"Almost no one in my personal or professional world would 'earn' care if the United States were to come to a scenario like Italy. Not my 102-year-old client with brilliant blue eyes and ferocious curiosity who survived Auschwitz; not my friend who is a wickedly smart writer, activist, and wheelchair user currently recovering from major surgery; nor me, with my immune system that doesn’t work well, or works too hard, attacking my own tissues. In the United States, most of my disabled and sick friends believe we are racing to a similar situation as Italy.... The Nazis called chronically ill and disabled people 'useless eaters,' and killed us first.... As a disabled, Jewish, second-generation Holocaust survivor, the words 'useless eater' are practically in my DNA. I can taste the tang of them in my mouth as I read the news, in the bitterness of Italy’s policies, in this country’s callous health care, in affluent people refusing to listen to sick and disabled voices and stay home when they can afford to, in the dismissive internet comments that only the sick and old need to worry, so who cares?... Jewish mysticism holds that the letters of a Torah scroll are black fire on the white fire of the parchment. In this moment, we must find a way to make the spaces between us holy. In this pandemic it is the white fire that will hold our abundant love, our exquisite care, and our unwavering belief that each of our lives is worth saving."
From "My Life Is More ‘Disposable’ During This Pandemic/The ableism and ageism being unleashed is its own sort of pestilence" by Elliot Kukla (NYT).
137 comments:
Joe Biden’s health advisor says any lived years after 75 are stolen from the young, basically. Or that’s the long and short of it.
Article: "This virus is merciless. It travels through the young to attack the old; through the healthy to assault the chronically ill."
I'd call that "nature", not "ableism and ageism".
My first Pride parades were not joyful celebrations, but rageful protests as we demanded health care, medicine, witnessing.
Now we know what kind of person is speaking: irrational and irresponsible.
I certainly would not demand to occupy an ICU bed with the Wuhan virus if there were younger people who desperately needed it. But that's an individual decision and one that should never be imposed. Self-sacrifice, yes. State sponsored genocide, never.
Jesus, Professor. I know the self-absorption of the urban elite is limitless, but linking desperate medical triage to annuda Shoah is a stereotype of Jews that would be considered excessive by Stormfront standards. And yet there it is, plain as day in the NYT.
Maybe there are countries besides Israel that would treat 102-year old men as so holy that scarce medical resources need to be poured into them, but I can't imagine that the packs of illegal Muslim aliens in Italy would be terribly impressed by the notion.
It's called "triage", Rabbi. Italy isn't doing what Italy's doing because they're a bunch of Nazis who've lost their humanity. Good people get stuck with having to make ugly decisions.
I'm over 60. If viral push came to viral shove, I wouldn't be crying "age-ism" (or, ffs, invoking the Holocaust) if a decision was made to deny me a ventilator in favor of a 30 year old.
second-generation Holocaust survivor
Whut? No, your parents are Holocaust survivors. Being a "Holocaust survivor" is not like being black. It's not like your parents pass it on genetically.
Now, did the trauma that the survivors endured shape them in ways that were so fundamental that it affected how they raised their families, many times for the worse? That I can certainly believe, but that's a whole different ball game than surviving a Nazi concentration camp.
The rabbi's not a second-generation Holocaust survivor. He's an American, with everything an American life entails.
Kukla was a famous puppet.
Rabbi Kukla thinks like one.
In the category of "useless eaters," one is inclined to include people who earn a living dispensing worthless advice in the name of a Bronze Age tribal war god.
When you are, like I am,over 80 you have to understand that regardless of your health you are expendable. My only question: if I get triaged out what happens to the Medicare premiums I paid in all these years with two doctors visits and one blood panel yearly.
they have forgotten psalm 90 among other passages,
""Almost no one in my personal or professional world would 'earn' care if the United States were to come to a scenario like Italy. "
Yeah, it's important to look at what was happening in Italy, the 5 years before this "outbreak".
I see 68,000 excess flu deaths in Italy in the 5 winters before this "outbreak". Isee mostly elderly folks getting hit hard -- for the 5 winters before this "outbreak".
Do these folks not take the Flu vaccine?
He should tie an onion to his belt.
mock: I certainly would not demand to occupy an ICU bed with the Wuhan virus if there were younger people who desperately needed it. But that's an individual decision and one that should never be imposed.
This is a zero-sum game in which the old person would be imposing a decision on the younger person. (Who owns the place in the ICU, anyway?)
Medical personnel have to make that call all the time in emergency situations.
It's not like your parents pass it on genetically.
Skim the article: he falsely claims exactly that.
He should tie an onion to his belt.
Or leave a bowl of sauerkraut by his door to placate the Nazi hobgoblins who trouble his mind.
YoungH: "second-generation Holocaust survivor"
Whut? No, your parents are Holocaust survivors.
Oh lord, I read right over that. I swear, I thought the phrase "second-generation Holocaust survivor" was mockery made up by Stormfront types.
"In the United States, most of my disabled and sick friends believe we are racing to a similar situation as Italy...."
I'm sorry this person FEELS this way, but it is pure speculation. The US is not Italy.
Medical personnel have to make that call all the time in emergency situations.
Angle, if you noticed the rest of my post you will see that I was discussing state imposition, not medical. And I should think that many factors besides age would figure into medical decisions of this sort, not the least of which is patient viability.
This is a frustrating essay to read.
I'm all for trying not to expose the vulnerable to this virus. I grow weary of reading how it "only" kills people who were old and/or weakened anyway. People over 80 include my dad, my wife's dad, and several friends'. If any of them were to die of this, I would not say, Eh well, they had a good run.
By all means, let's protect those people if we can. But to make a link a link between medical triage and Nazi selections is just disgusting.
From an anonymous Italian doctor's article in Newsweek, "Young and Unafraid of the Coronavirus Pandemic? Good for You. Now Stop Killing People":
"In Milan, in Bergamo, in Padua, they are having to choose between intubating a 40-year-old with two kids, a 40-year old who is fit and healthy with no co-morbidities, and a 60-year-old with high blood pressure, because they don't have enough beds."
Hey, Rabbi - I'm happy for you that you've never had to make a choice like that. But don't liken doctors who have to the fucking Nazis. They're overwhelmed. We're trying not to get there precisely because we do care about the lives of people you think we've decided are expendable.
I've already seen plenty of folks, especially on conservative websites like The Federalist, questioning whether we should depress the economy of the country just to reduce the risk to Americans over 70 years of age.
From denouncing "the killing of the unborn" to denouncing euthanasia of the terminally ill, some conservatives are flirting with allowing older Americans to just take their chances in order to pump up those conservatives' 401(k) plans.
So much for the Christian reverence for life.
If you cared a lot about other Americans who might face financial ruin (with the possible damage to their families) from this financial downturn, you might have an argument.
But if you're worried about your own 401(k) plan, then let me put it this way:
Your own 401(k) plan isn't worth a single American life.
"each of our lives is worth saving"
A nice sentiment. But resources are scarce. Not every life is worth "saving" at any cost. Which is how we normally think about "saving lives," though America does tend to go overboard for privileged seniors and premature babies. Nor do we normally try to save "each of our lives"--we don't shut down to prevent tens of thousands of ordinary flu deaths, we don't prohibit young men and people over 65 from driving, and so on.
Taking precautions makes sense. Letting the virus infect basic rationality does not.
Like another rabbi said:
Grow old along with me!
The best is yet to be,
The last of life, for which the first was made:
Our times are in His hand
Who saith "A whole I planned,
Youth shows but half; trust God: see all, nor be afraid!''
What if the next virus, like the 1918 pandemic, attacks the young and healthy with more virulence than the old and frail?
That virus may also have started in China and been spread by Chinese laborers brought to Europe by the Allied powers. There's a story that it started in Kansas, but that's been disputed. It's hard to shake because the Kansas story has become a point of local pride in the state.
I'n getting the impression from some of the comments that young is supposed to be more valuable than old but no one has really explained why. Wouldn't it matter what kind of young(er) person we're talking about? What if he's a violent rapist or she's a child abuser? If we're going to start weighing out the relative value of everyone's life I don't see why age would be the determining factor. And what about old people who have money and can buy the kind of care they need or want. Who is going to tell Tom Hanks no? He can just buy what he needs, right? It seems what we're really talking about is killing off the poor old people, not just old people generally.
And this of course is if one buys that there are terribly scarce resources to begin with. Or that the resources that are available are being distributed wisely.
Sally327,
"If we're going to start weighing out the relative value of everyone's life I don't see why age would be the determining factor."
If I were in that position I would save everyone I could. If I had to start making hardhearted, cold-blooded choices – you can save only some – the consideration of who has more years in front of them is a legitimate one. It's not the only one, but it's not trivial.
I hate how that sounds, so, I'll go first. If my car's wrecked on the roadside and the EMTs can only save me or my kids in time, they'd better damn well save my kids, and let me die if someone has to. Doesn't mean I wouldn't prefer to live.
Angel Dyne It's called "triage", Rabbi. Italy isn't doing what Italy's doing because they're a bunch of Nazis who've lost their humanity. Good people get stuck with having to make ugly decisions.
Yes it is hard. In an emergency or pandemic, triage is important to provide the care need to those who have the best chance to survive. My dying father,( who I didn't get to see because of the virus lock downs), is 93. He has no chance of surviving his current illness and as such, medical care, other than pain mitigation is the only care he is getting. Last update was days left. Triage in real life. We understand this and accept this.
The danger comes when "triage" in the form of a single payer health system gets to decide based on ECONOMIC reasons who gets to live and who gets to let die. The old, because it just might cost too much? Downs Syndrome babies because who needs to have retarded individuals as a drag on society. Undesirable people who are handicapped, chronic welfare recipients who don't work or pay taxes, unacceptable ethnic types, religious heretics, political opponents?
The list of non medical survival reasons can be expanded exponentially.
You broke your arm and are young and so you get care. You broke your arm and are 70...so you suffer and die.
You think abortion is a bad thing? Wait until the government gets to make life and death decisions for everyone all the time based on a cost benefit analysis basis.
Who gets to make these decisions? What moral compass do they have.
It never occurred to me that I am a second generation holocaust liberator.
I don't know if this is someone extroverting their own experiences or if it is simply entirely disingenuous.
Right now, in Northern California, school districts are shut down, bars, restaurants, almost all of that is able to do so has shifted to online work and learning. Schools of higher learning are remote. Everything has shifted to a social distancing pattern for the foreseeable future. I was told my daughters school will likely be shifting to fully online for the rest of the year.
All because the elderly have a higher chance to become seriously ill and die if they catch this. The great majority of everyone else who catches it are fine.
Which means that all of society has basically closed off for the sake of the elderly and those prone to illness. That is mind-bogglingly, historically unprecedented, generous response, showing profound care for the most vulnerable among us.
But, if some people on the internet are saying we are maybe overdoing it, well, I guess all of society should cover itself in ashes and weep about the state of our souls.
"In the United States, most of my disabled and sick friends believe we are racing to a similar situation as Italy...."
People like to do what they are told to do.
What if he's a violent rapist or she's a child abuser?
What an absurd, jejune, godawful silly hypothetical. In general the young are more valuable than the elderly. (Face facts squarely Sally, you'll be more serene in your sunset years.) And the discussion is about generalities as is any question about public health. The public is a general term. Hypothetical exceptions are not germane.
If you desire to banter hypotheticals, Sally, suppose your violent rapist or child abuser is also a brilliant virologist who needs treatment to complete his brilliant cure for the disease? Do we condemn him and the rest of humanity to death and suffering for a saintly septuagenarian with COVID-19 pneumonia?
sinz52 said...
I've already seen plenty of folks, especially on conservative websites like The Federalist, questioning whether we should depress the economy of the country just to reduce the risk to Americans over 70 years of age.
People like this are just evil.
Callous? I'm Jewish myself, and I'm sorry the guy is sick, but please. This embarrasses me.
Italian health system has been rationing healthcare for years. The Italian doctors have much experience telling someone they are too old or too sick to get this treatment or that surgery.
How many articles has the good rabbi written denouncing socialised medicine? Is he OK with the English system of "limited clinical value" designations?
It never occurred to me that I am a second generation holocaust liberator.
How long does this multi-generational glory last? Can I get a Third-Generation Battle of the Atlantic campaign ribbon?
I take reasonable precautions in my life to (1) avoid infection and (2) prevent my spreading infection -- if I'm infectious. This is what everyone should be doing.
The author writes like he expect people to live down to his expectations, which are low. What a depressing way of living. I expect people to live up to my expectations, and they are high. Sometimes I'm disappointed, but I think it's a better mindset to be in.
Off-topic: Was happy to hear thunder earlier! Hello Spring! Happy Vernal Equinox everyone!
Almost sounds like he is saying "all lives matter" and we already know that's not true. If the woke triage team had to decide between black and white does the black get treatment first because of slavery/reparations? Things could really get nasty with this line of thought. Not a good idea.
I don't mind the idea that a hospital with limited resources would prioritize the patients with the best chance of survival. What bothers me is this idea that young people don't have to behave socially responsibly because old people have high mortality rates. They always have, so what's the difference now? The woke generation has to walk the talk? They talk about existential threats but that only applies to some abstract notion of humanity, not actual people.
What I'd like to see happen now is a public announcement that hospitals will not treat the young if they get sick with CV because they are ignoring social distancing and have higher survival rates. (If they are identified in photos of spring break crowds they are banned from hospital care.) That might shake things up a little.
Bah. Another unhelpful political screed in the NY Times.
According to the CDC mortality tables for 2011, the life expectancy at age 100 for non-Hispanic white males is 2.2 years. Thus, it is impossible to "save the life" of a 102 year old. One can hold off the inevitable, but only for a short time.
The life expectancy for a 70-year-old n_H white male is 14.2 years. You can't save his life either, but the expected benefit for this man is seven times as large.
People who notice this are, presumably, evil. I apologize for mentioning it.
The author writes,
"I already knew that for many of the doctors and policymakers that my health depends on, that my transgender, fat, disabled body is simply worth less than others’ bodies. This is even more true for my black, brown, poor, disabled and ill friends."
I won't speak for the policymakers, but I suspect this is a disgusting libel of the doctors.
The NY Times is trash. As is this essay.
What I'd like to see happen now is a public announcement that hospitals will not treat the young if they get sick with CV because they are ignoring social distancing and have higher survival rates. (If they are identified in photos of spring break crowds they are banned from hospital care.) That might shake things up a little.
Does this apply only to young people? Why not the old, who are directly at risk, and who are the beneficiaries of enormous sacrifice (which is evidently still not enough to satisfy some) from the not-old? Why should old people, whom I keep seeing in germy restaurants and hanging out with their germy grandkids, be rewarded with guaranteed medical care in your scenario while young people are punished?
You know what you're dealing with when a rabbi describes a member of his congregation as a "client."
And, to Achilles- I'm usually on the same page as you, but I think it's foolish to ignore the positive effects a healthy economy has on the physical health of the citizens of a country. It's not just a matter of having our electronic toys cost more. If we don't generate a positive economic return with our activity, we won't have money to buy ventilators, educate doctors and nurses. We typically consider a year of life worth about 100K. We are way over that in our current plans.
'What an absurd, jejune, godawful silly hypothetical. In general the young are more valuable than the elderly."
Seems like someone has been playing with a thesaurus today. Which is a commendable way to pass the time, while responsibly self-quarantining.
"some conservatives are flirting with allowing older Americans to just take their chances in order to pump up those conservatives' 401(k) plans."
Really? Such as?
Also I’m sorry if some old folks cannot handle their mortality. That is a personal and spiritual problem they need to come to terms with. No one is guaranteed anything, especially at 80, 90, 100 years old. Argue with biology if you must.
Ableism and ageism? Empathetic appeals? Are there people indulging diversity? It's a progressive condition. #HateLovesAbortion
Dust Bunny Queen, 12:48:
I’m so sorry. I hope he is being well cared for. I wish him, you and all who love him peace.
I would like everyone in the world to stop all activity and stay inside to benefit me. Me me me. Give me the best chance of survival. Don't drive on the roads because you might crash into me. Don't walk or ride your bike because I might have to swerve to avoid you. And I dont want any of your germs so please stay inside until further notice to protect me. Meanwhile, I'm going to go do my thing because it is more important than whatever it is that you do. Don't you all agree that my priorities are paramount? Of course you do.
By Jove,he's got it. That was a complete and succinct description of what a Nazi is: someone that will proudly dispose of other people that they deem are worthless to them.
Also, how does the average NYT reader who nods along with this essay feel about aborting fetuses with disabilities?
"Chronically ill" rabbis, should, indeed, stay home and self-quarantine. If you're chronically ill, you are risk for the common cold, flu, Coronavirus, or a ton of other bugs.
And, if the good Rabbi, is over 70, please stay home twice!
Now, let's talk about the 329,000,963 other Americans, 99% of whom are healthy. What should they do?
Seems like someone has been playing with a thesaurus today.
You might find a thesaurus useful, but jejune is in my everyday lexicon.
I find it sadly useful here more often than I'd wish.
The NY Times is trash. As is this essay.
A social contagion. You would think they would have learned something after spreading diversity, hate, and exclusion after nearly 16 trimesters of failed witch hunts and warlock trials. No, they still speak truth to facts. #PrinciplesMatter
"some conservatives are flirting with allowing older Americans to just take their chances in order to pump up those conservatives' 401(k) plans."
Interesting, a blood libel. Neither Planned Parenthood nor Planned Parent. #HateLovesAbortion
Also, how does the average NYT reader who nods along with this essay feel about aborting fetuses with disabilities?
You're asking for introspection from the readers of a newspaper that endorsed Hillary Clinton.
mock: Angle, if you noticed the rest of my post you will see that I was discussing state imposition, not medical.
You're right, my apologies. Big distinction. Sloppy reading on my part.
I can't decide which is worse, this guy or George Conway. One of the nuances of the Yiddish term "schtick" I am coming to appreciate is that it is sticky, extremely hard to drop, even in crisis. No matter how foolish or shallow it makes you appear to others.
/s/ a Second Generation Survivor of WWII (and the Depression! and Polio!).
Also, how does the average NYT reader who nods along with this essay feel about aborting fetuses with disabilities?
Fetal Americans. A baby, if she is deemed worthy of life, or if her parts cannot be recycled for profit. Planned parenthood operates chambers for selective and cannibalized-child.
Sally sez: If we're going to start weighing out the relative value of everyone's life I don't see why age would be the determining factor.
That's one reason China has, for several years, adopted a social credit system and a good reason why we should not. But we who are older should not necessarily rage, rage against the dying of the light but, as Pants suggests, accept mortality with grace and spiritual reckoning.
A lot of vicious comments in this thread. I guess compassion is really Dead, like God.
If the woke triage team had to decide between black and white
Under the diversity doctrine of the Pro-Choice religion there would be color quotas with "preferences".
@DBQueen: I'm sad to read of the end of your Dad's path. I hope he has someone with him -- even if it can't be you -- at the end, if that's what he wants (My own Dad actually waited 'til people left the room before he let himself go, the little sneak! That was typical)
If we're going to start weighing out the relative value of everyone's life I don't see why age would be the determining factor.
Traditionally, it's women and children, first, and age is only a factor in individual choices (e.g. parents who compromise their quality of life for Posterity, men who stand in self-defense of their families and communities, and women who bear children and assume the attendant risk).
Rabbi Kukla's arguments, if they can be so dignified, put in mind of the philosophy electives I took under Tom Regan, the infamous pet philosopher of the PETA organization, lately deceased. He opened his first lecture with his opinion that in his hypothetical overcrowded lifeboat a human should be thrown overboard before a dog. I blurted out that at least the remaining humans wouldn't need to face the choice of cannibalism quite so soon, which earned me an evil look from Doctor Tom. (Besides being an amoral moralist, he indulged in fake egalitarianism shamelessly.)
Regan was the darling of the co-eds, who swooned over him like Victorian virgins. The rest of us considered him a charlatan. I took only one bit of useful philosophy away from those courses. When torpedoed and adrift in a lifeboat, placate the sharks with a juicy philosopher.
The danger comes when "triage" in the form of a single payer health system gets to decide based on ECONOMIC reasons who gets to live and who gets to let die. The old, because it just might cost too much? Downs Syndrome babies because who needs to have retarded individuals as a drag on society. Undesirable people who are handicapped, chronic welfare recipients who don't work or pay taxes, unacceptable ethnic types, religious heretics, political opponents?
Well put, Dust Bunny Queen!
It is true that blacks and Native Americans are in higher risk groups with higher rates of hypertension, high blood pressure, diabetes. All those young diversity and social justice warriors might think about that on their way to parties.
The thing that makes me a little angry is that in my town we are doing all this effort to shelter in place for three weeks but what happens after three weeks if young infected tourists show up? Do we start all over again?
If you cared a lot about other Americans who might face financial ruin (with the possible damage to their families) from this financial downturn, you might have an argument.
It's not a "financial downturn". It's a pandemic. So, what part of the economy and social services (e.g. medical, agricultural, sanitation, security, energy) should be shutdown? How long before the population develops sufficient immunity to mitigate its progress?
I'd like to know the alternative to saving the greatest number of lives. That's what triage is.
Are we supposed to save fewer lives because older and sicker people will still die at a higher rate even with the same treatment?
The author doesn't have an alternative, only a pointing finger. What's your solution? Defend it. First-come- first-serve? Sickest first? These are defensible, but you have to do the work. Prove it!
There isn't a good side and a bad side. Obviously, failing to safeguard yourself and others is wrong. Once inside the hospital, it's more complicated.
A lot of vicious comments in this thread. I guess compassion is really Dead, like God.
Be more specific, otherwise you sound like the whiner in this thread.
a single payer health system gets to decide based on ECONOMIC reasons who gets to live and who gets to let die
How is that any different than what we have now? If you can afford the medical treatment, you get to live.
what happens after three weeks if young infected tourists show up?
Carriers without symptoms without borders. This is the problem of shutting down the economy without knowing when the native population will develop sufficient immunity to mitigate progress. The social contagion already hints at being worse than the disease. The cascading failure caused by shutting down the economy and social services for extend period would likely be catastrophic, especially in urban spaces. Meanwhile, the pathogen(s) linger, hope, and change for another day.
Game Changer -- The CFR is 1% in older folks (age 70+) and .125% in the rest of us.
My instincts are pro-life, but what that means now is not an easy call.
How is that any different than what we have now? If you can afford the medical treatment, you get to live.
The first step is to normalize healthy behaviors. The second step is to address progressive prices and availability. Single/central solutions are dictatorial. Market solutions are democratic. The latter is backed with charitable or public smoothing functions, because we believe people have individual dignity, intrinsic value, and, perhaps, inordinate worth. Maybe not. We need to lose our Pro-Choice religion.
Bay Area Guy - I’m skeptical. South Korea was running for awhile at one fatality in 200 diagnosed cases. They were the only ones who tested very aggressively from the start, and not just people who they had reason to believe were sick. They were the only country for whom I didn’t suspect the denominator was misleadingly small. Their cases have nearly leveled off and their CFR has slowly approached, and finally slightly exceeded, 1%.
That cruise ship came out to 1% dead, of those who tested positive. Granted cruise ships have a lot of old people. They also have a lot of wealthy, active, healthy old people.
My guess - and this is not my expertise - is that it really is around 1% of all who get sick, given a well-resourced, non-overwhelmed medical system.
LYNNDH - curious if my comments qualify as “vicious.” The good rabbi did piss me off, and I can be hard hearted. I try not to be.
Bay Area Guy-
Wonderful, if true, but still much worse than influenza by a factor of ~ 7.
All healthcare is rationed. It is valuable and in limited supply, with unlimited demand -- thus it has to be rationed. In countries with national health services, rationing is accomplished by extending waiting times or by denying service.
In a private system like ours, rationing is generally accomplished by denying care to those who can't pay. So the system is classist, but not ageist. Fortunately, we are protected by a 1996 statute called the emergency and active labor act that prohibits medical personnel from providing lifesaving treatment in an emergency.
We are a long way from rationing emergency services in the US.
LYNNDH: A lot of vicious comments in this thread. I guess compassion is really Dead, like God.
Please point out where and by whom you think a lack of compassion is being shown.
I guess triage doctors are heartless bastards by some people's reckoning of "compassion".
"The woke generation has to walk the talk? They talk about existential threats but that only applies to some abstract notion of humanity, not actual people."
At today's Corona Virus update, the Surgeon General asked millennials and Gen Zs to please give blood, which is desperately needed and is a low risk way to help. Let's see if they step up to the plate.
When I donated blood the other day, I noticed the other donors there were, like me, all over 50. The woman who took my blood told me there have been many cancellations - mainly elderly people who have been regular donors for many years, but are afraid to do it right now.
So c'mon, woke young people. Wearing pussy hats and virtue-signaling on Twitter is all very nice, but here's something you can do that's actually, you know, useful.
PP: How is that any different than what we have now? If you can afford the medical treatment, you get to live.
True for some treatments. Plenty of poor people who can't afford to pay for it get life-saving medical treatment in this country.
Sinz52;"From denouncing "the killing of the unborn" to denouncing euthanasia of the terminally ill, some conservatives are flirting with allowing older Americans to just take their chances in order to pump up those conservatives' 401(k) plans."
You seem nice, but I've noticed you always seem to jump to the wrong conclusion. I'm 75 so I'm in the at risk population, and I'm also one of those nasty conservatives, but I also don't believe we should be destroying people's lives and livelihoods by unnecessarily clamping down the country. Why not isolate us old farts from the general population and let the low risk folks carry on with their lives? I'm perfectly capable of isolating myself as I'm doing now, so what is the purpose of isolating those who are not at risk? It doesn't affect me at this point. The Korean data shows that only two people under 50 in the whole damn country died from the Corona virus, so why does it have to be all or nothing? And why do you think this has to do with fucking 401Ks instead of common sense and risk management?
jaydub to sinz52: "You seem nice, but I've noticed you always seem to jump to the wrong conclusion."
I think sinz goes astray on his facts and assumptions long before he gets around to bolloxing up his conclusions.
And why do you think this has to do with fucking 401Ks instead of common sense and risk management?
Because progs are itching to appropriate and redistribute your 401K. (For the common good, of course.) They're always thinking about your 401K so they assume you are, too.
I noticed a few comments from people who have elderly parents and I want to offer sympathy if you unable to visit with them at this time or can't get to see somebody to say goodbye. That's a painful situation. Condolences.
His life is no less valuable than the lives of the millions of young men who served during WW2 delivering his people from the hands of the Nazis.
Yet we are constantly lectured my the media and progressives - that If ONLY we had Government run single payer heath care - then we could be more like Italy.
I don't want to be more like Italy.
We need to care for all who need it, and do it with the genius of the private sector in combination with an honest government.
You don't get honest governmetn from Hillary, Schitt, Nancy, or Biden.
"Why not isolate us old farts from the general population and let the low risk folks carry on with their lives?"
I thought rigorous quarantining of old farts and then try sick was the right way to go from the outset, with reasonable social distancing for everyone else.
Obviously, politics and feelings made that impossible. But soon, it will be the fallback option. The country may accept a catastrophic implosion of the economy and forcing young people to sacrifice for old people--but only temporarily. It cannot last, therefore it won't. Stein's law rules, even the Wuhan Virus.
"... some conservatives are flirting with allowing older Americans to just take their chances in order to pump up those conservatives' 401(k) plans."
I don't know about them, but I believe every life that can be saved should be saved. Maybe conservatives have simply realized that eventually EVERYBODY DIES, and you haven't.
Everyone realizes that this person is a woman ... ?
The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.
EVERYBODY DIES, and you haven't.
It'd be pretty cool if a dead guy was posting here.
Sophist's Choice. Another proud Butthurt-American whines where everyone can hear him.
Narr
Nazinazinazi
This rabbi is overwrought at best. The reason why so many Jews live here is precisely because we don't treat Jewish people the way most of the rest of the world does.
MadisonMan said... @DBQueen: I'm sad to read of the end of your Dad's path. I hope he has someone with him -- even if it can't be you -- at the end, if that's what he wants
Thank you MadisonM. Yes. Although we family members were forbidden to go into the facility, LT Care where there are others to consider, they are making an exception for my Step Mother (his wife of over 30 years) to be able to visit. It has been a long decline with a sudden slope in these past few weeks. We all wanted to be there, but understand that the circumstances are that we can't. It is sad...but it is what it is.
With the quarantine, we will not likely be able to gather or mourn directly. We do plan to have a great send off later this year though when life gets back to normal. It will you know. Eventually.
The idea of spending precious resources on someone of the advanced age and more importantly the irreversible condition of my father is a selfish idea. IF/When I get to that stage I want to exit stage left" gracefully. (To quote the great Snagglepuss) I want quality, not necessarily quantity of life.
However, age should not be the sole deciding factor in denying care. Life or death should not be a financial....cost benefit analysis. Choosing a cut off date where you are not given care despite your individual condition.
That is a morally corrupt and evil way to look at life.
Hysterical cunt
After my father died at the age of 87, I was sure my mother, who was highly dependent on him, would pass away in the next 12 months. Instead, she hung on for another 6 years, making everyone's life a misery. We'd joke that my father asked St. Peter for a 6 year reprieve, and since he was a great person, his wish was granted.
Other than our pure animal nature, I can't understand the desire to hand on to life long after most of its valuable parts are gone. Anyone under 50 who is not a criminal or a narcissist can have my ventilator.
"It'd be pretty cool if a dead guy was posting here."
On the Internet, no one knows you're dead.
"EVERYBODY DIES, and you haven't.
It'd be pretty cool if a dead guy was posting here."
I should have made that more clear. I'm not dead, but I will be, eventually. I'm sorry for any confusion I may have caused.
That's very nice, except for the part about *second generation* holocaust survivor. Man, people just don't know when to quit do they? Don't dilute the meaning of holocaust survivor.
BTW, if you left Austria in 1935 you're a "Holocaust Survivor". If you lived in Europe from 1933-1945 and your country was occupied by - or allied to - Nazi Germany, you are officially a "Holocaust Survivor". That means if you left say, France in 1936 for the USA you "survived the Holocaust".
Its called triage, and has been going on since before Hippocrates. It is focusing finite resources on those most likley to survive. It's doing a 20 minute procedure to keep a patient stable, when a four hour surgery is what he needs.
The Rabbi is talking out of his ass. AND, it is what single payer healthcare mandates. Distribution of finite resources.
The great one explained that to us...what 11-12 years ago?
"Everyone realizes that this person is a woman ... ?"
I didn't know that, but it explains a lot. Fake man, fake rabbi, fake Holocaust survivor, fake hypothetical ChiCom victim, fake outrage. It makes more sense now, but still not enough sense to justify the fake-news NYT publishing it.
Yes every life if precious. But some lives are more valuable then others. If we get in a situation that "triage" is necessary, then old people will be put behind the young. Which is as it should be. Once you get past a certain age, you're living on borrowed time. You've lived you life of 60+ years, and its absurd that you should live, while an 19 y/o dies.
That's very nice, except for the part about *second generation* holocaust survivor. Man, people just don't know when to quit do they? Don't dilute the meaning of holocaust survivor..
Since my parents and grand parents where born in the USA, and my woke betters identify me as an immigrant, second generation holocaust survivor seems much more plausible.
Gee that would make me a second generation holocaust liberator!
Why is everything in the New York Times such Bullshit and/or negative? Imagine reading that crap every day and BELIEVING IT.
I noticed a few comments from people who have elderly parents and I want to offer sympathy if you unable to visit with them at this time or can't get to see somebody to say goodbye. That's a painful situation. Condolences.
Seconded, and well put, Roslyn.
"2nd Gen Holocaust Survivors" would be a good name for a punk band. (Hell, my dentist could make the claim, but he's got sense.)
By this measure, the 9/11 terrorists missed me at the WTC by a mere five years.
Narr
a.k.a. Asagi Sakashito, survivor of eight successful kamikaze missions
We're shutting down society to protect society.
But by shutting down society we are also destroying society.
Drawing that line is difficult. It's not morally obvious. Or, it may be morally obvious in the short term, but not in the long term, when real social destruction spreads.
Wake up, Rabbi. The doings of Progs a hundred years ago were found to be inspiring by the Nazis and the mofos haven't changed much. They love the idea that they get to decide who is worthy to exist and who isn't. They always decide they are most worthy, natch.
If you can afford the medical treatment, you get to live.
You mean I didn't have to spend all those nights operating on people who didn't pay?
Now you tell me !
I am a 16th generation survivor of The Plague, and a 6th generation survivor of The Potato Famine.
Additionally, I am an actual survivor of the swine flu epidemic of 1976, the stagflation of the 70s, the US public school system, and disco.
The media has run out of facts they are willing to report on. Thus the shift to printing opinion pieces written by literally anybody. This unknown rabbi, and I think I heard snippets from a New York Dr,that is whining about supplies running low.
Why does a Hospitals poor planning morph into a national emergency, and that somehow the President has to power to create supplies from the far side of the rainbow.
This rabbi and surgeon have sullied their reputation, if they had any, by rolling in the mud, attempting to politicize a medical emergency.
>>I'm not dead, but I will be, eventually. I'm sorry for any confusion I may have caused.
Damn, Binks...talk about burying the lead!
We had to destroy the village in order to save it.
I hope it doesn't come to that.
rcocean
Yes every life if precious. But some lives are more valuable then others. If we get in a situation that "triage" is necessary, then old people will be put behind the young. Which is as it should be. Once you get past a certain age, you're living on borrowed time. You've lived you life of 60+ years, and its absurd that you should live, while an 19 y/o dies.
It isn't as simple as you would like it to be.
What if the patients are a 60 year old surgeon who could go on for another 10 years to save lives...versus a 19 year old high school drop out whose greatest accomplishment is being great at Fortnite. (Video game for all you other UNhip oldsters.:-)
I pick the surgeon. Age doesn't always count.
Each individual is what counts and the circumstances of their illness, their skills, their potential, value to society among a few parameters. This is why medicine by Committee or by a rule book is a very very bad idea.
I am a 16th generation survivor of The Plague, and a 6th generation survivor of The Potato Famine.
I'm a 2nd generation survivor of Nazi bombings and poison gas testing gone wrong at Dugway Proving Ground.
And, worst of all, I'm my own grandpa.
What if the patients are a 60 year old surgeon who could go on for another 10 years to save lives...versus a 19 year old high school drop out whose greatest accomplishment is being great at Fortnite. (Video game for all you other UNhip oldsters.:-)
I pick the surgeon. Age doesn't always count.
Each individual is what counts and the circumstances of their illness, their skills, their potential, value to society among a few parameters. This is why medicine by Committee or by a rule book is a very very bad idea.
Not an alarmist, but gonna work on a resume to show the doctor, should the need arise.
I'm a 2nd generation survivor of Nazi bombings and poison gas testing gone wrong at Dugway Proving Ground.
And, worst of all, I'm my own grandpa.
C'mon, man! Ain't nobody got time for riddles..
jayub@2:12pm/
Agree. With you all the way..
Signed: Another 75 yr-old geezer (slowly fossilizing)
*sorry jayDub..
How is that any different than what we have now? If you can afford the medical treatment, you get to live."
Penguin what is point of having money if you can't spend it on true necessities? Under your premise poor folks with no money and whose care is paid with other people's money jump the line over someone who can pay in cash with his own cash? That's an incentive to acquire power instead of money.
That guy is carrying a heavy load.
Angle-Dyne, Servant of Ugliness said...
LYNNDH: A lot of vicious comments in this thread. I guess compassion is really Dead, like God.
Please point out where and by whom you think a lack of compassion is being shown.
I guess triage doctors are heartless bastards by some people's reckoning of "compassion"."
A choice between a criminal and an old person who isn't a criminal is an easy choice. Spare the oldster. Someone up thread gave the hypothetical about saving a rapist or murderer who could become a brilliant virologist as if such a situation has ever occured. If someone is prision, its for a good reason (as a general proposition) so leave them there and don't release them now with virus panic.
Blogger rcocean said...
Yes every life if precious. But some lives are more valuable then others. If we get in a situation that "triage" is necessary, then old people will be put behind the young. Which is as it should be. Once you get past a certain age, you're living on borrowed time. You've lived you life of 60+ years, and its absurd that you should live, while an 19 y/o dies."
Why is a 19 year old automatically presumed to worth more than me?
Blogger rcocean said...
Yes every life if precious. But some lives are more valuable then others. If we get in a situation that "triage" is necessary, then old people will be put behind the young. Which is as it should be. Once you get past a certain age, you're living on borrowed time. You've lived you life of 60+ years, and its absurd that you should live, while an 19 y/o dies."
Why is a 19 year old automatically presumed to worth more than me?
LYNNDH said...
A lot of vicious comments in this thread. I guess compassion is really Dead, like God."
I would be to differ on God, but the rest you said is spot on.
Someone up thread stated that urging the young to go about normal living in order to preserve the values of the oldster's 401K's is not only an idiot but if that idiocy where to become the norm we oldsters should spend as much as we can and leave nothing to ingrate youth. Now to be clear, I don't think destroying the economy is necessary, this isn't the Black Plaque but sensible precautions is more than enough to keep this thing from getting really out of control. As horrible as the flu of 1918 was, this isn't going to come anywhere near close to that even if we did nothing more than what was done then. Caution is healthy. Panic is not.
Everyone is missing the point. It is not who's life is more valuable.
Where are you going to invest finite resources in the next 2 hours? 6? 24? 48? Not who is more valuable. Which one (or probably, how many more) can I best direct resources?
Investing massive efforts into a famous highly valuable specialist in viral responses, is a waste if chances of recovery is only 10%. Those resources could maybe help 3 dozen affected patients and have all of them recover. So lose one, and save 3.
That's triage
Everybody wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die. As if we have a choice.
iowan2 Investing massive efforts into a famous highly valuable specialist in viral responses, is a waste if chances of recovery is only 10%. Those resources could maybe help 3 dozen affected patients and have all of them recover. So lose one, and save 3.
That's triage
EXACTLY. Choosing based on survivable odds and NOT on some artificial age threshold.
If your chances of surviving are low to nil, then proper triage is that you are given palliative care until you are expired. Not tossed out into the garbage heap. But eased out while resources are given to those who have a better chance of living and going on.
When the odds are even, then it does become a difficult judgement call. Who is more valuable to society? Who WANTS to make that horrible decision?
To the person asking why fewer resources might be spent on older people on average in triage: your value to others is cumulative over the remaining years of your life. Sure, some young people have low or even negative value. It remains: most elders are a burden and it's only love from others that keeps them alive. Cherish it. (some elders are still invaluable!)
So do transwomen get to go to the life boat?
Entertainers and social media influencers go to the head of the line. Because they are smart and important and they matter
Samantha Calls Ivanka Trump a 'Feckless Cunt'
Kathy Griffin Says 'F**k You' To 'Feckless Piece Of S**t ...Chrissy Teigen Attacks Melania Trump: ‘F**k You... Wifebot’
Why is a 19 year old automatically presumed to worth more than me?
What horseshit. You're telling me that you, or the average person if you're special, wouldn't gladly, proudly, take a bullet for your grandchild? And be horrified if he or she took one for you?
I don't know how they roll where you come from, but in this society it's still our pride and honor to "stand and be still to the Birkenhead Drill." That means, women and children first. I can't imagine a mother choosing her own life before her offspring's, so really it's down to children. Children = the future.
Triage. Sorry.
I am not the most pro-life person in the world -- aborting a child is sin, like many of the other things people do in the belief that it will make their lives more pleasant -- but even I am surprised that the rabbi did not so much as mention abortion. So my sympathy for the rabbi's POV is blunted. He wants sympathy for people like him, not for people unlike him. He has his own category of "Lebensunwertes Leben" to which he consigns human children still in their mothers' womb.
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