December 11, 2020

"Rush Limbaugh isn’t saying he wants the country to split into red and blue factions as a result of conservative fury over the election results."

"As he attempted to make clear Thursday, he’s just saying that other people are saying it. 'I know that there’s a sizable and growing sentiment for people who believe that’s we’re headed to, whether we want to get there or not, secession,' he said on his nationwide radio program. 'Now, I didn’t advocate for it. I never would advocate for secession. I’m simply repeating what I have heard.'... He didn’t say where he’s heard anyone float the notion of states seceding, let alone spell out how such a neo-Civil War separation might take place. But Limbaugh’s ambiguous flirtation with the idea may be his special contribution to conservative media’s rock-solid support of Trump’s baseless claims of election fraud. 'I actually think that we’re trending toward secession,' he said on Wednesday’s show. 'I see more and more people asking what in the world do we have in common with the people who live in, say, New York?'" 


I agree with WaPo that it's a ridiculous notion, but there ought to be some acknowledgment that people on the left have been out there talking about the west coast seceding from the Union. 

AND: Here's a BBC article from April 2019, "What if California seceded from the US?" ("For the past few years, divides both within the state, and between California and the rest of the US, have sparked at least six initiatives aimed at breaking California into smaller states or cleaving it entirely from the rest of the country").

ADDED: Writing this post, I saw a little sidetrack into the Cascadia independence movement
The proposed country or region largely would consist of the Canadian province of British Columbia and the US States of Washington and Oregon. Including all parts of the bioregion, Cascadia would stretch from coastal Alaska in the north into Northern California in the south, and inland to include parts of Idaho, Montana, Nevada, Utah, Wyoming, and Yukon. More conservative advocates propose borders that include the land west of the crest of Cascade Range, and the western side of British Columbia.... 
Cascadian secessionist movements generally state that their political motivations deal mostly with political, economic, cultural, and ecological ties, as well as the beliefs that the eastern federal governments are out of touch, slow to respond, and hinder provincial and state attempts at further bioregional integration. 
These connections go back to the Oregon Territory, and further back to the Oregon Country, the land most commonly associated with Cascadia, and the last time the region was treated as a single political unit, though administered by two countries. Some have asserted that political protest in the wake of the 2004 United States presidential election appears to be the primary reason for renewed separatist movements throughout states with substantial Democratic majorities, such as Washington and Oregon. 
On September 9, 2001, the Cascadian National Party website was launched on Angelfire, with the goal of launching a political party dedicated to the independence of Oregon, Washington and British Columbia, but faltered quickly. Cascadian independence has seen a resurgence in popularity following the election of Donald Trump as president of the United States on November 8, 2016, with a secession referendum proposed in Oregon.....

151 comments:

Joe Smith said...

For many years there has been talk of Northern California splitting off from the rest of the state.

But that is from the conservative side, trying to get out of the socialist hellhole that is modern CA.

One can dream...

RMc said...

there ought to be some acknowledgment that people on the left have been out there talking about the west coast seceding from the Union.

Being a leftie means never having to say you're sorry.

Marcus Bressler said...

This has been quite the year for the news media: lying, repeating lies after they've been proven false, projecting about conservatives EXACTLY what the Left is and has been doing, and, saddest of all, getting away with it.

THEOLDMAN

The best decision I ever made in my life, behind getting sober, was leaving journalism. I was a traditional liberal then and I fear I might have went down that leftist path, fueled by resentments and alcoholism that ran rampart for another 13 years.

AZ Bob said...

Give California back to Mexico. That should fix the problem. And for insurance, give New York to Canada.

I Callahan said...

If this comes to fruition, then I hope there is a secessionist movement.

The usefulness of Covid fear

mockturtle said...

Honestly, I don't believe there can ever be a reconciliation between the warring factions because the differences involve basic Constitutional integrity and distinctly American values. I'd really like to see a split. The vision for our country touted by the Left is not one my family is willing to share.

Kai Akker said...

Secession is one logical outcome of our divisions. It has been suggested in many forums; I'm pretty sure it has been endorsed by some of the commenters on this site in discussions of Althouse posts, or at least in cafe discussions. There should not be any shock over that; the armed civil war has been waged at least since Bernie Bro Hodginskon attempted to assassinate the House Republican baseball team and nearly got them. Whoever's been backing Antifa and BLM is fighting a nearly one-sided civil war.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

The problem with secession as a solution to the current deep divide between the population in the United States...is that it isn't a State by State issue.

The idea that some States can secede from the Union as a block as happened in the North/South divide of the Civil War is not a possibility in today's irreparable split.

The divide is more Urban/Rural. California is a prime example of this. The cities are liberal/blue. The rural areas are very conservative/red. In our area the idea of seceding from California (the State) is popular. There are signs everywhere to that effect. We don't want to secede FROM the United States. Just from the onerous liberal tyranny of the urban areas.


The areas that want to secede or be divorced from the liberals are spotty all across the country. There are pockets and large geographical swaths of RED leaning populations. But...the idea that there could be one cohesive geographical NEW Red Country is not going to happen.

hombre said...

Limbaugh addressed this yesterday. It’s just fake news.

He flatly denied having said anything remotely suggesting approval of secession. I’m not a regular listener, but he was unequivocal. There was no “anbiguous flirtation” with the idea.

WaPo is a cesspool.

Bill Owens said...

I dunno, secession seems a better alternative than civil war. Although I think neither will happen, talking about leaving is moderately preferable to talking about shooting.
Now, this is WAPO talking about Limbaugh talking about what he's 'hearing' so it's hardly a foundation for serious discussion...much less a course of action.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Added. The only solution is for the "red" lower population areas to just kick ass and take over the "blue" high population areas to create a State that is no longer "blue"

This isn't going to happen either.

Heartless Aztec said...

Thomas Jefferson said it best... "When in the course of Human Events..."

I hold that truth self-evident.

Mike (MJB Wolf) said...

“Baseless charges.” They just can’t report facts can they?

Temujin said...

I've read numerous articles over the past 3-4 years about various parts of various states, or entire states, or entire regions seceding from the Union. From both right and left groups or publications. Here are just a handful. This is not nothing. The frequency of talk, and actual attempts at legislation are increasing. Someday I may need a passport to enter Wisconsin.

Oregon secession movement

Six Californias

Three Californias

Peaceful Red State Secession

Blue States Secede

Split Washington State in two

Split up the US

Amy Siskind/Jesusland PS- you can't find this looking through Google

Could the US breakup?

Mike (MJB Wolf) said...

“Russian collusion” was a “baseless charge.”

Mike (MJB Wolf) said...

“Wikileaks coordination” was a “baseless charge.”

I'm Not Sure said...

"I agree with WaPo that it's a ridiculous notion..."

More ridiculous than the Green New Deal, 57 different genders, riots, looting and voting fraud?

Earnest Prole said...

Let me mention once again: I divide my time between the bluest of blue America in the San Francisco East Bay and the Occupied State of Jefferson in deep red Northern California, and in neither place have I ever heard a single person utter a single word that could remotely be construed as a desire to kill their fellow Americans in a Second Civil War, or express any interest whatsoever in splitting the country into two or more pieces.

Mike (MJB Wolf) said...

“Violated the Logan Act” was a “baseless charge.”

Mike (MJB Wolf) said...

“White Supremacist” was a “baseless charge.”

wild chicken said...

Very irresponsible of Rush. "It's been suggested," "Other people (not me) are saying..." How weak can you get.

Someone *else* is gonna start shooting eh? I don't think so. Or it'll be some Dylan Roof type nut.

Mike (MJB Wolf) said...

“Withheld aid from Ukraine” was a “baseless charge.”

Michael K said...

There is a good book on the concept of peaceful realignment written well before the stolen election. It is titled, "America 3.0"

I even wrote an Amazon review on it.

This all predated Trump and the insanity of the militant left.

Mike (MJB Wolf) said...

“Obstruction of justice” was a “baseless charge.”

Michael K said...

in neither place have I ever heard a single person utter a single word that could remotely be construed as a desire to kill their fellow Americans in a Second Civil War, or express any interest whatsoever in splitting the country into two or more pieces.

Try downtown Portland.

wendybar said...

The left want us dead. We are holding back because WE are not violent. They make a move....and you know what is going to happen. This is not going to end well, no matter what happens next.

Big Mike said...

I agree with WaPo that it's a ridiculous notion, but there ought to be some acknowledgment that people on the left have been out there talking about the west coast seceding from the Union.

Gullible Althouse expects honesty from the Post. Is there a point where you grow up and look at the real world as it is, Professor, and not the way it was 40 - 50 years ago? Big Journalism has changed and you must change in response.

Mike (MJB Wolf) said...

“Tear gassed protesters” was a “baseless charge.”

DavidUW said...

Time for my evergreen response. If trump or Biden or pick someone offends you so much, you give up on friends family and your country, isn’t this an argument for government so limited it doesnt cause such derangement no matter who’s in charge?

Quayle said...

These things have a way of settling themselves out. Social norms that don't work eventually die. That's what we're seeing in NYC right now. Good desires about how to be compassionate to the downtrodden, that are either (a) divisive in implementation because no matter the group they seek to help they keep struggling with the question of who is the downtrodden or (b) the perfect venue for power hungry people to use to advance their own selfish interest. A lot of selfish power hungry people have done very nicely espousing aid to the poor and downtrodden, while they rose to wealth and comfort, leaving behind the very people they were claiming to help.

YoungHegelian said...

I want to strongly second what DBQ says above about the "divide" being urban vs rural and not state by state. The best visual way to express this idea is this graphic of counties won by Trump vs Clinton in the 2016 election.

Mike (MJB Wolf) said...

“Illegitimate president” was a “baseless charge.”

Kai Akker said...

---The areas that want to secede or be divorced from the liberals are spotty all across the country. There are pockets and large geographical swaths of RED leaning populations. [DBQ]

Right. So south Jersey has wanted to divorce itself from deep-blue north Jersey for a long time. I see Temujin's links give some others. Secession we identify with Confederacy leaving the union, but why can't it operate via more regional realignments?

Before any or many of those succeed, it could also be that the blue governing entities will simply crumble from their own financial and social imbalances and a dramatic change will follow from that. Chicago is the most obvious candidate, but there are others en train too.

Ice Nine said...

>>Rush Limbaugh floats a startling notion — then quickly backs off" (WaPo)<<

He didn't "back off" of anything. He said the same thing in the second statement as he did in the first.

Achilles said...

There is no common ground with people who think it is OK to kick poll observers out of polling stations.

stever said...

"Trump’s baseless claims of election fraud."

Its not baseless, just because you don't think so.

Gov98 said...

I suppose it all depends on what one means and what the words used are. Maybe there won't be a "secession," does it really matter? There will be a disintegration. Do the words matter? I suppose not. At the end of the roman empire, that union disintegrated as it neither had the political will nor the policital power to remain integrated. The same thing will happen here.

Eventually, the full faith and credit clause will be effectively nullified. Would I, a Cal FTB agent feel remotely safe enforcing any of California's R&T code on an expat in Montana? I sure wouldn't. Would I, a Montana Concealed Lic Carrier feel remotely safe carrying in California? Of course not. The logical end is the same, the same thing that happened at the end of Solomon's Reign, and Romulus Augustulus or Julius Nepos. We're 25 trillion paper dollars in "debt." The "elite" acts like its playing an absurd game of musical chairs, everyone knows the music stops sometime, no one really knows when.

Eventually, we here sometime after the reign of Constantine, think there's no way the American union disintegrates, reality teaches another story, it surely will, the how's and the why's, and the when's are all for time to reveal. More simply how many people will continue to offer their life up for this country? I think that number dwindles and dwindles, and as it does what power do the police or military really have.

A man does have himself killed for a GI bill or for a State of the Union Mention, but you must speak to the soul in order to motivate him. - Reparaphrase of Bonaparte.

Achilles said...

From "Secession? Rush Limbaugh floats a startling notion — then quickly backs off" (WaPo).

The Washington Post is an absolutely disgusting news outlet that is absolutely dishonest and evil.

I am placing blame on it's owner.

Bilwick said...

Isn't the country already split? As Robert Heinlein pointed out decades ago, society is always divided between people who want to force their desires on others, and those who do not.

Leland said...

I'll just leave these here:
California counties will vote on secession - WaPo 29 May 2014
‘California is a nation, not a state’: A fringe movement wants a break from the U.S. - WaPo 18 Feb 2017
What if California seceded from the US? - BBC 7 Apr 2019 (just to show how far the discussion goes)
What if Trump stays in office? - WaPo 3 Sep 2020

The latter is an op-ed from a professor that discusses this Transition Integrity Project gaming session which includes this scenario (if Trump won): "The Biden Campaign encouraged Western states, particularly California but also Oregon and Washington, and collectively known as “Cascadia,” to secede from the Union unless Congressional Republicans agreed to a set of structural reforms to fix our democratic system to ensure majority rule."

I didn't click the latest WaPo article linked by Althouse. Does it mention their own recent history in regards to discussing secession? Or did they admit it and point fingers at Limbaugh, who was noting what they've been doing for some time now?

Achilles said...

If the country divides into Red and Blue then the parasitic nature of the Blue side becomes immediately apparent.

Dense Urban areas require social compacts that necessarily destroy independence and social well being. They can only be maintained through heavy incarceration of the incompatible. They also cannot feed and power themselves without the natural resources of red america.

Over the next 10 years all of our major Urban areas are going to turn into industrial wastelands and failures as the productive members flee to red areas whether we are one country or two.

The question is whether or not those refugees will realize why they fled before they destroy those red areas with their policies.

Earnest Prole said...

Try downtown Portland.

Or Althouse's comments.

Look, I'm not denying the existence of excitable wackjobs, I'm saying normal Americans don't think this way in the course of living their normal American lives.

Dave Begley said...

WaPo, "in support of Trump’s baseless claims of election fraud."

Baseless? Baseless? That's pure ipse dixit.

Listen you Deep State motherfuckers. This election has been stolen and the whole world can see it. The evidence is pervasive. Stop lying to us you assholes.

mccullough said...

There are easier ways for people to resist bad government and bad cultural institutions.

1. Don’t join the military. Let the Woke join (they won’t).

2. Don’t join police departments or fire departments in blue cities. Let the Woke join (they won’t).

3. Don’t go to college.

4. Don’t visit blue cities.

5. Don’t watch pro sports.

6. Don’t watch entertainment.

7. Don’t consume any media based in blue cities.

8. Don’t work for a publicly traded company.


Marshall Rose said...

Watch for Texas to start after Scotus shreds the constitutuon by dismissing their claim...

#TEXIT

Michael K said...

Look, I'm not denying the existence of excitable wackjobs, I'm saying normal Americans don't think this way in the course of living their normal American lives.

Fair enough but there are more crazies than you seem willing to admit. There is a reason why Kurt Schlicter calls Trump voters "normals."

steve uhr said...

Sounds good to me. As it is now blue states fund red states with fed taxes. See how they do without that excess money in their coffers.

Mississippi received $2.13 for every tax dollar the state sent to Washington in 2015. West Virginia received $2.07, Kentucky got $1.90 and South Carolina got $1.71.

Meanwhile, New Jersey received 74 cents in federal spending for tax every dollar the state sent to Washington. New York received 81 cents, Connecticut received 82 cents and Massachusetts received 83 cents.

I'm all for letting the parasitic states going it alone.

mccullough said...

Congress counts the electoral votes.

The objections should be raised and settled by Congress.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Earnest Prole said... Let me mention once again: I divide my time between the bluest of blue America in the San Francisco East Bay and the Occupied State of Jefferson in deep red Northern California,....

I live in the Occupied State of Jefferson and have family in the Bluest of Blue areas. And I have heard, lately in my area, more chatter of "taking matters into our own hands" from those that are the angriest about the tyranny and the stolen election. People don't want to leave the US. They want to leave the Blue...or better yet...make the Blue leave us TF alone.

Whether anything (productive)could transpire from "taking matters into our own hands" is is doubtful. Cathartic. Yes. Productive I doubt it.

I love the idea of a State of Jefferson divorced from California and a part of the US.

Dividing the country piecemeal into Red/Blue areas would be chaotic. Plus...there would then need to be Diplomatic relations between the areas. Trade agreements.

The Red side might then realize where their food, lumber, minerals, gas, oil and other commodities come from.

Churchy LaFemme: said...

We could divide the country into 13 Districts..

Michael K said...

isn’t this an argument for government so limited it doesnt cause such derangement no matter who’s in charge?

That's why the 1876 election did not cause this much anger. The two parties settled by letting Democrats resume doing what they are best at. Suppressing blacks. That allowed the Republicans to run the economy that mattered and gave us 40 years of prosperity.

I'm Not Sure said...

"If the country divides into Red and Blue then the parasitic nature of the Blue side becomes immediately apparent."

Which is why progressives insist on "One Size Fits All" solutions. That way, their failures aren't exposed by comparisons with successes elsewhere and can be covered up by shuffling resources around (while naturally skimming some off the top for themselves.)

Top. Men.

I Callahan said...

Mississippi received $2.13 for every tax dollar the state sent to Washington in 2015. West Virginia received $2.07, Kentucky got $1.90 and South Carolina got $1.71.

I am so tired of this oft-repeated lie.

What do most of those states have in common? Either military bases, lots of retirees on social security, or both. It's an utterly dishonest claim to say that blue states fund red states.

MadisonMan said...

Prescient words from Star Trek (TOS): Link.
There are a lot of Americans who think being told what to do/what to say is Un-American. There are too many people on the Left side of the political spectrum who want to control what you say and do.

Big Mike said...

... the armed civil war has been waged at least since Bernie Bro Hodginskon [sic] attempted to assassinate the House Republican baseball team and nearly got them.

If Hodgkinson’s attack happened right now I think he really would precipitate some serious blood flow. And IMAO most of the funerals would be of Democrats.

I'm Not Sure said...

"The Red side might then realize where their food, lumber, minerals, gas, oil and other commodities come from."

Did you mean "Blue side"? And from what I've read, aside from wanting food (organically produced, of course- no chemicals allowed), they're opposed to utilizing any of those other resources. Logging? Out. Mining? Out. Drilling? Out.

YoungHegelian said...

@steve uhr,

As it is now blue states fund red states with fed taxes.

No, just no. This is one of those popular lefty memes that floats around the interwebz, and like so many lefty memes, it ain't half as true as the left would like it to be.

It also doesn't take much googling to come up with counter-arguments from "reputable" sources (such as this).

If Blue states are providers & not beggars, then why are the states that the House Dems wanted to sneak in massive bail-out money into the COIVID relief bill for pension liabilities all blue? At the bottom of this page are the rankings of states by their credit-worthiness. Now, the list is mostly a mixed bag of Republican vs Democratic states, until you get to the bottom ten or so, and then the list turns strongly blue.

Qwinn said...

Whether anything (productive)could transpire from "taking matters into our own hands" is is doubtful. Cathartic. Yes. Productive I doubt it.

There is no course of action that leads to short term "productivity".

But there is hope of productivity returning on the other side of the initial shocks caused by "taking matters into our own hands".

Letting them get away with the election theft? That will be permanent decline, if not outright imminent destruction.

mccullough said...

Mississippi has the highest percentage of black citizens of any state.

West Virginia is part of Appalachia.

It’s not surprising federal dollars are sent to the poorest states and citizens.

NYC public schools receive more than a half billion a year in Title I funds from the federal government to help educate students from low-income homes.

tcrosse said...

A more robust federalism would take care of much of the discontent. Let California be California, let Alabama be Alabama, etc.

gadfly said...

"[T]here ought to be some acknowledgment that people on the left have been out there talking about the west coast seceding from the Union."

Or vice versa.

Wiki notes that "Calexit" - which wants to have California secede, was formed in 2016. The campaign president was Louis J. Marinelli, a New Yorker living in Russia. The vice president in 2016 listed Marcus Ruiz Evans. Both men are former Republicans and Marinelli says he voted for Donald Trump.

Meanwhile Davy Crocket rises again:

A Texas state lawmaker has vowed to introduce legislation allowing a referendum for voters to cast their ballots on whether to secede from the United States.

“The federal government is out of control and does not represent the values of Texans. That is why I am committing to file legislation this session that will allow a referendum to give Texans a vote for the State of Texas to reassert its status as an independent nation,” Texas state Rep. Kyle Biedermann (R) shared on Facebook on Tuesday.

mccullough said...

A state cannot take away US citizenship.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

"The Red side might then realize where their food, lumber, minerals, gas, oil and other commodities come from."

I'm Not Sure Did you mean "Blue side"

Oh DUH! Yes I meant the Blue!! Thank you.

The Red areas/rural provide the necessities of life. San Francisco for example of a typical Blue area. They import water from the Sierras. They have no way to grow enough food to support their population. Other than Sea Food...fish and crab they have no local food sources or major agricultural operations. Power/electricity/natural gas all from outside ares. Lumber, minerals, building materials. Everything comes from other areas. Other than sea food.

In reality the Blue/urban areas are islands dependent for survival from imports from the Red areas.

Yes. They are the more populated areas. But they cannot survive with out the rest of the country.

So like Steve Ur....I would like to see those leech areas cut off. See how long they can last. (Leaving New York the Movie)

gilbar said...

for a while now, my hopefullest hope is that the disunion if these United States is peaceful
(seems less and less (and less and less) likely; but, i still hope)

One thing is For Sure; the $Trillions of debt is going to kill the USA
Folk like steve uhr live in this fantasy land where things are funded with taxes; that hasn't been true in my entire life... Things are funded with Tbonds and other debt

As someone said; America's chickens are going to come home to roost; and when they do, they'll be wanting to be paid. After the USA defaults, how is it going to fund the police they'll need to keep things together? Oh, that's right: They Won't

Ken B said...

AZ Bob:” And for insurance, give New York to Canada.”

What did we 🇨🇦 do to deserve that??

Churchy LaFemme: said...

Prescient words from Star Trek (TOS): Link.

Pike didn't know about hot wings

Skeptical Voter said...

Trump's baseless claims. Says the Washington Post, the arbiter of truth for all of us. Not.

Living here in California I've frequently seen claims that we are "too good for the rest of the country--and since we are the X largest economy in the world, we'll just leave them behind".

Michael said...

In Portland four years ago there were lots of people making mouth noises about splitting from the USA. One lefty biz man squashed that talk by noting, "As soon as Oregon leaves the union, three quarters of the state will leave Oregon and rejoin the US. That three quarters posses our electricity and most of our drinking water. Portland would go dark and thirsty very quickly.

Michelle Dulak Thomson said...

DBQ, you're somewhere in northeastern CA, yes? Near OR? The current proposed "State of Jefferson," which does not (for some reason) occur in Ann's WIKI piece on Cascadia, is supposed to be eastern OR, far northern CA (north of Mendecino County, say), and probably some or all of ID. In other words, the red bits of two very blue states, plus part or all of another red state. It's nearly all rural, so pretty consistent politically. I don't mean it's 100% Republican, but it's definitely in another world from Portland, or the Bay Area.

Salem, alas, is on the other side of whatever line would be drawn; we may be a reddish part of the blue half of a blue state, but we're also the state capital, so we'd be lumped in with Portland and the rest of the coast.

With CA itself, though, the problem is even more extreme. Yes, CA has had Republican governors, even some quite good ones -- Reagan (of course) and Schwarzenegger (surprisingly) come to mind. But governor of CA is not actually all that powerful a position, unless you choose to use the Democratic supermajority in the Legislature to make it your own fiefdom, as Newsom has. (Newsom, btw, is definitely on the "CA should secede" bandwagon; every time the rest of the country, never mind the rest of the state, wants to do something different from his own desires, he trots out that "world's sixth-largest economy" line and runs with it. Who cares how part of the country rates compared to the economies of foreign nations unless you're already thinking of it as . . . a nation itself?)

steve uhr, yes, those icky "parasitic" red states. The states you mention are either very poor, largely made up of military installations, or both. Democrats are keen on the well-off supporting the less fortunate, unless and until the less-fortunate start getting uppity ideas, like thinking for themselves. Bennies always come with the strings firmly attached.

Remove the military, the agriculture, and at least half of the black people, and what's left? A bunch of cities and their rich suburbs, sans food and defense. Never mind Portland and Seattle; look at SF. It's already half way to Caracas: A super-rich upper class, heavily barricaded off, and a wretched underclass for whom even finding a place to live is nearly impossible, and the streets are the toilet of first resort. Check out Market St. (I suppose it used to be well-named, once) sometime, between Embarcadero and Civic Center. The place is deserted apart from the homeless; all the businesses, even the pawn shops, are boarded up (not just after the summer riots, but all the time); the needles are now varied with foil; the fountain in United Nations Plaza is the world's largest open-air urinal; and the place literally reeks. I don't know how Pelosi can stand it. Except actually I do: she can stand it because she and her mansion and her blessed $20K SubZero and her $12/pt ice cream are almost literally not in the same SF.

Wince said...

steve uhr said...
Sounds good to me. As it is now blue states fund red states with fed taxes. See how they do without that excess money in their coffers.

Not sure your concept would work out the way you think.

1.) Isn't most of that "excess mony" actually social security benefits moving to low income tax rate states? You can collect SocSec living in a foreign country. But not Florida? Do you advocate denying people their SocSec?

2.) For anyone now entering the workforce and given the choice, would you want to (1) enroll in SocSec, or (2) opt out and save for your own retirement? I think the latter: again, advantage secession states.

3.) To the extent red states are welfare dependent and would have to cut benefits: are blue states ready for the influx of migrants seeking generous income support in their blue state? What, you'd build a wall to keep them out?

4.) Where are blue states going to site their military bases?

5.) Don't worry, blue states have Facebook and Google!

Big Mike said...

... and in neither place have I ever heard a single person utter a single word that could remotely be construed as a desire to kill their fellow Americans in a Second Civil War ...

@Ernie, interesting that you think potential assassins run around telling everyone their plans to commit murder. California may be weird, but it can't be that weird.

The dangerous people are the ones who take Tuco's advice.

bagoh20 said...

We have all seen the Left's lack of impulse control, lawlessness, violence, and their penchant for personal destruction over political disagreement. Remember how they treated Nick Sandmann (the Covington kid), and Brett Cavanaugh for things the didn't even do, and which those attackers knew they didn't do, plus all the other attempts to destroy people they disagree with. Now imagine you were a judge who knew from the evidence presented that the presidential election was in fact stolen via fraud. Would you have the balls to force those states to throw out their results, and do one of the other remedies that would likely give the job back to Trump? Would you be willing to put yourself, your family, and you friends through the inevitable attacks and possible ruining of their lives with the very real possibility of violence just to do what you know is right, when you can avoid all that by simply pissing of the far more reasonable and responsible rest of the nation. As angry as I am about the election, and as supportive as I am of Trump, I'm not even sure I would commit that suicide.

That's the kind of world a leftist run state would put you in for just following your conscience. It's certainly not a unique occurrence. It's happened a lot of places, and the results are always tragic. Nothing would be safe. Not your job, your reputation, your family, your dog, or your property. They would aim a bazooka of hate at all of it, and you would always know they have their finger on the trigger.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Michelle Dulak Thomson said... DBQ, you're somewhere in northeastern CA, yes? Near OR?

Yup. Near Oregon, Nevada and Idaho on the SW corner of Ore. The State of Jefferson was proposed before WWII by rural California and Oregonians who were sick of being ignored by the powers in the rest of both States. Sound familiar.

Definitely another world from SF or other areas in California.

Sebastian said...

"there ought to be some acknowledgment that people on the left have been out there talking"

And why is that? You're not saying progs need to be consistent, are you? That there ought to be honest progs?.

rehajm said...

What do most of those states have in common? Either military bases, lots of retirees on social security, or both. It's an utterly dishonest claim to say that blue states fund red states.

What I came to say. Make damn sure your math is correct before you decide to go it alone...

Rt41Rebel said...

On of the revelations that Covid has provided us is just how useless large cities are. While they were shut down, the rest of the country never missed a beat.

bagoh20 said...

What exactly is it about the right's preferences for community standards and laws that so many left of center find so offensive? I know what they say they hate, but most of it is made up narratives that don't really describe real people or how they think and act.

For us on the right, it's pretty simple. We want freedom, rule of law, respect for private property and individual rights. We want reason, science and facts to guide us, while respecting disagreement.

Michelle Dulak Thomson said...

Thanks, everyone, for reminding me about Social Security. Another (and major) reason for that "wealth transfer" steve uhr is keen on. There are people who retire in cold states, but very few who move North when they retire. The traffic's all the other way.

DBQ, Did you mean SE corner? Oregon is huge; it takes a good ten hours to drive from Yreka (last stop in CA before you hit OR on the coast) to ID. And even up there, the coast is less rural than the interior.

BTW, I meant Mendocino County, not "Mendecino." Caught it after publication and didn't want to retype the whole thing.

Danno said...

The Red side might then realize where their food, lumber, minerals, gas, oil and other commodities come from.

DBQ, you have that backwards. I believe your typing was going faster than the coffee was waking up your brain.

Michael K said...

Blogger tcrosse said...
A more robust federalism would take care of much of the discontent. Let California be California, let Alabama be Alabama, etc.


That ignores those living in CA who are not in the looney fringe of LA and SF. Sadly, San Diego seems to be joining in.

One of my sons has a couple of years before he can retire and leave. His daughter is going to U of Alabama to escape, although UA seems to have some of the same pathology that all colleges are infected with. His other kids are younger but eying Arkansas.

Nonapod said...

Part of the problem is that we have one side declaring that claims of election fraud are "baseless".

First of all (before we even talk about the actual claims and evidence) it's an indisputable fact that at least some fraud has occurred. It's probably a safe bet to say that a little fraud always occurs on some level in all presidential elections since the first.

But when you're dealing with something like 150 million votes cast across 50 state and 3000 counties each with their own internal protocols being tallied by both thousands of humans and software written by humans, humans who each have their own agendas/wishes/hopes/needs during an insane precidence breaking year in the highest stake presidential election of our lifetimes, it a virtual certainty that their will be fraud. Add in the fact that something like 2/3rds of the ballots cast were mail in, something that has never been done on such a scale? I mean, come on!

I mean, it might be somewhat reasonable to say that you don't believe that there was enough fraud to change the ultimate result, but to dismiss people's claims of fraud as "baseless" is willfully ignorant and outright insulting to tens of million of voters.

This is the problem. We essentially have one side that appears to be denying reality and claiming that it's in fact the other side that is denying reality. I honestly don't see how can that be reconciled.

Michael K said...

Blogger bagoh20 said...
What exactly is it about the right's preferences for community standards and laws that so many left of center find so offensive? I know what they say they hate, but most of it is made up narratives that don't really describe real people or how they think and act.


Good point. Charles Murray has pointed this out again and again. The leftist elite mostly live by the rules we do but advocate the other stuff as virtue signaling. It reminds me of a tendency I read about back when Princess Diana was the rage in UK. It was a tendency for upper class Britons to adopt the speech of the lower classes. There was no way they wanted to live like them but talking like them was fashionable.

mockturtle said...

Watch for Texas to start after Scotus shreds the constitutuon by dismissing their claim...

We were informed years ago on a tour of the Texas Capitol in Austin that Texas does, indeed, have the legal right to secede and that option was part of their statehood agreement.

mockturtle said...

Oh, I agree that the red districts shouldn't secede. We are America. The blue districts should secede. Perhaps Canada would take them. :-)

rcocean said...

RUSH: We’re having more fun than a human being should be allowed to have here, despite the fact that people on the left for 30 years continue to make things up about me. They continue to put words in my mouth that were never there, that I never said.

I just got a note from my brother. “I’d love to clock these people.” Yeah, we all would, but how do we stop it? This is a case in point. You can’t stop it. There’s no way you can stop it. All you can do, in my case we got the archives to go back and prove them wrong. The real reason this is a big deal is because it’s right here in this headline, at BizPac Review, and there’s all kinds of stories on this. “Rush Limbaugh Hits A Nerve, Believes America Is Likely Heading ‘Toward Secession.'”

rcocean said...

Everytime the wapo/Nyt writes about Rush limbaugh they lie. Every. Single.Time.

I'm Not Sure said...

"Everytime the wapo/Nyt writes about Rush limbaugh they lie. Every. Single.Time."

Just Rush?

rcocean said...

As for secession. Looking back, Lincoln's desire to keep the Union together through a war, was a BIG mistake. It would've been better if this country had split into several different sections or confederacies instead of being ruled by Washington DC.

I'd be much better today if the west coast became its own country and the same is true of the Northeast. New England joining canada would be a great solution to the bitter divide.

rcocean said...

Minnesota should also leave and join Canada.

Greg The Class Traitor said...

Earnest Prole said...
Let me mention once again: I divide my time between the bluest of blue America in the San Francisco East Bay and the Occupied State of Jefferson in deep red Northern California, and in neither place have I ever heard a single person utter a single word that could remotely be construed as a desire to kill their fellow Americans in a Second Civil War, or express any interest whatsoever in splitting the country into two or more pieces.

Really? No one's talked about "Truth and Reconciliation Commissions" to go after Trump supporters, or people who worked in the Trump Admin? No one's talked about harassing Trump officials?

You must move around in quite the bubble

rcocean said...

Btw, is there anything more laughable than our DC/media elite expressing horror at secession? Because what? They're full of patriotism? LOL! They can't even say the word.

Let the America haters have their own country.

rcocean said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
bagoh20 said...

If it was clear that such a move would seriously damage people in both separate states, does anybody really think that would matter to the left? They burn down their own communities, they impoverish their own citizens, and throughout history their ideology has led to the murder and starvation of millions. They always tell themselves it will be different this time, because they are good people with a just cause. How do you reason with that?

Achilles said...

steve uhr said...

I'm all for letting the parasitic states going it alone.

You are really stupid.

It isn't the States that will be cutting themselves off. Everywhere else in Washington state hates King/Pierce/Thurston counties.

San Francisco and Los Angeles and the rest of the I5 corridor on the West coast is just a line of scattered islands of tyranny in a free country.

You wont get to keep the whole state of California. Most of it wants to succeed from the state.

I'm Not Sure said...

"Btw, is there anything more laughable than our DC/media elite expressing horror at secession?"

They express horror at the prospect of dwindling numbers of people to rule over.

Christy said...

I have heard rumors of a big plan for truckers to invade DC for the inauguration of Biden, blocking roads in. They're rather irate about the idea of shutting down fracking, and want to demonstrate how much cities rely on truckers bringing in goods. I'm charmed by the idea, but, thinking long term, wonder ultimately how one can blockade a city with waterways.

Achilles said...

It is fun watching Boeing move all of their production out of Washington State.

Amazon is fleeing across the lake from south lake union to Bellevue.

As time goes on the productive parts of society constantly flee the places controlled by the left.

And once there the refugees poison the place they fled to.

That pattern will be broken at some point.

Achilles said...

Christy said...

I have heard rumors of a big plan for truckers to invade DC for the inauguration of Biden, blocking roads in. They're rather irate about the idea of shutting down fracking, and want to demonstrate how much cities rely on truckers bringing in goods. I'm charmed by the idea, but, thinking long term, wonder ultimately how one can blockade a city with waterways.

Boats on rivers are not good places to be in a conflict situation.

And the United States literally feeds the world.

No country in the world can help New York if the midwest decides to stop sending food. In fact the world wide famine that would result from such an activity would be pretty crazy.

Gunner said...

It used to be a "baseless claim" that Jussie Smollett was a hate hoaxer.

It used to be a "baseless claim" that Nick Sandmann was libeled and slandered.

tim maguire said...

In real life, almost everyone I hear talking about secession is left-wing. Only on the internet do I hear the right-wing version. Both groups are tunnel-visioned nutcases, but the media's being predictably dishonest if they are portraying this as a right-wing thing.

BrianE said...

Ultimately, this is spiritual problem.

Belief in a Creator, or not.

If not, then you are left trying to create heaven on earth. Hence the progressive movement distilled down to a set of rules that create that. What happens are distortions of human nature (or the attempted efforts to create a new human nature) that can only be ruled by the most authoritarian regime not even imagined yet.

If you believe in the God of The Bible, your mission is to prepare yourself, and everyone that will accept the message for the future. Doesn't mean we don't have an obligation to this world and how our lives are ordered, but it certainly doesn't make sense to abandon the foundations of society that has worked for thousands of years.

In my mind these are the fundamental differences that make me want to separate my part of the world from those who seem to have gone full crazy.

There is a movement in Washington state to create the state of Liberty (Eastern Washington). I would be fine with seceding from the West side of the state, along with eastern Oregon and Norther Idaho, but not likely. The leftist side of the state would never allow it. It was a pipe dream, as once the left has control (progress toward utopia) they never seem to want to give any of it up.

Freder Frederson said...

Let me mention once again: I divide my time between the bluest of blue America in the San Francisco East Bay and the Occupied State of Jefferson in deep red Northern California, and in neither place have I ever heard a single person utter a single word that could remotely be construed as a desire to kill their fellow Americans in a Second Civil War, or express any interest whatsoever in splitting the country into two or more pieces.

Well, there are certainly commenters on this blog that express such an interest. Achilles frequently fantasizes about hanging lefties from lamp posts. Bruce Hayden went into exquisite detail about the ammunition he would make to kill lefties. And they are just the tip of the iceberg.

Freder Frederson said...

No country in the world can help New York if the midwest decides to stop sending food. In fact the world wide famine that would result from such an activity would be pretty crazy.

And what would the midwest do if crop subsidies and insurance suddenly ended? They would be fucked worse than NYC. More money flows from the cities to rural areas. That is just a fact. In fact the counties that Biden won account for about 70% of U.S. GDP.

Rory said...

"The areas that want to secede or be divorced from the liberals are spotty all across the country. There are pockets and large geographical swaths of RED leaning populations. But...the idea that there could be one cohesive geographical NEW Red Country is not going to happen."

I think that if the coastal areas are spun off, then the normal areas can be successful at moderating Chicago, Detroit, Minneapolis, along with the crazy college towns. It's the coastal areas that are the leftist dead weight.

I don't think what's going on is peculiarly American. I look at the mega-countries - the US, Russia, China, and the EU - and I see an inexorable momentum of contempt by the bureaucracy (including education) for citizens. Aside from federalism, I don't see any way to render that contempt harmless. And our leftists abhor any federalist considerations.

dbp said...

"...baseless claims of election fraud..." is WP's jargon for blowing smoke up our asses.

Earnest Prole said...

San Francisco and Los Angeles and the rest of the I5 corridor on the West coast is just a line of scattered islands of tyranny in a free country. You wont get to keep the whole state of California. Most of it wants to succeed from the state.

The vast majority of California's land has a Republican majority. Furthermore, fully half the state is owned by the federal government. California is going nowhere, regardless of the dopey fantasies of the left and right.

hstad said...

Secessionism is just another concept which makes no sense in the USA. Why? Easy! In 2 years, the voters have the opportunity to partially correct their voting mistakes. The voters did it to Obama in his 1st term. The voters will do it again to Biden (should he become President) in his term.

Earnest Prole said...

Well, there are certainly commenters on this blog that express such an interest. Achilles frequently fantasizes about hanging lefties from lamp posts. Bruce Hayden went into exquisite detail about the ammunition he would make to kill lefties. And they are just the tip of the iceberg.

I believe I said the same thing here a few hours back.

mockturtle said...

Brian E observes: There is a movement in Washington state to create the state of Liberty (Eastern Washington). I would be fine with seceding from the West side of the state, along with eastern Oregon and Norther Idaho, but not likely. The leftist side of the state would never allow it. It was a pipe dream, as once the left has control (progress toward utopia) they never seem to want to give any of it up.

What would prevent them from just doing it? You and others who want to do this, as you say, in eastern OR, should sit down and list what mechanisms are actually involved. Sure, the Feds may not recognize Liberty as a state at first but they might have to after a while. After all, you can keep your address, including your zip code, you're still American citizens. If you get your mail to Liberty, 99XXX it will still get there. Just a wild idea. Having lived on both sides of WA state, I'm with you 100%.

mockturtle said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Jim at said...

Sounds good to me. As it is now blue states fund red states with fed taxes. See how they do without that excess money in their coffers.

You won't be so fucking smug when we cut off your food supply. And power. And water.

Nonapod said...

Secessionism is just another concept which makes no sense in the USA. Why? Easy! In 2 years, the voters have the opportunity to partially correct their voting mistakes. The voters did it to Obama in his 1st term. The voters will do it again to Biden (should he become President) in his term.

But what happens when people no longer trust that the election system is fair? What if people believe that their vote isn't being counted due to a corrupt process? Why would they expect to ever win in 2 years or 4 or ever?

Danno said...

Blogger rcocean said...Minnesota should also leave and join Canada.

Only the Twin Cities and sympathetic suburbs should leave. Especially, Edina, home of that cake-eater, Steve Uhr, where limousine libtardation has increased over the years. Leave the decent suburbs, exurbs, rural areas and iron range to stay with America.

Freder Frederson said...

What do most of those states have in common? Either military bases, lots of retirees on social security, or both. It's an utterly dishonest claim to say that blue states fund red states.

Well, no and no. Mississippi, West Virginia and Kentucky are hardly retirement hot spots. Only Kentucky has major military bases.

Lurker21 said...


The people on each side get along with each other only slightly better than they do with the people on the other side. You need the other half of the country to save you from your own allies. Bankers and brokers who voted for Biden aren't too keen to be cooped up with BLM and Antifa. And ordinary people in the Blue states don't want to be left alone with the tech, entertainment, and financial moguls who fund their candidates. Northern and Western Republicans may not love what Southern Republicans want to do. People who just want to be left alone, aren't in love with those who have their own ambitious plans for building Conservamerica. Fundamentalists and secular rightists, free traders and protectionists aren't going to be having any love fests.

When people get political they start "thinking" and "believing" things that they don't really think or believe. You can see this in those silly Internet ideological quizzes. People feel compelled to pick the obvious right-wing or left-wing answers even if it's impractical or impossible or absurd. Those who aren't political can be more sensible about such things (if they would actually think about them), but politically involved people (and elected officials nowadays) tend to paint themselves into a corner by claiming to have beliefs which become ever more polarized and polarizing.

Achilles said...

Earnest Prole said...

" Well, there are certainly commenters on this blog that express such an interest. Achilles frequently fantasizes about hanging lefties from lamp posts. Bruce Hayden went into exquisite detail about the ammunition he would make to kill lefties. And they are just the tip of the iceberg."

I believe I said the same thing here a few hours back.

And it was dishonest when you said it too.

I am not fantasizing about anything. I am commenting on it's inevitability.

I don't want to go there again. I saw what countries like that are. It is terrible. I saw pregnant women get shot. Pulled burning children out of cars. I hope to not be involved in that.

You people wantonly destroy the very systems that made the United States an island of peace and security in a world of shit and violence.

I don't believe in Karma. But it would be a better world if you people suffered for your actions rather than the mostly poor people who will likely suffer instead.

mockturtle said...

It's the Left who are threatening us with violence, not vice versa. We will only resort to such measures as a means to defend ourselves, our families, our property and our Constitutional rights. 'Property' can include firearms, I might add.

Earnest Prole said...

But it would be a better world if you people suffered for your actions rather than the mostly poor people who will likely suffer instead.

I’m not sure where you’re from but “you people” is not how we Americans address our fellow citizens.

Michelle Dulak Thomson said...

Freder Frederson,

Well, no and no. Mississippi, West Virginia and Kentucky are hardly retirement hot spots. Only Kentucky has major military bases.

But Mississippi and West Virginia are very poor states. As I've already said, redistributing wealth from the wealthy to the impoverished is what progressivism is supposed to be all about. Why does that suddenly change when the impoverished don't want to do exactly as the wealthy tell them to?

It's What's the Matter With Kansas? all over again. Edsall finds a disconnect when people in KS vote for culturally-conservative policies while ignoring that they're "voting against their own [economic, natch] self-interest." Wealthy social liberals in high-tax states are also "voting against their self-interest," but Edsall can't see that they, like conservative Kansans, are sacrificing their economic well-being for cultural positions they care about. He can't see it because he himself is both socially and culturally liberal.

Lurker21 said...

One advantage of being transcontinental is if something goes wrong in one part of the country - natural disasters, economic slumps, etc. - things aren't bad in other parts of the country and it's not that hard to recover.

If the country had split up 150 years ago, likely we'd remain a backwater, and not a global leader. That may sound attractive, but backwaters tend to become playgrounds where foreign powers wreak havoc on the locals.

Now that we are already engaged in conflict with China, it would be folly to split up the country. You might think you'll have everything your way in your new little country, but ultimately you'll have things Xi's way.

Earnest Prole said...

The people on each side get along with each other only slightly better than they do with the people on the other side. You need the other half of the country to save you from your own allies.

This is the wisest comment in the thread. For the past twenty years in the San Francisco East Bay I’ve seen a small group of Antifa communists and radicals repeatedly beat the holy hell out of progressives and mainstream Democrats at justice marches for the crime of requesting non-violence or taking photographs or video. Althouse commenters think Antifa’s violence is directed at them, but in fact it is directed at the very heart of the Establishment Left in the bluest cities in America. The only time Antifa pays attention to their purported target, “fascists,” is when right-of-center expeditionaries oblige them and commute to the city.

Jupiter said...

Blogger Earnest Prole said...
"I’m not sure where you’re from but “you people” is not how we Americans address our fellow citizens."

You're pretty upset about forms of address, for a guy who thinks a stolen Presidential election is no big deal. How should we address our new Democrat owners? "Sir"? "Master"? "Your Highness"? Perhaps "Comrade"? Instruct me, EP.

Whiskeybum said...

Freder Frederson said...

More money flows from the cities to rural areas. That is just a fact.

#1 - That is in a sense a tautology - money is going tend to move in that direction in general because it flows from the many to the few. But is that also supported on a per capita basis?

#2 - You speak only of rural and urban. There is a huge 'red' population between these two extremes in the suburbs.

3# - People are delusional if they think that this situation (to the extent that it actually exists currently) would stay that way in perpetuity if there was some kind of actual divide. Think of the large companies that are moving out of blue areas; many smaller ones too. You don't think that a 'red' America could set up a competing stock market to the NYSE? It would be easier today than ever. You don't think Texas or some other red states could spawn smaller, geographically spaced 'silicon valleys' if necessary to their commerce? Easier than you may think. Certainly easier than NYC setting up farms to feed its population, or mining in Central Park.

Churchy LaFemme: said...

You don't think Texas or some other red states could spawn smaller, geographically spaced 'silicon valleys' if necessary to their commerce?

North Carolina did that: RTP.

Now it's a blue state..

Earnest Prole said...

How should we address our new Democrat owners?

Here’s my advice: Don’t respond the way Democrats responded when they very sincerely believed the 2016 election was stolen. Not only is it bad for the country, it’s a bad look.

Greg The Class Traitor said...

hstad said...
Secessionism is just another concept which makes no sense in the USA. Why? Easy! In 2 years, the voters have the opportunity to partially correct their voting mistakes.


YouTube has announced that they will no longer allow anyone to post a video to YouTube that alleges vote fraud in the 2020 election.

The Tech overlords and press suppressed the Hunter Biden corruption information until when it's useful to dump Joe and replace him with Harris.

You think they're going to let us have a free and fair election in 2022, if the get away with stealing this one? Are you really that stupid?

Original Mike said...

"Here’s my advice: Don’t respond the way Democrats responded when they very sincerely believed the 2016 election was stolen."

I honestly don't believe they believed it. I have more respect for their intelligence (if not their integrity) than that.

Earnest Prole said...

I honestly don't believe they believed it. I have more respect for their intelligence (if not their integrity) than that.

Yesterday I linked the polling from the Wall Street Journal: Two-thirds of Democrats believe Russia literally hacked our voting machines and changed the vote totals to ensure Trump’s victory.

Think of it as the pre-Kraken, red instead of blue. Just as stupid and just as sincere.

Original Mike said...

Then my assessment of their intelligence is off-base. They're fucking idiots.

Though in their defense, the press lied to them. For four long years.

mockturtle said...

So, Ernest, it should follow that we will proceed apace with impeachment hearings once Biden is in office. Only fair, right?

Hanoi Paris Hilton said...

If you'll allow me a long posting... For some years I've participated in a Portlandia-based group of ex/retired-academics, Peace Corps and international NGO veterans, etc., all predictably solidly over on the prog left. Their former weekly meetings in meat space went virtual some months ago whenthe COVID freak-out arrived. My previous presentations were focused on water resources politics in Southeast Asia, on which I hold some expertise. Here's an extract from the blurb announcing last night's ZOOM-intermediated event, which I thought didn't bode well:
____

"Robert Reich recently said: 'When this nightmare is over, we need a Truth and Reconciliation Commission. It would erase Trump’s lies, comfort those who have been harmed by his hatefulness, and name every official, politician, executive, and media mogul whose greed and cowardice enabled this catastrophe.” And The Nation recently wrote: 'We need a form of truth and reconciliation commission precisely because our normal institutions have failed. We need to understand how that failure happened, who is responsible, and who should face justice. . . .

The 'reconciliation' part of a 'commission' is just as important as the 'truth' part. We still have to have a society with these Trump people, and that can’t happen until we understand what they’ve done and feel measures have been taken to protect us from them again."
_____

The participants yammered on about the boundless delusions and stupidity of the Trumpistas and spoke psuedo-knowingly about the "conservative media" and the strangulated and deluded "conservative mindset" —and also the persistent justified guilt and derangement of US Vietnam war survivors— but I doubt whether any of them really read or watched anything from the right-leaning online intelligentsia (to include sites such as this); nor actually ever once spoke as equals with thoughtful conservatives: or with real-life VN vets, for that matter. I was ready to pull the plug about ten minutes in, and then the idea arose semi-spontaneously amongst severa;l of us (these were not stupid people) that since the hideous Trumpistas were never, ever going to buy into any Truth and Reconciliation (T&R) enterprise was fully predicated in advance the Right's total abnegation and apologia —which they knew wasn't forthcoming on such terms— maybe each side could stage their own internal T&R initiatives?

The latest upsurge in Portlandia Antifa craziness was the ongoing and ugly Mississippi Street eviction confrontations; which appeared much less beloved by far, by the left intelligentsia who suddenly found much to criticize in the local politicos' collapse in deference to "95% peaceful protesters'" agenda, but were now backing away from that. And as Prof. Althouse has not been shy to tell us —and in my jaundiced view, increasingly obnoxiously so— there would be no shortage of content for a T&R thing on our side.

I closed my participation by saying I'd post this flyer on several of the right-leaning sites that I follow closely, and suggested that they do the same, and we'd compare responses.

I don't underestimate the risks coming further apart at the seams and it seems that parallel T&Rs might serve us all very well, as a plausible mechn aism to back away from the abyss and re-establish some modicum of national unity and purpose.

Earnest Prole said...

So, Ernest, it should follow that we will proceed apace with impeachment hearings once Biden is in office.

I suspect the left side of the Democratic Party may be willing to join Republicans in investigating Biden as a pure power play.

Original Mike said...

"I suspect the left side of the Democratic Party may be willing to join Republicans in investigating Biden as a pure power play."

Fuck that. They deserve Joe.

mockturtle said...

Hanoi Paris Hilton: No one was talking 'Truth & Reconciliation' during the past four years and now suddenly it's a thing? Sorry, it's not going to happen.

Original Mike said...

"I closed my participation by saying I'd post this flyer on several of the right-leaning sites that I follow closely, and suggested that they do the same, and we'd compare responses."

My initial response is to request of your buddies an outline of the crimes committed by conservatives, because they escape me.

Kansas Scout said...

You live in a bubble. Its a very realistic notion. We will not submit.

Hanoi Paris Hilton said...

I think that Mister Turtle and Mister Original somehow completely let my point fly way above their heads, and I hope some other commenters here can tune into what I was actually trying to get across. It's not our moral and intellectuals betters on the prog side that get to decide what our T&R initiative chooses to deal with; and indeed should only go forward if the progs launch a seperate-but-equal internal T&R of their own (to which our contributions are also unsought).

mockturtle said...

No, Hanoi, I got your point. I have no desire to reconcile with the left. None. Zip. Nada.

mockturtle said...

And I'm not a 'Mister'.

Hanoi Paris Hilton said...

Sorry, Mock, about the mis-gendering. But if reconciliation is absolutely off the table, I sure hope you have a substantial ammo stash and get to the range fairly frequently.

Marcus Bressler said...

If you are a Democrat, you are dead to me.

Trump was the best president in my lifetime and even if he didn't do all the great things he has done while up against the corrupt and vile liberals, he did the finest thing in humanity's name: Hillary Rodham Clinton will NEVER be president.

God Bless Donald Trump and God Bless America

Original Mike said...

You can't call people racists and Nazis and then expect to reconcile with them.

mockturtle said...

Hanoi warns: Sorry, Mock, about the mis-gendering. But if reconciliation is absolutely off the table, I sure hope you have a substantial ammo stash and get to the range fairly frequently.

Is that a threat?

Hanoi Paris Hilton said...

Assuredly not on my part, but what do you think the actual outcomes would be, absent a mwechanism for reconciliation in the near term? I've seen armed mayhem firsthand and that was more than sufficient!

It took the communists in Viet Nam thirty years before they allowed their former ARVN enemies to access their war cemeteries and restore the rights of the widows and orphans to restore and re-consecrate the desecrated gravesites of their lost loved ones.

The progs, by contrast, have been waiting 180 years for the likes of ex-Hizzoner Soglin to really get the ball rolling with desecrating the memorial to the Confederate losers mistreated to death in the former Madison POW camp, and to go on from there to righteously trashing Lincoln, Washington, and Jefferson for criminal unwokeness.

Rockport Conservative said...

, Watch for Texas to start after SCOTUS shreds the constitution by dismissing their claim...
Bingo, Maybe it was Col. West Rush was talking to.
Chairman Allen West’s Response to SCOTUS Decision
"Perhaps law-abiding states should bond together and form a Union of states that will abide by the constitution.”
The Texas GOP will always stand for the Constitution and for the rule of law even while others don’t."


And he is just an immigrant to Texas.

Readering said...

He is a loon.

Ismail said...

Nice blogger template and your design is good.

Michael McNeil said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Michael McNeil said...

“Let me mention once again: I divide my time between the bluest of blue America in the San Francisco East Bay and the Occupied State of Jefferson in deep red Northern California ….”

I live in the Occupied State of Jefferson and have family in the Bluest of Blue areas.

Recently (a half year ago) I moved from a “Bluest of Blue” region (California's Santa Cruz County, south of San Francisco, where after attending UCSC '78-80 I'd lived for the last 4 decades) — into Jeffersonian territory (Siskiyou County) in far far northern Calif.

[Just calling the latter area “Northern California” I think is problematic, by the way, because — even though there are large areas of (e.g.) Siskiyou County in Calif. where Portland, OR (on the other side of the state!), is closer than San Francisco — nonetheless the latter city blithely and routinely considers itself the epitome of “Northern California.”]

Earlier this year I picked up a beloved plot (quarter-section) of land — straddling the shoulder of a mountain, overlooking a rushing (this time of year) river — from my ex. (I'd been a silent partner of hers concerning this particular parcel for nearly a quarter-century; said ex still possesses other exquisite pieces, but now I've bought her out on this one.) As a consequence, my partner of the last half-decade and I are working hard at developing it to build a house to live there.

As what might be called a second-order effect of my partner's and my move here, however, is that we now live in a precinct which in 2016 went for Trump vs. Hillary by 68/24%!

I haven't yet seen a breakdown by precincts in Calif. for the 2020 election, but in 2016 Siskiyou County, for instance, overall went for Trump/Clinton by 55/35%. (Santa Cruz County, my old home, contrariwise, did the opposite: going for Clinton vs. Trump by 74/17%).

In 2020 in Siskiyou County Trump garnered an even larger percentage than before — but Biden's vote also (and dramatically) went up, so that the 2020 percentages there are Trump/Biden = 57/41%. (In Santa Cruz County in 2020 Biden also did quite a bit better than Clinton in 2016 — while Trump's contest with himself also improved slightly; thus, Biden/Trump there = 79/19%.)

Presenting the above figures for these two exemplar California counties tabularly:

2016 Siskiyou County: 55/35% Trump/Clinton
2020 Siskiyou County: 57/41% Trump/Biden

2016 Santa Cruz County: 17/74% Trump/Clinton
2020 Santa Cruz County: 19/79% Trump/Biden

Now looking at Calif.'s overall statewide results:

2016 Calif. (%ages): 31.62/61.73% Trump/Clinton
2020 Calif. (%ages): 34.33/63.50% Trump/Biden

2016 Calif. (totals): 4.484M/8.754M Trump/Clinton
2020 Calif. (totals): 6.006M/11.110M Trump/Biden

The upshot is that while Biden's total vote in California in 2020 vs. Clinton's in 2016 went up by somewhat more than 2 million votes, Trump's 2020 California vote vs. his vote there in 2016 also increased by more than 1-1/2 million votes — to such an extent that in 2020 Trump for the first time received (1 percentage point) more than 1/3 of the votes cast by all California voters, that is: 34.33%.

So, whenever any two California Democrats encounter each other, they might recall that there's (more than) one Republican (Trump supporter!) in the state for each such Dem pairing. That's a lot of deplorables.

Another conclusion is that the blue and red areas of the state are even more alienated from each other than in 2016.

JAORE said...

"And what would the midwest do if crop subsidies and insurance suddenly ended? "

Likely eat the crops. Are you going to munch on locally sourced concrete?

ken in tx said...

The MSM usually ignore Rush's comments unless they can be misconstrued in a negative way against him.