December 28, 2020

If you've been having trouble with the "Dr. Jill" nomenclature, just see it as a stage name... a sobriquet... a nom de guerre...

This is a solution I'd been thinking about ever since the controversy broke a couple weeks ago (or whenever that was), but I felt pushed over the edge to blog about it when I was driving in my car, listening to the "Bridge" channel on the satellite radio, and this came on:

 

Dr. Hook. That's a stage name. 
The "Hook" name was inspired by Sawyer's eyepatch and a reference to Captain Hook of the Peter Pan fairy tale, although, humorously, Captain Hook was neither a doctor nor wore an eyepatch. Ray Sawyer had lost his right eye in a near-fatal car crash in Oregon in 1967, and thereafter always wore an eyepatch. The eyepatch led some to believe that Sawyer was 'Dr. Hook'....
You can help me fill out the list of pop culture figures who use the honorific "Dr.," but I'll just note Dr. John...

 


.

.. and Dr. Demento...


There are a lot of nicknames and pseudonyms in American culture, and "Dr." is a popular component. No need to act like it's sacrosanct and not available for appropriation at whim. 

ADDED: Dr. Fink! ("Fink joined Prince’s band in 1978, which later became The Revolution.... In 1987, Fink opened his own studio facility in Minneapolis, now called 'The Operating Room'"). Nice view of the doctor — mask and all — at 0:28:

182 comments:

J2 said...

Arthel Lane "Doc" Watson

rhhardin said...

The whole controversy sprang because Dr. Shithead wasn't kidding.

Joe Smith said...

If you watch old Youtube videos of Dr. Hook, especially the live concerts, those guys were having a blast. And so much talent...but the eyepatch guy needs a dentist as well as an ophthalmologist...

If you don't tear up listening to 'Sylvia's Mother,' then you're a sociopath.

I Have Misplaced My Pants said...

All the variations on Dr Pepper

My favorite is Dr Thunder

Also, listen to Yacht Rock. It’s the best.

Joe Smith said...

From my 'era' Dr. J is the first that springs (from the foul line) to mind.

Big Mike said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Roger Sweeny said...

At least she wasn't calling herself doctor because of an honorary degree.

Big Mike said...

No need to act like it's sacrosanct and not available for appropriation at whim.

Actually, yes there is. And that point comes when one is using the title to suggest having actually completed medical school or earned a Ph.D. Degrees that are fairly easy to earn, like the J.D. or D.Ed., and honorary doctorates, none of them counts.

iowan2 said...

There are a lot of nicknames and pseudonyms in American culture, and "Dr." is a popular component.

True enough, but nicknames are provided by your friends, and catch, or don't. My sister highschool boyfriend was Doc. Mainly for his surgical like skill at shortstop. My buddies BIL was Turd. A friend of mine was (is) Boner. He matured and sat on the Schoolboard for several terms. Now into his sixties, most still call him Boner, not sure what his grandkids call him? Appropriating the title Dr, is seeking to elevate yourself in social circles, you business peers know the whole story.

Ann Althouse said...

"Arthel Lane "Doc" Watson"

Wikipedia: "he got the nickname "Doc" during a live radio broadcast when the announcer remarked that his given name Arthel was odd and he needed an easy nickname. A fan in the crowd shouted "Call him Doc!" presumably in reference to the literary character Sherlock Holmes's sidekick Doctor Watson. The name stuck."

Ann Althouse said...

"If you don't tear up listening to 'Sylvia's Mother,' then you're a sociopath."

Written by Shel Silverstein.

Ann Althouse said...

"From my 'era' Dr. J is the first that springs (from the foul line) to mind."

Yes, there may be a lot of sports examples.

MayBee said...

I don't think its the same because she is using her "Dr" to seek power. To wield power. Her husband is about to be the most powerful man in the world, and she is the spokesperson for him.

DavidUW said...

Dr. Dre
Dr. Demento
Dr. Pepper

All more accomplished than Jill Biden.

Rusty said...

Shouldn't there be a nominal nod toward trustworthyness from our political elites? That bein said there were a lot of people in the Clinton administration with noms du politiques. Oddly enough it seems the majority of which are progressives. Could it be that they don't want us to know who they really are?

Birkel said...

Demanding is different.
A stage name is not a demand.

She is the adulterous second Mrs Biden.

Ken B said...

But those folks *use* it as just a nickname. Jill wants to use it as a symbol of deference and acknowledgement.

Ken B said...

Even Birkel gets it.

And to his credit Birkel never insists we call him Weasel, although he earned it.

Darrell said...

"Doc" Severinsen, of the Tonight Show.

Ken B said...

If Prince had demanded we bow then Althouse would have a point.

Dan in Philly said...

Remember those Dr pepper commercials, where all the people who had the nickname doctor would say "Trust me, I'm a doctor!"

I can see something like that in Jill's future.

J. Farmer said...

The poet Shel Silverstein wrote much of Dr. Hooks' songs. My absolute favorite is The Ballad of Lucy Jordan, especially Marianne Faithfull's rendition on her album Broken English, one of my favorites. Silverstein also penned A Boy Named Sue. I don't think there was a kid in my elementary school who did not read Where the Sidewalk Ends. I remember our school library having a waiting list to check it out.

Back to the subject at hand. If Drs. Dre, John, or Hook demanded they be called "Dr." I'd also think they were assholes. And I remember everyone shitting on Prince when he changed his stage name to a symbol. How do you casually refer to Queen Latifah? Queen? Latifah? Dana?

Curious George said...

Doc Rivers: Basketball
Doc Holliday: Gambler, gunfighter, and an actual doctor, if you consider a dentist a doctor.

Iman said...

I saw Dr. John in concert several times over the years... definitely One of a Kind.

Her's the Doc that never fails to pick me up: https://youtu.be/Td2Bk8qQJZE

Birkel said...

I do think Doctor of Dental Surgery qualifies for the professional title doctor.

J. Farmer said...

The most destructive sobriquet in American politics probably belongs to Edward Mandell House, aka Colonel House.

Joe Smith said...

"Doc Holliday: Gambler, gunfighter, and an actual doctor, if you consider a dentist a doctor."

Who doesn't consider a dentist a doctor?

Btw, Wyatt Earp is my long-lost relative on my mother's side...wish I could grow a mustache like his...

I Have Misplaced My Pants said...

DavidUW, as a Texan, I must insist you correct the period in Dr Pepper. There isn’t one.

CWJ said...

Let's see how far anyone gets calling her Doc Jill.

J. Farmer said...

I saw Dr. John in concert several times over the years... definitely One of a Kind.

In 1973, my parents' first date was to a Cheech & Chong concert that featured Dr. John on the bill. Cheech and Chong were arrested for obscenity during a skit when one pantomimed a dog peeing an a police officer standing at the edge of the stage. They said it was quite a show.

If anyone's ever seen the film National Lampoon's European Vacation and the scene where the Griswalds go shopping for new clothes, the song on the soundtrack is Dr. John doing Italo-disco.

J. Farmer said...

Who doesn't consider a dentist a doctor?

Anti-dentites

PerthJim said...

Don't forget Doctor Feelgood.

And Doctor Robert.

Chuck said...

Dr. Sebastian Gorka.

CWJ said...

"If you've been having trouble with the "Dr. Jill" nomenclature, just see it as a stage name... a sobriquet... a nom de guerre..."

Unless you're really trying hard to rationalize her gauche insistence, why would you. Is that what you're doing?

jeremyabrams said...

We reserve Dr. for medical doctors for a few good reasons. First, according doctors that level of respect encourages them to do their best in treating us. Second, and likely more important, it increases the considerable benefits we gain from the placebo effect. Just walking into a doctor's office and seeing that white coat tells us something is being done about our problem - the best that can be done is being done - and that lifts our spirits and brings on a powerful somatic effect.

Call every PhD a doctor, and that gets diluted.

Oh, and Jill never presented herself as a nom de plume kind of doctor.

Ann Althouse said...

The idea that we need to save "Dr." for medical doctors needs to be examined. Why is it important? Is it even possible?

Answers: It's of some but not monumental importance. It's not possible.

Conclusion: Loosen up, people. A lady has a sobriquet. So the hell what?

Joe Smith said...

"They said it was quite a show."

They remember it? I call bullshit : )

Ann Althouse said...

She doesn't come from a privileged background. Her father was a bank teller. Her grandfather was an immigrant from Sicily. She took a long time getting her degree. Yeah, she's privileged now, but she's engaging in some behavior that's more of a working class thing. It's looked *down* on by the elite. So don't look down! It's MORE egalitarian to go with her nickname... especially since she's not being snooty about it. It's vaguely dumb, but why would you want to sniff at that? I swear I wrote "sniff at that" before remembering Joe Biden's penchant for smelling females!

Bricap said...

If Dr. Ruth had ever become First Lady, what would have happened?

I am reminded of an anecdote from when Reagan attended his first NATO meeting, and after a seemingly endless back and forth with everyone's formal titles affixed whenever addressing one another, he said something like "Let's just use each other's first names. I'm Ron."

Birkel said...

No.
An adulterous woman wants undue respect.
And I am under no obligation to give it to her.

She is not a lady.
She is not a doctor.
If she wants a nom de guerre, let her start a fucking war.

Birkel said...

I reject the notion of privilege as it is now used and therefore reject Althouse's insistence that I consider this non-thing about the adulterous Mrs Biden.

Joe Smith said...

"She took a long time getting her degree."

Not sure why it took so long.

Not snooty about it? She insists on being called 'Dr.'

Sounds pretty snooty to me.

Her 'dissertation' (it wasn't) was full of errors. It might as well have come from a Cracker Jack box.

Typically, the left defends her because all they care about is credentials, not accomplishments. The woman can't do fifth-grade math.

My friend has a PhD from Stanford in hydrogeology. Another is an orthopedic surgeon.

Nobody calls either of them doctor except the surgeon, and then only at work.

boatbuilder said...

"Two degrees in be-bop, a phd in swing
He's the master of rhythm he's a rock and roll king."

"Dr." Jill has a B.S. in BS and a Ph.D in acting.

Joe Smith said...

"If Dr. Ruth had ever become First Lady, what would have happened?"

No idea, but it would have been entertaining as hell : )

Deevs said...

This has been an informative comments thread. I now know the origin of Doc Watson's nickname and that there's not period in Dr Pepper.

I didn't pay much attention to this "controversy", either. Who's demanding she be called Dr. Jill Biden? Jill Biden herself, or just some ridiculous people on Twitter?

I think the only two places where there's an expectation to be addressed as doctor is in an examination room and in a classroom if the professor insists on it. Wait, I take it back. I'm working on finishing a PhD in Mechanical Engineering. I refer to my advisor as Dr. C. That's at his request, and the student/advisor relationship warrants it. I have no intention to be called doctor once I graduate.

Tom T. said...

There's Dr. Teeth from the Muppet Show.

J. Farmer said...

We reserve Dr. for medical doctors for a few good reasons.

But mostly because "doctor" became synonymous with "physician." Oddly, in the UK "doctor" was a way of distinguishing medical practitioners from surgeons. In the UK, surgeons are generally not referred to as "Dr."

Conclusion: Loosen up, people. A lady has a sobriquet. So the hell what?

I agree. But this issue became a social media thing after Siobhan O’Dwyer chastised Qantas Airlines on Twitter for their agents referring to her as "Ms. O'Dwyer" rather than "Dr. O'Dwyer." Whether this is unfairly related to Dr. Biden, I don't know.

Joe Smith said...

"I'm working on finishing a PhD in Mechanical Engineering."

I wish you success in pursuing a field which is very difficult and rigorous.

You can call yourself 'Dr.' whenever you want, and it will have been hard-earned.

Of course, you probably won't...

Indigo Red said...

"Conclusion: Loosen up, people. A lady has a sobriquet. So the hell what?"

Have we hit the sobriquet wall?

Big Mike said...

Yeah, she's privileged now, but she's engaging in some behavior that's more of a working class thing.

Writes Althouse without any evidence for the truth of her statement, merely supposition (as in wild-assed guess).

I’m not going to guess whether you would go to such lengths to come up with a Bull shit excuse to rationalize comparable behavior on the part of a prominent Republican woman. I’m pretty sure I know the answer.

J. Farmer said...

@Big Mike:

I’m not going to guess whether you would go to such lengths to come up with a Bull shit excuse to rationalize comparable behavior on the part of a prominent Republican woman. I’m pretty sure I know the answer.

I don't think it's Jill Biden's behavior that Ann is that interested in, but the reaction it engenders in others. Ann is making an anti-elitist case given that much of the scorn is related to the fact that "Ed.D." is considered lest prestigious than a PhD. I recall Ann being pretty defensive about Sarah Palin and the elite scorn that was being heaped on her.

Birkel said...

I did not realize the scorn of having a baby with a birth defect was similar in any way to the scorn of demanding we call a person by an unfitting name.

To each their own, I suppose.
But I think the adulterous Jill Biden deserves no respect.

Bruce Hayden said...

“ I do think Doctor of Dental Surgery qualifies for the professional title doctor”

Definitely. Back when I was applying to grad school, Dental school was harder than Medical school to get in and to get through.

“ Call every PhD a doctor, and that gets diluted.”

Sister in law has a PhD, as do 2 of her 3 siblings. But the only “Doctor” in the family was their father (MD, PhD). At least until he died. We use Doctor to address her, in a humorous way, using a derivation of her first name.

Ken B said...

But it isn’t a sobriquet. It’s a demand.

Ice Nine said...

>>Ann Althouse said...
A lady has a sobriquet. So the hell what?<<

Well, nothing, I guess. Notwithstanding the fact that the "Doctor Jill Biden" bit is not remotely a sobriquet.

Skippy Tisdale said...

Conclusion: Loosen up, people. A lady has a sobriquet. So the hell what?

Moron is my sobriquet.

mikee said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Skippy Tisdale said...

Yeah, she's privileged now

Bitch has been privileged since June 17, 1977.

Bruce Hayden said...

“ Wait, I take it back. I'm working on finishing a PhD in Mechanical Engineering. I refer to my advisor as Dr. C. That's at his request, and the student/advisor relationship warrants it. I have no intention to be called doctor once I graduate.”

Don’t say never. My kid uses it to distinguish them from another at work with a similar first name. When I was an in-house patent attorney at a major electronics company, a surprising number of the PhDs there insisted on being addressed as Dr. There, the expectation was not that they had an MD, but rather a PhD, in probably EE (though my favorite inventor there had his in theoretical physics). If they got too obnoxious about it, we (the JDs) would insist on it too - but only from the obnoxious PhDs. After all, we were all on the company’s “doctorate degree” pay scale.

Out of curiosity, where is your research? For those who haven’t been around the ME field for awhile, it now covers a bunch of stuff that is only peripherally related to traditional mechanical engineering. Some of it is really out there. Since this is directly applicable, that is where my kid went, with their research involving laser spectroscopy, which requires expertise in quantum physics, optics, and fluid dynamics. They got recruited into their program due to their Physics (and Math) degree(s).

Arashi said...

BS, MS, PhD - bullshit, more shit, piled higher and deeper. So an EdD could be excrement delivered?

She is Jill Biden, wife of the poor, demented Joe Biden, who has been selected to be president asterisk, place holder for the democrat party for president.

Why, exactly, should I show her or him any respect? They show me none, and in fact encourage others to do me harm. A pox on them both.

mikee said...

The lowest ranking graduate of the worst med school in the world is called Doctor after graduating. Jill Biden, Ed. D., demands the same honorific, on just about the same basis, in Education studies.

The MDs face malpractice lawsuits should they fail to treat patients at the level of care currently considered standard. Dr. Jill, I suspect, faces no similar accountability regarding her behavior as a teacher. She certainly demonstrated no accountability by letting Dementia Joe run for office.

Joe Smith said...

"Yeah, she's privileged now..."

If her father was a bank teller, that was privileged where I grew up.

The guy across the street was a mid-level functionary for a forgettable company and they were the 'rich family.'

The cop next door was doing good (overtime?) because they had a color TV...only one in the neighborhood.

Balfegor said...

I always referred to my professors in college as Dr., but I think that may be a Southern thing that I learned growing up (even though my college was in Southern California). But they were all PhDs. I didn't call my law school professors Dr. because a lot of them weren't -- I think a lot of them were just JDs:

Re: Bruce Hayden:

If they got too obnoxious about it, we (the JDs) would insist on it too - but only from the obnoxious PhDs. After all, we were all on the company’s “doctorate degree” pay scale.

Occasionally you have JDs pretending we have a real doctorate. I understand joking around about it, but it's just embarrassing when people say it seriously (honestly, I have a similar, though somewhat milder aversion to US attorneys' habit of titling themselves Esquire). I think some of the advice to Madame Biden here is based on that impulse. PhD's and MDs can be Doctor. The rest of us are just Mister.

J. Farmer said...

I did not realize the scorn of having a baby with a birth defect was similar in any way to the scorn of demanding we call a person by an unfitting name.

Is that what people were laughing at with the Tina Fey impression? I thought it had something to do with the way she talked and her perceived intelligence and level of understanding.

I don't think Ann is saying Jill Biden deserves respect or is even really talking about Jill Biden. I think she's talking about the reaction people have to her use of the honorific.

Bruce Hayden said...

“ If they got too obnoxious about it, we (the JDs) would insist on it too - but only from the obnoxious PhDs.”

The other place where I was addressed professionally as Doctor was in dealing with foreign patent counsel. Here, we use “Esquire”, but much of the rest of the world addresses JDs as “Doctor”. They tend to be more formal. The Germans may be the worse - a friend would be addressed as Professor, Doctor, Doctor, Lt Col, whenever he took a sabbatical at the Max Planck Institute there.

Rusty said...

Bruce.
Two of my nephews are MEs. Since I have access to all kinds of cool machine tools there was an open invitation to both of them that if they wanted to learn how to use any of them I'd make the time to teach them. One of them asked uncle rusty if he would teach him to weld. I did. He also asked me if I could teach him how to use a lathe. I did that too. Speeds feeds and tool geometry too. How to use a micrometer. When he was fifteen his dad bought him a junk pick up truck from a gravel quarry. When he got done with it it looked showroom new. He did everything himself. The two of them graduated about the same time. Care to guess which one got the pick of jobs.

Balfegor said...

Re: Althouse:

Yeah, she's privileged now, but she's engaging in some behavior that's more of a working class thing. It's looked *down* on by the elite. So don't look down!

Look, I can feel sympathy for Hyacinth Bucket and her lower middle class pretensions to gentility, but it's still comical for her to insist it's pronounced "Bouquet."

Greg The Class Traitor said...

"Dr. Jill" wants to be called that as a mark of respect.

I don't respect her, and I don't respect the Ed. D. (any of them. Her's is more pathetic than normal, but essentially none of them are worth a damn).

So she's "Whiner Jill"

Iman said...

boatbuilder @12:34pm I be runnin’ around in the shoes of a 🤡 now...

J. Farmer said...

So she's "Whiner Jill"

To be fair, most of the whining is not coming from Jill Biden but her detractors.

Iman said...

Her grandfather was an immigrant from Sicily.

That explains a helluva lot right there...

Balfegor said...

Re: Bruce Hayden:

Here, we use “Esquire”, but much of the rest of the world addresses JDs as “Doctor”.

In Japan, they address Japanese attorneys as "sensei." Foreign attorneys, it's a little variable. I was amused one time when a Japanese attorney and I were talking a client and he addressed the Japanese attorney as "sensei" and then locked up for a moment when addressing me. Normally, he would just call me and my American colleagues "-san", but we were all talking in Japanese, and he knew I was senior to my Japanese colleague. He decided on calling me "-sensei" too but I didn't really care either way.

Greg The Class Traitor said...

Roger Sweeny said...
At least she wasn't calling herself doctor because of an honorary degree.

It more or less IS an "hoary degree".

Her "dissertation equivalent" was a joke, and she got it from a school that got a lot of its funding via her husband, Senator Biden.

I put far more working into an MS than she put into her Ed D.

Inga said...

“No.
An adulterous woman wants undue respect.
And I am under no obligation to give it to her.

She is not a lady.
She is not a doctor.
If she wants a nom de guerre, let her start a fucking war.

I reject the notion of privilege as it is now used and therefore reject Althouse's insistence that I consider this non-thing about the adulterous Mrs Biden.”

I always think of Birkel as Dr Wierdo.

Mark said...

Don't you diminish Jill Biden, M.D. She worked HARD for her degree and is entitled to your respect.

rhhardin said...

The point with mocking Dr Jill is that she's so vulnerable to mocking. She's self-made in that way.

Inga said...

“Conclusion: Loosen up, people. A lady has a sobriquet. So the hell what?”

Worth repeating.

Greg The Class Traitor said...

J. Farmer said...
>> So she's "Whiner Jill"
To be fair, most of the whining is not coming from Jill Biden but her detractors.


No, Farmer, that's being stupid and clueless, not "fair".

The whining is coming from her, and her defenders.

What's coming from her detractors is well earn mockery.

Joe Smith said...

Look, I can feel sympathy for Hyacinth Bucket and her lower middle class pretensions to gentility, but it's still comical for her to insist it's pronounced "Bouquet."

Was watching an episode yesterday...hadn't seen it in years.

Re: 'sensei.' I called my Japanese instructor '-san,' but my friend, who had once used the same teacher and had lived in Japan for 20 years and was fluent, called her '-sensei.'

She didn't mind either way.

Greg The Class Traitor said...

Ann Althouse said...
She doesn't come from a privileged background. Her father was a bank teller. Her grandfather was an immigrant from Sicily. She took a long time getting her degree.

She did "take a long time to get her degree." She got tired of getting letters addressed to "Senator and Mrs Biden", so, as the privileged wife of a Senator, she went to a school whose funding was dependent upon the Senator's support, and demanded that they give her a "doctorate".

They agreed to give her an Ed. D. in exchange for some half-assed work that wouldn't have gotten a passing grade at my high-school. Seriously, this woman can't even successfully add fractions like 1/4 and 3/4.

She turned in a pathetic and obvious hack job, that no one even bothered to read, they just gave her her "doctorate."

There is nothing about the Jill Biden story that marks her as worthy of respect. So she gets none

Inga said...

“To each their own, I suppose.
But I think the adulterous Jill Biden deserves no respect.”

Birkel in his odd fashion, judges Jill Biden as adulterous, yet he has never judged Trump similarly despite Trump cheating on every one of his three wives.

Jim at said...

Jill Biden can call herself anything she wants.
But she cannot demand I do the same.

Rabel said...

"A lady has a sobriquet. So the hell what?"

That's a misinterpretation of the issue. Althouse is too hip to fail to see so.

J. Farmer said...

@Greg The Class Traitor:

No, Farmer, that's being stupid and clueless, not "fair".

The whining is coming from her, and her defenders.


The controversy started over the Wall Street Journal op-ed "Is There a Doctor in the White House? Not if You Need an M.D." by Joseph Epstein

Rabel said...

It hasn't been noted here, but Ray Sawyer, the one eyed musician, died in 2018.

He still didn't make the cover.

J. Farmer said...

@Jim at:

Jill Biden can call herself anything she wants.
But she cannot demand I do the same.


When has she done this?

Bruce Hayden said...

“Occasionally you have JDs pretending we have a real doctorate. I understand joking around about it, but it's just embarrassing when people say it seriously (honestly, I have a similar, though somewhat milder aversion to US attorneys' habit of titling themselves Esquire). I think some of the advice to Madame Biden here is based on that impulse. PhD's and MDs can be Doctor. The rest of us are just Mister.”

Disagree. I think it depends on the circumstances. I mentioned my SIL’s family, where only the MD got to use the title, and not the PhDs. In college, most probably use the more generic “professor”. But in my kid’s HS, a couple of the teachers had real PhDs, and were addressed as Doctor.

Of course, in the US, it is considered gauche for a JD normally to use Doctor. But we don’t call ourselves Esquire either. Most likely, most use Attorney at Law, or some variant, for themselves. Maybe JD instead. It is for everyone else to address us as Esquire (Etc). Rarely with “Mr”, etc - I think because that would too be gauche, since technically we do have doctorate degrees. And, yes, if a MD or PhD addresses me as Mr, I tend to reciprocate. My experience is that most MDs don’t address themselves as Doctor, but rather as MD, but appreciate being addressed as Doctor by others. And then adding honors (e.g. Michael K... MD FACS). Of course, everyone, in medicine, even some of the nurses, have doctorates of sort or another. MDs, DOs, Chiropractors, Podiatrists, Pharmacists, etc. Supposed to be peers. Except to rule them all are the MDs.

Oh, and the other places I used Doctor were when I tried to get free or cheap magazines, and, as I said, dealing with PhDs, working outside academia. I have read plenty of dissertations that wouldn't have merited writing home about. For some, it was just hanging around long enough. Similar to Jill Biden’s EdD. I wasn’t going to be lectured by some pissant engineer about how to do my job, just because he had a PhD, and I didn’t. This wasn’t a problem with the smart ones - they knew that we controlled their bonuses. But sometimes the young stupid ones were trying.

Bruce Hayden said...

“ Don't you diminish Jill Biden, M.D. She worked HARD for her degree and is entitled to your respect.”

Don’t worry. That isn’t the Jill Biden we are talking about - who is Jill Biden, Ed.D.

Francisco D said...

Newt Gingrich earned a History Ph.D. from Tulane back in 1971 when a dissertation was really a dissertation. Jill Biden was a Special Ed teacher who was gifted an Ed.D. for a semi-literate long essay.

I cannot recall any controversy over whether he should have been called Dr. Newt outside the classroom and university at which he taught. Doctoral degrees are relevant only in the context in which they are applied.

tim maguire said...

Did the media circle wagons to defend Dr. Hook’s title?

Blogger MayBee said...I don't think its the same because she is using her "Dr" to seek power. T

Yep. No one should be making excuses for Jill Biden or the people trying to shame us into calling her “doctor.” The title might technically be legitimate, but she’s using it to gain an authority she hadn’t earned. “Dr.” in common usage means medical doctor. Everyone defending her knows this.

Francisco D said...

Regarding my above comment. The same rules apply to MDs. If they are practicing in a medical setting they should be called "Doctor" just as Jill Biden should be called "Doctor" in an education administration setting. To ask people to do so outside of the appropriate context is absurdly pretentious.

catter said...

Dr Squatch,
most notable for their youtube ads:
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=dr+squatch+youtube&docid=608021933474122975&mid=EADA0C4D593F3D21093BEADA0C4D593F3D21093B&view=detail&FORM=VIRE

Francisco D said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
catter said...

@Farmer
Thanks for the timely reminder of The Mysterious Colonel House.
Will Dr Jill play Edith, The Colonel, or both?

Michael said...

As noted by a physicist: no one in the physics department is called Doctor. Everyone in the Education department is called Doctor.

Balfegor said...

Re: Bruce Hayden:

Of course, in the US, it is considered gauche for a JD normally to use Doctor. But we don’t call ourselves Esquire either.

Don't we? I feel like I basically never see the Esquire other than on lawyers' own business cards and signatures. I guess I sometimes see it on the address when sending correspondence to other attorneys, but I usually delete it if the letter is coming from me because I think it's a ridiculous affectation on both ends.

And, yes, if a MD or PhD addresses me as Mr, I tend to reciprocate.

I don't think we're going to have any meeting of the minds on this one. I have a lot of doctors in my family, and a handful of PhDs, and comparing my dinky three-year JD to an MD or a PhD would just be embarrassing. I'm sure there are a lot of PhD programs that are pretty lax, and a lot of dissertations that are unoriginal crap. But the JD isn't remotely on the same level, in terms of intellectual or academic rigour. I mean, if we're talking about the merits behind the degrees, between my JD and my BS in mathematics, the BS took more work and was a lot more of an achievement than the JD. A JD is a respectable certification, sure, but I could never seriously pretend it entitles me to the same academic style as someone who put in the actual time and effort to get a real doctorate, as many of my college classmates did. Or go through med school and residency to become a medical doctor.

That said, the style of address with regard to PhDs in the US is inconsistent -- particularly on the west coast, I think most prefer Mr. over Dr.

Mark said...

Yeah, Bruce. I know.

J. Farmer said...

@catter:

@Farmer
Thanks for the timely reminder of The Mysterious Colonel House.
Will Dr Jill play Edith, The Colonel, or both?


Ha. It'd be hard to play both given how much Edith Wilson disliked House and pushed her husband to break from him.

Michael said...

I read a slice of her dissertation somewhere. It was marginally literate.

J. Farmer said...

@tim maguire:

Yep. No one should be making excuses for Jill Biden or the people trying to shame us into calling her “doctor.”

Who is trying to shame you into calling her "doctor"? This entire controversy arose because Epstein tried to shame Biden into not using it. I generally agree with Epstein's take regarding how it comes off, but if Jill Biden wants to be pretentious about credentialism, who gives a shit?

Deevs said...

Bruce Hayden-

Good point about never saying never about calling myself doctor. There very well may be a scenario where it's practical to insist on it, but for now I don't see any real appeal in insisting on it.

As for my research, I'm studying interlayer fracture mechanics in 3D printed materials. I'd say it's pretty pure mechanical engineering. My current project involves a bit of machine learning to guide which processing parameters to use to build specimens with higher fracture toughness. The trouble I've been having hasn't actually been with the machine learning, but a persistent failure in test specimen setup.

Long story short, I have to bond fiberglass doublers to my specimens to prevent them failing in an undesirable way and drive a crack at the specimen midplane (double cantilever beam specimen, if you're interested). Trouble is, the interlayer toughness is exceeding the bond strength of the adhesive to my ABS plastic substrate. So, I get the reinforcement doublers debonding before I can grow a crack, and, if I can't grow a crack, I can't measure interlayer fracture toughness.

JohnG said...

More apopros of Dr. Biden is perhaps the fine example set by Dr. Irwin Corey, a man of distinguished accomplishment, a man of letters, and a fine mind worthy of example.

Just listen to his penetrating analysis of the question Why?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PegLhy9ooXQ

Inga said...

“This entire controversy arose because Epstein tried to shame Biden into not using it.”

Precisely and all the shamers piled on. There was no controversy before the Epstein article.

narciso said...

or the colonel (who I believe was based on edward doheny,) in the big sleep, sternwood was it?

Iman said...

How do you casually refer to Queen Latifah? Queen? Latifah? Dana?

Her Heinous.

Charlie Currie said...

In pop culture, Dr, is used as a laugh, a joke, a comical title. So, Dr Biden is to be thought of as a joke. I'm with you there.

Jim at said...

When has she done this?

Um, isn't that the whole point of several blogs posts on this very subject? Don't be daft.

Al said...

Anybody who listened to WAWA radio in Milwaukee in the 1960s remembers the great Dr. Bop.
A sample of his show intro here:

https://stepfatherofsoul.blogspot.com/2010/06/soul-on-air-15-dr-bop-1973.html

His real name was Hoyt Locke. His home phone number was in the Milwaukee phone directory under Bop, Doctor.

who-knew said...

Over a hundred comments and I'm the first to mention Dr. Johnny Fever. Shame on you people. "The doctor is in the house!"

J. Farmer said...

or the colonel (who I believe was based on edward doheny,) in the big sleep, sternwood was it?

General Sternwood. I know at the very least Sternwood's home was based on Greystone Mansion in Beverly Hills. Doheny did inspire the character in Upton Sinclair's Oil! and thus Daniel Day-Lewis' character in There Will Be Blood.

Rosalyn C. said...

Just to weigh in, I think calling Jill Biden, "Dr. Jill" is a joke. "Dr. Biden" is even more of joke outside of educational conferences she might attend. I like language to be used accurately. When President Obama was constantly described as a Constitutional Law Professor I found that to be intentionally manipulative, implying he was a legal scholar. He taught part time as an adjunct; and then Chicago Law School redefined what they call a professor, as anyone who teaches a course there.

The idea of calling an entertainer Dr. Who, etc., is that they have achieved renown in their field. Has Jill Biden achieved renown in her field? Has she developed curriculum or new methods of teaching? No, actually she has used her degree to teach English in a Junior College. Fine, there's nothing wrong with that and I admire that she has maintained a professional life of her own. But her use of Dr. has been pretentious and a tool to manipulate people to not be seen as just a Senator's wife imo. There is no reason for us as citizens to call her Dr. Jill or Dr. Biden, if she becomes First Lady, other than to perpetuate the pretense of her superiority.

Apparently there have been 17 physicians serving in the 116th Congress and they have been addressed by their titles as elected officials while acting in their official capacity in Congress. They list their MD's but don't demand special deference by the use of the title Doctor. Americans tend to eschew that sort of thing in our leaders.

J. Farmer said...

@Jim at:

Um, isn't that the whole point of several blogs posts on this very subject? Don't be daft.

In what blog posts did Jill Biden "demand" you call her anything?

J. Farmer said...

Anybody who listened to WAWA radio in Milwaukee in the 1960s remembers the great Dr. Bop.

Over a hundred comments and I'm the first to mention Dr. Johnny Fever.

In Tampa, our local creature feature TV host was "Dr. Paul Bearer."

Narr said...

What about "Bwana"?

Narr
Is that still cool?


Joe Smith said...

“This entire controversy arose because Epstein tried to shame Biden into not using it.”

Precisely and all the shamers piled on. There was no controversy before the Epstein article.

***

No, not a 'controversy,' but it was definitely a subject of discussion.

The 'shamers' on one side can be compared to the rah-rah defenders on the other.

It's hilarious that the opinions break pretty much along party lines, with the libs being the party that worships credentials and not accomplishments.

The public education system in this country has been steadily going to hell for decades in this country.

Dr. Jill has a doctorate in education...does this mean that she's the best at doing the worst? Kind of seems that way.

Joe Smith said...

"or the colonel (who I believe was based on edward doheny,) in the big sleep, sternwood was it?"

Chandler was a genius but politically incorrect, so I expect him to be cancelled any time now.

I re-read his books every year or so (there aren't many)...always find something you missed.

cassandra lite said...

I'd go along with this if Whoopi had said Dr. Dre would make a great surgeon general.

Josephbleau said...

I don’t care what an EdD calls herself, I’ll call her what I wish. I do think it is horrible that Joe Biden told the public on video that the only reason Jill wanted an EdD was because she felt bad about getting senator and Mrs mail and wanted to feel more important. What an arrogant prick Joe is. That is spouse abuse. He is smarter than anyone, he can do more pushups, he was at the top of his law school class, his coke head son is smarter than anyone. He is a serial plagiarist. He is a delusional irrational inconsiderate fool who insults others to give himself the appearance of superiority. A true dunce, but an idiot savant at getting rich in office.

J. Farmer said...

@Joe Smith:

It's hilarious that the opinions break pretty much along party lines, with the libs being the party that worships credentials and not accomplishments.

I agree with the first half of this sentence but not the second. See, for example, Trump's references to the Wharton School or the right-wing evangelist "Dr. Paula White," who had no college degree whatsoever.

TheOne Who Is Not Obeyed said...

As always, libs like Inga and morons like Farmer have the history incorrect. Epstein's op-ed did not cause the controversy, it was a response to the ridiculous insistence of Jill Biden being called "Dr" by the media on the campaign trail. While it was a low-level controversy, the howling, maniacal response from Inga's fellow libtards to Epstein's commonsense op-ed is what fanned this to the level of controversy.

And yes, Farmer, Jill is insisting that EVERYONE call her "Dr". Just because the illegitimate future First "Lady" is not issuing personal letters to every blog commenter does not mean she is not insisting on some bizarre ritual where we plebes acknowledge her educational "attainment" in having her husband's clout buy her some self-respect in the form of an Ed degree. Should I have the great misfortune to meet that harpy face to face, I can quite assure you her office protocol team will inform me that the proper way to address her Highness is as "Dr".

daskol said...

Dr. Biden's pretension is not even among her very worst qualities. Whatever combination of greed, vanity and ruthlessness is behind her involvement in this sham of a Biden campaign, soon to be sham of a presidency, wherein she props up her demented husband and pretends he's not a diminished man incapable of the office he's run for, well, that's why I don't like her. Or anyone in her entourage or who worked on that humbug project. She ought to be known for that, and perhaps the Dr. Jill Biden sobriquet will help us remember what a low, low person she is.

Inga said...

“WARSAW, Poland -- Evangelist Billy Graham received an honorary doctor's degree in predominantly Catholic Poland today in a ceremony at Warsaw's Baptist church. ... He said the granting of the honorary doctor of theology degree 'will be a symbol of common fellowship and contribution to peace in our world. '”

I’ve often heard Billy Graham being referred to Dr. Billy Graham.

walter said...

Dr. Joementia!

Dr. Fink was ahead of his time.

Joe Smith said...

"See, for example, Trump's references to the Wharton School..."

Not sure what you're saying here, Trump does indeed have a degree in economics from Wharton.

Don't know the other person you're referencing but I looked her up. She seems like a garden variety preacher a la Osteen.

No more a Dr. than Jill.

walter said...

Given Joe's lies about his edumacation, the Dr. shtick was probably his idea.

J. Farmer said...

@TheOne Who Is Not Obeyed:

was a response to the ridiculous insistence of Jill Biden being called "Dr" by the media on the campaign trail...And yes, Farmer, Jill is insisting that EVERYONE call her "Dr".

Can you give me some examples of when Jill Biden insisted that "EVERYONE call her" doctor or when this insistence was causing controversy? Epstein doesn't even make that claim in his op-ed. When was this controversy occurring?

J. Farmer said...

@Joe Smith:

Not sure what you're saying here, Trump does indeed have a degree in economics from Wharton.

Just explaining why I disagreed with your notion about "the libs being the party that worships credentials." Trump frequently namedrops Wharton as an example of his smarts, talent, ability, etc.

Don't know the other person you're referencing but I looked her up. She seems like a garden variety preacher a la Osteen.

White is a personal minister to Trump and was involved with him during his administration as an advisor. She's even less of a "Dr." than Jill, having never obtained any kind of degrees but still referred to herself and had herself introduced as "Dr. Paula White."

FullMoon said...

The humor of the situation arose because most people rightly assumed she was an MD.

Simply because it was never really discussed until fairly recently.

Had a high school English teacher who was discovered by kiss ass student to be PHD. She embarrassed teach by referring to him as Dr.

Only once.

He did a year at my school because it had a bad reputation and he was writing a book, or something.. He was disappointed, as the really bad guys had all dropped out or graduated years before.

Joe Smith said...

Just explaining why I disagreed with your notion about "the libs being the party that worships credentials." Trump frequently namedrops Wharton as an example of his smarts, talent, ability, etc.

***

But he backed up a degree with making a billion dollars. Even if he doesn't have that much in the bank, he will always live like he does, so there is no distinction.

I think Joe Biden is the dumbest man to ever become president,** but it is an accomplishment so what do I know?

It's really just an indictment of the state of politics in the US, just as Trump being president was a reaction against the terrible state of the political class.

If we can't get anyone better than Biden then we are well and truly fucked.

**By the way, no Biden fan on this forum has yet disputed my claim...still waiting.

BoatSchool said...

Some commenters are stating - w/o evidence - that Jill Biden herself has not requested that she be called by her desired sobriquet.

I can assure you that as far back as 2009 the military nonprofit I worked at was told - in no uncertain terms - that Jill Biden was to ALWAYS be referred to as Dr. Biden. This was at her specific request.

Skippy Tisdale said...

This entire controversy arose because Epstein tried to shame Biden into not using it.

And rightfully so. And since when did socialist become opposed to shaming?

Josephbleau said...

"Just explaining why I disagreed with your notion about "the libs being the party that worships credentials." Trump frequently namedrops Wharton as an example of his smarts, talent, ability, etc"

I don't know what your idea of frequently is, but in my estimation Wharton and Trump have come up perhaps 5 times in 4 years, mostly because some group in Wharton was trying to get his degree vacated or there were specious accusations of people taking tests for him that were chronologically improbable. Do you have an article from the past 3 months where Trump bragged about Wharton? I am willing to be proven wrong.

J. Farmer said...

@Joe Smith:

But he backed up a degree with making a billion dollars. Even if he doesn't have that much in the bank, he will always live like he does, so there is no distinction.

Nonetheless, your claim was about credentialism. It's Trump who believes that having attended Wharton signals his intelligence and ability. My only point is that credentialism is not the purview of a particular political party. It's largely driven by systemic changes to the economy over the last several decades and an overall shift to more meritocratic methods.

I think Joe Biden is the dumbest man to ever become president,** but it is an accomplishment so what do I know?

The two are not mutually exclusive. You don't have to be smart to be successful, and being smart does not mean you will be successful. Personality traits, social connections, and plain old luck all play a part in determining outcomes.

It's really just an indictment of the state of politics in the US, just as Trump being president was a reaction against the terrible state of the political class.

If we can't get anyone better than Biden then we are well and truly fucked.


I agree with you here, but I think it is more than merely the "state of the political class." It's also the state of the people, of the nation. How does the cultural divide between whites get resolved? Who can bridge that gap? And how?

Josephbleau said...

Joe passed the Delaware bar exam, so he can give you legal advice.

https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013/02/28/biden-advises-shooting-shotgun-through-door

J. Farmer said...

@Josephbleau:

I don't know what your idea of frequently is, but in my estimation Wharton and Trump have come up perhaps 5 times in 4 years...Do you have an article from the past 3 months where Trump bragged about Wharton? I am willing to be proven wrong.

No, I do not. But I will happily rescind the phrase "namedrops Wharton" and replace it with "namedropped Wharton."

Josephbleau said...

"No, I do not. But I will happily rescind the phrase "namedrops Wharton" and replace it with "namedropped Wharton."

OK, so Trump is like every other politician regarding their school.

J. Farmer said...

OK, so Trump is like every other politician regarding their school.

Well, his namedropping of Wharton predates his political career, but certainly I am not claiming this is anything particular or unique to Trump. Just the opposite. I was disagreeing with Joe Smith that worshiping credentials was not unique to a political party.

Joe Smith said...

"It's Trump who believes that having attended Wharton signals his intelligence and ability."

I know what you mean, but I am saying that Trump HAS DEMONSTRATED HIS INTELLIGENCE AND ABILITY as well as having the credentials.

This shouldn't be difficult.

I could be here all day writing about Trump's flaws, trust me. But I will defend him as a risk-taker and a man who (personally) has created hundreds if not thousands of jobs. He signs the front of checks. That gets my respect.

Btw, I think Trump mostly mentions Wharton Business School in relation to his kids. I know that Ivanka has a degree from there...maybe the boys too...don't know.

Josephbleau said...

I agree that being a General or Senator or Professor or Reverend or Motion Picture Star or Olympic Medalist is over valued by both parties. But those titles do require hard work. (perhaps not the Reverend part.)

Joe Smith said...

"I agree that being a General or Senator or Professor or Reverend or Motion Picture Star or Olympic Medalist is over valued by both parties. But those titles do require hard work. (perhaps not the Reverend part.)"

I think 'reverend' requires about $20 and a stamp.

Josephbleau said...

I will disagree with myself here, and clearly state that my own senator Durbin the Dick has not done a day's work over his whole lifetime, if you don't count calling US soldiers Nazi Troopers work.

J. Farmer said...

@Joe Smith:

This shouldn't be difficult.

It isn't; it just has nothing to do with what I was talking about. I only took issue with half of a sentence you wrote: "with the libs being the party that worships credentials and not accomplishments." That Trump was successful in business is beside the point. He's the one who believes namedropping Wharton is a signal of intelligence.

I could be here all day writing about Trump's flaws, trust me. But I will defend him as a risk-taker and a man who (personally) has created hundreds if not thousands of jobs. He signs the front of checks. That gets my respect.

My point was not to critique Trump but to point out that credentialism is not the purview of a particular political party but is diffuse in our society. It's a function of the number of jobs in our society that require some kind of credential beyond a high school diploma.

tim maguire said...

J. Farmer ...Who is trying to shame you into calling her "doctor"?

You mean other than the entire liberal commentariat, who have declared it sexist to not refer to Jill Biden as doctor? Other than the mass of Western media, and a few million left-wing twitter and facebook users, possibly no one.

Inga said...

“You mean other than the entire liberal commentariat, who have declared it sexist to not refer to Jill Biden as doctor?”

Who would that be? Not me. I don’t recall any liberal commenter here saying it was sexist to not refer to Jill Biden as Dr Biden.

Joe Smith said...

"Who would that be? Not me. I don’t recall any liberal commenter here saying it was sexist to not refer to Jill Biden as Dr Biden."

Complete disconnect.

Commenter: Charles Manson has brown hair and is a murderer.

Inga: I have brown hair. I'm not a murderer.

Inga said...

“I have brown hair. I'm not a murderer.”

Good to know.

So if you were not referring to the entire liberal commentariat HERE at Althouse, then you are merely exaggerating.

Butkus51 said...

Yes, but they KNOW they're not a doctor. For Jill its her accomplishment. Besides being a Stepford wife of course. And a hoochie mama. But other than that.......knock yourself out Dr Jill Biden.

lol

J. Farmer said...

@tim maguire:

You mean other than the entire liberal commentariat, who have declared it sexist to not refer to Jill Biden as doctor? Other than the mass of Western media, and a few million left-wing twitter and facebook users, possibly no one.

Oh, they were trying to shame you? I had no idea. I thought they were responding to an op-ed in the Wall Street Journal that was trying to shame Biden into not using it.

Personally, I think using credentials outside of professional settings that call for them is stupid, and I think people who do it are often pretentious. But if people want to be pretentious, what the fuck do I care? This is a controversy in search of a problem.

Inga said...

“Oh, they were trying to shame you? I had no idea. I thought they were responding to an op-ed in the Wall Street Journal that was trying to shame Biden into not using it.”

Apparently he takes the entire “liberal commentariat” of the US very personally.

J. Farmer said...

Yes, but they KNOW they're not a doctor. For Jill its her accomplishment. Besides being a Stepford wife of course. And a hoochie mama. But other than that.......knock yourself out Dr Jill Biden.

Oh boy. We just finished four years of the left heaping abuse and scorn on Melania and now we're going to have to listen to it from the right against Jill Biden. The emotionality of primitive tribal forces is something we should try to resist, not indulge.

Iman said...

I don’t need no doctor!

Josephbleau said...

"Oh boy. We just finished four years of the left heaping abuse and scorn on Melania and now we're going to have to listen to it from the right against Jill Biden. The emotionality of primitive tribal forces is something we should try to resist, not indulge. "

That is, I'll assault you and then demand civility before you can attack me back. Classic bullyism.

Clyde said...

Shrill Jill. And not "Dr." Shrill Jill, either.

Clyde said...

Ann Althouse said...
...I swear I wrote "sniff at that" before remembering Joe Biden's penchant for smelling females!


The ignorant half of the electorate has no clue what you are talking about.

Lem said...

Good call Althouse.

J. Farmer said...

@Josephbleau:

That is, I'll assault you and then demand civility before you can attack me back. Classic bullyism.

That you consider an attack on Melania Trump an attack on yourself is what makes it tribalism.

404 Page Not Found said...

Oh, I get it. We're not supposed to take the "Dr" part seriously. Is that what you're saying, Ann?

We're just supposed to let all the low info voters, like Whoopie Goldberg, just believe it.

Marcus Bressler said...

The Hostess writes: It's MORE egalitarian to go with her nickname...

Me: Its' NOT a nickname, it's a title that the MSM (and now you) insist we use. Unless you mean the nickname is "Dr. Jill" which STILL is not a nickname, just an informal use of her title paired with her Christian name.

Am I allowed to write "Christian name"?

THEOLDMAN

My nickname in high school and in some places now, is Trotsky. Girls called me "Trot"

Josephbleau said...

"That you consider an attack on Melania Trump an attack on yourself is what makes it tribalism. "

Pronouns like you and me are often used as an expression of generality, I never believed I was personally attacked, and consider the idea a bit strange.

Narr said...

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ken in tx said...

When I had a Work/study job in the Records Office at the University of Alabama, the law school degree was Bachelor of Laws, LLB. I understand they changed it later.

J. Farmer said...

@Josepbeau:

Pronouns like you and me are often used as an expression of generality, I never believed I was personally attacked, and consider the idea a bit strange.

I completely agree with you on this point. I was confused by your interpretation of my remark as "classic bullyism" or having to do with civility.

Marcus Bressler said...

I have used "Esquire" after my attorney's name on a letter:

When I was in the USPS in middle management, I got a called-on-the-carpet letter ordering me to explain the 52 hours of Penalty Overtime (that's double straight time)I used on the day after a holiday --from my Postmaster. As the use of the POT was entirely due to the Manager, Delivery & Collections pulling staff from me to give to a front line supervisor he was fucking, I wrote a scathing letter back that got me in hot water. I was ordered to meet with the District higher-ups and my PM to explain myself. I didn't back down but agreed that I went a little overboard in my "scathing". Near the end of the meeting, the Regional Manager asked me why I copied my attorney on the letter. I explained that since I was the victim of disparate treatment due to my sex, I wanted my response on the record if I needed to take legal action later.
The only reason she knew "John Tynan" was my attorney was the "Esquire" I put after his name. I did that for the specific result I got: they treaded carefully and took no discipline on me for the letter because I got my lawyer involved. Without the "Esquire", they would have not had an idea who Tynan was.
BTW, I think "Esquire" is silly and pretentious in this day and age. But it certainly served me well that day.

Josephbleau said...

"I completely agree with you on this point. I was confused by your interpretation of my remark as "classic bullyism" or having to do with civility."

I was referring to classic bullyism as where someone attacks someone then says wait! lets be friends, before the other can respond, not anything you said. If Melania and Barron are meat for the public grinder, no one can complain if Jill and Hunter are.

Joe Smith said...

"That is, I'll assault you and then demand civility before you can attack me back. Classic bullyism."

Moveon.org

DavidUW said...

I've known, in that I've actually had a conversation of at least 30 minutes or more, on more than one occasion, with at least a half dozen Nobel Laureates in the real sciences - Chemistry, Medicine, Physics.

Not one was ever addressed as "Dr."
I'm not addressed as Dr., again, unless it's a Southerner of a certain age. And no, it's not a Ed.D. "degree."

As a stage name or nickname, we all know the deal and Dr. Demento, as just one example, is far more intelligent, accomplished, and deserving of a title relative to Jill Biden.

Otherwise, Dr.'s in the USA refer to medical doctors, surgeons, even dentists. But not really anyone else. And insisting on it reveals an insecurity in your credential.

Iman said...

That you consider an attack on Melania Trump an attack on yourself is what makes it tribalism.

The last 4 years were so bad, with the slights of the First Lady that I take it personal. I’m in her corner and the media poodles that continue with the abuse of her can eat a shit sandwich - daily - in my estimation. They are garbage.

Bunkypotatohead said...

Doc Pomus wrote a bunch of great songs...Little Sister, This Magic Moment, Viva Las Vegas. Which is more than Dr. Biden has ever done for mankind.

Unknown said...

"Now, Mr. Evil..."

"Dr. Evil! I didn't spend six years in evil medical school to be called Mr. Evil, thank you very much."

robother said...

Doctor! Ain't there nothing I can take
Doctor! To relieve this bellyache
Doctor, you such a silly woman.

Kevin Walsh said...

I had thought the guy with the eye patch sang all those hits.

404 Page Not Found said...

Ann Althouse now says, hey, she's a white woman who needs the ego boost. Let's just pander to her and call her "Dr.", even though, as her husband says, she only got the EdD in order to have her mail addressed to "Dr." Jill Biden.

Hard to imagine a man being more patronizing than that, Ann. But you go, girl.

DeepRunner said...

Ann Althouse said:
"If you've been having trouble with the "Dr. Jill" nomenclature, just see it as a stage name... a sobriquet... a nom de guerre..."

Eh, I don't know professor. All those "doctors" you listed possibly didn't make a point of being called Dr., except for maybe Dre sometime, don't know. And I believe Dr. Jill Biden would see it as part of an act, although everyone else does. So there's that.

What of Dr. Seuss, who taught us more than Dr. Jill Biden?

I would not, did not vote for Biden.
He won't say what Hunter's hidin'.
Joe couldn't win in Carolina.
He's a pawn for Beijing, China.
He wouldn't answer a single ask,
He always hides behind his mask.
It's still unmitigated schlock
That we must call his wife a doc.
This is the story we all know
of Dr. Jill and Old Catholic Joe.

Thanks very much. Remember to grab your t-shirt and DVD on the way out.

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Tina Trent said...

To claim the title “doctor” for some pathetic Ed.D. is the precise opposite of working-class behavior.

Her “thesis” makes Michelle Obama’s Princeton essay seem sophisticated. And Michelle was a very young woman when she wrote that.

Everything about the Bidens reeks of graft and fraud. Her husband was in the position to provide substantial kickbacks to the institution where she somehow managed to teach English Composition after turning in an Ed.D. riddled with grammatical errors, consisting mostly of transcriptions of conversations with fewer than ten people and long passages lifted from administrative catalogues. What sort of people have a family tradition of plagiarism and misrepresenting academic credentials?

Charles said...

The idea is that she is demanding to be referred to her "title" I hate titles. I think they are anti-American as, to me, a visceral level. We see it all the time like former presidents being called President, the yare not and I will never refer to them as that "title", unless I am referring to the period of their presidency.
She can use Dr all she wants but unless it is in a setting being appropriate ill never use it.

From my time in the Army the term "Doc" had to be earned and just because you were our Medic or Physician, when you got the nickname it meant you were now trusted.

Nicknames are earned.

daskol said...

Lol Farmer, Trump mentioning he went to Wharton is like when Al Czervik says he belongs to a country club. I don't think you're on Trump's wavelength.

Lurker21 said...

Yeah, she's privileged now, but she's engaging in some behavior that's more of a working class thing. It's looked *down* on by the elite.

True enough. I always used to make sure to call all my professors "Doctor." It took me some time to realize that they didn't use the title among themselves, and when they wanted to get hold of a colleague they used the other professor's bare and unadorned last name to leave a message with the secretary.

But in this case, I think it's more of an educationalist thing. Every school superintendent takes pride in their Doctor title. It's a way of getting (undeserved? unearned?) respect from the public. Maybe the difference is that in high school so few teachers have doctorates, while in universities dang near everyone does and it's no great distinction.

I don't know about the thesis thing. I couldn't write one and had no idea what was expected or where to start. Sociologists are famed for their bad writing, and educationalists fall in the same category, so I'm not really sure if a "good" sociology or education thesis would be that much better than Michelle's or Jill's.

Lurker21 said...


I remember being a kid and getting a card from an aunt addressed to "Master" me.

That is one title I wouldn't mind keeping.

Big Mike said...

I remember being a kid and getting a card from an aunt addressed to "Master" me.

That is one title I wouldn't mind keeping.


@Lurker21, you would mind it if your last name was Bates.

James Graham said...

The most famous doctor of all ...

Doctor Fell.

I do not like thee, Doctor Fell.

The reason why, I cannot tell.

But this I know, and know full well,

I do not like thee, Doctor Fell.

Lurker21 said...

Epstein was just saying what many people were thinking. If you thought Jill Biden was a medical doctor and found out she wasn't, or if you heard that she insisted on being called Doctor, you might well have wondered "What's up with that?" Epstein just articulated that (awkwardly to be sure).