. In the USSR and East Germany, the biggest snitches were always women. There was some crazy Russian Broad in the 1930's who was responsible for sending over 100 people to the Gulags, until the Soviet Police finally figured out she was making stuff up.

BTW, where was this great NYT reporter when everyone to his Right was getting censored, deplatformed, and banned? Oh that right, he didn't care or he approved. well, like Trotsky he met Stalin. Only he got axed from his job, and not an ax to the head.

Sads.

Ken B said...

The Platonic Ideal of Hardin Vindication:

Blogger Ann Althouse said...
Speaking of grumpy old men, are any of you commenters grumpy old men? I'm thinking yes.

mockturtle said...

I wasn't able to access the article but I certainly do not hold it against her that she was able to attend a prominent prep school. What was lacking here was an explanation about the 'heated discussion'. And why was the reporter engaging with them, anyway?

mccullough said...

Should we be surprised that this sounds like the first time Shepherd and some others on the trip had a more than transitory encounter with a grumpy older man?

rcocean said...

I'm a grumpy old man. And you're a old woman. Are old women grumpy? Or effervescent?

MadisonMan said...

I wonder what he was paid.
I would say he got free airfare/lodging down/back, a per diem and a set fee of several thousand dollars. Just a guess.
You could not pay me enough to shepherd youth (unless I'm related to them) through Central or South America.

RMc said...

People just take sides! This is depressing. The damned impeachment trial is over, where everyone just voted for or against Trump, and now there's this, and you want to do the same thing. A downward spiral. Please do your part to stop the decline.

Here's an idea: please stop trolling your own readership. Geez, are you that bored? Maybe you should go back to work.

Oh, and also: "Ummmmmm...."

rcocean said...

Personally, I always identified with Dopey and not grumpy. I've always thought of Althouse as our Snow white. But she'd think that racist.

Ken B said...

For the record
I am male. I am 8 years younger than you. I am sardonic but not grumpy.

Now, answer my point please. You declared her innocent of any wrongdoing, yet insist it is other people taking sides. How is that consistent?

rcocean said...

Ken there are 7 oceans. but only ONE rcocean.

rhhardin said...

It's not being grumpy if Althouse doesn't make it interesting.

The guy getting fired for saying the n-word isn't the important thing.

You have to start by saying that, so that people know there's something interesting coming, instead of something obviously not interesting.

Then you, right away, have to say what is the important thing.

Otherwise we speed read and wonder what the fuck.

Freeman Hunt said...

It's normal to have an irascible character on this type of event. It's part of the casting.

rhhardin said...

As they say, the essence of language is restating in other words what has been badly said.

Jim at said...

‘You’re not supposed to talk like that.

Go fuck yourself.
Next.

Amadeus 48 said...

Here is my problem with this: why is it coming up in 2021? Who poked the hornet’s nest? There is little doubt that the young woman provided the ammunition, but why is this coming up now? It seems to me that the young employees in the newsroom started this, with an assist from the 1619 lady. Young Sophie Shepherd told the NYT investigators what she remembered, assisted by her diary.

Also, note that it was another student on the trip, not young Sophie, who provided the “you correct them” line.

My take on this: there are real class differences, and the young people on the trip didn’t relate well to a blue collar guy who worked his way up from the bottom over 47 years. He didn’t fit well into their romantic views of Robert Redford in the newsroom. He thought he was was giving them a window into real life; they thought he was a grumpy old bigot.

There is a moral here: chaperoning a trip like this with students like this is a real mistake.

Inga said...

“Did you read even the part of the article that I quoted? It's depressing to see this kind of distortion.”

And it’s only going to get worse. This is what Trumpism wrought. Distortion of reality allowed it to gain strength, living outside of reality and being unwilling or unable to recognize reality or even remotely consider both sides is the prevalent feature of Trumpism. Everyone who disagrees with Trumpist ideas is a fascist or a Nazi we are told here daily in these comments sections. IMO.

doctrev said...

Ann Althouse said...
You sound like a cancel culture person. Don't become the problem you think you are a critic of!

2/15/21, 3:44 PM

How the hell does someone with such narrow historical perspective become a law professor, never mind do it long enough to retire? The original National Socialism was as much a reaction to communism in Europe as anything else. Street battle for street battle, death camp for death camp. (And later, the Soviets would establish puppet governments outside their homeland much like the Nazis did.) The current illegitimate posers in the White House are far less competent than the Bolsheviks, but equally vicious. It's guaranteed that neoliberal autocracy will fuel a national populism, and they will use any means to win. If you think you can stand up to the rise of whoever neo-Hitler turns out to be, much less persuade anyone to stand with the failed establishment idea of "trusting your elites," you're wrong. If you're regretting your non-vote, it's far too late.

WWIII Joe Biden, Husk-Puppet + America's Putin said...

Perhaps we are grumpy because the NYT is so... irritatingly gross.
or because it's 3 degrees outside during covid.

Mike (MJB Wolf) said...

Is this not the fallout from the n-word kerfuffle? Policing speech is stupid. Training young adults to aspire to snitch about speech infractions is double-stupid.

Achilles said...

rcocean said...

I'm a grumpy old man. And you're a old woman. Are old women grumpy? Or effervescent?

Don't say the "H" word.

Mary Beth said...

‘You’re not supposed to talk like that,’ and usually people are pretty apologetic and responsive to being corrected. And he was not.

Maybe because he wasn't using it as a slur. Still, if this were on r/AmItheAsshole, I'd pick ESH (everybody sucks here). Especially the staffers at the NYT that wanted him fired.

Why was he taking these kids on a field trip if he doesn't have the personality that fits with rich, woke teenagers? Is his in-person personality vastly different from his writing personality? If not, why did they choose to go on a trip with him?

Until this article, I didn't know that all the students on the trip were white. I had assumed that someone felt personally insulted, but now it seems like it was more of a "white man's burden" conversation.

rcocean said...

Some people think for themselves. But most are conformist. And that's especially true of young people. Tell them to goosestep and they do that. Tell them to clap for comrade stalin? The same. Tell them to inform on someone for using the NWORD - they're happy to comply.


This 17 y/o girl, now a woman, was brainwashed into thinking the NWORD was the worsthinginworld. So, she did what she did. The real question is, why do people think saying the NWORD is the worstest thing in the whole world? Why? Althouse is older than I am. When did all this start? I can remember seeing Dick Gregory book in the liberary. It was entitled "NWORD". No one cared. Now, anyone putting that book on the shelf would be fired. Why? What changed. You tell me, smart people.

I'm Full of Soup said...

I do recall my nieces telling their mother she could not say "Oriental" any more. I thought what a bunch of shit the world is becoming.

WWIII Joe Biden, Husk-Puppet + America's Putin said...

Inag shows up to turn something that has nothing to do with Trump into Trump.
That's obsession.

Be nice if we could cancel the Trump-obsessed weirdo.

Mike (MJB Wolf) said...

So if I go to purchase gender reveal pyrotechnics and the only bombs available only explode in pink or blue how is that not inherently transphobic?

n.n said...

Was it repeated, reproduced, progressive? Does he have a history of diversitist practice? Intent matters, and, per social activists and advocates, JournoLists, and confirmed by Democrat leaders, can can be inferred.

mccullough said...

Tourism is colonialism

Mike (MJB Wolf) said...

Even assuming you as a parent can like *know* your baby’s gender is racist!

Freeman Hunt said...

The girl sounds like the usual product of these schools: polite, professional, taught history through a social justice framework and humanities through a find your voice framework, and has convincingly developed niche interest (public health here) to use on college applications. This is the outcome they try to sell you at the elite school pitch meetings. (If this isn't the product you like, you pass.)

His firing isn't her fault. Screw the NYT.

Chennaul said...

True, he seems to have gone straight from Berkeley to copy boy at the New York Times


*************

I caught the copy boy part but missed Berkeley. Berkeley is still a public school and tuition especially back then would not be the same obstacle that it is today. So I concur with your observation and only add that as reinforcement.

*************

I do not have a blanket rule for free speech so even in this case— context matters and it’s a problem that it seems to be missing.

I also wonder why on a trip to Peru she wanted to engage him on the topic of Racism towards black Americans and where on the timeline of events that happens.

But the lack of context overrides everything else, and the fact that it is being withheld forces me to side with the person being punished.

Achilles said...

Inga said...

“Did you read even the part of the article that I quoted? It's depressing to see this kind of distortion.”

And it’s only going to get worse. This is what Trumpism wrought. Distortion of reality allowed it to gain strength, living outside of reality and being unwilling or unable to recognize reality or even remotely consider both sides is the prevalent feature of Trumpism. Everyone who disagrees with Trumpist ideas is a fascist or a Nazi we are told here daily in these comments sections. IMO.


The only person on your said write now is Inga Ann.

Of course Inga is going to cheer on the destruction of someone's life. Even someone who was on her side. She is an evil person. She loves to see people destroyed and revels in the pain of others.

At that point you need to reconsider just how exactly you got to where you are.

You are so far down your box canyon and the sky is so far away.

Ken B said...

Mock “ And why was the reporter engaging with them, anyway?”

Maybe because he thought his role was to share his experience and expertise. I had when I was young teachers who did that. Not once did it occur to me to try to get any of them punished. ( She did and still does. I think she was angered and resentful of his resistance to her platitudes and decided to try to get him punished. )

But to get to what I think is your point. People won’t in future. In most contexts. What’s the point if a snot can decide to try to punish you if you deviate from their demands. Horrible incentive structure.

Amadeus 48 said...

Another way to look at it: McNeil is getting a well-earned retirement with a golden handshake.

And to Althouse: I think I am sweet-tempered, but my wife tells me I am getting a bit grumpy and less interested in hearing what others have to say. I cannot say she is wrong.

Retirement and these darn lockdowns have led me to having less practice in getting along with others with whom I disagree.

Owen said...

Never mind “fascist” as a descriptor of that student. How about “prig.”

rhhardin said...

And it’s only going to get worse. This is what Trumpism wrought.

I came before Trump.

Rabel said...

Some days a visit to Althouse is a visit to the Twilight Zone.

Balfegor said...

Viewed in the context of a bunch of posh young preppies swanning around overseas with their hired tutor, this:

Some of the teenagers responded almost reflexively, she said, to object to his use of the word in any context. “I’m very used to people — my grandparents or people’s parents — saying things they don’t mean that are insensitive,” another student, who was then 17 and is now attending an Ivy League college, told me. “You correct them, you tell them, ‘You’re not supposed to talk like that,’ and usually people are pretty apologetic and responsive to being corrected. And he was not.”

reads as comic, in its extraordinary privilege. Imagine that! The help daring to talk back when graciously "corrected" by his 17-year old betters! The villein should count himself lucky he wasn't flogged.

To Shepard's credit, it doesn't sound like she was constantly reaching for the smelling salts at his effrontry in refusing to accept a bunch of teenagers' framing of every question. And it also sounds like he didn't have the patience to take their ideological prejuduces seriously either. It doesn't sound like any of these discussions were particularly relevant to the ostensible purpose of the trip (why would you go to Peru to talk about race relations in the US?) anyhow, so I'm inclined to think the children should have chalked it up to exposure to a different culture.

But ultimately, it's not their fault for complaining. A servant gets uppity, you complain to the agency. Actual schoolteachers at private
schools apparently get this all the time too from their students and their students' parents, so a bunch of posh youths complaining to the Times that their Times-provided escort wasn't properly deferential to their sensibilities is only to be expected. It is, rather, the fault of the Times for terminating him.

Mark said...

You know, this obsession with the New York Times and what it says and thinks and does, as if it is the rightful center of power and be all and end all, reeks of white privilege.

rcocean said...

BTw, this is one reason I never became a history teacher instead of going into the business world. I thought, who wants to spent their lives talking to dumb teenagers? Seriously, you have to wonder what kind of grown man wants to talk to 17 year old girls? And this guy wasn't some pervy character (as far as I know). He really thought he was "Making a difference".

Hell, I enjoyed talking to my daughter as a teenager, but she's my daughter. There's no way I'd spend my time talking to teenagers unless I was related to them!

FullMoon said...

"Piss on you! I'm working for Mel Brooks!"

Howard said...

His colleagues got him in enough hot water he resigned. Sounds like a guy who liked rubbing everyone the wrong way.

Mike (MJB Wolf) said...

Usually the character who corrects other's like that are the assholes.

WWIII Joe Biden, Husk-Puppet + America's Putin said...

Russia Russia I-nag is concerned about people buying lies.
Calling Tulsi and Jill Stein - report for Russian asset duty!

n.n said...

I do recall my nieces telling their mother she could not say "Oriental" any more.

Russians aren't Asian. While several billion people... persons in that region are. African-American is notoriously, rabidly diversitist. Some Hispanics are White. The Rainbow inclusion excludes black, brown, and white. Some, Select Black Lives Matter. Sometimes she's a baby, sometimes she's a Fetal[-American] for purposes of social distancing and progress.

They really should lose their religion.

Inga said...

What it sounds like to me is that McNeil didn’t like these young people to begin with, he thought them to be spoiled rich arrogant brats whose dumb parents have money to burn. He probably was tickled to have the chance to shock the little rich kids without their parents being there to hear it. I don’t see him as a man who is trying to simply teach these young people, he seems sort of like Shouting Thomas, an asshole who likes hearing himself and gets a weird thrill out of being shockingly disgusting and isn’t interested in teaching anything worthwhile at all. He was having his sadistic fun at the expense of the rich kids and their parents. My opinion.

hawkeyedjb said...

" ...outraged that they could not cow him into submission as she boasts of doing to others..."

This is the crux of the matter. The little squeaks are accustomed to getting their way, and when they don't, their fallback is to ruin someone. There are some, like McNeil, who will just take it. There are those, like McNeil's employer, who will join in the beating. And there are those who cheer, and those who rationalize giving 17-year olds power over a man's career. Those are the only kind of people who are now permitted to work at the New York Times.

WWIII Joe Biden, Husk-Puppet + America's Putin said...

He just wanted a free trip to Machu Picchu for crying out loud.

Achilles said...

Amadeus 48 said...

Another way to look at it: McNeil is getting a well-earned retirement with a golden handshake.

McNeil's public flagellation at the end leads me to agree that he was a part of this and there probably was indeed a wonderful retirement package involved.

There are no good actors anywhere in this story.

rhhardin said...

When you think like a woman apparently it's a mistake to expect universal sympathy.

Inga said...

“Sounds like a guy who liked rubbing everyone the wrong way.”

Exactly. That’s why he reminded me of Shouting Thomas.

Michael said...

Her parents have more money than she has brains. She is at the University of Iowa. Bound to be a colossal disappointment to mummy. But. She has redeemed herself with wokely ruing this guys life. Brave of her. Standing in the Pettus bridge like that.

mockturtle said...

I'm sure many of us were idealistic and rather stupid as young people. Where we go wrong is taking them seriously.

rcocean said...

Just as an insight into the teenage mind, I'll offer myself as an example. when i was younger in the 1970's i was embarrassed by my father using the word "Colored" to refer to black people. How "archie bunker" I thought. Looking back, i can see i was just brainwashed into that response. MY father had grown up when "colored" was the official and "nice" way to refer to black people. In fact, in the 40s/50s to call black people "black" or "African" was considered an insult. My Dad just hadn't gotten up to speed with the "approved labels".

But I was all butthurt because my Dad had embarrassed me by calling an AFRO_AMERICAN "colored". That's why you don't care what teenagers think. They're easily lead, and stupid.

Howard said...

It's a self-critical article in the Times about office politics. The kids involvement was between tangential and orthogonal. It's really about the overly woke nature of the staff and the back-stabbing and infighting that's going on now.

Achilles and his enablers are just a stupid mean jealous helpless pathetic gang of Qanon meat puppets who drool every-time a libtard takes a dump.

mccullough said...

It’s ambiguous whether Shepherd was upset by the way McNeil talked to her or what he said or both.

Sebastian said...

"You are accusing a real person, a young person. It's cheap and unfair to write "that's not all she did" and not say what you think she did. Your failure to specify makes me infer that you have nothing."

WTF? Seriously. Achilles already answered this, but all she did is in the reporting.

And WTF? The little progs are doing the accusing.

Jeez. It's enough to make an even-keeled cynic quite grumpy.

Anyway, another data point to show how the Althouse nice-woman, let's-be-fair I-need-evidence shtick aids and abets the prog abominations.

And no, I am not accusing the brave diarist of being an abomination.

Achilles said...

Howard said...

His colleagues got him in enough hot water he resigned. Sounds like a guy who liked rubbing everyone the wrong way.

And this is one thing fascists do not tolerate.

Young or old you will conform.

Of course this only applies to white men or people who think incorrect things.

FullMoon said...

"Ms. Shepherd said she thought the word was inappropriate but hardly the worst thing that happened on the trip,"

Seems to me that she said it was no big deal. I would assume less important than having a bad meal or not getting a good nights sleep.

Others might spin it as her saying many terrible things happened.

mccullough said...

“This is the thing with these liberal institutions like Andover — they teach you the world should be like this but that’s not how reality is,” she recalled him telling her.

Her parents got their money’s worth.

Achilles said...

Howard said...

It's a self-critical article in the Times about office politics. The kids involvement was between tangential and orthogonal. It's really about the overly woke nature of the staff and the back-stabbing and infighting that's going on now.

Achilles and his enablers are just a stupid mean jealous helpless pathetic gang of Qanon meat puppets who drool every-time a libtard takes a dump.


This is Howard's justification for censorship.

Well thought out stuff.

chuck said...

Tell me what she did that you consider "Nazi."

Let's just say she is an idealistic kid. Pretty much the same impression I got of the aging Nazis I met in Germany back in the 60's, they had been idealistic kids. Idealism, like acne, is a developmental stage of life. Some folks get over it and develop a healthy cynicism as they age.

Ken B said...

I think this is related, but YMMV. A Heath Inspector closes a business (erroneously) and seconds later does a little dance.
https://twitter.com/stevengregory/status/1361421294508544001

No, not a grumpy old man.

Inga said...

“Achilles and his enablers are just a stupid mean jealous helpless pathetic gang of Qanon meat puppets who drool every-time a libtard takes a dump.”

Good observation.

Yancey Ward said...

As I wrote a few days ago, I no longer take McNeil's side here- even his own letter describing the event makes him look very awful in trying to parse the sin of a 12 year old who said the-word-that-cannot-be-said.

However, this girl is awful, too, as is Ben Smith for continuing to write about this. What kind of person shows their damned diary to a reporter in this instance? These people are just awful all around, and I wouldn't want to spend any time at all with any of them. Cancel all of them for all I care.

rcocean said...

Inga's sudden appearance makes me suspect something I've often suspected.

n.n said...

Context doesn't matter. Magnitude amplification can be simulated through repetition. albeit with progressive false positives. History evolves (i.e. chaotic process) with liberal, notably generational, sensibilities. Repentance will not be tolerated. Social contagion is spread through JournoLism, social dictatorships, and steering engines. Abort... cancel the bastard, cannibalize his profitable parts, and sequester his carbon pollutants.

tim in vermont said...

Let’s refer to noted fascism expert Benito Mussolini on what fascism is:

No action is exempt from moral judgment; no activity can be stripped of the value which a moral purpose confers on all things.

Sounds like woke to me. Sounds like how the woke treat the least deviation from the woke

Anti-individualistic, the Fascist conception of life stresses the importance of the State and accepts the individual only in so far as his interests coincide with those of the State, which stands for the conscience and the universal, will of man as a historic entity. It is opposed to classical liberalism[<<-- Free Market Economics, not “liberalism” as we now use the term since the liberals stole it]

Sounds kinda like what people who think that anybody who disagrees with them should not be allowed to speak might say...

is it the State which creates the nation, conferring volition and therefore real life on a people made aware of their moral unity.

Moral unity! Deviate from it at your peril!

Fascism is therefore opposed to that form of democracy which equates a nation to the majority, lowering it to the level of the largest number; but it is the purest form of democracy if the nation be considered as it should be from the point of view of quality rather than quantity, as an idea, the mightiest because the most ethical, the most coherent, the truest, expressing itself in a people as the conscience and will of the few, if not, indeed, of one, and ending to express itself in the conscience and the will of the mass,

Unify behind the purity of the moral judgement of the few who will impose their moral judgement on the mass of men through the combined power of the government and corporations which serve the will of that government!

Unity!

This is why a guy who utters a word in South America must be crushed.

But please lecture us on what is and is not fascism those of you who have never looked at the original documents;

https://www.sjsu.edu/people/cynthia.rostankowski/courses/HUM2BS14/s0/The-Doctrine-of-Fascism.pdf

Rory said...

"...she's far more polite and considerate of him than we Boomers were to our elders in the 60s."

Possibly the lowest limbo bar ever set.

iowan2 said...

When are people going to start bringing civil suit for being denied the ability to earn a living? What ever Mc Neil did, it falls far short of a firing offense. He has a long employment history. That must count for something.
If I were on the trip I could see myself making a game of challenging every single assumption the students uttered. Isn't that the purpose? I did that to my children. It was part of the rearing proccess, Challenging their assumptions, Making them defend what they think and why. What core values brings you to where you are at.
The very academic debate about the language is perenial. "Bad" words vs free speech. Free speech is there to protect the most obnoxious speech. If it were not, the ammendment isn't needed. I had some real winners as teachers when I was in highschool. I didn't often challenge them. I talked to my parents about their views, and I learned from my parents...not teachers.
Forming your world view from teachers is going to mess you up.
But back to making a living. When is this going to end? Iowa Hawkeye Strength Coach Chris Doyle resigned last summer because the riots caused 50 people to write a letter complaining about him verbally challenging Blacks, more than non-blacks. Tough charge to rebut. But last week he got hired by Jacksonville Jaguars...for 30 hours then "let go" This guy is one of the best in the nation, and now he can't work. Doesn't the constitution protect your ability to earn a living?

Achilles said...

mccullough said...

“This is the thing with these liberal institutions like Andover — they teach you the world should be like this but that’s not how reality is,” she recalled him telling her.

Her parents got their money’s worth.

She is in an Ivy league school.

Graduation rates are ~99%.

She will get a good job probably in government or around K-Street.

She will never have to produce a single thing of value that anyone wants, but she will be in the top 10% of income earners just by existing.

Her parents will never have to speak to her in any sort of mentally engaging discussion or take care of her despite her most likely complete lack of value to society.

They got their money's worth.

WWIII Joe Biden, Husk-Puppet + America's Putin said...

Considering none of us are followers of Q-anan - it is apt for Russia Russia I-nag and her troll side-kick to say so.

NCMoss said...

It's as if we've given up on free speech being an important principle that applies to all; this seems to be all about acceptable and non-acceptable motivations.

GOM #1928374

Unknown said...

"The book has drawn criticism for a deterministic view that seems to absolve colonial powers of responsibility for their choices ..." -- Not the way I read the book. He was trying to explain how the colonial power were able to do what they did, not to justify it.

Ice Nine said...

>>Ann Althouse said...
Speaking of grumpy old men, are any of you commenters grumpy old men? I'm thinking yes.<<

We come here for the grumpy old women.

n.n said...

“This is the thing with these liberal institutions like Andover — they teach you the world should be like this but that’s not how reality is,” she recalled him telling her.

There's the problem. Liberalism is a philosophy of divergence, which is often mistaken for tolerance, "open mindedness", brayed with a positive denotation, and conjured with positive connotations.

Inga said...

McNeil sounded like an aggressive jackass and why shouldn’t the young people on the trip complain about him? They should just shut up and stay quiet about it because...why? I suspect the NYTs was already sick and tired of this jerk and it gave them a good excuse to get rid of him.

Sebastian said...

Oh, and by the way --

No, this Sophie Shepherd is not the main issue here, and no, I don't want her canceled, and no, I don't think McNeil is an upstanding character.

I keep having this feeling that if Sophie and Don were in a position to cancel some of us troglodytes, they'd do it in a heartbeat.

And here comes Althouse: It's so unfair to think that! She comes across as a very nice girl! I want evidence! McNeil was a great reporter! And it's so unfair to think that! It's terrible!

Howard said...

Achilles: Just stop inventing bullshit out of thin air. I'm not justifying anything you fucking paranoid hatemonger. The article isn't about the kids like you thought, asswipe. I offer no opinion on the firing, although like someone else pointed out, McNeil sounds like he was always relegated to backwaters because he lacks people skilz, which was likely contributory to his resignation under cloud of perceived racism.

And the Times at least has the decency to examine this situation that may be a problem for them. A smidge of self awareness goes a long way. You should try it sometimes rather then telling us what you want ad infinitum.

Please note: the use of offensive language is just a reflection of Achilles posting style and doesn't actually reflect my true feelings. It is, in a way using his language to communicate more effectively with him down at his level.

n.n said...

Considering none of us are followers of Q-anan - it is apt for Russia Russia I-nag and her troll side-kick to say so.

Q, Who?

Bugaboo!

Fernandinande said...

She got him fired.

McNeil resigned, he wasn't fired.

Wapoo sez: “Right out of the bat he was denigrating the medical traditions of Peru,” one student told The Post. Another described McNeil’s interaction with a local shaman as disrespectful and “cringeworthy.”

Sailer responded: "It’s almost as if the public health reporter for the Science section of the New York Times doesn’t believe in the healing power of shamanism."

Readering said...

Rocean, my aunts and uncles in the seventies used that word along with the other c word, and they definitely knew what they were doing. I loved them and as a teen never called them out, nor did my parents, but it grated.

n.n said...

Wait a second. The m-word? I though it was deemed politically incongruent, then cancelled, and replaced with the e-word.

Amadeus 48 said...

The NYT is a very dysfunctional institution that has way too much cultural sway. Too many of my friends think it is a must-read and let it determine their view of news and cultural events.

I question the current editor’s competence, but that has been true for many of his predecessors. The history of the paper is interesting ( it was an early flier taken by JP Morgan himself) but The current controlling ownership (the Sulzburgers and Carlos Slim) leave a lot to be desired.

This is a sorry story. McNeil wasn’t the right guy for the trip. He probably thought it was a boondoggle. No one looks good here, but the adults should know better.

Always think for yourself.

DavidUW said...

Rich white girl (inherited) ruining old rich white guy (who mostly earned it I think).

Not because she can’t understand the difference between mention/use. But because she wanted to.

She’s a evil bitch and reason one million+ why why women are the worst.

iowan2 said...

Exactly. That’s why he reminded me of Shouting Thomas.

Why dont you just comment on the posting and forget the personal insults?

Rabel said...

“You correct them, you tell them, ‘You’re not supposed to talk like that,’ and usually people are pretty apologetic and responsive to being corrected. And he was not.”

I'm trying to imagine the reaction if a freshman law student (much less a snot-nosed rich kid) told Professor Althouse that a word she used properly in context in her classroom was insensitive and she shouldn't talk like that with the expectation that the Professor must change her behavior to suit the youngster.

Apologetic and responsive?

Amadeus 48 said...

Inga—you have a head of steam going. None of us know any of these people. The NYT senior management thought enough of McNeil so they tried to smooth it all over. The younger staff in the newsroom wanted justice!

Achilles said...

Howard said...

Achilles: Just stop inventing bullshit out of thin air. I'm not justifying anything you fucking paranoid hatemonger. The article isn't about the kids like you thought, asswipe. I offer no opinion on the firing, although like someone else pointed out, McNeil sounds like he was always relegated to backwaters because he lacks people skilz, which was likely contributory to his resignation under cloud of perceived racism.

Your side has been supporting censorship and using violence to achieve that end for decades Howard.

This is just one more page.

And the Times at least has the decency to examine this situation that may be a problem for them. A smidge of self awareness goes a long way. You should try it sometimes rather then telling us what you want ad infinitum.

The Times is a news organization that supports the censorship of competing news organizations. They have lied repeatedly over the last 100 years. They have a long history and won many Pulitzers supporting State censorship and murder.

I read more Times articles than you read anything I would consider honest. I have a much wider information pool that you do. You are the one living in a bubble idiot.

Please note: the use of offensive language is just a reflection of Achilles posting style and doesn't actually reflect my true feelings. It is, in a way using his language to communicate more effectively with him down at his level.

You are a fascist Howard. I just point that out.

You support censorship.

You support fake evidence at trial.

You support spying on political opponents.

You support destroying people's lives for using unapproved words.

You can't hang at my level. You aren't even within 2 standard deviations of my level. Probably more like 3 or 4. You are just not that smart Howard.

Rabel said...

"He just wanted a free trip to Machu Picchu for crying out loud."

There excursions are profit makers for the Times. I'm sure the racist was paid for his efforts.

Rick said...

Her:

“You correct them, you tell them, ‘You’re not supposed to talk like that,’ and usually people are pretty apologetic and responsive to being corrected.

Althouse:

"She doesn't even sound as though she was impudent and self-righteous."

What? Not self-righteous?

Mrs. X said...

“their voices getting louder and attracting the attention of other students, two of whom confirmed her account of the conversation”

Did only two students overhear or did more overhear and only two confirm? Why didn’t more overhear and why didn’t all confirm?

Chennaul said...

Now I see my suspicion about why the context is being withheld is correct:

New York Times Executive Editor Dean Baquet on Thursday walked back a statement regarding the company’s policy on racial slurs, the latest development in an internal scandal that began after its veteran science reporter Donald G. McNeil Jr. was recently pressured to resign for using the N-word.

In a staff meeting, Baquet said he had gone too far when he declared last week that the paper would not tolerate racist language in the workplace or by employees "regardless of intent,” several people present in the meeting said.

"Of course intent matters when we are talking about language in journalism," Baquet said, calling his earlier declaration ham-handed.

Baquet and Joseph Kahn, the Times' managing editor, made the initial statement about intent in a letter to the staff sent last Friday, in which they wrote, "We do not tolerate racist language regardless of intent."

The meeting on Thursday coincided with the newspaper’s decision, first reported by NBC News, not to publish a column by the conservative opinion columnist Bret Stephens in which he took issue with Baquet's initial claim.

"Do any of us want to live in a world, or work in a field, where intent is categorically ruled out as a mitigating factor? I hope not," Stephens wrote in the unpublished op-ed column, a copy of which was sent to NBC News by a source at the paper.


Stephens had forwarded the column to at least one colleague and blamed the paper's publisher, A.G. Sulzberger, for not publishing it.

"If you're wondering why it wasn't in the paper, it's because AG Sulzberger spiked it," Stephens wrote. Kathleen Kingsbury, the Times Opinion editor, told NBC News it was her decision, in consultation with Sulzberger, not to run the column.

The paper's handling of the McNeil controversy has created new rifts among employees, some of whom believe the paper should have a zero-tolerance policy for any racist statements, and others who believe the Times ignored context and went too far in pressuring McNeil, a 45-year veteran of the paper, to leave.


https://www.nbcnews.com/news/all/new-york-times-editor-walks-back-statement-racial-slurs-n1257482

NCMoss said...

Apparently, what goes on in Machu Picchu doesn't stay in Machu Picchu.

Amadeus 48 said...

Rabel—If Althouse had used the actual n-word in a discussion of Brandenburg vs. Ohio, we’d know, because I guarantee she would have heard about it during office hours and probably she would have gotten a message from the dean.

I will confess that I remember the last time I said the word, specifically quoting someone else. It was 30 years ago. The glacial silence that followed caused me to promise myself that I would not say it again. This issue has been in the culture since the 80s.

Laslo Spatula said...

1960s: Don't trust anyone over thirty.

2021: Don't trust anyone under thirty. Especially those that work at the NYT. Or The WA Post. Or CNN. Or MSNBC. Or use Twitter a lot.

As for the student and reporter in question: the sexual tension is simmering below the surface like a rom-com gone malignant.

I am Laslo.

Ken B said...

Althouse called a snark by Andrea Mitchell “evil”, but insists there was nothing untoward here.

Sally327 said...

The funniest part of this whole story is that it played out in Peru where the average annual income is roughly 1/5 what it costs to go to her prep school for a year and is a place that has little or nothing to do with the state of modern race relations in the US. These people went thousands of miles just to argue over stuff they could talk about back home a dozen times a day. I wonder if there were any locals listening in and what they thought. Not that it would matter. We Americans, we're the center of everyone's universe.

Rick O'Vista said...

Enjoying the decline.

FullMoon said...

Mrs. X said...

“their voices getting louder and attracting the attention of other students, two of whom confirmed her account of the conversation”

Did only two students overhear or did more overhear and only two confirm? Why didn’t more overhear and why didn’t all confirm?

2/15/21, 5:09 PM


Good catch. All the others disagreed.

Ken B said...

Rick
Indeed. I pointed that out. Althouse's reply seems to be that since she bolded the quote it’s absolved of any self righteousness. That’s as much sense as I can get from her reply to me when I pointed it out.

FullMoon said...

iowan2 said...

Exactly. That’s why he reminded me of Shouting Thomas.

Why dont you just comment on the posting and forget the personal insults?

2/15/21, 5:01 PM


She is not insulting ST. She is flirting with him. Goes back years,

WWIII Joe Biden, Husk-Puppet + America's Putin said...

Rabel
free trip plus pay.
Pay + Per Diem meals. That's a sweet gig. too bad about the diary... and the n-word. and getting fired, or asked to resign.

hairs need splitting in the twilight zone.

Rick said...

1. But Ms. Shepherd hadn’t really connected with the others on the trip either, so she kept seeking him out

2. On the walk over, she said, she talked about her favorite class at Andover, a history of American education that covered racial discrimination.

3. She asked him, she recalled, about the criticism of the book.

4. she said she sat down the table from Mr. McNeil at a cafe overlooking the town’s narrow streets, where he was talking to another student when he uttered the N-word,

Interesting.

A. So she continually sought him out.
B. All her objections were based on subjects she or another student introduced, nothing was based on discussions of the trip's substance.
C. She made notes of all his woke violations.

It sure looks like she understands her role as Red Guard.

FullMoon said...


Blogger Rick said...

Her:

“You correct them, you tell them, ‘You’re not supposed to talk like that,’ and usually people are pretty apologetic and responsive to being corrected.


Was another student who said that, not her.

Rabel said...

"...I guarantee she would have heard about it during office hours and probably she would have gotten a message from the dean."

My point, if not clear, was about Althouse's reaction. But to your point, just a guess, but I suspect the Dean and the colleagues were as intimidated by her as some of the people here.

And that's not entirely a bad thing.

Ken B said...

Sally
Good observation. They are on a posh resume building jaunt in a foreign country, seemingly unaware. And it’s their job to “correct” the science writer.

FullMoon said...

Interesting.

A. So she continually sought him out.
B. All her objections were based on subjects she or another student introduced, nothing was based on discussions of the trip's substance.
C. She made notes of all his woke violations.

It sure looks like she understands her role as Red Guard.

2/15/21, 5:23 PM


Seems like she was trying to get laid, upset at lack of success.

Paul said...

Do people realize Carl Marx and all the Communist 'founders' were sons and daughters of the rich? I.E. rich spoiled kids.


People who worked their ass off to become the middle class or more are not leftest... it's mostly the rich white kids who never really had to work a day in their lives.

WWIII Joe Biden, Husk-Puppet + America's Putin said...

Tim 4:46 - great post.

However, your post is a how-to for the staff at the NYT.

Michael K said...

This whole post has been comedy gold. Thanks.

max said...

Ann,

I think you may be conflating cancelation with criticism. You can criticize someone, you can even advocate cancellation, but you cannot cancel someone unless you have power over another. In the present case that was the New York Times. Was the firing a cancellation? Given that the incident occurred in 2019. It had already been adjudicated and was not considered a firing offense, something had to have changed. That change was the outrage of some in the newsroom. Because of that outrage McNeil was fired. That sounds like cancellation to me. The Times took an action that was not based upon the contribution of McNeil to the paper nor was it based on the conduct of McNeil, it was based on satisfying a mob in the newsroom. The Times essentially ceded its power to the mob.

I have not read carefully each and every comment to this post. I saw a lot of criticism. I do not recall seeing anyone that said she should be denied entry to a college or the possibility of employment. In fact I think your sympathy is misplaced. I think the young lady's chances at acceptance at Harvard would be enhanced by her conduct.

Ken B said...

Found on Twitter
“ I see we're now at the stage of counting Phillips Andover kids as among the world's oppressed and marginalized. ”

Robert Cook said...

"Fascist is thrown around here against people perceived to be on the left like it was by anti-war folks at the height of the Viet Nam War."

Except the anti-war folks were throwing around the term at people perceived to be (and who were) on the right.

Ken B said...

Max
Good point but to be fair Yancey Ward expressed a willingness to see her cancelled.

Yancey Ward said...

One gets the impression that the n-word was just the excuse given for getting rid of McNeil. If it hadn't been that, it would have been something else, like, for example, the more worse things Shepherd told Smith about that McNeil had said and described in her diary. Don't you suspect that it is McNeil's attitude about today's racism that got him canned.

Put yourself in Shepherd's shoes- you had a debate disagreement with a chaperone on a high school trip, and a reporter came to you asking about it later- what would you do in that case? I can tell what my response would be- I would have told the reporter it was none of his business, and if I knew the guy was getting fired for over it because someone else was making a big deal about it, I would have to come to his defense even if I didn't like him. Now, I don't want to cancel Ms. Shepherd- she is still young and may eventually develop the maturity to understand what she did wrong here- but she is in the wrong here in even talking to Smith for this article.

Ken B said...

Found on Twitter “ Hey anyone up for going with
@tomfriedman
to Peru?“

stevew said...

Mrs. stevew grew up in Andover, graduated from Andover High, not Phillips. When we were first married we rented an apartment in an old Victorian just down the hill from the school. We saw those kids all the time, every day, as they walked into and out of the town center. Oppressed and marginalized are not words you would use to describe them. The few I encountered were pleasant and respectful. So there's that.

Ken B said...

Stevew
The very first rule of the upper class is to be polite to inferiors.

wild chicken said...

Sounds like McNeil had already had a few go-rounds with Times staff before the excursion.

When I was young I loved irascible opinionated old guys. They made me laugh then but now I think they were more cogent than I realized at the time.

Ken B said...

The most important thing to notice is that the worst person in this, as so often, is Fernandistein, bleating about “he resigned”

An apt response to that
https://twitter.com/AliceFromQueens/status/1361387121437773824

stevew said...

Thinking on this a bit more I would say that this girl that complained about McNeil didn't get him fired. She voiced her complaint and her concerns, I see no effort to have him terminated from his job. The NYT fired him. A cowardly act. If you want to be mad at someone, focus on the Times people that took McNeil's job away.

Not blaming the victim but why did McNeil go on this trip?

Yancey Ward said...

Snitch is the right word here for Shepherd and all the other students who complained about this. There are worse words to use, though, for Baquet and the NYTimes' management and ownership.

Achilles said...

max said...

I have not read carefully each and every comment to this post. I saw a lot of criticism. I do not recall seeing anyone that said she should be denied entry to a college or the possibility of employment. In fact I think your sympathy is misplaced. I think the young lady's chances at acceptance at Harvard would be enhanced by her conduct.

This depends.

In a free society she should just be criticized for being a part of a machine that crushes freedom and lives and discourse. She should then be free to seek employment and produce things people want.

But the nature of government is that it creates jobs that would put her in charge of some aspect of my life.

It is this aspect of government is that draws little fascists with no other useful skills like this young woman to seek positions where they have the power to enforce their little tyrant wills on other people's lives.

If she surprises everyone and goes out and becomes a successful entrepreneur or works at some company producing something people want more power to her.

But the most likely path is she ends up in some bureaucracy or in HR and spends her life terrorizing productive decent people.

Martha said...

This kerfluffle reminds me of the 2015 Christakis affair at Yale when a fight over the cultural implications of Halloween costumes devolved into an effort to censor dissenting views. I was shocked then at the manner in which Yale students verbally dressed down Professor Christakis, a graduate of Harvard Medical School with a PhD from the University of Pennsylvania, and the Sterling Professor of Social and Natural Science at Yale University, where he directs the Human Nature Lab.

Professor Christakis stood speechless as students screamed and shook their fists at him. Not one of them was held responsible for the incivility.. The professor and his wife, co-master of Yale’s Silliman College, had made them feel unsafe by suggesting they need not be overly concerned about cultural appropriation when they chose their Halloween costumes.

stevew said...

Fair enough Ken B, but I would tell you that there is no shortage of very wealthy and powerful people in Andover, MA.

Tom T. said...

I'm surprised that Ann is so determined to approach this story from a posture of such aggressive naivete. There's zero likelihood that a reporter from the New York Times said "racism is over." I guarantee you that he said something considerably more nuanced about the way race relations changed over the past 50 years. The girl had never been taught about race in anything but the simplest good vs. evil narrative, so she had no tools to interpret what he was saying except to oversimplify it and place it in the "evil" category. Her diary adds nothing to her reliability, because all she was doing was recording her own lack of understanding.

Goldenpause said...

What professional with decades of experience wastes their time getting into “heated arguments” with a 17 year old they barely know on a glorified class trip? While the 17 year old is a jerk, she has an excuse: she’s 17. What’s the reporter’s excuse?

boatbuilder said...

When real, actual (douchey) Nazis wanted to march in Skokie, the real, actual ACLU defended their civil right to do so.

That's the way our formerly proud country dealt with those who spoke things that people really didn't like.

Let them speak, and tell them how wrong they are. It's right there in the very First Article of the Bill of Rights upon which our nation was founded.

Not so much anymore.

I'm old enough to remember when "Silence is violence" was the watchword.

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