Said Trump, at yesterday's Task Force press briefing, expressing his disagreement with the Governor of Georgia. I enjoyed "I love these people... Bikers for Trump, a lot of tattoos. I love them, I love these people."
Trump's disagreement with the Governor is cagey. It combines reaching out — with love — to the people who want to be free — free to seek bodily adornment — with respect for federalism:
I told the governor of Georgia, Brian Kemp, that I disagree strongly with his decision to open certain facilities, which are in violation of the phase one guidelines for the incredible people of Georgia. They’re incredible people. I love those people. They’re great. They’ve been strong, resolute. But at the same time, he must do what he thinks is right. I want him to do what he thinks is right, but I disagree with him on what he’s doing, but I want to let the governors do. Now if I see something totally egregious, totally out of line, I’ll do.Interesting usage of "do" — let the governors do... I'll do.... It saves a lot of time going into the governmental details. And he's eager to get back to his paean to the people — the Trump people:
But I think spas, and beauty salons, and tattoo parlors, and barber shops in phase one, we’re going to have phase two very soon, is just too soon. I think it’s too soon. And I love the people. I love those people that use all of those things. The spas, and the beauty parlors, and barber shops, tattoo parlors, I love them. But they can wait a little bit longer, just a little bit, not much, because safety has to predominate. We have to have that. So I told the governor very simply that I disagree with this decision, but he has to do what he thinks is right.We have to do safety first, but if the Governor sees things a different way, then he has to do what he thinks is right. Trump is letting the Governor make the call... or is he? I think he wants the Governor to go first, to start to do whatever he thinks is right, but as the Governor thinks about what is right, he now knows Trump thinks it's wrong, and maybe Trump will step in somehow if he makes the wrong choice.
Later, Trump is asked about his conversation with Governor Kemp:
What did he say to you when you said you strongly disagreed with him? And for gym owners and tattoo parlor artists and barbers in Atlanta and Georgia generally, would you to advise them to listen to you and not to their governor?The question doesn't completely make sense. Business owners can listen to their Governor and hear that they are free to open, but that does not require them to open. Just as Trump is leaving the decision whether to remove the restrictions to the Governor, the Governor deciding to remove the restrictions would only be leaving the decision to the individual, and the individual can think for himself, and that thinking can take into account what he's heard from the President.
But that's how I — a law professor — think about federalism and levels of decisionmaking. What Trump said was:
Look, I’d like them to listen to their governors, all of their governors. I have the right to do if I wanted to clamp it down, but I have respect for our governors.There's that distinctive "do" again. The right to do. He's saying he has the power to override the Governor's decision, but he wants the Governors to go first and maybe they'll get it right. He puts some pressure on the Governor to get it right:
They know what they’re doing. I think… And as you know, Brian Kemp, governor of Georgia, I worked very hard for his election. He beat their superstar. He beat the superstar of their party. I think you could say I helped a lot. Michelle Obama, Barack Obama, Oprah Winfrey, they all went in. They campaigned for him very hard, and he lost.He lost? The "superstar" in question was Stacey Abrams.
[Kemp] also was way down in the primary and ended up winning the primary after I came out and endorsed him. So, a lot of good things and there’s a lot of good feeling between myself and Brian Kemp. I like him a lot. I happen to disagree with him only in time and timing.Then he turns away from Kemp and toward the people. The quote I put at the top of this post appears at this point in the transcript. And think about what that means to Kemp. Trump just got done saying You got elected because I came down there and connected with the people. And then suddenly he's directly connecting with the people, showing how he does it. I know these people. I love them.
Has Kemp backed down yet?
ADDED: It's best on video:
Posts
130 comments:
No governor yet found can face the arithmetic, but the end of the pandemic will be at hand when he or she shall be discovered.
We need the people who go first to be successful. If infections go up too much and they have to go back in to lockdown, then we’re all locked up indefinitely.
From VDH... Clarity
https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/04/coronavirus-crisis-bill-of-rights-protects-freedoms/
Trump is placing the marker. He released "guidance" and he wants it to be followed BUT it is each state Governor's decision as to how and when to open, as it should be. Federalism baby!
This pandemic has done MORE to show folks how heavy and heavy handed the US government is and how states DO own much of their destiny IF they are only willing to push back. Push back at the over-site, back at the regulations, back at the "strings".
This also gives Trump distance if a state has virus issues BUT it also frees the states to do their own thing. For Trump, he gets additional credit if it goes well by putting a reasonable framework in place and cover if it does not cause "state's rights".
Trump, worst tyrant EVER. He just refuses to be the dictator the left claims he is.
If you or I were to use that sort of language, all the love and such, we would likely and rightly be understood to be glad handing. Trump pulls it off, I think because people believe it is genuine. He uses the language to effectively frame the trade-offs, and the fact the governors, responsible for the well being of the people of their state, are in the best position to assess the trade-offs. By exposing the difference in opinion between the administration's guidance and the GA governors actions, he's giving the governor a lifeline, should he want to take it. Brilliant. More of that high IQ we were thinking about yesterday.
I work for a guy who lives in Atlanta with his wife and two teenage children and an 80-something MIL. He, and his family, plan to follow the distancing regime well after any re-opening in GA. His greatest fear is contracting the virus and bringing it home to his MIL. Wouldn't it be great if he and they could be tested for the antibodies.
The party line among the Woke in Atlanta Wednesday morning was that Gov. Kemp was easing the lockdown because he was Trump's "lapdog." Not to worry. I'm sure there's new guidance this morning.
@stevew
I believe Trump loves America and ordinary Deplorables.
He’s outflanking the Dems on all sides. They’re stuck with their oikophobia. The war against the normals that consumes the Dems is finally destroying them. The 60s nostalgia act of the Dems is a dead weight for them.
Ordinary, normal, Deplorable America isn’t what the Dems have tried to claim it is. Tattoo parlors!!! Bikers!!!
I’ll let you in on a secret. Tattoo parlors are, to a great extent, where you engrave a symbol of your sexual kink for public display. Biker rallies are tit flashing and wife swapping orgies!
We ordinary, normal, Deplorables are a pretty lively, perverted and fun loving bunch of bitter clingers.
Someone's got to go first. Trump shouldn't discourage that privately even if he does publicly.
Nobody seems to be worried about the health of American bats. Where is the animal rights lobby.
I'm not sure why it matters if Kemp backs down. The stay-at-home order was an order. They open up quidline is not an order. A lot of people are just saying well I'm not going to do it and they don't have to. And then a lot of other people think they are cowardly little girls that are going to hide under their beds until they starve to death. That's pretty much the situation in Atlanta
Kemp needs the state to open because without that their unemployment cannot last the year and their state government legally forbid itself from the usual fiscal solutions to that.
If the lockdown continues, Georgia will go broke right about November. Can't let that happen to Trump, so we will experiment with public health instead.
Wonder what the businesses who open and do not get enough customers to pay the bills will do. I assume beg Kemp to bail them out, again.
This is savvy by Trump. If there were clarity on the virus Kemp and Trump and Cuomo all might be making different decisions.
Note that the barber shops and tattoo parlors is a media-invented issue. They cherry-picked what they wanted to discuss.
We have allowed big chain stores to stay open throughout, but nobody is talking about the possibility of being infected in a Trader Joe’s, where product moves on and off the shelves quickly and so is handled by many people in a short time. A lot of this is noise.
Mark seems to have an incomplete understanding of Georgia’s finances.
I think we all need to recognize that we are going to live with this virus until there is an effective vaccine, herd immunity, or mutations that make it less powerful, just the way we lived with tuberculosis until antibiotics, small pox until universal vaccination, and polio until the Salk vaccine. We have lived through cholera, malaria, typhoid fever, and yellow fever. We can't and shouldn't shut down commercial life until there are no more cases. No matter when we "reopen" there are going to be more cases, and I don't think public health bureaucrats would ever tell us that any time is the time. Look at Zeke Emanuel.
We have to take individual responsibility for our well-being. I am over 70 with hypertension. When is the next time that I travel on a plane, or go to a concert, or eat at a restaurant? Do I wait for a year? Two years? There is nothing that Fauci or Trump or Emanuel can do to make any of that safer. Maybe some scientists in a vaccine lab can, but we are many months away from that.
Be prepared for a storm of second-guessing. This is a nasty virus, but we lived through "polio summers" when we were young. The world has to go on.
Oh, yeah. That was the other part of the Woke narrative on easing the lockdown: Kemp deliberately chose what establishments would be allowed to re-open to target minorities, so they would be fired and then be unable to collect unemployment.
serious questions
when (and WHY?) did governors decide that for every speech, a lady will do ASL next to them?
(here in iowa, anyway) they don't roll spanish or mandarin (or english) across the screen
but, ALWAYS have a lady, standing next to the governor; doing her hand dance
apparently, if you don't speak English; you are OUT OF LUCK
BUT! if you are one of the 500,000 and two million people, in the WHOLE country, that is deaf... you get your own floor show
So, my questions are:
WHAT are they trying to show?
WHY is the ASL signer ALWAYS a woman (at least, here in iowa)
WHEN did this start?
WHERE do they think deaf people get their other information? (news shows don't to this)
HOW do they think spanish speakers are supposed to get THEIR information
Re: state finances.
Illinois, where I live, has just been put to death by this lockdown. It was already on life support.
Jabba hasn't done ONE SINGLE THING to get spending under control. He gives a press conference every day where he whines about Orange Man Bad, and the feebs and nincompoops in the corporate media write it all down. It appears that the citizens of the other states owe the state of Illinois $41 billion, including $10 billion for pension promises made by various Illinois politicians.
Bah!
Kemp should stay as is. The Governor is opening up the state to certain types of small businesses. That does not mean that those businesses have to open. Nor does it mean that anyone has to go in and use those businesses. It's called freedom. And with freedom comes risks.
It's up to the individual owners and individual customers to come up with a way to do this that works, and that is safe for all of them. Some businesses can survive a few more weeks. But others cannot and need to get some money coming in. Even a little bit. I am sure the people at the NY Times don't quite understand that, but it's how most people live. They have to fight every day and every week to make their way.
Some of these people need to be allowed to figure out how to do this- even if it's only 30% of what they used to make. It's something. And for anyone- Trump, NY Times, Andrew Cuomo, Chris Hayes- anyone to decry them trying to survive is bullshit and out of bounds. They'll figure it out.
In the meantime, let New York clean up it's own backyard.
@Amadeus
I’m 70. Admittedly, I’m trim and in great shape, have no co-morbidities and don’t take a single prescription med.
As soon as I get out of house arrest, I”m heading out into public and raising hell, eating out, performing in my rehearsals and concerts and getting on a plane to visit a woman in Montana I’ve been conversing with for two years after meeting her on FB.
I’m not going to barter away the 10 to 15 years I’ve got left to caution. Hell, I never did that before this panic.
Live free or die!
"They campaigned for him very hard, and he lost."
He lost?
The "superstar" in question was Stacey Abrams.
Steady, Trump. This is no time to go Biden-y on us.
And don't make keeping tattoo parlors open a wedge issue. You could lose me with that.
That's great news Thomas, I thought you gave up on women.
ST--good on ya'!
@Howard
She’s a cowgirl!
In much of the country there are Spanish language television channels. There aren't any channels for the deaf, so far as I know (unless you count the one that just shows you a burning log or a fish tank 24/7).
Trump is just giving himself plausible deniability for any bad outcome and plausible credit for all the positive outcomes. His true genius is his inability to take his eye off the prize.
That paints an even prettier picture, Thomas. There's something about the way a cowgirl looks in wranglers that is quite fetching.
In Georgia, there will be many businesses in Atlanta that may not open. I'm not sure the Mayor of Atlanta will even allow it if push comes to shove. But away from Atlanta, Georgia is a very large state. And if it's like all of the other states, there are some regions of the state that are worse than other regions. Northern Georgia, north of Atlanta into the mountains...smaller towns, more spread out. Same thing with the farmlands south of Macon, or between Macon and Savannah, or Atlanta and Augusta.
A lot of room in a large state. This is a great experiment and we should all hope that Georgia can figure out the way to do this properly, instead of sitting on our 18 rolls of toilet paper making pronouncements on how Southerners don't understand. You'll find that Southerners understand quite a bit about how to survive and help each other.
Why is the ALS signer always a woman
For the same reason most mechanical engineers are male.
I hate the phrase "shelter in place". It means wait passively to die.
I like McConnell's idea that states should be allowed to declare bankruptcy. Let's face it. Several of them were bankrupt in a practical sense before the current crisis, mainly due to promises made that can never be kept. Tax revenue is down. Millions are out of work and may find their old jobs are gone. We can't tax our way out of this and more federal bailouts and deficit spending would just be another form of disaster.
Let the states write down their debt, present and future, and let them start fresh from a better place.
I don't know why you people are not more in favor of widespread compulsory use of masks in public. Masks allow for a reopening by providing a form of herd immunity by proxy based on the use of PPE. Masks buys us time for a vaccine to be developed and distributed to achieve herd immunity. Gaining herd immunity by actual infection will be a disaster.
Jersey Fled--...and then we get to the Illinois pensions, which are still going up 3% per year for every single pensioner. No one here wants to shoot that bear.
Nobody seems to be worried about the health of American bats. Where is the animal rights lobby.
Never fear, the federal government is worried and recommending!
"The federal government is recommending that scientists suspend some fieldwork involving bats in North America out of concern that researchers could pass the novel coronavirus to the animals, possibly imperiling bat populations or creating a new reservoir for a virus that has caused a global pandemic."
I hate the politics of this situation, especially now that so much attention is directed at my city and state. Knowing how to process this situation is hard enough but then throw in the left vs. right battles and it gets to be too much. I've stopped reading the AJC because their front page has been slowly moving out of the "just the facts" mode they seemed to be in for the first few weeks. They are now getting back to business as usual promoting democrats and taking shots at Trump, which I just don't have time for right now. And then Trump pulls this stunt (and it was a stunt). This nonsense makes the situation worse. It may be a brilliant political move but it still sucks nonetheless. But then again maybe if we are starting to really get back to the regularly scheduled garbage politics then maybe are actually moving to the final act of the lockdown, in which case Kemp is getting ahead of the curve. We will see and I am cheering for success in getting back to life.
Who is against masks?
What you mean we, masked man?
Kemp should stay as is. The Governor is opening up the state to certain types of small businesses. That does not mean that those businesses have to open. Nor does it mean that anyone has to go in and use those businesses. It's called freedom. And with freedom comes risks.
This is the part lost on the "government is my GOD"crowd.
People are sovereign, and do not require, or, need, the government to make their basic decision for them. There are bars I wont go into, regardless of time of day. I make a decision best for me.
People will do their own risk assessment. I have a tough time figuring out why this is so hard to grasp.
It's quite simple iowan2. People are not qualified to do a proper risk assessment that does not result in the irresponsible and indangerment of others.
This is the fundamental reason why we have so many public health and safety laws on the books. This is why we have eradicated so many communicable diseases and exposures to toxic chemicals.
Trump said "he" instead of "she." Once.
It's overblown in the analysis.
To those salivating over the right types of people dying in Georgia in order to get a tattoo: if we were really concerned about zero transmission, we would have shut down all the poultry processing plants and supermarkets and convenience stores and liquor stores and pot dispensaries. The National Guard would deliver rice and beans and corn from the backs of trucks and anyone making trouble or violating curfew would be shot.
That's how you shelter everyone. And if this were MERS instead of Covid-19, doing so might make sense.
But instead, we've left certain luxuries and conveniences open and declared them essential, an entirely subjective series of decisions. Those who choose to throw stones at other people's subjectivities should ask themselves: why is the New York Times recommending delicious chicken recipes while line workers in the Tyson processing plant in Albany, Georgia are dropping like flies?
We're all in this together, is what Trump is saying. Public health is the art of the possible. Different people need different sorts of encouragements, and the paltriness of what we know will require different responses from different states.
You'd think the cultural-sensitivity-worshipping leftists would appreciate the ways Trump speaks inclusively. But it's not about inclusivity for all, right? It's about raw political power for certain types of people.
Still, we uncertain types don't want to see them die. I just don't see them returning the sentiment, particularly with the Times' sneering new low of denouncing people who voted Republican, then died.
When they string up their own Food Section staff for violating right-think, I'll believe they're completely serious about stopping the virus. And saving the lives of the deplorables who stock their Trader Joe shelves at night.
Blogger Amadeus 48 said...
"Re: state finances.
Illinois, where I live, has just been put to death by this lockdown. It was already on life support.
Jabba hasn't done ONE SINGLE THING to get spending under control. He gives a press conference every day where he whines about Orange Man Bad, and the feebs and nincompoops in the corporate media write it all down. It appears that the citizens of the other states owe the state of Illinois $41 billion, including $10 billion for pension promises made by various Illinois politicians.
Bah!"
Mitch Maconnel is all for letting states declare bankruptcy. And will propose a law to make it so. Can't wait for Illinois to go under.
My apologies Amadeus 48. I received a lot of pushback yesterday on my promotion of the use of masks. Also I have not seen any direction for the proper use of masks in reopening plans. Also I said before I would have had a lot more respect for the anti shelter-in-place protesters if they were properly masks at their large gatherings.
People are not qualified to do a proper risk assessment that does not result in the irresponsible and indangerment of others.
No way in hell I’m going to live by this credo or be bullied by the emotional manipulation it employs.
This is a credo of absolute tyranny. Life free or die!
You’re responsible for the level of risk you’re willing to take. Same is true for me. A government that tries to regulate this is a government that must to be taken down by any means possible.
Life free or die!
Lurker21 said...
In much of the country there are Spanish language television channels.
not in iowa!
seriously, How many deaf people can't read english?
I REALLY Think that closed captioning solves this "problem"; without the need for theatrics
Not when those risks put other innocent people unnecessarily at risk. this is one reason why people are not allowed to legally discharge firearms in highly populated places.
last year in a motel we ran across a series of cable channels in Canada that described what was going on the television for the blind
I’m going to repeat this for the millionth time.
The panic is a mass delusion. The stats show that this is not that much greater a viral pandemic than the usual 10 year peak event.
Stop panicking! Stop being manipulated by the yellow journalism press. Clickbait hysteria porn is the business model of digital media.
Get Trump panics have been a gold mine for the yellow journalism press. They aren’t as much motivated by hatred of Trump as they are by the eyeballs they attract by pushing this panic.
Refuse to buy into the panic.
@Howard
So every subsequent viral pandemic demands we shut down the economy and subject everybody to house arrest?
Bullshit.
No way in hell I’m putting up with this again, motherfucker
You’re not much of a believer in democratic constitutional government anyway. When you appeared on this board for the first time, I thought you were a damned fool or an idiot. Instead, you’ve proven to be a great commenter precisely because you openly favor the intel sponsored coup against Trump on the grounds that the intel people know better how to run things.
It’s good to hear this perspective. Helps me to understand the outlook of the people who staged the coup. But, there’s no way in hell I”m acceding to this bullshit. Next time around you’ll have to kill me to subject me to house arrest.
Howard, people cannot legally discharge firearms in highly populated areas, for outdoor target practice, for example. But people are not and cannot be forbidded from legally discharging firearms in highly populated places in self defense, (except in Democrat/Leftist enclaves where rights are trampled by government, and that has been pushed waaaay back since 1980 to today). Individual rights in the United States are held to be supreme over such collective concerns (which are not "rights") as public safety, except in well-defined, narrowly limited circumstances.
For example, while one cannot legally perform target practice in the streets around New Orleans during Mardi Gras celebrations, legal concealed handgun carriers may indeed shoot a life-threatening mugger there and then. The individual rights to life, and self defense, and to bear arms, eclipses the state's authorized powers.
Prohibitions against enumerated constitutional rights are generally treated as necessary only in the most narrowly defined circumstances, with strict interpretation of the right prevailing. Keeping our entire country in lockdown beyond the need to prevent breakdown of the entire US health system is not just insane, it is unconstitutional.
This is Trump having it both ways. He’s the cautious, science-following leader; he’s the states rights, Liberty-loving president. My guess is he told Kemp “Go for it” if not in actual words then with winks and nods. And it’s a great strategy: Kemp gets to show independence, the Quick Open strategy gets a test case, and Trump gets a win no matter how the chips fall.
My point is Thomas we need to learn to handle these things like the Asians already do. You sound like you want to charge that machine gun nest with only a knife in your teeth.
Howard said...
Trump is just giving himself plausible deniability for any bad outcome and plausible credit for all the positive outcomes. His true genius is his inability to take his eye off the prize.
4/23/20, 7:07 AM
On this we actually agree. When it is also the right thing to do, that is a win-win!
Mikee yes exactly like vaccines. I don't think many of you people are aware how much you are behaving exactly like the ridiculous stupid and dangerous anti-vaxxers.
Todd, Trump is completely passing the buck showing no leadership on the reopening plan and then he is throwing the people he passed the buck to under the bus. That's an abomination, not leadership. But thanks for confirming that it does satisfy you people which of course is his goal. Does it make you feel good to be patronized?
How much you wanna bet those barbers and tattooers don't put some tools in a bag and make house calls?
People in Atlanta got to get their hair did.
The historical improvements in public health (taken to mean a reduction in mortality) are a function of economic growth and the advancement of technology (and the interplay between economic advance and technological advance is very complex).
This is global, seen everywhere. Differences between societies are almost wholly explained by economics. Public policy and regulation aren't independent of these primary factors, they are very much downstream of economic conditions.
It is easy to mistake public policy as a cause and not an effect, this is a common delusion. But it is always putting the cart before the horse. Countries have to get rich, or rich enough, to afford a given set of public policies.
This is also true of education btw. To a great extent both education and health (whether paid for publicly or privately) are consumption goods, things people like to spend money on once they have enough money.
Yes, Howard, I know that the intel community thinks the Asian model is where we should go.
When the CCP decides to build a 6 lane superhighway between Beijing and some government designed city planned to house 10 million people in the hinterland, they just do it. Work starts within weeks of the decision, dissenters are disposed of, and the whole project is complete in a year.
The intel community is profoundly in awe of this model.
We Americans are an unruly, feisty and probably uncontrollable lot of Deplorables.
I pointed out dr brights interesting connections to the who to the defense department to novavex which was working on nanoflu vaccine.
I can't really see a disaster scenario for most of the states that open early. They generally have low rates of infection and mortality for a reason. Mostly it has to do with population density.
It's questionable how much shelter in place and business shutdowns have impacted their numbers. NYC yes. Montana no.
I suspect most will see a slight increase in infections, but nothing you could reasonably call catastrophic. Of course the media will blow every death way out of proportion, but that is to be expected.
I don't get the great firestorm over this. My spouse went out for groceries last week here in GA. He said it was obvious people were no longer sheltering in place. Stores were full. People got their trumpbucks and wanted to spend them. If the tattoo artist wears a mask and gloves and the patron does too, how great is the risk really?
The ladies around here (a long way from Atlanta) are in a desperate state in re their hair and nails, or so I am informed. I am certainly not qualified to judge what constitutes a critical need.
Gilbar, I’m with you on the governors/ASL deal. It’s a cartoon, it’s virtue signalling, it’s all show. I highly suspect the deaf don’t even watch it. They probably have closed captioning on.
"I think it’s too soon."
But too soon why, and for what?
The curve has been flattened, in Georgia I take it as everywhere. Hospitals are not overwhelmed, anywhere. In fact, hospitals are suffering because they go empty and couldn't practice normal medicine. So, there goes half the rationale for shutdowns.
We now know even more clearly what early data clearly indicated, that WuFlu hits certain groups hard. Solution: keep them out of the way. It hits old, sick people in nursing homes hard, so let's isolate them, within reason. The wide community spread that was the obvious inference from early data, and is now being confirmed by actual studies, is reassuring: the vast majority of people don't even notice the silent invader, and it is harmless to healthy young people. So there goes the second rationale for general shutdowns: they do most people no good and are bound to have minimal effect on actual death counts.
Of course, by traditional epidemiological standards they are actually counterproductive in delaying herd immunity. It's late but not too late to create more "cases."
Danger: INTUITIVE POLITICAL GENIUS AT WORK.
There is no reason for Kemp to “back down” because we are not idiots like you Yankees always standing by for your orders. The majority of restaurant owners in Atlanta are waiting til they, the owners, are comfortable with the safety of their employees and customers.Couldt be a week could be a few days or months. But the owners will be doing the deciding, not Kemp, not Trump not the tv doctors.
And in Rabun county where there have been zero infections and zero deaths. Ditto in a dozen other Georgia counties.
Time magazine made a big deal of having a worker from doughterty county in full gearm
Meanwhile, out in the real world:
"Minnesota Department of Health Commissioner Jan Malcolm provided the demographic profile of the 19 new decedents at yesterday’s daily briefing with Governor Walz and others: two in their 90’s, 8 in their 80’s, 7 in their 70’s, one in his or her 60’s, and one in his or her 50’s (“with significant underlying conditions”)."
It's the plague, I tell you.
Howard said...
Todd, Trump is completely passing the buck showing no leadership on the reopening plan and then he is throwing the people he passed the buck to under the bus. That's an abomination, not leadership. But thanks for confirming that it does satisfy you people which of course is his goal. Does it make you feel good to be patronized?
4/23/20, 8:02 AM
As previously noted, Trump is NOT the dictator the left calls him. He is doing what he can. The administration put out a reasonable plan/guideline (some think too cautious, some to reckless but it is a plan) and it is up to the individual states as to if and when they do or do not choose to follow it. States rights you know. That thing that the Democrats and the deep state has spend 70+ years trying to end. He is not passing the buck as you like to say. He is having the states make their own call which is how it is SUPPOSED to work. Why is it SO hard for you to get that?
You bitch and moan when he "takes charge" and you bitch and moan when he does not. He is ONLY able to do some things as POTUS and he seems to understand those limits FAR better than the guy with a law degree that he replaced.
You want to stay locked down? Then do. Everywhere is NOT NYC and everywhere should not be treated like NYC.
The barber shop may be non-essential to its customers, but it's damned essential to the barber.
"And for gym owners and tattoo parlor artists and barbers in Atlanta and Georgia generally, would you to advise them to listen to you and not to their governor?"
Althouse said...
The question doesn't completely make sense... But that's how I — a law professor — think about federalism and levels of decision-making.
For many on the left and the media, "listen" and "obey" are the same thing.
Good site with information on why masks help:
https://masks4all.co/
My take on Masks:
1. They help the other person, more than you. This way droplets an infected person expels, don't go as far.
2. They stop you from touching your face
3. The US Experts messed up by being initially anti Mask
And I am still having a hard time buying hand sanitizer. FDA Approval required - aargh... Same with why N95 Masks are classified as Medical Devices, so lots of testing. Legal Liability issues for mask manufacturers if they don't get FDA approval. And obstacles to have N95 Masks 3D printed.
It's hard for me to understand why it would be unsafe to operate a barbershop now, but safe to do so in 30 or 45 days. What is expected to happen in the meantime?
Never noticed, but Trump sometimes sounds a little like Christopher Walken.
What a thing to live thru a media induced panic.
What’s even more amazing is how at ease most people seem to be with that.
Remember when President Trump said he had total authority over reopening and all the knees jerked at once to extol the virtues of federalism? The states were fifty different “laboratories” that should not be under an orange thumb.
That lasted about thirty seconds.
Now the right-thinking people are aghast that different states might reopen in different ways. Fuck the laboratories, governors must all act in lockstep, following the lowest common denominator states where governors have proved their wisdom by getting the highest numbers of their citizens to die.
Howard said
It's quite simple iowan2. People are not qualified to do a proper risk assessment that does not result in the irresponsible and indangerment of others.
That's a load of crap. The governor of Michigan is a great example. Canoes, OK, motor boats, prohibited. Lottery tickets ok, Seeds, prohibited. You get the idea. The govt has not exhibited competence over that of the general population. I cant get my hair cut at a one chair shop, but in the WalMart 3 generations of a family are crowding the isles. I CHOOSE to go into WalMart, Government has decided it is safer than a one chair salon.
We know the risk today. (we knew it 8 weeks ago) The eldery and persons with one or more of a short list of health factors. Yet today, your GOD like government has failed to protect them.
If we were worried about a second wave next winter, wouldn’t we want as many people as possible to develop antibodies between now and then?
I have a lot of trouble accepting the notion that Stacy Abrams is a 'superstar.'
She's loud and obnoxious, but so is any braying donkey.
Is she a 'superstar' because she and the media like to pretend she should have won the Georgia governorship? Being a bad loser makes you a 'superstar?'
Well, I guess it worked for Al Gore.
Shouting Thomas said...
@Amadeus
As soon as I get out of house arrest, I”m heading out into public and raising hell, eating out, performing in my rehearsals and concerts and getting on a plane to visit a woman in Montana I’ve been conversing with for two years after meeting her on FB.
HELL YEAH, ST!
Except for the Montana woman, I'm with you all the way.
Damn well told.
John Henry
@Lucien:
We still don't know if having COVID-19 confers immunity, nor how long it might last if it does.
It's hard for me to understand why it would be unsafe to operate a barbershop now, but safe to do so in 30 or 45 days. What is expected to happen in the meantime?
Don't forget, this lockdown was ONLY to prevent the health care system from being overloaded. Not to save any lives. Mission accomplished. Now the goalposts are on a trailer, constantly in motion, never to be attained. Absolutely nothing is going to change in days, and thing that should have been opened today, will open in days, nothing will have changed and we are supposed to ignore the idiocy of the govt players.
Michael said...
"And in Rabun county where there have been zero infections and zero deaths. Ditto in a dozen other Georgia counties."
I rode my motorcycle (real fat-tire bike) along Lake Burton last week. Springtime in Rabun is glorious.
"Ray - SoCal said, "2. They stop you from touching your face."
I'm not so sure about that. Most people seem to use the masks "correctly", but I still see all too many adjusting them, letting them hang off their chins when they need a "break", exposing their noses...It's also easy to wonder how well people are taking care of these masks or replacing them timely.
Shutting down the entire country and putting everybody under house arrest in the hope of extending the lives of the morbidly obese elderly by a few months or years is just plain stupid.
This has been a bizarre episode of mass delusion and panic.
I’ve lived thru a lot of this, but this craziness really takes the cake!
I was not criticizing you for the Montana woman, ST.
I just don't think my wife would like it. But for you? Go for it.
John Henry
Never noticed, but Trump sometimes sounds a little like Christopher Walken.
Both Queens guys, born three years and about ten miles apart. Both with mothers born in Scotland. Both with fathers of German descent, Walken's an immigrant from the Old Country.
We still don't know if having COVID-19 confers immunity, nor how long it might last if it does.
You have to explain California vs New York and Las Angeles vs NYC
But to a larger point, we have been making assumptions from the start, about how virus' act. Herd immunity is a pretty solid assumption. Until proven wrong. Then worse case? STILL protect the most vulnerable. Assuming (again) that success/failure is measured by death rate.
Coupla questions about states and bankruptcy:
1) I had understood that most (all?) state constitutions required states to operate with balanced budgets*. How would opening up the BR Code to states interact with their constitutions? Would amendment be required?
2) How would opening up BR Code to states affect current state creditors -- who presumably invested in state debt at risk tolerances and interest rates that reflected a different investment decision?
3) Would allowing states to claim bankruptcy pave the way toward possible resolutions involving heavy-handed federal presence on the order of the GM 2008 bankruptcy, where unions were favored, secured creditors shafted, and the like?
4) How might it affect the political/sovereign relationship between D.C. and the states? ...keeping in mind the potential "unseen" as well as the likely "seen." Might that not result in regretful change for the sake of an expedient financial solution to state overspending?
5) If a state may file bankruptcy, how might that affect (by way of example only) the "psychology" of Illinois' or Connecticut's free-spending political bodies? Would it induce more prudence? Or might it release them from any pretense of economic responsibility? I.e., build up debt, discharge. Build up debt, discharge, ad infinitum....
If supermarkets and big box stores can stay open during this debacle without any adverse effects, that I know of, then why not any other retail establishment?
Tattoo artist wear masks, manicurist wear masks, and have been for years. So why not let them open?
* forgot. Some states seem to avoid compliance via various loopholes(?) like, high assumed rates of return on pension funds, public-private partnering for some infrastructure improvements, fancy accounting like present benefit v future payment, etc.
ST--Keep going. You are on a roll.
This is an induced global economic coma. I have never seen anything like it. The political actors, with the advice of impractical public health "experts", have shut down the world.
In the old days--tuberculosis, measles, polio, HIV and AIDS, up until the 1990s--we got on with life and prayed for a solution, while men and women of science worked on an answer. Eventually (the time to solution gets shorter), a solution was found, but life wasn't put on hold.
We need to get over this. This virus is primarily carrying off the old and infirm. It will continue to do so after any lock down is ended until a solution (which may be herd immunity) is found.
Wake up! Get on with life.
Sheesh.
BUMBLE BEE:
I loved the VDH article, but I'm not quite as optimistic as he is. A majority of the people in this country folded, without question, when all of these arbitrary restrictions were thrown at people. Here in Michigan, there was a pretty big protest, but even after that, Whitmer has a 57% approval rating. Most people are willing to hand in their freedoms for security.
This is a good test run for the future dictators that run certain states. They've learned that they can get away with almost anything, if it's in the guise of "saving lives". When states start declaring emergencies over climate change, it'll be interesting to see what the reaction will be. Let me just say for a second time that I'm not optimistic.
Howard said... People are not qualified to do a proper risk assessment that does not result in the irresponsible and indangerment of others.
From what I see here in southern Arizona, people overestimate the risks of COVID-19 infections. We have had very few deaths and no overwhelmed healthcare system.
Stock market behavior is a good indicator of risk assessment. The market runs on greed and fear. Fear has always been more powerful in its effect on investors which suggests overestimation of risk.
the link I turned up last
The Trump cocktail seems to be working.
Veterans Affairs’ Robert Wilkie on yesterday’s hydroxychloroquine study: "That’s an observational study. It’s not a clinical study ... We know the drug has been working on middle-age and younger veterans. And the gov of NY was just in the Oval Office yesterday asking for more" MSNBC
Libs and their media just want people to die, always have. Overpopulation has always been their great boogie man. People are always in their way to total domination. Just look at how wonderful they think it is that the skies are clear because we're all locked up. They want it to stay that way...as long as they're still drawing a paycheck, anyway.
Channeling Tina Trent, Shouting Thomas, Sebastian, and others, at least to a degree, I love this refrain from Malcolm Kendrick, Scottish MD.
From "The Anti-lockdown Strategy" blogpost:
"Unfortunately, it seems that COVID-19 has infected everyone involved in healthcare management and turned their brains into useless mush....In my view, if we had any sense, we would lockdown/protect the elderly, and let everyone else get on with their lives...However, the hospitals themselves have another policy. Which is to discharge the elderly unwell patients with COVID directly back into the community, and care homes. Where they can spread the virus widely amongst the most vulnerable.
This, believe it or not, is NHS policy. Still."
"She’s a cowgirl!"
Old enough now to change her name?
Whitmer has a pretty low approval rating in my house.
She is like the worst third-grade teacher anyone ever had. I guess some people like that.
Having said that, the road to Holland is pretty busy right before and after shift changes, so I guess a lot of factory jobs in Ottawa County are essential. And the grocery stores are pretty busy. It is the little guy businesses and recreation activities that she hit hard.
I see that the UAW has told its members to get ready to go back to GM.
Trump has handling it perfectly. Again, I'm always amazed at the MSM. They All march in lockstep - except fox occasionally. They're all the same. They're like robots following the lead of the WaPo and NYT. The party line before was "Was wasn't Trump issuing a nationwide lockdown?" Then when it appeared like Trump might issue a nation-wide reopen order, the MSM went into hysterics about "King Trump". Now, they're back to asking Trump why he "allows" a State Governor to reopen so quickly.
They WH Press Corps is completely worthless and in the tank for the DNC. I've gotten to the point of just skipping all the questions, and listetning to Trump and the Doctors. The press questions are just designed to attack Trump or the R's or play "gotcha".
Why are we talking about Kemp? Why all these questions about Kemp? Easy. He's an R, and the MSM wants to make Kemp look bad by having Trump attack him. Also, they wanted Trump to support Kemp, so they could blame him too, if things go bad. But Trump didn't fall into the Trap.
See? Its all about Gotcha and trying to help the Democrats. The Press cares Zero for the country. Bezos and Jeff Zucker should have the balls to show up at the Trump press conferences and debate Trump one-on-one, instead of sending their lackey's to do it.
Trump wants to reopen the economy. But, he also sees political risk. If he gets too far out front, then he would be responsible for any upsurge or second wave virus casualities -- at least in the eyes of the media/DNC lackeys.
So, he plays the game. Let Kemp get out in front, and see what happens.
Reopen the economy!
I admire Kemp for taking the lead. Someone has to take the lead to reopen, and take a chance. Give the hot weather in GA, I don't think the virus will explode. FLA will probably be next. Plus outside of Atlanta its a rural state, and Altanta itself is spread out. They have a mass transit system, but mostly everyone drives.
The real question is when is calf going to reopen. Huge amounts of the state are being shut down because LA and SF.
"No governor yet found can face the arithmetic, but the end of the pandemic will be at hand when he or she shall be discovered."
Ah, a Lincoln scholar. Its clsses up the comments.
Oh, yeah. And Whitmer is going to have to deal with the financial fallout from her actions.
I see the State of Michigan has already cut 2,900 jobs. I guess they weren't essential.
@DarkHelmet: Which would change the calculus how? Would we want to minimize the number of folks who could be immune just because we can’t be sure; or would we just disregard potential herd immunity for decision making purposes?
I Callahan... I'm not terribly optimistic either, but I'd say the over-reach is moving a lot of independents off center around my place . Lotsa people out and about and little/no police. Trump's statement of absolute power early on was an inoculation IMHO. Folks in the hospitality biz often have the "what if" stuff as considered in their routine. Folks like Cuomo and Whitless have the shortsightedness to be stepping on their own dicks. Their unpreparedness for such disasters as this comes back to bite them. Trump only had replenishment of Barry O's equipment shortages to shield him. Basically we're back to the Hillary Election Fail. She'd have the whole country bailing out the demtastrophe states by now. They were counting on it. They had their voting frauds in place ... but no soap.
Kemp is an interesting case because, in my small world, he is sort of a party-line litmus test. A friend of mine who gets all her news from the MSM and a friend of hers who is a CNN Eloi, tells me, "Kemp is a moron." When asked why, she pretty much has nothing. I've never been a particular fan of his, but he was infinitely preferable to his loathesome opponent, Stacy the Tank. Plusm if he making the "liberal" Hive angry--the worst people on Earth--he's obviously doing something right.
The flu vaccine isn't. It is marginally effective. Tens of thousands die in the US every year, most of them old and compromised. We don't shut down for that. This is stupid. NYC can do whatever they want and the normal rest of us can too.
The mask issue is really dodgy. If it is to keep one from contaminating others, why not reuse it? If it is to save you, you're S.O.L. unless it is M95 or equivalent. Catch 22 is a very fine catch. Where to but M95s? I had some leftovers from drywalling projects. But, where now?
Flu vaccine is a "Best Guess" cocktail. Risk is assumed. My Doc orders his later than the county provides the service. Works for me!
Keep the panic flowing.... vote by mail.
Stacey Abrams is a women, she asserted.
Without evidence.
Trump says we have 500 million masks. Well hand 'em out, and lets get back to work
To open our economy does not require any business to open if the owners think it is too soon and does not require anyone who is sheltering in place to go out. Employers must make their employees and customers feel safe or they will not have any employees or customers. The people in government who are determined to micromanage opening the economy have nothing to lose by being wrong. Each business has a lot to lose by getting it wrong so they have every incentive to get it right. Let the people who have something on the line be the ones to figure out how best to open the economy.
I wonder what would have happened if Trump had ordered the Governor of Michigan to open the garden supplies aisle in Walmart. Dictator!....The media would have spared no effort to find someone who got infected in the garden aisle at Walmart.
How many deaf people can't read English? Depends on what you mean by read, but many read and write English far less than fluently because sign is completely different. I didn't know this until recently, and I don't fault anyone else for not knowing it, but I suggest getting to know some people in the deaf community. They are around you, but you probably never notice them.
Re ALS signers: Most of them look like weary civil servants, and many are eyesores. The Governor of Louisiana, though, had a reasonably attractive woman doing signage for him. That was a mistake by the Governor. Your eye kept drifting to the pretty woman and her animated movements and and away from the Governor.
Francisco D. I prefer to take the results as American exceptionalism out-performing all the models.
Some violations of social distancing cause far less criticism in the media. Here in NYC the people line up for food pantries. The lines are long. Much longer than the lines to vote in Milwaukee. Not everyone in those line wears a mask, and the lines are knotted with social little groups. None of this spreads coronavirus because Dem voters doing pc activities are immune from the virus....And it's good to see that here, in this time of crisis, we are still offering shelter to our homeless population of the subway.
Here is another of my ongoing suggestions to make America a better place: I think members of the broadcast media in order to show solidarity with ordinary Americans should forgo their salaries for the duration of the lockdown. They should receive no more than unemployment benefits.....The media are our eyes and ears, but those eyes and ears are connected to a different central nervous system. If they stop receiving their checks, I think their responses might be more in tune with what ordinary Americans feel......Also, Stacy Abrams should take off a few pounds. Obesity is the leading comorbidity. If she did so, it might inspire some of her followers to follow suit. It might save a few lives.
Obesity is the leading comorbidity. If she did so, it might inspire some of her followers to follow suit. It might save a few lives.
Choice and obesity are leading factors of excess deaths in that order.
Re: masks
They stop you from touching your face
Not me. I have sensitive skin. Having a mask on my face pretty much requires me to constantly touching my face. So now I'm touching both the mask, my face, fidgeting with it, and everything else and repeating the process.
If touch transmission is a possibility I'm better off not wearing a mask.
When Birx initially discussed the beloved guidelines, there was explicit mention of county by county considerations.
How much of that is happening across D states?
The task force guidelines are based on testing the symptomatic.
Evers wants 85,000 tests per week with already "loosening" criteria for administering.
Does he think 85,000 Sconnies a week will be symptomatic?
Re "Tank" Abrams, there's an article on today's Instapundit addressing the question, "If their ideas are so good, why do they keep trying to steal elections?"
We need to get over this. This virus is primarily carrying off the old and infirm. It will continue to do so after any lock down is ended until a solution (which may be herd immunity) is found.
Agreed. As hospitalizations in your area drop, the economy of that area needs to reopen.
The danger to America as a whole staying shutdown is worse than the danger of the virus at this point.
Trump's speech mannerisms is classic CEO.
He set the strategy: We need to re-open the country. Here are some guidelines to use for your branch of the company (i.e. state/county). But you know your branch best.
Branch manager sees opportunity for some value of risk/reward. And opens up.
The media is trying to play gotcha games with the CEO, getting him to accept responsibility for actions and details (barber shop, tattoo parlors, etc) that he's not responsible for. He can't take responsibility for the detailed actions of the branch manager and remain an effective CEO. That's why he has the branch manager. To insulate and manage the local branch. Trump played it beautifully. Any other commentary would lead to bad outcomes: follow-on questions about other details (what about pet stores?), second guessing the decision and leading to inaction and further economic ruination, etc.
In the Powertalk of Trump. He's telling Kemp: "I can't take the fall for this but you will be rewarded if it works out and we'll share in the glory. If it doesn't I won't blame you and I will still work to insulate you but I can't take ownership. Even though I'm telling you this is the right thing to do. I need plausible deniability to manage other branches."
Kemp understands the Powertalk used by "sociapaths" and knows he has the green light to proceed. In ribbon-farm (link above) parlance, most of the world is "clueless" or "losers" and can't understand the language Trump is using.
It's hard for me to understand why it would be unsafe to operate a barbershop now, but safe to do so in 30 or 45 days.
Because it was never about 'flattening the curve.' It was - and is - about control.
Tick. Tock.
We will learn in the next 5-6 weeks whether or not we are serious people any longer. A commenter above was right- someone/governor/state has to go first. I expect to see new cases go up, I hope they don't go up very much, and then stabilize, but if they do, and we shut down again, then we really aren't a serious people any longer, and we deserve what follows that.
Shutting down for even 3 months was never an option- the rationale for trying to do so is why you are seeing food processing facilities closing this week. If we continue on this path, you will see further such closures. This idea that you split the country, with half sheltering and half doing the work to continue to feed us, provide us our utilities, and deliver our Amazon packages was never going to work for very long. The same fear that drove us to shelter in place will drive the essential workers and their employers to do the same- this is the message you need to take away from the meat packing closures this week- they are canaries to which you need to pay attention.
This cycle of fear has to be broken, and it has be broken soon.
Gregory Rigano
@RiganoESQ
·
Apr 21
Replying to
@matthewherper
and
@Aiims1742
Hopkins terminated my grigano1@jhu.edu email ~ March 20 2020
@elonmusk
published our paper on March 16
Twitter claims the paper is malware + Google took it down
@raoult_didier
+ @zev_dr
: treat before hospital 3000+ patients experience
Hopkins treating after hospital. Why?
So, how is the NYC subway operating? Is it shut down? Masks required? 6 feet required?
NYC homeless turn to subway during coronavirus crisis
Rabun County is one of the most beautiful places in America. Interesting history too. Several writers lived in the area.
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