January 10, 2020

"Despite a new imperative to be scrupulous about affirmative consent, young men are still subject to incessant messages that sexual conquest... remains the measure of a 'real' man..."

"... and a reliable path to social status. As one high school junior explained, 'Guys need to prove themselves to their guys. So to do that, you’re going to be dominating. You’re going to maybe push. Because, it’s like the girl is just there as a means for him to get off and a means for him to brag.' I never intended to write about boys. As a journalist, I have spent over a quarter of a century chronicling girls’ lives.... ...I found myself wishing, in my conversations with girls, that their early sexual experiences did not have to be, as they so often were, something they had to get over. That will require reducing the harm boys cause, whether out of monstrous venality, entitlement, heedlessness or even (maybe especially) ignorance. [Boys] need a counternarrative to the one that elevates the transactional over the connected, the sensual, the kind; boys need to value mutual gratification in their sexual encounters, whether with one-offs or long-term partners."

From "Will We Ever Figure Out How to Talk to Boys About Sex?/Teenagers and young men still don’t have the right vocabulary. Can we help them get there?" by Peggy Orenstein — author of "Boys & Sex: Young Men on Hookups, Love, Porn, Consent and Navigating the New Masculinity."

From Orenstein's Wikipedia page:
Peggy Orenstein's ideas revolve around the discrepancy between men and women's sexuality. For example, in an interview with 70 women between 15 and 20, she found that the young women were expected to please their sexual partners but did not expect it to be reciprocated.... Orenstein... discusses how the idea of sexual promiscuity for women is a double edged sword... Orenstein... encourages them to walk a fine line between “slut” and “prude.”...
ADDED: Orenstein also has an article in The Atlantic, "The Miseducation of the American Boy/Why boys crack up at rape jokes, think having a girlfriend is 'gay,' and still can’t cry—and why we need to give them new and better models of masculinity." Excerpt:
According to Andrew Smiler, a psychologist who has studied the history of Western masculinity, the ideal late-19th-century man was compassionate, a caretaker, but such qualities lost favor as paid labor moved from homes to factories during industrialization. In fact, the Boy Scouts, whose creed urges its members to be loyal, friendly, courteous, and kind, was founded in 1910 in part to counter that dehumanizing trend. Smiler attributes further distortions in masculinity to a century-long backlash against women’s rights. During World War I, women proved that they could keep the economy humming on their own, and soon afterward they secured the vote. Instead of embracing gender equality, he says, the country’s leaders “doubled down” on the inalienable male right to power, emphasizing men’s supposedly more logical and less emotional nature as a prerequisite for leadership....

108 comments:

Fernandistein said...

As one high school junior explained,

No need to read any further than that.

Bill, Republic of Texas said...

Yawn.

Spiros Pappas said...

That quote is a lie.

Mark O said...

The " line between “slut” and “prude.”..." is not really that fine.

Ganderson said...

So.... the ways in which societies attempted to regulate sexual behavior may not have been so stupid after all? Who knew?

Shouting Thomas said...

The usual...

Levi Starks said...

No discussion about how the emotionally aggressive nature of girls?
In the end both groups are getting exactly what they think they want.
In my own case...
I was a high school looser, never made it with the ladies....
Yet somehow I find myself nearing my 35th year of marriage.

jaydub said...

Shouldn't this post have a "feminist bullshit" tag?

Lucid-Ideas said...

Some notes for Orenstein:

1) Men's sexuality is like a vending machine, you put in a quarter, you get a soda. This has always been that way, and will always be that way. What we need to figure out is how to get women to be that way too in this ADHD society we're living in. Sorry, I don't have 6 months to wait for a soda.

2) Sexual conquest and that girls don't do this. Bullshit.

3) Dominating. The #1 thing I've heard from every girl I've ever been with is how much she appreciated how I was able to be less like a man and more like a cat.

4) If girls (and women) were much less receptive to putting out these days as a way of one-upping their competition as opposed to willingness to put in the time build the love that is the secret ingredient to sex, I'd be all for it. But they don't. The market-price of pussy is so low I can't even. Women have no one to blame for this but themselves. To reverse paraphrase an article recently, "pussy is abundant and of low value". And I'm not even talking about international yet...

5) Once again, your ultimate solution to the non-problem you state is the solution to men is 'to make men more like women'. Epic fail.

tcrosse said...

“Le pénis a ses raisons que le raison ne connaît point.”

rehajm said...

The " line between “slut” and “prude.”..." is not really that fine.

If there is a line at all the typical young woman follows it like a drunk at a DWI stop.

Gahrie said...

For example, in an interview with 70 women between 15 and 20, she found that the young women were expected to please their sexual partners but did not expect it to be reciprocated.

Women must never be made to feel bad about, or responsible for, anything, ever.

madAsHell said...

Orgasm envy. It only happens when she’s alone.

GatorNavy said...

My son is a very competitive jock, but his aggressive competitive mindset pales in comparison to the young ladies efforts to capture his attention and or affections. Those poor girls 🙄

gilbar said...

Orenstein... encourages them to walk a fine line between “slut” and “prude.”...

ummm.... how about...
encourages them to walk on the wide boulevard between “slut” and “prude”?
encourages them to walk in the acres of space between “slut” and “prude”?
encourages them to walk down the middle of the chasm between “slut” and “prude”?
encourages them to walk around REALIZING how much space is between “slut” and “prude”?

So MANY choices... NONE of them, 'a fine line'

rehajm said...

your ultimate solution to the non-problem you state is the solution to men is 'to make men more like women'. Epic fail.

It's a emasculate men to the point you're not attracted to them anymore strategy

chuck said...

Darwin wins again.

rehajm said...

Orgasm envy. It only happens when she’s alone.

As Gweneth's Christmas wishes say ...do something for others but don't forget about number one...yes, that IS a vibrator.

Birkel said...

15-20 includes lots of girls. And some women, too.

I think we should start from the assumption that male human sexuality is bad. We can work backward from that. I wish that were sarcasm but the author thinks it's not.

If women (excluding the teenage girls the author includes) decide to share sex with a man, they should demand satisfaction. What that means to them is flexible. The author doesn't get to decide that for the women.

Ann Althouse said...

"The line between “slut” and “prude.”..." is not really that fine."

LOL.

Don't know how Orenstein herself actually phrased the concept, but maybe — especially among teenagers — the insults "slut" and "prude" are used so much that there's very little room to avoid one or the other. In that case, the advice to girls shouldn't be to walk the fine line in between in the hope of avoiding either insult, but don't let people manipulate you with bullshit insults.

The Cracker Emcee Refulgent said...


“As one high school junior explained”

Total made up bullshit. The premise and the quote. I’ve been a high school junior and I’ve known a lot of high school juniors, both as contemporaries and in recent years, and this doesn’t ring true at all. Sure, the sexes objectify each other. That’s how the species is propagated. But this feminist fantasy of a legion of 17 year-old swingers is nonsense. If anything, high school juniors are more susceptible to the idea of romantic love than their elders.

OTOH, maybe my friends and I just weren’t getting as lucky as many of our peers.

mccullough said...

It’s up to these boys and girls parents, especially their fathers, to teach them.

The Jewish Mother approach doesn’t work

Iman said...

“ I was a high school loser, never made it with the ladies....
Yet somehow I find myself nearing my 35th year of marriage”

But are you still down on the muffin, playin’ hey, diddle-diddle with the kitteh in the middle?

William said...

Was there ever a time or a place where most people's first sexual experiences were idyllic? Bad sex encourages young people to settle down and get married.....It does seem that the nature of bad sex has changed since I was young. Irish Catholic here. My bad experiences were based on shame, ignorance, and lust. I think young people are better informed as to the mechanics of sex and are less ashamed of their desires, but they still manage to have bad experiences. Well, the human race keeps working at it, and I'm sure someday we will come up with a way to have sex that leaves all parties happy, fulfilled, and proud.

rhhardin said...

There's no imperative.

Kirk Parker said...

Wow, as Hardin bait, this post is a failure.

chuck said...

>> pales in comparison to the young ladies efforts to capture his attention <<

This. I've heard that complaint from parents before.

Kirk Parker said...

Well one thing we know for sure, is that women never ever ever engage in transactional sex.

Kirk Parker said...

Or.... Maybe it's just taking him a while to get warmed up. Time to think about TRT , maybe?

Ann Althouse said...

"The #1 thing I've heard from every girl I've ever been with is how much she appreciated how I was able to be less like a man and more like a cat."

Trying to guess the number of girls he's been with based on the likelihood they'd all come up with the idea that he was more like a cat than a man.

Was thinking one, 2 at the most, but then I realized, I don't know Lucid-Ideas. He might be like this. The number could be sky high!

Francisco D said...

Guys need to prove themselves to their guys.

In my Baby Boomer time, guys proved themselves to their guys by being athletes and scholars.

The biological desire to get laid was strong, but guys didn't talk that much about it. I would guess that we were clumsy oafs in the romance game and talking about it honestly would be embarrassing.

Nonetheless some (20% or so) of us did get laid in HS. It was a big deal, but I do not recall guys talking much about it. That is likely because we were inexperienced naifs and did not really know what we were doing.

mccullough said...

If you know 20% got laid, then the boys talked.

rehajm said...

All right! We get it! Cats was horrible...

Lucid-Ideas said...

@AA

OMG you found me! How? Only 1 or 2 have ever gotten me purring liking a hemi, and I genuinely love belly-rubs. Please don't tell the world, I'd never live it down.

Qwinn said...

Of course men recognize sexual conquest as an indicator of social status. Why? Because for most women, social status is *their* prerequisite for having sex. If a guy is getting laid, it's almost always because she thinks he has social status and wants to attach herself to it. Why is it wrong for men to recognize the most accurate indicator of social status that there is, the sexual interest of women?

Shouting Thomas said...

When I was young, the sex was good with compatible partners, and bad with incompatible partners.

The early efforts were pretty clunky and unsuccessful, but isn't that true of any human endeavor?

Should there be some sort of government agency charged with making female orgasm an imperative?

Note to women: The fact that a man ejaculates isn't proof that the sex was great or even satisfactory.

Oso Negro said...

Young men of America and the world! You have been doing it ALL WRONG! But fear not, a savior has appeared among us to light your way to sexual salvation. Peggy Orenstein! A scholar. She has talked to 15 or 20 young women.

Meade said...

“Well, the human race keeps working at it, and I'm sure someday we will come up with a way to have sex that leaves all parties happy, fulfilled, and proud.”

Old rule: Wait until you’re married.

New rule: Wait until you’re 50.

Fernandistein said...

Oh, give me a home where the boys act like girls
And the girls don't walk a fine line

Where seldom is heard an affirmative consent
And the boys are not bragging all day

Wa St Blogger said...

I wonder if the author is stuck in the movie Grease where every guy is a T-Bird and every girl is Sandra Dee (the first 75% of the movie.)

I've got 6 kids. My girls have never felt any pressure to "put out", and my boys don't think of girls as conquests. Hollywood does not reflect reality, only fantasy.

On the other hand, my 2nd girl friend did her best to get me to impregnate her. She managed to get some other poor sot to do it, but it did not work out like she had hoped. It didn't result in the ring she wanted.

Big Mike said...

The woman who, as a high school student fifty plus years ago, read Playboy at home and showed off her panty-covered butt in a mini skirt so short she was sent to the Vice-Principal’s office, is not really in a strong position to criticize modern high school mores.

Ray said...

When males see sexual conquest, through peer pressure, as the only means to be a man, then the sex has nothing to do with the other person. Just a means to an end. The feeling is short lived, so a new conquest is needed. Masculinity is much more than sexual conquest. It is strength of character, that can only be taught with good fathering (or mentoring).
Girls have their own selfish reasons for sex. The boys who figure that out can often manipulate the girls. I went to college in the late 70's and got caught up in this mess. I wasn't very good at pickups, and would often feel contempt for the girl who fell for my bullshit. I hated the whole scene. There were a few women who I took advantage of, even though I didn't treat them very well. I have a lot of regret about that. I was a selfish man back then.

The Crack Emcee said...

Everything I dislike about my ex-wife was fixed by Donald Trump, so, articles like this don't apply to me anymore.

My "sexual vocabulary" is fine, thanks.

Iman said...

Schoolboys got nothing on the schoolgirls these days. Our youngest son and our daughter are now 35 and 33, respectively, but I don’t think the situation has improved over the last several years in this area of human relations. Young men could be more considerate and young women couldn’t get any more aggressive than they’ve gotten.

They are maturing mentally later and later in life (in general) and our culture and society is not helping things. Parents have a real challenge and success is still attainable.

Big Mike said...

As long as high school girls achieve status based on the boy(s) who date her, there will be women who trade sex for dates. Very old story. The pinch-faced scolds of 21st century feminism are not going to change that by caterwauling about boys with raging hormones.

Kevin said...

Once you get to law school, slut and prude are replaced by dicey professional encounters.

Boston Globe: "At Harvard Law, reluctance to apply for clerkships with Trump-appointed judges"

I guess some women never get over wondering what others might think.

mtrobertslaw said...

A long time ago the phrase was "making love". It meant something entirely different from what the word "sex" means today. Nowadays, sex has nothing at all to do with love. I think most young women, whether they are conscious of it or not, yearn for the old days.

Big Mike said...

Peggy Orenstein! A scholar. She has talked to 15 or 20 young women.

She talked to 70, which is still a negligible number. Wow. Guys having their first sexual experiences are not good and thoughtful lovers. I think Orenstein has been reading too many romance novels.

Shouting Thomas said...

I see you're back to relentless self-promotion on somebody else's dime, Crack.

Virgil Hilts said...

"Guys need to prove themselves to their guys" - what a bunch of crap, unless things have changed an awful lot. In our day the only times you heard about actual sex acts was when people did them at parties or in front of people at someone's cabin or on a boat. Why would you jeopardize your potential ability to get girls/women to sleep with you by blabbing about it if/when you were ever successful. This theory is nonsense, but a useful theory because it suggests that boys are taught this and can be re-educated, that their sexual urges are not hard-coded in their genes. Dream on.

Chris N said...

For many years, the Patriarchy has conditioned young men to seek subservience and non-reciprocity from young women, while young women, as an oppressed class, have been conditioned to be subservient and pleasing. I hang around a lot of high-schools.

This cultural imbalance will soon be adjusted, as (W)e learn more (S)cience, and do more Journo-(S)cience to make high schools more moral, modern and equal places.

Let me tell you, in many high school parking lots, the response is OFF the charts among gays, lesbians, ugly and/or lonely girls and guys who might not ever get laid.

Join us at The Atlantic, The New Yorker, Slate and NPR. Join us in the faculty lounge, or at the counseling center. Join us in Washington, and most of all, join us in high school hallways as we protest Nature and Human Nature.

Liberation is Next.

Iman said...

“ Now, anybody ever seen her, they call her
miss demeanor
watch the way she slides from side to side
move so loose, look so good
plays in every game she could
now, she smell so sweet, like apple pie
oh so good 'bout to make me die
for a slice or two i'd be a fool
'round the neighborhood they say
she don't give no slice away”

Meade said...

I'll say it again — We should've impeached and removed Bill Clinton for the high crime of wrongfully firing his Surgeon General, Joycelyn Elders.

Denman said...

It’s too bad that there isn’t a book out there that could give young people guidance on how to treat one another. Some kind of Bible for human relationships.

dbp said...

The problem is right there in the title:

""Will We Ever Figure Out How to Talk to Boys About Sex?/Teenagers and young men still don’t have the right vocabulary. Can we help them get there?""

And the answer is No! There is literally nothing you can say to boys to fundamentally change how they act. Boys will respond to reality, not lectures. If girls demand more, they will get more of what they want. But they have to be fairly unified. If 50% of girls will put-out with few demands, the rest will have little bargaining power. In general, very attractive girls have a lot more bargaining power than unattractive ones. The power to be attractive overwhelmingly comes down to self-control, which also helps in driving hard bargains.

MadisonMan said...

Peggy Orenstein's ideas revolve around the discrepancy between men and women's sexuality.

I'm trying to visualize her ideas revolving around some point. I fail.

Ray said...

Surgeon General, Joycelyn Elders

Didn't she want the age of consent at 13. Jeffery Epstein would be alive today.

hombre said...

Oh, bullshit! “New?” “Still?” Conquest?”

I’m no young man, but when I was it was clear to most of us that the use of force to coerce a young woman to have sex was not a tactic used by “real men.” “Conquest” did not mean conquer as in military victory, but more like “win over” based on the assumption that young women of that generation were neither sluts nor prudes, but somewhere in between.

Nobody bragged about forcing anyone and we mostly assumed that the female, as willing participant, enjoyed it despite our bumbling. We certainly did not feel we were doing harm. I don’t argue that our assumptions were correct, but Orenstein purports to know our perspective and doesn’t.

The “new imperatives ... about affirmative consent,” like abortion, are devices to protect women from their own promiscuous conduct, not their exploitation by unscrupulous men.

chuck said...

Raging hormones are nature's way to bypass what little rationality teenagers have. It's needed for the preservation of the species.

Michael said...

"...a fine line between slut and prude...

Is she crazy? There are a thousand gradations between slut and prude. But once feminism has taught high school girls that they can behave like their randiest male counterparts, it turns out that they have to, to be "competitive." Gresham's Law. Once the mores of "repressive" civilization, built up over thousands of years, are stripped away people, including boys, do what comes naturally. And the gods of the copybook headings limp up to explain it again.

NorthOfTheOneOhOne said...

Lucid-Ideas said...

1) Men's sexuality is like a vending machine, you put in a quarter, you get a soda. This has always been that way, and will always be that way. What we need to figure out is how to get women to be that way too in this ADHD society we're living in. Sorry, I don't have 6 months to wait for a soda.

No, we don't. Women like that can't tell the difference between quarters and slugs. Do you really want that in society?

NorthOfTheOneOhOne said...

Lucid-Ideas said...

1) Men's sexuality is like a vending machine, you put in a quarter, you get a soda. This has always been that way, and will always be that way. What we need to figure out is how to get women to be that way too in this ADHD society we're living in. Sorry, I don't have 6 months to wait for a soda.

No, you don't. I've known a few like that and they can't differentiate between quarters and slugs.

Laura said...

Children approach sex childishly. What a surprise.

Initial sexual encounters are awkward even for adults, and the rules are constantly being reinvented. Expectations are that partners will be instantaneously satisfied, rather than have to learn and grow to satisfy each other's wants and needs. Children are attempting to absorb the rules that adults cannot even decipher.

Assumption of sex roles used to be tied to assumption of adult responsibilities and relationships. Keep divorcing sex from relationships and adulthood--what could go wrong with children?

Shouting Thomas said...

The woman who, as a high school student fifty plus years ago, read Playboy at home and showed off her panty-covered butt in a mini skirt so short she was sent to the Vice-Principal’s office...

A charming story. I loved the girls in mini skirts who flashed me back in the day. Some even skipped the panties. Which was OK by me.

Getting hauled off to the principal’s office is what makes it a good story.

Laura said...

Lecture boys all you want, but you've gotta teach girls caveat emptor too. If it walks and talks like a duck, it's gonna make love like a duck too.

Tina Trent said...

Boys know as little about mutual gratification for women as girls currently know about meaningful consequences. Teens do get morals and rules, however, if they are modeled sincerely and seriously.

So. We can rely on the scaffolding of mutual decency or expect adolescents of both sexes to suddenly understand mature human experience. I’m for moral scaffolding.

Seeing Red said...

Sexist.

Females are predatory. Talk to them.

Tina Trent said...

Boys know as little about mutual gratification for women as girls currently know about meaningful consequences. Teens do get morals and rules, however, if they are modeled sincerely and seriously.

So. We can rely on the scaffolding of mutual decency or expect adolescents of both sexes to suddenly understand mature human experience. I’m for moral scaffolding.

rehajm said...

Men's sexuality is like a vending machine, you put in a quarter, you get a soda.

So wait- where does the quarter go in?

rcocean said...

We're still pushing this crap. I thought we were past this boys divide girls into sluts and prudes. I never knew anyone in HS who behaved like this, and that was 30 years ago! I think this author is a lefty just pushing the narrative.

rcocean said...

"So wait- where does the quarter go in?"

And when you get old enough, its like pushing an oyster into a slot machine. Of course, maybe Vigria will fix that.

Michael K said...

I’m no young man, but when I was it was clear to most of us that the use of force to coerce a young woman to have sex was not a tactic used by “real men.” “Conquest” did not mean conquer as in military victory, but more like “win over” based on the assumption that young women of that generation were neither sluts nor prudes, but somewhere in between.

And, when I was young it rarely resulted in sex, as in intercourse. I can remember a girlfriend saying if she could be 100% certain she wouldn't get pregnant, OK.

Then the birth control pill came along and everything changed.

Then, eventually, feminism was taken over by the lesbians.

rcocean said...

A lot of people are a little too interested in discussing Teenagers sex lives - if you know what i mean.

rcocean said...

When it comes to sex there are talkers and doers.

The Crack Emcee said...

Shouting Thomas said...

"I see you're back to relentless self-promotion on somebody else's dime, Crack."

Yeah, but did you see the prominent placement in the CDBaby store - in two different categories?

Oh, ST, if only you were any good at anything, your comments would be received so much differently.

Why don't you spare yourself the humiliation, Man?

rcocean said...

Do women want to date a man who's sexually experienced or a virgin? A man who's slightly older or younger? A man with a job/$$ or not? Let's discuss that.

Francisco D said...

If you know 20% got laid, then the boys talked.

Yeah. We mostly talked about our HS conquests in college where 70% were getting laid. At that point, we had enough experience to know that HS sex was not a whole lot to brag about.

n.n said...

War of the sexes is diversitist. The double-edged scalpel is Pro-Choice. Reconcile.

Gahrie said...

emphasizing men’s supposedly more logical and less emotional nature as a prerequisite for leadership....

Amen!

rcocean said...

According to Andrew Smiler, a psychologist who has studied the history of Western masculinity = Guy who's just full of Left-wing bullshit.

Women did NOT prove they could "keep the economy humming" on their own during WW 1. This did NOT result in Women getting the vote in 1919. Wyoming gave women the vote in 1890! New York gave women the vote in 1915. Women went to work in defense plants in 1918, but men kept the economy going. We only enlisted/drafted 4 million men out of 12 million ages 18-31. Almost nobody over 31 got drafted in WW 1.

JAORE said...

The late (great) Joan Rivers said 9paraphrasing):
A man has multiple sexual conquests, he's a stud. But if a woman make 18 or 19 mistakes....

California Snow said...

So much of Ms. Orenstein's concerns would go away if people just waited until they were married. If you don't want to do that then at least wait to have sex until you are in a long term relationship. Navigating the relationship between the sexes isn't easy and never will be for teenagers and young adults but porn and the supposed sexual liberation is only complicating it.

n.n said...

Conflation of sex and gender. Social liberal club. Pro-Choice religion. Progressive confusion. Diversity. Debasement of human life. Are men and women less merry and gay?

frenchy said...

Note to women: The fact that a man ejaculates isn't proof that the sex was great or even satisfactory.

Also, a percentage of forcible stranger female rape victims experience orgasm while being raped. The exact percentage is unknown, but estimates are between 13 and 20%.

Victims are embarrassed to report it. The media nor else ever writes about it, discusses it, or researches it. It's an inconvenient fact that runs against the narrative on more than one level, so it's ignored and buried. So we don't know much about it. But it doesn't mean they liked it. It's an involuntary response.

SGT Ted said...

Why would any man accept women colonizing male spaces and telling young men what to do with their bodies?

Young women need to learn how to say "no" again when it concerns their own bodies, like they used to.

Angle-Dyne, Servant of Ugliness said...

Yet another plaint of the genre: "How can we make boys live up to the old standards of the chivalrous gentleman in their interactions with girls, while simultaneously insisting that asking girls to adhere to any standard of restraint and decorum (or even sanity) whatsoever is, like, totally misogynist?".

How many times has this article been written in the last fifty years?

Sebastian said...

"During World War I, women proved that they could keep the economy humming on their own"

WTF?

Sebastian said...

"simultaneously insisting that asking girls to adhere to any standard of restraint and decorum (or even sanity) whatsoever is, like, totally misogynist?"

Tell it to Althouse, still upset, after all these years, with a principal limiting her precious autonomy by keeping her from wearing a miniskirt.

Rick said...

Smiler attributes further distortions in masculinity to a century-long backlash against women’s rights.

This is just stupid.

Matt said...

In all the discussions about sex and consent and #MeToo and Mattress Girl over the last however many years, I have not once seen any mention of waiting until marriage as a means of staying out of trouble.

Not one.

n.n said...

#Judgment #TooManyLables #ShiftedResponsibility #Diversity #Progress

Women's rites? Lose your Pro-Choice religion and progressive liberal ideology. The wicked solution is a first-order forcing of catastrophic anthropogenic climate change. #HateLovesAbortion

n.n said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Jeff said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
n.n said...

A front hole, a back hole, a top hole. Sex education because boys and girls are simple. PP for exoneration. A Pro-Choice religion. A Twilight faith. Mortal gods and goddesses. A wicked solution. A progressive path.

Jeff said...

I have not once seen any mention of waiting until marriage as a means of staying out of trouble.

That's because it's not a very good idea. I know a woman who waited until marriage, only to discover on her wedding night that her new husband was an asshole in bed who was rough and cared only about getting himself off. She got pregnant from that first encounter and since she was sincerely pro-life, she stayed in a miserable marriage for many years. You might think that in this day and age, every man knows how to please a woman in bed, but some guys just don't care. You don't actually know what someone is going to be like in bed until you get there.

Kirk Parker said...

MadMan,

That's funny, I have no problem visualizing Orenstein's "thought" process as a veritable whirlwind of ideas, spinning out of control... It's a Category 5 storm in there!

Kirk Parker said...

Please, please.... whoever it is who owns the n.n bot, could you please send it back for reprogramming? The best of the pomo essay generators are quite funny, in small doses, but the current version of software running on n.n just puts out in comprehensible nothings. It's the worst of all possible crimes-in-writing: it's boring.

Kirk Parker said...

Jeff, and this fellow gave not the slightest hint of his assholery in any other realm? In all other aspects he was a perfectly respectful, kind, considerate, generous, helpful person?


Consider me massively skeptical...

Jeff said...

Kirk, have you ever known an actual psychopath? Some of them can really fool you.

Kirk Parker said...

That seems like a non-explanation explanation.

Of course psychopaths can fool people; but that certainly extends to behavior in sex before marriage, too.

Jeff said...

Not as easily. If sex is the thing you are really weird about, you can cover most stuff up but not that. But your mileage may vary, I grant you. Men have complained since time began that an awful lot of women seem to lose interest in sex as soon as they manage to snag a husband.

Kirk Parker said...

Jeff: exactly. E.g.

Q: How do you stop a JAP from having sex?

A: Put a ring on her finger.

wholelottasplainin' said...

Back in the Jurassic, when I was a teen, it was a rare thing for a high school guy to "get any."

That changed a bit in college, but at least among my friends we simply didn't talk about any girls we had sacked out with. No bragging about conquests;' it was simply considered UN-gentlemanly to do so.

It was only after graduating did I learn a term that some coeds used, which was for them to "jump" a guy, IOW to be the sexual aggressor.

Alas, it never happened to me....

wholelottasplainin' said...

If wymyn are supposedly being urged to exercise restraint, then why the fuck are they all urged to take the Pill so they don't have to?

Hercules, not that one though said...

I never asked a girl if I could kiss her. Of all the girls I kissed, only one didn't want me to kiss her. I got it, immediately. I read it wrong. Did not hate her, girls let you know without screaming. We finished a delightful dinner. The thing is...the 'Women's Movement' of the 60's was not about women. It was about lesbians. Patty Ireland, founder of NOW. BTW Ann, in High School your skirt was too short. We men and women do this dance together. There is the Prime Directive of nature...reproduce. Modesty mitigates that. Women will however express their power...mini-skirts and tube tops. For men it's a two-tiered thing. I want to have sex with this girl...I want to protect her. I think we are better people when we get old. Too soon old, Too late smart. Who wouldn't want to see a young Althouse in a mini-skirt? Who wouldn't want to see ANY female in a miniskirt? Ann, I'm glad you found your Meade. He doesn't post enough.

n.n said...

Kirk Parker:

What, exactly, is your argument? A complaint with an empathetic appeal is empty.

n.n said...

There isn't a new masculinity. There isn't a new femininity. Even the transgender spectrum (e.g. homosexual) is old. There is a lack of self-moderation and progress that has forced divergence that coincides with social liberalization. There is social, political, and economic causes that are dividing men and women for the sake of social progress, medical progress, democratic leverage, taxable revenue, and corporate profits. It a new religion (i.e. behavioral protocol), an old faith (i.e. conflation of logical domains), and mortal gods, with the same secular motives.

n.n said...

young men are still subject to incessant messages that sexual conquest... remains the measure of a 'real' man...

The message varies by religion and ideology. Debasing human life for liberal (e.g. social) and progressive (e.g. chauvinistic) causes is a risk factor.