Jennifer Rubin argues in the Washington Post that Biden’s opponents shouldn’t expect to take the lead by beating him in the primary debates. She gives historical examples, but see if you can find a flaw in her argument about the 2000 election:
"There are precious few instances in which a candidate’s debate performance destroyed his chances. President Gerald Ford’s infamous remark “There is no Soviet domination of Eastern Europe . . . I don’t believe the Poles consider themselves dominated by the Soviet Union" was the rare exception to the rule that a single answer can doom a candidates. Then-Vice President Al Gore’s sighing, eye-rolling and obvious disdain for then-Texas Gov. George W. Bush in the 2000 general-election debates did him no favors, but it’s hard to conclude those debates were decisive in an election that was essentially a tie."
Here's how I responded to John over at Facebook:
It's maddening to hear that "it’s hard to conclude those debates were decisive in an election that was essentially a tie." If it is the case — and I think it is — that Gore ought to have won easily, then falling back to the tie position is a big difference. It's EASY to conclude the debates were decisive... or as we like to say around the house as shorthand for losing a debate "What about the Dingell Norwood bill?"
Most people don't go to rallies or even hear speeches. The debates are where they're confronted with the question, "can I stand to listen to this person for four years?"
Jennifer Rubin recently said that the Republican party and the GOP needed to be burned to the ground and everyone destroyed because of white supremacy. She's promoting a holocaust based on race.
Most people don't go to rallies or even hear speeches. The debates are where they're confronted with the question, "can I stand to listen to this person for four years?"
LOL, a lot of truth to this. When I thought Hillary! was going to be President (which I thought until I woke up the day after election day to find that a miracle had occurred) I intended to basically disassociate myself from Politics because I couldn't imagine listening to her for four years.
Other people I can't imagine listening to: Warren, Sanders and Harris. Biden does not fall into that category, but, as Scott Adams says, he's incompetent now (also would be a terrible, creepy president). Who would enjoy Warren kvetching at them, or Sanders yelling at them, or Harris scolding them and calling them racists for four years?
Looking back, Gore was an automaton with poor social graces, and Bush was hanging on to remember his lines. It wasn't a huge mess for either side, so I can understand it being a draw.
Trump/ Hillary is best illustrated by the gender swap debate, in which m!Hillary is obviously a greasy, smug incompetent and f!Trump is a perky, aggressive go-getter. I have long thought that if Hitler was a woman, the Holocaust would have "succeeded" in its awful goals. Anyways. Hillary stans assured us that she left Trump a quivering mess, but as we see by the presence of "nasty woman" in mass media even two years later, Trump made a much stronger impression overall. Simply put, he showed Americans the mess of seething, unlovable neuroses that comprise the modern American feminist. Which is one reason they started donning their pussy hats. The advantage is clearly Trump's, but not quite as dominating as he could have been. He was an unknown factor, so a debate wasn't going to be quite as reassuring to LIVs as all the sober Republican adults promising to restore order.
Trump 2020 is when debates are really going to shine. The Democrat sacrifice will be screaming about concentration camps and nuclear war, whatever, while Trump can easily rejoin with "WTF are you talking about?" This time around, the debate will be the ultimate venue for Donald Trump to justify the various successes of his administration, and point out that the Democrat doom-mongering has been completely discredited. Biden doesn't know where he is right now, while Elizabeth Warren has even less gravitas and "accomplishment" than Hillary. The other dwarves are even less noteworthy than Warren. What it will take is a major Hollywood celebrity, but professional wrestlers are out thanks to Trump's friendship with the McMahons and most of Hollywood is in some way compromised by the Weinstein scandal.
I don't actually think there are going to be debates. This time around, PRESIDENT Trump can get a debate hosted by OANN or RSBN if he wants to badly enough. And he can definitely show Bret Baier and Neil Cavuto what he showed Megyn Kelly: that yes, he DOES own Fox News and the network will lose all relevancy without President Trump's backing.
Left Bank of the Charles said... Why should Gore have easily won?
Because he was the vice-president of a recently very popular president and widely respected as a serious policy wonk (whether deserved or not, I offer no opinion here).
It's maddening to hear that "it’s hard to conclude those debates were decisive in an election that was essentially a tie." If it is the case — and I think it is — that Gore ought to have won easily
Meh. Your schtick is no better/worse than her schtick. Too many variables that determine an election outcome. Sure there may be some polling that can imply there was an effect of a debate, but to conclude it was the determining factor is A) unknowable and B) unfair to every other variable.
It was like the headline yesterday- Just four states are likely to determine the outcome in 2020. Factually incorrect. All the voters in all the states determine the outcome. Knowing with a (very) high degree of certainty doesn't change their importance.
Stylistically, Gore's convention speech appealed to me more than any others I've seen, thanks largely to the lack of interruptions. It's odd that his style(s) backfired in the debates. Which was the real Gore?
I would say Mitt wilting in the face of Candy Crowley and Barack ganging up on him was at least pivotal, if not decisive. He ceded the high ground and correct position because #FakeNews was on Obama’s side.
"TV debates are where women decide which candidate means well. That's who they vote for."
Or at any rate, which candidate they can most satisfactorily rationalize voting for.
Means well = serious, competent, ethical, expresses American values. As Althouse told us.
That's how we got "pragmatic" Barry.
But of course, well is malleable: Mitt meant better than O, but got no credit. Make of well what you will, as Wittgenstein or Derrida, I forget which, said somewhere.
And second of course, following the Althouse theorem that no one believes what they profess to believe, Althouse and her sisters don't actually believe their rationalizations: when did O ever express an American value?
"One wonders if it would still have hurt him without the silly-sounding Dingell.
"I think it was the sighing that made him seem too obnoxious."
I think Hagar at 7:30 nails it. The problem wasn't that the name Dingell brings out my inner Beavis (it does). The problem wasn't that Gore was so condescending and off-putting (he was).
To me that moment was so bad for Gore because this move didn't come off as natural at all. It looked like he was listening to one of his advisors telling him to establish dominance through body language, and it was so genuine that it was punctured instantly with an arch look.
Gore was the kind of candidate whose every utterance and every physical move seemed calculated to get back to the script that had been written for him. The spontaneity of Bush's response - that wry but not angry look of WTF, the cordial yet dismissive nod - would have been absolutely beyond him, had the occasion arisen.
Indeed browndog, although to me fey seened like ahe was playing her greek aunt, the huntress is much more dynamic aame for juliannes bender as i called it.
It's maddening to hear that "it’s hard to conclude those debates were decisive in an election that was essentially a tie."
Biden's corruption issue is likely a tie-breaker. The question is whether and when it will be used.
Biden's Democratic primary opponents so far have steered clear, most likely because it's viewed as a doomsday weapon with party-wide ramifications even if Biden is pushed aside.
Hence, they have stuck to arguing Biden is old and out-of-touch with today's issues and electorate.
Trump also has an incentive to keep the corruption line of attack pretty much under wraps until Biden clinches the nomination.
Despite that vulnerability, a Democrat is unlikely to raise Biden's corruption problem unless it is needed to put the primary opponent over the top, pretty much only in the case of a tie (not a runaway on either side).
Jennifer Rubin recently said that the Republican party and the GOP needed to be burned to the ground and everyone destroyed because of white supremacy. She's promoting a holocaust based on race.
Not exactly, she's one of Chuck's People. She wants the GOP to teach the Deplorables a lesson about electing Donald Trump.
Chuck? You going to defend your fellow "Life Long Republican"? Or just simper away again?
To me that moment was so bad for Gore because this move didn't come off as natural at all. It looked like he was listening to one of his advisors telling him to establish dominance through body language, and it was so genuine that it was punctured instantly with an arch look.
Exactly. That moment caused millions of voters to
1) recognize that Gore was being phony (like Chuck), and
2) conclude the everything else about Gore was phony (also like Chuck)
Excellent point on Gore - he killed his image and position in the election with that performance. I've long said that if Al had run as the guy he was during his concession speech after the recount was ended he would have won in a landslide.
There's no doubt in my mind that Gore's attempt to physically intimidate Bush was pre-planned and utterly doomed to failure. A complete misread of Bush's strengths and how Gore would appear.
And you know that in some pre-debate session, Gore seized upon some adviser's suggestion that, of course, that's it, we can trap him and hang him up on the Dingell-Norwood bill; unaware, of course, that less than a thousand people outside of DC could identify the bill.
The fellow Never Trumper hysterics. Rubin is almost a parody of them. She attacks Trump for doing things she herself has supported.
I can understand why George Will is a Never Trumper. He only supported Reagan after the tax cuts showed Will to be a pretentious fool. I don't understand Rubin, Kristol, Goldberg and others who are putative (Neo) conservatives. What actions do they expect from Trump that will make them happy? Are they that superficial that Trump's personality is what really offends them?
I would say Mitt wilting in the face of Candy Crowley and Barack ganging up on him was at least pivotal, if not decisive.
I agree. In 2000, I was pretty neutral as I thought Bush was a lightweight. Gore's carrying on was part of the effect but also there was a moment when Bush winked at someone below the stage, as if he did not have a care in the world as this buffoon was droning on. I thought that was a moment as significant.
Nixon's lack of TV makeup was a huge error. Ford's flub. Reagan's joke about his young and inexperienced opponent, that even Mondale laughed at, were others.
that less than a thousand people outside of DC could identify the bill. Few knew who the leader of Pockistan was either. Because Repubs are ignorant and stupid, that was so big for Dem elites that they thought it would work again.
"I would say Mitt wilting in the face of Candy Crowley and Barack ganging up on him was at least pivotal, if not decisive."
At that point, he should've walked out on them. Sure, the media would spin it as "quitter" but he needed something dramatic to show people he wasn't as milquetoast as thought. But of course, Mitt was a milquetoast loser.
Maybe not conclusive, but speaking like a human rather than a bureaucratic automaton makes much difference. E.g., Al Gore vs. Bush, Gov. Jesse Ventura vs. whomever, Trump v. Clinton.
I don't think Joe Biden has ever been able to distinguish between reality and fiction. Obama may perhaps been genuinely concerned for him personally when he tried to tell him not to run. As a candidate for the top job, the media mob will crush his cocoon so thoroughly that even Joe Biden will have to face reality and it will break him.
LIV? OANN? RSBN? A little courtesy would be appreciated.
LIV = Low Information Voter.
No idea on the other two
OANN: One America News Network
Upstart cable news network that covers actual news, targeting disenfranchised Fox News news viewers.
RSBN: Right Side Broadcasting Network
Upstart internet (Youtube) broadcast created solely to broadcast 2016 Trump rallies wall-to-wall. It is doing quite well even with Youtube trying to make them disappear.
Blogger GingerBeer said... If W had only said to Gore "The Men's Room is that way," the election wouldn't have been a "tie."?
I think the tie was due to Karl Rove's advice to conceal the drunk driving incident. It probably dropped Bush's Evangelical vote significantly. It made a setup that Democrat lawyer in Maine could pull off a month before the election. Terrible decision. I have always assumed Rove knew about it and blundered.
"I think the tie was due to Karl Rove's advice to conceal the drunk driving incident. It probably dropped Bush's Evangelical vote significantly. It made a setup that Democrat lawyer in Maine could pull off a month before the election. Terrible decision. I have always assumed Rove knew about it and blundered"
Yeah, that is something you get out of the news cycle early.
Mitt meant better than O, but got no credit. Make of well what you will,
When Mitt lost the debate to Candy Crowley , people quit taking him seriously as a candidate From that point on, the only supporters he had left were Life Long Liberals, who saw a good loser
I thought everyone just skipped over Jennifer Rubin. She's a Fake-Con. Debates will be important if the D's nominate Warren or Bernie. The MSM will downplay their crazy Lefty policies and try to make them out to be "moderates" - Debates will give Trump a chance to smoke them out.
The same is true of Biden. Once Biden is nominated, he will go into "Hillary mode" making few speeches and taking only softball questions. The debates will give Trump the chance to remind everyone what a doddering old fool he is, and that his "Moderate" pose is FAKE. Get him talking about how he will pay for medicare for all, or free college, or $400 Billion for climate change, or "Open borders".
Ford LOST the election not only due to his stupid comment over Poland and Eastern Europe but his REFUSAL to explain/apologize for it. People forget it took Ford almost a week to "clarify". Incredibly, he told his advisers that if people misunderstood his remarks about Poland "that was their problem". Jerry Ford - dumbass.
Remember McCain's great performance against Obama? Yeah, me neither. He just tottered around the stage yelping about "earmarks" and "I looked in Putin's eyes and saw KGB". I tried to watch the Romney/Obama debates, but after Mitten's performance in the 2nd one, I gave up. A loser is always a loser.
but his REFUSAL to explain/apologize for it. People forget it took Ford almost a week to "clarify".
Yes and they were Cheney and Rumsfeld. They could not get him to see his mistake. After the election, Cheney knew his DC career was over, so he packed up his car and went back to Wyoming. He got elected to the House and planned to stay there. He had no interest in VP in 2000. It cost him $5 million to go with Bush.
Gore lost that debate because it revealed his complete inauthenticity. He went from a supposedly smart (he of the flunking our of divinity school), if beta, policy wonk to a poorly mannered fake alpha. Bush won by being more himself.
"Governor, if Kitty Dukakis were raped and murdered, would you favor an irrevocable death penalty for the killer?"
"No, I don't, Bernard, and I think you know that I've opposed the death penalty during all of my life. I don't see any evidence that it's a deterrent and I think there are better and more effective ways to deal with violent crime."
Mondale was 15 points behind before the debates. He lost by 18, and only won Minnesota.
Picking a woman VP and talking about "raising taxes" were "hail Mary's" - were gambles that lost. Mondale's only real hope was for Reagan to appear senile at the debates, but Reagan destroyed that with his "I will not take advantage of my opponent's youth and inexperience" joke.
In memory of Al Gore (go for cremation, you will never rest in peace on American soil):
"In the most shameful and painful act of the hand counts, the Democrats on the ground, and their operators from the Democratic National Committee and the state organization and the Gore campaign, deliberately and systematically scrutinized for challenge every military absentee ballot, and knocked out as many as they could on whatever technicality they could find or even invent.
Reports begin to filter out. The Democratic army of lawyers and operatives marches into the counting room armed with a five-page memo from a Democratic lawyer, instructing them on how to disfranchise military voters. The lawyers and operatives unspool reams of computer printouts bearing the names and party affiliation of military voters. Those who are Republicans are subject to particular and seemingly relentless scrutiny. Right down to signatures on ballots being compared with signatures on registration cards. A ballot bearing a domestic postmark because a soldier had voted, sent his ballot home to his parents and asked them to mail it in on time, is thrown out. A ballot that comes with a note from an officer explaining his ship was not able to postmark his ballot, but that he had voted on time—and indeed it had arrived in time—is thrown out, because it has no postmark.
The Democratic operatives are ruthless, focused. As one witness says, “They had a clear agenda.”
Received late Wednesday, an e-mail forwarded from a Republican who witnessed the counting of the Brevard County overseas absentee ballots.
It is 11:30 PM (Tuesday) and I have just returned from the count of absentee ballots, that started at 4PM. Gore had five attorneys there, the sole objective was to disenfranchise the military absentee voter. . . . They challenged each and every vote. Their sole intent was to disqualify each and every absentee voter. They constantly challenged military votes that were clearly legitimate, but they were able to disqualify them on a technicality. I have never been so frustrated in all my life as I was to see these people fight to prevent our active duty Military from voting. They succeeded in a number of cases denying the vote to these fine Men and Women.
This was a deliberate all out assault on the Armed Forces solely to sustain the Draft Dodger and his flunky. These people must have a hard time looking at themselves in a mirror. . . . They denied a number of votes postmarked Queens NY, ballots that were clearly ordered from overseas, clearly returned from overseas, and verified by the Post Office that DOD uses the Queens post office to handle overseas mail, were denied because it didn’t say APO, They denied military votes postmarked out of Jacksonville, Knowing full well it came from ships at sea and was flown into Jacksonville . . . .
This is what you can expect from a Gore administration a further trampling on the Military and more trampling on your rights. . . .
The attorneys there treated it all as a joke, and when my wife protested their actions she was told she didn’t understand."
Nobody elected Jennifer Rubin to be "Conservative Pundit". The liberal Wapo hired her, and she called herself that. Or rather she called herself a Neo-con. Like Max Boot, she dropped the mask over Trump. Now, she's just another Trump hating liberal.
I hadn't thought about the 2000 election in a while -- talk about dodging a bullet! The GOP fought back in Florida to resist the efforts of the Dems to steal the election, and amazingly the GOP won.
However, Florida, at the time, had a GOP Governor and Secretary of State, so they had some political clout to resist. I'm not sure that would work today in certain swing states.
I am so glad that Al Gore and Hillary Clinton have never been President of this great country. However, Trump faces a more sinister animal, and he's gonna need some allies.
So we don't have to pay any attention to the next 12 months of governing and campaigning and can just tune in to the fall 2020 debates to find out if Trump will be re-elected?
Importantly, Repubs held the FL legislature, which would have had the last word and should have had its rules obeyed. It was just the FL Supremes that were ruthless Dems.
"Governor, if Kitty Dukakis were raped and murdered, would you favor an irrevocable death penalty for the killer?"
No way that question gets asked in today's media landscape, no? The question was probably thought to be a softball at the time with the use of the word "irrevocable", but the imagery was horrible and that's what stuck with the voters.
Tina Fey not only erased those gains [in the VP Debate], but destroyed Palin's political career with one line in one skit on Saturday Night Live.
So true. It's one of my pet peeves that I have friends who swore to me they heard Palin say she could see "Russia from her house" despite me reading transcripts to them. I should have realized the "2 movies" Scott Adams framing at that point but I didn't.
Speaking of SNL. Does anybody remember this skit when Trump hosted SNL?
I had to look up what happened to him. Bernie Shaw got a CNN show after being bombed in Baghdad in Desert Storm. He also moderated the 2000 VP debate, one of the best and most informative ones. Many people thought the P/VP tickets should have been switched.
Kind of amazed no one has mentioned this (unless my memory is REALLY faulty) but to me the key thing leading up to the 2000 election had nothing to do with the debate. The big thing was the Elian Gonzalez debacle. How anyone can say Gore shouldve won based on the nauseating behavior of the Clinton-Gore admin during that shitshow amazes me. When Reno's goon squads pointed rifles at a crying Elian and his family to ship him back to Castro... that was the first time in my life that I was truly ashamed of my country.
readering: So we don't have to pay any attention to the next 12 months of governing and campaigning and can just tune in to the fall 2020 debates to find out if Trump will be re-elected?
I would advise so. Otherwise, you're just going to make up some fantasy narrative and get yourself so choked up on faux outrage, the stress will shave 6 months off your life.
On second thought, strike that. The sooner racists like yourself check out, the better.
I hear Trump is rounding up gays for the death camps!
Along with Waco and Ruby Ridge. Just discussing that at Neo. The jury that heard the Randy Weaver case wanted to indict the FBI sniper that killed his wife.
Yep, Gore's attempt (With help from the FL supreme court) to steal the election was shameless. Like others, I was shocked at their behavior - in 2000. Now, its just expected.
IRC, Gore just wanted a Recount in the counties he lost! How was that ever a reasonable position?
Question for the room, since we're talking about the 2000 election. I remember hearing reports that the media called Florida for Gore before voting was finished in the state. The panhandle is in a different time zone, and supposedly voting declined during the last hour because of the premature call. Does anyone know if this is true? I've never heard it verified.
When Reno's goon squads pointed rifles at a crying Elian and his family to ship him back to Castro... that was the first time in my life that I was truly ashamed of my country.
As Dr. K says; Along with Ruby Ridge (wow! let's just execute people!) and Waco (my personal favorite! "We think that there MIGHT BE some child endangerment going on! Let's KILL EVERYONE!"
Of course; let's be fair: Those people crossed the Clintons; what were they supposed to do? wait for them to commit suicide?
Well, it is easy to spot the flaw in Rubin's logic, or it should be. This is just an indication of how smart journalists really are- average intelligence or less in Rubin's case.
Along with Waco and Ruby Ridge. Just discussing that at Neo. The jury that heard the Randy Weaver case wanted to indict the FBI sniper that killed his wife.
Lon Horiuchi. He was at Ruby Ridge AND Waco. Only one grainy photo of him exists. Wonder what happened to him.
Yes, I think it can be argued that Gore's performance in the debate cost him a winnable election, but it is also possible that the last minute release of Bush's DUI from decades earlier also cost him a decisive victory in, at least, Florida, and a popular vote victory.
The thing with Gore's performance, though, is that even Saturday Night Live was mocking him relentlessly and visciously- that skit was shown over and over in the media in the last week of the campaign. However, you have to understand that Gore wasn't particularly loved on the Left at that time- they still remembered the activities of his wife, and hadn't yet forgiven her.
Andrew said... Question for the room, since we're talking about the 2000 election. I remember hearing reports that the media called Florida for Gore before voting was finished in the state. The panhandle is in a different time zone, and supposedly voting declined during the last hour because of the premature call. Does anyone know if this is true? I've never heard it verified.
And after 7 Eastern, Cokie Roberts said, “The Democrats were hoping to take advantage of some of the new people who have moved into Florida, and to pick up maybe one, maybe two, maybe three Republican-held seats in Florida. We don’t know the results there, even though the polls are closed.”
Roberts then added, roughly 20 minutes before the polls would actually close in the Panhandle, “the Democrats seem to be doing well in Florida. We’ve called the Senate race for the Democratic candidate there, so these are very important seats to the Democrats. The polls are closed.” Then, starting at 7:50 p.m. Eastern, the networks declared Gore the winner in Florida. This call was later retracted, as was a subsequent call for Bush.
"Question for the room, since we're talking about the 2000 election. I remember hearing reports that the media called Florida for Gore before voting was finished in the state. The panhandle is in a different time zone, and supposedly voting declined during the last hour because of the premature call. Does anyone know if this is true? I've never heard it verified."
All the networks called the Florida election before the polls had actually closed in the panhandle's Eastern Standard Time closing of 8:00 p.m. NBC did so first at 7:50, and the others followed almost instantly. This was probably a mistake made from the erroneous exit-polling data, but that is another story.
However, the real scandal with regards to the networks is that they were all saying Florida polls closed at 7:00 p.m. EST, which was a more significant error- they were telling people watching that you couldn't vote after 7 p.m. anywhere in Florida. I don't know how many people were effected by the false information, but the number probably is non-zero, and it probably hurt Bush vs Gore, but we will never be able to demonstrate this. In any case, Bush won anyway.
Re Ruby Ridge: Remember, that was under the presidency of Bush the Elder.
Looking back, I have a huge mismatch between the impression I formed at the time from watching the news, and the facts I learned later. It just didn't have to happen.
The Remainers hope to tie Johnson's hands with a mandate that he ask for an extension until January 31st 2020. Johnson has said he won't obey such a mandate if it passes Parliament, and it looks to me that he doesn't have to- indeed, he can actually veto such an extension in the EU's parliament as the sitting UK PM. Also, he can filibuster this new bill in the House of Lords if he wishes.
Here are the Remainer's actual, truly effective options for stopping Brexit on October 31st:
(1) Hold and win a no-confidence vote, preferably this week. Sit a new PM and government with a working majority that wants to continue to negotiate past Oct 31st by requesting and getting an extension by the EU, or get the same by winning the elections before October 31st.
(2) Pass a valid law revoking Article 50- this means Brexit, deal or no deal, is dead and the referendum's result is negated.
That they haven't done #2 above tells you all you need to know- the Remainers don't want a Brexit of any kind, but don't dare tell the voters that explicitly, nor do they want to take it to an election in which Brexit is the main platform item of difference between the parties.
Thank you, gilbar, Yancey, et al, for the info. Much appreciated.
Concerning, Ruby Ridge, it's worthwhile to read Gerry Spence's letter explaining to a friend why he defended Randy Weaver. It makes sad and infuriating reading (but also shows what a decent liberal looks like).
Of course Waco was the stimulus for the OK City bombing by Tim McVeigh. He chose the anniversary of the Waco murders for the event. I don't think he knew about the child care center but that still does not excuse the mass attack. He could have just shot the FBI agents. I don't know what top make of the mysterious third man. Maybe Nichols knows something but I see no reason why he would ever cooperate. Clinton really sicced the feds on all the people who were even peripherally involved.
Janet Reno had a history of malicious prosecution before he chose her. Some of her history.
During Reno's tenure as state attorney, she began what the PBS series Frontline described as a "crusade" against accused child abusers.[15] Reno "pioneered a controversial technique for eliciting intimate details from young children and inspired passage of a law allowing them to testify by closed-circuit television, out of the possibly intimidating presence of their suspected molesters."[16] Several of those prosecuted by Reno were either acquitted or later released by appellate judges. One defendant, "a 14-year-old boy, was acquitted after his attorneys discredited the children's persistent interrogations by a psychologist who called herself the 'yucky secrets doctor'. Another was freed by a federal appeals court after 12 years in prison."[16]
In 1984, Frank Fuster, the owner of the Country Walk Babysitting Service, in a suburb of Miami, Florida, was found guilty of 14 counts of abuse[17] and sentenced to prison with a minimum of 165 years. Fuster was convicted based in large part on the testimony of his 18-year-old wife, Ileana Flores, who pleaded guilty and testified against him.[16] According to a 2002 episode of Frontline, Flores maintained that he was innocent.[16]
In 1989, as Florida state attorney, Reno pressed adult charges against 13-year-old Bobby Fijnje, who was accused of sexually molesting 21 children in his care during church services. The charges were driven by the testimony of children interviewed by mental-health professionals using techniques later discredited as a contemporary version of witch hunts.[18][19] During the trial, the prosecution was unable to present any witnesses to the alleged abuse. After two years of investigation and trial, Fijnje was acquitted of all charges.
Didn't Gore hire that expert on Alpha Males, Naomi Wolf, to teach him how to be an Alpha Male?
Beige, wasn't it?
He walked up on Bush like a robot who was unsure where his docking station was.
Did he ever mend those Tennessee fences?
He doesn't care now: got rid of Tipper, rode the EARTH IS ON FIRE! wave to ridiculous wealth, and is probably fucking some very earnest undergrads who, like, totally respect his green schtick (read that any way you want).
I wonder what, Lee, the Tory who flipped to end the majority, was paid ?
In reality Dr Lee, an MP of 9 years and former health minister who quit over Brexit, would already have voted against Mr Johnson's Brexit plans regardless of party. Meanwhile there are technically 'opposition' MPs who will support the PM. But the shift has a huge symbolic impact.
He was always a Remainer but this had to be bought.
Thanks for linking the Spence letter, Andrew. Wow, that's something. I met Randy Weaver once and I read his book, but I hadn't seen this letter. It's timely today.
Oh the fuster case, had an off the wall creep fqctor on renos part, not ileanas then there was the hot suits case, that somehow one of her top aides was charged, he ended up the doj intrlligence liason ponder that.
IIRC, Weaver missed his court appearance, the offense used to justify the FBI sending the HRT to his cabin, because the court date was changed without notifying him.
To those of you who say that Romney should have left the stage, I believe you have it backwards. Instead, he should have called out Crowley for the biased moderator she was and directed that she leave the stage.If she did not, he should simply have ignored her.
The bulling stance of Algore while standing close to Dubya during the debate layer became a Trump strategy in the 2016 debates. But Barbara Bush hit the nail on the head when she told Charlie Gibson, “I thought he was going to hit George!”
The not-so-brilliant future Warmest who made a fortune lying about climate science asked the wrong question since no one, then or now, had the slightest idea what or why the Dingell Norwood bill was proposed in the first place. So attempted intellect was replaced by the stupid act of bullying.
The bulling stance of Algore while standing close to Dubya during the debate layer became a Trump strategy in the 2016 debates.
Actually, it was Hillary who marched over into Trump's space on the stage. I thought she was attempting to do a Rick Lazio on him, accusing him of trying to intimidate the poor little female flower.
It didn't work as she was the one taking over the whole stage. He stood back and watched her.
I drove through the Idaho panhandle a couple of weeks after the siege and before the trial. You could feel the rage against the government and especially the FBI.
If by some mischance, a Democrat of this ilk were to be elected, the rage would return. People were willing to tolerate Obama in hopes that he would heal some of the anger. He made it worse.
Biden would muddle along but China would rule him. Any of the others and the country would explode.
Nickel is surging after Indonesia said it will ban exports of the metal from January...The move will create a gap in the nickel market of 100,00 tonnes a year, Colin Hamilton, a managing director of commodities research at BMO Capital Markets, told the FT. "This cuts off one of the major sources of raw material to the Chinese nickel pig iron industry."...
“IIRC, Weaver missed his court appearance, the offense used to justify the FBI sending the HRT to his cabin, because the court date was changed without notifying him.”
Talking at the range last year to a guy who used to be our state senator. He ran into Randy Weaver and his daughter (the one in his wife’s Arms when she was murdered by the FBI sharpshooter) at the county fair in Kalispell. Someone else suggested that they live quietly down towards Missoula, Hamilton etc.
Don’t usually get up quite as far as Ruby Ridge, when popping through Sandpoint, but did detour through Libby on US 2, on my way there last summer, and drove by, and took some photos. Can’t really see anything of interest on the highway, of course. But it was still one of those things that you need to do in that part of the country.
I voted for Nader that year and didn't think much of GW. Yet during this unscripted moment where Bush made fun of Gore's phony stagecraft, it looked like Gore was a goner. Gore was being over prepared and was choking under pressure. I think after this debate his handlers tampered with his makeup and in the next debate made him look like a carrot. It seemed to go from bad to worse was what I thought to myself.
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132 comments:
TV debates are where women decide which candidate means well. That's who they vote for.
One wonders if it would still have hurt him without the silly-sounding Dingell.
I think it was the sighing that made him seem too obnoxious.
W. looked real; Gore showed himself as the phony he is.
Most people don't go to rallies or even hear speeches. The debates are where they're confronted with the question, "can I stand to listen to this person for four years?"
Jennifer Rubin recently said that the Republican party and the GOP needed to be burned to the ground and everyone destroyed because of white supremacy. She's promoting a holocaust based on race.
Democracy Dies in Darkness!
Jaltcoh is conflating the primary debates with the general. Rick Perry's Oops did him in, but otherwise few normal people watch the party debates.
Tom T. said...
Most people don't go to rallies or even hear speeches. The debates are where they're confronted with the question, "can I stand to listen to this person for four years?"
LOL, a lot of truth to this. When I thought Hillary! was going to be President (which I thought until I woke up the day after election day to find that a miracle had occurred) I intended to basically disassociate myself from Politics because I couldn't imagine listening to her for four years.
Other people I can't imagine listening to: Warren, Sanders and Harris. Biden does not fall into that category, but, as Scott Adams says, he's incompetent now (also would be a terrible, creepy president). Who would enjoy Warren kvetching at them, or Sanders yelling at them, or Harris scolding them and calling them racists for four years?
Looking back, Gore was an automaton with poor social graces, and Bush was hanging on to remember his lines. It wasn't a huge mess for either side, so I can understand it being a draw.
Trump/ Hillary is best illustrated by the gender swap debate, in which m!Hillary is obviously a greasy, smug incompetent and f!Trump is a perky, aggressive go-getter. I have long thought that if Hitler was a woman, the Holocaust would have "succeeded" in its awful goals. Anyways. Hillary stans assured us that she left Trump a quivering mess, but as we see by the presence of "nasty woman" in mass media even two years later, Trump made a much stronger impression overall. Simply put, he showed Americans the mess of seething, unlovable neuroses that comprise the modern American feminist. Which is one reason they started donning their pussy hats. The advantage is clearly Trump's, but not quite as dominating as he could have been. He was an unknown factor, so a debate wasn't going to be quite as reassuring to LIVs as all the sober Republican adults promising to restore order.
Trump 2020 is when debates are really going to shine. The Democrat sacrifice will be screaming about concentration camps and nuclear war, whatever, while Trump can easily rejoin with "WTF are you talking about?" This time around, the debate will be the ultimate venue for Donald Trump to justify the various successes of his administration, and point out that the Democrat doom-mongering has been completely discredited. Biden doesn't know where he is right now, while Elizabeth Warren has even less gravitas and "accomplishment" than Hillary. The other dwarves are even less noteworthy than Warren. What it will take is a major Hollywood celebrity, but professional wrestlers are out thanks to Trump's friendship with the McMahons and most of Hollywood is in some way compromised by the Weinstein scandal.
I don't actually think there are going to be debates. This time around, PRESIDENT Trump can get a debate hosted by OANN or RSBN if he wants to badly enough. And he can definitely show Bret Baier and Neil Cavuto what he showed Megyn Kelly: that yes, he DOES own Fox News and the network will lose all relevancy without President Trump's backing.
it's really quite simple; and has been for a hundred and fifty years:
ALL THE DEMOCRATS HAVE TO DO IS NOT BE CRAZY — AND THEY CAN'T EVEN DO THAT.
My response:
To whom does the word My refer?
To John Althouse Cohen or to Ann Althouse?
I am confused by the indentation of the following paragraph.
If it is to Ann Althouse, then remove that indentation.
The indentation is the same for the two paragraphs that begin ....
Jennifer Rubin argues in the Washington Post that Biden
and
It's maddening to hear that
The first paragraph is written by John.
The second paragraph is written by whom?
Why should Gore have easily won? My recollection is that Bush led in the polls for most of the election season.
"What about the Dingell Norwood bill?"
A punch-line in search of a joke.
@Mike Sylwester
Thanks for saying that. I rewrote it to be absolutely clear.
I rely A LOT on indentation, so it worries me to think people get confused by it, but I don't want the confusion.
I can see that it's a special problem when I'm quoting myself!
Who are Jennifer Rubin's followers? I can't imagine anyone, left or right, feeling anything other than disdain for her.
Left Bank of the Charles said...
Why should Gore have easily won?
Because he was the vice-president of a recently very popular president and widely respected as a serious policy wonk (whether deserved or not, I offer no opinion here).
George W. Bush projected an eerily normal, somewhat dumb, personae. He was a gifted politician but a worthless human being and President. Sad!
When I post on FB, I make it clear by using "ME", as in this example:
FWB: You're not one of those men who reduce women to a number, are you?
Me: Not at all, seven.
THEOLDMAN
Dorian update: Just get some squalls now and then. We did dodge the bullet it seems. Bahamas, not so much.
It's maddening to hear that "it’s hard to conclude those debates were decisive in an election that was essentially a tie." If it is the case — and I think it is — that Gore ought to have won easily
Meh. Your schtick is no better/worse than her schtick. Too many variables that determine an election outcome. Sure there may be some polling that can imply there was an effect of a debate, but to conclude it was the determining factor is A) unknowable and B) unfair to every other variable.
It was like the headline yesterday- Just four states are likely to determine the outcome in 2020. Factually incorrect. All the voters in all the states determine the outcome. Knowing with a (very) high degree of certainty doesn't change their importance.
Stylistically, Gore's convention speech appealed to me more than any others I've seen, thanks largely to the lack of interruptions. It's odd that his style(s) backfired in the debates. Which was the real Gore?
Biden in a near senile old man. Well past his prime and his prime was not so hot.
It won't be any one event, but even the Dems will wake up and nominate another loser.
I hope the Dems nominate China Joe as Trump will beat him to a bloody pulp. (Insert OED reference here.)
I would say Mitt wilting in the face of Candy Crowley and Barack ganging up on him was at least pivotal, if not decisive. He ceded the high ground and correct position because #FakeNews was on Obama’s side.
"TV debates are where women decide which candidate means well. That's who they vote for."
Or at any rate, which candidate they can most satisfactorily rationalize voting for.
Means well = serious, competent, ethical, expresses American values. As Althouse told us.
That's how we got "pragmatic" Barry.
But of course, well is malleable: Mitt meant better than O, but got no credit. Make of well what you will, as Wittgenstein or Derrida, I forget which, said somewhere.
And second of course, following the Althouse theorem that no one believes what they profess to believe, Althouse and her sisters don't actually believe their rationalizations: when did O ever express an American value?
Once upon a time, Sarah Palin destroyed Joe Biden in the VP debate.
Tina Fey not only erased those gains, but destroyed Palin's political career with one line in one skit on Saturday Night Live.
There are still very few that take heed to Breitbart's governing principle: Politics is downstream from culture.
Ralph L, 7:26:
"One wonders if it would still have hurt him without the silly-sounding Dingell.
"I think it was the sighing that made him seem too obnoxious."
I think Hagar at 7:30 nails it. The problem wasn't that the name Dingell brings out my inner Beavis (it does). The problem wasn't that Gore was so condescending and off-putting (he was).
To me that moment was so bad for Gore because this move didn't come off as natural at all. It looked like he was listening to one of his advisors telling him to establish dominance through body language, and it was so genuine that it was punctured instantly with an arch look.
Gore was the kind of candidate whose every utterance and every physical move seemed calculated to get back to the script that had been written for him. The spontaneity of Bush's response - that wry but not angry look of WTF, the cordial yet dismissive nod - would have been absolutely beyond him, had the occasion arisen.
Sometimes it happens like a fly swatter or a wave.
Al Bore.
I’ve always tuned out presidents. Even those I liked. I have a life.
Democracy Dies in Darkness!
LOL - that is so freaking hilarious.
*Democracy Dies when corrupt Hillary supporters wet the bed for 3 years.*
establish dominance through body language
He'd scrapped the earth tones by then.
Yelich’s grand slam was no big deal because the Brewers only won 8-7.
>>as we like to say around the house as shorthand for losing a debate "What about the Dingell Norwood bill?"
Why can't you just quote Monty Python like normal people???
Indeed browndog, although to me fey seened like ahe was playing her greek aunt, the huntress is much more dynamic aame for juliannes bender as i called it.
It's maddening to hear that "it’s hard to conclude those debates were decisive in an election that was essentially a tie."
Biden's corruption issue is likely a tie-breaker. The question is whether and when it will be used.
Biden's Democratic primary opponents so far have steered clear, most likely because it's viewed as a doomsday weapon with party-wide ramifications even if Biden is pushed aside.
Hence, they have stuck to arguing Biden is old and out-of-touch with today's issues and electorate.
Trump also has an incentive to keep the corruption line of attack pretty much under wraps until Biden clinches the nomination.
Despite that vulnerability, a Democrat is unlikely to raise Biden's corruption problem unless it is needed to put the primary opponent over the top, pretty much only in the case of a tie (not a runaway on either side).
Jennifer Rubin recently said that the Republican party and the GOP needed to be burned to the ground and everyone destroyed because of white supremacy. She's promoting a holocaust based on race.
Not exactly, she's one of Chuck's People. She wants the GOP to teach the Deplorables a lesson about electing Donald Trump.
Chuck? You going to defend your fellow "Life Long Republican"? Or just simper away again?
If W had only said to Gore "The Men's Room is that way," the election wouldn't have been a "tie."
Mike Slywester not only wins the thread but gets a gold star for correcting Ann Althouse on grammar and punctuation. A rare deal.
LIV? OANN? RSBN?
A little courtesy would be appreciated. Do you expect others to know what these are? Or just expect others to look all these up?
@tim maguire:
Who are Jennifer Rubin's followers? I can't imagine anyone, left or right, feeling anything other than disdain for her.
The fellow Never Trumper hysterics. Rubin is almost a parody of them. She attacks Trump for doing things she herself has supported.
To me that moment was so bad for Gore because this move didn't come off as natural at all. It looked like he was listening to one of his advisors telling him to establish dominance through body language, and it was so genuine that it was punctured instantly with an arch look.
Exactly. That moment caused millions of voters to
1) recognize that Gore was being phony (like Chuck), and
2) conclude the everything else about Gore was phony (also like Chuck)
LIV? OANN? RSBN? A little courtesy would be appreciated.
LIV = Low Information Voter.
No idea on the other two
Excellent point on Gore - he killed his image and position in the election with that performance. I've long said that if Al had run as the guy he was during his concession speech after the recount was ended he would have won in a landslide.
There's no doubt in my mind that Gore's attempt to physically intimidate Bush was pre-planned and utterly doomed to failure. A complete misread of Bush's strengths and how Gore would appear.
And you know that in some pre-debate session, Gore seized upon some adviser's suggestion that, of course, that's it, we can trap him and hang him up on the Dingell-Norwood bill; unaware, of course, that less than a thousand people outside of DC could identify the bill.
The fellow Never Trumper hysterics. Rubin is almost a parody of them. She attacks Trump for doing things she herself has supported.
I can understand why George Will is a Never Trumper. He only supported Reagan after the tax cuts showed Will to be a pretentious fool. I don't understand Rubin, Kristol, Goldberg and others who are putative (Neo) conservatives. What actions do they expect from Trump that will make them happy? Are they that superficial that Trump's personality is what really offends them?
I would say Mitt wilting in the face of Candy Crowley and Barack ganging up on him was at least pivotal, if not decisive.
I agree. In 2000, I was pretty neutral as I thought Bush was a lightweight. Gore's carrying on was part of the effect but also there was a moment when Bush winked at someone below the stage, as if he did not have a care in the world as this buffoon was droning on. I thought that was a moment as significant.
Nixon's lack of TV makeup was a huge error. Ford's flub. Reagan's joke about his young and inexperienced opponent, that even Mondale laughed at, were others.
that less than a thousand people outside of DC could identify the bill.
Few knew who the leader of Pockistan was either. Because Repubs are ignorant and stupid, that was so big for Dem elites that they thought it would work again.
Are they that superficial that Trump's personality is what really offends them?
Yes, Next question.
"I would say Mitt wilting in the face of Candy Crowley and Barack ganging up on him was at least pivotal, if not decisive."
At that point, he should've walked out on them. Sure, the media would spin it as "quitter" but he needed something dramatic to show people he wasn't as milquetoast as thought. But of course, Mitt was a milquetoast loser.
Maybe not conclusive, but speaking like a human rather than a bureaucratic automaton makes much difference. E.g., Al Gore vs. Bush, Gov. Jesse Ventura vs. whomever, Trump v. Clinton.
I don't think Joe Biden has ever been able to distinguish between reality and fiction.
Obama may perhaps been genuinely concerned for him personally when he tried to tell him not to run. As a candidate for the top job, the media mob will crush his cocoon so thoroughly that even Joe Biden will have to face reality and it will break him.
He only supported Reagan after the tax cuts showed Will to be a pretentious fool.
I thought Will stood in for Carter in 1980 debate prep. Or was that in 1984?
Fen said...
LIV? OANN? RSBN? A little courtesy would be appreciated.
LIV = Low Information Voter.
No idea on the other two
OANN: One America News Network
Upstart cable news network that covers actual news, targeting disenfranchised Fox News news viewers.
RSBN: Right Side Broadcasting Network
Upstart internet (Youtube) broadcast created solely to broadcast 2016 Trump rallies wall-to-wall. It is doing quite well even with Youtube trying to make them disappear.
Blogger GingerBeer said...
If W had only said to Gore "The Men's Room is that way," the election wouldn't have been a "tie."?
I think the tie was due to Karl Rove's advice to conceal the drunk driving incident. It probably dropped Bush's Evangelical vote significantly. It made a setup that Democrat lawyer in Maine could pull off a month before the election. Terrible decision. I have always assumed Rove knew about it and blundered.
And sometimes it's being catatonically shuffled into a van that shifts the voters' mindset ...
"I think the tie was due to Karl Rove's advice to conceal the drunk driving incident. It probably dropped Bush's Evangelical vote significantly. It made a setup that Democrat lawyer in Maine could pull off a month before the election. Terrible decision. I have always assumed Rove knew about it and blundered"
Yeah, that is something you get out of the news cycle early.
Mitt meant better than O, but got no credit. Make of well what you will,
When Mitt lost the debate to Candy Crowley , people quit taking him seriously as a candidate
From that point on, the only supporters he had left were Life Long Liberals, who saw a good loser
That encounter revealed that W had a Texas Governor's populous vibe and Gore had a proud DC Entitled Aristocrat vibe.
The populism that Trump later rode to victory was already raising its head.
"It's maddening to hear that "it’s hard to conclude those debates were decisive in an election that was essentially a tie.""
Yeah, it doesn't say much for her reasoning ability.
Strange to hear two men with Southern accents debating to be President. I never thought Gore had an accent. I wonder if Bush brought that out of him.
“The key to success is sincerity. If you can fake that you've got it made.” ― George Burns
I thought everyone just skipped over Jennifer Rubin. She's a Fake-Con. Debates will be important if the D's nominate Warren or Bernie. The MSM will downplay their crazy Lefty policies and try to make them out to be "moderates" - Debates will give Trump a chance to smoke them out.
The same is true of Biden. Once Biden is nominated, he will go into "Hillary mode" making few speeches and taking only softball questions. The debates will give Trump the chance to remind everyone what a doddering old fool he is, and that his "Moderate" pose is FAKE. Get him talking about how he will pay for medicare for all, or free college, or $400 Billion for climate change, or "Open borders".
Ford LOST the election not only due to his stupid comment over Poland and Eastern Europe but his REFUSAL to explain/apologize for it. People forget it took Ford almost a week to "clarify". Incredibly, he told his advisers that if people misunderstood his remarks about Poland "that was their problem". Jerry Ford - dumbass.
Remember McCain's great performance against Obama? Yeah, me neither. He just tottered around the stage yelping about "earmarks" and "I looked in Putin's eyes and saw KGB". I tried to watch the Romney/Obama debates, but after Mitten's performance in the 2nd one, I gave up. A loser is always a loser.
I cared so little about Gore/Bush I didn't watch. I just saw the clips and SNL parody.
but his REFUSAL to explain/apologize for it. People forget it took Ford almost a week to "clarify".
Yes and they were Cheney and Rumsfeld. They could not get him to see his mistake. After the election, Cheney knew his DC career was over, so he packed up his car and went back to Wyoming. He got elected to the House and planned to stay there. He had no interest in VP in 2000. It cost him $5 million to go with Bush.
Gore lost that debate because it revealed his complete inauthenticity. He went from a supposedly smart (he of the flunking our of divinity school), if beta, policy wonk to a poorly mannered fake alpha. Bush won by being more himself.
Mondale's debate announcement that he would raise your taxes was a bigger disaster than Ford's statement, which typically was overblown by the media.
The biggest flaw regarding Jennifer Rubin is her argument that she is conservative.
Then there was also Jimmy telling people about how he discussed nuclear policy with little Amy.
Mark: "The biggest flaw regarding Jennifer Rubin is her argument that she is conservative."
We see that a lot at Althouse blog as well.
Oh, and then there is --
"Governor, if Kitty Dukakis were raped and murdered, would you favor an irrevocable death penalty for the killer?"
"No, I don't, Bernard, and I think you know that I've opposed the death penalty during all of my life. I don't see any evidence that it's a deterrent and I think there are better and more effective ways to deal with violent crime."
Mondale was 15 points behind before the debates. He lost by 18, and only won Minnesota.
Picking a woman VP and talking about "raising taxes" were "hail Mary's" - were gambles that lost. Mondale's only real hope was for Reagan to appear senile at the debates, but Reagan destroyed that with his "I will not take advantage of my opponent's youth and inexperience" joke.
In memory of Al Gore (go for cremation, you will never rest in peace on American soil):
"In the most shameful and painful act of the hand counts, the Democrats on the ground, and their operators from the Democratic National Committee and the state organization and the Gore campaign, deliberately and systematically scrutinized for challenge every military absentee ballot, and knocked out as many as they could on whatever technicality they could find or even invent.
Reports begin to filter out. The Democratic army of lawyers and operatives marches into the counting room armed with a five-page memo from a Democratic lawyer, instructing them on how to disfranchise military voters. The lawyers and operatives unspool reams of computer printouts bearing the names and party affiliation of military voters. Those who are Republicans are subject to particular and seemingly relentless scrutiny. Right down to signatures on ballots being compared with signatures on registration cards. A ballot bearing a domestic postmark because a soldier had voted, sent his ballot home to his parents and asked them to mail it in on time, is thrown out. A ballot that comes with a note from an officer explaining his ship was not able to postmark his ballot, but that he had voted on time—and indeed it had arrived in time—is thrown out, because it has no postmark.
The Democratic operatives are ruthless, focused. As one witness says, “They had a clear agenda.”
Received late Wednesday, an e-mail forwarded from a Republican who witnessed the counting of the Brevard County overseas absentee ballots.
It is 11:30 PM (Tuesday) and I have just returned from the count of absentee ballots, that started at 4PM. Gore had five attorneys there, the sole objective was to disenfranchise the military absentee voter. . . . They challenged each and every vote. Their sole intent was to disqualify each and every absentee voter. They constantly challenged military votes that were clearly legitimate, but they were able to disqualify them on a technicality. I have never been so frustrated in all my life as I was to see these people fight to prevent our active duty Military from voting. They succeeded in a number of cases denying the vote to these fine Men and Women.
This was a deliberate all out assault on the Armed Forces solely to sustain the Draft Dodger and his flunky. These people must have a hard time looking at themselves in a mirror. . . . They denied a number of votes postmarked Queens NY, ballots that were clearly ordered from overseas, clearly returned from overseas, and verified by the Post Office that DOD uses the Queens post office to handle overseas mail, were denied because it didn’t say APO, They denied military votes postmarked out of Jacksonville, Knowing full well it came from ships at sea and was flown into Jacksonville . . . .
This is what you can expect from a Gore administration a further trampling on the Military and more trampling on your rights. . . .
The attorneys there treated it all as a joke, and when my wife protested their actions she was told she didn’t understand."
They were high-fiving each other.
https://peggynoonan.com/121/
And we want to break bread with them?
Nobody elected Jennifer Rubin to be "Conservative Pundit". The liberal Wapo hired her, and she called herself that. Or rather she called herself a Neo-con. Like Max Boot, she dropped the mask over Trump. Now, she's just another Trump hating liberal.
I lost by one vote. Punching those guys made no difference.
I hadn't thought about the 2000 election in a while -- talk about dodging a bullet! The GOP fought back in Florida to resist the efforts of the Dems to steal the election, and amazingly the GOP won.
However, Florida, at the time, had a GOP Governor and Secretary of State, so they had some political clout to resist. I'm not sure that would work today in certain swing states.
I am so glad that Al Gore and Hillary Clinton have never been President of this great country. However, Trump faces a more sinister animal, and he's gonna need some allies.
Oh yeah, Jen Rubin is an idiot.
Algore's attempt at a coup should have opened a lot of people's eyes to the lengths that the left/Dems will go to in order to get and maintain power.
So we don't have to pay any attention to the next 12 months of governing and campaigning and can just tune in to the fall 2020 debates to find out if Trump will be re-elected?
only won Minnesota.
And DC.
Importantly, Repubs held the FL legislature, which would have had the last word and should have had its rules obeyed. It was just the FL Supremes that were ruthless Dems.
Bush just let Dingell-Norwood dangle.
So we don't have to pay any attention to the next 12 months of governing and campaigning ?
You can. I'm full up with crazy here.
I had forgotten the Dukakis rape question.
That moderator has been doing penance ever since.
"Governor, if Kitty Dukakis were raped and murdered, would you favor an irrevocable death penalty for the killer?"
No way that question gets asked in today's media landscape, no? The question was probably thought to be a softball at the time with the use of the word "irrevocable", but the imagery was horrible and that's what stuck with the voters.
Tina Fey not only erased those gains [in the VP Debate], but destroyed Palin's political career with one line in one skit on Saturday Night Live.
So true. It's one of my pet peeves that I have friends who swore to me they heard Palin say she could see "Russia from her house" despite me reading transcripts to them. I should have realized the "2 movies" Scott Adams framing at that point but I didn't.
Speaking of SNL. Does anybody remember this skit when Trump hosted SNL?
https://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/white-house-2018/2933531
In hindsight it looks pretty prescient.
What the D's did in Florida in 2000 was a turning point for me personally. I'd been on the fence - even considered voting for Gore along the way.
The Florida re-count cemented in my mind how corrupt the D's are.
That moderator has been doing penance ever since.
I had to look up what happened to him. Bernie Shaw got a CNN show after being bombed in Baghdad in Desert Storm. He also moderated the 2000 VP debate, one of the best and most informative ones. Many people thought the P/VP tickets should have been switched.
irrevocable death penalty
You'd have to believe the State were God to have a revocable death penalty.
Perhaps he meant mandatory death sentence.
Kind of amazed no one has mentioned this (unless my memory is REALLY faulty) but to me the key thing leading up to the 2000 election had nothing to do with the debate. The big thing was the Elian Gonzalez debacle. How anyone can say Gore shouldve won based on the nauseating behavior of the Clinton-Gore admin during that shitshow amazes me. When Reno's goon squads pointed rifles at a crying Elian and his family to ship him back to Castro... that was the first time in my life that I was truly ashamed of my country.
readering: So we don't have to pay any attention to the next 12 months of governing and campaigning and can just tune in to the fall 2020 debates to find out if Trump will be re-elected?
I would advise so. Otherwise, you're just going to make up some fantasy narrative and get yourself so choked up on faux outrage, the stress will shave 6 months off your life.
On second thought, strike that. The sooner racists like yourself check out, the better.
I hear Trump is rounding up gays for the death camps!
"There you go again."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_you_go_again
The big thing was the Elian Gonzalez debacle.
Along with Waco and Ruby Ridge. Just discussing that at Neo. The jury that heard the Randy Weaver case wanted to indict the FBI sniper that killed his wife.
J. Farmer said...The fellow Never Trumper hysterics. Rubin is almost a parody of them. She attacks Trump for doing things she herself has supported.
That makes sense. They are a self-parody, so it's fitting that they rally around a self-parody.
Yep, Gore's attempt (With help from the FL supreme court) to steal the election was shameless. Like others, I was shocked at their behavior - in 2000. Now, its just expected.
IRC, Gore just wanted a Recount in the counties he lost! How was that ever a reasonable position?
Question for the room, since we're talking about the 2000 election. I remember hearing reports that the media called Florida for Gore before voting was finished in the state. The panhandle is in a different time zone, and supposedly voting declined during the last hour because of the premature call. Does anyone know if this is true? I've never heard it verified.
Wilbur said...
LIV? OANN? RSBN?
A little courtesy would be appreciated. Do you expect others to know what these are? Or just expect others to look all these up?
9/3/19, 8:41 AM
I hoped at this late date people would be familiar with these terms, but evidently not. Others explained it, but for the future:
LIV = low information voter.
OANN = One America News Network, way better than Fox.
RSBN = my go to channel for Trump events.
When Reno's goon squads pointed rifles at a crying Elian and his family to ship him back to Castro... that was the first time in my life that I was truly ashamed of my country.
As Dr. K says; Along with Ruby Ridge (wow! let's just execute people!)
and Waco (my personal favorite!
"We think that there MIGHT BE some child endangerment going on! Let's KILL EVERYONE!"
Of course; let's be fair:
Those people crossed the Clintons; what were they supposed to do? wait for them to commit suicide?
Well, it is easy to spot the flaw in Rubin's logic, or it should be. This is just an indication of how smart journalists really are- average intelligence or less in Rubin's case.
Along with Waco and Ruby Ridge. Just discussing that at Neo. The jury that heard the Randy Weaver case wanted to indict the FBI sniper that killed his wife.
Lon Horiuchi. He was at Ruby Ridge AND Waco. Only one grainy photo of him exists. Wonder what happened to him.
Yes, I think it can be argued that Gore's performance in the debate cost him a winnable election, but it is also possible that the last minute release of Bush's DUI from decades earlier also cost him a decisive victory in, at least, Florida, and a popular vote victory.
The thing with Gore's performance, though, is that even Saturday Night Live was mocking him relentlessly and visciously- that skit was shown over and over in the media in the last week of the campaign. However, you have to understand that Gore wasn't particularly loved on the Left at that time- they still remembered the activities of his wife, and hadn't yet forgiven her.
Andrew said...
Question for the room, since we're talking about the 2000 election. I remember hearing reports that the media called Florida for Gore before voting was finished in the state. The panhandle is in a different time zone, and supposedly voting declined during the last hour because of the premature call. Does anyone know if this is true? I've never heard it verified.
Yep! this link covers it, i think (it's behind paywall)
THE MEDIA; A Flawed Call Adds to High Drama. The Florida projection had been made by the networks at shortly before 8 p.m. Eastern time
here's another one
‘Polls Are Closed,’ They Lied
the media called Florida for Gore before voting was finished in the state.
I don't remember that being refuted.
Gore just wanted a Recount in the counties he lost!
No, it was just 3 populous and heavily Dem counties where he could get/steal more votes more easily.
And after 7 Eastern, Cokie Roberts said, “The Democrats were hoping to take advantage of some of the new people who have moved into Florida, and to pick up maybe one, maybe two, maybe three Republican-held seats in Florida. We don’t know the results there, even though the polls are closed.”
Roberts then added, roughly 20 minutes before the polls would actually close in the Panhandle, “the Democrats seem to be doing well in Florida. We’ve called the Senate race for the Democratic candidate there, so these are very important seats to the Democrats. The polls are closed.” Then, starting at 7:50 p.m. Eastern, the networks declared Gore the winner in Florida. This call was later retracted, as was a subsequent call for Bush.
Andrew asked:
"Question for the room, since we're talking about the 2000 election. I remember hearing reports that the media called Florida for Gore before voting was finished in the state. The panhandle is in a different time zone, and supposedly voting declined during the last hour because of the premature call. Does anyone know if this is true? I've never heard it verified."
All the networks called the Florida election before the polls had actually closed in the panhandle's Eastern Standard Time closing of 8:00 p.m. NBC did so first at 7:50, and the others followed almost instantly. This was probably a mistake made from the erroneous exit-polling data, but that is another story.
However, the real scandal with regards to the networks is that they were all saying Florida polls closed at 7:00 p.m. EST, which was a more significant error- they were telling people watching that you couldn't vote after 7 p.m. anywhere in Florida. I don't know how many people were effected by the false information, but the number probably is non-zero, and it probably hurt Bush vs Gore, but we will never be able to demonstrate this. In any case, Bush won anyway.
sure why not
https://dailycaller.com/2019/09/03/chicago-mayor-blames-republicans-gun-violence/
in the panhandle, certainly I worked that campaign, we were still counting ballots
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/09/03/brexit-latest-news-boris-johnson-no-deal-vote-general-election/
Re Ruby Ridge: Remember, that was under the presidency of Bush the Elder.
Looking back, I have a huge mismatch between the impression I formed at the time from watching the news, and the facts I learned later. It just didn't have to happen.
Narciso, we don't have Telegraph subscriptions. An excerpt?
they don't limit
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/03/phillip-lee-quits-tories-leaving-government-without-a-majority
On Brexit:
The Remainers hope to tie Johnson's hands with a mandate that he ask for an extension until January 31st 2020. Johnson has said he won't obey such a mandate if it passes Parliament, and it looks to me that he doesn't have to- indeed, he can actually veto such an extension in the EU's parliament as the sitting UK PM. Also, he can filibuster this new bill in the House of Lords if he wishes.
Here are the Remainer's actual, truly effective options for stopping Brexit on October 31st:
(1) Hold and win a no-confidence vote, preferably this week. Sit a new PM and government with a working majority that wants to continue to negotiate past Oct 31st by requesting and getting an extension by the EU, or get the same by winning the elections before October 31st.
(2) Pass a valid law revoking Article 50- this means Brexit, deal or no deal, is dead and the referendum's result is negated.
That they haven't done #2 above tells you all you need to know- the Remainers don't want a Brexit of any kind, but don't dare tell the voters that explicitly, nor do they want to take it to an election in which Brexit is the main platform item of difference between the parties.
Thank you, gilbar, Yancey, et al, for the info. Much appreciated.
Concerning, Ruby Ridge, it's worthwhile to read Gerry Spence's letter explaining to a friend why he defended Randy Weaver. It makes sad and infuriating reading (but also shows what a decent liberal looks like).
https://www.famous-trials.com/rubyridge/1143-spenceletter
Of course Waco was the stimulus for the OK City bombing by Tim McVeigh. He chose the anniversary of the Waco murders for the event. I don't think he knew about the child care center but that still does not excuse the mass attack. He could have just shot the FBI agents. I don't know what top make of the mysterious third man. Maybe Nichols knows something but I see no reason why he would ever cooperate. Clinton really sicced the feds on all the people who were even peripherally involved.
Janet Reno had a history of malicious prosecution before he chose her. Some of her history.
During Reno's tenure as state attorney, she began what the PBS series Frontline described as a "crusade" against accused child abusers.[15] Reno "pioneered a controversial technique for eliciting intimate details from young children and inspired passage of a law allowing them to testify by closed-circuit television, out of the possibly intimidating presence of their suspected molesters."[16] Several of those prosecuted by Reno were either acquitted or later released by appellate judges. One defendant, "a 14-year-old boy, was acquitted after his attorneys discredited the children's persistent interrogations by a psychologist who called herself the 'yucky secrets doctor'. Another was freed by a federal appeals court after 12 years in prison."[16]
In 1984, Frank Fuster, the owner of the Country Walk Babysitting Service, in a suburb of Miami, Florida, was found guilty of 14 counts of abuse[17] and sentenced to prison with a minimum of 165 years. Fuster was convicted based in large part on the testimony of his 18-year-old wife, Ileana Flores, who pleaded guilty and testified against him.[16] According to a 2002 episode of Frontline, Flores maintained that he was innocent.[16]
In 1989, as Florida state attorney, Reno pressed adult charges against 13-year-old Bobby Fijnje, who was accused of sexually molesting 21 children in his care during church services. The charges were driven by the testimony of children interviewed by mental-health professionals using techniques later discredited as a contemporary version of witch hunts.[18][19] During the trial, the prosecution was unable to present any witnesses to the alleged abuse. After two years of investigation and trial, Fijnje was acquitted of all charges.
That was when she was still in FL
Didn't Gore hire that expert on Alpha Males, Naomi Wolf, to teach him how to be an Alpha Male?
Beige, wasn't it?
He walked up on Bush like a robot who was unsure where his docking station was.
Did he ever mend those Tennessee fences?
He doesn't care now: got rid of Tipper, rode the EARTH IS ON FIRE! wave to ridiculous wealth, and is probably fucking some very earnest undergrads who, like, totally respect his green schtick (read that any way you want).
the Remainers don't want a Brexit of any kind,
I wonder what, Lee, the Tory who flipped to end the majority, was paid ?
In reality Dr Lee, an MP of 9 years and former health minister who quit over Brexit, would already have voted against Mr Johnson's Brexit plans regardless of party. Meanwhile there are technically 'opposition' MPs who will support the PM. But the shift has a huge symbolic impact.
He was always a Remainer but this had to be bought.
Thanks for linking the Spence letter, Andrew. Wow, that's something.
I met Randy Weaver once and I read his book, but I hadn't seen this letter.
It's timely today.
Oh the fuster case, had an off the wall creep fqctor on renos part, not ileanas then there was the hot suits case, that somehow one of her top aides was charged, he ended up the doj intrlligence liason ponder that.
IIRC, Weaver missed his court appearance, the offense used to justify the FBI sending the HRT to his cabin, because the court date was changed without notifying him.
To those of you who say that Romney should have left the stage, I believe you have it backwards. Instead, he should have called out Crowley for the biased moderator she was and directed that she leave the stage.If she did not, he should simply have ignored her.
The bulling stance of Algore while standing close to Dubya during the debate layer became a Trump strategy in the 2016 debates. But Barbara Bush hit the nail on the head when she told Charlie Gibson, “I thought he was going to hit George!”
The not-so-brilliant future Warmest who made a fortune lying about climate science asked the wrong question since no one, then or now, had the slightest idea what or why the Dingell Norwood bill was proposed in the first place. So attempted intellect was replaced by the stupid act of bullying.
The bulling stance of Algore while standing close to Dubya during the debate layer became a Trump strategy in the 2016 debates.
Actually, it was Hillary who marched over into Trump's space on the stage. I thought she was attempting to do a Rick Lazio on him, accusing him of trying to intimidate the poor little female flower.
It didn't work as she was the one taking over the whole stage. He stood back and watched her.
It's hard to read Gerry Spencer's letter, then return to quibbling over debate performances.
I drove through the Idaho panhandle a couple of weeks after the siege and before the trial. You could feel the rage against the government and especially the FBI.
If by some mischance, a Democrat of this ilk were to be elected, the rage would return. People were willing to tolerate Obama in hopes that he would heal some of the anger. He made it worse.
Biden would muddle along but China would rule him. Any of the others and the country would explode.
I saw a documentary a few weeks ago on some obscure cable channel. Live footage from the siege, interviews with Weaver, former FBI agents, locals..
Very well done, straight forward without government propaganda. Meaning, it was made a long time ago.
Michael K said...
Biden would muddle along but China would rule him.
____________________
like they rule Kim of NK -
And they can explode the country at will.
Via Insty:
Nickel is surging after Indonesia said it will ban exports of the metal from January...The move will create a gap in the nickel market of 100,00 tonnes a year, Colin Hamilton, a managing director of commodities research at BMO Capital Markets, told the FT. "This cuts off one of the major sources of raw material to the Chinese nickel pig iron industry."...
Indonesians hate Chinese for the same reason blacks hate Jews.
East Africans drove Indians out for the same reason.
“IIRC, Weaver missed his court appearance, the offense used to justify the FBI sending the HRT to his cabin, because the court date was changed without notifying him.”
Talking at the range last year to a guy who used to be our state senator. He ran into Randy Weaver and his daughter (the one in his wife’s Arms when she was murdered by the FBI sharpshooter) at the county fair in Kalispell. Someone else suggested that they live quietly down towards Missoula, Hamilton etc.
Don’t usually get up quite as far as Ruby Ridge, when popping through Sandpoint, but did detour through Libby on US 2, on my way there last summer, and drove by, and took some photos. Can’t really see anything of interest on the highway, of course. But it was still one of those things that you need to do in that part of the country.
Did the creepy massage accusations ever bring Al Gore under scrutiny by the #MeToo movement? Or was Al spared?
Someone else suggested that they live quietly down towards Missoula, Hamilton etc.
I think they got $3.4 million in their civil suit. Not enough but they should be able to live on that.
At least Obama hasn't killed anybody, like Clinton and Reno did.
Of course, there'e Epstein.
I voted for Nader that year and didn't think much of GW. Yet during this unscripted moment where Bush made fun of Gore's phony stagecraft, it looked like Gore was a goner. Gore was being over prepared and was choking under pressure. I think after this debate his handlers tampered with his makeup and in the next debate made him look like a carrot. It seemed to go from bad to worse was what I thought to myself.
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