Althouse: At the Saturday Night Cafe...

January 4, 2020

At the Saturday Night Cafe...

... you can talk all night.

293 comments:

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chickelit said...: Maybe they're whispering about Suleimani's villas

Suleimani may be an Islamic martyr, but the best he can muster these days is "talk to the hand."; 1/4/20, 11:24 PM
narciso said...: Obama wanted and still wants to burn this country down, the soviets were out of the picture by the time he was professionam age so china and islamist including iran wrre the next best thing. The saudis were trusting him till he pushed mubarak out. He found new allies with turkey and qatar as well as iran.; 1/4/20, 11:24 PM
Inga said...: “Suleimani may be an Islamic martyr, but the best he can muster these days is "talk to the hand."”

OK that’s funny.; 1/4/20, 11:25 PM
J. Farmer said...: The schools and the media are the fifth cimumn, but you dont really care about whar they are teaching the 1619 project is just the most recent example.

Your mind-reading is as good as your English.; 1/4/20, 11:26 PM
walter said...: " And his blinders as to Green Energy made the Saudis and Iranians oil more valuable (and Russia)."
Tilting at windmills? Do tell.; 1/4/20, 11:26 PM
narciso said...: They cant really find a puppet who will allow them to continue the project, slo jo, dances with law review mayor howdy come on.; 1/4/20, 11:27 PM
J. Farmer said...: @walter:

It would seem ability to "do business with Iran" is tied to the dynamic.
I am not aware of "Death to France" chants.
Oh, right..merely "political".
Someone should have informed Soilyman

Yeah, to do business with a country you need to accept the legitimacy of their government and stop trying to overthrow them. That would be a much better strategy than the dumb regime change one we've been pursuing for years now.; 1/4/20, 11:28 PM
Qwinn said...: I doubt Iran has forgotten that we once sank half of their operational navy practically overnight, and only lost a single helicopter ourselves.; 1/4/20, 11:29 PM
J. Farmer said...: slo jo, dances with law review mayor howdy come on.

100 bucks to the first person who can decipher this.; 1/4/20, 11:30 PM
walter said...: Tell that to their citizens.; 1/4/20, 11:30 PM
mccullough said...: Narcisco,

Saudi Arabia is not the US friend. They have caused more destruction to US than any country since Japan at Pearl Harbor.

Iran had nothing to do with 9/11. Nothing.

Neither did Iraq.

Saudi Arabia.

Our shitty Middle East policy didn’t start with Obama. He wasn’t nearly as bad as W was on the Middle East.; 1/4/20, 11:30 PM
narciso said...: They continue to do business with north korea, who has made their intentions plain, i think moon jae un is too trusting.i really dont see much hope re these other deals with the kimdynast.
He got used to the bribes and hes still a commie thug at the end of the day.; 1/4/20, 11:32 PM
Seeing Red said...: BTW, does Trump now have a portrait of Jefferson in the Oval Office where Jackson used to be? I ask b/c I believe that TJ was the first POTUS to recognize the savage nature of radical Islam.

It wasn’t radical. It’s just par for the course.

From JOHN ADAMS And THOMAS JEFFERSON

Grosvenor Square, 28 March 1786

Sir,

Soon after the arrival of Mr. J. in London, we had a conference with the Ambassador of Tripoli, at his House.

The amount of all the information we can obtain from him was that a perpetual peace was in all respects the most advisable because a temporary treaty would leave room for increasing demands, upon every renewal of it, and a stipulation for annual payments would be liable to failures of performance which would renew the war, repeat the negotiations and continually augment the claims of his nation and the difference of expense would by no means be adequate to the inconvenience, since 12,500 Guineas to his Constituents with 10 per Cent upon that sum for himself, must be paid if the treaty was made for only one year.

That 30,000 Guineas for his Employers and £3,000 for himself were the lowest terms upon which a perpetual peace could be made and that this must be paid in Cash on the delivery of the treaty signed by his sovereign, that no kind of Merchandize could be accepted.
That Tunis would treat upon the same Terms, but he could not answer for Algiers or Morocco.

We took the liberty to make some inquiries concerning the Grounds of their pretentions to make war upon Nations who had done them no Injury, and observed that we considered all mankind as our friends who had done us no wrong, nor had given us any provocation.
The Ambassador answered us that it was founded on the Laws of their prophet, that it was written in their Koran, that all nations who should not have acknowledged their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could take as Prisoners, and that every musselman who should be slain in battle was sure to go to Paradise.

That it was a law that the first who boarded an Enemy's Vessell should have one slave more than his share with the rest, which operated as an incentive to the most desperate Valour and Enterprize, that it was the Practice of their Corsairs to bear down upon a ship, for each sailor to take a dagger in each hand, and another in his mouth, and leap on board, which so terrified their Enemies that very few ever stood against them. That he verily believed the Devil assisted his Countrymen, for they were almost always successful. We took time to consider and promised an answer, but we can give him no other than that the demands exceed our Expectations and that of Congress so much that we can proceed no further, without fresh instructions.

There is but one possible way, that we know of to procure the money, if Congress should authorize us to go to the necessary expense and that is to borrow it in Holland. We are not certain it can be had there. But if Congress should order us to make the best terms we can with Tunis, Tripoli, Algiers, and Morocco, and to procure this money wherever we can find it, when terms like those of the last loan in Holland, our best endeavours shall be used to remove this formidable obstacle out of the way, of the prosperity of the United States.
Inclosed is a Copy of a letter from P. R. Randall Esqr. at Barcelona. The last from Mr. Barclay was dated Bayonne. It is hoped we shall soon have news from Algiers and Morocco, and we wish it may not be more disagreable than this from Tunis and Tripoli.

We are etc.
J.A.
T.J.

Some times we pay the Danegeld, sometimes we send in the Marines.; 1/4/20, 11:32 PM
J. Farmer said...: @Qwinn:

I doubt Iran has forgotten that we once sank half of their operational navy practically overnight, and only lost a single helicopter ourselves.

As I said earlier, "half of their operational navy" consisted of a single frigate, a single destroyer, and a couple of speedboats.; 1/4/20, 11:32 PM
J. Farmer said...: @walter:

Tell that to their citizens.

As opposed to the citizens of several other authoritarian regimes that we do billions and billions of dollars worth of trade with every year?; 1/4/20, 11:33 PM
walter said...: It's a grand notion that Iran would be a good li'l world citizen if not for that beastly wolf USA.; 1/4/20, 11:33 PM
mccullough said...: Slow Jo = Biden. Dances with Law Review = Warren. Mayor Howdy = Buttigieg.

Reading narcisco is like being stoned in a Chinese restaurant. You sorta can follow what they are saying, but not really.; 1/4/20, 11:34 PM
narciso said...: Biden warren and buttigeg, the latter is the obama braintrusts favorite.

The qatari lobbies pining for poor khashoggi, because he also sees democracy as a one time thing.; 1/4/20, 11:35 PM
narciso said...: All of them, where has the comb lady been hanging out, prince salman kind of like the shah is a reformer in a hurry.; 1/4/20, 11:38 PM
walter said...: Iran tends to reach far beyond Iran..kinda have a terrorist thing going on.

But whatevs..they deserve benefit of the doubt.
Cheers!; 1/4/20, 11:38 PM
J. Farmer said...: @walter:

It's a grand notion that Iran would be a good li'l world citizen if not for that beastly wolf USA.

Except that isn't the notion. Is Turkey "a good li'l world citizen?" They're in NATO. Is Saudi Arabia "a good li'l world citizen?" They give money and guns to Al Qaeda groups in Syria and Yemen. Is China "a good li'l world citizen?" They are increasing tensions in the South China Sea with their territorial claims. Does anyone think that if we have closed our embassies, cut off diplomatic relations, and ceased all trade with these countries, they'd all become "good li'l world citizens?"; 1/4/20, 11:39 PM
Inga said...: “Reading narcisco is like being stoned in a Chinese restaurant. You sorta can follow what they are saying, but not really.”

Aw you guys ought to learn some Narciscan.; 1/4/20, 11:39 PM
J. Farmer said...: @mccullough:

Reading narcisco is like being stoned in a Chinese restaurant. You sorta can follow what they are saying, but not really.

Yeah, even with that translation (thank you by the way), I'm still at a loss. But I guess I owe you a hundred dollars. Hit me up next time you find yourself in west Florida.; 1/4/20, 11:42 PM
chickelit said...: Inga said...Aw you guys ought to learn some Narciscan

That requires serious self-reflection.; 1/4/20, 11:44 PM
narciso said...: Its clear enough, race isnt the issue, its appreciation of western civilization. Why sanders could never be an answer to any question,; 1/4/20, 11:45 PM
walter said...: You have a knack for false equivalencies.
Are our embassies there being overrun? Airport delivering chief architects of regional terror(ists)?; 1/4/20, 11:47 PM
narciso said...: Honestly what was the point of voting for stein, shes a moonbat of adifferent overcoat; 1/4/20, 11:48 PM
William said...: The war between Iran and Iraq lasted for years. Despite the fact that Iran used such innovative tactics as sending their children to clear mine fields, the Iranians were never able to achieve anything other than a stalemate. By way of contrast, the United States was able to defeat the Iraqi army in one hundred hours.....I think this bit of history might be a factor in the decision making process of the Iranians. On the other hand, they did send their children to clear mine fields so maybe they will do something stupendously stupid...I don't know how things will play out. It might start a war or maybe the disaffected will rise up in Iran. Who can say? At any event, Suleimani cannot be considered the winner in his last engagement with western forces.; 1/4/20, 11:50 PM
Inga said...: “Inga said...Aw you guys ought to learn some Narciscan.

That requires serious self-reflection.”

At least you have a sense of humor and a way with words.; 1/4/20, 11:50 PM
narciso said...: Biden was a soviet stooge unt the end? Then his son became one for the oligarchs and the princelings.; 1/4/20, 11:51 PM
Inga said...: “Honestly what was the point of voting for stein, shes a moonbat of adifferent overcoat.”

I regret it! I should’ve voted for Clinton, like Althouse did.; 1/4/20, 11:52 PM
narciso said...: The world is much more absurd that 45 years ago.

https://youtu.be/C-M2hs3sXGo

A lesson the good general should have observed; 1/4/20, 11:54 PM
narciso said...: You know where the quds force has at least one of its training centers, the old anerican embassy.; 1/4/20, 11:56 PM
William said...: Narciso has an impressive store of knowledge, but his utterances are gnomic. They're spelled from the sibyl's leaves. Perhaps we're not meant to understand their import. They're there for a different audience than the commenters.; 1/4/20, 11:57 PM
narciso said...: American, which figures since it was won by what can be called an act of war.; 1/4/20, 11:58 PM
J. Farmer said...: @walter:

You have a knack for false equivalencies.
Are our embassies there being overrun? Airport delivering chief architects of regional terror(ists)?

How many Americans had the Chinese killed when Nixon shook hands with Mao and pursued the opening to China?

And as for "chief architects of regional terror," where would you put the Saudi and Emirati creation of ISIS on that list?; 1/4/20, 11:58 PM
narciso said...: About 70,000 between korean and vietnam wars either through troops or supply caravans; 1/4/20, 11:59 PM
Inga said...: Maybe Trump should look deeply into that Saudi orb again to see how his little war with Iran will turn out.; 1/5/20, 12:01 AM
narciso said...: Im not a fan of the embrace of mao, which made us partially responsible for the khmer rouge. But china had been weakened by its latest disenboweling at the time.; 1/5/20, 12:02 AM
narciso said...: Maybe as severely as the taiping rebellion) Had in the mid 19th century; 1/5/20, 12:06 AM
chickelit said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 1/5/20, 12:08 AM
chickelit said...: Inga said...At least you have a sense of humor and a way with words.

Hairstyle remind you of anyone? Iran, So Far Away; 1/5/20, 12:08 AM
William said...: I'm reading the Manchester biography of Churchill. Churchill made any number of bad decisions, but for pure bone headed, dense stupidity there was no one to top Chamberlain. Chamberlain offered to give back Germany's pre-war African colonies and,as an added sweetener,the Belgian Congo and Angola. He thought that this would ameliorate Hitler's resentments and lead to lasting peace.....Sometimes a gentle, conciliatory gesture such as Chamberlain offered does not lead to lasting peace....On the other hand, some of Churchill's more bellicose moves also backfired.....History doesn't repeat itself, and it doesn't even rhyme. It's all free verse and imagery. The meaning is fluid....We'll see what happens, and it won't be what anyone predicts. There's definitely an upside to killing Suleimani. The downside is yet to be determined.; 1/5/20, 12:08 AM
narciso said...: Honestly the left even the dimwit movie ans tv producers are ruining everything ive seen two films this year. E, ndgame and ford vs ferrari. They are ruining doctor who which ive been a fan of since 1978, the bond films even farther back.; 1/5/20, 12:10 AM
narciso said...: I didnt recall he was that foolish, one though a birmingham industrialist would know better.; 1/5/20, 12:12 AM
narciso said...: Same with star trek although the first film i saw in 1980 on a plane sans ear phones was maddening.; 1/5/20, 12:14 AM
chickelit said...: William said...I'm reading the Manchester biography of Churchill.

Did you happen to read his "Arms Of Krupp"?

I did -- before I befriended one the Krupp scions in Switzerland. He was impressed with my knowledge of his family. Of course he had his quibbles with Manchester's take. But all in all, it told me that WM got history mostly right.; 1/5/20, 12:15 AM
narciso said...: Well he was a very diligent researcher, i read one of his last about the beginning of the renaissance.; 1/5/20, 12:27 AM
J. Farmer said...: So I just read Tom Friedman's take on the Soleimani killing. It is mind-blowingly stupid, even by the standards of Friedman. The guy really is a testament to just how far mediocrity, ignorance, and hubris can take you. One way to quickly craft a halfway decent middle east strategy would be to take whatever advice Friedman gives and do the exact opposite.; 1/5/20, 12:28 AM
narciso said...: Well hes been wrong since 1982, so its parfir the course. He hates the likud just like you.; 1/5/20, 12:30 AM
J. Farmer said...: Well he was a very diligent researcher, i read one of his last about the beginning of the renaissance.

Yeah, A World Lit Only by Fire. I remember that being a good book, but I know medievalists hate it.; 1/5/20, 12:31 AM
William said...: I read the Arms of Krupp years ago. The only thing I remember from the book is that the younger generation were kind of decadent. Something about a murder. Worse than Hunter or even the Kennedy's.....The Doctor Who series with Jenna Coleman was the best. Jenna has a Princess Leia or Dorothy vibe. She's the kind of girl you want to travel with on your journey to save the world and, on occasion, the cosmos. The trouble with the more recent Star wars adventures is that Natalie Portman and Daisy Ridley are just not fun sidekicks.; 1/5/20, 12:32 AM
Ray - SoCal said...: I heard him speak on a book tour, and I was not impressed.

A+ Comment, but the circle jerk one is the thread winner.

>The guy really is a testament to just how far mediocrity, ignorance, and hubris
>can take you.; 1/5/20, 12:34 AM
J. Farmer said...: Well hes been wrong since 1982, so its parfir the course. He hates the likud just like you.

I have no feelings about the Likud one way or another. Hell, if I was an Israeli, I'd probably vote for them. But it's not my country, and it's none of my business. My only interest is that (a) we don't get involved in trying to mediate peace; and (b) we don't give any of them a dime of taxpayer money; 1/5/20, 12:35 AM
narciso said...: Yes shes a pill, which means thor love and thunder is gonna blow. They tried to recapture carrie fishers charisma but failed miserably.; 1/5/20, 12:36 AM
narciso said...: I grew up on the tom baker series, sarah jane snith was more a sober character than say laila ward.; 1/5/20, 12:38 AM
J. Farmer said...: The trouble with the more recent Star wars adventures is that Natalie Portman and Daisy Ridley are just not fun sidekicks.

Plus Carrie was a ravaging beauty. They styled Daisy Ridley like some kind of irritable bull dyke.; 1/5/20, 12:39 AM
narciso said...: They used to be on pbs, now the pluto bloc offers a good cross section.; 1/5/20, 12:40 AM
narciso said...: Yes indeed, and she was a sharp fire cracker, its such a shame that her life took such a dark turn at the end.; 1/5/20, 12:42 AM
Narayanan said...: Blogger Ken B said...
Trump's 52 threat is good I think. Magnificent signal ...
____&&&&+++++
That he has full Deck.
No more talk of 25A; 1/5/20, 12:43 AM
chickelit said...: The only thing I remember from the book is that the younger generation were kind of decadent. Something about a murder.

Arndt? -- Versager He pissed everything away. Keith Richards met him in Morocco and claimed Krupp's car almost ran his off a cliff. I guess that counts as a near murder.; 1/5/20, 12:45 AM
J. Farmer said...: Sorry, ravishing beauty. I would delete it, but "ravaging beauty" is a pretty funny typo.; 1/5/20, 12:45 AM
narciso said...: I guess star wars and too an extent indiana jones worked because it was fresh to the audience. A respite from the bleak future you see represented by say avatar.; 1/5/20, 12:46 AM
Ray - SoCal said...: Trump seems to be continually to attack QODS Leadership in Iraq, Syria, and Yemen. The ones attacked seem to have American Blood on their hands. Unfortunately their is a lack of information publicly available.

Due to Fracking, the closing of the Gulf would hurt China and Europe a lot more than the US, since we are an exporter. It could actually help the US Economy. The attack against the Saudi Refinery facilities was a strategic failure, and resulted in a minimal increase in the price of oil.

If Iraq asks the US to leave, Trump will leave. A win for Trump. And if the US stays their, Iranian proxies will continued to be targeted.

If Iran directly attacks US forces, Iran will be directly attacked.

Iranian Proxies, if they attack past a certain amount, may result in an attack that would devastate the Iranian Economy. And also hit the regime forces in Iran. This may actually be a danger to the regime, or it may help them. If it's seen as a response to an Iranian Government Provocation, and Trump is trying really hard to put the money on Iran's back, the US response will probably endanger the regime.

Iran has a huge amount of missiles and Drones. They have been partnering with North Korea on Missile Development.

If a US Carrier goes into the Persian Gulf, it's a huge target.

There seems to be only 1 US carrier in the area right now. 3 in Japan.; 1/5/20, 12:49 AM
J. Farmer said...: I guess star wars and too an extent indiana jones worked because it was fresh to the audience. A respite from the bleak future you see represented by say avatar.

I think that's pretty accurate. There was certainly a period of nostalgia in the late 1970s for a simpler, happier time. There was a big interest in 50's culture typified by shows like Happy Days. Star Wars and Raiders were both throwbacks to old 1930s adventure pics.; 1/5/20, 12:50 AM
narciso said...: Which they are giving us four of thoze.; 1/5/20, 12:50 AM
narciso said...: Well that was tv, in the movies you had french connection, the god
father saga, there was the irwin allen series.; 1/5/20, 12:52 AM
Narayanan said...: Blogger mccullough said...
Slow Jo = Biden. Dances with Law Review = Warren. Mayor Howdy = Buttigieg.

Reading narcisco is like being stoned in a Chinese restaurant
____&&&&+++++
By Jove you have got it.
Achieve same state as Narciso when he comments.; 1/5/20, 12:52 AM
narciso said...: One series which they will probably never adapt is harry harrisons stainless steel rat, a variation on peter quill or malcolm reynolds maybe pratt or reynolds could be enticed. Fillion is too old; 1/5/20, 12:58 AM
narciso said...: Probably, now according to the second volune its set about 25,000 years in the future.; 1/5/20, 12:59 AM
narciso said...: Vorkosigian would be interesting perhaps as a limited series; 1/5/20, 1:01 AM
Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 1/5/20, 1:03 AM
William said...: I read the Friedman column. It was informative. I did not know that the Iraqi Shiites had burned down two Iranian consulates. Also, the Friedman column was the first negative evaluation of Suleimani's strategic skills, I have read. This whole thing may play out in unexpected ways....Events don't happen according to any laws of morality, logic, or causality. They just happen. I guess it's possible that someday there will be good news out of the Middle East and someone there will act in their rational self interest....I think every adventure movie should have an damsel worth rescuing. I guess what with feminism they have to have a few kick ass moves, but they need to be cute and appealing, and it takes all the fun out of the adventure if they're the one who keeps rescuing the hero.; 1/5/20, 1:08 AM
Jon Ericson said...: So, Smug and the Nazi finally overcome by the soma?; 1/5/20, 1:10 AM
Jon Ericson said...: Or undertaken I should say.; 1/5/20, 1:22 AM
Crazy World said...: Just getting started on all these comments but what another beautiful day in Paradise. Much Aloha to all; 1/5/20, 1:25 AM
J. Farmer said...: Mahalo; 1/5/20, 1:26 AM
Crazy World said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 1/5/20, 1:29 AM
Crazy World said...: Ha big Mike, right on; 1/5/20, 2:19 AM
Ken B said...: If Natalie Portman played a doorpost she'd be too stiff.; 1/5/20, 4:31 AM
Ken B said...: Farmer 11:30
Translation: “Biden, Warren, Buttigieg — losers!”; 1/5/20, 4:32 AM
Bruce Hayden said...: Interesting discussion tonight about former Quds commander Suleimani.

One question I was asking myself was, why was his fully justified execution so problematic, after Obama had made summary executions of enemy commanders by drone attacks routine? Why didn't any of these Trump critics criticize Obama for his more vigorous application of this tactic, back when he was CIC?

My guess there, for a lot of those critics, is that the problem is that Suleimani was Iranian, thus Shi'a, and not Sunni, allied with Saudi Arabia. I think that the last couple years in office showed fairly obviously Obama's preferences in that millennium old schism. It bothered me that he had, essentially switched sides during his term in office. He was raised, for awhile, Sunni, and bowed when initially meeting the Saudi King. By the end, he had entered into a toothless pretend treaty with Iran, which continued killing Anerican troops in te ME, immediately violated the pretend treaty, which Obama rewarded by shipping them pallets of unmarked cash in the middle of the night. Meanwhile he was executing non Uranian terrorist commanders with drone attacks on a fairly regular basis.

My theory is that Barack Obama II was an anticolonialist, attempting to follow in the footsteps of his putative father, Barack Obama, Sr, as well as carrying out the revolution fought a generation or so earlier by his Weatherman mentors Ayers and Dohrn. And he discovered that the Iranians were more pure, and less willing to compromise in their fight against western colonialism. Or it could have just been the presence of Persianophile Valarie Jarrett in his inner circle.

In any case, it was fairly obvious to that Obama had take sides, and was utilizing a double standard when it came to droning terrorist commanders.

We saw in the Deep State attack on Trump over his call with the Ukrainian President, that Obama people were still trying to run foreign policy from within the NSC, CIA, and State Dept hearing three years into Trump's Administration. I think that a lot of the criticizism of Trump authorizing the drone hit on Suleimani was of similar origin, embedded Obama Deep State people butt hurt about Trump's reversal of Obama's signature foreign policy achievement- switching the US from siding with Sunni Saudi Arabia to siding with Shiite Iran.; 1/5/20, 6:20 AM
Bruce Hayden said...: I should add that part of what influenced my thoughts there was a result of an article in the NYT cited in a Reason article that criticized Trump's attack on the Quds commander. Two supposedly well placed anonymous sources supposedly told the NYT author that the decision making was chaotic, and the decision has short sighted. This rang of the same sort of Deep State sabatogueing that we saw with the Ukrainian phone call. President Trump didn't utilize the proper bureaucratic processes, controlled of course by the Deep State bureaucrats, when conducting foreign policy. He supposedly didn't take into proper account all of the risks his action might entail. And that is probably why Trump's three immediate predecessors in the White House were offered opportunities to take out Suleimani, and passed.

I do wonder if the Deep State bureaucrats were effectively cut out of the decision making this time, because of how their brethren attempted to do to Trump with his Ukrainian telephone call. I think that this is strongly suggested by their complaint that the decision making was "chaotic". We have heard that complaint before from the Deep State, and it inevitably turns out that he had not properly (from their point of view) deferred to their expertise.

Maybe the Deep State bureaucrats are right that Trump made the world more dangerous for the US and its citizenry. Or maybe their advice to leave Suleimani alone was biased by Obama's swing from the Saudis to the Iranians colored their advice. That the issue was not whether or not Suleimani and his Quds were dangerous to this country, but rather that they really didn't believe that they were evil. And, not being evil,nthe Ir attacks on us were probably justified. Something like that.

For the most part, I think that Trump sees through the bureaucratic BS. But he is a risk taker, and this gamble (that the Iranians can't hurt us that much, and we can hurt them a lot worse) may not be a winning bet. He may be risking reelection. But this may, instead, permanently change Iran's position in the world, to our advantage. We shall see.; 1/5/20, 6:57 AM
mockturtle said...: Mccullough observes: I see no reason why we are friends with the Saudis but have some huge problem with the Iranians. The Wahhabism/Salafism that Saudi Arabia exported as much as its oil is a lot worse than anything Iran did to the US.

Agree. This romance with the Saudis has got to stop.; 1/5/20, 7:14 AM
Nichevo said...: J. Farmer said...
slo jo, dances with law review mayor howdy come on.

100 bucks to the first person who can decipher this.

1/4/20, 11:30 PM

Biden, Warren, Buttigieg, did I win?; 1/5/20, 8:35 AM
Big Mike said...: @Crazy World, thank you, but which comment did you appreciate? The one where I suggested the Ravens borrow an Abrams tank so they can practice tackling Derrick Henry?

@Bruce Hayden, your usual thoughtful analysis.; 1/5/20, 9:16 AM
Michael K said...: The Wahhabism/Salafism that Saudi Arabia exported as much as its oil is a lot worse than anything Iran did to the US.

Agree. This romance with the Saudis has got to stop.

I missed where the Saudis held our diplomats for 444 days.

I have no brief for the Saudis but I don't see how the government attacked us. Klaus Fuchs stole the atomic bomb secrets and gave them to Stalin. Does that mean we should have nothing to do with Britain ?; 1/5/20, 10:45 AM
Michael K said...: We saw in the Deep State attack on Trump over his call with the Ukrainian President, that Obama people were still trying to run foreign policy from within the NSC, CIA, and State Dept hearing three years into Trump's Administration. I think that a lot of the criticizism of Trump authorizing the drone hit on Suleimani was of similar origin, embedded Obama Deep State people butt hurt about Trump's reversal of Obama's signature foreign policy achievement- switching the US from siding with Sunni Saudi Arabia to siding with Shiite Iran.

Exactly. We have a discussion over at Chicagoboyz with out the lefty handwringers.; 1/5/20, 10:50 AM
mockturtle said...: I have no brief for the Saudis but I don't see how the government attacked us.

Many do see it: Saudi involvement in 9/11; 1/5/20, 11:24 AM
Marc in Eugene said...: An interesting thread. Skimmed it and so if I've misunderstood, I'm sure I'll be corrected.

Farmer is one of the commenters here who gets a star so far as I'm concerned, as is Narciso. Whether I agree with this or that argument etc doesn't matter.

Was it really intended to suggest that native-born Americans' opinions on the confrontation with Iran etc are in themselves more insightful etc (I don't remember the specific terms) than those of foreign-born Americans? That's what my skimming garn-- gathered, understood. I ought to go back and re-read the thread but, eh, it is a comments thread on a blog post. There will be others, and on the same subject.; 1/5/20, 11:41 AM
Bruce Hayden said...: I think that the romance with the Saudis has essentially ended, and they are rapidly moving into being a client state of ours, so different from when Obama bowed to their king roughly a decade ago during his worldwide apology tour. Saudi Arabia, along with Egypt, has become almost a de facto ally of Israel, thanks in no small part to Trump son-in-law Jered Kushner, and his personal relationship with reformer Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman (MBS). The apparent execution of Jamal Khashoggi, who had close ties to OBL and the Muslim Brotherhood, by a faction loyal to MBS, appears to have been part of the Saudi realignment. This execution, probably well deserved from the US point of view, may have been a step too far by MBS, shown by the conviction of five participants in the execution a couple months ago. But he still is the Saudi Crown Prince, and his reforms still seem to be ongoing. And one of his targets has been the funding of terrorism around the world by ultra rich Saudis, with Khashoggi one of the faces of this.

The almost de facto alliance of Egypt, Israel, and Saudi Arabia, allied against Iranian/Shiite funded and orchestrated violent attacks, seems to be working. Unprovoked violence by Sunni Muslims seems greatly reduced. We shall see how long this works.; 1/5/20, 11:43 AM
Bruce Hayden said...: "Was it really intended to suggest that native-born Americans' opinions on the confrontation with Iran etc are in themselves more insightful etc (I don't remember the specific terms) than those of foreign-born Americans?"

Agree that it was a good thread, and that Farmer distinguished theirselves with their analysis.

The problem with analysis by native born Americans is that we are very parochial. Because we essentially believe that the world revolves our country, we tend to look at things from an Americancentric point of view. We miss a lot of the nuance between Sunni and Shi'a, tribal versus national, etc, a half a world away with people, many of whom seem rooted in the 7th Century. But it doesn't help our understanding when international news is reported to us heavily filtered by the rabid TDS of our MSM.; 1/5/20, 11:56 AM
Marc in Eugene said...: Agree entirely about our parochialism. A century ago, travel abroad helped ameliorate this but these days when 'travel abroad' so often means resorts, established tourist catchments etc where Americans get their 'news' via the local editions of the NYT, eh, just stay home and watch reality television and the MSM.

I remember that when Buwaya would begin to irritate (most often, from my point of view, when he struck a nerve about our self-centered culture), a few commenters would raise the canard about his audacity in making critical observations about the US while obstinately refusing to become a citizen.; 1/5/20, 12:16 PM