Lots of great question at this new Quinnipiac poll. Read the details.
January 12, 2021
"Which comes closer to your point of view: democracy in the United States is alive and well or democracy in the United States is under threat?"
"Do you think that extremism is a big problem in the United States, or don't you think so?... Do you think that - the Republican members of Congress who tried to stop the formal certification of Joe Biden's victory in the 2020 presidential election were undermining democracy or protecting democracy?... Do you think that - the individuals who stormed the U.S. Capitol on January 6th were undermining democracy or protecting democracy?... Do you think that President Trump should resign as president, or don't you think so?... Do you think that President Trump is mentally stable, or not?... Do you consider what happened at the U.S. Capitol on January 6th a coup attempt, or not?... Do you want to see the individuals who stormed the U.S. Capitol on January 6th held accountable for their actions, or not?... Do you hold President Trump responsible for the storming of the U.S. Capitol on January 6th, or not?... Do you think that law enforcement officials did everything they could to prevent the initial storming of the U.S. Capitol on January 6th, or don't you think so?..."
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138 comments:
As usual, the questions were designed to get the responses that they wanted. "Widespread voter fraud" is an easy question to answer no to, "Any voter fraud" is more relevant.
Democracy is under threat from an increasingly radical Democrat left.
The last year is only the beginning.
FBI not interested in Antifa.
That is terrifying.
Buwaya's comments are extremely prescient. Personally, I'm starting to think that there are fewer good days ahead for America than there are behind.
What's broken isn't getting fixed.
Antifa false flagged the maga crowd at the Capitol.
No one in the hack-D press is even slightly curious.
what is your favorite color? what is your name? what is the airspeed velocity of a laden swallow?
Like the first two questions, most of these Quinnipiac questions are about priming the respondent. And Quinnipiac starts with Q. Coincidence?
Biden is corrupt. Pelosi is corrupt. The media is corrupt and one-sided. Big Tech Billionaires are corrupt.
You will be doxxed, blackmailed, and silenced into submission.
Yeah - America is doing great.
I read something last week that said as much as 30% of white women under 25 identify as lgbt. Politics is downstream from culture, and the culture is looking more and more like a power-hungry spiritual-not-religious tattooed Elegabalus wanting universal basic income and reparations to be paid by whites only.
Think Brazil but more piercings.
"As usual, the questions were designed to get the responses that they wanted. "Widespread voter fraud" is an easy question to answer no to, "Any voter fraud" is more relevant."
"Any voter fraud" isn't a useful question. There's always some. No one ought to deny that. The question is whether the outcome that's been certified is the correct outcome, and for that not to be so, you need *widespread* voter fraud. It's the right question to ask.
Under threat.
Trump did not incite. He was irresponsible and bears some moral guilt for his demagoguery.
Obviously not a coup, look the word up. Insurrection might fit though. Certainly a dangerous riot.
Yes, I want them charged. I bet even Big Mike does.
"Lots of great question at this new Quinnipiac poll."
Really? Let's take two:
3. As president, do you think that Joe Biden will be able to unite the country after he takes office, or do you expect partisan divisions to remain the same as they are today?
No option for "do you expect partisan divisions to get worse than they are today?"
Why not?
11. Do you think that President Trump is mentally stable, or not?
No option for "Do you think that President-elect Biden is mentally stable, or not?"
Why not?
"Antifa false flagged the maga crowd at the Capitol.
No one in the hack-D press is even slightly curious."
Maybe you're a false flag. How would we know?
In other words, what is your proof?
3. As president, do you think that Joe Biden will be able to unite the country after he takes office, or do you expect partisan divisions to remain the same as they are today?
Only 31% total evidently believe that Joe Biden will be able to unite, 9%(R)54%(D). At least people's expectations are somewhat realistic. Personally I doubt Biden could unite two refrigerator magnets under the best of circumstances. But in fariness this country is so divided that the only thing hat could unite us would be some sort of catastophe, like another 911 or an alien invasion maybe.
AA: "Any voter fraud" isn't a useful question. There's always some. No one ought to deny that.
———
But many do. I have seen many assertions that vote fraud does not exist. Many.
"Maybe you're a false flag. How would we know?"
You don't even have a visible profile.
"But many do. I have seen many assertions that vote fraud does not exist. Many."
I don't particularly care. It is still not a useful question to ask. Just a chance for some people to be unreasonably stubborn in support of their side.
Which comes closer to your point of view: democracy in the United States is alive and well or democracy in the United States is under threat? Alive and well is closer.
Do you think that extremism is a big problem in the United States, or don't you think so? Yes.
Do you think that - the Republican members of Congress who tried to stop the formal certification of Joe Biden's victory in the 2020 presidential election were undermining democracy or protecting democracy? Undermining.
Do you think that - the individuals who stormed the U.S. Capitol on January 6th were undermining democracy or protecting democracy? Undermining.
Do you think that President Trump should resign as president, or don't you think so?
Yes.
Do you think that President Trump is mentally stable, or not? Not.
Do you consider what happened at the U.S. Capitol on January 6th a coup attempt, or not? Not.
Do you want to see the individuals who stormed the U.S. Capitol on January 6th held accountable for their actions, or not? They should be held accountable but not overcharged or treated too harshly. If we want less violence we should not foolishly create political prisoners.
Do you hold President Trump responsible for the storming of the U.S. Capitol on January 6th, or not? Yes. But for the "stolen election" lie, the riot would not have happened. It was and remains a dangerous lie.
Do you think that law enforcement officials did everything they could to prevent the initial storming of the U.S. Capitol on January 6th, or don't you think so?..." No clue.
I confess that Barnes has convinced me that Quinnipiac is useless :) But my answer to the first posted question is yes, Democracy is under threat. From the Left, of course. I came to that conclusion in the 80's when the Democrats were fear mongering about "right wing" Christianity and I weighed the relative power of the two sides.
My answers:
I don't think extremism is a main problem in the US. I think discussing it adds drama to news programs which sells ad time, so they want it to seem like a big problem. Step away from the news, talk to your neighbors, and you won't find extremism, especially on the right (what's going on in Portland and Seattle is another story).
I think the Senators asking for a select panel to investigate concerns of voter fraud were protecting our democracy. However, they are being portrayed in the news as wanting to simply throw out votes. Listen to their speech on the floor of the Senate, and that wasn't the recommendation made. A poll of this topic is more of who is winning the spin.
I don't think the Capitol prepared for the march. We knew this in advance, when the DC mayor refused additional security outside the Capitol. Video shows very little to no resistance to entry. Resistance of the crowd seemed to begin only after the shooting, and the shooting took place near the Speaker's office. I think an investigation needs to be held as to why protesters were capable of getting that far, and why the use of force was authorized once they got to the Speaker's office. Similar events have occurred in places like Madison, WI without police shootings, and officials didn't call the protesters insurrectionist.
37% of voters thinking there is voter fraud is a problem. It is silly to think that ignoring their concerns as unfounded improves democracy. Silencing that 37% is dangerous. We spent 3 years investigating Russian collusion allegations related to stealing an election. That wasn't seen as an insurrection nor were the perpetrators of that hoax silenced by social media. What is the difference now?
Click our poll.
Voter fraud does not need to be widespread, it only needs to be targeted, which it was. So the question perhaps should have read was there targeted voter fraud.
Timing is everything. This poll was strategically timed to come out at the point of maximum political disinformation and media spin. From this point forward we'll see the glacial flow of confirmable information begin and our view of the events will slowly evolve.
No one ought to deny that
No one ought to deny that the Earth isn't round, but there are flat Earthers. Personally I'd a more granular breakdown re: voter fraud. Something like:
1. No voter fraud happened
2. A negligible amount may have happened
3. A fair amount may have happened, but not enough to change the results
4. Enough fraud occurred to change the results
This is our future.
Ann,
Temujin posted proof. here.
& more here.
Compare footage from Trump rallies to the people who were all over the Capitol.
I suppose if the proof isn't found in the NYT, WaPo, or at CNN - it isn't real?
My profile is private because I am private. I can assure you - I am real.
@Nonapod
"But in fariness this country is so divided that the only thing hat could unite us would be some sort of catastophe, like another 911 or an alien invasion maybe."
We're having a sort of catastrophe right now, and it's further dividing us. It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if another 9/11 caused half the country to cheer.
"As usual, the questions were designed to get the responses that they wanted. "Widespread voter fraud" is an easy question to answer no to, "Any voter fraud" is more relevant. "
Yup. All ~78 potentially invalid votes in the state of Georgia are super relevant to the state of political discourse today (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEYvOTvqlFs&list=PLrcn3SvQujM8o6NyEKwNzabnCYDRWzgTm&index=1&t=265s)
How about the idea that democracy is dangerous and destructive and should be limited by strong republican government?
(pay attention to the lowercase letters people)
"The question is whether the outcome that's been certified is the correct outcome, and for that not to be so, you need *widespread* voter fraud. It's the right question to ask."
Scott Adams disagrees. He's been saying for awhile you don't need 'widespread' fraud. You need fraud in just a few key places. Like Philadelphia, Detroit, Milwaukee… Targeted fraud has the advantages of i) it's efficient, ii) less chance of detection, and iii) you can dismiss your challengers by stating (accurately) "there was no widespread fraud."
I don't think the Capitol prepared for the march. We knew this in advance, when the DC mayor refused additional security outside the Capitol. Video shows very little to no resistance to entry. Resistance of the crowd seemed to begin only after the shooting, and the shooting took place near the Speaker's office.
Excellent points. Steve Hayward has a column suggesting that the Deep State is in a panic since seeing those Capitol police opening the door and waving protestors into the Capitol. Now they worry that the Capitol police might not like them and be willing to see them harassed.
Beyond the security question, this person told me the mob action has been a psychological blow on the DC bureaucracy which didn’t think such an open expression of tangible disrespect for the government was possible. In other words, the capitol mob was a blow to their status, and Washingtonians believe the entire protest represents more than just anger at the election outcome: the disrespectful spirit of the day represents a real threat to their power going forward. This is one reason for the paranoia of Democrats at the moment,
And then, the policeman who died was a Trump supporter.
10:26 I'm not sure.
Indeed.
"No one ought to deny that" said every fake news story meant to influence rather than inform.
No one ought to deny "that".
"But many do. I have seen many assertions that vote fraud does not exist. Many."
I don't particularly care. It is still not a useful question to ask. Just a chance for some people to be unreasonably stubborn in support of their side.
The problem is, the willful refusal to deny that voter fraud exists has worked, and is working, for the Left and the MSM. Until they are forced to concede that the answer is yes, they won't and use their denial to prevent any electoral reform.
Now they worry that the Capitol police might not like them and be willing to see them harassed.
So the people they spent the better part of the past year demonizing might not be willing to go out of their way to prevent their harrassment? I'm shocked!
I agree that "widespread" is the wrong modifier for voting fraud. The threshold for "widespread" is too subjective. "Substantial" or "consequential" would be more relevant to whether the results are correct. "Substantial" is probably better in the context of a poll intended to properly sample the common clay of the American public, to paraphrase Mel Brooks.
Original Mike said...
"The question is whether the outcome that's been certified is the correct outcome, and for that not to be so, you need *widespread* voter fraud. It's the right question to ask."
Scott Adams disagrees. He's been saying for awhile you don't need 'widespread' fraud. You need fraud in just a few key places. Like Philadelphia, Detroit, Milwaukee… Targeted fraud has the advantages of i) it's efficient, ii) less chance of detection, and iii) you can dismiss your challengers by stating (accurately) "there was no widespread fraud."
One doesn't need any fraud at all, widespread or narrow, large or small, to hold an illegal or unconstitutional/illegal election.
You just need to hold it outside the bounds of state election law and/or the Constitution.
Happily, if I storm the Capitol I'm not committing fraud either.
"Any voter fraud" isn't a useful question. There's always some. No one ought to deny that. The question is whether the outcome that's been certified is the correct outcome, and for that not to be so, you need *widespread* voter fraud. It's the right question to ask.
Please expand this idea. How much voter fraud is acceptable? What type of voter fraud is acceptable?
If we had any semblance of a free, independent press that focused on a dispassionate description of the facts, as well as on what is still unclear and unknown, people might have a better basis for forming their opinions.
But since the MSM is now a hive of scum and villainy, we don't.
So now it's the Big Lie, all the way down. Forever.
(or at least until Tim Berners-Lee gets his new version of the 'net up and running, and lives long enough to do so)
https://www.indiatimes.com/technology/news/tim-berners-lee-wants-to-turn-the-internet-on-its-head-and-decentralize-it-once-more-353998.html
Given the -19 situation, mail-in voting seemed rational. Dump it now, before it devolves into online voting where the Jack Dorseys decide outcomes.
AA to me, when I corrected her incorrect claim “I don’t particularly care.”
We have had isomorphic versions of this conversation before. I correct you, you ignore it or shrug it off. And not just me of course.
"But many do. I have seen many assertions that vote fraud does not exist. Many."
Puh-leeze. Use of widespread mail-in ballots without proper safeguards is PER SE "widespread voter fraud".
Sheesh.
"you need *widespread* voter fraud."
Ridiculous. Targeted election fraud is the way to go. As we have seen.
Original Mike is right. You don’t need “widespread” fraud, you need “large scale” fraud. I don’t think that happened either but the point is important because the kind of arguments you can make against “widespread” don’t all apply to large, localized fraud.
The reaction to extremism presents a far greater danger than the extremism itself.
Very narrow fraud, that is fraud in only a few precincts, could change the election outcome. It need not be widespread in order to change the outcome. You could probably do that with, oh, say 4-5 cities in 3-4 states in an otherwise fraud-free election.
Ridiculous. Targeted election fraud is the way to go. As we have seen.
I have just received the following wire from my generous daddy: "Dear Jack – Don’t buy a single vote more than necessary – I’ll be damned if I am going to pay for a landslide."
Profiles are like facebook. "Look at me!"
No thanks.
Ann Althouse said...The question is whether the outcome that's been certified is the correct outcome, and for that not to be so, you need *widespread* voter fraud. It's the right question to ask.
When the vote is close, no widespread fraud is needed to change the outcome. In this case, the Democratic machines of 4 cities are accused of generating enough votes to flip their states. And that is enough to flip the country.
"Widespread fraud" has been used as a dodge to avoid looking at the fraud that exists, when something much less than widespread would be good enough to get the job done.
Gahrie said...How much voter fraud is acceptable? What type of voter fraud is acceptable?
No voter fraud is acceptable, all voter fraud should be prosecuted. But only voter fraud capable of changing the outcome should delay certification of the results.
Democracy is not under threat from horn-helmeted yahoos even if some become violent.
Democracy is under threat from institutions colluding with activist government officials to create bureaucratic law never passed by congress or considered by the public.
Analyzing polls is one of the most useless things to waste time on, IMHO.
I had a phonechat last night with my former colleague, now at USMA. He can't wait to see Trump go, and even pursued, but he's not under any illusions about the Ds; we agreed that what is readily viewable online from the Capitol intrusion shows mostly a rowdy crowd with some malcontents, surprised to be inside, and even--for a while at least--staying between the ropelines! Some insurrection.
Static Ping put it well, and I've been telling everyone I know the same--this is what happens in big corrupt imperial centers (and they all become corrupt).
That a senile hack and a vicious ho are now at the top of the pigpile is almost too perfect an ending.
Narr
NPR is lying nonstop
"Timing is everything. This poll was strategically timed to come out at the point of maximum political disinformation and media spin. From this point forward we'll see the glacial flow of confirmable information begin and our view of the events will slowly evolve."
Bingo. And so obvious I'm surprised Althouse even thinks it's worth discussing.
"Lots of great question at this new Quinnipiac poll."
Really? Let's take another one:
5. Do you think that extremism is a big problem in the United States, or don't you think so?
I didn't see any definition of "extremism" provided on the poll linked to. How can any sort of useful conclusion to the response be arrived at unless everybody that's responding thinks "extremism" means the same thing?
Leland said...
My answers:
I don't think extremism is a main problem in the US. I think discussing it adds drama to news programs which sells ad time, so they want it to seem like a big problem.
Matt Taibbi had a piece out along similar lines yesterday.
We Need a New Media System
@PM
"Given the -19 situation, mail-in voting seemed rational. Dump it now, before it devolves into online voting where the Jack Dorseys decide outcomes."
Nope. It "works" now. They're saving online voting for when that stops working.
Puh-leeze. Use of widespread mail-in ballots without proper safeguards is PER SE "widespread voter fraud".
Do not forget the propaganda about Trump hampering the postal system so mail in ballots would be delayed.
An obvious prepaid excuse for Biden losing.
The United Sates Republic is dead. Killed by a false believe in Democracy, which as Aristotle warned quickly turned to totalitarianism.
It was under threat in during the Russian Hoax and then ramped up March 2020.
When you can get a retired law professor to broadcast her disinterest in election fraud coordinated and perpetuated in her own back yard, it's dead. There are pensions that were "earned" and need to be protected at all cost.
Blog comments are like FB: listen to me!
Wasn't it proven in 2016 that highly targeted fraud was enough? Wasn't that what the evil genius Putin used to seat Trump?
But that was before 2020, which will go down in the history books as the Immaculate Election.
Narr
Kiss my profile
Gahrie said...How much voter fraud is acceptable? What type of voter fraud is acceptable?
Well we saw that illegal ballot harvesting in the park, and destruction of any type of chain of custody is perfectly legitimate in Madison, Wisconsin. But thy would bitch and moan and cry oppression if the same was done at the Sussex, WI Village Park (which it wasn't, we play BY the rules).
It's not so much about what type of voter fraud is acceptable, it's more about WHERE it is acceptable. That's where it is achievable.
AA these are your people.
Well I don't believe in either way. It will get corrected over time. Elections don't go away they just mark their time until the next one - 2022. But the Dems have really killed themselves with the 2nd Impeachment attempt of President Trump. They have let loose "...the Kraken.." as they say. I bet my grandkids that Biden will get the same treatment. The DC crowd of politicians, in their thirst for more power, have lost all common sense. Traditions have been swept aside because of the hunger for power. The Dems will see what happens when they take power. BTW, thanks former Senator Reid for the 'nuclear option'. Such nonsense begets a backlash the like of which our Republic hasn't experienced in a over 100 years.
Obvious point many have missed: even if you think there is evidence of fraud there is no evidence that Trump won. None. It’s possible for there to be fraud and for it not to change the outcome.
We have had isomorphic versions of this conversation before. I correct you, you ignore it or shrug it off. And not just me of course.
The first rule of the Althouse blog: Althouse is never wrong, and never makes a mistake.
Re widespread voter fraud, a sincere question. Was the 89% voter turnout in Wiconsin legit? I've never heard of turnout numbers like that in the US before, though of course there have been countries that make voting mandatory.
Assuming 89% is legit...
What is it about Wisconsin that produced such an exceptionally high level of public participation?
The question is whether the outcome that's been certified is the correct outcome, and for that not to be so, you need *widespread* voter fraud. It's the right question to ask.
I disagree. "Widespread voter fraud" is (handily) undefined, but serves to prime the respondent to answer "no" since obviously in some places there was no significant fraud (such as FL, I gather): election results were more or less within historical statistical limits.
The correct question could have been, "Was there [/Do you believe there was] significant fraud" or "Was there targeted fraud" or "Was there sufficient fraud to affect the election outcome in any state? In a battleground state?" A useful follow-up question could have been, "If yes, is the evidence of such fraud primarily statistical, primarily physical (such as recovered ballots with unusual markings or lack of folds), primarily in the form of sworn statements by witnesses, or a combination of these?"
That might make for an interesting poll.
@AA
"In other words, what is your proof?"
You're too smart for that retort.
There have been allegations of Antifa folks at the capitol.
It could be a 'conspiracy theory,' but it's also a tried and true tactic to engage in false flag activities to discredit your political opponent.
I think what Bidenfamily... is saying is, why is the media not investigating the possibility?
Antifa, contrary to popular opinion, is organized on some level. There are videos from this summer showing their leaders using the same crowd control tactics, using walkie-talkies for communications, etc.
If they hadn't at least discussed the idea of a false-flag operation then they would be negligent. They're crazy but not stupid.
Just because it hasn't been proven in a court of law doesn't mean it's not true.
I'm not saying it is true...I don't know any more than you do. But I'd like someone to find out more and report it, as I'm locked down in my house 3,000 mile away.
Btw, you should check out Andy Ngo's Twitter feed once in a while to see what's really happening on the ground.
He gets right in the middle of it. His latest shows Antifa members at a march in San Diego, dressed all in black, carrying signs that say 'Ashli Babbitt Deserved It.'
https://twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1348427975063175176
This is the fascist wing of a major political party inciting violence in major American cities as we speak. Crickets.
This should scare you.
Hey think about it...
https://twitter.com/i/status/1349023335628288006
Barr said mail in voting was not secure well before the vote. Trump said the same. Nadler got Clinton to commute Susan Rosenberg's sentence for BOMBING the capitol. She's the chief fundraiser for BLM. So Clinton Nadler Rosenberg BLM = Weatherman democrat wing? How about we add up B Obama Ayers Sr. (Annenberg Project cold hire), Moochelle hired By Chicago University - no show job $200k/year, (Ayers Sr again). Bill Ayers finishes Barry's Dreams biography from down the block. Bill Ayers' house party launches B Obama's political career. Seems a lot of Bombing Weathermen @ highest levels of the democrat party to me. And Trump was, at one time, walking among them, soakin it up. Change my mind.
So did Roberts get his Grindr account back yet?
"So did Roberts get his Grindr account back yet?"
Doesn't matter as long as Barack and Lyndsey still have theirs.
Hey Unknown, this fact check purports to debunk that 89% number. And it does establish that comparing 89% to 67% from 2016 is probably a mistake. But the piece does not address the question of what percentage of people in WI registered on Election Day this year, or compare that to previous years or to the overall turnout numbers. When you do that, it sort of un-debunks the main point that something fishy happened in WI.
Re widespread voter fraud, a sincere question. Was the 89% voter turnout in Wiconsin legit?
Total Votes: 3,297,352
Voting Age Population4,536,417
Math: 3,297,352/4,536,417 * 100% = 72.7%
Voter turnout in Wisconsin was actually lower this year than in 2004 (73.74%).
Yeah, so DD Driver got there before I did. But DD Driver why did WI see such an unprecedented low turnout of registered voters on Election Day 2020, at the same time that it saw it's highest voter participation rate since 2004? Why this strange trend even with widespread mail-in voting? Why did so many people, such a large portion of those who voted, register on Election Day? And why did so many more of them vote against Trump, apparently, than what we saw in terms of Election Day turnout?
btw-
My experience with on-line stalking - goes way back.
I updated and posted by profile for a few moments. I cannot do it.
I feel really uncomfortable. Based on past experience with obsessives and stalkers.
and now - the leftwing doxxing psychos.
"and now - the leftwing doxxing psychos."
I'm with you. In fact, the way things are going, I will probably be out of here soon.
I am increasingly uncomfortable with Google and gmail. Will start looking for alternatives.
protonmail is hosted in Switzerland and they love saying fuck off to Americans and Europeans inquiring about goings-on within Switzerland.
Here would be an interesting poll question:
Do you support President Trump’s effort on January 6 to prevent counting electors certified by the states of Arizona, Georgia, Michigan, Nevada, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin?
Unknown said..."Re widespread voter fraud, a sincere question. Was the 89% voter turnout in Wiconsin legit?"
Short answer, yes. 89% was of registered voters, in line with previous years. Comparison of Wisconsin voter turnout as a percentage of the voting age population in recent elections:
2020 — 72.3%, 2016 — 67.3%, 2012 — 70.4%, 2008 — 69.2%, 2004 — 72.9%, 2000 — 67%
Having said that, the numbers also do not in any way DISPROVE election fraud. As Gusty alluded to above, the real fraud in Wisconsin was in non-enforcement of election laws allowing for ballot harvesting in Dem strongholds, unverified "indefinitely incapacitated" ballot registration, and acceptance (and curing) of incomplete absentee ballots (along with the usual Dem absentee ballot fraud from colleges and nursing homes, etc.)
"Ken B said...
Yes, I want them charged."
Hey Canuck boy. No one cares what you want.
Joe Smith -
yep. #metoo.
I agree the question of voter fraud was set up to get a certain misleading result. If I were asked if there was widespread fraud which affected the election result I would say no, but there was massive fraud in key targeted Democrat controlled areas which threw the election to Biden. No one in positions of authority, courts, secretaries of state, etc., wanted to address it and there was no access permitted to the ballots to confirm the fraud. Even though the materials are supposed to be stored for 22 months, ballots are being shredded in Georgia and elsewhere.
So the poll has determined that the media has been effective in framing people's perception that the claim of fraud has no merit. Congratulations main stream media.
How many people have heard of or read Peter Navarro's report? How many people have read the 2005 report warning of voter fraud with mail in ballots? How many people understand the details of why candidates focus on certain states and how certain counties determine the election results? How many people understand that there doesn't have to be widespread fraud, just in certain key places?
I suspect that Ann has not given serious consideration to voter fraud or Peter Navarro's report. That's not being neutral, that's being disinterested. Frankly it's a lot easier to not care who won. But that's her stated bias, she wants calm and doesn't care who won the election. Biden is better than nothing.
Here's some alternative questions regarding the state of our democracy:
Ask people if they think they are getting full and unbiased reporting from their news media?
Do they attempt to get a fuller view of other points of view by checking out other news sources?
Ask people if the Capitol security was insufficient and should Trump be held accountable because a very small percentage of his supporters breached the Capitol? Will Biden be held to the same standard? Have Democrats been held to the same standard who advocated for riots?
If there was in fact targeted massive fraud should someone act to correct it or just let it go? (That would be an interesting question.)
IMO it's turned out that with the control of our media and its manipulation of the populace it would have been better to just let the fraud go unchallenged.
Finally, one of the interesting things I noticed in the poll numbers was how different the Black vs. White answers were. Who should we listen to? If you have a minority opinion does that mean your opinion is worthless or wrong?
Hey when do the Bills of Attainder and Ex Post Facto laws start rolling out of congress? There are Deplorables that need to be punished and removed from Jennifer Rubin's polite society.
I think we all know equal protection under the law is out the window. Why stop there?
It wasn't under threat during the Trump administration no matter how much the resistance claimed it was. Is it threatened now? Not at the local and state level. But at the National level, it's not just threatened, it's currently dead. We now live in an aristocracy of venal elites.
"even if you think there is evidence of fraud there is no evidence that Trump won."
You need a dictionary. A paper one.
"In other words, what is your proof?"
If the Reichstag or the Capitol are burned, you will not find out who really did it before Krystalnocht occurs, so you have to act on other information.
Do you consider what happened at the U.S. Capitol on January 6th a coup attempt, or not?
Yes (assuming you mean certifying the obviously fraudulent results from Georgia, Pennsylvania, etc. I hope the poll's questions were more clear (and less leading than those listed in the post).
I listen to what people say, The Democratic party leadership says to defund the police that protect me. They also are worried that there is not enough security at the Capitol to protect them. This is like anti-gun celebrities with armed bodyguards.
"Widespread voter fraud" is an easy question to answer no to, "Any voter fraud" is more relevant.
Targeted voter fraud, once the needed number of votes had already been determined - BINGO!
Althouse said..."I don't particularly care. It is still not a useful question to ask. Just a chance for some people to be unreasonably stubborn in support of their side."
Althouse knows it is all illegitimate. Dishonest doesn’t equal stupid. It’s just lawyerly. But she’s been walking a tight rope in Madison for years, allowing the commenters here to roam mostly free. Madison tolerates it, but there is only so far she can go. Notice the cruel neutrality is fading post-"election".
At this point she knows any questioning of the election’s validity will lead to cultural cancellation in America’s #1 place to retire. No one is immune from fear. It’s not cowardly. I wouldn’t call a Juden hiding underneath a floor board a coward. Ann’s survival instinct is overriding her ability to express her cruelly neutral thoughts publicly. I don’t believe her. Not one bit. She’s never wrong. Like all lawyers.
Or worse, perhaps the goal is to shine a light on deplorable Wisconsinites to reinforce Madison’s superiority complex. I’d imagine it would make a Madisonian quite popular at the obedience mask-querade balls. Who knows? Maybe we’re all just here for the entertainment of her friends that like to use the FB laugh emoji as “you’re beneath me, and not worth debating”. On this thread Ann’s responses seem to have the same type of flavor. If you notice, not many Madison residents identify and jump in Thunderdome here. It’s beneath them.
But you know they read it. It brings in traffic, and $$$$ for Meadehouse.
Q for Professora
is Quinnipiac cruelly neutral in its formulation of what to ask?
if not why not and explain please how to discern.
Quinnipiac was one of the Democrat 'approved' propaganda 'pollsters' what allowed for the DNC primary farce...and the general election farce, no?
I would love to have a rally with my fellow "somewhats" but we are such a small group and the way things are going we are all likely to be excluded from social media for defying the current orthodoxies.
"Any voter fraud" isn't a useful question.
agree
There's always some.
Facts not in evidence
No one ought to deny that.
The question is whether the outcome that's been certified is the correct outcome, and for that not to be so, you need *widespread* voter fraud. It's the right question to ask.
NO!! the right question is "Do you believe there was fraud committed capable of changing the outcome of the election."
But DD Driver why did WI see such an unprecedented low turnout of registered voters on Election Day 2020
I could tell you, but really should be able to figure this one out.
Did anything weird happen last year that caused people to stay at home more? I confess I haven't been paying attention to the news.
Do you think people respond more positively to a tangible proposition, or not?
Never saw flat black helmets on the folks at a Trump rally. Saw lots of people at the steps that didn't strike me as Trump looking. Didn't act like them either. My immediate impression was false flag. Still is. But I care less and less each day.
We don't have a democracy. We have a representative republic with checks and balances.
The Democrats and their allies in academia, big business, media, and entertainment are beavering away to destroy it. Team Trump itself took a pretty good bite out of the republic with their ill-considered and pointless storming of the Capitol (perhaps assisted by agents provocateurs of the left).
Trump is doing a good job of beclowning himself.
In Atlas Shrugged (which Althose has never read because it is too long or something) all of the destructive, controlling, and counter-productive acts of the elites are empowered by an unnamed "emergency".
Here we are, folks. This is what degeneracy looks like. We have had it too good for too long.
By the way, I am pretty sure that the election was "rigged". It seems obvious that mail-in votes and the collapse of voter ID led to a Biden win. It was enabled by Trump's absolute refusal to modify his behavior and thereby broaden his appeal. Maybe he couldn't do it. Maybe he couldn't even shut up. Here's a pro tip: the most likeable candidate always wins. Joe Biden in his basement was more likeable than DJT on the stump.
I do believe Trump had much better plans for the people of America. Biden/Harris are place holders for something foul. Harris? Vogue cover says it all.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xH9XWNz0GW4
Obama 3.0 gonna be a shit show.
Roslyn C said..
I agree the question of voter fraud was set up to get a certain misleading result. If I were asked if there was widespread fraud which affected the election result I would say no, but there was massive fraud in key targeted Democrat controlled areas which threw the election to Biden. No one in positions of authority, courts, secretaries of state, etc., wanted to address it and there was no access permitted to the ballots to confirm the fraud. Even though the materials are supposed to be stored for 22 months, ballots are being shredded in Georgia and elsewhere.
So the poll has determined that the media has been effective in framing people's perception that the claim of fraud has no merit. Congratulations main stream media.
worth a hearty repeat.
daskol asked ... "why did WI see such an unprecedented low turnout of registered voters on Election Day 2020"
And DD Driver answered with snark, but I don't know why you think there was "unprecedented low turnout" of registered voters. Until the number of election-day voter registrations is posted (not yet available from the Wisconsin Election Committee), we don't actually know how many pre-registered voters turned out.
If you know 72% of eligible voters voted, and you know the number of eligible voters (from that USAToday thing I posted), and the people registered to vote prior to Election Day (also there), you can get at the number of Election Day registrants. Back of the envelope it's like 900K to 1M, in an election which featured lots of mail-in voting. Subtract that from the number of votes counted, and compare that number to voters registered prior to Election Day, and you're in the low 60s. Anyway, I prefer to look at the work other data analysts have done and pick that apart rather than doing it myself, but this is just going off the numbers in that USAToday fact check.
Look, whether there was fraud or whether it was squeaky clean, we need to get busy re-writing the book on American presidential elections. We need a new psephology, because the old one, and its old saws about bellwethers and coattails and things that always or never happen together, did not survive the singular political talents of Joe Biden (or, if you prefer, the singular hatred of Trump) that drove such divergence between our prior models and the outcome this year.
Personally, I am less concerned with threats to democracy and more concerned with threats to liberty.
Quinnipac doing its best to frame things the way their paymasters want.
My only shock is that they couldn't get results that were more lopsided.
The way things move these days we're only a year away from,"yes, we stole the election, but it was for your own good."
Personally, I am less concerned with threats to democracy and more concerned with threats to liberty.
This is so important. People fetishize the accoutrements of republican, representative democratic government. But the health of these accoutrements, the health of these institutions that support and empower government, are not important in themselves, nor are the institutions (which is good because we've trashed most of them long before Jan 6). But it's hard for a non-religious person to embrace the concept of natural rights. I do, but it's difficult at least as compared to what I imagine such an embrace is like for a fervent believer in God. And when I do embrace natural rights as a non-religious person, in some sort of fuzzy humanistic notion of man as mythical God's chosen creature, I imagine John Gray mocking me mercilessly.
The effort by the mainstream media to convince the public that the claims of voter fraud have been "debunked" has been dishonest, deliberate and comprehensive. It's hard to find a reference to the claims of irregularities that isn't preceded with a negative adjective. "Begging the question" has become the standard.
AP, CNBC, Reuters and all the usual suspects are using this technique to sway public opinion.
It works and is reflected in the responses of the one or two percent of people who speak to pollsters.
The way things move these days we're only a year away from,"yes, we stole the election, but it was for your own good."
Or elections are no longer necessary. The people have spoken.
I repeat for the 1000th time -- America long ago ceased to be the land of the free. And over the last 20 years, has increasingly voted for national suicide as it embraces the extremism and tyranny of the left.
And, again, let's dispense with the slippery slope arguments.
This country went to shit decades ago -- we are way past the slope and have slid into the abyss.
That is why you should have stopped trusting in man a long time ago.
The Obama brownshirts were out in force in 2008. The Algore anarchists were seeking to overturn democratic elections in 2000. The power-grabbing relativism of Clintonism has been Democrat/left dogma since 1992.
And, sorry to be such a bore in mentioning it yet again, but when people really could not care less about the bloody butchering of 60 million innocent human lives since 1973 in this country, we get the Hell we deserve.
Democracy in the US isn't under threat. Democracy in the US is finished.
Do you think that extremism is a big problem in the United States, or don't you think so?
Yes, left wing extremism is a serious problem
Do you think that - the Republican members of Congress who tried to stop the formal certification of Joe Biden's victory in the 2020 presidential election were undermining democracy or protecting democracy?
Protecting democracy
Do you think that - the individuals who stormed the U.S. Capitol on January 6th were undermining democracy or protecting democracy?
Protecting democracy
Do you think that President Trump should resign as president
No
Do you think that President Trump is mentally stable
Yes
Do I think Biden is mentally stable? No
Do you consider what happened at the U.S. Capitol on January 6th a coup attempt
Of course not. There would have been hundreds of dead Democrats if it was a coup attempt
Do you want to see the individuals who stormed the U.S. Capitol on January 6th held accountable for their actions
Depends? Does giving them a huge reward count as "holding home accountable"? If so, yes. If not, no
Do you hold President Trump responsible for the storming of the U.S. Capitol on January 6th
No, I hold the Democrats who committed vote fraud, and the Republicans who want to turn a blind eye to it, responsible
Do you think that law enforcement officials did everything they could to prevent the initial storming of the U.S. Capitol on January 6th, or don't you think so?
They should NOT have done anything. Just like they did when the Demcorats stormed the Hart Building to protest the Kavanaugh appointment
d_men3 said...
As usual, the questions were designed to get the responses that they wanted. "Widespread voter fraud" is an easy question to answer no to
Only if you're an ignoramus or a liar.
There was significant vote fraud in NV, AZ, MI, WI, PA, and GA. That's pretty "widespread"
In a free and democratic society, we would know who shot and killed the unarmed Ashli Babbitt.
Democracy was under threat 4 years ago. The coup was in the works.
"In a free and democratic society, we would know who shot and killed the unarmed Ashli Babbitt."
And we would put him on trial for Deprivation Of Rights Under Color Of Law, convict him if the video is an accurate depiction of reality, and sentence him to a life term or death as called for by the law.
Democracy, true democracy, is a TYRANNY OF THE MAJORITY. It is the rule of the mob.
It is where 50.001 percent can cow the rest into submission.
We are a REPUBLIC, not a Democracy.
Democracy in the United States is under threat - from Democrats.
They should ask, "Do you think President-Elect Biden is mentally competent?"
Plant the question, and people may have to think about it.
Fuck it - in for a penny, in for a pound:
"Which comes closer to your point of view: democracy in the United States is alive and well or democracy in the United States is under threat?"
Democracy in the United States is under threat.
"Do you think that extremism is a big problem in the United States, or don't you think so?"
I do not.
"Do you think that - the Republican members of Congress who tried to stop the formal certification of Joe Biden's victory in the 2020 presidential election were undermining democracy or protecting democracy?"
After the "President-is-a-traitor"-type lying of the last four years? Protecting.
"Do you think that - the individuals who stormed the U.S. Capitol on January 6th were undermining democracy or protecting democracy?"
Protecting.
"Do you think that President Trump should resign as president, or don't you think so?"
I - firmly - do not.
"Do you think that President Trump is mentally stable, or not?"
I think he's fine. I think he's living through a mass hysteria by the left.
"Do you consider what happened at the U.S. Capitol on January 6th a coup attempt, or not?"
I do not - the coup attempt is by the Democrats who never respected Trump's election - with Hillary calling it "illegitimate" until the end, and suffering no censure.
"Do you want to see the individuals who stormed the U.S. Capitol on January 6th held accountable for their actions, or not?"
Nope. Anyone who isn't outraged by what the Democrats have put AmericaNs through over the last FOUR YEARS - calling the President a traitor who pees on hookers in Russian hotels for Putin - should check his credentials because, I'm sure, you're in the wrong country.
"Do you hold President Trump responsible for the storming of the U.S. Capitol on January 6th, or not?"
Hell no - I blame the Clintons, Oprah, and the Obamas, for EVERYTHING.
"Do you think that law enforcement officials did everything they could to prevent the initial storming of the U.S. Capitol on January 6th, or don't you think so?
Nah. They down. I know they down. They're Americans.
If Joe Biden were really a leader and really trying to unite the country, he would tell Pelosi to stand down on the second impeachment of Trump. But he isn't and he isn't.
So it's ALL partisan. And it will only get worse until we start electing leaders who care more about their country than they do about their tribe. I don't see that happening any time soon.
I'm shocked. The pollsters didn't bother to ask about attitudes about the BLM/Antifa rioting of the past year. Can't imagine why not. Oops--maybe it's because the answers would be the mirror image of the attitudes toward the Capitol riot. The answers simply indicate that Trump Derangement Syndrome lingers on.
I’m trying to put on a good face for my kids(24,21,19). In reality I am terrified of the trajectory this nation seems to be taking. What crazy shit happens next?
D.D. Driver said...
Re widespread voter fraud, a sincere question. Was the 89% voter turnout in Wiconsin legit?
Total Votes: 3,297,352
Voting Age Population4,536,417
Math: 3,297,352/4,536,417 * 100% = 72.7%
Voter turnout in Wisconsin was actually lower this year than in 2004 (73.74%).
Turnout in Milwaukee County was "reportedly" 83.6%.
But they will not allow any kind of audit of ballot envelopes or ballots or signatures with people watching from closer than 20 feet.
So yeah run with that.
Well, it didn’t take long. As detailed by T Carlson.
At Twitter Public Policy today
“Ahead of the Ugandan election, we're hearing reports that Internet service providers are being ordered to block social media and messaging apps.
We strongly condemn internet shutdowns – they are hugely harmful, violate basic human rights and the principles of the #OpenInternet.
Ok
Democracy in the United States is under threat - from Democrats
True
Blogger 320Busdriver said..."I’m trying to put on a good face for my kids(24,21,19). In reality I am terrified of the trajectory this nation seems to be taking. What crazy shit happens next?"
I'm resigned, as befits my 65 years. What are you gonna do?
The election was not stolen, but even if it was once the USSC rejected the cases it was over. If you reject that you reject *the republic*.
Yes it was.
Jan 6 gathering at the Capitol. What was the point?
It seemed there was a lot of fraud in the vote counting. The State Legislatures tried to address that and they were brutalized with intimidation. There were poll workers and poll watchers that signed affadavits about the fraud they witnessed. They were brutalized with intimidation.
Let's go to Court, then. Cases were dismissed for 'lack of standing' or past the expire date. Not one Court in the land would look at the evidence. Supreme Court? They wanted to go home to their families. They knew of the brutal intimidation. They are not gods and goddesses. They saved themselves.
Surely Congress will hear us out. Let's gather and make sure they know we don't believe the election was on the up and up.
All of the news media was against the citizens who sought redress for their grievance.
Understand this. The Republic fell, like all republics fall. There will be no 'unity'.
From ancient times, all sorts of tales and stories have taught us that you can't restore good by evil means. We can't restore democracy in this country by undemocratic means. I believe that the election was quite likely stolen, but the procedures that we have for addressing that kind of problem proved to be inadequate for a variety of reasons. Perhaps we can change those procedures. Certainly we can change how we conduct our elections. We need to do that, and we need to do it democratically. If Republicans and Democrats can't work together on that, then we're doomed, and I'm glad I'm too old to see our democracy go down.
The only question that matters is “Are you now or have you ever been a Trump supporter?”
D.D. Driver said...
Re widespread voter fraud, a sincere question. Was the 89% voter turnout in Wiconsin legit?
WI had over 130k voters register for the first time in 2020, and vote, while declaring themselves "permanently invalided", so so not providing a WI State photo ID.
To a first order approximation, every single one of those ballots is fraudulent. The margin in the State was 20k votes.
The claim that "WI was not stolen" is delusional"
Want to prove the election was honest: Send out officials to find and document every single one of those voters. Pretty simple and straightforward. you've got their addresses, their names. You've got the voter records, which tell you their addresses, and however many other people are registered to vote, and did vote, from those addresses.
Just go to each residence, ask for each of the registered voters who showed photo ID and voted. Then ask for the ones w/o photo id.
When the total of "voters not found" exceeds the margin, you toss the result.
If the total never comes close to teh margin, then you can claim the election was honest.
it's surprising the WI officials didn't do this simple test, to prove that the election was valid.
It's almost like they KNOW the election was stolen
I suppose the polls are closed, but these are good questions and I feel like voting anyway.
<< Do you think that extremism is a big problem in the United States, or don't you think so?
>>>>>>>>> I do think so.
<< Do you think that - the Republican members of Congress who tried to stop the formal certification of Joe Biden's victory in the 2020 presidential election were undermining democracy or protecting democracy?
>>>>>>>>> I think they were doing neither. I think they hoped to show that our national elections are (at least potentially) rife with corrupt practices and “insider” manipulation.
<< Do you think that the individuals who stormed the U.S. Capitol were undermining democracy or protecting democracy?...
>>>>>>>> I think they were pissed off and wanted to show it; pissed off at a lot of stuff, but mostly that they were tired of Trump being trashed and set up by adversaries from virtually all directions. They lost their minds as a result, and believed that democracy was/is abused by the media and the Democrats.
<< Do you think that President Trump should resign as president, or don't you think so?
>>>>>>>> I do not think so. Why should he? Nixon did because he was told he’d be impeached. In Trump’s case, he probably thinks, “being impeached by these ethically challenged dolts is an honor, so why not go for a doubleheader and set a record?
<< Do you think that President Trump is mentally stable, or not?
>>>>>>>> I honestly don’t know, but he's always been kind of nutty and unorthodox, combative, and unpredictable emotionally, so that just is “who he is”. I don’t see that he’s much more of less mentally stable lately. “Wild man, self destructive, etc.” is/is not (your choice) mentally unstable.” I pass.
<< Do you consider what happened at the U.S. Capitol on January 6th a coup attempt, or not?
>>>>>>>> No. There has been an ongoing virtual coup attempt, but it’s by Democrats and various GOPers in the establishment.
<< Do you want to see the individuals who stormed the U.S. Capitol on January 6th held accountable for their actions, or not?
>>>>>>>> Of course. I was in Turkey summer of ’63 when an attermpted military coup was put down. Traveling home (Orient Express), I saw news photos of 3 instigators hanging by their necks in the street near where I’d been staying. I’m not in favor of that.
<< Do you hold President Trump responsible for the storming of the U.S. Capitol on January 6th, or not?
>>>>>>>> Not really. IMO, he probably wanted a demonstration by a big and enthusiastic crowd of supporters because that’s what floats his boat.
<< Do you think that law enforcement officials did everything they could to prevent the initial storming of the U.S. Capitol on January 6th, or don't you think so?…"
>>>>>>>> Yes, to the extent they could considering that they were outmanned, not well prepared and ill-equipped .
Lots of great question at this new Quinnipiac poll. Read the details.
AA, interesting you picked "Quinnipiac" as the only poll? Rasmussen's Poll has it reversed.
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