Althouse: Gentle morning.

December 19, 2020

Gentle morning.

116 comments:

Tomcc said...: How very serene. Is it as quiet as it looks?; 12/19/20, 11:46 AM
Narr said...: Quiet?

Narr
Don't worry, the loons will be along soon.; 12/19/20, 11:48 AM
Readering said...: Speaking of loons.... DJT twitter feed.

But he's funny at rallies!; 12/19/20, 11:49 AM
Michael K said...: I looked and thought it was too early for TDS but Readering certainly showed me.

Book time.; 12/19/20, 11:56 AM
Titus said...: Wisconsin is in the New York Times today and for all the wrong reasons, natch. Cannibal sandwiches. So flyover and deplorable.

Tits; 12/19/20, 12:04 PM
Readering said...: Bye!; 12/19/20, 12:07 PM
dreams said...: Wisconsin is beating the hell out of Louisville in their basketball game.; 12/19/20, 12:09 PM
Narr said...: So the other night in one of the music discussions, Yancey Ward (IIRC) said that the two great/influential composers were Bach and Hadyn, and gave Beethoven the nod as profoundest in emotional expression.

No argument, there. But the Bach and Hadyn pairing intrigues me. Hadyn (like Handel) was celebrated throughout Europe--especially in the music capitals-- Vienna, Paris, London-- and became a public figure in his lifetime. Unless I'm much mistaken, old Bach (and he was old enough to be Papa Hadyn's opa) was known mostly as an old-fashioned church composer and organist in the comparative backwater of Leipzig, and by 1800 had been forgotten by almost everyone (except Hadyn, Mozart, and Beethoven, who themselves knew only the tip of the Bachberg).

His works and reputation were rediscovered and revived by Forkel and especially Mendelssohn; Hadyn of course has waxed and waned but has never been as obscured by circumstance as Bach was. Even the Brandenburg Concertos were not known until about 1850.

Anyway, interesting discussion.

Narr
Rainy and cold here; %#)@#! chimney leaking again; 12/19/20, 12:21 PM
BUMBLE BEE said...: A Little Advice... https://youtu.be/pda6HWwl-V0 Funny stuff here!; 12/19/20, 12:33 PM
Browndog said...: Watching the Big-10 "Championship. NW giving the Buckeyes all they can handle.

If #Northwestern beats #OhioState I wonder if the @bigten
will just declare the Buckeyes won. sums up the 2020 college football season.

1:30 in the afternoon, it already feels like it's starting to get dark. As someone that would rather be outdoors than indoors, this time of year grinds on me.; 12/19/20, 12:36 PM
mockturtle said...: Dreams reports: Wisconsin is beating the hell out of Louisville in their basketball game.

And Northwestern is leading--so far--against Ohio State [football].; 12/19/20, 12:36 PM
mockturtle said...: 1:30 in the afternoon, it already feels like it's starting to get dark. As someone that would rather be outdoors than indoors, this time of year grinds on me.

But after the 21st the days will start getting longer! :-); 12/19/20, 12:38 PM
Original Mike said...: "As someone that would rather be outdoors than indoors, this time of year grinds on me."

Nobody's keeping you indoors after dark.; 12/19/20, 12:50 PM
Kai Akker said...: Saw this via an Instapundit link the other day. Remarkable news.

https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/12/419201/drug-reverses-age-related-mental-decline-within-days; 12/19/20, 12:51 PM
Achilles said...: This is the calm before the storm.

Trump is not surrendering to the theft of this election. His supporters are not either.

The Michigan SoS is trying to keep the results of the forensic audit from being released. That will fail. Maricopa County board of elections is disobeying a court subpoena to have their election machines go through a forensic audit.

We all know why. There were foreign powers involved in manipulating our elections.

I don't think Trump intends to leave the White House willingly.

He is going to force all of these people to deal with the overwhelming evidence this election was a farce.

We are going to act like the democrats have been for the last 4 years. People like Ann think violence should be rewarded.

You will get it.; 12/19/20, 12:52 PM
Yancey Ward said...: Who wants to bet that the Democrats in California will suddenly start supporting strict signature verification for some unknown reason.; 12/19/20, 12:52 PM
Yancey Ward said...: "drug-reverses-age-related-mental-decline-within-days"

Joe Biden took it and was able to remember where his ass was.; 12/19/20, 12:55 PM
Yancey Ward said...: But he was still pissing into the garbage can, unfortunately.; 12/19/20, 12:59 PM
Humperdink said...: "Nobody's keeping you indoors after dark."

Don't say that too quickly. Cuomo is still governor of New York.; 12/19/20, 1:11 PM
FullMoon said...: This is the calm before the storm.

Trump is not surrendering to the theft of this election. His supporters are not either.

Oh, boy!
Donald J. Trump
@realDonaldTrump
Peter Navarro releases 36-page report alleging election fraud 'more than sufficient' to swing victory to Trump https://washex.am/3nwaBCe. A great report by Peter. Statistically impossible to have lost the 2020 Election. Big protest in D.C. on January 6th. Be there, will be wild!

Advantage D.C. criminals and antifa have is familiarity with the battlefield terrain and support of local politicians.; 12/19/20, 1:30 PM
steve uhr said...: "Statistically impossible to have lost the 2020 Election."

Correction. Not impossible - Just 1 quadrillion to one.; 12/19/20, 2:21 PM
Browndog said...: Nobody's keeping you indoors after dark

Not sure if I'm being chastised or encouraged.; 12/19/20, 2:27 PM
Original Mike said...: "Not sure if I'm being chastised or encouraged."

Encouraged. Absolutely.; 12/19/20, 2:33 PM
mandrewa said...: 800 small businesses are closing every day

We could still end this epidemic with cheap, at-home, rapid result antigen testing for Covid-19 infectiousness. But the key is it has to be at-home. If the government cannot bring itself to trust people to do it themselves then the situation is hopeless.

To actually work this cheap, at-home, rapid result antigen testing has to be something that people can do every day if they want to. When that becomes feasible all sorts of things become possible and this virus could be wiped out with just testing alone.

See Ct Values: How They Should be Assessed for SARS CoV 2 (COVID 19 PCR Testing vs. Rapid Antigen Tests); 12/19/20, 2:46 PM
mandrewa said...: The average normal yearly flu season is five times more deadly than the Covid-19 coronavirus when compared on a years-of-life-lost basis.

See Essential facts about Covid-19

And that comparison takes the attributions of death to Covid-19 at face value, or in other words this a radical overstatement of the number of years of life actually being lost because of the virus itself.; 12/19/20, 2:56 PM
Jersey Fled said...: Dr. Jill Biden:

“Three quarters of the class will be Caucasian; one quarter of the class will be African American; and the remaining seats will be filled with students of Asian descent or non-resident aliens.”

It just occurred to me what Jill was proposing here.

Since the class would be filled with Caucasians and African Americans, (three fourths plus one fourth) there would be no seats filled by students of Asian descent or non-resident aliens.

Clever.; 12/19/20, 3:22 PM
Browndog said...: Health experts: The reason there is very little flu this year is because everyone is wearing a mask.

Health experts: The reason covid is exploding is because nobody is wearing a mask.

60% of the U.S. population still believe every utterance from these frauds, no questions asked.; 12/19/20, 3:30 PM
effinayright said...: Browndog said...
Nobody's keeping you indoors after dark
*****************

Idiot Charlie Baker in Mass. certainly is. He has decreed a 10PM to 5:30AM curfew.

The virus lurks in dark corners, donchaknow....; 12/19/20, 3:33 PM
effinayright said...: Yancey Ward said...
"drug-reverses-age-related-mental-decline-within-days"

Joe Biden took it and was able to remember where his ass was.
**************
But first, he had to grab it with both hands.; 12/19/20, 3:34 PM
rhhardin said...: Polish joke from Tom Clancy: A Polish woman doesn't use a vibrator. She says it chips her teeth.; 12/19/20, 3:40 PM
Original Mike said...: "Joe Biden took it and was able to remember where his ass was."

It's next to the flashlight.; 12/19/20, 3:44 PM
George Putnam said...: I really enjoyed the post on 12/17 about movies, especially the discussion in the comments. I shared that with family. That's what makes this a great blog!

My movie recommendation especially for 2020 is "Hamilton: An American Musical" on Disney Plus. I explain why here:

https://switchelphilosopher.blog/2020/07/16/hamilton-an-american-musical/; 12/19/20, 3:47 PM
stevew said...: This morning was gentle here, there was no wind, not even a breeze. It was 9 degrees F, nothing much by Wisconsin and upper midwest standards, but pretty damn cold. Sun was out all day, temps hit 30 degrees F,

I ventured away from my home state today to visit with family. Having returned I shall not quarantine as is "recommended". Doing so, along with mask wearing, accomplishes nothing. California is, and has been, in a strict lockdown, stay at home, regime and, yet, they are reporting >40000 new cases per day.

Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is insanity.

I'm worried about my MIL, she will be by herself at Christmas this year, the first time ever, I believe. I blame my SIL and her husband who are Covid Panic Peddlers, they scared her into cancelling her plan to come north. We're going to facetime with MIL and have mandated that our children speak with her on Christmas day. I hope it helps.; 12/19/20, 3:57 PM
mockturtle said...: Browndog: If there's anything we've learned in the past year, it's that 'experts' are no longer to be trusted.; 12/19/20, 4:11 PM
BUMBLE BEE said...: Hey Joe... https://twitter.com/i/status/1338923147215638528; 12/19/20, 4:15 PM
h said...: I have always had a "hands off" attitude on Presidential families. (Unless or until they volunteer to make themselves political.) Joe Biden's wife has suffered and will continue to suffer a blow to her intellectual reputation because of the scrutiny over her doctorate. There is a general denigration (can we still use that word?) of Ed.D. degrees because they require considerably less effort, intelligence, and originality to acquire, compared to an MD or a PhD. There is a more specific denigration of her degree because of the weaknesses of her academic paper and because of a suspicion that the University of Delaware would not have treated the wife of a US Senator from Delaware with the same rigor as other students in evaluating her worthiness for a degree.

But a substantial portion of the population will now think (silently for the most part) "bimbo" whenever they hear "doctor" Jill Biden.

More than the person herself, it is her "supporters" who have brought about this scrutiny and loss of reputation. It is a kind of variant of the Streisand effect.; 12/19/20, 4:17 PM
rhhardin said...: There's a ritual phrase in railroad radio communications, where repair crews are authorized by the dispatcher to occupy a certin section of track for a certain time, and a clearing of that "warrant" when done, ending with the phrase "all men and equipment are clear of the track."

It wouldn't surprise me if they had "Men Working" signs when a crossing road is involved.; 12/19/20, 4:18 PM
WWIII Joe Biden, Husk-Puppet + America's Putin said...: ooo here we go.

How race politics liberated the elites - by Matthew Crawford. Excellent.; 12/19/20, 4:18 PM
West Texas Intermediate Crude said...: I have long suspected that wearing a mask forces a person to re-inoculate himself with a low dose of virus that otherwise would be completely expelled- the person is recycling and reusing the virus, giving it a second ( and third, and fourth...) chance to latch on to and infect the oral mucosa and cause disease. The interior of the mask is kept dark, warm, and moist, so the virus that would be inactivated by sunlight , drying out, or temperature extremes is actually kept viable in an incubator that the person voluntarily replenishes. The ultimate own goal, and the explanation for why Florida is doing better than CA or NY.
Prove me wrong- or right.; 12/19/20, 4:25 PM
BUMBLE BEE said...: The Virus also knows if you're going to Kroger or to Church. Those Chinese are clever don'tcha know!; 12/19/20, 4:25 PM
I'm Full of Soup said...: Stevew at 3:57. That is a sad situation. Could someone at least drive over and greet her from outside? Even if for a short while.; 12/19/20, 4:29 PM
stephen cooper said...: In 2020, in the USA, about 50 thousand - maybe twice as many as that - old people died, alone, gasping for their last breath without the consolation of a human touch, without the consolation of a fellow human at the side of their deathbed, because their Gen-X kids were afraid of catching the flu, and decided it was ok to let the old people die alone.

If you thought Boomers were bad, think about that. It wasn't the Boomers who followed Governor Cuomo down the road of not caring about dying old people, it was mostly Gen-X people.

Nice picture of a gentle morning, on a beautiful morning in December, by the way.; 12/19/20, 4:31 PM
BUMBLE BEE said...: Christmas holidays are the loneliest time of the year. Suicides usually surge because of this. Spend extra time with the loved ones this year. By phone or whatever, spend the time.; 12/19/20, 4:32 PM
Browndog said...: First, you have Gretchen Granholm trying to indoctrinate children using Santa to tell them to wear their masks and not see family for Christmas.

CNN: Hold my beer:

Dr. Fauci says on CNN’s Sesame Street special that he personally went up to the North Pole and "vaccinated Santa Claus myself” and Santa is "good to go" for Christmas this year.

In November Fraudci said Santa was immune.

Why do libs always have to fuck with the kids?; 12/19/20, 4:33 PM
Browndog said...: West Texas Intermediate Crude said...

You are exactly correct. Further, as many if not more died of bacterial pneumonia due to masks in the "2nd wave" of the Spanish flu in 1918.; 12/19/20, 4:37 PM
Michael K said...: Idiot Charlie Baker in Mass. certainly is. He has decreed a 10PM to 5:30AM curfew.

The lunatic Mayor of Tucson has done the same. The recall petition is progressing nicely.; 12/19/20, 4:39 PM
stevew said...: @I'm Full of Soup: mrs. stevew is in touch with a couple of MIL's friends in the area to see if they can do as you suggest. I have a good, good friend about 45 mins north of her, checking to see if he would be willing to swing down and say hello. I'm optimistic that we will find a way for her to have some visitors.; 12/19/20, 4:41 PM
Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...: Why do libs always have to fuck with the kids?

they're kinda into pedophilia.

...NAMBLA, anyone?; 12/19/20, 4:43 PM
J. Farmer said...: This is the calm before the storm. Trump is not surrendering to the theft of this election. His supporters are not either. People like Ann think violence should be rewarded. You will get it.

Anyone interested in taking bets on this?; 12/19/20, 4:43 PM
stevew said...: Also, I do not usually allow myself to get angry, but I am well past that point with my SIL and her husband. It will take a lot of effort to forgive them. I'm not currently up to that task.; 12/19/20, 4:44 PM
stevew said...: I'm with you J. Farmer: the people that support Trump are incapable of "not surrendering to the theft of this election". I don't mean that as a judgement of them, rather I think it is a testament to their commitment to the fundamental principles of the Constitution and our Republic.; 12/19/20, 4:48 PM
Browndog said...: Anyone interested in taking bets on this?

It's one man's frustration. Understandable.; 12/19/20, 4:58 PM
Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...: must-see trilogy blockbuster of the year
now showing in a theater near you; 12/19/20, 4:59 PM
Anonymous said...: My local newspaper printed a column from our Governor, who attempted to 'splain' why he wasn't issuing a mask mandate. I'm paraphrasing, but the gist was this:

These people won't listen. They won't mask! They strap ARs to their chest and tell us to back off. Who can rule, err, I mean, who can govern these people? We've told them for 10 months that the hospitals were over-whelmed! OK, the hospitals were never overwhelmed, but they COULD be! We were just saying they were overwhelmed for their own good!

They won't listen!; 12/19/20, 5:05 PM
tcrosse said...: Much more severe lockdowns in London. Trains jammed with Londoners trying to GTFO. I Blame Trump.; 12/19/20, 5:06 PM
Jersey Fled said...: "Also, I do not usually allow myself to get angry, but I am well past that point with my SIL and her husband. It will take a lot of effort to forgive them. I'm not currently up to that task."

I know how you feel. We have relatives through my daughter's marriage who have ruined our granddaughter's first birthday, Thanksgiving and now Christmas with their irrational and obsessive Covid fear.

And my daughter and her husband are caught in the crossfire.; 12/19/20, 5:09 PM
Anonymous said...: England gave their Capitol City to Islam. Sadiq Khan.

Think for one moment what has happened in the Birthplace of the Magna Carta.

Diversity. What fools these people be that try to build a tower to heaven.; 12/19/20, 5:16 PM
Mike of Snoqualmie said...: Isn't funny how the states with the most severe lockdowns are having the most severe China Flu cases, hospitalizations and deaths? The stats say that 73% of the infections occur in the home or social gatherings. So what do the nimrod governors do? Order everyone to stay in these death pits instead of going out to the low-risk restaurants, shops and outdoors.

Here in Washington State, where we our idiot governor isn't as noxious as California's or Michigan's idiotic governors, the infections and deaths have peaked and are going down.; 12/19/20, 5:30 PM
Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...: to those above justly complaining--

...When do we reach this point?

because this:
a brief rundown of how the gov't has been able to fuck with us the last 8 months

Today's Fight For Trump rally in Taiwan; 12/19/20, 5:31 PM
Narr said...: NAMBLA? What's the North American Marlon Brando Lookalike Association go to do with it?

Narr
. . . ohh, the other NAMBLA; 12/19/20, 5:31 PM
Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...: or this one; 12/19/20, 5:35 PM
Original Mike said...: "Today's Fight For Trump rally in Taiwan."

Understandable. Taiwan's days are numbered under Harris/Biden.; 12/19/20, 5:42 PM
Josephbleau said...: As a child reading Mark Twain I quickly understood how American democracy works. Our rulers, a mixture of old money and industrial giants, hire Congress to do what they want under color of representing the people. Citizens can’t determine the true effect of laws passed and all Congress need do is mouth the right platitudes. If policies turn to failure by enriching the elites in a few years no one in congress suffers for it. Elites care little who is in power, as long as they take the money. Shifts between parties helps to make citizens think that change can occur. It is Polosi and AOC’s job to make their side of the house feel they are getting something.

Trump, I think, was a bridge too far as Hillary was allowed to create a crisis that let daylight into the whole process and showed the people that the power brokers are unafraid to exercise force. This was a disaster. The goal of elites is to limit entry into their class to as few as possible so their status won’t be diluted. The elites call Harvard graduates “the help.” It is no surprise that Joe was picked to put everyone to sleep. Harris and the progressives will have to be controlled to keep them from making the people angry.; 12/19/20, 5:43 PM
Josephbleau said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 12/19/20, 5:43 PM
I'm Not Sure said...: Re: Covid- Be brave.

https://youtu.be/b-LHdEUrGa8; 12/19/20, 5:51 PM
J. Farmer said...: @stevew:

I don't mean that as a judgement of them, rather I think it is a testament to their commitment to the fundamental principles of the Constitution and our Republic.

I am not sure what "fundamental principles" you're referring to, but mass democracy was most certainly not one of them ;); 12/19/20, 5:55 PM
stevew said...: Haha, good question. Rereading I think that is my awkwardly put idea that these folks are committed to the rule of law, or the idea that our system will adjudicate these complaints and settle these political issues. They just aren't the type to take arms up against their (perceived) oppressors.; 12/19/20, 6:10 PM
J. Farmer said...: Understandable. Taiwan's days are numbered under Harris/Biden.

What would China gain at this time by an invasion and forcible integration of Taiwan? why is insuring Taiwanese independence an American responsibility? Only about a dozen countries officially recognize Taiwan, and most of those are tiny island nations in the Caribbean and Micronesia.; 12/19/20, 6:12 PM
Michael K said...: Blogger Mike of Snoqualmie said...
Isn't funny how the states with the most severe lockdowns are having the most severe China Flu cases, hospitalizations and deaths?

I know and it would be funny if we were not heading over to the craziest next Wednesday. My wife is still worried about Newson roadblocks.; 12/19/20, 6:15 PM
Original Mike said...: "What would China gain at this time by an invasion and forcible integration of Taiwan? "

It's been their goal for decades. Why? Ask them, but I'd say prestige.

"why is insuring Taiwanese independence an American responsibility?"

Didn't say it was, But under Trump we didn't have to lift a finger to ensure it.

"Only about a dozen countries officially recognize Taiwan, and most of those are tiny island nations in the Caribbean and Micronesia. "

Bullies have that effect.; 12/19/20, 6:20 PM
WWIII Joe Biden, Husk-Puppet + America's Putin said...: Taiwanese know that Chi Com Joe will screw them over.; 12/19/20, 6:27 PM
mockturtle said...: What would China gain at this time by an invasion and forcible integration of Taiwan?

I don't know, Farmer, but why don't you ask them? If you ever read the Taiwan news you will know that China appears to be preparing to invade Taiwan and has been since late last year.; 12/19/20, 6:27 PM
n.n said...: It just occurred to me what Jill was proposing here.

Since the class would be filled with Caucasians and African Americans, (three fourths plus one fourth) there would be no seats filled by students of Asian descent or non-resident aliens.

Caucasian = 1 (multiplier)
African-American = 1/2

Diversity is a bigot's enterprise.; 12/19/20, 6:28 PM
n.n said...: Taiwanese know that Chi Com Joe will screw them over.

Democracy of Green-backs and other special and peculiar favors.; 12/19/20, 6:30 PM
steve uhr said...: I’m sure China , like Russia, want Trump as president. When chaos rules here, when our relations with our allies fray, China stands to gain at home and abroad. Trump has no ideological dispute with China. He’s ok with their human rights abuses. He envies their state-controlled media. He’s ok with their repression.

And if he were re-elected he would reach a trade deal with China and Xi will be a great guy again

What’s not to like?; 12/19/20, 6:55 PM
Qwinn said...: I am frequently surprised at how few people realize that the government of Taiwan is the true legitimate government of China. When the CCP violently overthrew the Chinese government, that government fled to Taiwan in exile. Had it not been for the communist takeover, imagine the incredible future China could have had, as a free market and liberty loving people.

That government in exile, just by its existence, is a challenge to the Chinese government's legitimacy. It is why China has always wanted to finish the job and wipe them out. About the only event I can think of that would be more positive for the human race as a whole, aside from this current coup in the US being dealt with appropriately, would be for Chjna's current government to be overthrown and the government of Taiwan restored to its proper place as the government of all of China. One can dream.; 12/19/20, 7:01 PM
mockturtle said...: Had it not been for the communist takeover, imagine the incredible future China could have had, as a free market and liberty loving people.

They'd have even been better off under Japanese rule.; 12/19/20, 7:08 PM
J. Farmer said...: @Original Mike:

It's been their goal for decades. Why? Ask them, but I'd say prestige.

Undoubtedly, reunification has been their goal for decades. But the question was not about goals but means ("invasion and forcible integration").

Didn't say it was, But under Trump we didn't have to lift a finger to ensure it.

What fingers were we lifting before Trump to insure it?

Bullies have that effect.

Political reality does, too.; 12/19/20, 7:34 PM
J. Farmer said...: BidenFamilyTaxPayerFundedCrackPipe:

Taiwanese know that Chi Com Joe will srew them over.

Screw them over in what manner, exactly?; 12/19/20, 7:35 PM
J. Farmer said...: @mockturtle:

If you ever read the Taiwan news you will know that China appears to be preparing to invade Taiwan and has been since late last year.

Which "Taiwan news" are you referring to? Pan-Blue affiliated? Pan-Green? Any difference in coverage between those news organizations that support DPP versus KMT?; 12/19/20, 7:35 PM
Original Mike said...: "Political reality does, too."

You say tomato, …; 12/19/20, 7:41 PM
J. Farmer said...: @Qwinn:

I am frequently surprised at how few people realize that the government of Taiwan is the true legitimate government of China.

What determines who or what the "legitimate government" of a country is? At what point did the KMT become the "legitimate government of China"?; 12/19/20, 7:43 PM
Browndog said...: steve uhr said...

I’m sure China , like Russia, want Trump as president.

You may be sure, but that would make you an idiot.

More likely, you don't believe a word of it, but get off typing thought pollution from your keypad.

Fucktard.; 12/19/20, 7:44 PM
J. Farmer said...: @Original Mike:

You say tomato.

Was the US bullied by China into transferring diplomatic recognition from Taipei to Beijing in 1979?; 12/19/20, 7:50 PM
Anonymous said...: China/Taiwan? 1949. That war never ended. Brothers will kill each other until they reunite.
70 years? Pshaw. A hundred years...a thousand years. Hatfields and McCoys. Don't get between them.; 12/19/20, 7:53 PM
Original Mike said...: "Was the US bullied by China into transferring diplomatic recognition from Taipei to Beijing in 1979?"

Maybe. Why don't we recognize them both?; 12/19/20, 8:08 PM
Anonymous said...: Have you ever got into a fight between brothers? In the end, they both turn on you.; 12/19/20, 8:15 PM
Michael K said...: steve uhr said...

I’m sure China , like Russia, want Trump as president.

Yeah, Putin loves oil at less than $40 and Xi loves the trade sanctions.

Are you really a lawyer? I guess LSATs are lower.; 12/19/20, 8:27 PM
Michael K said...: He’s ok with their human rights abuses. He envies their state-controlled media. He’s ok with their repression.

Says the Biden voter who thinks the Disney CEO will make a great ambassador.

You must be lying. Nobody is dumb enough to believe that crap, except LeBron James, of course.; 12/19/20, 8:31 PM
Achilles said...: steve uhr said...

I’m sure China , like Russia, want Trump as president.

This is how stupid you have to be to vote for Joe Biden.; 12/19/20, 8:33 PM
Original Mike said...: "He envies their state-controlled media."

That's rich.; 12/19/20, 8:37 PM
mandrewa said...: "Only about a dozen countries officially recognize Taiwan, and most of those are tiny island nations in the Caribbean and Micronesia."

The number of countries that recognize a country has nothing to do with that countries right to exist. In any case, the reason, the only reason, that Taiwan isn't recognized by every country in the world is that it would displease China.

"Why is insuring Taiwanese independence an American responsibility?"

The United States has always insured Taiwan's independence. It's not our responsibility but it has been our choice. Our interest has been in the shape of the world around us. Whether we live in a world ruled by fascists or by other democracies. Taiwan, whatever its past, is very much a democracy today.

China, under Xi, is in making territorial claims on virtually every one of its many neighbors. But the most likely location for a major war is Taiwan. For most of its history since World War II, Taiwan, with the backing of the US, has been out of China's military reach. But in the last two decades China has been building a military force that is unmatched by any other country in the world, absent the US.

What would China gain at this time by an invasion and forcible integration of Taiwan?

The CCP would gain distraction from internal problems, perhaps a major collapse in the price of apartments, which is the only asset that the Chinese middle class, and most members of the Communist Party, by and large have. Superstition is widespread in China, and if enough unlucky things happen, the government will become vulnerable.

In any case regardless of whether the CCP plans to invade Taiwan, they are certainly building the capability to do so. And they are constantly threatening Taiwan.

"why is insuring Taiwanese independence an American responsibility?"

"Didn't say it was, But under Trump we didn't have to lift a finger to ensure it."

Trump has offered a lot of support to Taiwan during his administration, everything from major arms sales, stuff Obama would never sell to them, to sailing mass formations of American ships through the water between China and Taiwan.; 12/19/20, 8:42 PM
mandrewa said...: "I am frequently surprised at how few people realize that the government of Taiwan is the true legitimate government of China."

No one in Taiwan really believes this any more. The CCP is obviously the government of China. Whether it's a good government is another question.

"Any difference in coverage between those news organizations that support DPP versus KMT?"

The KMT is far more friendly to China and the CCP than its opposition is. The 20% of Taiwan's population that came over to Taiwan when KMT arrived still tends to perceive itself as being Chinese and basically part of China. The 80% of Taiwan's population whose roots are older tends to perceive itself as not being part of China. But regardless very few people in Taiwan want to be ruled by the CCP.

"Was the US bullied by China into transferring diplomatic recognition from Taipei to Beijing in 1979?"

No. But the US did not abandon Taiwan either. Nixon's gamble on diplomatic recognition of China was a gamble on a better future, a gamble that 41 years later doesn't seem to be paying off.

China/Taiwan? 1949. That war never ended. Brothers will kill each other until they reunite.

It's much longer than since 1949. It's more like there has been 370 years of almost continuous conflict and or foreign occupation between China and Taiwan. The Ching dynasty went to extraordinary lengths to persecute and suppress the population of Taiwan. That persecution, which included frequent combat between Ching dynasty soldiers armed with swords and guns, and Taiwanese peasants armed with bamboo pools, went on for 250 years.
Followed by Japan occupying Taiwan for 50 years.

Three hundred seventy years is a long time. If we were talking Europe the differences would have become irrevocable by this point. But then Asia is different.; 12/19/20, 8:43 PM
mockturtle said...: Farmer asks: Was the US bullied by China into transferring diplomatic recognition from Taipei to Beijing in 1979?

I believe the operative word is 'bribed', not bullied.; 12/19/20, 9:01 PM
Original Mike said...: "Trump has offered a lot of support to Taiwan during his administration, everything from major arms sales, stuff Obama would never sell to them, to sailing mass formations of American ships through the water between China and Taiwan."

And China knew actual military action against Taiwan was playing with fire. That's what I meant by not having to lift a finger. Under Biden that risk is zero. I hope I'm wrong, but I expect China to attack Taiwan if for no other reason than as a test of their own military buildup.; 12/19/20, 9:09 PM
J. Farmer said...: @Original Mike:

Maybe. Why don't we recognize them both?

Because Taiwan's status is disputed. The US never recognized a political entity called "Taiwan." It recognized China and considered the government in Taipei the legitimate government of all of China. Following Nixon's rapprochement with China in the early 70s, we continued to recognize China but identified the government in Beijing as its legitimate government. Prior to the 1990s, Taiwan insisted as a condition of formal diplomatic ties that it be recognized as the sole government of "China."; 12/19/20, 9:49 PM
Original Mike said...: "Prior to the 1990s, Taiwan insisted as a condition of formal diplomatic ties that it be recognized as the sole government of "China.""

Probably don't anymore.; 12/19/20, 9:57 PM
The Godfather said...: Worse than Alec Baldwin's "Trump" has got to hurt.; 12/19/20, 10:01 PM
J. Farmer said...: @mandrewa:

The number of countries that recognize a country has nothing to do with that countries right to exist.

Who said it did?

Our interest has been in the shape of the world around us. Whether we live in a world ruled by fascists or by other democracies.

Meanwhile, we give full financial, diplomatic, and military support to military dictators and absolutist monarchs who are corrupt, brutal, and use torture, summary execution, and other police state tactics to suppress democratic forces.

Trump has offered a lot of support to Taiwan during his administration, everything from major arms sales, stuff Obama would never sell to them, to sailing mass formations of American ships through the water between China and Taiwan.

Obama provided a huge number of arms sales to Taiwan. The only substantial difference was the sell of F-16 fighter jets. The Obama administration opted instead to provide upgrades, logistics, training, and support to Taiwan to upgrade 144 of their existing fighter jets and provide them with more Black Hawks and two guided-missile frigates. As for transiting through the Taiwan Straits as a show of force, Clinton was the president to first make use of that strategy back in 1996. The US Navy transited the Taiwan Strait several times during the Obama administration.; 12/19/20, 10:48 PM
J. Farmer said...: Probably don't anymore.

Yeah, that's what "prior to the 1990s" meant.; 12/19/20, 10:49 PM
Original Mike said...: Yeah, thanks for the unasked for lecture.; 12/19/20, 11:00 PM
Achilles said...: Giving Taiwan a bunch of military equipment is stupid.

Just let them have nukes.

Problem solved.

China would never attack them at that point.; 12/20/20, 12:58 AM
J. Farmer said...: @Original Mike:

Yeah, thanks for the unasked for lecture.

You're welcome. And thank you for letting me know that they "probably don't anymore" do something I said they stopped doing 30 years ago. A good way to avoid unasked for lectures in the future is not writing things like, "Why don't we recognize them both?"; 12/20/20, 1:53 AM
J. Farmer said...: @Achilles:

Giving Taiwan a bunch of military equipment is stupid.

How about selling them a bunch of military equipment?

I'm not so bothered by selling them arms, but we should be explicit to them that we have no obligation to defend them in the event of a military attack. Not only is the US inserting itself between Taiwan and China but between the various factions within Taiwan itself.; 12/20/20, 2:14 AM
mandrewa said...: "...the US inserting itself between Taiwan and China..."

Oh my God, J. Farmer, just listen to you! Can we unpack that phrase and look at all of the ugly ideas behind it?

You admire the CCP don't you? I mean be honest about it. No one who was seriously upset about what the CCP is doing would say what you say.; 12/20/20, 6:19 AM
Rusty said...: "Meanwhile, we give full financial, diplomatic, and military support to military dictators and absolutist monarchs who are corrupt, brutal, and use torture, summary execution, and other police state tactics to suppress democratic forces."
like what Obama did with the Ayatollahs?

"...the US inserting itself between Taiwan and China..."
Something Trump was very good at. While at the same time not sending troops.; 12/20/20, 8:26 AM
Achilles said...: J. Farmer said...

Not only is the US inserting itself between Taiwan and China but between the various factions within Taiwan itself.

I want the US to defend liberty and promote freedom all over the world. It is a far better thing to spend our resources on than paying people not to work.

To actually defend it. I want them to actually support anyone in the world that is fighting a tyrannical regime.

The problem with going to war over this is that the people in DC that run our wars are cynical disgusting evil shitheads who don't care about the liberty vs. tyranny thing.

Not the actual fighting for liberty part no matter how messy it gets.; 12/20/20, 8:51 AM
J. Farmer said...: @mandrewa:

Oh my God, J. Farmer, just listen to you! Can we unpack that phrase and look at all of the ugly ideas behind it?

I would absolutely love to unpack that phrase and the ideas behind it. Unfortunately, there's your very next sentence, "You admire the CCP don't you?" As is so often the case in these fucking threads, a conflict of ideas is immediately abandoned in favor of personal attacks. Feel free to assume I'm the most godawful, evil person in the world. I don't really give a fuck. The strength of my reasoning and the validity of any argument I make is completely independent of my character. Notice how my earlier response to you required zero assumptions on my part about your character. Whether you were the noblest person on earth or most degenerate, my responses to you would stay exactly the same. That is the core of the ad hominem fallacy.; 12/20/20, 9:26 AM
J. Farmer said...: @Achilles:

I want the US to defend liberty and promote freedom all over the world. It is a far better thing to spend our resources on than paying people not to work.

Unfortunately, very rarely do conflicts in the world come down to simplistic dichotomies of tyranny vs liberty. Often it's one form of tyranny versus another form of tyranny. And even groups that begin with ostensibly libertarian goals can easily descend into tyrannies. To me, the central insight of conservatism is to be extremely skeptical of revolutionary change.

There is also the irony that in order for the US to maintain such a global presence requires a massive centralized state, which threatens our own liberty. That was the point John Quincy Adams made in his famous speech on July 4, 1821 commemorating the anniversary of the Declaration. I think his advice is as prudent now as it was then. "She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own. She will commend the general cause by the countenance of her voice, and the benignant sympathy of her example."; 12/20/20, 9:41 AM
mandrewa said...: "...the US inserting itself between Taiwan and China..."

(a) This statement implies that Taiwan in some sense belongs to China.

(b) You're fully aware that very few people in Taiwan want to be ruled by the CCP, and therefore you're implicitly discounting their choice.

(c) You know that Taiwan has a population of about 23 million and China is at about 1.3 billion. That's about a 56 fold disparity. You know that Taiwan will lose a war with China if it does not have allies.

(d) A corollary to (a) is the implication that the United States is out-of-place and interfering if it makes an alliance with Taiwan.

"Unfortunately, very rarely do conflicts in the world come down to simplistic dichotomies of tyranny vs liberty. Often it's one form of tyranny versus another form of tyranny."

Yes, that's true. Except that doesn't apply to this case, since the difference between Taiwan and China is a dramatic. When we support a government in Turkey there is often the question of what actually we are supporting.

But in the case of Taiwan, there is not the same question. Taiwan may be more democratic than the United States at this point. Taiwan is also not really all that alien. Taiwan has been hugely influenced by the United States over the last 70 years, and there are a large numbers of Taiwanese immigrants in the United States.

"To me, the central insight of conservatism is to be extremely skeptical of revolutionary change."

Well I agree. And Taiwan has been through the equivalent of "revolutionary change" over the last 70 years. So far the result seems to be pretty good, unlike the history of most revolutions.

"There is also the irony that in order for the US to maintain such a global presence requires a massive centralized state, which threatens our own liberty."

Yes. And we may have destroyed ourselves in the process since we may have created a deep-state that is now the power actually running the country and which we cannot vote out.; 12/20/20, 2:16 PM
Narr said...: Farmer: There is also the irony that in order for the US to maintain such a global presence requires a massive centralized state, which threatens our own liberty."

Mandrewa: Yes. And we may have destroyed ourselves in the process since we may have created a deep-state that is now the power actually running the country and which we cannot vote out.

**************

If we've destroyed our own government of laws, then the fate of Taiwan is the least of my worries. And it's almost impossible for imperial hegemons like us NOT to go the way of most, and lose internal liberties in the fight to sustain foreign power.

For one thing, Deep States have a hard time convincing the populace that their war-scares are worthy of belief and their wars worthy of support. Once the illusion has been shattered (and it has taken long enough) that the elites have any notion of reality beyond the maintenance of control, the people won't have any reason to follow them.

Narr
Hasten the day!; 12/20/20, 3:22 PM
Josephbleau said...: I understand now that a supple erect China with it’s sphincter closed can suck Taiwan inside itself with results welcome to each. So there is no problem at all. Hong Kong same same.; 12/20/20, 4:21 PM
Josephbleau said...: Why does China lust after Taiwan and Hong Kong, is it because they want to improve the lives of the people there? No they have 100,000 locales in China equivalent to them, but under British governance Hong Kong is a leader in world finance and under US teaching Taiwan is a leader in advanced manufacturing, China has to steal intellectual property to keep up in these fields and wants to steal these two places too. The problem is they will get a little benefit, but will destroy the golden goose, and not get any long term benefit. To be pc we say that the Chinese are smarter and better educated and have millions more engineers. That has not mattered yet, they still lag, but the future always belongs to them. Meanwhile they bribe US professors to pass on valuable us financed research. Not to mention bribing US pols.; 12/20/20, 4:38 PM
Josephbleau said...: In the US h1b engineers are Chinese or Indian. You seldom see Japanese, Taiwanese, or Singaporean ones. This is because there is insufficient opportunity or reward for these fields in China and India. US universities educate these nationals on temporary visas and each student works hard to parlay this into a work visa after graduation. Chinese engineers dream of moving back to China later, Indians don’t want to move back.; 12/20/20, 5:21 PM
Rusty said...: The Taiwanese and Hong Kongers are not inheritors of our national creed. They therefore deserve whatever fate their betters in the CCP give them. They are not entitled to life. Any kind of liberty. And they will be told what their best interests-happiness-are. For them to hope of anything else is unrealistic.
That about right J.?; 12/20/20, 5:37 PM
Anonymous said...: Why has China not seen the superiority of the freedom of America? They could not figure out interspatial missile technology even though Americans did. Chinese mathematicians are the best in the world! Why did they get stuck, when Americans didn't. The best American minds can hear the music of math. The Chinese can't. Chinese see only logic & reason.

That's important, but it ain't enough.

So...they approach the Clintons to give them a short cut to the technology in exchange for bags of cash.

There, is the weakness of America. The face we present to other nations is the Bidens. Gimmee, gimmee. The Clinton foundation...gimmee, gimmee.

It's been a long road from when Gen. George Washington bent down to his knees, and recognized that the fight was not his. The fight is eternal. George Washington only prayed, "God. Thy will be done.; 12/20/20, 6:24 PM