July 23, 2020

"Kids are encouraged to express their own opinions. Everyone in the family, including the youngest, has a say."

"By the time Julius turned three, he had already developed adequate language skills to express what’s important to him. After that, it was all about teaching him how to formulate rational solutions. Negotiation-based parenting isn’t for the faint of heart. It can be exhausting, and your patience will be tested. But by allowing our toddler to negotiate, we were teaching him how to set his own boundaries. The notion was that each time Julius questioned our authority, he was simply trying to express what he was and wasn’t comfortable with. It’s a skill that will be useful when he’s older, whether it’s to resist succumbing to peer pressure, to cope when he finds himself in a possibly dangerous situation or to assert himself at work. Of course, there are rules. As parents, it’s important that we explain our position clearly and let him know, for example, why he needs to sleep early: 'So you can get plenty of rest and grow up strong and tall like everyone else.'"

#4 on the list in "I spent 7 years studying Dutch parenting—here are 6 secrets to raising the happiest kids in the world" (CNBC).

#5 is "Kids eat 'hagelslag' (chocolate sprinkles) for breakfast" — and here, you can order hagelslag at Amazon. I don't know how crucial each of the 6 things are in the achievement of happiness, but sprinkling chocolate bits on buttered toast is certainly easy to do and no worse of a bad habit that jam on your toast or a jelly with your peanut butter.

As for the #4 secret... I felt encouraged (retrospectively) by that, since it's what I did (except not with the idea of "negotiation"!).

101 comments:

JAORE said...

Sure, Olaf, you may be a dwarf, but you need to sleep early 'So you can get plenty of rest and grow up strong and tall like everyone else.'

riktuin said...

I am Dutch and have lived in the US for more than 20 years. I still eat “hagelslag” every morning, The local Worldmarket has it in stock as well.
Richard

Wince said...

sprinkling chocolate bits on buttered toast is certainly easy to do and no worse of a bad habit that jam on your toast or a jelly with your peanut butter.

I like bacon on my toast with peanut butter.

Sebastian said...

Hey Althouse, how do you like this sentence?

"Raised on equal parts Catholic guilt and immigrant work ethic, the Dutch approach seemed too easy-going . . ."

Drago said...

The now inevitable imposition of sharia will put a quick end to all of this.

Mr Wibble said...

They have the happiest children, but the adults are all on antidepressants.

Ralph L said...

since it's what I did

As a child or as a parent, or both?

madAsHell said...

Eat cookies, and find your bikini body!!

Gordy said...

I recently read something else about the Dutch. They're the most depressed of the Europeans, and one the ten most depressed peoples in the world.

Gordy said...

I bet they'd be happier as adults if they spent their childhood working in mines and on vegetable farms.

daskol said...

Yeah Gordy, how does one reconcile having the happiest children in the world and the highest rate of depressive disorders among adults in Europe? Adolescence must really suck in Holland.

tim maguire said...

They hardly seem like the secrets of great parenting.

Kids get lots of sleep? Yeah, well, I've never met an American parent who didn't work very hard to set up the best sleep environment they could. But it's out of your hands. Once the basics are in place, good-sleeping kids are largely a matter of luck.

Kids feel less pressure to excel in school? Among my parent set, most of the pressure comes from the kids themselves. I've always focused on teaching my daughter a love of learning without much concern at all about grades or the specifics of what she's learning. It didn't work--neither part.

Chocolate for breakfast? Is there something wrong with a 5 point list? Was she paid by the point?

Bike riding? No endless organized activities? Adult-style discussions? Sure, I'm on board. But they're not big secrets unique to the Dutch.

tim maguire said...

Sebastian said...
Hey Althouse, how do you like this sentence?

"Raised on equal parts Catholic guilt and immigrant work ethic, the Dutch approach seemed too easy-going . . ."


I had to read that sentence twice.

rehajm said...

BECAUSE I SAID SO

Fernandinande said...

"I stumbled upon a 2013 UNICEF report claiming that Dutch children were the happiest kids in the world. The report was a follow-up to one conducted in 2007, in which the Netherlands was first named as a prime example of childhood prosperity."

2013 report, happiness by country (I couldn't find a happiness ranking for children, which doesn't mean it wasn't there) pg 23:

1. Denmark
2. Norway
3. Switzerland
4. Netherlands
5. Sweden
...
152. Rwanda
153. Burundi
154. Central African Republic
155. Benin
156. Togo

Then on page 26 they say that "North America & ANZ" are the happiest places, followed by "Western Europe".

The 2007 report, which is about well-being/poverty, not happiness, the rankings are based on equally weighted values for: (pg 4)

Material well-being
Health and safety
Educational well-being
Family and peer relationships
Behaviours and risks
Subjective well-being

Skeptical Voter said...

Ah citing UNICEF--and it's finding that children in the US and UK are the worst off in the world. Who knows, maybe I should have sent my kids to a Rio de Janeiro favela.

robother said...

One of these things is not lie the other.... Why wouldn't the Dutch boys be able to negotiate their way out of biking to school on cold rainy days? And why Count Chocula only for breakfast? Shouldn't we have some chocolate sprinkles on everything at every meal? Either Dutch negotiation skills have declined significantly since Peter Minuit bought Manhattan, or there are some things off the table for even Dutch parents.

Fernandinande said...

Here, the happiest children are in Romania, Spain and Columbia. They actually asked them about how happy they were, rather than imputing it from their parents' health and income and such.

Narr said...

Sounds like a nice bourgeois nuclear family! Too bad there aren't a few billion more.

Two things struck me on that list. Sleep-- that's critical, and there must be some genetic component (one of my DNA-test 'reference populations' is Dutch) because eight+ hours sounds about right to me. And all-weather biking. I did plenty of that in my younger days (all in town and for practical reasons) and have an urge to start again . . . when the summer ends.

Not that I actually think the "science" behind this stuff--happiness and depression across national populations--is much better than astrology.

Narr
But, chocolate sprinkles on toast? Yuck.

Bob Smith said...

The Dutch, like everyone else in the West will be fine until somebody shows up to steal their stuff and we don’t show up to save them.

mikee said...

Dutch also make great expats. The Dutch manager of my company's workforce in Japan was a delightful man, always positive and encouraging. When I explained to him that Visser, his last name, was the same as that of the evil alien in Animorphs, my daughter's favorite books at the time, he was delighted. When I had a copy shipped to Japan just for him, he was overjoyed, and told me time and time again to work harder, or he would "Animorph" me. So I don't think he read it, but he enjoyed the alien with his name, pictured on the cover.

I recall with pleasure his Dutch-accented Manglish in a late night restaurant, as he ordered food for us all after a long night in the factory, mixing bad Japanese with even worse English, while the waiter tried not to laugh.

Expat(ish) said...

I have numerous friends from the Netherlands, and others from "Dutch" settled areas like South Africa.

They're mostly super-obnoxious relative to whoever they are around, culturally. President Trump would be a find Dutchman.

YMMV, of course, but I'm always wary of picking a single cultural behavior (except maybe sprinkles on toast) and importing it. Especially one from a country of <18M people. Imagine picking something seemingly good from NC (BBQ!) and Michigan (college football) and saying that everyone should have that.

Ok, BBQ maybe.

-XC

Fernandinande said...

Hey Althouse, how do you like this sentence?
"Raised on equal parts Catholic guilt and immigrant work ethic, the Dutch approach seemed too easy-going . . ."


That was the nonsensical sentence that prompted me to check their other assertions.

Chris N said...

Where I'm from, we were raised to hate the Dutch.

Fernandinande said...

This is why I kinda doubt the strength of the correlation between "well-being" (income, health) and actual happiness:

"Study: Most Children Strongly Opposed To Children’s Healthcare"

tim maguire said...

"There are only two things I can't stand in this world: People who are intolerant of other people's cultures, and the Dutch."

I Have Misplaced My Pants said...

Eh that seems like educated class parenting, not Dutch parenting. I’m sure plenty of working class Dutchies don’t have the time and energy to argue about every damn little thing with tiny dictators.

Mike Petrik said...

Oh my. No wonder Dutch women have fewer than two children. Can you imagine a large family operating this way?

MadTownGuy said...

How's that going to work out when these kids are employed, their employers are woke but they're not? Will they feel free to express their opinions? Will they have a say?

Howard said...

What a great disappointment for Drago. He repeatedly surrenders to the islamofundyfaschistas over a long time period, but still no Sharifa law.

Birkel said...

When did "happy" kids become the goal?

Where is self-reliant?
Productive?
Smart?
Capable?
Ambitious?
Focused?
Driven?
Thoughtful?
Both interesting and interested?

Somebody is going to have to show their work if they want people to focus on "happy" as the goal when raising children.

Ice Nine said...

>>"By the time Julius turned three, he had already developed adequate language skills to express what’s important to him.<<

Does she think this is remarkable or something?! That's pretty much entry-level two-year-old. Maybe Dutch kids are happier not expressing their needs until three or so.

Temujin said...

Well...it certainly sounds nice reading the article. Very homey. Just wonder how it'll play on the south side of Chicago. Or west side of Detroit. Or East LA. And on and on and on.

We're a very different country than The Netherlands in so many ways. Up until this century they had been a fairly homogenous society. Now of course, they have a growing Muslim population which will have its own ideas about how to raise their kids and how everyone else should behave in their midst. Good luck with that. It's going swimmingly well in Sweden, Belgium, France, and Germany.

n.n said...

We are conceived as rebels with a cause and without a clue. Parents be wary of our progress.

Gospace said...

We always gave our kids a choice. You can have this- or that. This and that were both things we wanted them to have or wanted them to do. And we would go with their choice. Gave them a feeling of some control in their lives- we didn't pick it out for them- they picked it themselves. No negotiating, no compromise- they got what they chose- from what we then wanted to choose from. Easy peasy.

Our children are doing quite well in life.

Gospace said...

Wince said...
...I like bacon on my toast with peanut butter.


Always a good breakfast towards the end of patrol or a 72 day spec-op. Aside from those times, never had it. Also- at those times- it was with canned bacon. I've never seen canned bacon on the shelf. I understand it is a very popular, albeit expensive, survivalist food supply available through Amazon if you want to use the Althouse portal to try it out.

bagoh20 said...

The happiest times of my life have all been when nobody was parenting me. As an adult, I now have more parents than I ever did as a child. My parents never told me what I could think or say. As a kid, I had more autonomy than I have this year as an adult.

NotWhoIUsedtoBe said...

Funny how with the Dutch it all comes down to height.

daskol said...

Height is indicative of other things, rendering height a euphemism for what they're really telling their kids.

My favorite intra-European prejudice, which I get to hear a lot about having sold out to an Anglo-Dutch conglomerate a couple years ago, is the way cultured nations with storied monarchies and history look down on the Dutch, a corporation more than a country or culture in their view. That must be why I tend to like them or at least working with them as compared to some other Euros. It's always nice as an American or perhaps it's as a New Yorker to deal with the directness and bluntness of the Dutch after trying to read between the lines to figure out what the Brits or French are really saying.

Doug said...

I was one of seven children. Our mom gave us two choices at mealtime - take it or leave it.

Nichevo said...

sprinkling chocolate bits on buttered toast is certainly easy to do and no worse of a bad habit that jam on your toast or a jelly with your peanut butter.



Or Nutella. Nutella is European, therefore socially acceptable, chocolate frosting, about 5x as expensive as Duncan Hines or Betty Crocker, but probably just as good on a buttered toast or bagel.

There is also something from Belgium (?) called Speculoos which is a spread based on, I think, cookie batter. People say Americans eat badly. People should get out more.

Xmas said...

Not on the list but related, but I'm fascinated with baby sign language. You teach infants gestures to express basic needs, and they're able to communicate those needs.

PM said...

"Raised on equal parts Catholic guilt and immigrant work ethic..."
As Rev Mother Mohiam said to Paul Atreides: Get out of my mind!

Churchy LaFemme: said...

Does she think this is remarkable or something?! That's pretty much entry-level two-year-old. Maybe Dutch kids are happier not expressing their needs until three or so.

"Well, everything was fine up until now!"

Eleanor said...

When I was a kid, my mom told me the story of the little Dutch boy who stuck his finger in the dike to stop the flood and saved everyone. My response- "If he was the only one smart enough to figure out how to stop the flood, then he's a idiot who will probably be stuck there with his finger in the dike for the rest of his life. Now if he takes it out, the dike breaks, and lots of people drown, he'll get blamed. Who would be stupid enough to offer to take his place?"

NorthOfTheOneOhOne said...

Expat(ish) said...

Imagine picking something seemingly good from NC (BBQ!)

And start an Eastern style vs. Lexington style war! Are you mad?!

Drago said...

Howard: "What a great disappointment for Drago. He repeatedly surrenders to the islamofundyfaschistas over a long time period, but still no Sharifa law."

At last count, there were about 40 significant no-go zones in the Netherlands, with another 700+ in France, Germany lists about 50+ areas that are labled "law free" (actually, sharia "unofficially" enforced) and in Italy islamists have taken over the Piazza Venezia frequently as a show of force as well as a number of other locations (similar to unlawful actions in France outside Cathedrals and churches).

"Muslim apology over prayers outside Milan Cathedral"
Islamic leaders in Italy are to apologise to the Roman Catholic Church after a pro-Palestinian march ended in Muslims burning Israeli flags and praying in front of Milan Cathedral."


Meanwhile, in the US, Howard and his lefty pals pitched a fit that long-time American soldier killer Soleimani was taken out (oh how they cried and cried about that!) and all major democrat media organs in the US lament the deaths of islamic supremacist terrorist leaders while also praising those terrorist leaders and defending their mass murdering actions.

Also meanwhile, leftists in the US education bureaucracy continually attempt to push islamic teachings into the schools while Biden himself, just days ago, proclaimed his desire to increase islamic teaching in US schools.

"Biden, at Muslim voters summit, says ‘I wish we taught more in our schools about the Islamic faith’"

Yes Howard, it is very clear just who is "surrendering" to the islamic supremacists....and surprise! Its.......you.

And I'm not even going to bother getting into the european leftists actively, explicitly, allowed islamic rape grooming gangs to roam free across Britain and europe for over 2 decades because that is another entire discussion.

Poor Howard. Now that the feds are pushing back against his Howard's Heroes and his Heroes know they will not be protected against the fed forces like the local dems protect them, Howard's Heroes are no longer the "brave brave brave" souls Howard has made them out to be.

See Portland.

Now they are just "brave brave brave brave" Sir Robin's.

tim in vermont said...

My mother was Dutch and my father of Dutch descent. It wasn’t like this. Just saying.

iowan2 said...

Bullshit.

Kids thrive on unconditional love. Certiany. Unrelenting order. Definable, understandable rules. Obeying authority. That's what our two got. Friends told us we took all the fun out of our kids when we expected and got, obedience. All they needed was the look, and they fell into line. (also never laid a hand on them in anger, NEVER) When our son was in Boy Scouts, the leaders were amazed at how much fun he was, what a card, and cutup, balanced by leadership skills beyond his years.
Negotiating with a 4, 8, or 12 year old is madness.

Can Of Cheese for Hunter said...

Mad AS hell 9:15 - lol

stlcdr said...

When I lived in the UK, i thought everything was pretty good and happy.

Then i moved to the US and discovered things weren't as good as they could have been, and live in a much happier place.

James Graham said...

"Funny how with the Dutch it all comes down to height."

One of my fave trivia facts: the Dutch are (on average) the world's tallest people.

tim in vermont said...

It seems like measures of “happiness” always factor in, as givens in making people happy, access to programs Democrats want to push. So they aren’t nearly as informative as one might think.

Narr said...

The Dutch are so tall because their country is below sea level.

Narr
Evolution in action!

Narayanan said...

montessori-and-freedom-of-choice

Maria Montessori [August 31, 1870 – May 6, 1952] understood all these learning differences and created an environment for children where they come in each day and choose what they want to work on.

her work makes more sense and improved more lives than

Margaret Sanger [Sep 14, 1879 - Sep 06, 1966] who killed babies.

GingerBeer said...

The Netherlands' fertility rate is 1.66 births per woman, well below the replacement rate. Negotiating with toddlers will do that to you.

Ralph L said...

That was the nonsensical sentence that prompted me to check their other assertions.

Especially since the Dutch used to be strongly Protestant, at great cost to their country.

JAORE said...

"NC (BBQ!) and Michigan (college football)"

Here in Alabama we gag at your NC BBQ and laugh at your Michigan football.

tim in vermont said...

"No negotiating, no compromise- they got what they chose- from what we then wanted to choose from.”

“Give me the power to nominate, and I will care little for your power to elect.” -- Machiavelli

It sort of works the same way for slogans on NBA shirts.

stevew said...

"As parents, it’s important that we explain our position clearly and let him know, for example, why he needs to sleep early: 'So you can get plenty of rest and grow up strong and tall like everyone else.'"

That is not negotiation, that is assertion of authority. It is the parent's responsibility to make these decisions, children are not mature enough and do not have the experience to do so. Allowing young Lars to "have his say" but then forcing him to go to bed when you want him to is condescending and doesn't teach him anything about debate and negotiation. It does teach him about how his parents are patronizing him when they ask for his opinion.

Rabel said...

The grass is always greener on the other side of the dike.

Freeman Hunt said...

Or you can have a family where everyone has the personality of a trial lawyer in court and everyone will be negotiating all the time without anyone's having chosen it as an approach!

rehajm said...

Here in Alabama we gag at your NC BBQ and laugh at your Michigan football.

Says the guy that thinks mayonnaise is for BBQ...

Todd said...

Rabel said...

The grass is always greener on the other side of the dike.

7/23/20, 12:43 PM


If it is green something is wrong, see a doctor...

Ann Althouse said...

"'since it's what I did' As a child or as a parent, or both?"

It's a list of *parenting* techniques, so to say one of the items something that I *did* is to say that I did it as a parent.

It's harder to know what my parents were up to. I can only guess! I didn't mean to say anything about that. On reflection, I'd say my parents refrained from *encouraging* anything and left us to figure things out for ourselves. We weren't discouraged, but we were not encouraged.

Ann Althouse said...

"I am Dutch and have lived in the US for more than 20 years. I still eat “hagelslag” every morning, The local Worldmarket has it in stock as well."

I can see that Whole Foods has a 365-brand item that comes up if I search for "hagelslag." The item is called "chocolate sprinkles" and the word "hagelslag" appears on the page as something that you can *make* with chocolate sprinkles: "Chocolate sprinkles make almost everything better. Scatter them on your favorite yogurt, on ice cream, on cupcakes, into pancake batter. Or make the dutch treat hagelslag: top a slice of bread with butter, then cover the surface with chocolate sprinkles."

Ann Althouse said...

Speaking of my parents, my mother — who was raised in Ann Arbor, Michigan — used to say "You're Dutch" to us kids. It meant something like that's stupid or you're crazy.

Jim at said...

Children should be seen and not heard was my parents philosophy.

People abandoned that, and now look at what we have in our streets.

Howard said...

Blogger iowan2 said...

Bullshit.

Kids thrive on unconditional love. Certiany. Unrelenting order. Definable, understandable rules. Obeying authority.


We agree on something!

The most miserable kids are the ones with an endless supply of options. They are the ones throwing tantrums in public. If NO! isn't the most common word used, you are doing it wrong.

I lighten it up just a bit for the grandkids, but generally apply the same operating system. And guess what, they are all quite happy living a semi-spartan old-school childhood.

Howard said...

Every shithole in the US is "The Alabama of ..."

Matt said...

Golly. I wonder if the society being 85% homogenous might have anything to do with the happiness of the children.

daskol said...

I don't know if they're happy, but little French kids out and about and in restaurants are the best behaved kids I've ever seen.

Narr said...

I was pretty much spared the two-parent childhood, and as I look back I can't honestly say I missed that much-- I doubt we would have been any happier with hardass dad around, or that my folks could have avoided the splits and divorces that most of my friend's parents would resort to in the 70s.

Both of my parents had traditional notions of discipline; dad was a specialist with the belt. I only smacked my son a few times, with open palm, and only when he earned it.

Especially once my mother went to work fulltime, neither me nor my two younger brothers had any organized activities to try to escape other than sunday school and church, dumped as soon as we became too big for her to manhandle. She made boilerplate exhortations to study hard and get good jobs, of course, and I at least got through high-school and college on my first try. Staying out of VN was an incentive in my case; little bros skipped school so much--or were so high while there--that they were effectively dropouts.

My father and older bro had been into Scouting but my own experience once they were gone was laughable. I saw enough in my one year (one week at Kia Kima) to desert that outfit with a clear conscience and as a virgin.

Narr
Family is as family does


Gahrie said...

Then i moved to the US and discovered things weren't as good as they could have been, and live in a much happier place.

What we need to do is expand the Peace corps, and make participation in either the Peace Corps or the military mandatory. Then send all our teenagers overseas for a couple of years so they can see and realize just how good they have it here.

Ice Nine said...

>used to say "You're Dutch" to us kids. It meant something like that's stupid or you're crazy.<<

In South Africa the English-descended South Africans refer to the Afrikaners as "Rocks" because they are, supposedly, so dumb. The Afrikaners are largely descendants of Dutch settlers. I have spent a lot of time in both South Africa and Holland, and can tell you that that notion is - if it really needs to be said - simply not true. Both are somewhat rustic by nature (Afrikaners more so than Dutch) - it comes from that.

bagoh20 said...

If happy kids are the goal, drugs would be easier.

The goals should be self-reliance, respect, and gratitude. If your kid doesn't have those, happy or sad, you created an asshole.

bagoh20 said...

My parents goals seemed to be having fun, making sure we had what we needed, and insisting we contributed to the household work. This gave us kids a lot of latitude otherwise. They had no more interest in talking things out with us than we did with them. I think this over-involvement in kids lives is selfish. Your kids should not be used as friends who are forced to put up with you.

Michael K said...

Howard said...
What a great disappointment for Drago. He repeatedly surrenders to the islamofundyfaschistas over a long time period, but still no Sharifa law.


Howard is an interesting example of projection. Those surrendering to the Islamofascists are his team. The Democrats bring the Muslim Brotherhood into the White House. Obama fills the Army upper echelons with pansies like General Casey who hopes the massacre at Fort nHood will not affect the Army's "Diversity" commitment. The left hates America and all we stand for but Howard thinks the right is afraid of the Islamists. You know, the ones we flattened like Soleimani.

tim maguire said...

Ann Althouse said...Speaking of my parents, my mother — who was raised in Ann Arbor, Michigan — used to say "You're Dutch" to us kids. It meant something like that's stupid or you're crazy.

I haven't thought about that for a long time--"In Dutch" to mean in trouble.

Donna B. said...

Parental advice based on heritage?

My mother's family were English, with a bit of Scots thrown in occasionally. We thought my father's family was Dutch based on his surname, but through DNA found he's not genetically Dutch. Now, that doesn't mean he wasn't raised with Dutch 'attitudes'.

Chocolate -- we thought chocolate gravy for breakfast and dunking buttered toast in hot chocolate was a Dutch thing. However, the internet would have one believe it's an Appalachian thing... which excludes the Dutch. Wherever did these Appalachian people come up with this?

rcocean said...

That's Greek to me. Put some English on the ball. Scot free. Lets go Dutch. Don't know why the Dutch got stuck with the "Split the bill".

rcocean said...

I was in Amsterdam recently and I've never seem so many Tall people. Literally 50% of the men must have been 6 feet and over.

Joanne Jacobs said...

I decided early on that nagging, whining and sulking would never be effective tactics with me. But I don't mind arguing, if it's really arguing and not disguised nagging. My daughter became quite good at making a case for what she wanted, listening to my point of view and suggesting a compromise without annoying me. (At times, I felt like I was in oral arguments before the Supreme Court, but I knew the final decision was mine.)

She did get a law degree, but ended up as a literary agent. She uses those negotiating skills all the time.

Francisco D said...

rcocean said...I was in Amsterdam recently and I've never seem so many Tall people. Literally 50% of the men must have been 6 feet and over.

It is interesting that among Europeans, the Dutch have few notable basketball player outside of the retired Rik Smits.

The Serbs, Slovenians and Croats (who tend to be tall) made up the majority of White NBA players.

Francisco D said...

rcocean said...I was in Amsterdam recently and I've never seem so many Tall people. Literally 50% of the men must have been 6 feet and over.

It is interesting that among Europeans, the Dutch have few notable basketball player outside of the retired Rik Smits.

The Serbs, Slovenians and Croats (who tend to be tall) made up the majority of White NBA players.

Narr said...

Gahrie, who in their right mind would want a bunch of today's young Americans mucking around their country?

I could go for it if there was some guarantee that many of them would stay gone.

Narr
The Peace Corps is still a thing?

Chris N said...

We were encouraged to round up the Dutch and put 'em into 'Dutch Ovens' so they got the message.

Say it after me, Daan: 'New YORK'

I remember as a boy, hearing my great-great, great grandfather tell tales of collecting EVERY SINGLY COPY of 'Rip Van Winkle' and bringing it to the square.

Everyone stared blankly into the flames. Some with smiles.

Josephbleau said...

The Dutch Reformed Calvinists are God’s elect, just ask them. The Dutch were also the world’s most prolific slave traders in the day. But the Dutch girls are arguably the hottest girls on the planet, so that makes up for a lot.

Narr said...

It always surprises me to see Europeans playing basketball. Then again, I'm surprised that anyone wants to play or watch basketball.

On the subject of Euroweirdness, the always interesting Dutch-born Martin van Creveld has been hot lately. Check out his blog "As I Please."

Narr
And buy his books on Amazon!

Iman said...

When are der kinder allowed to hit the sex shops and drug cafes?

Josephbleau said...

“I remember as a boy, hearing my great-great, great grandfather tell tales of collecting EVERY SINGLY COPY of 'Rip Van Winkle' and bringing it to the square.“

I don’t understand the time scale here, was this some complex incest situation?

Earnest Prole said...

I don’t know about encouraging children to act like little lawyers, but I can vouch for the importance of eating meals together. Every evening for more than twenty years my wife and I sat down for dinner with our five kids pretty much without fail. They’re now all close friends even though they live in different places.

rcocean said...

"The Serbs, Slovenians and Croats (who tend to be tall) made up the majority of White NBA players."

i was intrigued by the same thing. But then Serbs/Croats/Slovines are over-represented in other sports - like Tennis. A surprising number of Baltic State Basketball players.

iowan2 said...

I lighten it up just a bit for the grandkids, but generally apply the same operating system.

Lighten up? Hell, we show up to spoil them, not rear them. If we are there watching them for several days, then its our rules only. Don't care how mom does it. We dont tolerate any fights or fits. We let them do pretty much anything that doesn't burn the house down, or draw blood. We don't referee. But kids are smart, they figure out we will let them eat ice cream before super, if they behave. Or, its bread and water, bed time 7:30, they get to choose.
But will still don't negotiate anything.

Josephbleau said...

"I was intrigued by the same thing. But then Serbs/Croats/Slovenes are over-represented in other sports - like Tennis. A surprising number of Baltic State Basketball players."

Slovenes are also over-represented in the class of current US First Ladies.

Josephbleau said...

Whell, there are upland Dutch and the Lowland Dutch
the Rotterdam Dutch and the Goddam Dutch.

Sing Gloria; Sing Gloria; One Keg of beer for the four of you.

Sing Glory be to God that there are no more of us;
for one of us could drink it all alone; damn beer.

Oh what is that smell on the evening breeze? Its the God Damn Dutch
eating Limburg Cheese;

sing Gloria sing....

The English live in Castles and the French live in huts;
but the God Damn Dutch live in garbage trucks;

For I am a member of the Souse Family and the Souse Family is the best Family so;

sing Gloria sing....

Leora said...

I remember one of my friends' parents commenting that my parents negotiated with me and my brother. She was not approving. She told me that my mother discussed giving up the bottle and using a glass with me for at least 2 years.

Kassaar said...

“Raised on equal parts Catholic guilt and immigrant work ethic, the Dutch ...”

That should be Calvinist guilt, and Protestant work ethic. Although the southernmost territories (they didn’t have province status), Noord-Brabant and Limburg, were solidly Catholic, the Dutch Reformed Church and some smaller Calvinist denominations were dominant during the era of the Republic (~1580-1795) and the 19th century. The most important group of immigrants, who contributed considerably to Holland’s wealth and culture in the 17th century, were refugees from the Southern Netherlands (now Belgium), mostly from Antwerp, who fled after the Spanish recaptured the southern part of the Republic. They were Calvinists too.

The Dutch share of the transatlantic slave trade through the ages was about 550,000 , or ~5% of the total number of people traded.

Chris N said...

‘Death is but a doorway, Time is but a window, I’ll be back.’

-Vigo

*Pretty sure he traded a lot with the Dutch.

SensibleCitizen said...

When they were being disciplined, I always thought it important to hear my kids out -- everyone wants to be heard -- and occasionally (but not often) I learned something that changed my point of view.

However, "negotiate?" Never.

ken in tx said...

In the late 70s, Philippine TV advertised chocolate flavored margarine--maybe still do. I wondered where that idea came from, maybe Dutch Indonesia.
Growing up in Alabama, I was well aware that Alabama was considered a shithole by others, and I believed it was. That is until I visited rural Ohio, Indiana, and Illinois. And places like Alpena, Michigan and Volk Field Wisconsin; places where half the roads were unpaved because half the year they were covered in ice and snow anyway. I also learned that there more rednecks in the mid-west than Alabama has room for.