December 5, 2019

"North Korea has threatened to redeploy its arsenal of formidable insults against Donald Trump, referring to him once more as a 'dotard' if he continues to use nicknames like 'Rocket Man' for Kim Jong-un."

"The threat, issued by the first deputy foreign minister, Choe Son-hui, has a serious undertone. The last time the two leaders were exchanging epithets, their countries were on the brink of conflict, and North Korea was conducting nuclear and long-range missile tests...."

The Guardian reports.

117 comments:

DarkHelmet said...

Babylon Bee, right?

mccullough said...

Things not going so well for China.

rhhardin said...

NK has needed allies requiring him to support them. In particular undo the deal.

On his own he'd go with Trump.

The NK allies want something for themselves if NK makes a deal.

readering said...

Nobel Peace Prize campaign entering a new phase.

Curious George said...

"DarkHelmet said...
Babylon Bee, right?"

Althouse hates The Bee.

Mr Wibble said...

Half their insults have already defected to South Korea for the promise of a Big Mac and tapeworm removal.

henry said...

Since when do translated Asian insults even scan in English? OrangeManDotard? CowardlyPigDog? What could possibly be in Kim's "arsenal"?

Curious George said...

"The last time the two leaders were exchanging epithets, their countries were on the brink of conflict..."

What a steaming pile.

The Savage Noble said...

The French Knights of North Korea

The Cracker Emcee Refulgent said...

Monty Python in the realm of international relations. Hilarious. My God, Trump is fortunate in his enemies. The Guardian included.

mockturtle said...

Babylon Bee, right?

Just what I was thinking. ;-D

When Kim starts feeling left out of the headlines he is compelled to make some. Time for Trump to throw him a bone.

Dave Begley said...

The Norks think Trump has been weakened due to the impeachment scam. Thanks Dems!

Giant mistake. Trump wins in an Electoral College landslide.

Nonapod said...

Kim's all "Pay attention to me now!"

At any rate I'd rather he hurl insults than nuclear missiles.

Bay Area Guy said...

Ignoring the "filter" of the leftwing Guardian, as a general proposition, Yes, high level negotiations over nuclear weapons, should minimize personal insults of the two parties.

On the merits, though, Trump gets a lot of credit for his efforts to talk/negotiate/cajole the Norks to reduce their un-needed nuclear weapons.

The ongoing negotiations with China is more potent and dominant. It doesn't take a rocket scientist (no pun intended) to note that if US and China solve their trade issues, the Nork Nuke issues might just go bye-bye too.

Bill R said...

That's not true. He called him "Rocket Boy"

Skeptical Voter said...

Check Little Rocket Man's phone records. He's been talking to Adam Schiff, Eric Swalwell and Fat Jer Nadler. A guy always needs some new material and Running Dog of the Imperialist War Mongers is getting tired. Little Rocket Man knows he can get some new material from the Democrat side of the House.

I mean it's okay to look at Little Rocket Man's phone records. Pencil Neck Schiff has been surveilling the phone of Devin Nunes.

Birkel said...

China's economy is tanking. So they ask their attack rabbit to make threats. Kim is a wholly owned subsidiary of China.

It's very similar to East Germany making threats in the 1960s as if their Russian handlers weren't pulling the strings.

J. Farmer said...

@Bay Area Guys:

On the merits, though, Trump gets a lot of credit for his efforts to talk/negotiate/cajole the Norks to reduce their un-needed nuclear weapons.

There haven't really been negotiations. There has been the standard conventional approach of attempting to sanction NoKo into submission and offering some sanctions relief after NoKo has unilaterally disarmed, which they aren't going to do.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist (no pun intended) to note that if US and China solve their trade issues, the Nork Nuke issues might just go bye-bye too.

How?

dbp said...

GUARD: You don't frighten us, English pig-dogs! ---Go and boil your bottoms, sons of a silly person. I blow my nose at you, so-called Arthur-king, you and all your silly English knnnniggets. Thppppt!

GALAHAD: What a strange person.

ARTHUR: Now look here, my good man!

GUARD: I don't want to talk to you no more, you empty headed animal food trough wiper!...... I fart in your general direction! . Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries!

GALAHAD: Is there someone else up there we could talk to?

GUARD: No, now go away or I shall taunt you a second time-a!

Rick said...

The last time the two leaders were exchanging epithets, their countries were on the brink of conflict, and North Korea was conducting nuclear and long-range missile tests...."

Overheard in the production meeting:

"This is the best anti-Trump story we can come up with so we need a mechanism to convert insults into a "serious" matter. Anyone have any ideas?"

Lucid-Ideas said...

They throw bibimbap in his general direction! His mother was from Paektu Mountain, and his father smelt of CheongGukJang!

J. Farmer said...

@Bill R:

That's not true. He called him "Rocket Boy"

No

buwaya said...

Birkel is correct.
That "negotiation" is a full-spectrum conflict with China. NK is a Chinese tool and a bargaining point.

The notion that these things should be, or are, conducted quietly by professionals in conference rooms, restricted to technical matters of "trade" and finance, is idiotic. All pressure points are used, overt and covert, and in truth much more than tarriffs and trade policies are in the mix with China. Occupation of islands, naval construction, aid to and treatment of allies on either side, support for internal opponents, "human rights" rhetoric, etc. All is in that tacit mix. All is possible in the dance of the great powers.

mccullough said...

The US will negotiate with Kim’s successors.

narciso said...

Indeed they call it full spectrum warfare, military economic propaganda et al

Heartless Aztec said...

Kido Butai! The Japanese are paying close attention to the Norks and Red Chinese and have brought aircraft carriers back into their fleet. It's time for Japan to re-arm in a serious way that transcends the kabuki theater of Kim and DJT. It would be the responsible thing to do.

Darrell said...

Always trust the Guardian.

Something a smart person will never say.

Char Char Binks, Esq. said...

At least Trump isn't dog that needs to be beaten to death.

Ken B said...

Cue the Monty Python Doug Dinsdale sketch!

Paul said...

Just call him 'Chairman Runt'. Skip the Rocket part.

Simple, no?

narciso said...

Well you need to mine it, like with us papers, now the guardian still carries a torch for stalin and mao.

J. Farmer said...

Neither friend nor big brother: China’s role in North Korean foreign policy strategy

Leland said...

I mean turnabout is fair play, so go ahead.

GRW3 said...

So it come to "Harsh Letter to Follow". Wow, I'm sure Trump is devastated.

rehajm said...

...their two countries were on the brink of conflict...

Not actually in conflict but on the brink of it. That doesn't sound so bad...

Maillard Reactionary said...

What the Norks don't realize is that we've hacked into their insult database. The element of surprise has been lost, thus making them far less effective.

http://nk-news.net/extras/insult_generator.php

It will be a while before they can recover, since Dear Leader has to approve all new insults before they can be deployed. Writers of rejected insults are sent to reeducation camp to subsist on earthworms, tree bark, and very small rocks.

Narr said...

Kim is feeling ronery again!

Narr
Typical Grauniadian piffle

Birkel said...

Sure J Farmer.
Should I dig up some academic articles asserting Eastern Bloc countries were not under the thumb of Soviet masters?
Let's review how the PTB are always full of shit for reasons.

buwaya said...

J. Farmer,
These things happen behind closed doors.
They are not public, or rather what is public is meant to be public.
China and NK are perfectly capable of pretending to anything, including Chinese "sanctions".

pacwest said...

"sanctions relief after NoKo has unilaterally disarmed, which they aren't going to do."

That's the trouble with sanctions on NK. Kim and his Generals have plenty to eat and don't have the worry about an uprising of the general populace like Iran does. They aren't going to give up their nukes. Trump's options are limited to military force which isn't going to happen or... Can, meet road. Again.

I haven't heard much more about Trump threatening to pull our military out of SK unless they kick in some protection money. $4B I think. It wasn't received very well.

OT, but it seems like what makes for unrest is rising fuel prices, not so much totalitarianism. Go figure.

Iman said...

RocketMan so ronery...

Beasts of England said...

He’d give up his nuke program if we gave him an NBA franchise. It’s a win-win.

buwaya said...

China keeps NK hungry for a reason. The hungrier they are the more dependent they are on Chinese crumbs, and moreover it discourages NK from adventurism of the unlicensed sort.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

There is real danger in what the Democrats and Media are doing in their incessant undermining of the President of the United States.

A strong President has the power to sway and make deals with countries that have been our adversaries and competition. Trump has made great strides in dealing with both N. Korea and China. A strong leader who they perceive as being backed by the people and the government is more able to hammer out foreign policies.

By undermining and making it uncertain in the minds of the Norks and the Chinese, it makes them emboldened to ignore or worse threaten the United States.

This is dangerous financially in the case of the Chinese who have been waging economic war on the US for decades. This is especially dangerous in the case of North Korea who threatens nuclear war upon the United States, Japan and anyone else within their reach.

If we truly have a nuclear war or an economic depression due to the actions of the traitorous Democrats and Media....I think we, The People, are well justified to retaliate against our enemies. And I'm not talking about the N Koreans or Chinese.

In their blind hatred of Trump, they are going to bring us all to disaster. Are we going to let them?

tim in vermont said...

Dotard was pretty good. But they should keep it in reserve because if Biden should win, it will be on point.

Maillard Reactionary said...

Beasts of England: And if that doesn't work, offer them the whole NBA. An even bigger win for us.

Yessir, get those airliners all gassed up and ready to go.

FullMoon said...

Last time this happened, North Korea attacked Hawaii with nuke missiles.

How soon we forget !

BADuBois said...

Is this from The Babylon Bee?

FullMoon said...

If we truly have ...an economic depression due to the actions of the traitorous Democrats and Media....I think we, The People, are well justified to retaliate against our enemies. And I'm not talking about the N Koreans or Chinese.

In their blind hatred of Trump, they are going to bring us all to disaster. Are we going to let them?

Yes. We are not organized and media/dem spin will convince most it is Trumps fault.

I notice on some sites, angry people "cleaning their guns" and "stocking up on ammo". As if they will go out and do what? Shoot some Democrats or media people?

It is but to laugh.

Personally blessed with below average intelligence and public school education, I would never be so bold as to create a history of internet postings regarding guns and ammo in these days of being on the brink of red flag laws. Especially if my real name and location were readily available.

John henry said...

Last time Kim and pdjt were trading insults, pdjt inserted a Seal team.

They "earthquaked" the nuclear bunker, killed a bunch of scientists and techs.

Next thing we knew, Kim SAS making nice.

What will the next earthquake destroy? Maybe that huge white elephant tower in Pyongyang?

Ryuku hotel, I think it's called.

John Henry

Achilles said...

J. Farmer said...

How?

It is entertaining to watch you pretend North Korea is not a Chinese client state.

You are so arrogant that you create a world that conforms to your world view.

mockturtle said...

Heartless Aztec suggests: It's time for Japan to re-arm in a serious way that transcends the kabuki theater of Kim and DJT. It would be the responsible thing to do.

Yes. Certainly it would come under the allowable 'defense' stipulations. All they need is to dispel the pacifist mindset that has pervaded their culture since WWII and replace it with nationalistic fervor once again. They have enough trouble from weather and earthquakes and don't need threatening neighbors to worry about.

Howard said...

J Farmer: thanks for the Nature article... interesting background on the complex Post-War dance between China and North Korea.

Bay Area Guy said...

@Farmer,

Yeah, that nice geeky academic article you cited has some good points, but misses the big historical picture.

Summary: In 1950, we had the Korean War. The Commie North invaded the mostly-free Non-Commie South. They were winning. MacArthur made his famous landing at Inchon, and routed them. Now, we were winning. MacArthur said, let's march North and retake all of Korea, but then the Chinese Commies entered the fight and claimed much of the North. Hence, stalemate.

At bottom, the Norks are a failed, miserable vassal state dependent on China to keep them propped up. Does China want to keep them propped up? Probably not, but who knows? A lotta positive developments have occurred in Asia since 1952 (opening up China, starting and ending Vietnam War, protecting Taiwan, fall of Soviet Union, etc, etc.)


eddie willers said...

Ignoring the "filter" of the leftwing Guardian

When I finally found the quote from another source, I find out that it WASN'T an insult but a way to soft peddle the latest launches:

"I like him, he likes me..."

“He definitely likes sending up rockets, doesn’t he,” Trump said on the sidelines of the NATO summit, referring to Kim. “That’s why I call him Rocket Man."

No "Little", no "Boy" but that he likes to shoot off rockets. A sometimes "naughty boy" but they get along "very well".

Video: MSNBC

Dust Bunny Queen said...

The Norks and everyone else that is dealing with the US and Trump are emboldened by the chaos that the Dems are creating.

They (Norks etc) would far far rather deal with a soft mushey America hating Democrat or even better yet, corrupt ones like Biden, Hillary et etc.

So why should they deal with Trump now, if it looks like he might be on the skids. So nothing gets done.

Why shouldn't they also put their thumbs on the scales, meddle in the elections, to make sure they get the desired results....AKA an administration that they can walk all over or better yet, one that will actively be ON their side against the American people. All they have to do is just wait...or push to make what they want to happen happen.

Until we get this fiasco of Impeachment theater behind us....we are all in great danger.

J. Farmer said...

@Bay Area Guy:

Yeah, that nice geeky academic article you cited has some good points, but misses the big historical picture.

Nothing you wrote after that refuted anything that was written in the article. Was their a particular argument it made that you wish to take exception to?

Narayanan said...

Blogger eddie willers said...
Ignoring the "filter" of the leftwing Guardian

When I finally found the quote from another source...

“He definitely likes sending up rockets, doesn’t he,” Trump said on the sidelines of the NATO summit, referring to Kim. “That’s why I call him Rocket Man
___&&&&----
Kim = NKs Elon Musk

J. Farmer said...

@Birkel:

Sure J Farmer.
Should I dig up some academic articles asserting Eastern Bloc countries were not under the thumb of Soviet masters?
Let's review how the PTB are always full of shit for reasons.


As is so often that case with you, Birkel, I cannot refute an incredulous stare. First go and read the article and then come back and mouth off about how wrong it is.

richlb said...

I always thought the Trump nickname was "Little Rocket Man." That's more insulting.

J. Farmer said...

@buwaya:

J. Farmer,
These things happen behind closed doors.
They are not public, or rather what is public is meant to be public.
China and NK are perfectly capable of pretending to anything, including Chinese "sanctions".


Perhaps you can explain to us your sources of knowledge about the China-NoKo relationship and how it operates.

J. Farmer said...

@Achilles:

It is entertaining to watch you pretend North Korea is not a Chinese client state.

I've never said that. Try sticking to the arguments and not the strawmen you invent your mind.

You are so arrogant that you create a world that conforms to your world view.

I'd say that's a much more apt description of yourself than me. But perhaps you as well could explain to us your sources of knowledge for the China-North Korea relationship and how it operates.

Gabriel said...

As Harold Macmillan said, "Jaw, jaw is better than war, war."

I looked forward to North Korea deploying its advanced and fearsome stockpile of insults.

I'm just afraid it will lead to proliferation and retaliation of ever-more powerful insults, leading to unprecedented levels of butthurt.

J. Farmer said...

@Dust Bunny Queen:

Trump has made great strides in dealing with both N. Korea and China

What "great strides" have been made with North Korea?

stevew said...

Swords, at dawn, would be entertaining.

DBQ nails it.

Clyde said...

Oh, the first deputy foreign minister, Choek Son-Dik, is mad at us! Whatever shall we do?

Birkel said...

J Farmer,
If the assertion that North Korea is free to act without Chinese direction, you only deserve an incredulous stare.
They're no different that the Eastern Bloc states under Soviet dominion.

That is reality.

narciso said...

they have nearly as complex a history with china, as they do with japan, perhaps a little less antagonistic, meanwhile the uprising in Guangdong is interesting in historical terms, that was the base of the taiping rebellion, the kuomingtang's northern expedition, and the birthplace of sun yat sen,

bagoh20 said...

Exploding on the launch pad.

J. Farmer said...

@Birkel:

J Farmer,
If the assertion that North Korea is free to act without Chinese direction, you only deserve an incredulous stare.
They're no different that the Eastern Bloc states under Soviet dominion.

That is reality.


No it isn't. But by all means please provide us your sources for this claim.

Swede said...

Simmer down, Tubby.

Can Of Cheese for Hunter said...

If the US wanted to, and if it were possible, we could crush NoKo like a bug. Be nice if we had some 1st word NATO back up to do the job. Be nice if we could free the enslaved people and Potemkin Village of NoKo and energize it all to become like the huge success story of South Korea.

But that's not how the world works. Trump attempted to get Lil' Kim to stop launching missiles, and it worked for a while. Alas, Rocket Man is bored.

and he doesn't like the name-calling.

mockturtle said...

I've been reading about the Taiping Rebellion this week. Interesting era with hot/cold relations with the West. Prince Gong made a real muck-up of things and Lord Elgin was, as the colonialist Brits often were, condescending toward the Chinese dynasty. Will be reading of Empress Cixi's reign soon.

J. Farmer said...

"Second, even if China decides it is in its interest to restrain the North, is restraint possible? Probably not. The first hurdle the Chinese leadership would have to overcome is the internal politics of the Communist Party, within which traditionalists advocate continued support to North Korea.[5] If this political difficulty could be overcome, China would still lack the physical means to restrain the North. While China is the North’s principal ally, this is alliance is in name only.[6] The two have had repeated diplomatic spats and the lack of high level visits between the two suggests China has little soft power to wield against the North. Trade and sanctions are often touted as the main way China can exercise power over North Korea, as 90% of the country’s trade is with China. Additionally, China is the North’s main oil supplier, and despite new sanctions will still export up to “two million barrels of refined petroleum” to North Korea next year.[7] However, cutting off the North’s trade is not as easy as hoped, in fact many North Korean businesses operate clandestinely overseas furnishing the Kim regime with wealth.[8] Indeed, a mixture of illicit activities, like drug smuggling, combined with sending workers overseas has provided the regime with hidden revenue streams.[9] Furthermore, Russia could provide an alternative supply of oil or other goods to North Korea, perhaps in an attempt to complicate life for the U.S. or China, as Russia regards the later as a threat in the Far East.[10] Stopping this hidden economy, as well as the use of ransomware cyber attacks, would be very challenging, and efforts to date have only had a limited effect.[11] Moreover, severing outside trade would likely make the people more reliant on the Kim regime as its patronage will become even more important without outside wealth entering the country.

Even if it were possible to cut external oil supplies to North Korea, this is unlikely to restrain their behaviour. As Vladimir Putin recently said, the North Koreans would rather “eat grass” than relinquish their nuclear weapons.[12] Indeed, having witnessed the fates of Saddam Hussein and Muammar Gaddafi, it seems unlikely the North Korean leadership would give up their nuclear weapons under hostile pressure.[13] Moreover, the North Korean regime’s history of finding alternatives to oil, or simply going without, mean the impact of an oil embargo would be more limited than is often thought.[14] It is likely the North would have time to start using coal liquefaction as a replacement or instead exploit potential oil and liquid natural gas reserves in the North Korean territory.[15]"

-China Can’t Solve the North Korea Problem. So Who Can?

narciso said...

it's a very gory episode in their history, up to 20 million dead in current figures, it made them more susceptible to british pressure,

Can Of Cheese for Hunter said...

Can't we send Peter Strozk, FBI super-spy over to kill dictator kim?

Nah - our FBI and CIA are useless Clinton Rice Bowlers. Money money money.

Swede said...

I think he's a little sensitive about his weight.

Once you know the enemy's center of gravity, the war of insults will be over before you know it.

Troops home by Christmas.

Can Of Cheese for Hunter said...

J Farmer's link ends with:

"To conclude, looking to China for the solution on North Korea is flawed, as China lacks the means and motivation to address the current crisis. Instead the U.S. and South Korea must, from a position of strength, negotiate with the North Korean regime to reduce tensions on the Korean Peninsula. The alternatives are further sanctions, which are likely to fail, or military action, which would open a Pandora’s Box of war, instability, and possible proliferation of chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons."

shorter: There are no good solutions. There is not way out. Sanctions don't really work. But without the sanctions, we give No Ko more openings for further nuclear expansion.

Win-less situation. and yes China doesn't give a rip about NoKo. If the ChiComs are making money selling oil to NoKO, that's all they care about.
The ChiComs might take notice if NoKO posed a real danger. That real danger will be aimed
at South Korea first. The ChiComs do not care.

but remember- the ChiComs are our friends!

Howard said...

Do you mean Kim or Donald, Norge? Both have that classical corn-fed profile.

Roughcoat said...

Narciso: your figures are too low. The Taiping conflict was the proximate cause of some 40 million deaths -- perhaps more. We shall never know. Combat deaths and deaths from violence killed at least twice times 10 million. Famine and disease and the deprivations consequent thereto killed even more. After the Mongol Conquest it may have been the most destructive war in human history. The Great Leap Forward, a war waged by a state internally against its own people, may have exceeded the Taiping Rebellion's totals. The series of conflicts encompassing the Sino-Japanese War and the follow-on Chinese Civil War claimed uncounted and uncountable millions. The worst wars in human history in terms of sheer numbers of lives extinguihed were fought in Mainland Asia.

gilbar said...

SO an iowa voter said to Jo Biden...
One, is you’re damn near as old as I am. You’re too old. I’m 83 and I know damn well I don’t have the mental faculties I did [inaudible.]”

“Look, the reason I’m running is because I’ve been around a long time and I know more than most people and I can get things done,” Biden said. “And you want to check my shape? Let’s do push-ups together man, let’s run, let’s do whatever you wanna do.


y'all want to Think about THAT?
an 83 year old tells Jo, "you're damn near as old as I am"
And Jo Responds: "Let's do push-ups together man"!

Jo Biden BRAGS that he is in SUCH GREAT SHAPE, that he can do (nearly) as many pushups as an 83 year old

narciso said...

like I say truly devastating, and that is the conundrum, that xi faces if their current economic model fails, this is why he's been trying to replace it with his own personalism,

Roughcoat said...

Narciso: agreed.

In my recounting of Asian war death totals I forgot to mention Timur's conquests, which killed off about 5 percent of the world's population in a remarkably short time. 5 percent equates to about 17 million. In other words, he was a mere piker by the standard of Asian/Central Asian conquerors.

JohnAnnArbor said...

��

Birkel said...

My sources start with the million Chinese troopers who took over North Korea in 1950.

But you know, China has a history of taking over countries and just leaving .
They do it all the time.
Like in Tibet.

J. Farmer said...

@Birkel:

My sources start with the million Chinese troopers who took over North Korea in 1950.

But you know, China has a history of taking over countries and just leaving .
They do it all the time.
Like in Tibet.


And how does the August Incident of 1956 work with this theory?

tim in vermont said...

Maybe Joe Biden could go toe to to with him.

”Look fat, here’s the deal."

And check out the kid in the upper center when he says it, if you think its about the sound quality of the clip.

Howard said...

You're hitting rock bottom, Skylark Reminds me of that scene in Seinfeld where Kramer has the old Merv Griffin set and he's talking to Newman who earnestly explains how he just tears the labels off the generic cans and claims they taste the same as the brand names. Kramer then pulls the plug.




madAsHell said...

Remember when Trump tweeted his condolences to the Iranians after their rocket launcher mysteriously blew up. He said something to the effect of "Sorry to hear about your rocket launcher. I sure hope you figure out what happened."

What a Magnificent Bastard!!!

Achilles said...

China is under massive pressure right now.

The Hong Kong rebellion is spreading. The Chinese economy is foundering.

Kim is just doing what he is told to do. The aristocracy through their pet media is helping China because they are Trump's opponent.

That is all this is.

tim in vermont said...

" Kramer then pulls the plug.”

That kind of thought occupying your mind a lot old man? Topic was insults. I didn’t say it. Biden did. He is the real deal dotard, outshining even yourself in that category. His brain just got taken over by the fatness of the guy. Like when Austen Powers kept saying “mole!” in that movie. He’s too old, just like the guy said. And he has an emoluments problem, just like the guy said.

J. Farmer said...

@Achilles:

That is all this is.

And you know this how?

tim in vermont said...

I wish Iowa Fats had asked about Joe’s brother and the billion dollar plus contract he got for building housing in Iraq when he knew nothing about it. More emoluments.

Amadeus 48 said...

That is the most serious international development involving words as weapons of international diplomacy since the notorious Vowel Drop in the Balkans back in the nineties. The US rushed in millions of As, Es,Is, Os, and Us to the relief and admiration of the world.

Amadeus 48 said...

Peace in The Balkans followed soon after.

Howard said...

J Farmer: I think Achilles has family in Hong Kong so China is one area where he seems reasonably knowledgeable.

Howard said...

Oh now I get it. Skylark has a Louisville slugger shoved up his ass. you sound like a constitutional law professor litigating in front of the supreme Court over the fate of the Free world when in fact just an errand boy for grocery clerks to collect a bill

The Cracker Emcee Refulgent said...

Those heathen Chinee didn't pour across the Yalu because they seriously thought the US was going to launch a land invasion into China. China once let a foreign power dominate Korea. They didn't want it to happen again. Now, I don't have the top-secret intelligence to prove that Kim is a Chinese sock-puppet or that Beijing has control (covert or otherwise) of the Nork's nukes, but history and common sense strongly suggest that at least the latter is true. You're China, Asia's preeminent power. You're going to let the crackers in the trailer park down the street have the power to potentially destroy the neighborhood? Doubtful in the extreme.

J. Farmer said...

@Howard:

J Farmer: I think Achilles has family in Hong Kong so China is one area where he seems reasonably knowledgeable.

I certainly hope that is sarcasm, but in case it isn't: having family in Hong Kong does not give you any special knowledge on North Korea.

J. Farmer said...

@The Cracker Emcee Refulgent:

Now, I don't have the top-secret intelligence to prove that Kim is a Chinese sock-puppet or that Beijing has control (covert or otherwise) of the Nork's nukes, but history and common sense strongly suggest that at least the latter is true.

That's an argument from incredulity.

Howard said...

J Farmer:. That's where we differ I have a great respect for boots on the ground who collect random bits of data. I also appreciate the academic look at things as well. I think it's a big mistake to just rely on peer review and to ignore anecdotal evidence from normal people.

Obviously all of it needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

J. Farmer said...

@Howard:

J Farmer:. That's where we differ I have a great respect for boots on the ground who collect random bits of data. I also appreciate the academic look at things as well. I think it's a big mistake to just rely on peer review and to ignore anecdotal evidence from normal people.

Oh, I agree. I just don't consider having family in Hong Kong to be "boots on the ground" for understanding Beijing or Pyongyang. I lived in Seoul for a year and have a number of friends back there, and I do often lean on them for impressions of the government in Seoul or for events that happen in the ROK, but I don't believe this experience has given me any special insight into North Korea. And my apartment in Gangnam was a lot closer to North Korea than Hong Kong is.

The Cracker Emcee Refulgent said...

"That's an argument from incredulity."

Gosh, it's almost like we're sitting on some Wisconsin lady's blog, speculating about world affairs with no hard proof one way or another...

Given China's track record, it would be laughably disingenuous to pretend that they're not deeply in North Korea's shit.

tim in vermont said...

Sick burn Howard... LOL

J. Farmer said...

@The Cracker Emcee Refulgent:

Gosh, it's almost like we're sitting on some Wisconsin lady's blog, speculating about world affairs with no hard proof one way or another...

No hard proof...let's just pull it out of our asses! Actually, Queen Elizabeth's reptile people are controlling both China and North Korea for sex slaves. I don't have any hard proof, but why not!

Given China's track record, it would be laughably disingenuous to pretend that they're not deeply in North Korea's shit.

"Deeply in North Korea's shit" is a very amorphous claim.

J. Farmer said...

@The Cracker Emcee Refulgent:

p.s. I do actually take your point about the speculation. Sometimes I just like being a prick :P

Nichevo said...

J-Farm says...
Perhaps you can explain to us your sources of knowledge about the China-NoKo relationship and how it operates.

We know yours, right? You develop a preconception, and find a blue-chip journal article that takes your side. That's your Blue Steel. Am I wrong?

J. Farmer said...

@Nichevo:

We know yours, right? You develop a preconception, and find a blue-chip journal article that takes your side. That's your Blue Steel. Am I wrong?

Buwaya made a specific claim: "These things happen behind closed doors. They are not public, or rather what is public is meant to be public. China and NK are perfectly capable of pretending to anything, including Chinese "sanctions"."

Given that claim, it is not out of line for me to ask him what is his source for knowing this.

The Cracker Emcee Refulgent said...

"Sometimes I just like being a prick :P"

Persiflage without attitude is pointless.

Nichevo said...

Given that claim, it is not out of line for me to ask him what is his source for knowing this.

Source? It's the pattern for 5,000 years. What else would they be doing?

J. Farmer said...

@Nichevo:

Source? It's the pattern for 5,000 years. What else would they be doing?

Well, for starters, it's an unfalsifiable claim. When China and NoKo evidence good relations and cooperation, it proves buwaya's point. But when they evidence strained relations and tensions, he says it's all made up for show and still proves his point. His argument can't lose.

n.n said...

North Korea may one day transition to a democracy. Kim is training his rhetorical skill for that fateful state.

Nichevo said...

J. Farmer said...
@Nichevo:

Source? It's the pattern for 5,000 years. What else would they be doing?

Well, for starters, it's an unfalsifiable claim.


You mean like what you said on another thread, Russia is doing what all great powers do, trying to stay a great power?

J. Farmer said...

@Nichevo:

You mean like what you said on another thread, Russia is doing what all great powers do, trying to stay a great power?

No, that's easily falsifiable: identify a great power that voluntarily chose to relinquish its great power status.

Achilles said...

J. Farmer said...
@Achilles:

That is all this is.

And you know this how?

The same way you know what you know. I collect information, sort it out, measure it against observable patterns, and assimilate the information or adjust my paradigm.

China has been an imperialist force for 5000 years. It has been defeated by other imperialist forces, but it has never given up those pretensions. It is constantly trying to expand it's borders.

The ruler/ruled relationship between the people and the rulers has been remarkably consistent during that time no matter what they called the system.

I talk to a lot of people from China. In general they just do not get freedom on a natural level. They just don't get it. There is no other way to put it. Almost everyone in Asia is explicitly racist. We call them all Asians but boy do they hate each other.

China invaded Korea and set up a client state.

Almost everything consumed in the North Korean economy come from China.

North Korea does it's thing. It is and always has been a stalking horse for China. Xi could have Kim's knee caps any time he wants.

Everyone in China and Hong Kong knows this. It is just how things are done there.

J. Farmer said...

@Achilles:

The same way you know what you know. I collect information, sort it out, measure it against observable patterns, and assimilate the information or adjust my paradigm.

Fair enough.

China has been an imperialist force for 5000 years. It has been defeated by other imperialist forces, but it has never given up those pretensions. It is constantly trying to expand it's borders.

I am not sure exactly what it means to not give up pretensions, but I think saying it is "constantly trying to expand its borders" is a over-the-top. It is certainly a major power trying to expand its power and influence, unquestionably. But I am not sure where outside the islands issue China has any real opportunity to expand its borders.

The ruler/ruled relationship between the people and the rulers has been remarkably consistent during that time no matter what they called the system.

I'll accept that.

Almost everyone in Asia is explicitly racist. We call them all Asians but boy do they hate each other.

Completely agree.

China invaded Korea and set up a client state.

Almost everything consumed in the North Korean economy come from China.


I agree that North Korea is a client state. But it is the claim of on/off switch nature of that relationship that I take issue with. I think it is much more complicated than that. The Chinese could not prevent Kim's consolidations in the mid- to late-1950s, and the 1960s was a period of tension between the two countries. The power does not merely flow in one direction, and the relationship is a semi-interdependent one.

Xi could have Kim's knee caps any time he wants.

On a theoretical level, that is certainly true. China has the power to inflict tremendous damage on North Korea. But the fact that it has this capacity does not mean that it can exercise it any time it wishes. China's decision to make that move is constrained by a whole number of factors. And the North Koreans know this as well. And that is the dance they do.

The above is why I think it is simplistic to claim that China can turn off the Korean nuclear problem with a snap of its finger. It cannot.

Thanks, Achilles. Good exchange.

narciso said...

You look at a disparate comparison, kruschev put the missiles in cuba, but fidel wanted to actively fire them off.