Said Jordan Peterson (in 2017) — from a longer passage transcribed by my son John, here, with video.
June 27, 2020
"It is not safe to speak, but it is even less safe not to speak. … You'll just be a miserable worm at the end of about 20 years of that."
"No self respect, no power, no ability to voice your opinions, nothing left but resentment, because everyone's against you, because of course you've never stood up for yourself.… Don't be thinking you're alone. It's just that people … are afraid to talk or they don't know what to say.… The enemy is a cloud. They're a cloud of gnats. They're only courageous in groups. They're only courageous in mobs. If you stand your ground and don't apologize and articulate things properly, they'll disperse around you like they're not even there. So most of it's illusion."
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78 comments:
Free speech has always been a danger to cults. The Church of the Holy Left, is a cult.
He is correct. It IS an illusion. And it has power only if we allow it to have that power. Like our Government, the draw their power from the consent of the people. And like our Government, the people have both the right, and the means, to remove their power.
Stand up to this or live under it. That goes for all- conservatives and liberals both. All of you are suspect under these new rules. Do not play. Do not play along.
Or people can burn down the other sides stuff, too, until they cry uncle.
They will go after their colleges and universities. Their social media server farms. Their Amazon warehouses.
Educated people used to understand where this all leads to.
I'm sure there are a lot of blacks who think this "revolution" is bullshit and runs counter to their long-term interests. But they better not say anything.
Prostrate yourself before the mob, pay the protection racket, purchase carbon indulgences, throw a baby on the barbie for good measure, then be good and hold your breath.
I completely agree. It's even better to speak calmly to the mob while covering them with a 12-gauge Saiga with a 20-shell drum.
Sounds exactly like the Althouse deplorables.
The Church of the Holy Left, is a cult
Twilight faith... fringe and Pro-Choice, selective, opportunistic religion. Every Progressive sect is on board, liberals (i.e. divergent -- e.g. generational -- ideologues) are distributed, and the moderates sat on the wall, divided, and had a great fall.
It’s an illusion that it’s not safe to speak. That’s not going to help him sell books and tickets to people who want to be told that they’re victims.
Anywho, I wonder if it’s possible to feel safe to speak and still be a miserable worm. Like these Karens that keep getting caught of video. They seem comfortable speaking, and they seem miserable.
Maybe sometimes not speaking = not worm.
I dunno.
I, for one, try to live my life so as to never be granted a visa to enter mainland China, while the Chinese Communist Party remains in power there.
I think I might add a codicil to that guidance, that the woke mob will get none of my attention, my money, my tolerance, my time.
""It is not safe to speak, but it is even less safe not to speak."
Only if I get a baseball bat (excuse me, potential weapon) too.
"If you stand your ground and don't apologize and articulate things properly, they'll disperse around you like they're not even there. So most of it's illusion."
Tell that to Derbyshire, Hsu and Watson, not to mention the formerly anonymous "Karens" who've been fired and internationally ostracized for not doing much of anything.
As in so much else in my lifetime, the “moderate” liberals were expecting the conservatives to step in and save them from the consequences of their own excess. Conservatives used to do that because, as the adults, they felt it was their responsibility to keep the house in order.
But the Left has trashed the place too often and conservatives no longer have the slightest interest in stopping the rabid Progs from preying on the aforesaid moderates, mainly because there’s nothing remotely moderate about them anymore. Have at it, guys!
You can be killed by what you live by.
If your identity is tied up in a being a certain sort of person, you can be destroyed if the other people of your sort reject you.
There is an old fashioned word that describes a person who once had money, but has lost all of their money: ruined. A ruined person could no longer live off of their wealth, and had to go to work for wages. Sometimes this prospect was so shameful or impossible to contemplate, the ruined person would kill himself.
I never had any money. I've always been ruined (another usage was "broke," short for "broken man").
I've never been uncanceled, I can't be canceled.
Blogger Temujin said...
He is correct. It IS an illusion. And it has power only if we allow it to have that power. Like our Government, the draw their power from the consent of the people. And like our Government, the people have both the right, and the means, to remove their power.
Another way to say this is that there is no social contract between the #BLM rioters and the American people.
There does seem to be a social contract between the #BLM rioters and certain Democrat politicians and #BLM and a good part of the American media.
As someone who was just threatened to be "outed" to my employer (by someone who I thought was my friend) because I support Trump and must therefore be a white supremacist, its enough to take your breath away like a sledgehammer... I can't afford to lose my job right now, and I live in fear every day that the wrong person is going to find out my politics and fire me...
This is the America we live in today... its all rage filled emotion, and no amount of reason or logic has any impact... there are already efforts to start forcing purity tests within companies... "Silence is Violence"... and if you disagree with or even don't say anything at all, you're livelihood is on the line...
I was going to post the tweet where the young BLM lady was going psycho on the two old men, but decided to scroll down to see if Althouse had already blogged about it. She had. Those men stood their ground in the face of incoherent insanity, and did so without losing their cool. I wish I could be that cool-tempered.
Except its not an illusion. Speak your mind or put your affiliations on your resume, and you will be ostracized, you will be pushed out, your job applications will be thrown in the trash.
You proud of what the country has become -- strike that, what it HAS BEEN for quite some time? You proud of what you have helped to create?
"Oh, pooh - you're just a deck of cards!"
- Alice in Wonderland.
This also explains why the right's hyperventalating is so silly.
Lately I have found comfort in the ancient wisdom--
You are a fluke of the Universe; you have no right to be here . . .
Narr
Very topical, don't you think?
"If you stand your ground and don't apologize and articulate things properly, they'll disperse around you like they're not even there."
Yeah, sure they will. Maybe if you've got a gun on your hip.
I’m currently struggling to resist screaming at a certain pastor during online sessions:
“They aren’t protests, you fucking liar! It’s rioting and looting and arson!”
Hard to say how this would play out over Zoom.
About remaining silent or speaking out, as a practical matter, pressure to conform is often overwhelming to an individual.
"He who imagines commendation and disgrace not to be strong motives to men, to accommodate themselves to the opinions and rules of those with whom they converse, seems little skilled in the nature or history of mankind . . . no man escapes the punishment of their censure and dislike," explained John Locke. "Nor is there one of ten thousand, who is stiff and insensible enough to bear up under the constant dislike and condemnation of his own club.
"He must be of a strange and unusual constitution, who can content himself to live in constant disgrace and disrepute with his own particular society. Solitude many men have sought, and been reconciled to: but nobody, that has the least thought or sense of a man about him, can live in society under the constant dislike and ill opinion of his familiars, and those he converses with. This is a burden too heavy for human sufferance: and he must be made up of irreconcilable contradictions, who can take pleasure in company, and yet be insensible of contempt and disgrace from his companions." An Essay Concerning Human Understanding.
Howard said...
Sounds exactly like the Althouse deplorables.
Thank you. I never would have expected such high praise from you.
Am I free to say that moderation--for all its real flaws--seems to be working pretty well?
I don't like the delays any more than most posters, but I do like threads that don't routinely (and quickly) run into the 400s-- 20% Feudists, 20% trolls, 20% woowoo on a good day.
Those that can't or won't adapt have dropped out--too bad, there were some valuable posters among them.
Narr
Adapt or die
Peterson optimistically underestimated the problem.
As someone who was just threatened to be "outed" to my employer
I teach History and Government. I seriously expect to be suspended at some point this coming school year. The office was already getting complaints from parents and students last year, and this summer the admin summarily announced we are changing our mascot because the old was problematic. (we were the Rebels like UNLV)
I'm not PC, and I won't lie to my kids. It's scary when telling the truth isn't an adequate defense.
"It is not safe to speak, but it is even less safe not to speak. … You'll just be a miserable worm at the end of about 20 years of that."
That's the strategy.
Scientific research shows worms feel pain.
Those inflicting it expect you'll want to avoid it too.
Howard said...
Sounds exactly like the Althouse deplorables.
Howard prefers to live on his knees.
The public confessions of iniquity disperse ibto the cloud of cowardly SJW gnats. No wonder the today's graduates of universities are screwing up everything they touch. The need validation from external sources that they believe to be completely corrupt.
...and now a bunch of anonymous commenters will talk about it.
If you stand your ground and don't apologize and articulate things properly,
----------==========
his sequence throws me off
does it not communicate clearer >>> If you don't apologize (but) and stand your ground and articulate things properly,
the Left has trashed the place too often and conservatives no longer have the slightest interest in stopping the rabid Progs
Not true. Most people will never lead, but there are leaders, in the counter-protests, and other times, places, and ways. There is reason for cautious optimism.
The new resistance.
I always try to please the mob.
Jordan Peterson says that about one in ten white people (more like 12%) are too dumb (IQ < 83) to live constructive lives in modern society, and that cut-off would apply to 44% of black people.
"Silence is Violence" Which means, "there are no innocent bystanders: if you're not with us you're our enemy. And we will vanquish you, by any means necessary."
Somehow it goes beyond noting that forced speech is at least as much the enemy of free speech as restrictions on the content of speech.
Are we reduced to, "Die Gedanken sind frei"?
"The enemy is a cloud . . . So most of it's illusion."
I know what he means, but he's wrong.
Yes, lefty arguments are built on quicksand, yes, lefties operate in mobs.
But they have real power and they aim to prevail by any means necessary.
I'm afraid Sebastian (1:21) is absolutely right.
Michael K said... Howard prefers to live on his knees.
That might explain all his comments referring to fellatio.
Good advice from a person who's been attacked relentlessly by the "Mob".
I like these 2 quotes from George Orwell:
"...In a time of deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act..."
One more appropriate for today's completely discredited "Intellectuals":
"...the greater the understanding, the greater the delusion; the more intelligent, the less sane..."
The Crack Emcee said...
"Oh, pooh - you're just a deck of cards!"
- Alice in Wonderland.
This also explains why the right's hyperventalating is so silly.
**********************
Are the black and Asian business owners who lost everything to looting and arson "hyperventilating", Crack?
Jordan Peterson says that about one in ten white people (more like 12%) are too dumb (IQ < 83) to live constructive lives in modern society, and that cut-off would apply to 44% of black people.
Peterson does talk about the fact that IQ does exist, and does accurately predict future outcomes. However what he does is discuss the fact that the military is not allowed to induct someone with an IQ lower than a certain point. (I've seen everything from 80 to 85 cited) That's because it was determined that such a person could not be trained to do anything useful in the military, and would instead be a drag on efficiency. Most studies put the average Black IQ at 85. This implies that about half of all Black people, and a significant number of white people, have no productive role in modern society.
That's a scary idea, and probably why you're starting to hear about a universal basic income. We're literally going to go back to bread and circuses.
a white marxist terrorists who tried to bomb the capitol building who bill clinton pardoned with a whole heap of cash from the kellogg foundation, created this wannabe panther outfit fronted by cullors and tonetti, who have the seal of approval from maduro in venezuela,
Michael K: "Howard prefers to live on his knees."
Francisco D: "That might explain all his comments referring to fellatio."
I think Howard is trying to make up in rhetoric for what he lacks in terms of actual combat time from his no doubt short marine stint.
There is zero chance any marine that had seen actual combat would offer up such praise to the trigglypuffs comparing them to the lads that stormed the beaches of Normandy or Guadalcanal.
You won’t get blacklisted. That’s a bad word and the left doesn’t *blacklist*, only the right does that, the left just disappears you, cancels you, it’s like getting airbrushed out of the national scene. There doesn’t need to be a list, either you are part of the cult or you are banished.
"...the greater the understanding, the greater the delusion; the more intelligent, the less sane...”
Every system of rules, values, and power can be deconstructed. I guess your definition of “sane” is one who blindly accepts whatever the current system is as obviously true and stupid to think about, then your saying is true.
"Tell that to Derbyshire, Hsu and Watson,”
Are they without a voice now? What happened to them is that they were kicked out of their cushy spots living in the froth of a system that does not accept their values. If they have the courage of their convictions, they know that this system that ejected them will collapse of it’s own internal contradictions. Where is the loss? It reminds me of the people whining that the Enron employees lost everything before they had time to get rid of their stock and leave some other sucker holding the bag. The system, like Enron, is rotten, better, like the song from Sunday school says, to “build your house upon the rock” and not on shifting sands.
The left don’t burn books either, its just that suddenly they can’t be found, or suddenly, you can’t get a movie you may have “bought” for streaming because the mega corporation owned by billionaires that sold it to you has ended their rights to it. It’s all in the fine print you skip over. They don’t need a fire department to set fire to your movie prints, just a Twitter mob.
If you stand your ground and don't apologize and articulate things properly, they'll disperse around you like they're not even there. So most of it's illusion."
To paraphrase Al Capone " A kind word will take you a long way. A kind word and a gun will take you even further." If this Red Guard insanity continues eventually people will realize if you are doing the time you must as well do the crime. Mao eventually crushed the Red Guards. If this continues at some point there will be violent pushback. I hope this crazy comes to a halt soon as nothing good can come from it.
'Mob Rule' kills "Free Speech" everywhere!
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/mob-rule-is-crushing-free-speech-on-campus-30269p6q9
Blogger tim in vermont said..."I guess your definition of “sane” is one who blindly accepts whatever the current system is as obviously true and stupid to think about, then your saying is true." 6/27/20, 2:06 PM
Nope, Orwell states it best:
"...Reality exists in the human mind, and nowhere else...."
Narr (11:48):
We may all be "flukes of the Universe", but some of us are also flukes in another sense: "parasitic platyhelminth or flatworm of the class Trematoda, having one or more external suckers" (dictionary.com). Moderation has saved us from some (not all) of the flukes that suck the most.
"Jordan Peterson says that about one in ten white people (more like 12%) are too dumb (IQ < 83) to live constructive lives in modern society..."
If he said that then he's the dumb one.
An IQ one standard deviation below average doesn't make you a hopeless moron any more than an IQ one standard deviation above average makes you a brilliant genius.
I've worked with many, many people who were clearly well below average intelligence and a great many of them were well capable of, and did, lead constructive, productive lives.
I suspect that's not quite what he said and you are misinterpreting a discussion that might be out of your range.
“Not true. Most people will never lead, but there are leaders, in the counter-protests, and other times, places, and ways. There is reason for cautious optimism.”
You misunderstood me, my friend. Of course we’ll still stand up for ourselves, but I think the Conservative-Liberal/Parent-Adolescent relationship is finally at an end. These days when they run away from home nobody’s interested in finding them and bringing them back. Instead, we’re changing the locks.
"However what he does is discuss the fact that the military is not allowed to induct someone with an IQ lower than a certain point."
I don't think a military standard sets a standard for civilian life. People in the military use a lot of technology and capital.
The Baltimore Museum of Art has a display of giant neon letters that change from "SCIENCE" Tto "VIOLENCE" to "VIOLINS" created in 1982 as a commissioned piece by a California university that rejected it upon reconsideration. THEY ALMOST HAD THE IDEA! Only took another few decades of leftist idiocy to remove all the SCIENCE, and the VIOLINS, and make SILENCE=VIOLENCE.
https://bmoreart.com/2014/10/violins-violence-silence-is-back-at-the-bma.html
My wife is a popular professor of business law at a public university. I have warned her that in the climate today, teachers, public figures, and those with brands to protect will be forced to comply with the ritualistic recitation of the mob liturgy just as did Jenni Slate when she gave up her voice role in a cartoon series. I have told her that with a high degree of probability, she can fully expect to be challenged in class about her opinion of BLM and "systemic racism" and will be expected to elaborate on what she has done and plans to do about it. Many POC students have already insisted that she raise their grades because moral clarity.
In addition, she and I have a successful boutique law firm with prominent clients that we have spent years building, and it could easily be destroyed overnight by the mob just as advertisers are being forced to withdraw their ads from Facebook.
It is humiliating and cowardly that we have spent hours rehearsing her responses so that she will have them immediately ready without running the risk of suggesting what she really thinks. Nobody will defend her when the mob comes after her so we are forced to play this cowardly game. I had originally thought that the repudiation of all this by Trump winning in November and a takeover of the House would scatter the leftie swarm, but I have come to realize that it then will only get worse. The brownshirt Howards of this world will only be stopped when the shooting starts.
-Krumhorn
“It’s an illusion that it’s not safe to speak. That’s not going to help him sell books and tickets to people who want to be told that they’re victims.“
Maybe, but maybe you see enough scalps taken (Brendan Eich) and regular folks confronted with verbal or physical violence for holding different views (“punch a nazi”) you start to self-censor.
Years ago I was active in forums online. Now middle-aged with more to lose, I mostly abide by a no posting policy. Times are not what they once were for hetrodoxical views. www.slatestarcodex.com deleted his blog this week over such “illusionary” concerns.
I fear this will not end well.
These guys are a refreshing pair of voices.
First this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4S5OH2vhRXs
Then this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrwsRc31TFc
- Krumhorn
Peterson's point is that there is a cost to not speaking. He does not say it is costless to speak. He is saying if you censor yourself, the other side wins, and you are worse off. But he makes clear it is a choice between two poisons. There is no happy choice. They are all bad. Real life, adult life, serious life, is tragic because it is a choice between bad options, with no imaginary utopian answer. So, which bad option will you choose? That is the only question. It is akin to the maxim that it is better to die on your feet than live on your knees, or Live Free or Die, or even μολὼν λαβέ. Peterson also adds that the fear that prevents people from speaking is often based on an exaggeration of the threat, and that sometimes there are many people who just need one person to speak up to have the courage to do so themselves. But that is not always the case, and Peterson does not downplay the risks.
“I am not brave enough to be a coward," she said. "I see the consequences too clearly”
― Ayn Rand
-----------==========
it all depends on the causal connections one [is able to] makes [see the consequences]
the meme trending is silence is violence
the riposte should be
to be silenced is to be violenced (violated)
I just keep a stock of premise-doubting questions.
It's amazing how that stops the idiots from continuing their struggle session in my presence.
Peterson does talk about the fact that IQ does exist, and does accurately predict future outcomes. However what he does is discuss the fact that the military is not allowed to induct someone with an IQ lower than a certain point.
Some can still get waivers. No recruit who has had an IEP in school can be enlisted without a waiver but they are pretty routinely approved.
What interests me is the toll the animosity and pressure have take on Peterson yet Trump thrives in spite of worse.
Blogger Kuckhorn said...blah blah blah... but I have come to realize that it then will only get worse. The brownshirt Howards of this world will only be stopped when the shooting starts.
I'm not the one sending out warnings of violence, it's you people. I'm just encouraging you bloviating dude ranch cowboy wannabes to make good on your empty threats. Like I've said before: It's Never Gonna Happen. You people match the Ralph Kramden/Barney Fife stereotype DNA. You admit not having the guts to speak openly, but you will have the stones to start shooting people?? Boutique Lawyers of the World, Unite!
I realize it's unrealistic, but I wish a professor or two (since we're talking about Jordan Peterson) would go out with a bang.
"Professor, what will you do for us people of color who are grieving George Floyd's death, and are burdened by centuries of oppression?"
"I'm taking five points off your final grade for asking such a stupid question. Now go study your f'g ass off!"
In fairness to Peterson, Doc Mike, he and his family are all mental illness sufferers. He must have found out the Icarus myth is a dead-end hero journey that cannot survive the venture into chaos. I look forward to his return to the public octagon.
I'm not the one sending out warnings of violence, it's you people. I'm just encouraging you bloviating dude ranch cowboy wannabes to make good on your empty threats. Like I've said before: It's Never Gonna Happen. You people match the Ralph Kramden/Barney Fife stereotype DNA. You admit not having the guts to speak openly, but you will have the stones to start shooting people?? Boutique Lawyers of the World, Unite!
Howard clearly wants to encourage the violence. Fortunately, most of the sane folks are prepared to wait it out awhile to see if the enthusiastic destruction of peoples' lives and their livelihoods and the stark monochrome alternative assignment of wok moral clarity or racist, and the rush to force-feed the idiocy of White Fragility in re-edukation kamps by the likes of Howard abates. Even children are being praised and encouraged, as in other awful times in history, to turn the mob against their parents as happened the other day to Robert Regan in Michigan.
In the meantime, I will continue my cowardly ways while he continues his Howardly ways to see if basic decency is restored. In the event that it continues that dissenting views can not be safely expressed, it is inevitable that the result will be civil war, and as a former Marine Corps captain, I am uniquely equipped to deal with the Howards who so gleefully have participated in this madness. It will be my singular mission.
- Krumhorn
And when the mob takes up the call of the university professor who announced on Twitter that "White lives don't matter", it's reasonable to assume that this Howardly behavior will be met with a kinetic response.
- Krumhorn
Yo, Dr. Weevil--definately! Beware flukes--I think of what my son and I still call the "sewer sucker" episode in one of the early X-Files.
******
"Engaged scholarship" was already a big deal by the time I retired, five years ago.
You can easily imagine what it means, and be assured that your willingness to jump through PC hoops was noticed and went on your permanent record.
******
Back in the 90's, as I worked on my American/Southern/Minority history MA, we had readings of a critical race theory (sorry CRT--makes me thing of Combat Results Table but that's another story) nature.
One of the key points--this is BIG--is that the system of white (male) supremacy objectifies, subjugates, and sexualizes Black and female bodies, replicating from generation to generation the unfair power relationships which are the root of all social and personal problems and ills . . .
I thought, "Oh crap, they're on to us!" but managed to play the part of nice for an old white guy (in my 40s!). Of course it wasn't all like that.
Narr
The Professor--a very big, very gay, black man--was also very nice. We were all nice.
You admit not having the guts to speak openly, but you will have the stones to start shooting people?? Boutique Lawyers of the World, Unite!
For a fake Marine you are pretty cocky. Try car jacking in Arizona or Texas.
wholelottasplainin' said...
"Are the black and Asian business owners who lost everything to looting and arson "hyperventilating", Crack?"
You poor fool, blacks and asians can be racist against blacks.
Ask them how they feel about all the stores nation-wide deciding to stop treating blacks like criminals and unlocking grooming products - and following us around while we shop - and then I'll answer.
You guys understand nothing - like John Snow.
Thanks Progressives.
You can't speak because you'll be excluded from groups, from activities you used to enjoy. You can't speak because the audience doesn't have the same base in values, educational background, or assumptions of reality as you. Also,they can't be convinced, and will doxx you for being an irredeemable racist. How can you even reach them?
Crack--I love ya, man--but maybe you want to pick a better GoT reference-- remember who was alive and who was dead at the end.
Narr
Ever helpful
I don't think many of us seniors will be able to stand up to the mob when it means your Social Security payments, or perhaps even your U of W pension will be cut off due to some "problematic" comment you once made. Once enough AOC and BLM types have obtained political power, the thought police will be checking everyone's past. And the SJW types who run blogger and Google will be happy to turn over your history, with yellow highlighter on all the wrongthink comments you previously posted.
Ask them how they feel about all the stores nation-wide deciding to stop treating blacks like criminals and unlocking grooming products - and following us around while we shop - and then I'll answer.
As long as you're talking in universal terms of them and us, now that these defenses are being abandoned, can we expect a corresponding agreement by you to stop stealing? They're not locking the cases and following you around simply and purely to make you feel bad.
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