June 1, 2020
"The Times has reconstructed the death of George Floyd on May 25. Security footage, witness videos and official documents show how a series of actions by officers turned fatal."
Also: "Asphyxia Caused Floyd’s Death, Private Autopsy Finds" (NYT): "George Floyd died not just because of the knee lodged at his neck by a Minneapolis Police officer, but also because of the other officers who helped hold him down, a private autopsy found. Dr. Allecia M. Wilson of the University of Michigan and Dr. Michael Baden, a former New York City medical examiner, were hired by Mr. Floyd’s family to help determine his cause of death."
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88 comments:
George Floyd's death was a tragedy and we should NEVER tolerate police brutality. But remember US citizens call 911 requesting help from the police 240 million times annually and police actually interact with citizens 60 million times each year. Thus, police, often rolling hot, interact with citizens 60 million times per year. And after rolling up hot those police shoot 1,000 people, killing them, annually. 400 people die in police custody annually. So for every 60 MILLION times citizens interact with police 1,400 people die. Divide 1,400 by 60,000,000 and you get .000023. That risk is low when compared to the 10K + young black men who die every year at the hands of other young black men. So can we hold TWO thoughts in our heads at once? Police brutality is terrible and ought not be tolerated. But the VAST number of interactions between police and citizens are NOT deadly. Let's think critically and clearly people, And how about we don't burn down the city because of the bad acts of a few bad cops.
What a shocker! The doctor hired by Ben Crump had a different finding that the county's medical examiner.
The Times is also infamous for its reconstructions of history.
The official autopsy found no such thing. I'd hate to have to bring that case to court. "Reasonable doubt" is sort of defined by this situation.
Soon available as a box set.
Found what they were told to find. No surprise there.
Anyone hear Rush today? Had a bunch of black spox on. Turns out they have a different definition of "white supremacy."
Basically just that whites always come out on top because reasons. Not a Nazi or KKK type group.
Though that works for the media.
I am not saying the police did not cause his death. I am not saying the police officers involved should not go to jail. They should.
I don't believe the autopsy.
People who can't breath can't talk.
If you say "I can't breath" out loud you are lying. He was clearly heard saying things.
I have applied pressure to my torso in diaphragm training. I have very big people stand on my chest/stomach holding extra weight while I do flutter kicks and other ab exercises. I have pushed this to the point I cannot talk. You have to tap out as such.
Floyd was not a small person and it would take more than one of these cops applying their full weight to his chest to keep him from breathing. You diaphragm does get tired but a cop with his knee on your chest is not enough weight for someone like Floyd.
always come out on top because reasons. Not a Nazi or KKK type group.
Jew privilege. The names change, the methods, motives, and character do not.
These don't seem like useful comments for the occasion.
There was a similar reconstruction, although lead by the NY Daily and other JournoListic outfits, of Martin beating Zimmerman... or rather Zimmerman killing Martin. So, is the NYT reusing, recycling witch hunts ("protests") and warlock judgments (e.g. trial by press) of social justice past?
Dave Begley said...
What a shocker! The doctor hired by Ben Crump had a different finding that the county's medical examiner.
You get what you pay for. Crump was the Trayvon Martin family lawyer.
“The official autopsy found no such thing. I'd hate to have to bring that case to court. "Reasonable doubt" is sort of defined by this situation.”
On the one hand, Reasonable Doubt is only relevant in criminal cases, not civil cases (e,g. The OJ Simpson case), and Crump’s involvement means that they are looking at a civil suit against the city. And Baden is a hired gun. Pops up whenever a high profile case needs a high profile pathologist.
eadering said...
These don't seem like useful comments for the occasion.
Inga's are more in your line.
If you say "I can't breath" out loud you are lying.
Maybe there's a clue to be found when you lose consciousness after saying it.
largely so, ben crump got what he paid for,
Dr. Allecia M. Wilson of the University of Michigan and Dr. Michael Baden, a former New York City medical examiner, were hired [paid] by Mr. Floyd’s family to help determine his cause of death.
bold added
(reposted with ** additional comments)
I heard a retired NYC policeman on Boston's Howie Carr talk show today claim that the procedure used to subdue Floyd was a technique allowed by the Minneapolis police.
Anyone know if this is true?
**The video briefly shows the Mpls police regulation ("Conscious Neck Restraint") that allows the procedure when used on a suspect actively resisting arrest, and when other methods have failed. Judging from the video, Floyd WAS actively resisting arrest when he refused to go all the way into the police care.
**When Chauvin taunts Floyd about getting back in the car, the latter says he will---but Chauvin and the other cops do not release their pressure on his back, legs and neck. So HOW could he have been able to comply with their order? Right there, the officers have made a fateful--and fatal-- error.
Has anyone released the tox reports?
Not Sure said...
If you say "I can't breath" out loud you are lying.
Maybe there's a clue to be found when you lose consciousness after saying it.
Yes breathing in is much harder than breathing out when there is pressure on your chest. If it is weight on the chest keeping you from breathing then yes you get one utterance before you can no longer speak.
But the knee on the neck would stop you from speaking if it would stop you from breathing. I think it would probably break your neck before it stopped you from breathing at that angle.
But from my experience unless Floyd had a defective rib cage there wasn't enough weight to keep him from breathing. He is 6'6" and solid looking. I have had well over 300 pounds on my chest for extended periods of time Those cops are pudgy looking but their partial weight just wouldn't be enough.
He probably died from something other than asphyxiation. But something doesn't make sense in all of this.
I still think the police officers should go to jail.
But we are not getting all of the information here.
Once they cuffed the suspect they should have shoved him into the car. It's bad enough that one rogue cop turned criminal killed Floyd. What's worse is the other cops who saw what was happening stood by and didn't stop Chauvin. They all should be facing charges.
Their autopsy discovers what they're paid to discover. It's more like climate science than physics.
Achilles said...
I am not saying the police did not cause his death. I am not saying the police officers involved should not go to jail. They should.
I don't believe the autopsy.
People who can't breath can't talk.
If you say "I can't breath" out loud you are lying. He was clearly heard saying things.
******************
Your not-so-humble brag about your fabulous abs is duly noted.
HOWEVER, here's a DOJ doc posted by someone just yesterday about why the technique should not be used.
https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/posasph.pdf
Predisposing Factors to Positional Asphyxia
Certain factors may render some individuals more susceptible to positional asphyxia following a violent struggle, particularly when prone in a face-down
position:
■ Obesity.
■ Alcohol and high drug use.
■ An enlarged heart (renders an individual more susceptible to a cardiac arrhythmia under conditions of low blood oxygen and stress).
The risk of positional asphyxia is compounded when an individual with predisposing factors becomes involved in a violent struggle with an officer or officers, particularly when physical restraint includes use of behind-the-back handcuffing combined with placing the
subject in a stomach-down position
Let me propose that no one really cares about Floyd. The demonstrations turn to looting because "free stuff", and breaking windows and burning building is a hoot. Antifa is in it because it provides meaning to their useless lives. Floyd? He's dead, but dozens of black people kill each other every week, why would someone in Oakland care?
I think this explanation works better than the alternatives.
Maybe there's a clue to be found when you lose consciousness after saying it.
An expert ! Thank you.
in other travesties of justice, judge sullivan is intent on drowning general flynn, to prove he's not a warlock,
These don't seem like politically correct comments for the occasion.
@readering, FIFY
Readering said...
These don't seem like useful comments for the occasion.
6/1/20, 4:37 PM
And we should always go with what is "useful" (to the left), rather than what is true.
Chauvin looks nonchalant and negligent. I suppose he thought that Floyd was malingering. It was more an error in judgment than premeditated murder, but that's not the kind of error that a decent or conscientious cop would make. Chauvin is screwed. He'll get heavy prison time, probably longer than the Minneapolis cop who shot the yoga teacher.
"I am not saying the police did not cause his death."
It would be a bit premature. But I suspect it will prove to be the case.
"Maybe there's a clue to be found when you lose consciousness after saying it."
Yes indeed. It means your heart isn't working right. Someone should call an ambulance for you. As, apparently, someone did for George Floyd. It will be interesting to find out who made that call, and when.
With muscles like that at 46, I'll bet it was roid rage.
>>James L. Salmon said...
...So for every 60 MILLION times citizens interact with police 1,400 people die. Divide 1,400 by 60,000,000 and you get .000023. That risk is low when compared to the 10K + young black men who die every year at the hands of other young black men. So can we hold TWO thoughts in our heads at once? Police brutality is terrible and ought not be tolerated. But the VAST number of interactions between police and citizens are NOT deadly. Let's think critically and clearly people<<
Great idea. And critical thinking tells us that all those stats you posted are utterly irrelevant to the circumstances in and cause of George Floyd's death at the hands of those four cops.
horrible way to die.
I don't stand in solidarity with criminals =- no matter their skin color - but NO ONE should have a police knee on the neck like that. ... They killed him. (my opinion)
It was murder as far as I can tell.
that said, The officer deserves a fair trial and due process.
The riots and the leftwing Antifa mobs are a separate cancer.
The video appears to be a fair and accurate account.
After a struggle, the other cops finally had Floyd in the police car, and then Chauvin shows up and pulls him out for no reason, causing the whole incident to go bad. Then Chauvin refuses to roll Floyd over when the other officers ask to. Without Chauvin there Floyd lives, and all this disaster never occurs. What a fucking asshole, and he ruins the reputation and good will of thousands of other cops around the nation. The little jerk-off never should have been a cop on the day this happened. One small man sure can do a lot of damage.
I still think the police officers should go to jail.
But we are not getting all of the information here.
********
That's why we have criminal trials.
He looks very strong, and probably hard to hold down if he's fighting, which he apparently decides to do even after surrendering from time to time. He's a lot stronger than the cops. Might take a lot of cops on him.
And the autopsy found he wasn't strangled.
Perhaps the knee force was not done with full weight, but just enough to hold him down. Probably the cop has done it before and it always worked.
That might be why the cop standing around didn't intervene. It's just normal procedure.
The matter can only be resolved by paying higher and higher fees for competing autopsies, now that autopsies are even less reliable than selectivly chosen videos.
Did he really say I can't "breath"?
Readering: "These don't seem like useful comments for the occasion."
Yeah. A lefty wrote that. Just today.
Too funny.
>>Achilles said...
People who can't breath can't talk.
If you say "I can't breath" out loud you are lying. He was clearly heard saying things.<<
Well, I'm sure it didn't occur to George to say, "Officer, I am experiencing increasingly severe difficulty maintaining my normal respiratory excursions for the purpose of ventilating my lungs with oxygen in order to stay alive." Nor that he felt that degree of precision might be necessary to convey the idea to the cop. Nor that he had the tidal volume necessary to do so, even before he took his last breaths.
People in respiratory distress, but still actually breathing, say, "I can't breathe." Every single time. As I have heard those words in breathing respiratory distress patients a few thousand times, you can trust me on this. Some of them get better with treatment, some of them get worse. And some of them die, all the while, down to their last breath, gasping and whispering the words, "I can't breathe."
If I were cop, and I was trying to arrest the man in that picture, but me and three other cops couldn't wrestle him into the cruiser, but we managed to get him down and hand-cuffed, and now he was saying he couldn't breathe, I would have someone call an ambulance, and then we would sit on the big asshole 'til they got there. What would you do? Let him get up and wander around? I think I might also tell him to "Relax".
Cops are ignorant, lower IQ, bully pussies. IOW, your typical Trump voter.
Speaking of which, when are you people going to join in the civil war?? You have kept threatening it since Trump was elected and now's your chance. Crickets. I guess Antifa is too badass intimidating even though you each have a dozen ARs and a gazillion rounds. Didn't Trump call out the MAGA Army the other day? Bunions acting up... Heartbreak of psoriasis... Prolapsed anal warts?
To the Moon, Alice.
I don't understand why they have him in and out of the car.
Two terrible things to see here: when they tell him to get up, but Chauvin (is that the neck cop) doesn't get off his neck. How in the world can you get up if someone is kneeling on your neck? I hate it when cops do stuff like that to people.
The look on Chauvin's face when people are telling him he is unconscious. He doesn't care. He eyes are hard and wild. There's no reason to be on his neck anymore, yet Chavin stays.
Is J Alexander Keung black?
Looks like he was cuffed and put in the cop car then tried to escape out the opposite side. WTF.
chinese fentanyl and meth, which showed up in autopsy, may have contributed
if a man starts having a heart attack mid arrest, would officers legitimately confuse this for resistance needing greater force? if so, better training at minimum.
the fact that the floyd and chauvin weren't strangers complicates things further.
further, left authorities these days will twist to give the angry left mob their due.
You get the autopsy you pay for,
"The Times has reconstructed the death of George Floyd on May 25. Security footage, witness videos and official documents show how a series of actions by officers turned fatal."
They left out the part where the guy resisted.
"Private Autopsy"? So, how does *that* work. Doesn't the Medical Examiner do the FIRST autospy and determine the cause of death by cutting up the body and examining it? So, how does the 2nd Doctor do an autopsy and come to a different conclusion?
Or is this one of those "experts" who can be bought when $millions$ are at stake?
The M/E said his preliminary conclusion was that Floyd did NOT die of asphyxiation. So how did the private Doctor reach the opposite conclusion?
Still would like some more facts, ideally from someone trustworthy, as if that were even a thing anymore.
My understanding is that the "choke" applied by the knee was not of the windpipe but of blood vessels to the brain. Thus the airway would be unobstructed for speech, if any tidal breath remained, but the subject nonetheless might complain of asphyxia.
Not being a doctor, Mr Floyd may not have known how to express himself adequately, and, not being a doctor, Officer Chauvin might not have understood him if he did.
Doc K, or any doctor here, can you confirm whether the autopsies conflict in any matters of fact, or offer alternative explanations of the same facts, or just say things differently?
Blogger narciso said...
in other travesties of justice, judge sullivan is intent on drowning general flynn, to prove he's not a warlock,
Yeah, narciso? I've been thinking what a great time now is for any news to be buried, and have been wondering where the Flynn case was at. What news is there?
It also seems like they don't always use the best camera angle they have. The car is in the way when they pull George through the cop car and out on the street. A move that makes no sense.
(The I can't breathe thing doesn't hit me as hard, because it starts saying really early, right? when he's first being handcuffed. And I think everyone being taken in says that now. The autopsies read as if it wasn't airflow, but blood flow that was diminished. And that's what it looks like and sounds like, since he was talking)
Large numbers of leftists are uninterested in the truth. Has the OFFICIAL full autopsy been performed and the official report released?
I don't think so. Remember Cigarette Guy in NYC? The Leftists are still saying he was STRANGLED TO DEATH when he died of heart attack 30 minutes after arrest due to asthma and a bad heart. The Police used an illegal choke hold that led to his death. But if he'd been healthy, he would've lived. The choke hold set off a chain reaction that killed him. But that's NOT being strangled to death.
Blogger Ralph L said...
With muscles like that at 46, I'll bet it was roid rage.
This was my first thought. HGH and other anabolic steroids also can cause the heart to be enlarged, another risk factor.
I'm glad I'm not a cop.
I'll just add to the "Millions get arrested every year" statistic. Most of the people who are killed resisting arrest are WHITE. IRC, about 1/3 are black. Given their prominence in the crime stats, it doesn't look like blacks are disproportionately killed while resisting the arrest and the number is relatively small (less than 400) when you consider that 7,500 AA are murdered every year by their fellow blacks.
Why these racial killing are always "rocking the nation" we the NYT/WaPo etc. leading the charge and ginning up racial division is beyond me. First, it was Trayvon Martin, then it was Mr. "Hands Up Don't SHoot" of Ferguson, then it was NYC Cigarette Guy, and who can forget Freddie Gray of Baltimore who was killed by policemen in the city with a Black Mayor, a Black Police chief, a black city council, and a black Cop in charge of the whole group that arrested him.
All these incidents seem Manufactured, on produced on schedule by the MSM, while other equally horrific incidents that don't fit "The Narrative" are put on the back page or buried are not reported at all.
Paid autopsy finds what they were paid to find.
Smart lawyer knows that will bring higher settlement.
Just saw an interview with Ben Crump. The interview couldn't get his guest to concentrate on any questions as Crump kept singing,
Zip-a-dee-doo-dah, zip-a-dee-ay
My, oh, my, what a wonderful day
Plenty of money headin' my way
Zip-a-dee-doo-dah, zip-a-dee-ay!
Mister Benjamin's on my shoulder
It's the truth, it's "actch'll"
Everything is "satisfactch'll"
Zip-a-dee-doo-dah, zip-a-dee-ay
Wonderful feeling, wonderful day!
Yes, sir
Pretty simple. Cops probably have done same thing many times without prisoner dying. This guy died during a routine police restraint. Bad luck for everyone involved.
Family already has over six million in gofund me. After lawsuit, probably twenty more. Must create mixed emotions becoming millionaires because your loved one is dead. Think the euphoria balances with sadness and guilt?
Bruce Hayden said...
"On the one hand, Reasonable Doubt is only relevant in criminal cases, not civil cases . . . "
Entirely true. But if they don't get a murder conviction against him, Riots Part Two are going to be worse than One.
They started with a conclusion
and found a fact set
Just like a lawyer
Times is a domestic terror organization which justifies riots.
This feltercarb
https://mobile.twitter.com/amarimow/status/1267541821804228608
Two Federal policeman (not FBI) were assassinated in Oakland during the riots. Do they get a Gofundme page and $Millions?
BTW, can people stop making pompous Pronouncements about how "Outraged" they are about the death of George Floyd, or how "The cops who did this should go to jail". Who exactly is in FAVOR of the police killing suspects? Who Does NOT think the policeman who kneed on his neck should go to jail (based on what we know NOW)?
Can we be spared the obvious - Captain Obvious?
"rcocean said...
"'Private Autopsy'? So, how does *that* work."
It's pretty standard. The body is still there. The first autopsy is only slightly destructive, in obvious ways, which the second examiner knows to ignore.
"Or is this one of those 'experts' who can be bought when $millions$ are at stake?"
Yes. Yes, it is. But sometimes the official medical examiner is also biased.
Two Federal policeman (not FBI) were assassinated in Oakland during the riots
#BabyLivesMatter
Paid autopsy finds what they were paid to find.
It's a data point. Now, we need to stop the protests, the riots, the witch hunts, and warlock judgments, too, curb diversity and the old fashioned ways of progressive times past, and follow due process.
"Perhaps the knee force was not done with full weight, but just enough to hold him down. Probably the cop has done it before and it always worked."
To me, it's clear from the video that the officer has light weight on the neck. Look at his body mechanics. If that knee was full on his neck, he wouldn't have lasted 20 seconds, much less 8 minutes.
But, it's also clear the Chauvin is a shit cop and he was sloppy and callous. So sucks to be him.
Looking for to the comment that he didn't actually stop breathing.
Ok, so I watched the NYTimes report and that's the second time I've seen that video. I know the Times has cut it for dramatic effect, but Chauvin is either a moron or sadistic.
How can you still have a knee in the neck when the guy is completely passed out? That's fucking ridiculous.
Scott Adams says the death is consistent with fentenyl overdose - you don't wake up when your breathing stops to fix it and just die.
short podcast
Doc K, or any doctor here, can you confirm whether the autopsies conflict in any matters of fact, or offer alternative explanations of the same facts, or just say things differently?
I would have to look at both reports but I have experience with lying coroners. In my book.
Cops are ignorant, lower IQ, bully pussies. IOW, your typical Trump voter.
It is nice to see assholes self identify.
I assume you would never call one. Prick.
Who Does NOT think the policeman who kneed on his neck should go to jail (based on what we know NOW)?
Me.
If the kneeling on the neck technique was taught to Chauvin by department instructors and if they described it as being a SAFE way to subdue a large suspect who is strong and strongly resisting, then the problem is not with the officer but with his training.
Cops are ignorant, lower IQ, bully pussies.
Assuming that what you say is true, do you suppose what is going on now is going raise the quality of police officer candidates?
To reiterate my view, what I saw on Chauvin's face in plain view of a mixed crowd was not the angry or secretive deprivations of a racist, but the calm reassurance of a bureaucrat convinced of his prerogative to avoid any risk to himself in exchange for his vaunted "public service".
One key factor is the same in the instances of brutality against individual people and in police incompetence in quelling riots: the absolute priority given to keeping officers safe.
Cops are ignorant... yadda, yadda, yadda
Tough talk and puerile bloviations from the safely anonymous.
Dr Baden is well respected and I see no reason to doubt him.
Beside that, I believe common sense indicates the officers caused the death based on the video.
A defense lawyer will have quite a time developing a defense.
The senseless of this single death is tragic.
The rioting and loss of life is merely a statistic.
Can we be spared the obvious - Captain Obvious?
Obviously not. Why the existence of the blogging malebolge if not to display how mighty, wise, and unassailably righteous are its denizens?
***depravations
Contra me above:
An autopsy and toxicology screen that shows massive past (enlarged heart) and/or current (heart problems) would make for quite a good defense angle. That would mean the deceased was largely responsible for increasing his own danger. And some jurors might be influenced.
If there is a trial it shouldn't be in Minneapolis. But I am uncertain if changing the venue will help the cop.
George Floyd
Height: 6' 6"
> Under “other significant conditions”, it said, Floyd suffered from heart disease and hypertension, and listed fentanyl intoxication and recent methamphetamine use.
Fentanyl is a powerful synthetic opioid analgesic that is similar to morphine but is 50 to 100 times more potent.
Serious side effects and their symptoms can include the following:
Serious breathing problems. Symptoms can include:
very shallow breathing (little chest movement with breathing)
fainting, dizziness, or confusion
Decreased breathing rate warning. Fentanyl can make you breathe more slowly. This can lead to breathing failure and possibly death.
Methamphetamine is a powerful, highly addictive stimulant that affects the central nervous system.
Taking even small amounts of methamphetamine can result in many of the same health effects as those of other stimulants, such as cocaine or amphetamines. These include:
* increased wakefulness and physical activity
* decreased appetite
* faster breathing
* rapid and/or irregular heartbeat
* increased blood pressure and body temperature
Long-term methamphetamine use has many other negative consequences, including:
* confusion
* memory loss
* sleeping problems
* violent behavior
* paranoia—extreme and unreasonable distrust of others
* hallucinations—sensations and images that seem real though they aren't
ITS ANOTHER MICHAEL BROWN!
Why are people ignoring "recent methamphetamine use" ?
Howard shows up to prove just how beta a beta can be.
Howard would never hurt you. He wants antifa to hurt you.
In other news three bakers in Ckeveland defended their store with pistols and shotguns. Because they so marked their doorway the angel of antifa passed them by.
A couple of things about the video stuck out for me.
First, after the shop owners confronted Floyd over the counterfeit money, he stayed parked. I think a normal response would be to drive away.
When the cops had Floyd out of the car, he didn't look right, he looked dazed and out of it, like he was drunk, had some kind of medical condition or was on drugs.
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