March 24, 2020

"When Mr. Trump knows that he has more to gain than to lose by keeping an adviser, he has resisted impulses to fight back against apparent criticism..."

"... sometimes for monthslong interludes. One example was when he wanted to fire the White House counsel, Donald F. McGahn II, in 2017 and early 2018. Another was Jeff Sessions, the former attorney general. Mr. Trump eventually fired both when he felt the danger in doing so had passed. So far, the president appears to be making the same calculation with Dr. Fauci, who was not on the briefing room podium on Monday evening.... [I]n the past two weeks, as Dr. Fauci’s interviews have increased in frequency, White House officials have become more concerned that he is criticizing the president. Officials asked him about the viral moment in the White House briefing room, when he put his hand to his face and appeared to suppress a chuckle after Mr. Trump referred to the State Department as the 'Deep State Department.'... Dr. Fauci, for his part, has been dismissive of some questions about whether he was at odds with the president, treating it as a news media obsession. 'I think there’s this issue of trying to separate the two of us,' he said on CBS."

Writes Maggie Haberman at the NYT.

136 comments:

Sebastian said...

"appeared to suppress a chuckle after Mr. Trump referred to the State Department as the 'Deep State Department.'"

Maybe he's the one Hill supporter with a sense of humor?

Anyway, I suspect a battle is coming: Trump wants to save the economy, Fauci will want to "save lives."

walt said...

I was interested in this article until I got to the link at the bottom that shows who wrote it and who published it. SOS/MOS from NYT.

AllenS said...

The NYT? I could care less about what any of them have to say about anything.

Lucid-Ideas said...

Isn't that everybody? Good lord I did that when I was a CO and I do it with subordinates at my current job.

I think that's everyone really.

The Cracker Emcee Refulgent said...

I’m puzzled. A snarky, entirely predictable, gossip piece in the NYT is bloggable why? Neither perspiration nor inspiration.

David Begley said...

More mind reading and speculation by Maggie.

Ann Althouse said...

Fauci denied that he was reacting to "deep State Department." Claims he had a lozenge stuck in his throat and was covering up his effort to clear that out.

Ann Althouse said...

To my eye, Fauci looked amused by Trump being Trump but didn't want to contribute to anything that wasn't purely scientific.

Jeff Weimer said...

From what I gather, nearly all media interviews with Fauci quickly descend into leading questions designed to get him to denounce Trump. To his credit, he resists giving them what they want.

Yesterday, Twitter lefties and the media (including this NYT piece) descended into Kremlinology (Trumpkinology?) over his absence at the presser.

SteveM said...

Illuminating article! All the other articles that I’ve seen discussing the picture of Dr. Fauci with his hand to his face, imply that Dr. Fauci is disagreeing with something Trump said substantively about the virus, not the Deep State Department.

Fernandistein said...

"When Mr. Trump knows that ..."

If the NYeT scribbler is such a good mind reader, why is xe wasting xe's time scribbling for the NYeT?

Stay Safe said...

This past Sunday afternoon my local am radio station replayed Rush Limbaugh’s program from two Thursday’s ago. (March 12.) He spent three hours making fun of how (in his opinion) officials were overreacting. He claimed the covid-19 virus was not nearly as bad as the 2009 swine flu during the Obama administration. Limbaugh spent three hours telling his Dittoheads to not take this seriously.

He will have directly caused the death of many of his listeners.

Rush Limbaugh is the man Donald Trump recently bestowed the Medal of Freedom.

Browndog said...

The lead article on Yahoo! this morning was Dr, Fauci missing from the press conference.

The one nobody but Fox/OAN aired in it's entirety.

Media knows he's a NeverTrumper but more importantly wants drag this thing out. The media will always choose one person to be in charge that might do damage to Trump on any given issue.

Trump is never allowed to be in charge. Never allowed to be "President".

Laughing Fox said...

I saw most of the press conference yesterday. It looked to me as if there were plenty of other topics to cover besides those that Dr. Fauci covers. Besides, maybe the dear doctor has other work to do???

wendybar said...

Bird cage liner. Meh.

Nichevo said...


Ann Althouse said...
Fauci denied that he was reacting to "deep State Department." Claims he had a lozenge stuck in his throat and was covering up his effort to clear that out.

3/24/20, 8:28 AM



Sounds like a job for...LLR-Man!

Mike (MJB Wolf) said...

And yet no enterprising reporter has the balls to ask Fauci why his approach to THIS pandemic is so very different from what he said and did in 2009 during the H1N1 wave. He literally said 100% opposite of his current advice, including the wonderful quote, "...You can't isolate yourself from the rest of the world for the whole flu season." But the DNC-Media wish to keep his past position in the dark. Why such a different approach THIS time Doctor?

And this:
In September 2009, after millions had become infected with the H1N1 influenza and thousands had died, some of whom were young people and children, a relaxed and unalarmed Dr. Anthony Fauci told an interviewer that people just need "to use good judgment."

Read more: https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2020/03/what_did_dr_fauci_have_to_say_in_2009_about_the_deadly_h1n1_pandemic.html#ixzz6Hc6SQvct

wendybar said...

If you actually watched the Press conference yesterday, you would know Dr. Fauci was in other coronavirus meetings. My God do they love to make up rumors or what???

Ken B said...

More mind reading. Pathetic. Look at Haberman's history of bogus claims too.

Has Glenn cracked the whip at Instapundit?
- a post about not liking deleting things but not praising Ginn
- a post directly and sarcastically affirming the “quarantine” approach to the danger of covid19
- no Hoyt overnight
- no Martin overnight

I do hope he has.

Clayton Hennesey said...

Never forget that no medical professional - an economic cartel from the get-go - ever gets credentialed without being trained that paying for their decisions will always properly be the concern and responsibility of others.

zipity said...


This is a bad pandemic, don't get me wrong.

But that doesn't mean it won't be manipulated by some for political advantage. I don't want to name names, but it was becoming clearer and clearer day by day that the only way Trump's opponents in the Democrat party and the Lame Stream Media© (but I repeat myself) were going to defeat him is if the economy crashed. And voila, here we are.


Compare and contrast the response to the H1N1 epidemic in 2009 which killed 10's of thousands in America and afflicted millions more. Obama waited 6 MONTHS before declaring an emergency, during which time over 1,000 died and hundreds of thousands more were infected.

Just a coincidence that Fauci is also a huge Hillary supporter.

https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2020/03/what_did_dr_fauci_have_to_say_in_2009_about_the_deadly_h1n1_pandemic.html

narciso said...

this is rizzotto tray Haberman, from the WikiLeaks,

The Cracker Emcee Refulgent said...

“He claimed the covid-19 virus was not nearly as bad as the 2009 swine flu during the Obama administration. Limbaugh spent three hours telling his Dittoheads to not take this seriously”

He may yet be proven right.
An inclination to worst case scenarios here seems to be coupled with a barely unstated desire to see bodies mounded just so they can say I told you so later on. I don’t know what’s going to happen but I certainly lean to the bago/Achilles camp. Just because panic is unseemly and, even if you’re feeling it, dignity used to mean doing your best to hide it.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Trump wants to save the economy, Fauci will want to "save lives."

That is probably how the media will put it. Trump the big bad orange Monopoly man. Fauci the glowing selfless saint.

However, why can't it be both. Save the economy AND save lives. It HAS TO BE BOTH. You need both of those things to have a stable world and to have a world actually worth living in.

In a crisis, you need to have a team of specialist. Each person brings their own strength to the team and blends their various expertise at the right time.

The media should be hung up and dried out to save us all. That was literal BTW.

Michael said...

It should be obvious that there will be tension between the president and physicians advising on the best way to stop the spread of the virus. A doctor’s advice does not take one iotas of interest in the economy or the impact of its collapse on the public.

GatorNavy said...

Dr. Fauci is an administrator of a huge and bloated bureaucracy filled to the brim with MD’s, PhD’s and MD/PhD’s with egos larger than Trump or Schumer. That said, he probably does have a strong whip hand to keep those medical professionals in line. However, the difficulty lies in the fact that Trump isn’t a swamp dweller unlike all of the Bushes, Clintons and Obama minions, who hung on his every word. Clearly, Trump does not. This is a angle that the media is trying to exploit to make Trump look bad. This opinion piece is more of the same and rather puerile

Browndog said...

Fauci tailors his rhetoric to his audience. That's how I know he's not a good faith actor.

Fox Business: Trump is doing great, no complaints.

MSNBC:Sure, I'd like to make him shut up, but I can't.

Michael K said...

He will have directly caused the death of many of his listeners.

Rush Limbaugh is the man Donald Trump recently bestowed the Medal of Freedom.


I see we have another left wing troll.

Michael K said...

GatorNavy said...
Dr. Fauci is an administrator of a huge and bloated bureaucracy filled to the brim with MD’s, PhD’s and MD/PhD’s with egos larger than Trump or Schumer.


Boy is that true ! And all Democrats. I have never met a public health doc who was not a Democrat.

Mike (MJB Wolf) said...

Rush was on fire about the Great Panic of 2020 but he never counseled against the social distancing. He warned against tanking the economy with an overreaction. How many deaths will follow if the Democrats succeed in triggering another Depression? Cost-benefit analysis has been in very short supply the last two months. We are in uncharted waters here economically and NOBODY KNOWS how bad this will hurt in the long run.

I do NOT trust the public health people in charge because they have exaggerated the virility and transmission rates, they have exaggerated the propaganda out of China, and these are the SANE OEOPLE who advised Obama to do nothing in the face of Swine Flu. Until I can understand their inexplicable actions I will not put trust in them. Thank God Trump is in charge not the Deep State.

MayBee said...

The media wants there to be a rift between Fauci and Trump. They wantitwantitwantit. Much like they wanted Melania to leave Trump. (remember that?????)
They don't want it for the good of the nation. They want someone they like to hate Trump.

Did you see all the questions yesterday about Trump checking with Fauici before he opens the country back up for business? As I Fauci is in charge of the whole country now.

Lucien said...

Perhaps if this were a real war, and Dr. Fauci were General Fauci, the primacy of the President (who people actually voted for) over the “military expert” in matters of the national interest would be more clear.

Birkel said...

Trump avoids pain when the pain exceeds the pleasure? This is news?

Howard said...

DBQ is making too much sense. I'm sure the president will take that approach because it's a win-win and makes him look like a hero two more people. The key is to figure out how to have closer social distancing for commerce purposes that still controls viral aerosol and hand to mouth transference.

Of course I'm still praying that Achilles is absolutely right about his high temperature virus kill theory

narciso said...

to start a panic, ypu need to strip out all context, from the news, fill it with rumor and innuendo, everything that is 'breaking news' is often broken, misinterpretation, omission and out right falsehood,

this is Haberman's wheelwell,

Mike (MJB Wolf) said...

SANE OEOPLE should be SAME PEOPLE above but most will get the context.

Howard said...

Just FYI it is you people that are stirring up the economic panic that is reached the president's attention. Fear and loathing are idiotic Masters

narciso said...

for our passive aggressive, Charlie martin is a data analyst, who worked with certain agencies in the past, and know their self preservation instincts, hoyt grew up in Portugal, one of those peoples republics from the 70s,

rcocean said...

Is there any reason to believe this? She knows nothing about the White HOuse, and has constantly written incorrect stories based on "sources familiar with the situation".
Halbermann pushed the Fake Trump-Russia story for 2 years. This current story is just her attempt to attack Trump - again - by showing him as the "bad Boss" who can't bear dissenting opinions. And to push the narrative that "Reasonable Doctor tries to talk sense to Crazy Orange Man."

BTW, Trump HAS been let down by his subordinates. Many of them have been disloyal, or made it clear they were more interesting in pushing their own agendas then pushing his policies. The second any legal problem arises they rush off to some lawyer and ask how they can avoid any legal jeopardy, or they leak to the Press to make themselves look good at Trump's expense.

narciso said...

a middle course >

Jersey Fled said...

Dr. Fauci did an interview on Chris Stigall's radio show this morning in Philadelphia and was quite complimentary to President Trump.

He described Trump as decisive and willing to listen to all sides of an arguement. He said that Trump has never overriden him on an issue that Fauci felt strongly about.

As to why he was not present at certain briefings, Fauci said that he has two jobs and sometimes needs to be at the NIH. For that reason he will sometimes be at the briefings and sometimes not.

He described his role as being to provide the viewpoint of the medical community, and nothing more. Other experts are there to advise Trump on economic issues. He describes Trump as having the "awsome" responsibility of balancing the two.

As to chloroquine, he said that the evidence so far is anecdotal and needs to be confirmed by formal clinical trials. But asked if as an individual doctor he would prescribe chloroquine for a patient who requested it, he said that he certainly would.

Dave Begley said...

Excellent point DBQ.

America didn't elect Fauci President. Trump listens to many people and, as he said yesterday, processes it in his computer (pointed to his brain).

As Jack Black said it "School of Rock," this crisis will "test your head, and your mind and your brain, too."

Mark said...

why can't it be both. Save the economy AND save lives. It HAS TO BE BOTH. You need both of those things to have a stable world and to have a world actually worth living in

You know who agrees? Anthony Fauci.

DavidUW said...

Has anyone asked Fauci why this justifies a lockdown but the swine flu didn’t? Just curious. Would like to see a link to his answers if I missed it

iowan2 said...

Trump wants to save the economy, Fauci will want to "save lives."

Trade offs. Decisions are trade offs. More lives could be saved, bigger negative affects to the economy. ie paychecks. Like all of science there is a very scientific law of diminishing returns. It means that the cost to push down the death rated is not worth the price paid. President Trump may not be able to explain it like a college Professor. But the man has 5 decades of real life experiencing learning exactly what it is and how important it is to balance.

Mark said...

"It's a delicate balancing act that the president is trying to do," says Fauci. Trump has to consider a number of factors, he says.

narciso said...

the bigger picture remember the times covered up the holomodor,

Mark O said...

Another unsourced opinion piece presented as news. Maggie lost all credibility years ago for those who care about such things.

Mike (MJB Wolf) said...

Howard please tell us exactly how much stress the economy can take. I mean you’re obviously smarter than the Fed which ran a “worst case scenario” stress test on banks last year and the current work stoppage has created almost the exact same conditions for bond returns, DJI, and other indicators. This is new territory and it is not scaremongering to say it has created uncertainty. What is your cost-benefit analysis on virus panic vs economic panic?

You won’t answer. You can’t. You’re a flamethrower with no good suggestions. I say let’s get back to work before we break this thing beyond repair.

Ken B said...

Narcisco
There is nothing passive about my “aggression”. I laid into both of them on instapundit, and wrote Glenn asking him for a disavowal of their twaddle. I don’t care what their backgrounds are, they were pushing unscientific nonsense and deserve to be criticized. Like our covidiots here, whom I have not been passive attacking either.

h said...

Fauci was interviewed on local DC radio (WMAL) and he made two comments relevant to this story. One, that he was fed up with reporters always trying to create the illusion of a difference of opinion between Trump and Fauci. Two that his advice to Trump was based solely on the objective of saving lives, with no consideration whatsoever about the economic impact, and that he (Fauci) recognized that it was absolutely appropriate for Trump to take economic considerations into account, which (Fauci implied but did not say) could cause Trump to reject Fauci's advised which was aimed only at loss of life.

Ken B said...

DavidUW
I am not convinced your question about swine flu is in good faith. I answered it on last night's cafe. And passim. As have others. And google is still running. In short, we had a vaccine quickly. One commenter here was astounded that having a vaccine would make that much difference, but I assume you can see the importance of it.

narciso said...

is it a coincidence, the same vectors of the Russia hoax, yes I mean it in epidemiological terms, pushed this, chait, Goldberg, their opposite numbers at the post,

Nonapod said...

Since this writer is evidently an expert mind reader, I'm going to engage in a little mind reading too: Referring to Trump as "Mr. Trump" rather than "The President" or just "Trump" reads as needlessly petty and purile for some reason.

Ken B said...

Jersey Fled
Thanks for that summary on Fauci. Amazing to see the Trumpkin denialists go after him when he has been so forthright in praising Trump.

narciso said...

why because you say so, you know how much damage this panic, has done to the lives of million, a 30% drop in equities, requires 60% to return to point a, how much strain on the supply chain, how many businesses that may not recover, one has to do an almost Solomonic balancing act,

narciso said...

this is an exercise in conditioning scarcity, mob rule, by overwhelming the system, and someone made out like a bandit, scooping up shares the way we saw in post soviet Russia!

Matt Sablan said...

Well, during the Swine Flu, Obama also didn't get hobbled by the FDA and WHO, though the CDC did bungle the Ebola response. Trump's administration also was having to operate without a full stock of emergency supplies because Obama forgot to refill before leaving office.

So, in part, the Swine Flu had some mitigating circumstances, and also, in part, that the bureaucracy just happened to screw up again.

stevew said...

A person that agrees with whatever you say or think is not properly called an Advisor.

MayBee said...

Remember when the one thing we were supposed to know about Trump was that he took on the opinion of the last person he talked to?

Mike (MJB Wolf) said...

Ken B still spreading disinformation.

https://www.cdc.gov/h1n1flu/vaccination/general.htm

WHO declared H1N1 a pandemic in April. Obama declared a national emergency SIX MONTHS LATER in October 2009, by which time a vaccine was in place, although 4000 Americans already were dead from it and ultimately over 17,000 died in the year from April 2009 to April 2010. There is no metric for H1N1 that shows a better response than our current one.

Calypso Facto said...

Fauci, on the media's constant attempt to create drama where none exists and drive a wedge between him and Trump: ""I think there's this issue of trying to separate the two of us," he said. "There isn't fundamentally a difference there.""

chuck said...

My impression was that Fauci was exhausted and having trouble keeping his eyes open. The guy is 79 and dealing with a crisis.

jaydub said...

"I see we have another left wing troll."

More probable he's a LLR that was banned here and had to find a new avatar. If not, he's the LLR's brother.

MayBee said...

How much of an epidemic can it really be if the same media that's always out to get Trump has the luxury of using this to try to get Trump?

Calypso Facto said...

Now Fauci is taking up the Althouse condemnation in dealing with the media: You're not being HELPFUL!

"Dr. Anthony Fauci slammed the media for spinning a narrative that he was butting heads with President Trump over the country’s coronavirus response, calling it “really unfortunate” and “not helpful” that there are stories “pitting” him against the president.

“I would wish that that would stop, because we have a much bigger problem here than trying to point out differences,” Fauci told WMAL’s Mornings on the Mall on Tuesday. “Really, fundamentally at the core, when you look at things, there are not differences.”"

Mary E. Glynn said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
AllenS said...

Ken B, perhaps you could comment on issues involving Canada. On blogs from Canada.

Birkel said...

Swine Flu -- almost 20,000 deaths on 300,000 hospitalizations, and 60,000,000 infections

The country is very unlikely to see those numbers this time.

Trump is going to win re-election despite the best efforts of many to tank the economy.
Nancy Pelosi looks altogether terrible in her current stance.
Her daughter wishes she could murder Republicans.

Kevin said...

Our media is really struggling with this "we really just need information we can use to save lives" environment.

They are not built for it, and they show no interest in adapting.

narciso said...

We could talk how trudeau exported all his surgical equipment to china.

Breezy said...

Haberman is one of those jr high gossips who made up stories in order to cause trouble amongst those referenced in the stories or their friends. She is a nasty piece of work who never grew the hell up.

Sam L. said...

As I've said many, MANY times before, I despise, detest, and distrust the NYT (the WaPoo, too).

mccullough said...

Another Fake News story

hombre said...

Fauci is not always complimentary to Trump, but his recurring theme has been that the media spins against Trump and that Trump listens to him and other experts.

Haberman is one of the worst, using make believe sources to support her wishful TDS thinking.

As somebody else said, Fauci’s job is to save lives. Trump’s job is to save lives and the economy. It would be helpful if seditionists like Haberman didn’t try to exploit that difference to the detriment of the country.

Howard said...

Mike mjbwolf: I have no idea but I am certain president Trump has an economic task force made up of a public-private partnership of all of the most powerful banksters from around the world who're going to finger it out. I'm sure you have no idea either. We have to rely on the advice from experts who have made it their life work to study such subjects.

hombre said...

Howard said: “Of course I'm still praying that Achilles is absolutely right about his high temperature virus kill theory.”

Praying? Really?

Birkel said...

"...banksters..."
Because nothing says serious like juvenile name calling.

I hope the experts finger Howard.

Birkel said...

Viruses always - ALWAYS - have a preferred range of conditions under which they do best. Temperature always matters, but sometimes the necessary temperature is outside any helpful range. We do not know the range in which this virus thrives and fails.

rcocean said...

Fauci was interviewed on local DC radio (WMAL) and he made two comments relevant to this story. One, that he was fed up with reporters always trying to create the illusion of a difference of opinion between Trump and Fauci. Two that his advice to Trump was based solely on the objective of saving lives, with no consideration whatsoever about the economic impact, and that he (Fauci) recognized that it was absolutely appropriate for Trump to take economic considerations into account, which (Fauci implied but did not say) could cause Trump to reject Fauci's advised which was aimed only at loss of life.

That's exactly what the good doctor should be doing. Giving Trump advice from a MEDICAL point of view. It the President's job to balance the economic vs. health risks.

rcocean said...

"As to chloroquine, he said that the evidence so far is anecdotal and needs to be confirmed by formal clinical trials. But asked if as an individual doctor he would prescribe chloroquine for a patient who requested it, he said that he certainly would."

Obviously. While he can't recommend it without a trial, there's nothing to stop patients and doctors on their own trying it out. Basically, they'll be our real life guinea pigs.

William said...

I like Fauci. Cuomo too. Nonetheless, I intend to vote for Trump...My opinion of Pelosi and DeBlasio has not improved during the current crisis.

rcocean said...

We moved the Speed limit from 55 MPH to 65 MPH, despite knowing that thousands would die. We're in the process of legalizing Marijuana, which will kill thousands. Mayor Pete (without contradiction from Biden) proposed legalizing Heroin and Cocaine. Which would kill thousands. I can remember when "Gay Leftists" fought against closing the bathhouses during the AIDS epidemic, a position that cost many lives.

We make Trade-offs all the time and allow people to die.

Mike (MJB Wolf) said...

Nobody knows how this will turn out because we have never “paused” a modern first-world economy, and our first experiment is with the largest one in history, with epically poor leadership the world over and the worst collection of “experts” ever sprinkled throughout our government. Uncharted waters, as I’ve pointed out already. May God help us keep our heads while so many others panic!

Birkel said...

rcocean,
We do not "allow people to die" as if we had the power to stop it.

Lewis Wetzel said...

I knew it was an anti-Trump piece after reading the first four sentences. How? It took the position that what Trump was doing was a cynical political operation. Anti-Trump news outlets never take this position when they write about politicians that they support.

mtrobertslaw said...

The idea to use an 80 year old vaccine against the corona-virus originated with an obscure doctor in France. It is human nature that there is bound to be resentment of this by large institutions that have humongous budgets and whose mission is to study public health issues.

h said...

rocean said: "that's exactly what a doctor should do." That was my reaction exactly. It does make me dis-respect Haberman and other journalists who think it is cute or funny or something to try to stir up disagreement.

Left Bank of the Charles said...

We'll know that Trump feels he's been slighted when he starts calling it the Fauci flu.

Meade said...

"It doesn't matter if you're in a state that has no cases or one case. You have to start taking seriously what you can do now for if and when the infections will come — and they will come, sorry to say, sad to say, they will — but when you're dealing with an infectious disease, you know, you always have that metaphor that people talk about. That Wayne Gretzky, he doesn't go where the puck is, he's going where the puck is going to be. Well, we want to be where the infection is going to be, as well as where it is."
— Dr. Anthony Fauci

If we're being fair, we'll have to acknowledge that President Trump has 2 pucks, the future location of which, he is tasked with being in the Wayne Gretzky position: the infection puck, and the economy puck. Failure at being there for either will lead to massive suffering by millions.

iowan2 said...

We have to rely on the advice from experts who have made it their life work to study such subjects.

Which experts? Govt bureaucrats have their opinions colored by their personal interests. Lots of time its turf grabbing time. Worst case scenerios, increase staff, create entire new departments, and grow budgets. All with no down size risk. listen to experts, at the same time demanding differential diagnosis.

rcocean said...

"We do not "allow people to die" as if we had the power to stop it."

And whoosh, the whole point goes over his head. Of course it doesn't matter. Its just the intertubes.

rcocean said...

I'm feeling puckish today, for some reason.

narciso said...

I think evers will have more local impact, on the latter point, just like boris Johnson capricious lockdown,

Francisco D said...

If we're being fair, we'll have to acknowledge that President Trump has 2 pucks, the future location of which, he is tasked with being in the Wayne Gretzky position: the infection puck, and the economy puck. Failure at being there for either will lead to massive suffering by millions.

Nicely stated, Meade.

Birkel said...

Over my head? Hardly.

But we do not control nearly as much as we might like.
And that was my point, plain as day.

My making a point does not mean I didn't get yours.
I am arguing against hubris.

walter said...

Howard said...The key is to figure out how to have closer social distancing for commerce purposes that still controls viral aerosol and hand to mouth transference.
--
Gotcha covered. And it's FUN! (Please enter via Althouse porthole)
Storm Attire

sunsong said...

Dr Fauci tells the truth as he, as a scientist, understands it.

donald lies for his own, personal benefit.

Leora said...

This is clearly the most important story of the day. Pseudo-Kremlinology is considerably more interesting and important than anything else going on.

Ken B said...

Mike
Where did I say h1n1 was well handled? The question was, why no huge lockdown. The answer is, we had a vaccine. In your comment you concede we had a vaccine.
A gigantic lockdown is a desperate and destructive measure taken only if there is no reasonable alternative. Vaccination is a reasonable alternative.

Birkel said...

sunsong is stupid.

We maximize what we measure.
Dr Fauci is measuring avoided deaths and infections.
That is not the only important outcome.

Trump is measuring that, economic activity, and political outcomes.
Meade's puck metaphor captures the spirit of the matter.

(But 11mm was always a fever dream.)

Ken B said...

Nicely put Meade.

Birkel said...

We had a vaccine after nearly a year.
We had a vaccine about a year later and with 60 million infected, 300 thousand hospitalized, and almost 20 thousand dead.

In another 10 years we will be able to say we had a vaccine.
Verb tense is tricky when you're pushing a stupid agenda.

walter said...

To stop the puck, close the rink.
Wayne learns to code.

walter said...

(or waits for next guvmint check)

Meade said...

from wikipedia: Gretzky explains his style of play further:

People think that to be a good player you have to pick the puck up, deke around ninety-three guys and take this ungodly slap shot. No. Let the puck do all the moving and you get yourself in the right place. I don't care if you're Carl Lewis, you can't outskate that little black thing. Just move the puck: give it up, get it back, give it up. It's like Larry Bird. The hardest work he does is getting open. The jumpshot is cake. That's all hockey is: open ice. That's my whole strategy: Find Open Ice. Chicago coach Mike Keenan said it best: "There's a spot on the ice that's no-man's land, and all the good goal scorers find it." It's a piece of frozen real estate that's just in between the defense and the forward.

Continuing with Dr. Fauci's metaphor: President Trump's instinct to apply the travel restrictions which began 5:00 p.m., Eastern Standard Time; Sunday, February the 2nd, was a Gretsky level finding of Open Ice.

Birkel said...

Meade:
And Trump's running to the front of the PANIC ELEVENTY parade was the same in the political sphere. He saw where public opinion was going and got there first.

Now he is moving to the open ice as normal people realize the worst case projections for infections and deaths were wildly wrong and that ruining the economy is a terrible idea.

DavidUW said...

Ken B,
clearly you're not interested in actually reading my question.

1) I asked if Fauci was ever asked (by news media presumably or any interviewer) to explain the differences in HIS response to the 2 pandemics, as he was in the prior administration during that pandemic.

2) as covered by others, there was no swine flu vaccine at the start of that pandemic, and there wasn't one for quite some time into it. And that's not what I asked.

How did he "know" early on during swine flu that it wasn't going to be Spanish Flu, the sequel? Did he? Was he just guessing? Was he unwilling to recommend a quarantine then? Why?

Why does he think this one is so much more dangerous? is it just because we don't really know the extent of the spread? the true mortality rate?

Birkel said...

DavidUW,
It could be the chemical structure of the virus that causes the alarm. It could be an publicly unacknowledged understanding that WuFlu was engineered and not naturally occurring.

I wish we knew. But the explanation has not been forthcoming.

wholelottasplainin' said...

Here's what Rush Limbaugh actually said on March 12:

https://www.rushlimbaugh.com/videos/43265/97689/#!/43265/97689/Remember-the-Swine-Flu-Panic-of-2009-No,-You-Don%E2%80%99t

Judge for yourself whether he was downplaying the virus, or whether he was commenting on the political and media hysteria/opportunism over it.

Seems clear to me that it was the latter.

wholelottasplainin' said...

Birkel said...
DavidUW,
It could be the chemical structure of the virus that causes the alarm. It could be an publicly unacknowledged understanding that WuFlu was engineered and not naturally occurring.

I wish we knew. But the explanation has not been forthcoming.
******************

Here's one:

"A new analysis of SARS-CoV-2 may finally put that latter idea to bed. A group of researchers compared the genome of this novel coronavirus with the seven other coronaviruses known to infect humans: SARS, MERS and SARS-CoV-2, which can cause severe disease; along with HKU1, NL63, OC43 and 229E, which typically cause just mild symptoms, the researchers wrote March 17 in the journal Nature Medicine.

"Our analyses clearly show that SARS-CoV-2 is not a laboratory construct or a purposefully manipulated virus," they write in the journal article."

https://www.foxnews.com/science/the-coronavirus-did-not-escape-from-a-lab-heres-how-we-know

walter said...

"Here's why: SARS-CoV-2 is very closely related to the virus that causes severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS), which fanned across the globe nearly 20 years ago. Scientists have studied how SARS-CoV differs from SARS-CoV-2 — with several key letter changes in the genetic code. Yet in computer simulations, the mutations in SARS-CoV-2 don't seem to work very well at helping the virus bind to human cells. If scientists had deliberately engineered this virus, they wouldn't have chosen mutations that computer models suggest won't work. But it turns out, nature is smarter than scientists, and the novel coronavirus found a way to mutate that was better — and completely different— from anything scientists could have created, the study found.

Another nail in the "escaped from evil lab" theory? The overall molecular structure of this virus is distinct from the known coronaviruses and instead most closely resembles viruses found in bats and pangolins that had been little studied and never known to cause humans any harm.

"If someone were seeking to engineer a new coronavirus as a pathogen, they would have constructed it from the backbone of a virus known to cause illness," according to a statement from Scripps.

Where did the virus come from? The research group came up with two possible scenarios for the origin of SARS-CoV-2 in humans. One scenario follows the origin stories for a few other recent coronaviruses that have wreaked havoc in human populations. In that scenario, we contracted the virus directly from an animal — civets in the case of SARS and camels in the case of Middle East respiratory syndrome (MERS). In the case of SARS-CoV-2, the researchers suggest that animal was a bat, which transmitted the virus to another intermediate animal (possibly a pangolin, some scientists have said) that brought the virus to humans."

Sorry, Coop'.

Birkel said...

whole lotta:

Do you know the incentives for NOT blaming the Chinese for starting a pandemic on purpose?
Do we want to avoid WWIII?

Nichevo said...


Blogger Ken B said...
Mike
Where did I say h1n1 was well handled? The question was, why no huge lockdown. The answer is, we had a vaccine. In your comment you concede we had a vaccine.
A gigantic lockdown is a desperate and destructive measure taken only if there is no reasonable alternative. Vaccination is a reasonable alternative.

...

3/24/20, 12:22 PM
Blogger Birkel said...
We had a vaccine after nearly a year.
We had a vaccine about a year later and with 60 million infected, 300 thousand hospitalized, and almost 20 thousand dead.



Ken B,


By your slights at those who are not professional epidemiologists, I take it you are a professional epidemiologist. Feel free to correct me.

You say the diff here was the vaccine. In theory, yes, of course, vaccines are great. If you have the vaccine before exposure, you won't get sick and presumably won't infect others. If you vaccinate all 300-odd million Americans, and all 30-odd million Canadians, 110-odd million Mexicans, then nobody in North America will get sick. Herd immunity means for practical purposes that you don't have to vaccinate 100%, but some substantial fraction, then spread is interrupted enough to let the outbreak die out. Right?


But in the case of 2009, when and how was the vaccine applied? Did it exist beforehand? I don't remember being vaccinated.

So, not to write a book, please explain the significance of the vaccine in the case of 2009. What was done, what did it accomplish.

wholelottasplainin' said...

Birkel said...
whole lotta:

Do you know the incentives for NOT blaming the Chinese for starting a pandemic on purpose?
Do we want to avoid WWIII?
*********************************

Oh ferchrissake. Political enuresis.

Essentially you are arguing that the scientists are making excuses so as to avoid accusing China of purposefully waging war on its own citizens, when it had no means of controlling the situation besides locking up all of Wuhan and Hubei province..

Walter offers more reasons why CD-19 is a natural mutation.

Occam's Razor applies here.

Nichevo said...


Blogger Birkel said...
whole lotta:

Do you know the incentives for NOT blaming the Chinese for starting a pandemic on purpose?
Do we want to avoid WWIII?




You confuse me-which side of this are you on? Are you the one afraid of the Chinese, or is it whole, or Fox?

Mike (MJB Wolf) said...

Ken B is not making the point that he thinks he is making. “We” didn’t have a vaccine 65 days into H1N1 any more than “we” have one now. The question is why every other public health response has been so drastic AT THE SAME POINT in the pandemic. Ken thinks having a vaccine after 17,500 dead is good excuse to halt our economy and risk depression. I don’t. It’s like anti-persuasive to me. What exactly did that vaccine prevent, Ken?

Birkel said...

Nichevo,
I do not believe that four sequences in the WuFlu managed to migrate naturally from HIV to the WuFlu.

Industrial accident is just as good an explanation as purposefully releasing a pandemic. Reckless disregard can be intentional, after all. If one disregards the natural and inevitable consequences of one's actions, that is intent.

Nichevo said...

Industrial accident is just as good an explanation as purposefully releasing a pandemic. Reckless disregard can be intentional, after all. If one disregards the natural and inevitable consequences of one's actions, that is intent.



Concur. Actually, accident is better explanation, not just as good. Reckless overestimation by the Chinese of their competence to play at operating a BSL-4 facility. They are liable for enormous damages even without a desire to kill.

Nichevo said...

accusing China of purposefully waging war on its own citizens, when it had no means of controlling the situation besides locking up all of Wuhan and Hubei province.


China has good reasons to kill its own people. Especially useless eaters first.

Leora said...

Those asking about the difference between Swine Flu and Coronavirus public health advice:
Swine Flu is contagious while the patient is symptomatic. Coronavirus is apparently contagious when the patient is asymptomatic. Stay home if you are sick is adequate for the first but not the second.

I hope we will soon be switching to stay home if you are at high risk or if you have had contact with a confirmed case. We need some time to ramp up the testing so this can work.

Birkel said...

Third world countries' leaders do not value human life as highly as do Americans.

The Cracker Emcee Refulgent said...

"Third world countries' leaders do not value human life as highly as do Americans."

Human votes. Gesundheit.

Gospace said...

rcocean said...
We moved the Speed limit from 55 MPH to 65 MPH, despite knowing that thousands would die


That's what the nanny staters said would happen. It didn't happen. Reduced speed differential between vehicles. reduced accidents. And in some areas out west I drove last year, speed limits were 80 MPH.

Cars are safer now than when the speed limit was reduced to 55. People survive in accidents that being in 1960 vehicles would have killed them.

Safety is an elusive thing. I can drive safely at 80 MPH. On clear dry roads. If deer jumps in front of the car, my chances of avoiding it are lessened. Every deer hit by my family members, including me, has been at 55 or less. Lot more deer on local roads than interstates.

Someone travelling at a "safe speed" on a crowded interstate is causing accidents ½ mile or more behind them, as traffic comes to a sudden stop because of the blockade the "safe speed" traveler has created. Especially if they're traveling that safe speed in the middle or left lane.

Kirk Parker said...

"... accusing China of purposefully waging war on its own citizens..."

It's not exactly the case that they have never done so before.

rcocean said...

"The Insurance Institute for Highway Safety declared that "each 5 mph increase in the maximum speed limit resulted in a 4 percent increase in fatalities. The increase on Interstates and freeways... was 8 percent. Comparing the annual number of fatalities in the 41 states [studied] with the number that would have been expected if each state's maximum speed limit had remained unchanged since 1993, [we] arrived at the estimate of 33,000 additional fatalities over the 20-year period [from 1993 to 2013]."

This is just common sense. We'd have more accidents and more fatal ones if the speed limit were 100 MPH, and we'd have far less if it was 20 MPH. Speed kills.

wholelottasplainin' said...

Nichevo said...
accusing China of purposefully waging war on its own citizens, when it had no means of controlling the situation besides locking up all of Wuhan and Hubei province.


China has good reasons to kill its own people. Especially useless eaters first.
*****************

If you say so!!!

Never mind that Wuhan is a huge industrial city, often referred to as the "Chicago of China", filled with educated and skilled workers---hardly "useless eaters". Killing its people makes no sense at all, since the city's a major engine in China's economy.

And never mind that the virus doesn't know how to distinguish the workers from the useless.

I swear you get your crude stereotypical thoughts from old Fu Man Chu movies.

wholelottasplainin' said...

rcocean said...
"The Insurance Institute for Highway Safety declared that "each 5 mph increase in the maximum speed limit resulted in a 4 percent increase in fatalities. The increase on Interstates and freeways... was 8 percent. Comparing the annual number of fatalities in the 41 states [studied] with the number that would have been expected if each state's maximum speed limit had remained unchanged since 1993, [we] arrived at the estimate of 33,000 additional fatalities over the 20-year period [from 1993 to 2013]."

This is just common sense. We'd have more accidents and more fatal ones if the speed limit were 100 MPH, and we'd have far less if it was 20 MPH. Speed kills.
*****************

Here are the official stats for auto fatalities.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_fatality_rate_in_U.S._by_year

Despite the return to 65 mph, the rates have been **falling** for years, with declines in 10 out of the past 15 years.

In fact, the rate is roughly one-half what it was when Nixon imposed the 55 mph rule.


I suppose you will argue that they would have fallen more if we had maintained the temporary 55 mph limit. If so pls read this:

https://www.cato.org/publications/policy-analysis/speed-doesnt-kill-repeal-55mph-speed-limit

Nichevo said...

wholelottasplainin' said...
Nichevo said...
accusing China of purposefully waging war on its own citizens, when it had no means of controlling the situation besides locking up all of Wuhan and Hubei province.


China has good reasons to kill its own people. Especially useless eaters first.
*****************

If you say so!!!

Never mind that Wuhan is a huge industrial city, often referred to as the "Chicago of China", filled with educated and skilled workers---hardly "useless eaters". Killing its people makes no sense at all, since the city's a major engine in China's economy.

And never mind that the virus doesn't know how to distinguish the workers from the useless.

I swear you get your crude stereotypical thoughts from old Fu Man Chu movies.
3/24/20, 4:42 PM



Per Meade, I'm trying to be nice. But I have little regard for your comment. It makes me question your motivations.


1) If you think that I think that China released the virus into Wuhan in order that it stay in Wuhan and kill people there and only there, you're even stupider than you think I am. It would clearly spread through China. Feature not bug.

2) As opposed to the Spanish flu and hantavirus, which apparently are paradoxically most deadly to the young and fit, COVID seems like a fairly reliable grandpa killer. Nothing's perfect, but that fits Chinese notions of quality control.

3) China demographically missed the boat. They will get old before they get rich. And not enough children even with lifting the one-child policy. Killing oldsters, and hopefully encouraging the grieving survivors to breed more, would be right in their wheelhouse.

4) China is a communist country which has delighted in killing its own people. Imperial China before Mao was also nothing loth to chop heads. To have an invisible hatchetman to do their dirty work for them might seem ideal.

Your violent revulsion to the notion that commies gonna commie makes me wonder about you. But it's your turn.

daskol said...

Nichevo that’s a very dim view of the Chinese, but a very interesting premise for a dystopian/alt history type story.

narciso said...

Then there are the statements of former defense minister chi haotian. That ive highlighted before.

Nichevo said...

Daskol, China will be great, when China will be free. And not before.

wholelottasplainin' said...

Nichevo said:
Per Meade, I'm trying to be nice. But I have little regard for your comment. It makes me question your motivations.


1) If you think that I think that China released the virus into Wuhan in order that it stay in Wuhan and kill people there and only there, you're even stupider than you think I am. It would clearly spread through China. Feature not bug.

>>>>I note for the record that you did not bother to address the "useless eaters" issue, or the fact that the virus does not distinguish between its victims based upon their "usefulness". That's telling, if not downright dispositive, that your claim was baseless. Strike One.

>>>In point of fact, China HAS largely contained the outbreak, with 96% of the deaths being in Hubei province. So your huffing about an uncontrolled spread being a "feature, not a bug" is equally baseless.

https://www.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6

2) As opposed to the Spanish flu and hantavirus, which apparently are paradoxically most deadly to the young and fit, COVID seems like a fairly reliable grandpa killer. Nothing's perfect, but that fits Chinese notions of quality control.

>>>> Oh really? And how did the Chicoms know in advance, w/o epidemiological evidence, that the virus would kill more elderly than the "useful" young people?

3) China demographically missed the boat. They will get old before they get rich. And not enough children even with lifting the one-child policy. Killing oldsters, and hopefully encouraging the grieving survivors to breed more, would be right in their wheelhouse.

>>>> Sheer speculation on your part, and one involving a total break of Chinese traditions of venerating the elderly, which goes all the way back to Confucius.

4) China is a communist country which has delighted in killing its own people.

>>>>Delighted? Are you actually claiming that the tremendous violence and suffering of the Chinese revolution were **pleasing** to the leadership? Produce the evidence.

Imperial China before Mao was also nothing loth to chop heads. To have an invisible hatchetman to do their dirty work for them might seem ideal.

>>>So now you've wandered away from killing the old folks to chopping off heads, thence to "invisible hatchetmen" to do it.

>>>>I say again: S N O R T

Your violent revulsion to the notion that commies gonna commie makes me wonder about you. But it's your turn.

>>>>"violent revulsion"? Where did you get that idea? You're imputing thoughts and emotions to me that I have not expressed. I have merely pointed out that your thesis---that China unleashed this plague on their citizenry in order to kill off the old all around their country---a huge crock of night soil.

Nichevo said...

>>>>I note for the record that you did not bother to address the "useless eaters" issue, or the fact that the virus does not distinguish between its victims based upon their "usefulness". That's telling, if not downright dispositive, that your claim was baseless. Strike One.


Oh, IQ trouble. Old and frail = useless eaters.

You know, for the rest of it, I have better things to do, beddy bye time. Sorry to hurt your feelings, I didn't know you were Chinese.

Nichevo said...

The best evidence that you are a foreigner is that you are dead to metaphor.

Nichevo said...

Oh, and tell your master Winnie the Coronavirus Pooh that not just the US, but the world, is going to expropriate all Chinese assets abroad, to pay for this debacle. He should make his will because he's going to get what every Chinese tyrant who loses the Mandate of Heaven gets - the chop (perhaps not literally you dunce).