November 2, 2019

By the clock, this morning's sunrise was the year's latest sunrise — 7:33.

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Tonight, we set our clocks back, so tomorrow's sunrise — though later to those of us who are living by the sun — comes with an earlier clock time: 6:35. The time of the sunrise will be later and later, by the clock, but it will never get as late 7:33 (not until we're back on Daylight Saving Time and November comes around again).

On the shortest day of the year, the first day of winter, the sun will rise at 7:25. You might think that, after that, the sunrise will come earlier and earlier, but that is not so! Even though the days will start getting longer, the sun will come up later and later, and it won't come up earlier until January 7th. But as late as those later and later sunrises get, they won't get as late — by the clock! — as it was today. The latest Central Standard Time sunrise is 7:29 — and that will be on January 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6.

The day-to-day changes in the sunrise time are much smaller on the shortest days of the year. So don't worry too much when the days get short. The darkness seems to come very fast in mid-fall, but then the rate of change slows immensely. The day length will very very gradually approach 9 hours and bottom out at 8 hours and 59 minutes then barely change. The rate of change will pick up again in mid-January, and we'll be back to 10 hours of sun by February 3rd and then 11 hours of sunlight by February 25th.

I haven't been going out in search of sunsets, but the earliest sunsets, in case you are wondering, come before the winter solstice. They will be at 4:22 (here in Madison) on December 10, 11, 12, 13, 14. That's how the sunrises can keep getting later, up into January, even as the days start getting longer after the solstice (which is on December 21st).

CORRECTION: I’d written “8 hours and 59 seconds” instead of “8 hours and 59 minutes.”

55 comments:

Michael K said...

Arizona does not do daylight savings time but I cannot convince Honda of that fact. Every time I drive to CA, my car clock changes. Now, until next spring, it will represent local time accurately but come next summer, it will click back an hour and require mental arithmetic. The Honda owners manual says it does it automatically for states that don't do DST but that is a fib. There is no way to do it manually,

Art in LA said...

You're like an ancient Greek astronomer observing the sky. I'm blown away that we can predict sunup and sundown times so accurately. The weather, on the other hand ...

mockturtle said...

We don't observe daylight savings time here in AZ and I predict that it will be eliminated nationwide before long.

TomHynes said...

The hours of daylight follows a sine curve, and the rate of change is the first derivative, or the cosine. You promised there wouldn't be any math on this test.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

You are making my head hurt.

I hate hate hate changing the clocks. It messes up my internal clock. Now that I am retired, I can just ignore the whole thing anyway.

Ignorance is Bliss said...

...though later to those of us who are living by the sun

If you are living by the sun, sunrise always comes at the same time

stevew said...

At a similar latitude, a bit south of you in Madison, our shortest day is 9 hours 3 minutes. The latest the sunrises, Jan 5, is 7:14am. Earliest sunset is 4:10pm on Dec 5.

Curious George said...

My head hurts.

Guildofcannonballs said...

http://americandigest.org/great-rebranding-not-republican-not-conservative-not-alt-right-none-american/#more-2397

I never respected nor admired Gordon Ghecko.

The Sheens are, well, the sheen (shit sheen).

I set again forward clocks having erroneously previously set a time not now un-forsaken.

Oh, and fucking whales come out from 1000's of ocean nautical miles to say "hey bro, keep broing okay bro" and abiding is opposite of boring.

Anonymous said...

Nice to see a fellow sunrise/sunset/length of day nerd.

Do you keep track of where on the horizon the sun rises and sets from particular vantage points in your house, too? (It's kinda cool the way the winter solstice sun rises just over the point where the neighbors' fences meet in our backyard, etc. Suburban stonehenge.)

Guildofcannonballs said...

In her own way, Althouse is the center that held.

Yancey Ward said...

The tilt of the Earth isn't symmetrical with respect to Sunrise and Sunset except on the solstice itself (and again at the equinoxes). It is difficult to explain this difference with words, but you can probably get it by watching an animation of the Earth's rotation and revolution with respect to the Sun- you should notice that Sunrise and Sunset have a different relationship to the actual axis of rotation right up until the solstice occurs, and the direction of this relationship changes as you pass the solstice, and becomes the near mirror image of what occurred prior to the solstice. I will try to find a good animation of this.

Roger Sweeny said...

I think you mean 8 hours and 59 minutes, not seconds. So going from about 15 hours of daylight in high summer to about 9 in low winter.

After my son moved to Florida, I discovered that they get LESS daylight time in the summer than we in Massachusetts get but they get more in the winter. In other words, there is less of a change in day length. I really should have known it. My wife is from Alaska and their summer days were ridiculously long and the winter days accordingly (and depressingly) short. At the North Pole, the sun never sets for 6 months and then never rises for the next 6. At the equator, it's always 12 hours or day and 12 hours of night.

Yancey Ward said...

"Do you keep track of where on the horizon the sun rises and sets from particular vantage points in your house, too? (It's kinda cool the way the winter solstice sun rises just over the point where the neighbors' fences meet in our backyard, etc. Suburban stonehenge.)"

When I was living in CT, my house had an unobtructed view of Sunset year round- I lived on the side of a hill that sloped away to the west. After the first year, I could tell you the date of the soltices and equinoxes by where the shadows cast by the window paning in my den- I actually marked them on the wall.

Ann Althouse said...

“ If you are living by the sun, sunrise always comes at the same time”

It’s later in time since it set. The time is natural, distances of day and night.

Anonymous said...

TomHynes: The hours of daylight follows a sine curve, and the rate of change is the first derivative, or the cosine. You promised there wouldn't be any math on this test.

This I did not know.

Cool facts, bro.

Ann Althouse said...

You could say I am living by the sunrise, and that point is fixed and the sunset is earlier or later. But I go to sleep at night thinking when do I need to get up to see the sunrise and the answer is later or earlier.

Ann Althouse said...

“ Do you keep track of where on the horizon the sun rises and sets from particular vantage points in your house, too?”

I need to leave the house to see the sunrise or the sunset. That’s because of the orientation of the windows and also the trees and hills.

Lewis Wetzel said...

"I'm blown away that we can predict sunup and sundown times so accurately."
We spend all of our lives in the earth's biosphere, a very dynamic place. Most of the universe is not like that, on the largest scale, or the smallest. The relative positions of the sun and the planets, and the rate of the earth's rotation, can be projected thousands or millions of years in the future or the past.
The carbon and water atoms that make up most of me have been unchanged for billions of years.

Original Mike said...

"There is no way to do it manually,"

I absolutely hate that. Engineering arrogance.

Lewis Wetzel said...

Here, down around the 20th parallel, on the shortest day of the year the sun rises about 5:30 AM and sets about 7:30 PM. On the longest night of the year, the sun rises about 7:30 AM and sets of 5:30 PM. We have no daylight savings time. Year round, it is always dark by 8 PM, and usually by 7 or 7:30.

Yancey Ward said...

When I was in the 7th grade, we studied the seasons, sunrise and sunset, and their cause by the Earth's axis of rotation and its relationship to the Sun. On the test my teacher gave, he had this question:

"If you add up the hours of daylight for every day of the year, what part of the Earth has most total hours of Sunlight for the entire year?"

Susan said...

I think this is my favorite post on any blog ever. I loooove this stuff.

Every single morning I check the sunrise, sunset times and length of day. Sometimes I even check the weather. :)

My daughter's college roommate from Tuscon visited us one summer. she was amazed by the long days. I felt very sad for here that she lived where they don't have much difference in day length.

It is important to a gardener like myself because, for instance, you need to know whether the onions you are planting are long day or short day varieties for best results.

mockturtle said...

Angle-Dyne asks:
Do you keep track of where on the horizon the sun rises and sets from particular vantage points in your house, too? (It's kinda cool the way the winter solstice sun rises just over the point where the neighbors' fences meet in our backyard, etc. Suburban stonehenge.)


I used to have a computer app for gardening where you can situate your house [according to scale] by your coordinates and it would show where the sun would shine/shade would occur on any month of the year, on any side of the house. This was useful for what to plant where. That and my Architecture Deluxe app were among the most useful programs I ever used. For our winter home extension/remodeling I used it to literally print out the blueprints which the builders followed exactly. Being able to see an actual picture of the house based on the blueprints, one could see what would and wouldn't work, i.e., a bathroom visible from an outside door. My father would have loved this!

Ignorance is Bliss said...

Lewis Wetzel said...

The carbon and water atoms that make up most of me have been unchanged for billions of years.

Two thoughts:
1) You're really old.
2) You're really wrong. Atoms include their electrons. And anytime a molecular bond forms and then is broken, it is chance as to whether the atoms depart with their original electrons, or if they've been swapped

Jim at said...

We don't observe daylight savings time here in AZ and I predict that it will be eliminated nationwide before long.

I'm not so sure. I suspect DST will be accepted nationwide. A few of the west coast states have passed legislation to keep DST permanently, and are simply waiting for the feds to give approval.

I hate darkness at 4 pm.

Narr said...

131PMCDTFAW. Last comment Susan@118PM.

When I worked, I had one of the greatest views on campus, across the city to spectacular sunsets, which I admired year after year tracking north and south. Some of them featured Venus, which I have come to love and look for in her season . . . she has led me to the other Wanderers. Jupiter and Saturn are out in the evenings; if the weather allows, go find them to the south of west.

Speaking of seasons, they vary in length and don't start/end the same day in the northern and southern hemispheres, but a non-liberrian should do the math.

Narr
So few things visible in the night sky above our cities, I like to know their names.

wholelottasplainin' said...

2) You're really wrong. Atoms include their electrons. And anytime a molecular bond forms and then is broken, it is chance as to whether the atoms depart with their original electrons, or if they've been swapped
*************

I change my underwear every day.

Does that make me a different person?

Narayanan said...

Blogger mockturtle said...
Angle-Dyne asks ... Etc.
______&&
I feel sure you will enjoy reading about Ekaterin in Lois McMasters Bujold novels.

You're welcome.

Can Of Cheese for Hunter said...

Lovely photo.

CO does time change everyone hates it. The argument is do we stay on Daylight SAvings or stay off it.
I no longer know which is which. I'd vote for fall back/& stay back. Keep that extra hour forever.

Changing time twice a year is a net negative for stress and sleep. Not only that - it's silly. the amount of daylight is the amount of daylight. Shifting the times doesn't change that.

Lewis Wetzel said...

Ignorance is bliss wrote:

"You're really wrong. Atoms include their electrons."
Not wanting to get too far into the weeds, here, but I think it is incorrect to refer to an electron as some part of an atom that retains its identity as having once been part of a certain atom after it has been removed from that atom.
If I take take two electrons, one removed from an atom a billion years ago, one removed from another atom five minutes ago, how can you differentiate between the two if that is all that you know about the pair of electrons?

mockturtle said...

Splitting hairs is obnoxious. Splitting atoms is ignoble.

mockturtle said...

Narayanana suggests: I feel sure you will enjoy reading about Ekaterin in Lois McMasters Bujold novels.

You're welcome.


I doubt it. I loathe science fiction. But thanks anyway.

Roger Sweeny said...

Lewis Wetzel, You could say the same thing for the protons and neutrons in the nucleus. They are totally indistinguishable from the gazillions of protons and neutrons in all the other atoms. They could be switched and no one would know.

wholelottasplainin', If I changed my underwear every day, I wouldn't be a different person. If I changed my balls, I would. Electrons are more like the latter.

tcrosse said...

When we lived in Minnesota, we could watch from our south-facing windows how low an arc the sun would describe across the sky. For a few months the sun would shine directly in, although not for too much of the day.

stevew said...

Boston is at the eastern end of the time zone. A Commission of some sort voted to recommend that the state drop DST and switch to the Atlantic zone.

I used to hate switching back and forth but don't really care any more. Not sure why.

Marcus Bressler said...

In Florida I believe we voted to say on DST all year. We are waiting for Congressional approval of some sort. I try to go to the beach and walk every evening right before twilight. It's fairly cool and it calms me.

THEOLDMAN

rcocean said...

One thing about getting old - for first time in my life I'm looking forward to falling back to new -earlier -sunrise. I've gradually shifted over the years to an early riser, and I'm getting tired of super-late sunrises. As a kid I loved those long summer days, playing outside at 730-800 as it got dark. Now, what I love about summer are the early sunrises.

rcocean said...

People used to get mixed up about DST. Do we fall back or push the clock forward? Or they'd miss the day, and forget to change their watch. Of course, in this electronic age that doesn't happen. My cell phone and all our electrical devices and the computer, automatically fall back one hour. Even our stove. Exception? Our microwave.

Rosalyn C. said...

As I've gotten older and experience time passing more quickly imo DST is a total waste of time (LOL), and idiotic. I don't see the value of "having an extra hour" of sunlight in the summer compared to the nuisance of changing the clocks. It's not like we're all farmers or the children are demanding more time to play outdoors in the summer. Are they?

Turns out the farmers were opposed to DST:

"The first implementation of daylight saving time occurred in Germany in 1916 as a way to conserve coal usage during World War I. The U.S. followed suit in 1918, and the implementation has come and gone over the years. It has been particularly popular as a means to conserve energy with the thinking being that if the summer sunlight lasts longer into the evening, it is one less hour of darkness that will need to be lit, cooled, or heated.

Daylight Saving Time and Farming

Many farmers and others in agriculture are still opposed to daylight saving time. What it actually does is disrupt a farmer’s carefully orchestrated schedule. For instance, if dairy cows are used to being milked at 5:00 a.m., moving the clock back an hour in the fall actually moves their milking time back an hour, and livestock cannot understand waiting another hour to be milked. Then, just as the cows get used to it, the milking schedule gets changed again in the spring. The milk truck is likely still coming at the same time per the clock, meaning dairy farmers can’t just change their milking times to keep it consistent for the animals." https://agamerica.com/myth-vs-fact-daylight-saving-time-farming/

wholelottasplainin' said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Narayanan said...

I doubt it. I loathe science fiction. But thanks anyway
'______&&

It is more sociology and culture analysis of a transplant of humans needs and coping on other planet system.

One settled by "Americans"

Another predominantly "Russian"

And one "Chinese- Japanese'

Jim at said...

the amount of daylight is the amount of daylight. Shifting the times doesn't change that.

Would you rather have that hour of daylight at 3 am or 9 pm in the summer time?

I choose the latter.

Narayanan said...

Was Aristoteles on to something when he thought up Essences and Accidents

Original Mike said...

"If I changed my underwear every day, I wouldn't be a different person. If I changed my balls, I would. Electrons are more like the latter."

I'm with wholelottasplainin' on this one. Your balls are like the two k-shell electrons, which may well have been with the same nucleus for a very long time. The outer shell electrons are like your underwear.

wholelottasplainin' said...

Roger Sweeny said...
Lewis Wetzel, You could say the same thing for the protons and neutrons in the nucleus. They are totally indistinguishable from the gazillions of protons and neutrons in all the other atoms. They could be switched and no one would know.

>>>>but the point is, nature doesn't "switch" or alter them, except for unstable isotopes.

wholelottasplainin', If I changed my underwear every day, I wouldn't be a different person. If I changed my balls, I would. Electrons are more like the latter.

>>>>my point was, it's the unchanging nucleus that defines the atom, not the outer electrons transferred during chemical reactions. You would have to perform surgery on your body to change your balls, but in a chemical reaction the nuclei remain unchanged.

>>>>In the case of metals, the electrons aren't really bound to any of the nuclei. Instead they flow among them, which explains their electrical and thermal conductivity.

>>>>As wikipedia puts it:

"The solid or liquid state of metals largely originates in the capacity of the metal atoms involved to readily lose their outer shell electrons. Broadly, the forces holding an individual atom's outer shell electrons in place are weaker than the attractive forces on the same electrons arising from interactions between the atoms in the solid or liquid metal. The electrons involved become delocalised and the atomic structure of a metal can effectively be visualised as a collection of atoms embedded in a cloud of relatively mobile electrons."

(I deleted because I thought I had mis-typed what I meant. But I didn't, so I've put it back up.)

madAsHell said...

Tonight, we set our clocks back, so tomorrow's sunrise — though later to those of us who are living by the sun — comes with an earlier clock time: 6:35.

In my best Seth Meyers & Amy Poehler voice..........Really!?!?!?

Lewis Wetzel said...

"If I changed my balls, I would. Electrons are more like the latter."
"More or less" covers a lot of ground. Electrons are a manifestation of the charge of the nucleus.
But more to the point, the atoms that make up my body were at one time parts of the forms of other things. The atoms are eternal (more or less). My body is not.

Guildofcannonballs said...

I'll say it now: You got a problem with Herman Mankowitz? You got a fuckin' problem with me then bitch.

Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...

today on the radio (NPR?)

24% increase in heart attacks clock moved up
21% decrease in heart attacks clock moved back

dont know their methodology for this determination. It was a spot re: sleep. Sleep cannot be 'banked', the body has no mechanism for that, unlike fat, which can be for lean times.

for you gun owners that may be hard of hearing, it's 'clocks' that get turned back, not 'Glocks'.

rcocean said...

Drop your cocks and grab your socks ladies. Sunrise and reveille is at zero six thirty-six tomorrow.

That is all.

Ken B said...

Curious about AA's response to “just a mess on a napkin”. Insty has the link.

FullMoon said...

Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said... [hush]​[hide comment]

today on the radio (NPR?)

24% increase in heart attacks clock moved up
21% decrease in heart attacks clock moved back


Then , five hours back and eliminate heart attacks.
Seems worth the inconvenience..

I think we Californicators are gonna star school later so the little darlings can sleep in. Hard to keep up with all the delightful new laws here. Experiance tells me kids will stay up later playing with their phones and still get same amount of sleep as before.

We do have an app that tells us if our address will be without electricity, on purpose.Due to, you know, global warming

Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...

per@DrREpstein

It seems impossible, but #Google is about to increase its obscene #surveillance program dramatically. It's buying #Fitbit to monitor our sleep, activity, exercise, heart rate & more. Fitbit doesn't use such info to manipulate us; Google will.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucelee/2019/11/02/google-to-buy-fitbit-for-21-billion-what-about-privacy-concerns/#4c9e79f81489

*******

U.S. opens national security investigation into TikTok - sources

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-tiktok-cfius-exclusive-idUSKBN1XB4IL

Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...

"Trump’s presidency has been defined by senior government officials who are open about their loyalty to the administrative state, including criminal acts and abuses of power, over the imperatives of a democratically elected president."

https://thefederalist.com/2019/11/01/donald-trump-versus-the-interagency-consensus/