In a context where men are wearing suits, shouldn't women look more polished?
I took that closeup screen capture from the photograph at "Trump's personal assistant fired after comments about Ivanka, Tiffany" (Politico).
I don't mean to body-shame anyone. I just think this is too casual for working in the White House and that it's a good idea for men and women to hit the same level of dressiness.
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189 comments:
Oh ICK!
Who wears high heeled shoes without stockings in the summer??? (or winter to be honest). Hot, sweaty feet. Sticking to the innersole and making the shoes stink. At least with stockings/hose you have a little bit of a buffer to that horrible sweating, sticking situation.
And as you get older your legs will begin to have blemishes from broken veins, age spots and a general overall lumpy look. Hose will even all that out.
There was some discussion along similar lines a few years ago when a bunch of young female athletes visited the president (in the White House) while wearing flip-flops. They of course defended their choice by arguing that there are no standards anymore.
Won’t Trump first need to overturn the ban on nylons by White House employees enacted by Bill Clinton?
If you are talking about nurses going back to the white uniforms with the hats with the shortish skirts and white silk stockings with the seam up the back, you can count me in. Otherwise, I guess this is “inside baseball” for women.
it's a good idea for men and women to hit the same level of dressiness.
So men should wear shorts?
Or just men with ugly knees?
NO.
Die pantyhose, die. and stay dead.
Yes, I enjoy looking at women's legs in nylons. And it they want to dangle the front of their high-heel on their toes, that's fine, too.
Seriously, though, women get away with wearing just about anything in the workplace and it needs to be reeled in. Some of the outfits I see in the office and around DC are nothing short of comical.
I know - I'm a misogynist for thinking that. I'll go sit in the corner and pen my apology.
Kevin,
Did Clinton ban nylons or just pantyhose?
As LBJ said "Gerald Ford's economics is the worst thing that's happened to this country since pantyhose ruined finger-fucking."
John Henry
Proudly fly your ugly freaky bruised flabby scarred hairy legs.
(I do agree that barefeet in high heels is a problem)
You'd think the women would feel under-dressed.
Trump should require all WH women except Melania wear black pants and leotard-top with neon sweater in preparation for the general election.
Wear longer skirts. or pants. Just wear pants.
I do agree that a dress that sits above the knee is a more playful and casual look that doesn't belong in a professional setting.
Blame the fashion industry. Fashion is designed by bubble dwelling gay men or frumpy women.
What happened to trying to flatter the female form?
What's the problem? What would hose solve?
Totally agree, Althouse! And MEN should definitely write and enforce the policy.
I don't get it. Women have a thing for nylons I guess.
Access to nylons turned up in Foyle's War, life in rationed WWII Britain, as a huge woman turn-on. Apparently American GIs could get them for you, or black market operators.
Fat legs with nylons vs thin legs without would be a better test.
I had some unorthodox use for pantyhose years ago, I wonder what it was. Ah, trapping dryer lint.
"What happened to trying to flatter the female form?”
They like women who look like boys, and they finally got what they wanted all along with that trans model. It’s a big no no to try to appeal to the “male gaze” in any way.
Pantyhose should be used to strangle the 'always digging for dirt on Trump' pro-Corruption-Clinton press.
"What's the problem? What would hose solve?"
The fact that you don't know is a testament to the greatness of nylons.
The legs still look bare, but they are enclosed in a way that creates polish and formality. There is color and translucency that evens out the shadows — the dimpling and dents of ordinary flesh — and the color — all the little discolorations and bruising and veininess. It's like what foundation makeup does for the skin of a face.
Women in a professional setting are always comical.
The archetype, 1922
https://www.shorpy.com/node/24994
Wearing pantyhose on a hot summer day is like wearing a jockstrap + spray foam fiber wrap around your penis in Phoenix in July.
The fact that you don't know is a testament to the greatness of nylons.
It seems like the opposite. Not particularly noticing would be testament to the indifference of guys to female self-flattery.
Even wearing high heels is the mark of a woman who is always going to take too long to get ready for this and that.
Practicality is what you want in a woman.
BB&Hammers
NO.
Die pantyhose, die. and stay dead.
Pantyhose are horrible too. However if you have to be dressed for the office and it is hot, humid, Midwest air like hot soup season. I suggest Plazzo Pants or even better Katherine Hepburn sytle pants
You look nice, the airy pants keep you cool, you can wear socks or knee high hose with your heels.
I wore those when I had to attend conferences in a big Midwest city for my broker-dealer's meetings. We were to wear business appropriate clothing. Suits and ties for the men and business suits for the women. Screw that I was sweating before I left the hotel room in the humid summer air.
Loose, but fitting, pants with dressy high heeled sandals or toed look pumps. Light weight shirt or silk sleeveless tee, and if I must....a light, short but fitted jacket that I could take off as soon as I was gone from the meetings.
Pants. Hides your legs. Look dressy. AND COMFORTABLE.
Also there is something conceptually grungy about feet in closed shoes. If you're in a situation where sandals are inappropriate, I think some hosiery is needed. Now, there are little footcoverings that you can wear inside shoes that don't show. We used to call them "peds." Can't remember what the current term is.
For DC in the summer I would wear as little as I could get away with. As a guy that might condemn me to seersucker. But women without hose should not complain that AC is sexist.
If women wore pantyhose again they wouldn't be so cold at the office.
DBQ - Indeed. I'm all for pants.
**The exception is a really hot day outside. **in the rose garden.
I don't understand the complaint about summer. I am only talking about people who work in an office, and that's going to be air conditioned. Why is it comfortable to have completely bare legs in that situation? If you have an extended walk outdoors in the summer (as opposed to a 0.10-mile walk to your air-conditioned car, you could put on the stockings when you get to work and take them off just before you leave. You probably change your shoes for the office anyway!
Agree. Even the young with perfect smooth, tanned skin that looks as good as stockings. It's too casual.
But first order of business is to get the middle-aged and old to present their raddled flesh in a more seemly manner.
Wearing pantyhose on a hot summer day is like wearing a jockstrap + spray foam fiber wrap around your penis in Phoenix in July.
Guys' fluids stay pretty much inside.
Pantyhose can cause yeast infections. You know -- in women's yeast hole.
Thigh-high stockings would be the best answer.
I am Laslo.
Does anybody else see Hillary Clinton’s face in SHS’s right knee?
I like that it's OK to have bare legs if you want.
Back in the day nylons or "pantyhose" were a must. Now that they are no longer "in", I think at this point nylons would look odd. If it looks odd with or without nylon hosiery, go without. but yeah - lower the skirt a bit in a professional setting. It's better for all involved.
The notion that pantyhose are too hot to wear in summer (in an office where men are wearing suits and ties) is just nuts.
BB&Hammers Wearing pantyhose on a hot summer day is like wearing a jockstrap + spray foam fiber wrap around your penis in Phoenix in July.
Exactly!!
Obviously, not all the Plazzo Pants in my link are work appropriate :-)
I don't understand the complaint about summer. I am only talking about people who work in an office, and that's going to be air conditioned.
The humidity where the sweat never evaporates from your body, like in DC. The heat in SouthWest areas. Yeah...it is a "dry heat" but miserable just the same.
If you live and work in Phoenix you not only need A/C in your car and everywhere else, you need oven mitts in the car or gloves in your purse to be able drive, to touch the vehicle (or anything else in the environment) without getting burned. Panty hose are just one more added misery.
First thought: Given that this administration's members are literally Nazis, they ought to have a steady supply of silk stocking from cheeky prisoners dealing under the table.
Second thought: Wonder what a TV show made a la Hogan's Heroes about the Undocumented Migrant centers at the border would be like...
AA: If you have an extended walk outdoors in the summer (as opposed to a 0.10-mile walk to your air-conditioned car, you could put on the stockings when you get to work and take them off just before you leave.
There's hot and there's hot. Having lived and worked in tropical and sub-tropical climes for most of my life I understand the temptation to wear as little as one can get away with. I loathe hot weather, and every scrap of fabric adds to the misery.
But I don't approve of succumbing. Somehow our foremothers in Florida and Texas managed to present themselves professionally and formally when the time and place called for it.
correction: "lower the skirt" = lower the skirt's hemline to below the knee.
I don’t think that men over thirty would be that happy, by and large, if the style for men was bare torsos and the office had a lot of 20 something men parading around with no shirts.
Absolute insanity in Austin in June-July-August-September. Yes, it's nicely air-conditioned in the offices, but it's nearly two blocks from my office to the parking garage, and then there's stopping at HEB to get supper, and stopping at Valero for gasoline, and picking up Bobby at day care, and you become hot and miserable very quickly. It was 103 degrees with a relative humidity of 44% one night earlier this week when I left the office, and no hose as far as the eye could see. In fact, many women in Austin, if they're going straight home, will lose their bra when they get to their car. Even the executives in our office don't wear hose, unless there is an extremely crucial meeting. Oh, and taking off shoes is very commonly done. I can't tell you how many women in my building work barefoot. It's just that hot in Central Texas.
Hose is worn in Austin to job interviews and funerals, and that's it.
Yes to this idea. Unless your bare legs look like a model’s, you are probably improving them with the hose.
Definitely a more polished look. Bare skin other than arms just looks odd and inappropriate and too personal in a professional setting. The definition of informal, really.
You’re not on a picnic.
The term is <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palazzo_pants>palazzo pants</a>, not "plazzo pants."
"Palazzo" is the Italian word for "palace."
The notion seems connected to "harem pants."
The legs on the right perfectly illustrate why heavy-ish legs should NOT culminate in aggressively pointy shoes.
I have other sartorial advice if women need it.
I am Laslo.
" spray foam fiber wrap around your penis in Phoenix in July.”
It’s funny to hear women imagine what it must be like to have a penis. Better to say it’s like men wearing long pants in Phoenix in July.
On younger white women I like white hose, and for some unresolved reason I really like navy blue hose, or none. On black women I like red hose or none. In India I prefer the glory of a sari, bare legged. SE Asian women I don't date.
Just no return to "women must wear heels of x-inches to work" rule that some dress codes required, OK? I remember the poor older lady in my mom's church group who was required to wear at-least 2 inch heels for her on-her-feet-all-day job working retail. (As if people with poorly-paying jobs don't have enough trouble meeting their bills, without piling on the podiatrists' and other medical expenses.) There are perfectly professional looking flat and low-heeled shoes.
After a long day, you remove your nylons and they are all stretched out and yucky. Yeah - nobody wants to put used nylons back on.
Remember that feeling when you'd open the fresh nylon egg, and the nylons were crinkled and virgin. Once used, they never felt the same going back on. This is one of many reasons nylon pantyhose needed to die.
Remember soaking them in the sink and then drying them on the clothes-line? Again - this is a waste of time.
Live free.
The term "palazzo" for pants goes back only to 1966 (according to the OED).
From the Wikipedia link in my previous comment:
"Palazzo pants for women first became a popular trend in the late 1960s and early 1970s. The style was reminiscent of the wide-legged cuffed trousers worn by some women fond of avant-garde fashions in the 1930s and 1940s, particularly actresses such as Katharine Hepburn, Greta Garbo and Marlene Dietrich. During the 1960s, some upscale restaurants resisted modern fashion trends by refusing to admit women wearing trousers, which were considered inappropriate by some proprietors. This posed a problem for women who did not want to wear the skirt styles that were then in fashion. Some women opted to circumvent restaurant bans on women in pants by wearing palazzo trousers or culottes as evening wear. Palazzo pants flare out evenly from the waist to the ankle, and are therefore different from bellbottoms, which are snug until they flare out from the knee. Palazzo pants are also not to be confused with Gaucho trousers, which only extend down to mid-calf length. Harem pants are yet another loose style, but they have a snug cuff around the ankles."
Another alternative in summer is a very long skirt, but that's too casual for an office where men are in suits. It's a good option with sandals and more comfortable than pants or shorts, which are always grabbing your crotch.
I note that Ivanka and Melania where long (but not THAT long) skirts, and it looks nice and dressy at the same level as men in suits. I've never figured out if they're wearing nylons.
Speaking as a man who is only trying to be helpful and has no ulterior motives whatsoever, let me offer that stockings and garter belts would be a little cooler.
Panty hose trap the heat that your body generates. This is why many guys who go hunting in cold and wintry areas wear panty hose under their camo gear. To KEEP WARM.
They keep you warm. Cheaper than silk thermal wear. Are less bulky than regular 'long johns' AND bonus, they help prevent ticks and fleas from biting you through the panty hose.
Perhaps the women in LA should wear hose as a preventative to getting Typhus from the flea and bedbug infestations created by the scourge of homeless garbage and sewage piles.
It is 90 degrees with a 80% humidity index. Pantyhose.Sweat and body odor trap. Ick.
The notion that pantyhose are too hot to wear in summer (in an office where men are wearing suits and ties) is just nuts.
Maybe. If you are 100% in the office, don't have to go out to business lunches, business meetings off site, meetings with clients at their places of work, or have an after work meeting. You also would need to have a convenient place to change clothes several times a day.
But to each his/her own I guess.
Saw a lady wearing nylons at an event recently and it struck me how unnatural an appearance they present. It actually reminded me of the flat, evenly covered effect from the make-up they use on HDTV sets, like news presenters. Half the other females there were sporting very form fitting yoga pants, accentuating every curve and crease of the underlying physique. I still laugh at the fact some dude created these specifically to be revealing yet millions of women made it their everyday outfit.
Thigh highs for the car.
The term is palazzo pants, not "plazzo pants."
Oops. My spelling error :-)
Lots of women here wear athleisure, Lululemon-esque yoga pants. Nylons seem cooler, as comfortable, and just as flattering? Maybe Lululemon should sell nylons ...
Absolutely!
Bring back Nylon Stockings! Pantyhose was a failed design!!
Don't confuse Palazzo pants with Pazuzu pants.
They may look similar, but the devil is in the details.
I am Laslo.
You don't see HRC's face?
It's right there, at the top of the SHS's right knee!
And yoga pants are also known as Pastrami Pants.
Because the crotch is so tight you can see the Pastrami.
I am Laslo.
@ Jeff: Speaking as a man who is only trying to be helpful and has no ulterior motives whatsoever, let me offer that stockings and garter belts would be a little cooler.
Well yes. They are cooler and my husband appreciates the ones that do have.
However, when pantyhose first came out, every woman who wore garter belt and hose to work sighed in relief. You ever sat all day at a desk or typewriter with those hard whatchamacallems that hook the nylons to the hosiery? You end up sitting directly on the damned things or you have to fidget and keep moving them around.
They were uncomfortable and that is putting it mildly.
That was in the olden days, however. Perhaps they are better now for "work purposes" :-)
Have the powers that be invented a sheer nylon that doesn’t run? I disliked spending money on something that had a 50/50 chance of becoming garbage within the first few minutes of putting them on.
I also disliked having my boyfriend/husband seeing me in them during the process of dressing and undressing. I felt very unsexy. With the control top no slip waist, the crotch that always seemed to be 2 inches south of where it should have been, and the reinforced toe I felt ugly. Garters as an alternative left you with lumps under your clothes. Thigh highs did solve a lot of those issues except to keep them looking sleek and smooth you had to pull them up high enough to get a stretch...oh, look at that my new pair of nylons ran.
"I had some unorthodox use for pantyhose years ago, I wonder what it was. Ah, trapping dryer lint."
Hints from Heloise used to specialize in things you could do with used pantyhose, like wrap a sponge in the cut-up fabric to make it into a scrub-cleaning device of a gentle sort or whatever.
yes, I will join you.
For many women over 22 who need to meet this current fashion no-no, you need friggin makeup on your legs!
what is sad is the fashion absolutism, that now it is gauche, quaint, unfashionable to wear flesh-toned hosiery (black-toned hose that coordinate with your outfit are still OK, thank goodness).
personally, i favor skirts over pants any day, for the simple freedom that i don't have to almost completely undress in order to pee. (women are built differently from men in that arena) yes, it's true i have to pull down my undies + hose and pull them back up, but that's a lot less than the buttons and zippers of pants plus the tucked-in blouses -- with pants a woman has to deconstruct and reconstruct one's outfit at every visit to the loo. ptewy!
to freedom!
Serious Question?
Does women's (some women's) crazed and bizarre demand, for REALLY WARM OFFICES, come from not wearing some sort of stockings?
Men wearing shoes, sox, pants (underpants), shirts (with ties) and jackets
Women walking around nearly naked; with a thin wisp of gauzy fabric: No Sox; PROBABLY no undies
AA: the fact that you (and we) cannot tell whether Ivanka and Melania are wearing hose or not is a form of winning at this game.
As compared to that picture at the top of the post.
It is true that bare feet in pumps could be a sweaty proposition but it is easily solved by insoles.
Laslo: The legs on the right perfectly illustrate why heavy-ish legs should NOT culminate in aggressively pointy shoes.
I admit I had the same uncharitable reaction.
(Mme Buzzard, style nazi, sez: Do not wear shoes that make your legs and feet suggest pigs' trotters.)
Not in the summer in DC. No way.
"After a long day, you remove your nylons and they are all stretched out and yucky. Yeah - nobody wants to put used nylons back on."
Who puts dirty nylons back on?! You wash them in the sink with a bar of soap, rinse them and hang them to dry in the bathroom.
"Remember that feeling when you'd open the fresh nylon egg, and the nylons were crinkled and virgin. Once used, they never felt the same going back on. This is one of many reasons nylon pantyhose needed to die."
You just admitted that you used the inferior brand, L'Eggs. They were pretty gross even when new — a terrible rough texture and no built in shape, just a lot of stretchiness. If you're in the level of job I'm talking about, you can afford a better quality brand.
"Remember soaking them in the sink and then drying them on the clothes-line? Again - this is a waste of time."
You don't have to soak them and I've never heard of drying nylons outside on a clothes line. How would you keep them from blowing away? Use a clothes pin? How would you keep them from getting snags and runs?
"Live free."
In an office??
I quit wearing hose years ago. They are hot and expensive. The expense is nothing to sneeze at. In order for hose to look good, they have to be sheer. (I agree that extremely sheer, flesh-toned hose look fabulous.). Very sheer hosiery runs easily and snags even more easily. A run means a total loss, and snags look tacky. I could easily go through several pairs of hose a month, and at $11-15/pair, the expense adds up. No man has to incur a running expense of $30-50/month in order to wear a suit and tie. (And women have to dry clean clothes just as men do.)
I call on physicians—and I am almost always better dressed than they. (Appropriately—always dress a little better than your customers!). Most of the men quit wearing ties years ago (they are vectors for disease, ick). The women are mostly frumpy. They have grave matters on their minds—life and death—so noticing whether I wear hose is probably not a priority for them.
The one problem I have is that my tendency to wipe out on the trails I run means I almost always have frightening scrapes and bruises all over. It gives us something to talk about.
Women spend a lot of time being professional, where guys just do what interests them. Anyway if they're not butlers or headwaiters.
Wear longer skirts if you want high-level professional context.
"Panty hose trap the heat that your body generates. This is why many guys who go hunting in cold and wintry areas wear panty hose under their camo gear. To KEEP WARM.
They keep you warm. Cheaper than silk thermal wear. Are less bulky than regular 'long johns' AND bonus, they help prevent ticks and fleas from biting you through the panty hose.
[...]the flea and bedbug infestations"
Bret Stephens was last week.
"So professional she could hardly walk"
The women have only “influencers” in their slutty outfits to go on. And their mothers never get out of yoga pants. And the entire Dying culture is telling them to do their own thing and any conceivable criticism will send them running to the cops. Travel through an airport to see the future of fashion. The only men in suits and ties will be on the 7 AM Monday flight to NY.
"Seriously, though, women get away with wearing just about anything in the workplace and it needs to be reeled in."
When I was in a managerial position supervising dozens of my company's employees at a government site in DC, I never felt comfortable in setting and enforcing standards for the women on my team. It was much easier for men, but on reflection, I think I was doing a disservice to the women by letting them "get away" with lower standards. Although I respected all of the members of my team, I can see how there was a level of disrespect in my actions, although certainly not intended. My boss, a woman and dear friend to this day, set stricter standards for all of us onsite and was clear in what she expected from everybody. Things were easier after that.
Why wear suits where the weather is not ... suitable?
I call for a more open mind about business wear. Stop being dreary.
Wear a barong
https://www.amazon.com/IMG-OUTDOORS-Barong-Tagalog-X-Large/dp/B07R2MSVQJ/ref=asc_df_B07R2MSVQJ/?tag=bingshoppinga-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid={creative}&hvpos={adposition}&hvnetw=o&hvrand={random}&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=e&hvdev=t&hvdvcmdl={devicemodel}&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=&hvtargid=pla-4583932702405036&psc=1
- look, but use the Althouse portal
Or a Chinese gown
https://www.goodorient.com/For_Men_C100/Long_Gown_C104/glg1005/dragon-icon-long-chinese-clothing
I believe this is on Amazon too.
https://brewminate.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Kimono10.jpg
And of course, kimonos.
The Euro approach does require a return of hose, and good calves.
http://www.cobbcreek.com/clothing/mens/frockcoat.jpg
I actually read that article. Typical of Politico, the spam comments were better than the others.
When “Casual Friday’s” erupted the outfits women chose were quite something to see. Cut off jeans up to ass cheeks, midriff revealing tee shirts, the lot. So many women had no fucking idea of what was appropriate. Someone, men?, had to write standards. It took a while to work.
Kind of hard to disagree with Ann after seeing the lady on the right.
What happened to trying to flatter the female form?
That's what I said to HR but they weren't having any of it!
Ladies, if you dont have, er, exceptional legs, try some other approach.
Walk gracefully in some other style.
If one is of a "certain age" the Dowager Empress look works. A matter of personality as well as style naturally.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32659436400.html
Again, you can probably get this on Althouse Amazon.
The women have only “influencers” in their slutty outfits to go on.
You've got an entire thread of people here missing the point -- thinking that the problem is pantyhose or not.
Nylon stockings and a bit about their pre-war discovery at Du Point: link. The second stylized photo of the woman in stockings is a favorite of mine.
Seriously, though, women get away with wearing just about anything in the workplace and it needs to be reeled in.
You mean like the ones with their boobs hanging out with low cleavage and acting as if it is YOU who has the problem with it?
I think Westerhout has 2 bandaids on her left shin!
Got to give her credit for the subtle match to the skin tone.
buwaya: And of course, kimonos.
Men's "formal" kimonos look great. Manly. Enable the wearer to be the last word in elegance without being the least bit foppish. The East-faring man's equivalent of the Cary-Grant-in-North-by-Northwest suit.
Women's kimonos also look great. Don't know how comfortable or uncomfortable a traditional formal/professional kimono get-up would be. Sure look snazzy, though, when put together by a woman of taste.
Long live bare legs. If you have fat or ugly legs, wear a longer skirt or dress. I’m quite sure Melania and Ivanka are not wearing pantyhose with their dresses. Wearing panty hose nowadays, especially in summer makes you dated. Wear tights in winter if your legs are going to get cold, or a pair of soft knee high leather boots.
Nylons have that cheap one-size-fits-all circulation-cutting waist-band.
Here's a photo of Ivanka where I think you can see that she's wearing stockings (and it looks great).
In other pictures there, it's hard to tell. I think she does both.
Something I particularly dislike (and see in some of the Ivanka pictures) is bony looking feet in closed shoes. I think stockings soften the look of feet, which really are generally stringy looking (if they're not puffy and swollen).
"You just admitted that you used the inferior brand, L'Eggs. "
LOL. So?
I used to wear all sorts of brands of nylons. L'Eggs were the most accessible. You could buy them at the grocery store!
In any case - nylons suck and I'm glad the trend to wear them is DEAD.
Ivanka would look amazing in a potato sack, with or without nylon hosiery.
Numerous pictures of Melania not wearing pantyhose
Odd.
We had a friend who worked in the GW Bush administration about 15 years ago. She gave us an after hours tour of the West Wing before she went home for the evening. Even after hours she was required to wear a skirt, hose and heels. After the tour (really great, BTW), we returned to her office in the Eisenhower Building so she could change into more casual clothes before we walked her to the Metro station after 11:00pm.
Ann - The bottom line with you is that you don't like bare legs - on men or women.
It's OK - we forgive you. ;-)
If you have fat or ugly legs, wear a longer skirt or dress.
It's that time again. Once a year I agree with Inga. Short skirts are for women under 30.
crica 1980's - what female hasn't run out of Walgreens with a pack of condoms, some L'eggs, and some cheap Mascara?
Short skirts are for women under 30.
Short skirts are for women outside the office, outside of church, outside of any professional setting.
Agreement about short skirts at work. A short skirt is not professional.
The trend of the "midi" dress is a strong one right now. Just above the knee.
OK - perhaps that is OK? Certainly for less professional settings. Like a wedding.
I also don't know the remedy for high heels and sandals in the summer. With nylons = tacky.
without nylons = icky.
Melania Trump is extraordinarily chic and extremely decorative.
Cool, calm and beautiful, with more than a hint of the exotic, and an air of authority.
An actress of course, who has created her own role. She wasn't born into this.
A peasant girl who will look natural as a dowager empress. Thats something.
Well said, buwaya @ 10:37. This is my take on Melania, as well.
They like women who look like boys, and they finally got what they wanted all along with that trans model. It’s a big no no to try to appeal to the “male gaze” in any way.
I don’t know about that.
It seems to me females are trying really hard to get a Barbie shape.
Not joining. I endorse the freedom to be comfortable and look crappy. Then other people have the freedom to have catty thoughts, but they should keep them to themselves (or to blogs like this and Tom & Lorenzo).
Yes, kimonos for all! Good idea. And, IMHO, the suit and tie thing is what needs to go. Why are men still stuck in that rut?
As I've always worn pantyhose with dresses/skirts I don't have an objective view on that. I'd prefer, though, to see skirts cut just at the base of the knee rather than above. I don't find knees attractive.
Does anyone remember the old Mervyn’s commercial with the women leaning on the glass doors chanting, “Open open open”? That was me on the day my last pair of hose ran and I snuck out of work to buy another pair of Hanes.
L’eggs might have been cheap, thick and ugly but they always lasted longer than Hanes.
When you are 28 and attractive, you can wear...or not wear....whatever you want and still look amazing.
- Krumhorn
I am always amused when I see clips from talking body shows. There are usually two or three guys, sitting there wearing clothes you could change a tire in, and some hot gal in a dress that is extremely short or bright red or both, with just really nice legs, recrossing her knees every 30 seconds. Like, Honey? If you're here to put on a show, get a pole, and play some music.
My ville was once a major producer of hose and socks since the early 1900's. In the mid & late 70's, we had 20% unemployment because of women's pants and jeans. Fortunately, other employers came in and revived the area in the 80's, though downtown is half its old size.
The thought of synthetic underwear of any type makes me cringe. Am I the only person with sweaty butt crack (SBC)?
Oh, wait. You're a serious professional and your views deserve to be taken seriously. Sorry, it's hard to keep that in mind when you could comfortably nestle a cantaloupe in your cleavage.
Men don’t have to wear nylons. So it’s not fair!
Openidname: Not joining. I endorse the freedom to be comfortable and look crappy. Then other people have the freedom to have catty thoughts...
That's one way of looking at it. On the other hand demanding the "freedom" to "be comfortable and look crappy" anywhere at any time one pleases can be seen as a spoiled child's lack of respect for other human beings, or a dumb-ass's degraded apprehension of the meaning and purpose of freedom.
I'd prefer, though, to see skirts cut just at the base of the knee rather than above. I don't find knees attractive.
In my first ever disagreement with MT on any topic, a woman with even decent looking legs should keep the hem of her skirt above the knee. The only exception would be at a funeral where everyone is expected to look like hell. And I’m with Laslo on the thigh highs.
- Krumhorn
BleachBit-and-Hammers said...
crica 1980's - what female hasn't run out of Walgreens with a pack of condoms, some L'eggs, and some cheap Mascara?"
LOL! What memories you brought back! Long live Maybelline Great Lash!
Besides being hot, a big problem for tall women like me was finding a pair that fit correctly. L'Eggs never worked for me - the crotch of the pantyhose would end up halfway between my knees and my own crotch,which made for an awkward and uncomfortable day. If I bought a larger size, the crotch would fit, but the hose would bag at the ankles. The brand that fit me best was the el cheapo Giant store brand hose, which also tended to be more durable than other hose. I'd wear expensive sheer hose for social occasions.
Since I wore long skirts to work, I would sometimes cheat when it was hot and wear knee high hose. But that was tricky. There was nothing tackier than inadvertently revealing that you were wearing knee highs, so you had to be careful. A friend of mine was embarrassed when the elastic on her knee highs gave way when she was on her way to a business lunch on K Street and suddenly her stockings were around her ankles.
No, I don't miss the damned hose at all, although I agree it hid imperfections. It's hard to remember now that pantyhose was created in response to the shorter skirts of the 1960's and was considered a godsend by my mother's generation. We bitch but they had to fiddle around with girdles and garter belts.
The most expensive stockings in the world would not help Sarah Sanders. Show a picture of two women with attractive legs and we then can appropriately make a valid judgement.
"And, IMHO, the suit and tie thing is what needs to go. Why are men still stuck in that rut?"
Exactly. There are thousands of years and millions of square miles of good ideas.
It's interesting that the world is consumed with finding the "next big thing" in consumer goods, while ignoring that one thing that was always the primary personal expenditure after food and fuel, garments.
Modern clothing is cheap and simple and functional. A huge market in looking better is going untapped. Indeed, many of the people have been indoctrinated into spending too much to look worse.
Short skirts are for women outside the office... outside of any professional setting
Respectfully, i can think of at least TWO (well, three) types of Professionals that have mini-skirts as part of their Official Uniforms
Well, enough about the panty hose conundrums.
We have loaded the trailer with our stuff for camping and are off to a place where we can wear shorts, tank tops, bathing suits, jeans, flip flops or hiking boots and in any combination of the above..... and no one cares :-)
Thinking of you all tonight while we are BBQing our prime cut NY strip steaks and drinking scotch while listening to our music.
Why are men still stuck in that rut?
Because when we all wear more or less the same thing and in similar colors, we have less worry and a much smaller wardrobe. It's noticeable when a woman wears the same outfit twice in a fortnight.
Of course, prosperity has brought more status markers to men than shoes and watch.
The woman on the left has great legs with or without stockings. The one on the right should not wear a skirt that is any shorter than her ankles.
Ralph: It's noticeable when a woman wears the same outfit twice in a fortnight.
I think that's of rather recent origin (as in, post-WWII), and more of an American thing. You get that when the general populace can afford a lot of clothes. I never had any problem wearing the same clothes in near succession, as long as they were clean.
The best-dressed woman I ever knew was my beautiful eldest sister, and she had a wardrobe of monastic minimalism. Everything was of very high quality and fit perfectly, though, and she wore what she owned forever.
In a context where men are wearing suits, shouldn't women look more polished?
Althouse joins the Patriarchy in its oppression of young women!
Ralph: It's noticeable when a woman wears the same outfit twice in a fortnight.
I think that's of rather recent origin (as in, post-WWII), and more of an American thing.
I've seen some TV shows where the women characters wear the exact same thing in every scene of every episode. And neither they nor their children ever age. Some of them for 10-20 years.
I do think it's funny we hear complaints about offices being too cold while professional women run around with bare legs and sleeveless dresses. I'm not sure what I think about nylons, but I am tired of every woman in tv news thinking they have to wear body-con sheath dresses with no sleeves and bare legs. They look like they are going to a cocktail party, but they're reading the news.
I hate nylons, but I have worn them on occasion lately. The last time I wore them, I was nylon-shamed. "I didn't know there even were panty hose any more!" said a woman I didn't know all that well as we met up at a memorial service.
"Ann - The bottom line with you is that you don't like bare legs - on men or women."
No, actually, I love great looking legs — male and female — in the right place, with the right clothes.
My problem with men in shorts has always been about the boxy oversized t-shirt with big baggy shorts, making the man look like a sexless child.
Give me manly legs in the right shorts and not in a professional office context, and I'm happy.
I agree with the very first comment- how do you wear heels in the summer without stockings?
I prefer a bare leg on a woman if the leg is aesthetically pleasing. The one on the left is, the one on the right not so much.
Is there such a thing as an ankle stocking for wearing shoes like this with a or dress?
We should send Meade a speedo.
"They look like they are going to a cocktail party, but they're reading the news."
In context, they should consider dressing as Byzantine empresses. Of course, then they would have to make their public pronouncements through eunuchs.
A bit opposite of modern practice, where the eunuchs tell these women what to say.
For equality sake, men who work in the WH should be allowed to wear shorts and bare their hairy legs in this global warmed climate.
Okay, so nobody sees Hillary Clinton's face (perhaps wearing a pillbox hat or turban) above SHS's right knee?
Have sleeves. Even if short, nearly halfway to elbow. Have sleeves.
Here you go, Althouse.
That's Sarah on the right? I thought she had better sense.
Pantyhose are very hot. If one wants to AC down to a comfortable level for them, then it works as a dress code. But otherwise ... someone who lives in Wisconsin should not be trying to make summertime workplace dress rules for those who live in much hotter areas in which workplace temps, even airconditioned temps, are set much higher.
Yeah, neither look that great. You need to both be young and in great shape to have your legs look good without pantyhose, and even then few white women's skin really passes the test. But let's face it, Huckabee Sanders should not be wearing that dress at ALL, with pantyhose or without.
Althouse apparently just hates human knees, and does not wish to have her world sullied with the unlovely apparitions.
In these two ladies' defense, it is obviously because they are carrying bottled water out that they are preparing for some sort of outdoor event, in the summertime, in DC, which is justly famous for its heat and humidity. Not surprising that they choose to omit the hose that day.
The legs still look bare, but they are enclosed in a way that creates polish and formality. There is color and translucency that evens out the shadows — the dimpling and dents of ordinary flesh — and the color — all the little discolorations and bruising and veininess.
Quoted for truth.
I can't stand bare legs. And fortunately, I have a wife who understands that. :)
It's a solution that addresses two potential problems: cool workplaces and women... feminine individuals in skirts. Perhaps three: men... masculine individuals in kilts. Shorts, too?
I'm reminded of the GoDaddy ad: age is just an illusion, and the corollary: beauty is in the eye of the beholder. That said, age is a measure with progressive coherence, and diversity or color judgment, in this case aesthetics, "beauty", is an integral and normally distributed aspect of our perception. For the lady on the right, the stockings are optional, to her left, probably not.
Okay, so nobody sees Hillary Clinton's face (perhaps wearing a pillbox hat or turban) above SHS's right knee?
To see Hillary's face you have to look higher up.
No no no no no no no! Late to this post due to my west-coast, late riser lifestyle. I sweat at the drop of a hat - and that's just in the northern US. I've never been in REAL tropical type heat/humidity and don't ever plan on seeking it out. I sweat so much so I am blinded by salty sweat in my eyes very easily. When I was a competitive lifter I could sweat off as much as 4 lbs in 30 minutes if needed.
No. No. No. Just NO! Let me echo what others have said: you may work in air conditioning but you still have to deal with the wet heat getting to and fro. Which means you may enter an air conditioned space...already wet. Hot - freezing wet cold - HOT - freezing wet cold. UGH.
There is no persuading me from the view that nylons are the Work of the Devil in hot climates. Pondering this, you'd think that fabric scientists/engineers would have come up with a decent, breathable solution by now. We can put humans on the moon but we can't develop nylon pantyhose that breathe a bit.
My choices in summer are long skirts/dresses well blow the knee or lightweight pants. Just enough ankle to sport an ankle bracelet.
Funny how body shaming Huckabee Sanders is OK because that’s what it takes to get rid of Trump who is unfit because he speaks of women deplorably. I am talking about gaffy.
The notion seems connected to "harem pants."
I saw 80's style harem pants on the street yesterday. Woman going back to the office. Once the crappy high waisted jeans came back I knew it was only a matter of time before the harem pants. Nobody looks good in harem pants. Not even Hammer. Nobody.
Someone like Ivanka Trump has fantastic looking legs and imo she's not wearing nylons most of the time. She has amazing clothing and looks fabulous and highly professional. She really doesn't get any credit for the high style she brings to the White House. Amal Clooney is another celeb who has great legs and obviously goes without nylons and dresses fabulously and professionally. Being wealthy has its benefits. If you are being chauffeured from one elegant place to another I doubt your feet get sweaty. Or maybe a little foot spray mitigates any issues since your wear your shoes so infrequently.
I guess I've adapted to the naked leg style. Any young woman who is in great shape and has great skin looks fine without nylons. If a woman's legs look great why go through the ridiculous hassle and expense of covering them with a sheer covering?
However if you don't have great legs, great wealth, etc., better to discover what looks good on you and feel good about it. ALP has the right idea.
"so nobody sees Hillary Clinton's face"
I looked for a long time, and... I think I see it, looking off to the right, with a laughing or cackling expression – is that it?
"Or maybe a little foot spray mitigates any issues since your wear your shoes so infrequently."
Like the rented shoes at the bowling alley?
I work at the Forest Service. We have a trainee from a different career field coming in as a Grants and Agreement Specialist. She wears denim shorts, t-shirts and tank tops, flip flops, etc. I'm not going to say anything - that is a good way to have an EEO complaint filed against me.
"Funny how body shaming Huckabee Sanders is OK"
I thought this all started when his $145k p.a. secretary revealed that POTUS body shames one of his daughters.
We women should be the 'deciders' about what to wear and what not to wear. After all, men aren't listening to some of us who think the 'suit and [phallic] tie' has run its course. And men still wear shorts in spite of Alhouse's remonstrations.
I'm not going to say anything - that is a good way to have an EEO complaint filed against me.
That's what I'm saying. It is YOUR fault when some woman wears something that is sexually provocative and is in its own way sexual harassment.
"Angle-Dyne, Samurai Buzzard said...
"[D]emanding the 'freedom' to 'be comfortable and look crappy' anywhere at any time one pleases can be seen as a spoiled child's lack of respect for other human beings . . . ."
Sorry, ADSB, normally I enjoy (and respect) your comments. But it's the height of narcissism to think that another person should dress so as to earn your respect. And it's collectivism to think they should dress so as to earn the respect of others.
Aha! Our hostess has outed herself as a hosiery snob.
I buy "slightly imperfect" L'Eggs through their online outlet, and I swear by them.
OpenID: Sorry, ADSB, normally I enjoy (and respect) your comments. But it's the height of narcissism to think that another person should dress so as to earn your respect. And it's collectivism to think they should dress so as to earn the respect of others.
First she doesn't want to look at slobs and refrains from looking like a slob herself. Next thing you know she's pushing five year plans.
Nobody looks good in harem pants. Not even Hammer. Nobody.
Barbara Eden pulled it off but she paired it with a bare midriff.
"Like the rented shoes at the bowling alley?" LOL No, those shoes get worn by lots of other people, frequently.
A fashionista on the other hand has a closet of her own designer shoes which she uses sparingly. If she has a favorite style she would have multiple pairs of the same shoe.
But speaking of bare legs -- I was thinking that socially we've gotten used to seeing women's bare arms so seeing bare legs is a natural progression.
I looked for a long time, and... I think I see it, looking off to the right, with a laughing or cackling expression – is that it?
Yes! With the buck-tooth, cheeky smile off to the right.
The point is, they are bare legs. Not professional. I also think bear arms in the workplace, including on news readers, is unprofessional. For men or women.
You'd think a new kind of hose could be developed to address the problems with pantyhose.
But ... Michele Obama had great arms and remember how people swooned over her official photo?
"Who puts dirty nylons back on?! You wash them in the sink with a bar of soap, rinse them and hang them to dry in the bathroom."
I put mine in a mesh garment bag and washed them in the washing machine with my other clothes. Then I hung them to dry in the bathroom. When I lived with other young women, the bathroom was permanently festooned with drying pantyhose.
Bigger women can have great legs. I know one. But Sarah Sanders isn't one. Reminds me of me. That's why I stay below the knee.
I've got five sisters, I made a small fortune doing graphics on L'Eggs my junior and senior high school years.
The sixties were the high light of American attire, then 1968 happened and Americans started dressing like refugees. Then they discovered polyester and completely forgot about tropical weight wool and cotton.
Most chase fashion, like greyhounds chasing a fake rabbit they never catch. Find a tasteful personal style, in the long run it's cheaper, you buy less of it.
Who puts dirty nylons back on?!
Anybody who goes to the gym after work, sweats, showers, and then re-dresses to go out for dinner.
As someone who wore stockings everyday in an office, I was disdainful when women started to go bare legged. Then I realized that made me officially a fuddy-duddy. Knowing the summer humidity in The District, I applaud this 20 year old new way.
I saw Amy Klobuchar in a dress and no hose. Looked unpresidential.
Selfishly, I wish that stockings would make a comeback. I used to have killer legs and had to hide them at work with pantyhose and conservative length suits with skirts. About 10 or so years ago, the young attorneys in my office began wearing shorter skirts and no hose (even though the boss didn't really like it.) Meanwhile my pale legs no longer have the smooth unblemished skin that I think is necessary to pull off the no-hose look and I switched to wearing only trousered suits to hide my legs. Also, I've never ever been able to wear shoes with no socks or hose, unless they are barely-there sandals because of sweat and blisters. So yeah, if wearing hose was ok again I could try wearing skirts.
I notice that Elizabeth Warren usually wears a scoop neck black top, black slacks and a solid color fitted jacket. That's her look, would that be presidential/professional?
Ralph,
RE: SBC. In our household it is known as 'Swamp Ass'.
I always preferred Hanes to L'Eggs. Smoother texture and better colors.
A trio down memory lane:
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/293367363205234289/
" revealed that POTUS body shames one of his daughters.”
Another lie. What has Trump ever said or done to his daughter to body shame her? You are doing the body shaming here. And likely that Never Trumper mole who made an inference about Trump’s behavior that may or may not be true, IDK, but I do know that it’s the left beating up his daughter as collateral damage now to score points against him, same as they beat up Huckabee Sanders, always choosing the most unflattering pictures of her, for one example, for news stories.
You don’t show many signs of an incisive intellect readering. You just repeat what you read unexamined. Like that guy R/V who empties wastebaskets in faculty lounges someplace.
Bitches 'N' Hose-
thigh-high's with the seam up the back.
or the Asian Over-the-Knee stockings.
these look good on women, too!
I saw Amy Klobuchar in a dress and no hose. Looked unpresidential.
Yes, but her salad was perfect.
But what about the lettuce in her hair?
A woman once asked me to pick up a pair of pantyhose from the supermarket for her. When I gave them to her, she said it was exactly the selection she would have made. It remains the most inexplicable correct decision I've ever made.
Nylons... preferably with black back seams ala Betty Page? Yes!
And some hot shoes with open toes too!
Well for god's sake, as a woman I certainly want you all to find every part of me pleasing and am ever so keen to use all devices available to hide my imperfections. So thanks for your opinions and tips, Ann et al.
Worked in a fairly low level county technical job (mapping) for 28 years. Dealt with the public on a daily basis. Everyone from a certified gold paint huffer to State Supreme Court Justice. Could have gotten away with a colored T. Wore a tie most every day. Show a little respect for your customers.
And get collars that fit.
I say
**Down With Patriarchy**
!!Unhose The Founding Fathers!!
I'm glad Althouse brought up this puzzle, which has been plaguing me ever since hose went out of fashion. I think men might be surprised to learn how much space the question of whether or not to wear nylons can take up in a woman's brain -- or at least, in the brain of a woman of a certain age. My legs are just fine as far as shape goes, but the skin isn't quite what it used to be. I get bored with pants, pants, pants and I love wearing skirts, especially in hot weather. But I work in a courthouse, in a professional role, and though plenty of women who are younger than I am seem to disagree with me, I just don't think bare knees should be on display. These days, pantyhose are only for fuddy-duddies and they're too hot to wear outdoors in the summer anyway. But bare legs are freezing in air conditioning! What to do??
My solution is that in the summer, I wear mostly lightweight pants and longer skirts -- midis and maybe some maxis -- that flow breezily around my lower legs and don't show much more than my ankles. When fall comes, I happily break out my shorter skirts and wear them with dark tights that makes me feel dressed. For really cold weather, I have some tights with sweater patterns, such as cable knits, that are thick and warm but still shapely and pretty. It works out. I do miss the freedom of bare legs in a short skirt on a warm day, though.
As for bare feet in closed shoes, my daughter told me about these no-show socks, which really do not show and make it possible to wear flats or low heels to work all summer long without messing around with knee highs (ugh) or bare feet in sticky shoes (double ugh) --and yes, I know I should make it into a clickable url but it's late and I can't be bothered -- https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06XWZVQ6V/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
*tights MAKE me feel dressed, not makes
Tights make you tight?
I hope that's a Portal link.
Why do we have pants, trousers, tights, and undies but singular shirt and blouse?
Am presuming that Elizabeth II is-- in spite of the 'low-key lifestyle and pared-back clothing'-- wearing hose in the photograph?
And I don't believe that the 'Americans' failed to recognize the Queen, either. But the DM will make its little jokes.
Pantyhose nylons read like a chastity belt.
I'm a little late to the party (went to a NO HURRICANE PARTY last night) but I am all in with the Hostess on this one. Love me some nylons. Sadly, haven't seen a woman in Florida wear some in years.
THEOLDMAN
I remember being sent to the store by one or two female acquaintances to get those egg containers of hose.
A woman does look more professional in my opinion in stockings, although I also think most women look more professional when their choice of attire covers at least halfway down from the knees to the ankles.
Did the nylon thing for years (LOL DBQ and Bleach Bit ,...I wear my sunglasses at night with my Mabeline,
Well, I love to wear mens jockstrap underwear. I found them comfortable and have a sexy look.Men’s jockstraps consist of wide elastic waistbands which provide ultimate support and upliftment to your genitalia. I purchased from be-brief. They have a huge collection of mens jockstrap underwear.
Ann Althouse said...
"What's the problem? What would hose solve?"
The fact that you don't know is a testament to the greatness of nylons.
This answer would be marked down as it fails to answer the question.
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