October 30, 2019

"The idea that Vindman would have grown up with any sense of fealty to the Ukrainian volk is patently absurd, not only because he and his twin brother are clearly ardent American patriots..."

"... who have committed their lives to this country’s service but because I have yet to meet a single Jew who came to America from the Soviet Union who feels any kind of personal or historical tie beyond any relatives who might have been left behind."

From "Vindman is a Jew, Not a Ukrainian, Mr. Duffy/A loaded charge" by John Podhoretz (at Commentary).

I'm reading about attacks on Vindman, but let's look at why Vindman matters. I'll read "White House Ukraine Expert Sought to Correct Transcript of Trump Call/Lt. Col. Alexander S. Vindman, who heard President Trump’s July phone call with Ukraine’s president and was alarmed, testified that he tried and failed to add key details to the rough transcript" (NYT).

Excerpt:
The omissions, Colonel Vindman said, included Mr. Trump’s assertion that there were recordings of former Vice President Joseph R. Biden Jr. discussing Ukraine corruption, and an explicit mention by Ukraine’s president, Volodymyr Zelensky, of Burisma Holdings, the energy company whose board employed Mr. Biden’s son Hunter.

Colonel Vindman, who appeared on Capitol Hill wearing his dark blue Army dress uniform and military medals, told House impeachment investigators that he tried to change the reconstructed transcript made by the White House staff to reflect the omissions. But while some of his edits appeared to have been successful, he said, those two corrections were not made.

Colonel Vindman did not testify to a motive behind the White House editing process.
So there's the old question of whether the transcript is completely reliable and the new questions about the importance of these 2 things that were (allegedly) said but left out.
The phrases do not fundamentally change lawmakers’ understanding of the call...
Okay, then it's only about how complete and reliable the transcript is. It's reconstructed and not verbatim. But there's no new material from Vindman that matters. Vindman is only useful for the proposition that not everything is in the transcript, and then, I presume, the idea is to add in things that do matter from others who unlike Vindman, did not listen into the conversation but only heard about it second hand (or third or fourth hand). That feels quite tenuous.

If there was something important that was left out, why isn't Vindman the one to tell us about it? You have to say that he was troubled by what happened to trouble him and though that turns out not to be important, there were other things that were important but that just didn't happen to trouble Vindman, and here's a second/third/fourth-hand witnesses who can tell us about that.

I'm skeptical because I assume that things would tend to become more troubling as they are retold, remembered, and retold again.

164 comments:

tim maguire said...

It’s not at all surprising that a conversation reconstructed from many notes and memories will not conform perfectly to every person's notes and recollections. If someone remembers something but someone else does not, then what? If the discrepancies were pertinent, maybe note the conflict. Otherwise don’t worry too much about it and move on.

whitney said...

No one feels a kinship to the Ukraine it's an invented country a couple decades ago whose education system intentionally separated the people from their past and language so they have no allegiance to it or anything else in her completely culturally adrift. The reason is called THE Ukraine is because it means THE Borderlands. If it was an actual country named you wouldn't have the The there. The France, the Cambodia, nope

Ralph L said...

Was he trying to correct to what each prez said or to what went through the interpreters?

I imagine Trump-speak is challenging to translate verbatim.

stevew said...

Our memories are unreliable, and become less reliable as time passes.

Vindman shows up in full military dress. Nice optics. He's a patriot just trying to save the nation from that bastard Trump.

The truth is becoming more clear: on the call there was discussion of Ukrainian government corruption, there was discussion of interference in the 2016 election, the concerns about the Biden's (VP father and Burisma board member son) came up. No discussion of foreign aid being withheld. No demand to investigate the Biden's in exchange for releasing the held aid. No jeopardizing of US National Security. No quid pro quo.

Nothing to justify this impeachment inquiry. Polls yesterday indicate very low support for impeachment of Trump. Some doubt as to whether Pelosi's vote will be held tomorrow. I hope they do have it and that they take our host's advice from yesterday.

Darrell said...

So it's Vindman--with no proof whatsoever and no explanation or rationale to hear the call between Trump and the Ukrainian President--versus three operatives from separate intelligence agencies that are tasked to transcribe the phone call and hash out a single version for the government record. On that alone, I say fuck Vindman. Vindman's motive will become clear in the coming days, as it does for the rest of the Schiff clown posse. For example, Acting U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine Bill Taylor, who provided key testimony to the Democrats' controversial impeachment inquiry last week, led an election observation delegation in Ukraine earlier this year for a George Soros-funded organization that at the time boasted Hunter Biden on its small chairman’s council. Two months before he came out of retirement to serve as the highest ranking U.S. official in Ukraine, Taylor led an election observer delegation to Ukraine's April 21, 2019 second round presidential election for the National Democratic Institute (NDI) organization.

I'm Full of Soup said...

Vindman is Jewish so chances are he is a far left liberal Democrat. I expect every one of Schiff's witnesses will be a liberal Democrat.

Hagar said...

If Trump knew of criminal behavior by Biden and his son abroad, but did not bring it to "our" attention, would he not be aiding and abetting?
(The "recording" of Biden at the conference we have all seen surely is more than reasonable grounds for suspicion, and hearing of Biden Jr.'s taking down $53,000+ (or now $83,000+) per month from Burisma would clinch it in most people's mind?)

What would your position be if the President, or anyone else, heard about this, but with an American firm so that it would be an "internal affair" in Wash., D.C.?

Being a European born and raised, I cannot for the life of me, see what the difference is.

Laslo Spatula said...

A bureaucrat who doesn't agree with Trump is "alarmed".

Googling the relevant names, it is page after page of Left Talking Points flooding the zone.

All of which seem to be: you can't question his motives because Uniform.

When they are pushing this hard to stop all inquiry into motive it makes me believe there is something being hidden.

I could be wrong; maybe he is as nonpartisan and trustworthy as James Comey.

I am Laslo.

Hagar said...

My comment above on the hypothesis that if all the Democrats claim about Trump's call be true, it still boils down to Trump merely threatening to, but never carrying out, what Joe Biden has publicly bragged about having done, and with much larger stakes involved.

daskol said...

Vindman's statement about his fear that Trump's moves might threaten bipartisan support for the Ukraine belie not a fealty to Ukraine, but his hostility to Russia or at least his hawkishness on Russia. They also reveal someone who thinks it's not his job to implement the president's policy, but rather to assert his preferred policy regardless of what the president wants. Not a good look. I also read somewhere that NSC staffers don't wear their uniforms, and that his showing up in full uniform was a bit of theater. If so, not a good reflection on the military, either.

tomaig said...

Isn't this kind of the mirror image of the argument Elizabeth Warren partisans were making to defend her refuted-by-contemporaneous-documentation claim that she was fired from her teaching job because she was pregnant?
"It happened to my neighbor's cousin's friend in 1971, so it MUST be true!" vs. Podhoretz's "It never happened to any former-SSR Jews I ever knew, so this MUST be untrue!"

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

Trump seems to have been unaware about how many people listen to his phone calls with foreign officers. He is a public servant, not a king. He can and should be held accountable for what he says and does as a public servant. In this respect he is no different to members of the local school board.

etbass said...

“Liberal democrat” = redundancy
“Far left liberal democrat” = double redundancy

Laslo Spatula said...

"From "Vindman is a Jew, Not a Ukrainian, Mr. Duffy/A loaded charge" by John Podhoretz (at Commentary)."

So there is still a chance of him being an American can come in second?

Go USA!

I am Laslo.

Bill, Republic of Texas said...

Whitney has no idea what they are talking about.

Ukraine is the birthplace of the Slavic people. Look up Kievian Rus. Ukrainian people have their own language and culture.

All students in Soviet Ukraine were taught Ukrainian (Soviet version) history and language.

The United States of America
The Russian Federation
The Philippines.

PhilD said...

"THE Ukraine is because it means THE Borderlands. If it was an actual country named you wouldn't have the The there. The France, the Cambodia, nope"

That's a good one. Let's see, 'THE United States'. Yep, 'invented' country (/s).


Btw, about that title "From "Vindman is a Jew, Not a Ukrainian, ..." now that stinks to heaven . (think but of a paraphrase of it 'Vindman is a Jew, Not an American')

From the article itself "For another, Vindman was born a Jew, and to promote the idea that the land of the USSR ever constituted any kind of “homeland” for any Jewish person is an infamy."
If this would be true then anti-semites are right. And Jews cannot be compatriots.
If false then the idea expressed is of a nazi-like quality.

Perhaps Podhoretz didn't realize what he wrote but then he is a complete idiot.

MayBee said...

Vindman's concerns seem to be: Biden told the Ukrainians to fire a prosecutor, and any investigation of that or of Hunter Biden will result in the Democrats withholding military aid.
Tell me how that's not what he's saying.

iowan2 said...

How can I believe any of this reporting? I'm assuming this the information Schiff has fed us.

Schiff is a liar.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

It is clear that Trump's minders (the deeper state) knew that he had crossed a line and then tried to minimize the damage. This cover up is what triggered this investigation.

Ann Althouse said...

"Vindman is Jewish so..."

This is a line of argument that is unlikely to work out well.

daskol said...

Indeed, better to just call him a neocon and move on.

Bill, Republic of Texas said...



This is the basis for his "concern!?!"

Who the fuck voted for this asshole. Ukraine got in bed with Clinton and the DNC. They chose poorly and that created a problem for them.

You know what, that still didn't stop Trump from giving Ukraine lethal weapons and support Obama refused them.

Where was Vindman when Obama was letting Ukrainian soldiers and civilians die due to poor equipment and training? Did he "blow the whistle" on his "concerns?"

Fuck him.

JPS said...

If I assume for the moment that Vindman is nothing but an American patriot who acted in good faith, I’m left wanting to ask him, Who the hell do you think you are?

Not because I’m outraged on Trump’s behalf of defensive of him, but because I don’t believe a military officer has veto power over presidential policy. We have the right and the duty to refuse an illegal order. But I missed it if he’s alleging illegality. Everything I’ve read from his statement sounds like, “I disagree with you and am deeply concerned about the national security implications of what you’re doing.” Noted, colonel. That’s your commander in chief, whether or not you or I like him or his orders.

And any liberal cheering for him ought to think hard about where this leads.

I’m Full of Soup, 6:14: Jews who join the Army and serve long enough to make LTC are rather less likely to be liberal Democrats than the full sample. (I speak with some authority here.) My guess is he has a worldview set in the Cold War, influenced deeply by his family background, and sees any break from the conventional foreign policy wisdom on Russia and Ukraine as not just wrong but dangerous. (Ralph Peters isn’t Jewish or a liberal, just a retired LTC who’s convinced himself that Trump is the next thing to a traitor.)

exhelodrvr1 said...

So the transcript isn't reliable, but Vindman's memory is?

iowan2 said...

ARM, I agree. Now tell me what you want President Trump to be held accountable for. Be specific.
Of course by the time this "impeachment" might play out, he will be voted out of office. Right? Direct democracy in action. The people holding the President accountable.

wendybar said...

WHY wouldn't Shifty Schiff let any Republicans ask questions???? WHY?? What is he afraid of if this witness is so compelling???

tim in vermont said...

"He can and should be held accountable for...” not breaking the law, but for not going along with the rape of Ukrainian wealth that American policians considered their right.

His opponent in the 2016 election, and the Obama Administration, cannot and should not be held accountable for making up charges of collusion, for recording phone calls by his campaign and selectively leaking them to the press, for collection hundreds of millions in graft from the Russians among others, for destruction of evidence that was asked to be preserved by Congress, a lot of which had to do with meetings with people who paid that graft, etc, etc, etc.

tim in vermont said...

This cannot and should not be investigated:

Obama White House unexpectedly invited Ukraine’s top prosecutors to Washington to discuss fighting corruption in the country.

The meeting, promised as training, turned out to be more of a pretext for the Obama administration to pressure Ukraine’s prosecutors to drop an investigation into the Burisma Holdings gas company that employed Hunter Biden and to look for new evidence in a then-dormant criminal case against eventual Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort, a GOP lobbyist.
. - The Hill

Oh yeah, and look what turned up in the New York Times:

where [Ukrainian] government investigators examining secret records have found his name, as well as companies he sought business with, as they try to untangle a corrupt network they say was used to loot Ukrainian assets and influence elections during the administration of Mr. Manafort’s main client, former President Viktor F. Yanukovych. - New York Times

Only Democrats are allowed to loot Ukraine!

I am not defending Manafort, but it sure seems like a lot of people are defending Joe Biden’s bag man son Hoover.

tim in vermont said...

Obama Administration policy in Ukraine was to provide protection for favored politicians and oligarchs who had looted that country, for just a small cut.

Obviously it’s an outrageous abuse of presidential power to look into that graft.

tim in vermont said...

The President, who, so everyone agreed up to now, has sole right to make foreign policy, with the advice and consent of the Senate regarding treaties, viz the “Iran Deal” has no right to change Democrat policy in Ukraine, since it’s you know, how we have been doing it.

But the Speaker of the House? She can completely disregard all modern precedent in impeachment!

What’s it like to have to keep twisting yourselt in knots for that gig as a Party troll, ARM?

alanc709 said...

"whitney said...
No one feels a kinship to the Ukraine it's an invented country a couple decades ago whose education system intentionally separated the people from their past and language so they have no allegiance to it or anything else in her completely culturally adrift. The reason is called THE Ukraine is because it means THE Borderlands. If it was an actual country named you wouldn't have the The there. The France, the Cambodia, nope"

You mean, like the Netherlands?

tim in vermont said...

"Vindman's statement about his fear that Trump's moves might threaten bipartisan support for the Ukraine...”

The support depends on the graft! And Democrats are going to be really pissed if evidence comes to light, which it already has, BTW, that the Democrats were mucking around in those corrupt waters to generate election interference!

No wonder they were looking for dirt on Manafort in Ukraine. Democrats knew first hand how corrupt that country was.

Still there is nothing wrong with paying three million dollars+ to the son of a man who can get prosecutors looking into your business fired, even if he is a crack head known to have bought crack in a homeless camp and to have left a crack pipe in a rental car, and had just been booted from the Navy Reserve for failing a drug test.

After all, the foremost qualification for a member of a corporate board is sober judgement.

exhelodrvr1 said...

So people born in other countries never have fealty towards the country of their birth?

Freder Frederson said...

If Trump knew of criminal behavior by Biden and his son abroad.


So when it is hearsay from a government whistleblower, it can be dismissed immediately. When Trump repeats an allegation that has been fed to him by Rudy Giuliani, then it would be "aiding and abetting".

Hookay!

And it is so touching to see everyone so willing to throw a decorated Army Officer under the bus, besmirch his name, and question his loyalty.

Jersey Fled said...

More leaks.

exhelodrvr1 said...

So people born in other countries never have fealty towards the country of their birth?

Jersey Fled said...

Funny, when I was there about 20 years ago it was "Ukraine". Now I guess it's THE Ukraine.

The official language after the Soviets took over was Russian. Few younger people know the old language. As I understand it Zelinski is learning it now in order to connect with his heritage.

Hagar said...

Once an officer, always an officer, but I question Vindman showing up in uniform at a political hearing.
As for his Purple Heart, it says he was wounded in some fashion in a war zone. However, remember Bill Mauldin's cartoon about that as well as John Kerry collecting three of them in Viet Nam. This is stage prop stuff, not evidence of anything.

tim in vermont said...

Apparently we must never question either the CIA’s word, or the word of anybody in a uniform. In fact, wearing a uniform gives you powers once reserved for elected officials. Subpoena power, for example. “You can’t put that transcript on a secret server so I can’t leak it!” And the foreign policy powers we once thought were reserved to the president.

I learned that from Democrats this week.

Big Mike said...

I believe that the President of the United States has an obligation to direct the investigation of criminal wrongdoing by Americans abroad, and to involve the relevant foreign governments as necessary. Full stop. Even if the suspected wrongdoers are important Democrats named Clinton or Biden.

Big Mike said...

And Vindman needs to be busted down to private E-1.

tim maguire said...

whitney said...The reason is called THE Ukraine is because it means THE Borderlands. If it was an actual country named you wouldn't have the The there. The France, the Cambodia, nope

(psst! The "The" isn't part of the name. It is just "Ukraine.")

I'm Full of Soup said...

Well, then Althouse, maybe the media can dig into his past and enlighten me about his background. You know like they did with Joe The Plumber.

Lurker21 said...

Yeah, that Podhoretz article puzzled me too. Singling out Vindman as a Jew isn't a smart move, as it invites people against him to single him out as a Jew.

BTW, Today the Times is saying Vindman "fled" Ukraine with his family when he was 3.

Yes, the Soviet Union was not a happy place and yes, Ukraine couldn't have been the best place to be Jewish. Perhaps his family qualified as refugees, I don't know. But "fled" is a little too strong. If he left earlier, in the Thirties or Forties, it would be fully appropriate, but I would just have said the family "left" or "emigrated."

henry said...

What were Vink's prior activities in government? He did Ukraine related stuff for the Obama admin. Perhaps his real loyalty is to those bureaucrats (formerly elected and appointed) rather than to any country in particular.

tim maguire said...

LBeloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...Trump seems to have been unaware about how many people listen to his phone calls with foreign officers.

Evidence?

He is a public servant, not a king. He can and should be held accountable for what he says and does as a public servant.

He is. Every 4 years.

Lurker21 said...

Ukraine is complicated because Eastern Ukraine tends to speak Russian, Western Ukraine Ukrainian, and people in the middle speak both. The languages are closely related and I suppose everybody does understand Russian, but not everybody uses it at home. Russian and Belarusian are even more closely related and it appears that most people in Belarus actually do speak Russian at home. That at least is my understanding.

BleachBit-and-Hammers said...

We don't need the transcript. We have Adam Schitt's re-worked account.

Freder Frederson said...

Once an officer, always an officer, but I question Vindman showing up in uniform at a political hearing.

So active duty military should appear before the Congress in civilian clothes? That seems a bit odd.

BleachBit-and-Hammers said...

Big Mike 7:48 - me too

Americans have every right to know the genesis of the fake Collusion narrative and Biden family international money grift. you know- actual corruption by a government official.

The idea that Biden get automatic immunity because he's a candidate. Why?

whitney said...

Ann Althouse said...
"Vindman is Jewish so..."

This is a line of argument that is unlikely to work out well.

I think it's funny that no one has a problem with this but they really don't like me saying talking about the The and The Ukraine. But they're a whole bunch of articles and this decade about how it is incorrect to say the Ukraine so all of you people are in agreement the media. Good job.

BleachBit-and-Hammers said...

“I believe that the President of the United States has an obligation to direct the investigation of criminal wrongdoing by Americans abroad, and to involve the relevant foreign governments as necessary. Full stop. Even if the suspected wrongdoers are important Democrats named Clinton or Biden.”
-Big Mike

EXACTLY
bold+

Freder Frederson said...

And Vindman needs to be busted down to private E-1.

And the reason?

tim in vermont said...

It always sounded funny to me to call it anything but “the Ukraine” lke “The Netherlands" I guess on account of repetition until yesterday a Ukrainian guy delived some furniture and he called it Ukraine. So now it sounds fine to me.

Seeing Red said...

Colonel Vindman, who appeared on Capitol Hill wearing his dark blue Army dress uniform and military medals,

Which he doesn’t wear in his current job...


Meh. Everyone keys in on something different.

We are watching 2 movies.

Seeing Red said...

THE United Stares of America.

tim in vermont said...

When Trump repeats an allegation that has been fed to him by Rudy Giuliani, then it would be "aiding and abetting".

Freder, there have been multiple stories on this in the New York Times since the time Biden was a Senator. The Hill has been all over this too.

But why am I arguing with a guy who claims that dumps from intelligence files in Ukraine at the behest of the Obama Administration in their official capacity and appearing in the New York Times are not “foreign interference” in elections.

Maybe you will believe The Nation, rather than The Hill

Ukraine’s role in the 2016 race is undeniable: In the summer of 2016, Kiev’s release of the so-called “black ledger” resulted in Manafort’s ouster from the Trump campaign. The actions of foreign actors—however well-intentioned—directly impacted an American election.

One would imagine Washington media and lawmakers—who spent three years combing through every aspect of Moscow’s interference in our election—might direct similar attention to Kiev’s impact. Yet the Ukrainian angle barely made headlines.

If we want to get serious about safeguarding our electoral process from all foreign actors, not just Moscow-based ones, it’s time to examine Ukraine as well.


https://www.thenation.com/article/ukraine-elections-2016/

You might get a nice pop up for AOC or Bernie!

Oh I forget, the CIA assued Freder that this is all conspiracy theories so any evidence of it, no matter how irrefutable, should be ignored. “This is not the election interference you are lookign for..."

Seeing Red said...

THE United States of America.

Tommy Duncan said...

So this is the stuff of which impeachments are made? Pretty thin gruel.

Wince said...

Damning testimony, indeed. Here's what Vindman said, "the New York Times reported, citing a draft of his opening statement".

“I realized that if Ukraine pursued an investigation into the Bidens and Burisma it would likely be interpreted as a partisan play which would undoubtedly result in Ukraine losing the bipartisan support it has thus far maintained.”

In other words, Vindman "realized" Democrats might cut-off aid to Ukraine if the Bidens were investigated.

And that's Trump's fault?

I don't see any other way to read that.

https://nypost.com/2019/10/28/army-official-who-heard-trump-ukraine-call-twice-alerted-it-to-superiors-report/

tim in vermont said...

"nd the reason?”

Logan Act violation. Running a private foreign policy unauthorized by the President of the United States.

Hagar said...

Freder Frederson said...
"Once an officer, always an officer, but I question Vindman showing up in uniform at a political hearing."

So active duty military should appear before the Congress in civilian clothes? That seems a bit odd.


Did Vindman wear his uniform while serving on the White House staff?

PhilD said...

"You mean, like the Netherlands?"

Or Belgium (I'm Flemish). And yet for all its 'artificiality', and me being on the Flemish nationalistic side, we Flemish and Walloon (and Dutch for that matter) have a common history which put us apart from our neighbors.

I have no doubt it is the same for (most) of the Ukraine. After all, they were real enough to have millions murdered by the USSR.

narciso said...

we was lobbied by naftogaz, whose no 1 supplier is burisma, is punditry always this lazy, and yes colonel, where were you in 2014-2017, when Ukraine was receiving #hashtags and next no arms,

Freder Frederson said...

But "fled" is a little too strong. If he left earlier, in the Thirties or Forties, it would be fully appropriate, but I would just have said the family "left" or "emigrated."

Well, this is a new one, Trump has got you so twisted into knots of contradiction, you are now defending life in the Soviet Union in the late 1970's (I checked, Vinman was born in 1975, Brezhnev, the last true Soviet strongman, died in 1982-his old school successors didn't live long enough to consolidate power). They didn't "flee", they just emigrated or left. Being a Jew in the Soviet Union wasn't so bad, anyone could emigrate or leave any time they wanted.

You people are really getting desperate.

narciso said...

the rest of the colonel's statement, that an investigation would lose Ukraine's support among democrats, nevermind the 1-7 billion dollars in lost foreign aid,

narciso said...

now one of the leading factions in the post maidan period, was svoboda 'freedom' which does have an decidedly anti jewish cast, to it, but graham and McCain were fine with taking pictures with their leaders,

tim in vermont said...

The Democrats objections to the president making foreign policy all make sense if you accept the premise that he wasn’t legitimately elected.

Traditionally, when an officer of that rank cannot carry out in good conscience the orders of the commander in cheif, he publicly resigns, writes an op ed that would certainly have gotten published in the New York Times. He doesn’t skulk around looking for ways to make trouble and plot with a lying and underhanded scum like Schiff for political advantage That’s not patriotism, that’s something else, that[s putting political party over country.

chuck said...

Vindman isn't a good look for the Dems. What the hell is an Lt. Col. doing running to congress because he doesn't agree with how the CINC is doing things?

narciso said...

also another vindman relative, is deep in the securities business with Russia, as part of something called unicredit services

Char Char Binks said...

Ukrainian language does not even use article. There's no "the" there.

narciso said...

some details here:


https://twitter.com/almostjingo/status/1189460655184601088?s=17

tim in vermont said...

"Well, this is a new one, Trump has got you so twisted into knots of contradiction”

A. He’s wrong, “Fled” is the right term.
B. He speaks for himself.
C. You are the one tied in knots of contradiction

What did the. CIA tell you to believe today Freder?

tim in vermont said...

It’s funny that Biden bragged about firing the prosecutor “Son of a bitch, he was gone!”
It’a mattef of public record that Hoover Biden served on the board of a company the prosecutor was investigation.
Prosecutor claims that Hoover Biden the crack head was going to be questioned.
Any such questioning would have been a political problem for the Democrats

All of the above are true and have zero to do with Giuliani, but to connect the dots is wrong, unpatriotic

I wish Freder would answer one question, but he won’t. Why is it wrong for Trump’s attorney to look into election inteference in 2016 and Biden’s possible involvment, but it was O-OK for Hillary’s law firm to gather dirt on Trump from Russian spies during an election?

JPS said...

Freder Frederson, 7:29:

"And it is so touching to see everyone so willing to throw a decorated Army Officer under the bus, besmirch his name, and question his loyalty."

That makes me mad too. I don't question his loyalty, his service, or his integrity. I just think he is way the hell out of line, and has acted improperly here.

Now, I forget: Did you rise to the defense of Major Tulsi Gabbard when an influential politician said she's a Russian asset and not a few liberal journalists said, "Hey, that's not so ridiculous, it kind of makes sense"? Or is that completely different?

narciso said...

the Ukrainians were still mostly cutoff like the kurds, for much of the last half of the Obama administration, when igor girkin's 'little green men' were on the march, I was surprised putin couldn't make more headway in that period, maybe Chechnya taught him an important lesson,

tim in vermont said...

"Ukrainian language does not even use article. There's no "the" there.”

Is implied.

rcocean said...

Podhertz is a disgusting individual, and his point was absurd. "Don't criticize Vindeman - he's a Jew". Incredible.

The fact is, we don't know the Lt. colonel's motivations or his veracity. He obviously a never-trumper or a Democrat. He's tied in with George Soros and has connections to Hunter Biden. And he was in contact with Adam Schifftless in August. In any case, we HAVE THE TRANSCRIPT of the call. What does it matter that he was "upset" or "concerned"?

I hope this gets Trump to stop trusting people just because they are military. Just because someone is a "war Hero" or in "The Service" doesn't mean they are good people. Oswald was a ex-marine. Benedict Arnold was a "war Hero". John McCain - so I've heard - was a "war hero" and so was John Kerry. i wouldn't trust John Kerry to take my dog for a walk.

John henry said...

Vindman is a Jew, Not a Ukrainian, Mr. Duffy
A loaded charge.

October 29, 2019 by John Podhoretz

Laslo and Phil got in before me but this headline just screamed out at me. It is despicable on Podhoretz' part. How the Hell could he write something like that? How could any publication other than something like Stormfront print something like that?

It is what the Black Hundreds, the Cossacks and other said to justify their pogroms against Jews for a thousand years.

It is why Jews have been shunned for 2 thousand years. "They are Jews, not Spaniards, French, German, American, whatever."

Shame on Podhoretz.

John Henry

narciso said...

now why was this happening, because burisma was just one of the projects of privat bank, how controversial is that bank, a hearing in kyev, a week ago, prompted a bomb threat

John henry said...

Having said that above, I do think Vindman and his twin brother seem way too close to Ukraine. I wonder if there may be a security risk there?

Does he still have family back in Ukraine? Is he in contact with them? "Hey, Colonel, you know your uncle Vlad is up for promotion, don't you? Sure would be a shame if he didn't get it."

I worried a lot about Huma as a security risk for similar reasons too. In her case it was her mother living in SA and working for the Saudi government.

One of the things we have learned in the past 10 years or so is that security clearances and operational security don't seem to mean much.

Vindman DID, by his own testimony (under oath?) violate security protocols by sharing info with others. When Jordan tried to ask who he shared it with, Schiff cut him off.

Unlike civilians, Vindman is Army and the Army could (will it?) carry out an investigation and require him to say who he shared it with.

They should so so.

John Henry

Greg the class traitor said...

You've missed what appears to be Vindman's main claim:

Vindman was worried that if Trump got the Ukraine Gov't to help him investigate Democrat corruption, Democrats would stop supporting Ukraine, and thus Ukraine would no longer receive "bipartisan support"

Two interesting things come from this:
1: The Ukraine gov't clearly tried to help the Clinton campaign in 2016. But no one expects the Republicans to sabotage Ukraine support because of it

2: Apparently Vindman thinks that the Democrats are all corrupt America and Ukraine hating thugs, who can only be convinced to support the US and Ukraine (Ukraine is a valuable ally, yes?) if they are paid off

Please, tell me again, why is it that Trump is the "bad guy"?

John henry said...

Blogger PhilD said...

That's a good one. Let's see, 'THE United States'. Yep, 'invented' country (/s).

I would argue that it IS an invented "country". When the United States was formed, the word "state" was universally understood to be synonymous with "country". New York (and NJ, Virginia, Connecticut etc) were independent, sovereign, countries (states).

"The United States" was no more a country than the European Union is. It was a collection of countries and contemporary usage was "These United States"

The United States, as a single country is an invention that occurred after the War between the States.

We are the United States not the United provinces or some such.

Far too many people lose sight of this fact. Even people who should know better.

(Not pointing fingers at you in particular, Phil)

John Henry

John henry said...

Seeing Red,

It is not just that he doesn't wear the uniform in his present job, he is prohibited from wearing his uniform in his present job at NSC.

John Henry

narciso said...

quelle surprise,


https://www.amgreatness.com/2019/10/29/why-is-this-mueller-alumnus-in-change-of-the-justice-departments-fara-unit/

wholelottasplainin' said...

daskol said...
Vindman's statement about his fear that Trump's moves might threaten bipartisan support for the Ukraine belie not a fealty to Ukraine, but his hostility to Russia or at least his hawkishness on Russia. They also reveal someone who thinks it's not his job to implement the president's policy, but rather to assert his preferred policy regardless of what the president wants. Not a good look. I also read somewhere that NSC staffers don't wear their uniforms, and that his showing up in full uniform was a bit of theater. If so, not a good reflection on the military, either.
***********

Biden himself had a different view of the opinions of policy experts a while back:

http://accuracy.org/release/1784-biden-what-kind-of-foreign-policy-experience/



"On July 29, 2002, when Biden was about to chair hearings of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, the Institute for Public Accuracy quoted Scott Ritter, who had been a chief UN weapons inspector in Iraq, on a news release.."

After Ritter articulated concerns about the Clinton administration’s Iraq policies, Biden told Ritter it was “above your pay grade.”

***********
Trump should quote Biden's retort to Ritter, and taunt the Dems to "compare and contrast."

CWJ said...

"He can and should be held accountable for what he says and does as a public servant. In this respect he is no different to members of the local school board."

Historically or as a matter or course, how many people listen in on their phone calls? Or the mayor's, or the governor's, or an elected judge's, or Senator Warren's for that matter.

n.n said...

"They are Jews, not Spaniards, French, German, American, whatever."

The "Jewish-American", the "fetus, sometimes a baby", the "1/2" or less classification.

wholelottasplainin' said...

Freder Frederson, 7:29:

"And it is so touching to see everyone so willing to throw a decorated Army Officer under the bus, besmirch his name, and question his loyalty."
****************

Yeah, Freder: we all remember your solicitude over General Flynn's being thrown under bus by the corrupt FBI and DOJ.

Oh wait.....

John henry said...

Blogger narciso said...

some details here:


https://twitter.com/almostjingo/status/1189460655184601088?s=17


I think it is worth posting the text of that Tweet. Leonid is LtCol Vindman's older brother


Leonid Simon Vindman is the “Founder and Managing Partner, Tungsten Capital Advisors” and “has approximately thirty years of experience in the financial markets,” his company website states.

“During the past twenty five years, he has been focusing predominantly on Central Eastern Europe, Russia and Central Asia where he completed some of the biggest investment and advisory transactions in the region,” according to the website. “He also completed transactions in the Middle East, and traveled extensively in Asia and Africa.”

https://heavy.com/news/2019/10/alexander-vindman-family-wife-parents-brother/

John Henry

Freder Frederson said...

Did you rise to the defense of Major Tulsi Gabbard when an influential politician said she's a Russian asset.

Actually, I had nothing to say about that. I thought it was all too convoluted and twisted to make any sense of at all.

Freder Frederson said...

Did Vindman wear his uniform while serving on the White House staff?

I would think so.

roesch/voltaire said...

Obviously we should never trust what anyone says except Trump because he is well known for telling the truth.

Freder Frederson said...

Why is it wrong for Trump’s attorney to look into election inteference in 2016 and Biden’s possible involvment, but it was O-OK for Hillary’s law firm to gather dirt on Trump from Russian spies during an election?

If Guiliani was doing it as a private citizen, it would be highly unusual and perhaps unethical, but probably not illegal. But that is not what happened, he was dragging State Department officials and even the Secretary of Energy, into his little investigation.

Michael K said...

He can and should be held accountable for what he says and does as a public servant. In this respect he is no different to members of the local school board.

Does this also apply to Biden, ARM? You and Freder rush to defend the Cold War mentality that is driving many of these officers to resist Trump's efforts to get us out of endless wars. Their careers depend on stuff that matters only to them, anymore.

I do wonder if that colonel wears his uniform to work every day.

I also wonder if the NSA has a recording of that call, which may just surface.

doctrev said...

Podhoretz and Rothman are Exhibits A and B illustrating why Jewish predominance in elite culture is not obviously based on merit, with Ben Shapiro as C. But his article is incompetent even by the low standards of Commentary. How dare we question his obvious lack of fealty to Ukraine, just because he is alleged to be selling secrets to the Ukrainian government against the duly-elected President. How. Dare. We.

That Podhoretz defends such a person is completely unsurprising. It's -obviously- because their families are both descended from Ukrainian stock. Maybe Ukrainians shouldn't control so much of the national dialogue!

CWJ said...

The name of the country is Ukraine. That's it. Just Ukraine. The native people are Ukrainians who speak and write Ukrainian. I believe the "the" was an extranational addition.

tim in vermont said...

Quotes from New York Times:

The omissions, Colonel Vindman said, included Mr. Trump’s assertion that there were recordings of former Vice President Joseph R. Biden Jr. discussing Ukraine corruption

Yeah, we have all seen it on YouTube that Trump referenced in the call.

and an explicit mention by Ukraine’s president, Volodymyr Zelensky, of Burisma Holdings, the energy company whose board employed Mr. Biden’s son Hunter. That was in the transcript too.

This is all over a matter of emphasis?

This is all because Vindman has a problem with Trump’s foreign policy, I guess. Trump ran on draining the swamp. Somebody should tell Vindman that he won the election.

hombre said...

So Lt.Col. Vindman joins Democrats and their consorts in the media in the apparent belief that it is “not proper” for Trump to ask Zelensky to investigate corruption/graft involving the former Vice President of the USA. Yet, it was perfectly appropriate for that Vice President to extort the Ukrainian government into firing a prosecutor who may have been investigating that same graft by threatening to interfere with a $billion aid package - as he has admitted on videotape.

Apparently this makes sense in a world defined by Democrat immunity, Trump Derangement Syndrome and leftmedia Logic.

narciso said...

Ukraine has a centuries old fight with Russia, going back to the Hetman Cossacks in the East part, and it was an Ottoman satrap in the West, Odessa was a town called Gadibey, of course you add the Holomodor, and fratricidal back and force, btw the Russian Ambassador Kislyak, was actually Ukrainian,

narciso said...

No Rothman and the junior Pod, are uncommonly shallow, in most everything they write, it's a bug not a feature,

tim in vermont said...

But that is not what happened, he was dragging State Department officials and even the Secretary of Energy, into his little investigation.. - Freder

Really? You can’t possibly be twisting yourself into "knots of contradiction"?

Obama White House unexpectedly invited Ukraine’s top prosecutors to Washington to discuss fighting corruption in the country.

The meeting, promised as training, turned out to be more of a pretext for the Obama administration to pressure Ukraine’s prosecutors to drop an investigation into the Burisma Holdings gas company that employed Hunter Biden and to look for new evidence in a then-dormant criminal case against eventual Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort, a GOP lobbyist..
- - The Hill

Oh, and your Secretary of Energy smear is utterly baseless. Ukraine has a lot of energy resources, that’s where they got to cash to pay off Biden’s son. Just because there has been Democrat corruption in Ukraine doesn’t mean that Trump can’t call the new president there.

wholelottasplainin' said...

CWJ said...
The name of the country is Ukraine. That's it. Just Ukraine. The native people are Ukrainians who speak and write Ukrainian. I believe the "the" was an extranational addition.
***********

"Ukraine, sometimes called the Ukraine, is a country in Eastern Europe...." (wikipedia)

It's a British colonialist thing: I've heard many speak of "the Ukraine", "the Sudan", "the Yemen". "the Levant", "the Lebanon".....

There's this strange notion, prevalent among Americans, that country names can be pronounced in only one way. Never mind Italia, Deutschland, Eesti, Danmark, Ukrainia...

Or how about that nice old city on the Adriatic: Venezia, Venedig, Venice....depending upon the language you happen to speak.

Gunner said...

This whole "recreating the transcript" thing sounds really pointless. If there is no recording, no one who hates the speaker will believe it anyway.

hombre said...

So if Vindman is “a Jew, not a Ukrainian,” Mr. Podhoretz, does that mean he’s loyal to the Democrats, not the President? Odds do favor that, don’t they?

Because he is clearly not loyal to the President. How did the Democrats learn of these “omissions” if not from him? What materiality do the omissions have to the issue of “high crimes and misdemeanors?” Apparently none. This is just more Democrat shit-slinging looking for some to stick. Was there any cross-examination?

Full dress uniform? Seriously? A contrived accouterment to more shameless sedition!

PhilD said...

(Not pointing fingers at you in particular, Phil)

No worries. I was just being sarcastic in order to point to what was implied with 'If it [the Ukraine] was an actual country'.

As for the USA. Have you read the book 'Battle Cry of Freedom' by James McPherson? Wonderful book (I have a copy of it in french). In its conclusion he points out that before the war it was a Union, after the war it was a Nation. The example he gives is Lincoln mentioning the word 'Union' 20 times in his 1961 inauguration, the word 'nation' but once. In his Gettysburg address 5 times the word 'nation' and 'union' not once. And in his second inauguration that the South took up arms to dissolve the 'Union' while the North took up arms to preserve the 'Nation'.
I think the US is blessed with its federal organisation while being at the same time a nation, that is, one culture and one people (still? or yet? Depends how the the Left's project of the Balkanization of the US is going succeeding I suppose).

Yancey Ward said...

"Burisma" was probably dropped because it is a name from another language. Also, the notes on the US side are those of the person translating from Ukrainian.

As for the bit about the recording- this isn't a strange detail or a conspiracy theory of Trump's- if Trump mentioned it, he was almost certainly talking about Biden's bragging about getting Shokin fired on that well documented video.

I wrote this the other day- the various whistleblowers until Vindman are just repeating the hearsays of each other, which is in every single case just that person's opinion of what was in Trump's mind, and none of these people are mindreaders. Vindman, at least, is the first witness who is antagonistic to Trump who was actually listening to the call, but even his testimony isn't damaging- he also can offer no evidence of a stated quid pro quo, and the reason is pretty obvious- he would have had to lie to say that, and there are multiple witnesses who would contradict him, so he focused his testimony on the the minor stuff to build the narrative that the quid pro quo was somehow not included in the transcription, but he wasn't willing to say this himself apparently, which suggests he also didn't hear such a thing.

Jason said...

Fredo Frederson: "And it is so touching to see everyone so willing to throw a decorated Army Officer under the bus, besmirch his name, and question his loyalty."

Two weeks ago, the former Democrat nominee, a former Senator and cabinet officer told the country that MAJ Tulsi Gabbard, MP, HIARNG was a Russian asset. And libtards lapped it up.

I don't recall any of Hillary's people clutching their pearls and saying how outrageous it was to besmirch her name and question her loyalty.

Going back a little further, remember "General Betray-Us?" Remember when the senior Democrat leaders in the House were comparing our soldiers to Nazi stormtroopers and Khmer Rouge?

Sit the f**k down.

narciso said...

I don't fault him for pushing Ukrainian interests, we know how well the Budapest memorandum, worked out, but his focus seems to be rather narrow,

Yancey Ward said...

The problem for the Democrats here has always been the facts that we know about the Bidens' actions in Ukraine. In that phone call, Trump wasn't generically asking about dirt on Biden- he mentioned a very specific incident that has completely factual details that, on their face, outline bribery and influence peddling. The media have tried mighty hard to deny this, but it is hard to explain away Hunter Biden receiving such outlandish somes from countries that were dealing with his father as the American VP.

I wrote it before- everyone knows that Burisma (and the Chinese) were buying favor from Vice President Joe Biden, and directing the money through his son, and everyone knows that this is not only unethical, it is likely illegal. And I suspect most people know Joe Biden is lying about not knowing what his son was up to (Hunter has even indicated his father knew).

Francisco D said...

But that is not what happened, he was dragging State Department officials and even the Secretary of Energy, into his little investigation.

Isn't it obvious that the Media/Democrat complex depends on unthinking types like Freder to get away with their misinformation? All they have to do is make an assertion or allegation and it is taken as fact. I guess that is why some people found CBF credible.

We are entering a danger point where the Media Democrats are brazenly lying and making shit up to gain power. People like Freder may eventually figure it out, but not if they get the payoff they want. That is how the Communist Party worked in the USSR.

Yancey Ward said...

The Bidens would be on better ground if such payments had come from businesses and/or countries over which Joe Biden had no real pull during his years as a Senator or VP- but it is the specific incidents that are problematic- China and Ukraine where Biden was the US pointman for policy. If that had been the case, the payments would not look like, sound like, smell like, and taste like bribery

Jason said...

"Was there any cross-examination?"

Apparently Schiff directed the witness not to answer any questions from Republicans.

Anything that came up in cross would potentially undercut his messaging in his leaks.

Meanwhile, they're calling only favorable witnesses and publicly releasing their opening statements, when they're deciding which witnesses to call based on their opening statements (if a witness submitted an opening statement that didn't toe the Dem line, he's not going to be called. Until the GOP has subpoena power alongside the Democrats).

It's a self-licking goatscrew.

wholelottasplainin' said...

John henry said...

I would argue that it IS an invented "country". When the United States was formed, the word "state" was universally understood to be synonymous with "country". New York (and NJ, Virginia, Connecticut etc) were independent, sovereign, countries (states).

>>>>were "the Low Countries" states? I don't think so. At most they were principalities. So, no, state and country were not synonyms. Were the Trucial States on the Arabian Peninsula actual countries? Is Palestine a country? Nope. So, no, state and country are not synonyms. https://www.thoughtco.com/country-state-and-nation-1433559

>>>>When we issued the Declaration of Independence, the original colonies acted as sovereign entities, but only weakly so. They generally did not mint their own coins, for example, but instead used British, Spanish and Portuguese coins. In any case, the thirteen colonies were not "United States"

"The United States" was no more a country than the European Union is. It was a collection of countries and contemporary usage was "These United States"

>>>>the Preamble to the Constitution ....."ordain(s) and establish(es) this Constitution for "the United States of America".

>>>>When the original 13 colonies ratified that Constitution the idea of a single country became a legal fact. The colonies/states who ratified agreed to become part of one united country. What remained was to be recognized as such by other countries.

>>>>The 1783 Treaty of Paris resulted in the British crown recognizing the United States of America as a country, and established the boundary between the USA and the British colony of Canada. Other countries, such as France, also entered into treaties with the USA, including selling us their own American territories under the Louisiana purchase.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_treaties

The United States, as a single country is an invention that occurred after the War between the States.

>>>>Jeez, put down that bong!!! What the hell do you think the Monroe Doctrine asserts?
What the hell do you think "secession" means?

Sheesh



tim in vermont said...

Abraham Lincoln is America’s Shakespeare, in that he was the intellectual founder of our nation.

tim in vermont said...

I woke up thinking “they got him now” since it looks like he tampered with the trascript. I took a deep breath, went to the New York Times, and it’s another four card flush. Worthless hand. I think in strip poker a three card flush is worth something. But those are three card hands.

tim in vermont said...

"he Bidens would be on better ground if such payments had come from businesses and/or countries over which Joe Biden had no real pull during his years as a Senator or VP”

He should have recused himself rather than taking his bag man Hoover along with him on Air Force 2.

tim in vermont said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Michael K said...

I looked at that uniform the guy is wearing to the hearing. He was not wearing it when attending an official meeting in Ukraine. It is also reported that he does not wear it to daily work. Ollie North used his to wear to the Iran Contra hearing so this guy is only following a pattern but I do wonder where he got the CIB. I have read that Bradley made a bunch senior officers take them off if they had written the orders awarding them to themselves.

Bay Area Guy said...

Vindman is a stooge, and oughta be court-martialed.

If he were Navy, we would souce him in bilge water.

Hagar said...

If Vindman's testimony was "devastating," they would highlight the testimony.
When the testimony is lightly breezed by and the emphasis is all on the full dress uniform, and: Look! He's got a Purple Heart! How dare you question his patriotism? I smell B.S., especially since there was not anything in the testimony worth questioning. Still just no "there" there.

BleachBit-and-Hammers said...

without investigation - the pharisee media cleared Hoover Biden of any wrong-doing.

Ignore the Biden tape where he brags about quid pro quo.

Jason said...

I don't see a Bronze Star Medal among Vindman's decorations on his uniform.

An infantry officer with a CIB and no BSM is... interesting.

Stephen said...

It would be important if the transcript were systematically altered to reduce the Biden-Burisma content, particularly because the more Biden content there is in the call, particularly from Trump, it tends to show that the call wasn't really about the Barr investigation, but about Trump's own get-Biden project. In Trump's words it would make the call even less perfect. The Colonel's concerns are consistent with that. It would be interesting to know whether others felt that the Biden content was being softened. It would also be important if Eisenberg's motive was to hide the transcript rather than revise it further. So this stuff still has some juice.

What's ignored in your account is Vindman's confirmation of meetings that Bolton, Hill and Vindman broke up because they believed that Amb. Sondland's Trump backed requests for the investigation of Biden were illegal ("a drug deal") and contrary to American interests. and that they said so loudly at the time--weeks before the President's call..What do you think the investigation of Giuliani and his colleagues who were nabbed at the airport will add to this picture? Surely nothing pretty.

wholelottasplainin' said...

Skylark said...
Abraham Lincoln is America’s Shakespeare, in that he was the intellectual founder of our nation.
************
How could Lincoln be the intellectual Founder of our nation, when he was born in 1809, AFTER the nation was born, and didn't actively enter politics until the late 1840's?

What about John Locke, Burke, Washington, Hamilton, Jefferson, Madison, Jay, Adams...

Or how about these guys, who actually debated and drafted the provisions of the Constitution?

https://www.archives.gov/founding-docs/founding-fathers

BleachBit-and-Hammers said...

Trump tweet:

"Supposedly, according to the Corrupt Media, the Ukraine call “concerned” today’s Never Trumper witness. Was he on the same call that I was? Can’t be possible! Please ask him to read the Transcript of the call. Witch Hunt!"


I've been asking the same thing. Who is listening to Trump's calls?

Jim at said...

And it is so touching to see everyone so willing to throw a decorated Army Officer under the bus, besmirch his name, and question his loyalty. - FF

Afraid we're moving in on what's been traditionally your territory?

Rance Fasoldt said...

Kinda funny to put emphasis on THE Ukraine. There is no definite article in either Russian or Ukrainian. It's just Ukraine in those languages.

tim in vermont said...

"How could Lincoln be the intellectual Founder of our nation”

Yeah, that was clumsy, but “nation” doesn’t mean the same thing as country.

tim in vermont said...

"Sondland's Trump backed requests for the investigation of Biden were illegal ("a drug deal") and contrary to American interest”

POTUS defines the nation’s interests.

Just because somebody who has a lot at stake says something is illegal doesn’t make it so. Imagine Willie Sutton claiming that investigating bank robberies was illegal. We have a treaty with Ukraine to mutually investigate political corruption.

BleachBit-and-Hammers said...

why was this no-name bronze star supposed war hero listening in on Trump's calls?

Freder Frederson said...

Going back a little further, remember "General Betray-Us?

You do remember that Patraeus got caught leaking classified information to his mistress?

Lydia said...

A bit more from the Podhoretz piece:

Jews were subjected to unique persecution in the USSR both because of classic Marxist ideas about “the Jewish problem” and the historical anti-Semitism that was a lamentably common feature of life in Ukraine for centuries. The idea that Vindman would have grown up with any sense of fealty to the Ukrainian volk is patently absurd, not only because he and his twin brother are clearly ardent American patriots who have committed their lives to this country’s service but because I have yet to meet a single Jew who came to America from the Soviet Union who feels any kind of personal or historical tie beyond any relatives who might have been left behind.

Freder Frederson said...

Because he is clearly not loyal to the President.

You seem to think that Army officers are duty bound to be loyal to the President. Obviously, you do not understand our system of government or the oath military officers take.

Ralph L said...

How could Lincoln be the intellectual Founder of our nation,

It was a different country when he was through with it.

Nichevo said...

Freder Frederson said...
Once an officer, always an officer, but I question Vindman showing up in uniform at a political hearing.

So active duty military should appear before the Congress in civilian clothes? That seems a bit odd.

10/30/19, 8:11 AM


So an active duty military officer should do what the President wants. I'm sure that seems odd to you. I don't know the actual proper code for uniform, but he doesn't wear uniform on his day job, so maybe, maybe not. If he has the choice, he obviously seeks to wrap himself in the flag. Patriotism is the last refuge of a ...

Nichevo said...


Blogger Freder Frederson said...
Because he is clearly not loyal to the President.

You seem to think that Army officers are duty bound to be loyal to the President. Obviously, you do not understand our system of government or the oath military officers take.

10/30/19, 2:04 PM


Nobody here needs anything explained to them by you, Rotwang's buttboy.

tim in vermont said...

"You seem to think that Army officers are duty bound to be loyal to the President.”

He was duty bound to resign, and maybe write an op ed as to why. Not to grumble and resist and sabotage and seek advantage for his political party over country.

So, what do you think of the fact that the Obama Administration apparently pressured Ukraine both to lay off of Burisma, and to find dirt on Republicans, Freder?

tim in vermont said...

I remember watching those old war movies when I was a kid, and they would shoot down a Zero and it would whine and spin as it fell to it’s watery doom. That’s where this impeachment is now, it’s all over except the whining and the spinning.

Lydia said...

why was this no-name bronze star supposed war hero listening in on Trump's calls?

It's because he's the top Ukraine expert on the National Security Council in the White House.

Who listens in on a president's phone call?:

"Traditionally, officials from the US national security council (NSC) brief the president before a call with a foreign leader. Then the briefers sit in the Oval Office with the president while he speaks on the phone with the foreign leader. 'At least two members of the NSC are usually present,' according to USA Today."

narciso said...

of course, Schiff told vindman, not to respond to gop questions, so there was little actual followup was admitted, the meeting were weeks before the call, and Bolton not speaking out on his own, that's unheard of,

narciso said...

and therein lies the rub, he was lobbied by naftogaz, which relies on burisma for supply, that 's why forman and parnas deal was competition to them,

tim in vermont said...

"You seem to think that Army officers are duty bound to be loyal to the President.”

He has a duty to the Constitution, which defined the process which spit out the legitimate winner, Donald J Trump. It also defines the powers of that president. If he didn’t like his policies and couldn’t carry them out, it is not “patriotic” for him to then set about undermining the election, as I said, the honorable course was to resign.

Instead he sought partisan advantage. I am not sure where it says in the Constitution that people in spiffy uniforms set foreign policy.

BleachBit-and-Hammers said...

Why was this guy listening in on Trump's calls?

wholelottasplainin' said...

Freder Frederson said...
Because he is clearly not loyal to the President.

You seem to think that Army officers are duty bound to be loyal to the President. Obviously, you do not understand our system of government or the oath military officers take.
**************
Here's the oath:

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

Do you think jumping the chain of command is "according to regulations and the UCMJ? Do you really think the a mid-grade officer's objections to policies of his CINC are "according to regulations"?

So....show us why WE don't understand the oath...

wholelottasplainin' said...

Jason said...
I don't see a Bronze Star Medal among Vindman's decorations on his uniform.

An infantry officer with a CIB and no BSM is... interesting.
***********

The guy claims to have been wounded in Iraq.

Do you see a Purple Heart?

tim in vermont said...

"Schiff told vindman, not to respond to gop questions”

Right, and the plan is to codify these rules, disregarding all modern precedent, so that the Republicans are powerless still. If the Republicans want to call a witness, they will have to provide a detailed of the expected testimony and it’s relevance to Schiff, and only if Schiff approves and the majority Democrat panel votes to allow it, will that witness be called.

This is Soviet style shit, and I wouldn’t blame Trump for telling them to pound sand until they come up with a fair process.

Oh yeah, and they are mixing the oversight powers with impeachment powers, another no no.

Lydia said...

The guy claims to have been wounded in Iraq. Do you see a Purple Heart?

At Army Times:

"The Army officer testifying before House impeachment investigators on Tuesday was wounded in Iraq leading infantrymen in 2004 before becoming a foreign area officer specializing in Eurasia.

Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman earned the Purple Heart, a Ranger tab and the Combat Infantryman Badge, all before he served on the Joint Chiefs of Staff as a Russia expert when the Pentagon was writing its strategy to compete against near-peer adversaries.

In addition to the Purple Heart, Vindman’s awards include two Defense Meritorious Service Medals; four Army Commendation Medals; three Army Achievement Medals; four Overseas Service Ribbons; a Valorous Unit Award; the National Intelligence Meritorious Unit Citation, the Republic of Korea Presidential Unit Citation; the Presidential Service Badge; the Joint Chiefs of Staff identification Badge and a Navy Unit Commendation."

BleachBit-and-Hammers said...

Schitt spent 3 years on CNN and MSDNC telling lies about Russian collusion.
The man has zero credibility.

hombre said...

Interesting thing about NYT. Not only will it not publish facts contradicting the Dem/MSM narrative on the news or opinion sides, it won’t publish them in the comments either. I have not had comments rejected by the Time in the past, but they have rejected two in the last week or so where I had the temerity to mention the Biden-Ukraine extortion videotape posted by Trump.

As somebody somewhere said, I wouldn’t believe a baseball score reported in the NYT.

BleachBit-and-Hammers said...

Was Vindman in the room or on the other line listening in on the phone call?

Birkel said...

Benedict Arnold would like a word.

Rabel said...

"The guy claims to have been wounded in Iraq.
Do you see a Purple Heart?"

The purple ribbon on the left breast.

narciso said...

which is what judge rao, pointed out in her dissent, I'm not going to argue with which medal vindman may or may not possess, in the 20 some paragraphs in the times piece, they didn't mention, the Ukraine war between 2014-2017, the thick of the fighting, when practically no weapons were delivered,

hombre said...

Freder Frederson said...
“‘Because he is clearly not loyal to the President.’

You seem to think that Army officers are duty bound to be loyal to the President. Obviously, you do not understand our system of government or the oath military officers take.”

My reference is clearly to political loyalty. The omissions Vindman references add nothing to the “investigation.” His dress blues were a contrivance to enhance his inconsequential testimony. He does not wear a uniform on the job. Purple Heart or no, he is just another Democrat shill.

National security was jeopardized by the phone call? Seriously? What bullshit! Trump is surrounded by seditious snakes, some of whom own uniforms.

minnesota farm guy said...

CTH has a picture of Vindman in his usual civvie attire at the Zelensky Inauguration Scroll down to the second photo.
If ever there was a time to wear dress blues it would be at an inauguration. Vindman did not. Yesterday was theater - and political theater at that. It was inappropriate - and I'll bet against Army regs to wear the uniform to that hearing.

All that aside. We once again have someone testifying who has his own Ukraine axe to grind and thinks the president is not paying enough attention to him. As far as getting changes made in the transcript: can you imagine the chaos if everyone who thought they heard something different ( or just wanted to insert something in the record)could lobby the assigned record keepers?

Eyewitnesses and, I am sure, ear witnesses are notoriously inaccurate. Always remember the game of "telephone" when it comes to what someone "heard".

tim in vermont said...

It’s ridiculous to question his medals. It’s also ridiculous to think that his medals mean that his actual testimony adds anything to what was already long known. Is his upset that Hilary is not POTUS accorded extra weight? No.

It was incumbent on him to resign, not to take up the cudgels for the Democrats to try to get POTUS removed over matters of opinion on matters which the Constitution which he is sworn to uphold grant sway to the President.

As Biden said in a similar situation when the shoe was on the other foot: “That issue is above your pay grade.”

Yancey Ward said...

I wonder if there is a record of Vindman's attempts at "fixing" the transcript. I ask this because it is incredibly odd to me that someone would try to do such a thing, especially given that the things he tried to fix are trivialities.

In other words, I think there is a lot more to this story that Vindman is letting on in that statement. I think his attempted "fixes" were far more extensive, and got rebuffed when someone figured out what he was trying to do with the official record of the call. When I read the bits about the attempted "fixes", they read like someone who is trying to explain away something that they got caught doing- that is why he focused on trivialities in his testimony, to make it all look innocent.

Do you want to take a bet that Vindman wasn't attempting to make official transcript fit the whistleblower narrative, but failed?

Jason said...

Exactly. Infantry officer. CIB. But no BSM.

Them that knows, knows.

Jason said...

Looks like it's time for DC-area commanders to initiate an IG audit of all the WCP records in the city.

Jason said...

No, it's not against regs for Vindman to wear his uniform. That's a non-issue.

Jason said...

Fredo Frederson: You do remember that Patraeus got caught leaking classified information to his mistress?

Yes, yes. Refresh our memory, Fredo. Was the "General Betray-Us" slam before or after it became public knowledge that he was leaking to his mistress, and by how many years? And what does that say about what libtards knew at the time?

narciso said...

I wanted to know how much vindman pushed for weapons to be delivered to the Ukraine, he replaced ciamarella in 2018, just as cohen ratnick was replaced when McMaster came in,

Kirk Parker said...

"It's because he's the top Ukraine expert on the National Security Council in the White House."

G*d help us.