September 18, 2020

Completely debunked?


I understand the fear of Joe Rogan, but don't overstate your factchecking. Business Insider says "Joe Rogan falsely blamed forest fires in Oregon on 'left-wing' activists":
Authorities and fact-checkers have repeatedly debunked the idea that left-wing activists, such as members of the loose-knit antifa movement, have been intentionally setting forest fires.

"FBI Portland and local law enforcement agencies have been receiving reports that extremists are responsible for setting wildfires in Oregon. With our state and local partners, the FBI has investigated several such reports and found them to be untrue," Loren Cannon, the special agent in charge of the FBI office covering Portland, said in a statement posted to Twitter by FBI Portland....

Joy Krawczyk, a representative for the Oregon Department of Forestry, told The New York Times "we're not seeing any indications of a mass politically influenced arson campaign."
But Joe Rogan didn't say there was a "mass... arson campaign."  He said, "They've arrested left-wing people for lighting these forest fires, air-quote 'activists'... people have actually been arrested for lighting fires up there."

While the FBI — as of 9/11/20 — may have "investigated several such reports and found them to be untrue" that doesn't mean that there couldn’t  be other reports that, if investigated, could be true. If you want to "completely debunk" what Joe Rogan said, you have to show that NO LEFT-WING ACTIVISTS HAVE BEEN ARRESTED for lighting any forest fires.

Is this article published yesterday in The Blaze — "At least 13 people have been arrested for West Coast arson crimes" — just a pack of lies? Even if it is, it's enough to make if wrong to say "completely debunked." It names names of 13 persons arrested.

ADDED: The worst problem with Rogan's statement is "these": "They've arrested left-wing people for lighting these forest fires." That could be understood to mean that all of the forest fires are attributable to left-wing arsonists. He talks for hours, so you can hardly expect him to hit rock-solid precision, but it would have been better to say "They've arrested left-wing people for lighting some of these forest fires." If you don't understand "these forest fires" to mean "some of these forest fires," then, of course, it's very easy to go big and proclaim that the claim that you're seeing is "completely debunked." It's 100% untrue that 100% of the fires were set by left-wingers. Duh! But no one is saying that. That's exactly what we call a straw man argument.

141 comments:

Mid-Life Lawyer said...

Claims that Joe Rogan's statement that left wing activists started some of the fires out west had been completely debunked have now been completely debunked.

gilbar said...

so? there is no arson?
or, the people arrested were all Hawaiian shirt wearing white nationalists?

how come ONE side's assertions need proof,
and the other side's are accepted as GOSPEL?

rehajm said...

It depends on the definition of left-wing, activists, fires, forest, starting, Oregon...

Leland said...

May this red pill be taken by others.

daskol said...

It's far easier to kick a straw man's ass than Joe's.

Quaestor said...

Joy Krawczyk, a representative for the Oregon Department of Forestry, told The New York Times "we're not seeing any indications of a mass politically influenced arson campaign."

Business Insider employs writers who cannot or will not extract logical conclusions from their own reportage.

Sad.

mezzrow said...

"Forget it, Jake. It's Media Matters."

stlcdr said...

It doesn’t seem too hard to actually find evidence, even if it’s local news reports, that people have been setting fires. It’s not even incorrect to call them ‘activists’.

In this day and age, why is it so hard to find the truth? Ah, because you still have to look for it. At one point, we used to trust journalists to do that - it’s their job. Now, not at all.

I'm Full of Soup said...

Interesting that the Blaze was able to find and report these arrests yet the MSM embargoes it from us.

stlcdr said...

Oh, and this is not the path that the left is taking: take something out of context, exaggerate it to the point that it bears little relation to the original, use that as a ‘quote’, then publish and debunk that creation. Aka. Fake news.

Skeptical Voter said...

Progressives love to talk about "completely debunked". Name the topic, it's been "completely debunked". The God of Snopes is frequently cited.

Mike (MJB Wolf) said...

Straw man arguments go up in smoke. I’m intensely interested in how and why “reporters” expend so much effort trying to deny facts. That wasn’t even a function of the “journalism” I learned. It is a thoroughly modern pursuit of these lefty truth arsonists.

Pillage Idiot said...

I am a scientist. Let us try for absolute precision.

When the authorities and fact-checkers have determined the cause of EVERY SINGLE forest fire in Oregon, and only one or zero is determined to have been caused by "left-wing" activists, then they can say they have debunked the statement "left-wing activists are starting forest fires in Oregon."

Until then, they are just making specious assertions without evidence .

GatorNavy said...

I am anticipating that these trust fund Antifa screaming garbage babies to be declared a protected class by CNN, ABC, CBS, FOX, MSNBC, NBC, BBC, AP, Reuters, the DNC and the Biden campaign. Just like all the other infantilized special interests that are currently under totalitarian left wing protection.

Retail Lawyer said...

Sure seems to me that the governments are too quick to say "nothing to see here. Just go back to putting out the urban fires that leftist radicals are starting daily."

Now why would the government do that?

Sebastian said...

"That's exactly what we call a straw man argument."

Yeah, yeah. But is there any prog argument that does not somehow involve a straw man? Any example of any prog arguing anything in good faith?

hawkeyedjb said...

Yeah, well. There's arson, and there's arson-arson. Exquisite degrees of difference.

Wince said...

Rogan is now officially on the radar, getting a taste of the Deep State treatment for his Biden senility comments and debate challenge.

That's exactly what we call a straw man argument.

In baseball, it's called a 'brush-back'.

"Here Scarecrow, want to play ball?"

mikee said...

Please, oh please, Althouse, keep posting Rogan and never again pollute your website with mention of a Dowd column.

wendybar said...

You are just catching on that the media has been lying to us this whole time?? They figure, the more they tell the lie, the more the uninformed will believe them...and look at what we have happening in America today BECAUSE of all their lies. It's time for normal people to wake up, and smell the lefts propaganda coffee....because this is all they have...and it may work for them.

Temujin said...

Well...people have been arrested for starting fires up there. And some of them have been on video. No- we don't know the extent of it, and I am sure that nature had a lot to do with these fires. Piles and piles of deadwood & dried brush + lightning = fires. Poor forest management (or no forest management) will do that. But knowing that, and seeing a chance to create more havoc while knowing your media buddies will roll out the 'Climate Change/Trump's fault' commentaries, is an attraction no anarchist could pass up.

This clearly would be right up Antifa's alley. So seeing some of them setting fires on video is not surprising.

Lucid-Ideas said...

In other news, people who are good at setting fires in cities have been seen and some apprehended setting fires in rural areas. Our fact-checkers are saying that there is nothing definitive to see here.

News at 11.

Rob said...

What is the opposite of “debunked”? Bunked?

narciso said...

recall that two billion dollars have been extorted from american businesses by the thousand currents organization, the same amount as the insurance damage,

Fernandinande said...

It seems to me it'd be very easy to start a wildfire and not get caught, and the people who are caught mostly don't "look quite right." e.g.1, e.g.2 ...

As someone else noticed, the fires seemed to be arranged along highways, which implies human causes, though not necessarily arson.

It's surprisingly difficult to find out "what percentage of wildfires are caused by people" vs lightning, but found 60% to 80% caused by lightning in small samples.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wildfire#Causes doesn't say.

Lightning a major cause of wildfires, reveals NASA study, the article expands "major" to "most".

daskol said...

It's too bad for the Antifa crowd, but Antifa Arsonist is a pleasant combination. Alliterative and truthy.

Temujin said...

As was pointed out by I'm full of soup, without realizing when it happened, this has come to pass: A huge chunk of the populace no longer looks to the talking heads, newsreaders in our mainstream media for information. We have long passed the time when they were a source of reliable information and instead, have been shown to do whatever it takes- including destroying their own industry/reputations- to hold to the party line.

Look no further than their minimal, yet negative coverage of Trump's Middle East agreements between Israel and two Arab countries- UAE and Bahrain. AND the agreements between Kosovo and Serbia. These are both world-changing events. The press answer? Meh. Negative meh.

We have other sources of information now, scores of them. And as time goes on, the talking heads on MSM will be speaking to an increasingly smaller group of people until it reaches the point where they won't even need to leave their Washington DC cocktail parties. They can talk to their complete audience in a room at their party.

Remember- Obama got a Nobel Peace Prize for putting his shoes on the right feet. Trump did this actual peace arrangement, in multiple hotspots in the world, and they want him removed from office.

Fernandinande said...

"Half-headed" Carlos Rodriguez, 31, was arrested earlier this week in Miami on arson and first-degree attempted murder charges.

Another old lawyer said...

Everyone talks first draft, especially podcasters speaking for hours.

Can Of Cheese for Hunter said...

2 billion in damage from some BLM + mostly White LEFT antifa arsonists and brown-shirts...


collective left sing "that's a lie!"

Dust Bunny Queen said...

If you have been de-bunked...what does being bunked mean? Is is just all bunk?

Of course some of the fires have been started by arson. Some in our area have been. Why do people set fire to things? Lots of reasons. Many of them psychological and sick.

HOWEVER...the recent spate of conveniently located fires started along highways and road do seem mightily suspicious. And for a FACT....antifa people have been ACTUALLY caught setting fires and boasting about it on social media.

Other fires had been started by dry lightning storm and long smoldering little fires in remote areas. This is completely normal and to be expected.

Not every fire is set by arsonists. Not every predator in the wild is going to attack me...but just to be safe, I take the view that I don't go hiking in the woods without a gun.

gilbar said...

"Joe Rogan falsely blamed forest fires in Oregon on 'left-wing' activists":

serious questions

what about the Urban fires? You know, the ones started during the 'mostly peaceful' protests?
were Any of Them started by 'left-wing' activists?
is BLM a group, or just a way of thinking?
is Antifa a group, or just a way of thinking?
to be 'activists', do you have to be a card carrying member of an organized group?
have there Actually BEEN Any protests in Oregon, or did we all just hallucinate them?
have there Actually BEEN Any fires in Oregon, or did we all hallucinate them too?
what IS reality ?

we Have to decide between using our eyes, or blindly trusting the media; we must trust the media

gilbar said...

"That's exactly what we call a straw man argument."

WAIT JUST a Minute! NO WONDER there are ALL THESE FIRES! With all this straw laying around!!

Can Of Cheese for Hunter said...

Leftists lie.

They all lie. They will start a fire right in front of you then call you a liar for noticing.

Can Of Cheese for Hunter said...

Last I checked, all it takes is for one angry leftwing Molotov cocktail wielding asshole to start a really large fire.

Can Of Cheese for Hunter said...

Funny how the MSM fall all over themselves to cover and protect "Loose-knit Antifa"

BarrySanders20 said...

Those responsible for sacking the people who have just been sacked, have been sacked.

Mynd you, møøse bites Kan be pretty nasti... especially from those fleeing homes set ablaze by from left wing arsonists.

Mark O said...

Who fact checks the factcheckers, if the factcheckers could check facts?

Can Of Cheese for Hunter said...

Your morning White Left

John Borell said...

"Fact Checkers" have been completely debunked. They are utterly useless for the task they profess to perform. They are ideologically driven.

They cannot use basic logic. They cannot use basic English.

Utterly useless.

Can Of Cheese for Hunter said...

If Joe said "Some" - the reaction from the hacks in the press and the collective liar left would be the same.


ga6 said...

Cue Colonel Jessup.

Can Of Cheese for Hunter said...

George Soros, who is a billionaire many times over, - gives generously to insert leftwing DA's all over the nation.

Leftwing DA's make it possible for local antifa to do their dirty work with ease.

Prove me wrong.

Fubar.N.Wass said...

Fortunately, Marin County does not need to worry about arson.

We're special.

https://www.sfchronicle.com/crime/article/Police-search-for-arson-suspect-connected-to-15338011.php

https://www.kron4.com/news/bay-area/man-arrested-suspected-of-lighting-fires-in-marin-county/

Char Char Binks, Esq. said...

What kind of carbon footprint is David Lopez Jr. leaving, and will the resultant Global Warming/Cooling lead to more wildfires?

Also, why the lower-case “antifa”? Don’t they have a shared sense of identity, culture, and history?

MikeR said...

It would be good to know if any of them are antifa. But if they're on the West Coast, most of them are lunatic left-wing activists by the law of averages.

Static Ping said...

Considering the very low quality of fact checking these days, fact checkers debunking anything is meaningless. They need to show their work. Trusting fact checker headlines borders on willful ignorance.

The authorities, especially in Oregon, have not exactly proven themselves to be unbiased competent actors either.

Ken B said...

Fuck it. Elect Joe Rogan. I know he's a Bernie supporter, but fuck it. Elect Joe Rogan.

Amadeus 48 said...

Whenever I see the words "fact-checker" my baloney detector goes off the charts. The fact checkers are all lefty hacks.

Fact check: I use "hack" to mean a person who exploits his or her creative ability or training in the production of dull, unimaginative, and trite work for ideological reasons. An abuser of truthiness.

Ken B said...

This is the MSM playbook. Publish a bogus claim early. Refer to it over and over, even if it was refuted.

Freder Frederson said...

Sheesh, even the best The Blaze can do is connect one of the 13 arrests to BLM (and that case, at least the arson part, is tenuous at best). If you look at the rest, there is either no connection (homeless people, illegal marijuana growers, mentally ill), or a very tenuous connection (one of the others was "rumored" to be Antifa, but the arresting authorities denied it).

In the meantime, armed men have taken it upon themselves to patrol rural areas, stop cars, and search for Antifa and BLM arsonists. Rogan's insistence that assertion might not be "thoroughly debunked", but it is extremely reckless to claim that "They've arrested left-wing people for lighting these forest fires, air-quote 'activists'... people have actually been arrested for lighting fires up there."

Left Bank of the Charles said...

Althouse has succumbed to where there is smoke there is fire inhalation.

CJinPA said...

I said it before, Rogan's show will be driven off the air.

Freder Frederson said...

As someone else noticed, the fires seemed to be arranged along highways, which implies human causes, though not necessarily arson.

Dragging trailer chains are a frequent cause of forest fires. Google it. And one vehicle can cause several fires as the sparks fly.

"According to the Arizona Department of Forestry and Fire Management, dragging chains is one of the main causes of fires along highways."

JAORE said...

If it hurts the left, the reports are debunked.

If it hurts the right the reports are accurate, contain factual information or,if actually debunked, are lied about by, oh say, the Democratic Party Presidential candidate.

Jersey Fled said...

"Debunked" in Lefty Talk means that they choose not to believe it. They throw that term around so carelessly that it can have no other meaning.

Jeff Brokaw said...

Good takedown.

And what is the likelihood that law enforcement has arrested 100% of the perpetrators?

Probably right around 0%.

Can Of Cheese for Hunter said...

Arsonists Are Targeting Homes With American Flags

JAORE said...

There is none so blind as he who will not look.

Josephbleau said...

All wildfires are caused by global warming, lightning a major cause of wildfires, reveals NASA study, therefore global warming is causative for lightning.

Jupiter said...

It's almost like you're saying, "Lying liars who always lie caught lying again!".

Can Of Cheese for Hunter said...

Listen again to Joe on the link.

"This is not being widely reported"

Joe is 100% right. The hack press are not reporting that leftwing activists are behind 2 billion in damage all over the nation... and yes also - lighting fires all over the place. In cities.. in forests, on private and public land.

the hack press rush in to cover for the leftists.

why?

anyone got an answer? gee? we wonder...

buwaya said...

Its a propaganda machine in a state of civil conflict, truth is the first casualty, arguing with mercenaries is shouting at a wall, yadda yadda, broken record.

Persistence worked for Cato the elder, so maybe, one day.

Todd said...

Funny how that works:

Even if you have video proof, audio files, signed communications, anything reflecting badly on lefties is "debunked fake news".

Any old made up shit, even after actual proof it is shit, is rock solid FACT when it reflects badly on the right!

Lefties are total shit. Did you happen to see this video?

https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1306782830400344065

Jupiter said...

In the house I grew up in, the Eugene Register-Guard was delivered every day. Sometimes in the morning, sometimes ion the afternoon, but every day. And as soon as I could read, I began to read it, pretty much front to back, every day. When I moved, as I did fairly often for much of my life, I would immediately arrange to have "the Paper" delivered to my new address. The process by which I learned that the Paper is written by lying liars who always lie was a long and slow one. Now I have to wonder; Has it changed? Or was it always written by lying liars who always lie?

Nonapod said...

As an aside, I really dislike Roe Jogan's new studio. It looks like he's broadcasting from the bridge of a Klingon Bird of Prey.

J Melcher said...

There is also a video circulating that purports to originate from earlier than the fires; from a clerical leader of other-than-Christian faith tradition; urging followers to start forest fires.

Not going to the question of whether it's true, but is a cleric necessarily of either the right or left "wings" of a political spectrum?

Francisco D said...

Haven't you right wing Trumpists ever heard of spontaneous combustion?

It happens all the time, especially in areas where there are peaceful protests against White Supremacy.

Evidence? I don't need evidence. I have lived experience.

NorthOfTheOneOhOne said...

I'm wondering if the fires are a rogue Antifa operation. They seem to be going to such great lengths deny involvement it's hard to believe that they actually set out to do this on purpose. But then, I'm probably giving Antifa a little too much credit. They've never seemed capable of long term planning.

Can Of Cheese for Hunter said...

Why do so many democratic and leftwing journos feel the need to cover for leftwing activists?
Leftwing activists caught each night across our nation doing their dirty deeds. Inspired by the very top of the Democrat party. Is that why the media play cover?

Not only cover, but out and out LIE and play like it's all a myth? Why are the leftwing press so interested in playing cover for obvious leftwing deviancy? 2 billion in damage is just a figment of our imagination?

Could it be that Nancy and Maxine asked for it?

Some Pelosi quotes to ponder:

Nancy Pelosi labels Republicans "domestic enemies...enemies of the state"

Speaker Nancy Pelosi downplaying the violence/ripping down statues in U.S. cities, ignorantly saying, "People will do what they do."

“I just don’t even know why there aren’t uprisings all over the country,.." -Pelosi

really...
and on and on...

Nancy asked Antifa to do what they do. Antifa responded. 2 billion in damage. Inside of the heart of that damage-> black neighborhoods and black owned businesses - destroyed. burned to the ground. Now, antifa set their sights on lighting up the tinder - and the hack press play cover.


McEnany Shreds Media and Democrats for Attempted Gaslighting on Riots, Violence

remember this?

Maxine Waters encourages supporters to harass Trump administration officials

viola! Antfia brown-shirts accept the mission.

Achilles said...

buwaya said...

Its a propaganda machine in a state of civil conflict, truth is the first casualty, arguing with mercenaries is shouting at a wall, yadda yadda, broken record.

It will come down to civil war.

Trump will win on November 3rd. Decisively.

Democrat Governors in Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Michigan etc will refuse to certify the results citing mail in ballots.

Neither candidate will reach 270 votes in the electoral college.

The House will elect Joe Biden after 30 million mail in ballots are "found."

Prepare.

hombre said...

The Ashland Police Chief, he of the “hug and release” school of policing, said days ago it was “100% certain” that left wing activist didn’t set any of the Ashland/Medford fires. 100% certain?

So if you are too stupid to know you are lying, is it the truth?

I'm Not Sure said...

""Fact Checkers" have been completely debunked."

Has that been confirmed?

Achilles said...

Everyone out here knows democrats are starting these fires.

Narayanan said...

how about debunk this >>> arsonists and fire lighters have shown sympathy for leftism / leftists have shown support for lighting fires / opposition to fire fighters

Ambrose said...

The sheer vehemence with which these arson claims are shouted down as "debunked" make some suspicious.

Ambrose said...

The sheer vehemence with which these arson claims are shouted down as "debunked" make some suspicious.

stlcdr said...

Todd said...
Funny how that works:

Even if you have video proof, audio files, signed communications, anything reflecting badly on lefties is "debunked fake news"....


And since it has been debunked, any evidence to the contrary posted to social media is taken down because it is propagating fake news...a vicious cycle.

Narayanan said...

"Debunked" in Lefty Talk >>>
I take it to mean out of the bunker or out in open not secret anymore -

as in Biden is bunked / Trump is debunked

Original Mike said...

Where would anyone get the idea that lefty activists have a proclivity for starting fires?

Bruce Hayden said...

“ In the meantime, armed men have taken it upon themselves to patrol rural areas, stop cars, and search for Antifa and BLM arsonists.”

Not sure what your point is. These Marxist scum brought that upon themselves by burning down their cities, to the extent that it is really happening, which I doubt. Of course the rest of the country is worried about them leaving their cities, where they are protected by the politicians, and bringing the fight, and their fires, to their rest of us. The problem is that it is usually easier to control fires In their cities, than it is wildfires out in rural America. Much harder in many cases. So, no, AntiFA and BLM Commie Scum are not welcome in much of this country, nor should they be. If they really do start driving around the countryside, setting a lot of wildfires (assuming that they can borrow a car from their parents), I will gladly volunteer to man roadblocks to keep their sorry asses out of here. And, yes I will be armed, as will everyone else doing the same.

rcocean said...

We all know MSM "fact checking" is a lie. Its just another attempt to MSM Claim to objectivity to clothe their left-wing propaganda and bias. Antifa has been setting fires, whether it all of them is unknown. What is known is that SOME Of them are set by antifa.

But notice how the burden of proof ALWAYS increases when its the left being attacked. Innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. But with the Right, its any anonymous source or suspicion is acceptable. Accuse Joe Biden of sexual assault and the MSM will refuse to report it for a week, then dismiss it as "NOT CREEDIBLE" because "Not proven beyond a reasonable doubt". Accuse Trump, and its headlines every day for two weeks. Any any accusation is on its face "credible".

Can Of Cheese for Hunter said...

Here are the details

1. Jeffrey Acord, 36, was arrested in Puyallup, Washington, last Wednesday on reckless burning charges. When police arrived on the scene, Acord reportedly started Facebook livestreaming the incident to act like he had discovered the fire. Acord is a known Black Lives Matter activist who led a BLM rally in June. He had previously been arrested on weapons charges during a 2014 protest in Ferguson, Missouri.

2. Elijas Newton Pendergrass, 44, was arrested under suspicion of starting the Sweet Creek Milepost 2 fire west of Eugene, Oregon, earlier this month. That fire has burned hundreds of acres and prompted evacuations.

3. Christine Comello, 36, was arrested in Spokane, Washington, last week on first- and second-degree arson charges. She had allegedly started fires near a commercial business and an old oil drum that reportedly "gave the fire the potential to explode into something much larger."

4. Domingo Lopez Jr., 45, was arrested near Portland, Oregon, this week for starting a fire using a Molotov cocktail. A day later, police said he was arrested again for starting six more small brushfires. He was taken to a hospital for a mental health evaluation and is being held on a total of seven counts of reckless burning.

5. Michael Jarrod Bakkela, 41, was arrested in Phoenix, Oregon, last week on two counts of arson, 15 counts of criminal mischief, and 14 counts of reckless endangerment. According to police, Bakkela is responsible for setting one of the two origins of the Almeda fire, which burned thousands of acres in southern Oregon and has killed two people. As of last week, 50 people remain unaccounted for as a result of the fire.

6. Jonathan Maas, 44, was arrested in Dexter, Oregon, for allegedly starting a fire in the woods near a frisbee golf course.

7. Anita Esquivel, 37, was arrested in Salinas, California, for allegedly starting multiple fires along Highway 101. There were reportedly some indications that Esquivel was connected to Antifa, but the Monterey County District Attorney's Office has since denied those allegations.

8. Osmin Palencia, 36, a homeless man, was arrested last month for allegedly starting the Ranch 2 Fire in Azusa, California. That fire ended up burning through nearly 5,000 acres of land and took hundreds of firefighters to contain.

9. Ivan Geronimo Gomez, 31, has been arrested under suspicion that he was involved in starting the massive Dolan Fire in Big Sur, California, which has burned through at least 23,000 acres. Gomez was also detained under suspicion of illegal marijuana cultivation.

10. Sammy Piatt, 53, was arrested for setting a pile of leaves on fire near a county building last Friday in Oregon City, Oregon..

11. Jett Avery Thomas, 36, was arrested for allegedly trying to set a hotel gas pipe on fire in Portland, Oregon.

12. John Davies, 55, and reportedly a transient, was arrested earlier this month for starting multiple fires in Novato, California.

13. Jacob Altona, 28, was arrested after being chased by cops along State Route 512 and State Route 7 in Washington. He was alleged to have started a fire in the brush along the highway.

rcocean said...

Biden has been asked fewer questions in 4 months, than trump takes in 4 days. And they're all softballs, and almost every Trump question is neutral or hostile. The press bias has never been more blatant or dishonest. Do the DUMBO's see it? Or do they ACCEPT it?

Birches said...

A coordinated operation campaign to get spotify to drop him. It's pretty obvious when you look at the replies to the original tweet.

Pretty weak sauce, but then again these leftists have gotten anything against the Narrative on COVID blacklisted from youtube and twitter.

Hacks.

Birches said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
NCMoss said...

Isn't "13" a baker's dozen? Guilty!

hombre said...

‘Joy Krawczyk, a representative for the Oregon Department of Forestry, told The New York Times "we're not seeing any indications of a mass politically influenced arson campaign."’

Dissect that one. My summer condo is six blocks from the source of the Almeda Fire. It is being investigated as an arson. A “transient” was arrested in Phoenix for trying to start another fire. His motive is as yet unknown. Another man arrested outside Portland for starting several fires along I-5. Another outside Eugene, motives unreported. So “mass” is probably confirmed. “Arson” is confirmed. It is unlikely that Krawczyk can eliminate politics as an influence or that it is a campaign.

What she says she can’t know. It is typical NYT bullshit, but at least it is not anonymous. The bottom line is nobody knows, but if the law enforcement people discount the possibility of politically motived arson, we will never know. That would suit the Democrats.

Can Of Cheese for Hunter said...

A vote for Biden is a vote for Antifa, and the lying hack press.

Static Ping said...

To put my two cents into the matter, could I believe that Antifa and their supporters are setting fires? Yes. They do it in Portland all the time, including inside of buildings with people inside. Setting forest fires amongst the deplorables would not be out of character, other than it is highly likely that the deplorables would start shooting them. Antifa seem only to be interested in rioting in low-risk environments.

Do I believe that random pyromaniacs would be attracted to chaotic environments in order to set fires? Yes, I would believe that, too, and Oregon is nothing if not chaotic at the moment. Could I believe that the fires are being set by locals and/or accidents and/or natural causes? Sure.

I should also note that when people are acting badly, as Antifa is most definitely doing so, it is not unusual to blame them for things that they are only tangentially involved with or not involved with at all other than being in the same general area. To say that absolving them of this particular crime makes them look better is laughable. They are still terrible, violent terrorists.

MD Greene said...

What is remarkable about these fires, as opposed to those in the last big fire year of 2017, is that many more of these have burned areas near cities and highways.

Temujin said...

If they drive Rogan off the air, he will do his own thing. It's happening more and more. Check out Outkick. Or The Blaze. People are getting tired of being censored or managed to the point of idiocy. So they are striking out to form their own networks, their own monetizing platform. Outkick is growing rapidly and seriously right now. Filling a market need.

Rogan would have backers. He could do it as well, if it came to that. And someday he might just say, screw it- I'm doing my own network, my own way.

Speaking of Big Ten Football: (scroll down for some hilarity)
If the Big 10 had a Zoom meeting

Michael K said...

"They've arrested left-wing people for lighting these forest fires, air-quote 'activists'... people have actually been arrested for lighting fires up there."

Detective Freder is on the case but might have missed this young woman who arrested an arsonist caught "red haded" so to speak.

hombre said...

Have to wonder why our local lefties find it necessary to defend known arsonists in this instance instead of waiting for the outcome of the investigations. Must be because the investigator didn’t find BLM or Antifa ID cards on the arrestees.

Of course Freder knows that homeless people, marijuana growers and mentally ill people aren’t political activists. So there is that, although some might say that BLM/Antifa activists are mostly mentally ill.

RichardJohnson said...

FB “fact-checkers” say there is no evidence that the wildfires are set by arsonists. Obviously these fires start naturally, at regular intervals, right along a highway.

Dagwood said...

Temujin said - Remember- Obama got a Nobel Peace Prize for putting his shoes on the right feet.

-------------------------------

And even then Bill Ayers had to tie the laces for him.

Drago said...

We are about 15 minutes away from Freder claiming hawaiian shirt wearing boogaloo-ers received large gauge chain from the Bundy's and McCloskey's to drag down the highway's in western states to start fires and then blame it on the naive innocent "peaceful protesters" of antifa/BLM.

Jupiter said...

Freder Frederson said...
"Sheesh, even the best The Blaze can do is connect one of the 13 arrests to BLM".

Freder, are you trying to pretend that BLM would deplore forest fires? What, they only like to see cities burn? Or maybe those fires in Kenosha were started by somebody's trailer dragging its chain? Tell us, Freder. Be sure to start out with "Sheesh", it makes you sound almost like a human being.

Sam L. said...

That's lefties for you.

Earnest Prole said...

And to think only a month ago it was horrible to say Antifa even existed.

rcocean said...

Lets see: Antifa sets fires in Portland, with multiple examples of arson or attempted arson, every other night for 100 days.

Now, multiple arson fires in the Oregon Forests. But UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES would Antifa be involved, because...uh...they only set *Urban* fires. Yeah, that's the ticket.

Honestly, its too bad average people are so passive and disengaged, because they should be mad as hell about this bullshit protection of arsonists by the Democrats and the MSM.

RobinGoodfellow said...

Alex Paterson, asserted without evidence, claims that left-wing activists are starting forest fires in Oregon has been completely debunked.

Drago said...

hombre: "Have to wonder why our local lefties find it necessary to defend known arsonists in this instance instead of waiting for the outcome of the investigations."

For the same reason they defend the ChiComs, MS13, post birth abortion, child pornography, Soleimani, the Iranians, islamic terrorists, burning down cities, killing cops, etc.

To destabilize and then destroy the United States of America and bring about a one-party marxist state.

It ain't complicated.

Bob Boyd said...

It was considerate of whoever left the brain on the beach to shield it from the government mind rays.

Original Mike said...

Frankly, for all the lies told by the democrat/left, I don't give a damn whether Rogan is accurate or not. Fuck 'em.

tim in vermont said...

In addition to the post by Bleach Bit and Hammers look at the pattern of the fires in this image with highways superimposed.

http://www.smalldeadanimals.com/index.php/2020/09/16/it-looks-like-a-line-of-fires-along-interstate-5/

It don’t look random. We are a long ways from “completely debunked.”

tim in vermont said...

BTW, My link is different than the “regular intervals” link above, which is pretty damning. Mine is on the scale of the west coast and shows something similar.

Todd said...

BleachBit-and-Hammers said...

9/18/20, 9:50 AM


Nice try BleachBit but we all KNOW better! According to Freder, these were likely all caused by these poor inattentive souls inadvertently dragging trailer chains!

gerry said...

Communists didn't kill millions, either. You are entitled to your truth, and I am entitled to mine. Vote Biden! For the American way!

Freder Frederson said...

Not sure what your point is.

My point is that if I am driving through Montana (that is where you live right) and I come upon a road block manned by some middle aged guys in camo toting AR-15s, and they try and stop and question me, I would be inclined to tell them to go fuck themselves; where I am going, who I am and what I am doing is none of their goddamned business. To act in this is way my right as an American.

Now we know, because you have posted with quite a bit of detail on this very site, that you have given careful thought to what ammunition and weapons would be most effective in killing Antifa, BLM and Marxist scum. So if I were to tell you to go fuck yourself at an illegal and unauthorized roadblock, I doubt you would take kindly to it, and say "gee you're right, go ahead". It is not unforeseeable that an innocent, albeit kind of an asshole, person would end up getting shot, or at least have the shit beat out of him, just for exercising his first amendment rights.

Freder Frederson said...

Detective Freder is on the case but might have missed this young woman who arrested an arsonist caught "red haded" so to speak.

That is alleged arsonist. In a world of concealed and open carry of deadly firearms, holding someone at gunpoint for possessing a book of matches is batshit crazy.

Even if the guy was trying to start a fire, it is a leap to declare him a member of Antifa.

Vance said...

Here in central Utah, a couple of weeks ago we had a series of 14 fires all started on the same day, along the same road, at regular intervals….. a dirt road on the top of the mountains right in the middle of tinder dry forest. Thankfully the forest service got it under control very, very quickly, or we’d have had a 400,000 acre fire in no time.

How about that, Freder? Chain caused that one too? Especially the ones where they found the gas can remnants at the source of the fire? The antifa person just happened to lose 14 gas cans every couple of miles and his dragging chain just sparked them off, about 200 feet from the road?

Those are your facts, eh, that we should believe?

Can Of Cheese for Hunter said...

Freder - why so touchy about defending antifa?

It's like the memo went out:
- ignore all antifa /while left quietly promote antifa. Antifa are the good guys - as they destroy with the same level of anger felt after Hillary lost.

Blame the Russians. oh the anger.

Inspire and promote and excuse antifa/ but/ when antifa is to blame for actual 2 billion in destruction + arson (see footage at Andy NGO's) deny deny deny!

Can Of Cheese for Hunter said...

The left then go on to create fake scenarios in their myth-hivemind to help ignore reality and actual footage. and 2 billion in damage.

If some dudes want to ban together to protect private property from Antifa - well, that's what will happen.

if some folks want to use their legal firearms to protect police - because democrats want to de-fund police - well - that's what is gonna happen.

chose your side.

leftists cover for antifa because that is the side then have chosen.

Michael K said...

That is alleged arsonist. In a world of concealed and open carry of deadly firearms, holding someone at gunpoint for possessing a book of matches is batshit crazy.

Even if the guy was trying to start a fire, it is a leap to declare him a member of Antifa.


Detective Freder is going to see a lot more armed civilians doing what police are quitting doing. Better stay in your safe white neighborhood if you don't want to get spattered.

Todd said...

Freder Frederson said...

It is not unforeseeable that an innocent, albeit kind of an asshole, person would end up getting shot, or at least have the shit beat out of him, just for exercising his first amendment rights.

9/18/20, 12:20 PM


Welcome to the world of the sane folks currently stuck in Portland having to put up with antifa, not a nice feeling is it?

tim in vermont said...

" likely all caused by these poor inattentive souls inadvertently dragging trailer chains!”

It’s amazing that the same people who claim to have nothing to do with Antifa, on-line, in the media, and Democratic leaders themselves are so quick to act as lawyers for these known violent thugs.


BTW, the “Seige of the White House” has been cancelled due to negative polling impacts on Democrats, it would seem. If they can cancel them with a phone call, then surely since they didn’t do it before the polling numbers went sour, they are responsible.

tim in vermont said...

After what happened in Aurora, with the police refusing to apprehend a violent suspect who was. terrorizing a couple, twice! Eventually the trapped woman had to be rescued by the fire department, and the criminal took a golf club and completely smashed up the apartment. You know. what? If they had put a bullet or two into the guy, nobody would have given them any trouble.

So you have to ask yourself who is it that is causing people to arm up? People who felt no need to arm up when the police were doing their difficult job of dealing with dangerous men.

tim in vermont said...

" holding someone at gunpoint for possessing a book of matches is batshit crazy.”

I don’t think, given the danger that fires pose, that hanging is too good for an arsonist in the West right now.

tim in vermont said...

As long as the media can work 24X7, aided by Facebook and Alphabet, to try to pin the blame on Trump, what is the incentive for Antifa to not carry their well documented campaign of arson to the forests?

Drago said...

Freder: "My point is that if I am driving through Montana (that is where you live right) and I come upon a road block manned by some middle aged guys in camo toting AR-15s, and they try and stop and question me, I would be inclined to tell them to go fuck themselves; where I am going, who I am and what I am doing is none of their goddamned business. To act in this is way my right as an American.

Now we know, because you have posted with quite a bit of detail on this very site, that you have given careful thought to what ammunition and weapons would be most effective in killing Antifa, BLM and Marxist scum. So if I were to tell you to go fuck yourself at an illegal and unauthorized roadblock, I doubt you would take kindly to it, and say "gee you're right, go ahead". It is not unforeseeable that an innocent, albeit kind of an asshole, person would end up getting shot, or at least have the shit beat out of him, just for exercising his first amendment rights."

Freder was unavailable for comment on these guys

Can Of Cheese for Hunter said...

sorry leftists

Your asshole are starting fires. It's that simple. Antifa arson is real.

cannot abide? suck it

Jim at said...

Antifa thug records his starting of two fires in Washington state, posts it on his FB page and we're supposed to believe he's not an Antifa thug starting fires.

Got it.

Paul Snively said...

Dr. Althouse: If you don't understand "these forest fires" to mean "some of these forest fires," then, of course, it's very easy to go big and proclaim that the claim that you're seeing is "completely debunked." It's 100% untrue that 100% of the fires were set by left-wingers. Duh! But no one is saying that. That's exactly what we call a straw man argument.

Ultimately, this is my problem with left-wing thought. It's relentlessly literal and first-order. It's why left-wing thought is blind to its policy prescriptions exacerbating the problems it claims to want to solve. It's why left-wing thought leads to "that's not funny." It's why left-wing thought takes Trump literally, but not seriously. It's why, when left-wing thought achieves political power, the result is the gulags and concentration camps. Because the left-wing thinker's only recourse to reality's failure to conform to their delusion is violence.

RichardJohnson said...

Freder Frederson
Even if the guy was trying to start a fire, it is a leap to declare him a member of Antifa.

Do you also consider it a "leap" to consider Antifa responsible for those fires that were set during those "mostly peaceful" demonstrations within the Portland city limits?

ALP said...

The more important issue is this: Is the background really Klingon warbird inspired, or is it more of a Deep Space Nine inspired design? I can't decide.

Night said...

There was no lightening in Oregon the week before these fires. On crime maps in urban areas freeway ramp areas are crime collectors. Fireworks are a common cause of fires. Association is not causation but as we see in the Nashville mayor some serious dishonesty is being perpetuated on the American public by their elected officials.

eric said...

And now he's come out and apologized therefore solidifying in people's minds the fake news that the fires aren't being started by left wing arsonists.

NYC JournoList said...

Most everyone is discussing the fires, but that misses the bigger picture: Joe is being cancelled.

The article mentions that the staffers of his new host are debating de-platforming him.

The actual comments are just an excuse for stripping him of his audience prior to the election.

Freder Frederson said...


Freder was unavailable for comment on these guys

Actually, I have commented on these types of situations frequently. No one should be armed at a supposedly peaceful protest. I would say the same to these people as the hypothetical I posted above.

You are the ones who fall over yourselves to defend the Kyle Rittenhouse's of the world yet when someone on the right is killed, the leftist scum deserves to be summarily executed and the possibility of self defense is just ridiculous.

Stephen said...

Althouse, this post is just terrible.

What Joe Rogan said was "They've arrested left-wing people for lighting these forest fires, air-quote 'activists'... people have actually been arrested for lighting fires up there."

The Blaze article is the best you can find. A hard right source. And what it shows is a list of 13 arrestees up and down the west coast, only one of whom is identified as a left wing activist, and what he did, according to the report, is set a fire in a grassy median on a highway, and then call it in himself, to the police, who then arrested him for setting it. Whatever this is, it is not setting any forest fire, let alone "these forest fires", that is, the ones that are burning up the west and polluting our air. And though its not strictly relevant, I'll just point out that there is no indication that the number of arrests for setting fires are at an unusual level, given that its fire season and zillions of fires are burning.

So Rogan's statement is factually false, even in its limited focus. And to the extent that its plurality (multiple arrests of activists, multiple forest fires) implies a larger campaign to set these fires, as it clearly does, it has in fact been debunked by law enforcement.

So why all the energy to defend a reckless, divisive, falsehood?

Can Of Cheese for Hunter said...

The Antifa White left are the new protected class.

They can burn it all down and destroy what they want - the hacks in the press will cover for them.

Marc said...

Buncombe, name of a county in North Carolina, U.S. The use of the word originated near the close of the debate on the ‘Missouri Question’ in the 16th congress, when the member from this district rose to speak, while the house was impatiently calling for the ‘Question’. Several members gathered round him, begging him to desist; he persevered, however, for a while, declaring that the people of his district expected it, and that he was bound to make a speech for Buncombe.

tim in vermont said...

Call me crazy, but when a major political party abets, and their operatives, the mainstream media covers for arson, declaring arson “not violence since it is aimed at property” and studiously ignores the use of Molotov cocktails among “mostly peaceful protestors” I am going to blame that party when the arsonists get out of hand, since they probably feel legitimized by things like Kamala Harris soliciting bail funds to spring them when arrested.

Michael K said...

So why all the energy to defend a reckless, divisive, falsehood?

Stephen, you are a "reckless, divisive, falsehood." Go away.

Michael K said...

You are the ones who fall over yourselves to defend the Kyle Rittenhouse's of the world yet when someone on the right is killed, the leftist scum deserves to be summarily executed and the possibility of self defense is just ridiculous.

Yes, especially when they say "There's a Trumper," followed by Bang, bang.

RichardJohnson said...

There is something out of the ordinary going on with forest fires in OregonOregon Department of Forestry _Season Fire Statistics Detail Reports.

What is the ten-year average for forest fires, all causes for Oregon?
For the ten-year average, one cannot directly get a total for the whole state. The ten-year-averages are given by regions.
SOA 21,430.0
NOA 719.3
EOA 19,588.5
Total 41,737.8
So, the ten-year average for forest fires (January-December) for the state of Oregon is 41,737.8 acres.

For "One Calendar Year ago to 9/18/2020," the burn acreage total is 156,077.76
Definitely an outlier of a year. Putting the data into a database, we find that the biggest fires are also quite recent.


Oregon last 365
District Fire Date General Cause Fire Name Acres
Douglas, Central 9/8/2020 Under Invest Archie Creek/ Star Mtn 107,000
Southwest, Medford 9/8/2020 Under Invest S. Obenchain 30,500
Central Oregon, The Dalles 8/27/2020 Lightning White River 7,076
Central Oregon, Sisters 8/16/2020 Lightning GREEN RIDGE 0684 3,117

RichardJohnson said...

Freder
You are the ones who fall over yourselves to defend the Kyle Rittenhouse's of the world yet when someone on the right is killed, the leftist scum deserves to be summarily executed and the possibility of self defense is just ridiculous.

Asked about Trump supporter who was murdered in cold-blood in Portland, leftist woman responds: "Tough luck. Don’t be a f***ing Trump supporter in Portland."



Freder, you may be a member of the The Folk Song Army but many of the people you are defending most decidedly are not.

ken in tx said...

we have seen this sort of official reaction before. All those 'alhoha snackbar' shootings, stabbings, and mass vehicle assaults were immediately followed by official announcements that there was no connection with terrorism, and there was no known motive for the attack.

Estoy_Listo said...

I find it hard to ascribe many urban fires to Antifa/Leftists. I mean, why should they? They already own the cities. I expect that rural sabotage would be the work of those who don't have the support and sympathy of the media and popular culture

Can Of Cheese for Hunter said...

Kyle Rittenhouse was foolish for showing up - but BRAVE.

He showed up to protect property from arson.
Rittenhouse ended up protecting his own life with that gun and he shot two criminal white racist leftists who wanted to kill him. One who survived even said so!

Do you want us to shed tears for two criminal leftwing nazis?

not gonna happen.