August 19, 2019

At the Monday Night Cafe...

... keep the conversation going.

161 comments:

narciso said...

An insight into chimese strategy:

https://mobile.twitter.com/stick631/status/1163540224208769025

gadfly said...

NBC’s Democratic presidential debate:

Holt: Secretary Castro, this one is for you. All of you on stage support a woman’s right to an abortion. You all support some version of a government health-care option. Would your plan cover abortion, Mr. Secretary?
Castro: I absolutely would cover the right to have an abortion.

Julián Castro. . . is announcing an ambitious animal welfare plan . . . as part of his presidential campaign. The plan . . . calls for ending the euthanization of domestic dogs and cats in shelters . . .

Sick!! What human being would favor killing babies while making euthanization of dogs and cats illegal?

J. Farmer said...

One of the defining characteristics of Americans, going back at least to the age of de Tocqueville, was optimism. Personally, I could not imagine being a conservative optimist. It's an oxymoron as far as I'm concerned. America is on the decline and there is likely nothing that's going to seriously alter this course. America is doomed. You best council your children to make long-term plans for emigration now. Australia may be the last Anglophone frontier, or else they're probably going to have to plan for somewhere in East Asia. It's a high functioning society that, unlike Europe, the US, and Canada, hasn't been poisoned by white guilt into thinking their salvation rests in throwing open the doors of their country to third world hordes.

J. Farmer said...

Sick!! What human being would favor killing babies while making euthanization of dogs and cats illegal?

I don't mean to discount the moral importance of abortion, but let me draw an analogy. You're on the Titanic heading for the iceberg, and you're complaining about what you're being served for dinner.

narciso said...

Australia has a) strong immigration protocols 2) the left has made inroads through education, largely through playing the aboriginal guilt card

Chuck said...

Well it is now two months since the Trump interview with George Stephanopoulos in which Trump said that there would be an announcement of a health care plan proposal “in two months. Maybe less.”

There’s no plan. No proposal.

Just the same shameless lying bullshit as in most Trump interviews.

narciso said...

3) you dont have a problem with single payer unless its only for caucasians, well you know that wont work out.

J. Farmer said...

Australia has a) strong immigration protocols 2) the left has made inroads through education, largely through playing the aboriginal guilt card

Completely agree. Here's a taste of what that means:

“Scientists can potentially damage the standing of the elders, or the right to land claims, should our findings contradict the oral traditions.”

-Indigenous arrival has no date, dons told

In other words, scientific facts must take a backseat to Aboriginal folk myths. After all, we wouldn't want to hurt anyone's feelings.

J. Farmer said...

@Chuck:

Healthcare is an important issue, but like every other issue, it is secondary to national self-immolation. If you don't solve that problem, there is no point in solving the others.

Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...

Top. Men.

Medical Examiner’s Office That Conducted Suspicious Epstein Autopsy Caught Harvesting Organs, Body Parts

https://truepundit.com/medical-examiners-office-that-conducted-suspicious-epstein-autopsy-caught-harvesting-organs-body-parts/

Assisted Suicide Avoidance – John Brennan Intel Asset Joseph Mifsud “Gave Audio Tape Deposition Before Going Into Hiding”… per CTH

Michael K said...

Australia may be the last Anglophone frontier, or else they're probably going to have to plan for somewhere in East Asia.

Read Catallaxy files. Australia has the same problems.

Just how bad has the CSIRO become? Once upon a time, it was involved in producing high quality applied research. Those days are truly gone. Just check out the Australian National Outlook 2019 document if you are in doubt.

But I received this zinger this morning from its media department – lots of communications graduates employed there, no doubt – and many groans emanated from our house.

But it’s science-based, according to the utter guff in the press release. That’s right, a science-driven approach to tackle declining trust in corporations. Oh please.

The one organisation that the public should no longer trust is the CSIRO itself.

Check it out.

Australia’s national science agency, CSIRO, has developed and commercialised a new science-driven approach to tackle declining trust in corporations, enabling companies to better manage their social licence to operate, starting with mining and agriculture.

New business Voconiq was launched to scale up CSIRO’s community insights service, formerly called Reflexivity. It captures real-time insights into community sentiment across time and locations, and aims to help industries and communities build greater trust and mutually-beneficial outcomes.

A social licence to operate continues to be a top business risk facing industry today, as highlighted in CSIRO’s recent Australian National Outlook 2019 report.


They have no Trump. Not even a Boris.

Michael K said...

Just the same shameless lying bullshit as in most Trump interviews.

Would you please go away ? If you want an education (which I doubt) you could read this.

narciso said...

Well morrison is an improvement over turnbull sky dragon worshiper, but not better than tony abbott, the last two were not really concerned with self defense.

Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...

one burger...and a large order of lies

Ghislaine Maxwell STAGED In-N-Out photo in Los Angeles with her close friend and attorney, using confidante's dog Dexter in the snapshot

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7372877/Ghislaine-Maxwell-STAGED-photo-N-close-friend-attorney.html

J. Farmer said...

@Michael K:

I am inclined to agree that Australia has similar problems to the rest of the Anglosohere, but that’s not the example I would’ve chosen. The problems, I think, are much more fundamental. Unequal people cannot share a common political space that is rooted in egalitarianism.

narciso said...

Well maxwell is the scion of a press baron, of more left wing sympathies who leveraged his acqusitions on top of pension funds, which collapsed leading to his demise.

narciso said...

Also there is a fair amount of chinese influence at the corporate level in australian politics, why i thought that first link was significant

J. Farmer said...

Australia is going to have to accommodate itself to the rising influence of China. There really isn't much of an alternative. What could 19th century Britain due in response to the increasing industrialization of the US, Germany, and Japan?

Danno said...

Chuck, have you read John Goodman's article below?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/johngoodman/2019/08/13/we-already-know-what-the-trump-health-plan-is/#7657a99a65e5

Don't sweat a legislative proposal that has zero chance of passing, much less being seriously debated.

narciso said...

The largest institution bar none is the nationa ll health service, to the degree there was a parn to it in the 2012 olympics

narciso said...

The left wants to deligimate the founding by tying it to slavery, much the settling of australia can be done to the hamdling of the aborigines, dont think yesterdays is a one off this is a jumping point for lesson plans to be incorporated through the rubric of common core.

Unknown said...

Australia is going to have to accommodate itself to the rising influence of China. There really isn't much of an alternative.

I agree there is probably nothing Australia can do to affect matters, but I don't think it is inevitable that China continues on its current course. I think it may well crash hard and the next time it reorganizes itself may be more like a normal country.

Danno said...

J. Farmer- I think rather than fleeing the U.S., a better alternative would be to have the red states become sanctuary states that ignore any new idiotic federal mandates. These states would keep using petroleum, natural gas and nuclear power, lightly regulate industry, and maintain the agriculture that is needed. Most of our military fighting forces appear to come from these parts of the country. Form state militias for states in this category.

You might not even need to formally secede. We would just start playing the sanctuary game the libtards are using with rules they don't like.

D 2 said...

I disagree with Farmer in thinking that there is something in someone's DNA that makes them impossible to understand the ideas of common law and freedom of speech.

Why? Well, there were a good many Englishmen who once thought the Highlander was beyond hope, captured in his "tribal ways". Huguenots families fled to London so they could hold their beliefs, regardless if they spoke the language. Over time, both those disparate groups of Macdonalds & Maillets became not too different than the Smiths.

More than the famous Mandate of Heaven in the east, -perhaps seen as necessary to keep the rice irrigated - there will be bells of liberty ringing somewhere. If nowhere else, usually somewhere out on the edge of town.

The secret's out. You can't burn all the history books or ban all the internet chat rooms or keep tabs on the talk at every coffeehouse. The centre for freedom may move on to Seoul, or Santiago, but it won't go out.

For when Adam delved and Eve span, who then was a gentleman?

traditionalguy said...

Seeing the last few days posts reminded me how blessed we are to have the opportunity to connect with The Althouse Mind. Althouse Blog is a continual party of meeting new and interesting people that would never have happened for me any other way. She has Dragon Energy of her own unique type. I love her.

narciso said...

Well its kind of a dinner party that sometimes goes along for a spell:
https://reason.com/2018/07/19/slavery-did-not-make-america-r/?amp&__twitter_impression=true&fbclid=IwAR0BSAp_6fc_1zIM_gD12cO2B4eneTIduEFfXkK7d-ozPZXA7EJViMvpBWo

J. Farmer said...

@Unknown:

I agree there is probably nothing Australia can do to affect matters, but I don't think it is inevitable that China continues on its current course. I think it may well crash hard and the next time it reorganizes itself may be more like a normal country.

I agree that China faces a number of internal problems, but I really don't know what "normal country" is supposed to mean in that context.

Drago said...

LLR Chuck is beginning to lose it completely which is very understandable given the utter collapse of the Biden and Kamala campaigns and Warrens pathetic performances.

J. Farmer said...

@D2:

I disagree with Farmer in thinking that there is something in someone's DNA that makes them impossible to understand the ideas of common law and freedom of speech.

Where precisely did I say that? But it is worth pointing out that the Australian aborigines likely have among the lowest average IQs of any ethnic group yet studied. If you think that's conducive to living in an advanced western society, then we do have serious disagreements. There are already efforts underway to discourage scientists from discussing the anthropological evidence regarding the introduction of aboriginal populations into Australia since it contradicts their mythology that they have been omnipresent on the continent. Never mind the traditional measures (e.g. educational attainment, income, standard of living, etc.).

wildswan said...

C'mon guys. Why so sad? It's always worst just before people realize they must fight. The ones that realize early have to wait and not quit while the others "turn their heads and pretend they just don't see." After Lincoln was inaugurated President Buchanan and the American people did nothing while the South seized forts and arsenals. Nothing, nothing. Then came Fort Sumter and giving away forts ended. We aren't going to have a civil war; it isn't that bad; but think how true patriots felt as they watched the Union seemingly dissolving. Think how Churchill felt in the Thirties. We don't have to despair and emigrate. We only have to wait for others to catch up and be determined to do our part when the time comes. Remember the Glorious Election Night of 2016. Remember watching Mueller talking at the hearing and realizing the whole collusion thing was over. You think true culture will just dry up and blow away? No, they'll be crawling toward it as the only oasis in a horrible desert - soon and very soon.

Drago said...

My favorite part of the now clear fissure between LLR Chuck's "magnificent" obama and LLR Chuck's much praised Biden is the non-stop gaffes, stab in the back comments and Biden's cluelessness about it all.

Talk about "magnificent", eh Chuck?

LOLOLOL

Sebastian said...

Just in case Althouse still has any respect for "journalists," Hinderaker at Powerline has a good take-down of the latest prog outrage in the WaPo: THE WASHINGTON POST LIES ABOUT A CONSERVATIVE JOURNALIST. Caps are his.

J. Farmer said...

@Danno:

These states would keep using petroleum, natural gas and nuclear power, lightly regulate industry, and maintain the agriculture that is needed.

Personally, I think that's naive in the extreme. Given the supremacy clause and who we can expect to dominate the federal government and the courts, none of that will amount to a hill of beans.

You might not even need to formally secede. We would just start playing the sanctuary game the libtards are using with rules they don't like.

One of my more idiosyncratic positions is that the US needs to be broken up into smaller constituent parts with a federal government more akin to the Articles of Confederation. Had I been alive at the time of the Constitutional debates, I imagine I would have been a firm antifederalist.

Drago said...

wildswan: "C'mon guys. Why so sad? It's always worst just before people realize they must fight."

I believe Farmer would frame it as it's always darkest before it turns completely black.

gadfly said...

J Farmer: I don't mean to discount the moral importance of abortion, but let me draw an analogy. You're on the Titanic heading for the iceberg, and you're complaining about what you're being served for dinner.

So you think that the sinking of the Titanic was unstoppable but ending the death count of unborns after 61,000,000 legalized abortions since Roe v Wade is not a worthwhile endeavor? As for unwanted pregnancies - the reality is that a careless biological act is performed by willing sexual partners.

As for cats, I feed and shelter about 15 fixed Community Cats on my property - but I know that the local animal shelter can only hold so many feral and abandoned animals. Castro should leave the wonderful animal shelter organizations alone.

J. Farmer said...

@wildswan:

Remember the Glorious Election Night of 2016. Remember watching Mueller talking at the hearing and realizing the whole collusion thing was over. You think true culture will just dry up and blow away? No, they'll be crawling toward it as the only oasis in a horrible desert - soon and very soon.

That's a perfect example of celebrating tactical victories while losing the war. The examples you brought up are not comparable to the troubles we face. Neither Lincoln nor Churchill faced the prospects of the constituent populations of their countries being replaced by foreigners. As the saying goes, "Past performance is not indicative of future results." Once demographics do their work on Texas and Florida, conservatives will be pretty much finished at the national level. Take a look at the politics of Latin America. That is the future staring you in the face.

J. Farmer said...

@gadfly:

So you think that the sinking of the Titanic was unstoppable but ending the death count of unborns after 61,000,000 legalized abortions since Roe v Wade is not a worthwhile endeavor?

No, I think that when your house is burning down you don't worry about remodeling the kitchen. If demographics continue the way they are, the pro-choice movement is DOA. Go for an immigration restrictionist above all else, even if he or she is pro-choice. Every issue is secondary to national suicide.

Michael K said...

Unequal people cannot share a common political space that is rooted in egalitarianism.

I think if outcomes are not pre-determined, it can work. 20 years ago Willie Brown tried to pass a law that UC had to have equal graduation rates for blacks and whites. In those days, California was sane and it went nowhere.

Zimbabwe should be an object lesson for blacks but it may take another in South Africa. The white left has to know better but they probably think they can still take over when anarchy appears.

mockturtle said...

The Mongol hordes changed a few cultures.

Danno said...

Farmer "Personally, I think that's naive in the extreme. Given the supremacy clause and who we can expect to dominate the federal government and the courts, none of that will amount to a hill of beans."

Who will be enforcing these laws if you have mass noncompliance? The Feds can't even force the current sanctuary states/cities to obey the law. Way less naive than dreaming of Australia. Do you think the Armed Forces will go to war against U.S. citizen civilians?

J. Farmer said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
J. Farmer said...

@Drago:

I believe Farmer would frame it as it's always darkest before it turns completely black.

If you see signs of optimism on the horizon, by all means share them. What do you think is going to be done to stop the dispossession of European-Americans from the civilization they built?

D 2 said...

Perhaps I read too much into the initial "third world hordes" comment. The word horde made me think of the English v Scot thing.

I understand the issue with the lack of control re pace and volume of immigration, but I would still think those O'Reillys might make good neighbours in time.

J. Farmer said...

@Danno:

Who will be enforcing these laws if you have mass noncompliance? The Feds can't even force the current sanctuary states/cities to obey the law.

The Feds cannot do this because there is massive oppositionism from the other side. What do you think "the feds" will look like when the other side is a supermajority? Can you think of an example where a native population was replaced by a foreign one and the consequences were benign?

J. Farmer said...

@D2:

I understand the issue with the lack of control re pace and volume of immigration, but I would still think those O'Reillys might make good neighbours in time.

The fact that people were once wrong about the abilities of Scots, Irish, and Italians to assimilate (and I think even that is debatable) does not mean that the same warnings about sub-Saharan Africans, Latin Americans, and Middle Easterners must also be wrong.

mockturtle said...

It wouldn't be so bad if we were overtaken by a more powerful army but to be dispossessed of our land by weaker folk is adding insult to injury.

Gahrie said...

Unequal people cannot share a common political space that is rooted in egalitarianism.

It really depends on your definition of "equal" and "egalitarianism". If "equal" means possessing equal human rights and dignity, and not necessarily equal capabilities, and "egalitarianism" means equal treatment under the law and equal opportunity, but not equal outcomes...then perhaps something can be worked out.

My biggest worry is that the Left is going to convince White people that being White matters, and that Brown and Black people are threats to White people. It could lead to Armenian genocide type behavior. And that potential extends across the Anglosphere. Frankly, I am surprised the British blokes haven't reacted more violently already.

wildswan said...

The Fourth Communist International designated the African-Americans as the leading proletariat group and this 1619 project is the same thing. It's socialism trying to use the black experience as cover for bringing in socialism. First the Green New Deal was going to do that but somehow AOC has been neutralized. She's never been the same since her little trip with Nancy Pelosi. Now, 1619 is going to talk about injustice but the action planned will still be to take away cars and air conditioning and warm houses and steaks and barbecuing - do you really think that no blacks have those things? Good Lord, they just got a good grip on them. And why are the Hispanics coming across the borders after crossing deserts after mortgaging all they have? - it's to get those things. And do you think Elizabeth Warren can persuade the blacks who have stuff to give it up or the Hispanics to stop saving to get it? And who's going to tell poor blacks to their faces that there's 57 genders and no Bible? This isn't Rev. Martin Luther King saying "we'll get you the vote" or "we'll make you literate." This is Elizabeth Warren saying: "we'll take your money in taxes and make your boy a girl and leave you sick and freezing in the hungry dark and call it progress, if you elect me." Or there's Trump: "Keep America Great."

Gahrie said...

Can you think of an example where a native population was replaced by a foreign one and the consequences were benign?

I am amazed at the open hostility of immigrant Hispanics towards Whites, White culture and American institutions. It is almost like they are daring the gringos to do something about it.

narciso said...

That is invasion by immigration, one might call it la reconquista or you could call it al hijra, abortion and birth control was the advanced guard so there would be a demand for a massive third world labor pool, recall griswold was cintiguos with the immigration act.

J. Farmer said...

@Gahrie:

I am amazed at the open hostility of immigrant Hispanics towards Whites, White culture and American institutions. It is almost like they are daring the gringos to do something about it.

Many Hispanics consider the southwestern US to have been stolen from them in the Mexican-American War, and they believe they are taking it back. And so far it looks like they're succeeding.

narciso said...

Look at the balance in the demographic ages, the current native born are older than the next two generation as such. The imbalance is even more pronounced in europe.

Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...

Barr and Durham are looking in to Mifsud and DOJ links to Global Center- a US based terrorism think-tank.
Global Center was working under the Obama WH. LCILP and Link Campus were acting as venues for them to train MENA intelligence officials in Europe.
Mifsud aka Joseph Di Gabriele was sent FBI to train at Link,
so the "mysterious russian professor" bit is getting old.

James K said...

The fact that people were once wrong about the abilities of Scots, Irish, and Italians to assimilate (and I think even that is debatable)

An important difference is that 100 years ago natives universally viewed assimilation as a positive value. Immigrants arriving here essentially had to sink or swim, aside from religious or ethnic organizations that would help them get settled. Now we have bilingual education, and a welfare state that supports disassimilation.

narciso said...

Where did this notion come from thr ford rockefeller and carnegie foundation seeding awareness of ethnic identity.

J. Farmer said...

@Gahrie:

It really depends on your definition of "equal" and "egalitarianism". If "equal" means possessing equal human rights and dignity, and not necessarily equal capabilities, and "egalitarianism" means equal treatment under the law and equal opportunity, but not equal outcomes...then perhaps something can be worked out.

I agree, but I think that is naive given human nature. We can expect blacks and Hispanics to continue to lag behind whites and Asians on most social measures. Their political representatives will not allow them to accept that this is a result of lower average ability and so there will be ever increasing calls for something to be done.

walter said...

Michael K,
Chuck has established his price for moderation.

J Farmer,
Embrace the newly fashionable phrase "walk and chew gum at the same time"

J. Farmer said...

Where did this notion come from thr ford rockefeller and carnegie foundation seeding awareness of ethnic identity.

I think that is very short-sighted. Ethnic identity and ethnic conflict long predate these institutions. You don't need to seed awareness to the fact that people speak different languages and have different values and customs. The only thing we have seen so far keep ethnic tensions at bay is very authoritarian central governments (e.g. Tito's Yugoslavia).

D 2 said...

(Farmer at 11.11)
That is a fair point. What was true with X isn't necessary true with Y.

I remember reading a book for history class (in the 80s) which identified where the 2nd generation of East Asians was less prepared than the 1st generation who had come over in the 60s to take to London's ways. The book read like it was all going to come apart the next day. This was before Maggie's re election.

Keep fighting Farmer. Don't run. You had me thinking a few times when you stood alone on a few of the NK posts, outlining your worldview like an old lonesome cowboy with a rusty gun fighting off whatever was out there in the shadows.

J. Farmer said...

@walter:

Embrace the newly fashionable phrase "walk and chew gum at the same time"

I know the phrase, but I have no idea what it has to do with anything I've said. Please elaborate.

J. Farmer said...

@D2:

Keep fighting Farmer. Don't run. You had me thinking a few times when you stood alone on a few of the NK posts, outlining your worldview like an old lonesome cowboy with a rusty gun fighting off whatever was out there in the shadows.

Ha. I appreciate the analogy, especially considering my father's first job after leaving home at age 16 was a cowboy on a cattle ranch. But also, you gotta know when to hold em and when to fold em. I'm reminded of a W.C. Fields quote: "If at first you don't succeed, try try again. Then quit. No use being a damn fool about it."

narciso said...

Yes but without the attacks on the key institurions that were key to assimilation like the churches the schools the family, what were left with is force to determine power arrangements

narciso said...

Where things get problematic:
https://www.scmp.com/economy/china-economy/article/3023251/china-warned-it-shouldnt-pin-its-hopes-russian-soybeans?fbclid=IwAR2UUp2kNCDxPACtxpKYaO8heWmrZPJDTDOBCVeXDU6J2495HdsJku6AeUk

wildswan said...

J Farmer said
"Once demographics do their work on Texas and Florida, conservatives will be pretty much finished at the national level."

I don't think so. I think the danger is whites cheating in novel ways in the suburbs and stealing votes in standard ways in the cities on behalf of the Dems, rather than a Hispanic wave. The Hispanics have a Euro-American background anyway. La Raza does not speak for Hispanics. In real life Hispanics are all saving to buy houses or a business. A guy not working on that can't get married. The businesses are all disregarding laws about hours of work, social security payments, hiring without regard to race or sex. And many Hispanics are illegals. This all adds up to Hispanics have a Republican side and a Democrat side. Don't forget more Hispanics voted for Trump in 2016 than voted for Romney in 2012 and Trump hasn't let his voters down.

narciso said...

But youre right, wildswan, the left used african americans as their subject proletariat, the leadership didnt care about the justice claims anymore than lenin did about chechen or ukrainian national demands

J. Farmer said...

@wildswan:

What we call Hispanics are largely a derivative of three racial groups: Iberians, indigenous Americans, and sub-Saharan Africans. Once the country is majority Hispanic, we will look much more like Latin America than we do North America. Do you honestly believe that once northern European protestants are replaced by Latin Catholics, there will not be a significant change in the culture of America? A culture is merely an amalgamation of the people in that culture. When you change the people, you will change the culture.

narciso said...

Well yes but the white democrats have largely ceded any opposition to immigration,

wildswan said...

I'm not saying, J Farmer, that the culture isn't being taken away in the universities. I'm saying it's being done by our own. And if you look at Youtubes teaching subjects like Anglo-Saxon and other forms of literature (especially those connected with CS Lewis and Tolkien but also many others) you can see that thousands are learning online at a college level what the universities with their illiterate feminist commissar-administrators no longer teach. But this is unanointed knowledge and Our Betters are ignoring the phenomenon. And perhaps that makes the learning of this "bad" knowledge more interesting.

J. Farmer said...

I'm not saying, J Farmer, that the culture isn't being taken away in the universities. I'm saying it's being done by our own.

We don't disagree on this point. As I wrote on the Pepe thread: "More confirmation that the movement that calls itself anti-racist is primarily just anti-white. And it’s mostly pushed by masochistic whites."

J. Farmer said...

p.s. As for the fact that "thousands are learning online at a college level," with each passing year, those people will represent an ever smaller sliver of the American pie.

narciso said...

Youre not going to get anywhere focusing solely on race, get that out of your mind, thats the only way the left understands objections to its policies to deem it illegitimate.

narciso said...

Yes fewer and fewer, i guess all ametican media is atrocious all about grievance narratives, lgbt acceptance of atimulants rampant promiscuity,

J. Farmer said...

@narciso:

Youre not going to get anywhere focusing solely on race, get that out of your mind, thats the only way the left understands objections to its policies to deem it illegitimate.

Race is one of the most salient factors, because race is a reflection of biological differences among human populations. The American continent is a collision of three distinc racial groups: Europeans, native Americans, and Africans, and the results have largely been conflict and discord. Look at some of the highest standard of living places in the world (e.g. northwestern Eurasia and Northeastern Eurasia). They are largely racially homogeneous. Here is a map based on the Human Development Index. Here is a map of ethnic diversity. Draw your own conclusions.

narciso said...

This is more diatressing,



https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2019/08/19/multinational-business-roundtable-now-claims-social-responsibility-more-important-than-profit/?fbclid=IwAR0DNKEhoqo_VTvOCKAUWhB--Ac_S-JN5XzFUV3bY0h8EGBq8FxzeZM9ZYk

wildswan said...

"J Farmer said:
Do you honestly believe that once northern European protestants are replaced by Latin Catholics, there will not be a significant change in the culture of America?"

I'm spending a lot of time studying the New England Protestant culture which was anti-Catholic up till the 1850's. The Irish-Catholics could not vote in New Hampshire until almost the Civil War. We were loathed. It was said that we could not carry on a democracy because we were authoritarians due to supporting the Pope. (And meanwhile the Pope tended to think the Irish-American Catholics were not good Catholics because we believed in elections for civil government but never mind that.) I think you have to see that a form of government, democracy, which emerged from English Protestant history and Greek history can be attractive to Irish-Catholics who were outcasts in that history and yet shared the vision. For instance, during the civil War the Irish mill-hands in England without work died of hunger without rioting and demanding that the English Navy break the Northern blockade and let Confederate cotton through for the mills. They knew what the Civil War was about although they were not northern protestants or even Americans. So I don't have that dark vision of social decay caused by Catholicism, Latino or Irish. And anyhow a lot of the Hispanics here are evangelical Protestants.

wildswan said...

J. Farmer said...
p.s. As for the fact that "thousands are learning online at a college level," with each passing year, those people will represent an ever smaller sliver of the American pie.

I think it's a fact that the numbers learning this way are increasing each year.

J. Farmer said...

This is more diatressing,

This is where you and I differ sharply. That is not more distressing. That is stupid virtue signalling. If free market capitalists had their ways, the international borders that prevent the free flow of labor and capital would be obliterated. Go tell the people in places like Michigan and Pennsylvania that the immiseration of their lives is okay since it increased shareholder value. These are the same people who love building factories in China and employing cheap labor, and they hate Trump's trade war. Are they wrong? Why or why not?

J. Farmer said...

@wildswan:

I think it's a fact that the numbers learning this way are increasing each year.

And the people who don't give a shit about such things are increasing even more. Even if every single white person were "learning this way," they'll still be a minority of the total population of the country.

J. Farmer said...

@wildswan:

So I don't have that dark vision of social decay caused by Catholicism, Latino or Irish. And anyhow a lot of the Hispanics here are evangelical Protestants.

So let me ask you a question. What do you think explains the cultural, political, and economic differences between North America (i.e. USA and Canada) and Latin America (i.e. Mexico and south)?

J. Farmer said...

p.s. And we already have a model for such a thing. It's called California. How would you feel if the majority of the country resembled the politics and culture of California?

J. Farmer said...

p.p.s. And let me give you one more thought experiment. Imagine you replaced half the population of Japan with central Americans. Do you think those central Americans would adopt a Shinto lifestyle and assimilate into Japanese society or do you think they would fundamentally change what Japan was as a country?

narciso said...

It wouldnt happen, japan is not a settler state, it did take over the native population but not in the same way. You are going to win very few people thinking this way.

wildswan said...

In relation to what race explains.

Sometimes it seems to me that the Sub-Saharan Africans and American Indigenes got cut off from their cultural centers by being cut off from respectively Egypt and Mexico/ Peru. The Moslem slavers got onto the line of the Nile and after that the natural progression in Africa stopped. Similarly the fall the Aztecs and the Incas was so catastrophic that the other areas of the American indigenous culture were left without a court which was the ancient form of a university/ research center. So the incoming culture of the Europeans did not meet leaders of the American indigenous culture but just bereft remnants. Remember the Inca / Aztecs developed foods which fed the whole indigenous culture and are feeding the world - corn, potatoes, tomatoes, beans, chilies, chocolate. We know nothing of this except that it happened; and we don't know how indigenous thought-leaders would have interpreted European ideas. But we can see in Japan how a similar folk culture could take on European culture without disintegrating because its court and thought leaders stayed intact.

This is just speculation about certain long-term cultural trends but it is an explanation other than race which I'm leaning toward.

readering said...

Glazer and Moynihan published Beyond the Melting Pot in 1963. Far out, man.

J. Farmer said...

@narciso:

It wouldnt happen, japan is not a settler state, it did take over the native population but not in the same way. You are going to win very few people thinking this way.

That wasn't the point of my thought experiment. Obviously, I don't believe it would happen, given that Japanese people are not self-destructive masochists. My question was, if it did happen, what do you think would be the likely outcome? And honestly, I'm not a politician. I don't care about winning people. I am content with simply being right, and I'm fine being an obituarist for American civilization.

narciso said...


Well if you want to be chased down by a mob and killed for doing what charles murray has still not recovered from, be my guest


https://pjmedia.com/trending/aoc-aligned-climate-group-demands-media-silence-climate-deniers/?fbclid=IwAR1VkDBmVcnnmYcZDdO6mjFkU4vO4e5kzSAM12L6-SN8bV0XIyGgWrlMeRM

wildswan said...

"J. Farmer said...
p.p.s. And let me give you one more thought experiment. Imagine you replaced half the population of Japan with central Americans. Do you think those central Americans would adopt a Shinto lifestyle and assimilate into Japanese society"

Actually I think the central Americans whose culture is American tribal would find the Shinto adaptations to European culture easy to understand. And they might adapt more easily to Japan than they have to Spain.

J. Farmer said...

@wildswan:

Sometimes it seems to me that the Sub-Saharan Africans and American Indigenes got cut off from their cultural centers by being cut off from respectively Egypt and Mexico/ Peru.

How exactly is Egypt the "cultural center" of sub-Saharan Africa?

The Moslem slavers got onto the line of the Nile and after that the natural progression in Africa stopped.

The interior zone of sub-Saharan Africa was not penetrated by outsiders until the 19th century, and even then it was far behind the rest of the world in terms of development.

Similarly the fall the Aztecs and the Incas was so catastrophic that the other areas of the American indigenous culture were left without a court which was the ancient form of a university/ research center. So the incoming culture of the Europeans did not meet leaders of the American indigenous culture but just bereft remnants. Remember the Inca / Aztecs developed foods which fed the whole indigenous culture and are feeding the world - corn, potatoes, tomatoes, beans, chilies, chocolate.

European explorers, vastly outnumbered by the native populations, were nonetheless able to quickly defeat and subjugate these empires. Why do you think that was?

This is just speculation about certain long-term cultural trends but it is an explanation other than race which I'm leaning toward.

Here is a list of the top 25 countries by Human Development Index, after adjusting for inequality:

Iceland
Japan
Norway
Switzerland
Finland
Sweden
Germany
Australia
Denmark
Netherlands
Ireland
Canada
New Zealand
Slovenia
Czech Republic
Belgium
United Kingdom
Austria
Singapore
Luxembourg
Hong Kong
France
Malta
Slovakia
United States

Do you think it's just a coincidence that this list is dominated by two racial groups, northwestern and northeastern Eurasians, despite these countries having radically different histories?

narciso said...

Koreans qho are not that ethnically dissimilar are considered second class citizens in japan.

narciso said...

Without an institutional transmittal belt, e pleb nista.

J. Farmer said...

@wildswan:

Actually I think the central Americans whose culture is American tribal would find the Shinto adaptations to European culture easy to understand. And they might adapt more easily to Japan than they have to Spain.

Have you ever been to Japan? What country do you think is more European, Spain or Japan? What exactly are the "Shinto adaptations to European culture?" And central Americans would adapt more easily to Japan than to Spain despite not sharing the language, religion, dietary habits, customs, or cultural values?

J. Farmer said...

Koreans qho are not that ethnically dissimilar are considered second class citizens in japan.

How does that contradict anything I've said?

wildswan said...

If you go and look at cathedrals like the one in Santa Fe and compare it with St. Patrick's in New York you can see that Hispanic culture is a Christian European culture. Hispanics serve in the Army in the wars, they can fight for this country. I don't think we will "lose the culture" to Hispanics; I regard the atheistical illiterate socialists as the menace.

Lewis Wetzel said...

I have been widowed for almost two years now. I now have a girl friend who I like very much. She grew up in Florida, and I grew up in the Midwest. This makes for some interesting contrasts.
Today we were hanging out at the beach and she told me that when she got divorced from her first husband, her girl friend had suggested they start a house cleaning/cooking/escort business. You would pay a broad some money, and when you returned from your work day, she would have cleaned your house, and cooked you a meal, which she would eat with you. After that,things would go as they would go.
This sounds like a genious move to me. How could this not work? There are an awful lot of lonely, unmarried middle-aged men and women out there.
This could be an app.

readering said...

Japan is a settler state. They just settled earlier.

J. Farmer said...

@wildswan:

If you go and look at cathedrals like the one in Santa Fe and compare it with St. Patrick's in New York you can see that Hispanic culture is a Christian European culture. Hispanics serve in the Army in the wars, they can fight for this country. I don't think we will "lose the culture" to Hispanics; I regard the atheistical illiterate socialists as the menace.

And what area do you think is more socialist, North America or Latin America? And I'll repeat an earlier question, what explains the social, cultural, and economic differences between North America and Latin America, given that both are, according to you, "Christian European cultures?"

J. Farmer said...

p.s. Here is a world map of economic freedom. Notice anything?

wildswan said...

In central America there are groups whose culture is tribal or "Indian". The present day American Indians came from Asia fairly recently and their culture is like Asian folk culture. So that culture is more like Shinto than like a European culture, I'm saying. So those tribal groups would find the way the Japanese culture based on Shinto adapted to European culture analogous to their own experience.

Then there are central American Hispanics whose culture is Spanish like Borges. They would not like Japan but they would understand the Philippines.

Both groups are coming here and have to learn a northern European approach especially to government and the social contract. It isn't a racial problem; it's culture when you are an American because we have a universalist system.

wildswan said...

"And what area do you think is more socialist, North America or Latin America?"

And which area do you think is going toward socialism and which is going away from it?

J. Farmer said...

@wildswan:

The present day American Indians came from Asia fairly recently and their culture is like Asian folk culture. So that culture is more like Shinto than like a European culture, I'm saying.

Shintoism developed in Japan during the Yayoi period, around 500BC to 300AD. This is many thousands of years after humans entered the American continent.

narciso said...

He wanta his own cul de sac:
https://amgreatness.com/2019/08/18/cosmic-injustice/

Gahrie said...

Japan is a settler state. They just settled earlier.

If you go back far enough ...everybody is.

J. Farmer said...

And which area do you think is going toward socialism and which is going away from it?

Let me repeat a question for a third time and perhaps you'll answer it: "What explains the social, cultural, and economic differences between North America and Latin America, given that both are, according to you, 'Christian European cultures'?"

J. Farmer said...

p.s. I don't want to appear to ignore your question, "And which area do you think is going toward socialism and which is going away from it?"

First, I don't think the word "socialism" has much valence in modern times due its extreme broadness. But granting your terms, both are going towards it, while Latin America is already much further along the path.

wildswan said...

"And I'll repeat an earlier question, what explains the social, cultural, and economic differences between North America and Latin America, given that both are, according to you, "Christian European cultures?"

That's huge question and given that I'm having trouble understanding differences between Protestant and Catholic culture in my own country I can't answer it. There are historical commonplaces you find in Parkman and I accept his account of the struggle with New France and sort of assume it applies in general to New Spain. The histories were different from the start in that there were not as many settlers from Europe in either New France or Latin America. An absolute monarchy was established in Spain and in France but not in England and this affected the power of the royal governors in different areas. That is not a racial explanation.

But Parkman never really asked whether Catholics can truly join this system founded by Protestants. And I think it's kind of a good question though I disagree with your answer. It's been answered in life and was first answered by the Irish Catholics, but that answer hasn't been analyzed such that it can be seen how it applies also to Hispanics and Asians. This why I am now reading about the Puritans. I am reading Hume's History of England.

wildswan said...

"J. Farmer said...
First, I don't think the word "socialism" has much valence in modern times due its extreme broadness. But granting your terms, both are going towards it, while Latin America is already much further along the path."

I disagree. I think that Latin America went from control by an absolute monarchy to a brief period of liberalism to socialism and is now leaving socialism. I mean, do you think the Venezuelans support socialism any more? But in the US there are idiots who want to try it and think it might work as advertised. They think it will abolish injustice or at least abolish more injustice than it causes. They are wrong. They will make things worse. And that fact about socialism is my broad general explanation for present problems in Latin America. In the past down there, weak liberals succeeding a strong autocracy discredited liberalism and let in socialism. Again that isn't racial.

seo tools said...

https://www.seotoolsrack.com/tools/due-date-calculator

Narayanan said...

Need ruling from Desk Emerita.

Who is winner?

https://babylonbee.com/news/under-mounting-pressure-from-snopes-babylon-bee-writers-forced-to-admit-they-are-not-real-journalists

William said...

I don't think transported convicts had much in the way of white privilege. I would guess their descendants aren't too hung up about white privilege either, but, who knows, maybe it's all the rage down under. Maybe they like to pretend they're privileged. Makes them feel aristo instead of convict spawn...When England lost her North American colonies at the end of the Revolutionary War, thinking people thought that the game was up. Nonetheless, England went on to a bigger and better Empire. At the end of WWI, thinking people thought that England had won the war and the Empire was on track for greater glory. Lord Curzon, the foreign secretary, thought that Great Britain should accept some of the stans in the old Russian Empire as protectorates. England pretty much lost the Empire in WWI, but no one knew it at the time...History is lived forward and understood backward. Random events are frequently decisive. I predict that the future will look like nothing anyone is predicting.

wildswan said...

" J. Farmer said...
@wildswan:

The present day American Indians came from Asia fairly recently and their culture is like Asian folk culture. So that culture is more like Shinto than like a European culture, I'm saying.

Shintoism developed in Japan during the Yayoi period, around 500BC to 300AD. This is many thousands of years after humans entered the American continent."

Shinto developed earlier folk traditions which, I believe, were like the American Indian traditions. And the Maya, Aztecs and Incas, like Shinto, developed those traditions from around 250 BC on. The Japanese have a continuous cultural development and in it Shinto was strong enough to develop a response to the European traditions. But the American Indian tradition was dealt such a blow by the fall of the Aztec and Inca centers of culture that the culture from then to now cannot respond to the European presence. An Indian down in Chiloe once said to Darwin: "You think I am just a poor Indian but once we had a prince."

Ralph L said...

The mention of academic resistance to tyranny on one of the threads earlier today reminded me of a dramatization of three U of Munich students and their futile protest during the war. I saw it over a year ago, and the depiction of their show trial and swift, unceremonious execution by guillotine still freaks me out.

On the Pepe thread I just read, buwaya links the German song Die Gedanken sind frei, which has a picture of the students as its video. Now I'm freaked again and it's time for bed.

MadisonMan said...

The bike ride in at 4:15 AM is peaceful. Tossing and turning in bed all night is not.

AAT said...

"The world isn't ending. White supremacy is, and these are the last holdouti,”

I am sure you will get a gold star somewhere in your permanent record for faithfully regurgitating the propaganda you have been fed. I don’t blame you for regurgitating it, BTW, you have been fed so much of it.

Rusty said...

Free markets do not necessarily mean open boarders. A lot of the capital flight to China was a response to over reaching regulation. A LOT of what goes on in manufacturing in China for the US and European market is QA. That is why manufacturing is slowly filtering back.

Chuck said...


Blogger Danno said...
Chuck, have you read John Goodman's article below?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/johngoodman/2019/08/13/we-already-know-what-the-trump-health-plan-is/#7657a99a65e5

Don't sweat a legislative proposal that has zero chance of passing, much less being seriously debated.


I’m not debating healthcare issues.

I am reporting what Trump continues to promise, and then fails to fulfill.

Candidate Trump, not Leader McConnell or Speaker Ryan, was the guy who promised great care for everybody at lower cost. And now it has been President Trump, and absolutely no one else, promising a great new plan in two months. Two months ago.

I’m not arguing the merits of healthcare policy, despite the fact that we should be having that argument. No; I am pointing out the inarguable. That Trump is lying every time he opens his mouth about healthcare.

AAT said...

Just because the press steadfastly refuses to report on TrumpCare doesn’t mean it’s not a thing, Chuck. Do you think that your new friends in the press would treat any other Republican any better? I don’t. They want the complete destruction of the Repubican Party and you are attempting, in your pathetic way, to help them.

Robert Cook said...

"Who will be enforcing these laws if you have mass noncompliance? The Feds can't even force the current sanctuary states/cities to obey the law."

That's because they have chosen not to...so far.

"Do you think the Armed Forces will go to war against U.S. citizen civilians?"

If ordered to, yes. (Look at the National Guard at Kent State University.) And don't forget the hidden military forces already occupying every American town and city, the militarized police forces. They have already shown their readiness to go to war against fellow citizens.

AAT said...

If you succeed, I hope you enjoy your one-party country run by the Democrats for the forseeable future Chuck.

AAT said...

Robert Cook is projecting the evils of the former Soviet Union onto the US. Kent State happened, Czekoslovakia, 1968 never did in Cook’s world

Rusty said...

"Do you think the Armed Forces will go to war against U.S. citizen civilians?"

"If ordered to, yes. "

It would be an illegal order. no one, in the military, from a private on up is obligated to obey an illegal order. In fact I'd go one record as saying they will probably side with the conservatives.

Michael K said...

I suspect this comment may be directed towards me, so let me make a few points

It's just Ritmo trolling.

Drago said...

LLR Chuck: "I’m not debating healthcare issues."

LOL

Of course not! It hurts dems so Chuck will avoid that at ALL costs!

So Reid Hoffman-y predictable.

etbass said...

Agree with all that Farmer has said. Think he has nailed it. Allowing unchecked immigration from peoples who do not share our values and standards is fatal.

But I do believe that the underlying cause is a departure from morality in the U.S. and in western civilization as a whole. When we legalized abortion, to me that was the watershed event that signaled how bad off we were spiritually in our country. Nothing since then has changed my mind. It has gotten worse and worse.

And we are reaping what we sowed.

Chuck said...


Blogger AAT said...
Just because the press steadfastly refuses to report on TrumpCare doesn’t mean it’s not a thing, Chuck. Do you think that your new friends in the press would treat any other Republican any better? I don’t. They want the complete destruction of the Repubican Party and you are attempting, in your pathetic way, to help them.


Try to count the lies, misstatements and inaccuracies.

1. There is no “Trumpcare.” As admitted in June, by Trump in the Stephanopoulos interview, when a trapped Trump needed to make a huge promise to wriggle out of a question he couldn’t answer.

2. The press hasn’t ignored any Trump health care initiative(s); Trump hasn’t supplied any.

3. I don’t have any “new friends in the press.” My consumption of news media has always crossed the usual boundaries. I subscribe to the Wall Street Journal. But also the New Yorker. I listen to NPR, but also watch Fox News. I look at Drudge, National Review, The Bulwark, Althouse, and George Conway’s Twitter feed.

4. I don’t want to see the destruction of the Republican Party and I cannot understand why you think I would. I have had only good things to say about Mitch McConnell, Lindsey Graham, Betsy DeVos, Jeff Sessions, Justices Gorsuch and Kennedy, Scott Walker, John Kasich and Rick Snyder. And you cannot find so much as s word of any general anti-Republican sentiment from me on this blog’s comments pages.

Four big lies in just one short comment from you. You’re almost Trumpian.

Robert Cook said...

"It would be an illegal order. no one, in the military, from a private on up is obligated to obey an illegal order."

How rarely do you think any soldiers disobey illegal orders?

Besides, if the portion of the public to be attacked were characterized by the government as "crimials,""terrorists" and "subversives in revolt against lawful society," etc., (as they would be), why would the police or the military second-guess the order or see it as illegal? To bring up Kent State again, even a majority of the public supported the armed attack of the National Guard on unarmed American college students.

Chuck said...


Blogger Drago said...
LLR Chuck: "I’m not debating healthcare issues."

LOL

Of course not! It hurts dems so Chuck will avoid that at ALL costs!

So Reid Hoffman-y predictable.


We should debate healthcare issues. It should be the nation’s largest and most important debate. Notwithstanding the fact that it doesn’t interest Althouse.

No; what I meant was that I wouldn’t waste my time debating health care with the Trumpkin morons on these comments pages. Not worth my time.

Again, my only point on the subject here was that this week marks the time at which Trump’s bloviating in June got exposed conclusively. Trump lied.

mockturtle said...

Looks like MG is back with a new nom de plume.

Nichevo said...

No, I think that when your house is burning down you don't worry about remodeling the kitchen. If demographics continue the way they are, the pro-choice movement is DOA. Go for an immigration restrictionist above all else, even if he or she is pro-choice. Every issue is secondary to national suicide.

8/19/19, 11:03 PM



This kind of impassioned advocacy, since apparently you didn't know, is the reason that you are supposed to care what other people think of you.

wildswan said...

Just to round off a debate I had with J Farmer last night, I am opposed to open borders because I think the illegals are taking jobs from the citizens (and sometimes in Silicon Valley legals are doing that) and because I think terrorists and criminals are slipping in and staying and abusing the system. It's possible to oppose open borders for reasons other than a supposed need for racial homogeneity and religious homogeneity. To me it's obvious that illiterate, socialist feminists of whatever color are doing more damage in universities than the illiterate illegals who are taking jobs from citizens. It destroys the black family when the men can't get jobs due to illiterate illegals undercutting wages and it destroys society when the university illiterates say men shouldn't have jobs anyhow and aren't needed.

mockturtle said...

Wildswan asserts: And anyhow a lot of the Hispanics here are evangelical Protestants.

This is true, wildswan. I live in a county with 2/3 Hispanic population and they tend to be politically conservative, overall. It's the white Progs, a hyperpolitical force in any community, who are the issue.

Rusty said...

"How rarely do you think any soldiers disobey illegal orders?"
Very. Not many are given. Rule of thumb for leader ship. Never give an order you know won't be obeyed.

Michael K said...

No; what I meant was that I wouldn’t waste my time debating health care with the Trumpkin morons on these comments pages. Not worth my time.

Chuck, I gave you a link to an educated discussion of possible health care reform. All you care about is bashing Trump.

Any protestations on your part about policy issues are lies.

Drago said...

LLR and Reid-Hoffman "conservative" Chuck: "No; what I meant was that I wouldn’t waste my time debating health care with the Trumpkin morons on these comments pages. Not worth my time."

LOL

No, what you meant was your dem candidates are imploding, the ingrained anti-semitism of the dem party is being exposed daily, your russian collusion/obstruction hoaxes have collapsed and additional information is released daily showing the ugly anti-democratic activities of all your heroes (including John "hoax dossier" McCain and Bill "FusionGPS" Kristol) not to mention your lunatic lefty MSM heroes openly proclaiming their alignment with your democrat allies so....SO....soooooooo you are simply flailing looking for anything to change the subject.

Anything at all to save your little lefty pals.

tsk tsk tsk

It's not working Chuckie.

Back to the Reid Hoffman drawing board for you!!

Drago said...

MK: "Chuck, I gave you a link to an educated discussion of possible health care reform. All you care about is bashing Trump.

Any protestations on your part about policy issues are lies."

Along with Inga and Freder, LLR Chuck is easily in the top 3 of established Althouse blog Lefty Liars.

However, LLR Chuck stands alone for his lefty/dem suckup tactics. No other lefty even comes close to him in that regard.

Not even close.

Drago said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Drago said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Drago said...

Speaking of healthcare flailings, did anyone else catch the LLR Chuck-approved dems making fools of themselves (again!) over Medicare for all?

We've got Kamala decrying Bernies plan which she endorsed and co-sponsored!!

Liz Warren is working her way to full AOC level and LLR Chuck fave Beto is....disappearing in the funniest fashion I've ever seen in a joke candidate.

And forget about Biden!! That guy doesn't even know what day of the week it is or where his underwear is kept!!

Not a great couple of weeks for LLR Chuck. Not great at all.

J. Farmer said...

I live in a county with 2/3 Hispanic population and they tend to be politically conservative, overall. It's the white Progs, a hyperpolitical force in any community, who are the issue.

2/3 of Latinos voted for Hillary Clinton in 2016.

Angle-Dyne, Samurai Buzzard said...

J.Farmer: If the you think the Californification of the US will be a great thing, make the argument. If you think the US will be the same country as it has been when less than half the population is white, make the argument. If you think importing the political and cultural problems of Latin America into the United States is a good thing, make the argument.

Arguments rationally addressing specific points aren't really the forte of the sort of people who use the phrase "white supremacy" in earnest.

Straw men and cheap ad-homs, they're good for. But platitudes and bromides - now that's where they really shine.

mockturtle said...

2/3 of Latinos voted for Hillary Clinton in 2016.

But Yuma County, AZ, 2/3 Hispanic, voted for Trump. And Hispanics of Puerto Rican origin are quite different from those of Mexican origin. Remember that Cesar Chavez was very much against illegal immigration because it weakened the position that the hard-won unionization of farm workers achieved. My Mexican-American neighbors are quite conservative regarding moral values and illegal immigration.

Also, we have to consider how many illegals may have voted. We know this happened in California.

Bruce Hayden said...

"What explains the social, cultural, and economic differences between North America and Latin America, given that both are, according to you, 'Christian European cultures'?"

I read something awhile back that looked at the differences between/among English, French, and Spanish settlers to the New World, and esp in what became the US. The Spanish did a lot of proselytization. They conquered by conversion to Catholicism. The French had single men come over and mostly marry natives. The English brought over entire families, who bred like crazy, filling up the new country, and a large number of later immigrants did the same. As a result, our indigenous population essentially became almost irrelevant, as they became numerically almost insignificant.

Another possible factor was the difference several hundred years ago between the teachings of Roman Catholicism and Protestantism, esp Calvinism. Except for high level Catholic clergy and the nobility, acceptance of a life of poverty was taught as being good. A certain level of fatalism was taught. What was important was living a good life in this life, so that you could be rewarded in the next. The innovation of the Calvinists was the belief that you could be monetarily rewarded in this world for righteous living. Mercantilism could be good, not the evil taught by Roman Catholicism and Islam.

I think that what happened over the next 400 years is that Roman Catholicism was forced to adapt, to soften its preachings about creating wealth, and not being obligated to live in poverty because your family lived in poverty (and note that this is almost a complete juxtaposition with Judaism). To probably overstate the case, you could be a devout poor Catholic, or an apostate Protestant living in a much nicer house, etc. So, the Catholic Church weakened its teachings in this area to stay competitive. I think that this was much more in Europe, than in Central and South America, where there were historically many fewer Protestants. And, the Catholic countries could pressure the Vatican in order to remain competitive economically, and thus militarily, with their Protestant neighbors. Now, of course, much of Catholic Europe has turned away from their historic faith, while Latin American (African, etc) Catholics stay much closer to their historic faith. In any case, by now, the differences in this area between Catholics and Protestants has mostly disappeared, and both groups are often now out hustled by Asians.

Chuck said...

8/20/19, 8:47 AM
Blogger Michael K said...
“No; what I meant was that I wouldn’t waste my time debating health care with the Trumpkin morons on these comments pages. Not worth my time.”

Chuck, I gave you a link to an educated discussion of possible health care reform. All you care about is bashing Trump.

Any protestations on your part about policy issues are lies.


That’s my point. In your old age, your brain might not be picking up on that.

This isn’t a health care policy debate. This is a “Trump lied” debate. Trump said that there would be a White House proposal in two months. It didn’t happen. It doesn’t even seem like there was any effort. Trump threw out the sort of bullshit he does in nearly every hard interview, and then everybody shrugged. Because he does it so often.

We can have a good policy debate when Trump gets around to the health care proposal he was talking about (and promising) in June.

Drago said...

LLR Chuck's desperation is palpable.

Sorry Chuck. You are the proud owner of an anti-semitic, fully socialist, pro-infanticide, pro-MS13/Open Borders anti-American set of candidates!

LOL

It couldn't have happened to a nicer guy......!

The best part? Trump did it to you and your democrat allies.

Trump did it to you!

That has gotta be sticking in your pro-obamacare craw, doesn't it?

Drago said...

What we ought to be having a conversation about is LLR Chuck's heroic dem pals like Stolen Valor Blumenthal and Dick "US Troops are Gestapo" Durbin literally threatening the members of the Supreme Court to rule their way.

Similar threats to the ones LLR Chuck makes to conservative women and children.

Drago said...

Would it surprise anyone to know that democrat consultants are desperately trying to steer the debate off of all these subjects which are harming democrats and on to what the dems believe is more helpful to them: healthcare.

And whaddya know, the dem consultants and advisors put the word out on the lefty grapevine to do this and LLR Chuck, "out of the blue" and "all on his own" (wink wink) shows up on Althouse blog demanding that all other subjects be discarded to focus on healthcare!!

LOL

Hey Chuck, did you ever think about maybe attempting some subtlety in advancing your blatantly pro-dem talking points?

Subtlety can go a long way sometimes.......

J. Farmer said...

@mockturtle:

So how has demographic change worked out for conservative politics in California?

mockturtle said...

Bruce Hayden at 9:18, interesting essay. Can you deny that, even in the poorest times for parishioners, the Catholic Church itself was always wealthy?

Drago said...

J Farmer: "So how has demographic change worked out for conservative politics in California?"

Not so well for "conservative politics".

However, California is now chock full of "LLR republicans".......

In particular, the pro-La Raza LLR republicans, like our Chuck at Althouse blog.

J. Farmer said...

@Bruce Hayden:

I agree with most of what you wrote there and would add one more taboo explanation: IQ. Latin America has a lower average IQ than North America.

mockturtle said...

J Farmer: If you read some of my comments last night you will see that I am NOT in favor of demographic change. For instance, I said: It wouldn't be so bad if we were overtaken by a more powerful army but to be dispossessed of our land by weaker folk is adding insult to injury. No, this type of demographic change will be our undoing, through no particular fault of the immigrants, themselves.

J. Farmer said...

@mockturtle:

J Farmer: If you read some of my comments last night you will see that I am NOT in favor of demographic change

Yes, I did read that, and of course I agree with you. I am just pushing back on the notion that Hispanics tend to be politically conservative, though I naturally take you at your word regarding the population you live among. I just don't believe it's representative of the whole. Apologies if my comments sometimes seem unnecessarily confrontational. I just grew up in a family where that kind of arguing and debating are normal ;)

mockturtle said...

I am just pushing back on the notion that Hispanics tend to be politically conservative

Those who are most politically active are not but most are not politically active. In my experience, this is also true of blacks. Those who are most politically active are those who like to use race as a venue and are usually left-leaning.

Angle-Dyne, Samurai Buzzard said...

wildswan: Both groups are coming here and have to learn a northern European approach especially to government and the social contract. It isn't a racial problem; it's culture when you are an American because we have a universalist system.

The point is that they if they come in large enough numbers, decade after decade after decade, then the conditions that require them "to learn a northern European approach" will break down, and they won't. (Do you think Los Angeles is a shining example of mass immigration in a short period resulting in "learning a northern European approach"? After all, its population of "natural conservatives" has been growing by leaps and bounds in recent decades.)

It's a simple time & numbers matter, which no amount of nattering about "it's culture", or any number of anecdotes about "my conservative Hispanic neighbors" changes. I really don't know why people have such difficulty grasping this.

And please don't trot out "but but but the Irish and the Italians!". In the first place, the Irish and Italians did change the culture to some degree. The Italians and we micks were more or less successfully assimilated into a functional political culture under specific conditions, two of the most important being 1) a confident dominant culture that made no bones about demanding assimilation (as a matter of fact, that was often downright bullying and "discriminatory" and "prejudiced" about it), and 2) a long period of severe immigration restriction after the "great waves" (to digest all the newcomers and bully us into becoming like the natives).

These conditions no longer prevail. You can bitch all you want about the menace of "atheistical illiterate socialists" to Our Culture, but in the face of non-stop mass immigration, that's just pissing in the wind. Under the present prevailing conditions, what you're calling the "northern European approach" is inevitably replaced. There is no "magic dirt".

And btw, we do not have a "universalist system". Our system is the product of a specific, historically grounded cultural and political tradition, which is not representative of how most of the human race thought and thinks about the right way to structure a society. A lot of fine and admirable cultural traditions aren't really compatible with it.

Michael K said...

These conditions no longer prevail.

Two quibbles. One, there was no welfare system unless you count Tammany Hall.

Two, about 20 to 30 % of Italian immigrants went back to Italy in the 20s and 30s.

mockturtle said...

The point is that they if they come in large enough numbers, decade after decade after decade, then the conditions that require them "to learn a northern European approach" will break down, and they won't.

This is true, Angle-Dyne. In my county, for instance, Spanish is spoken more than is English. And 'conservative values' do not necessarily translate to American cultural values. I totally agree with both you and Farmer that our culture--our country--as we know/knew it will be destroyed. Not because immigrants will consciously destroy it but because they can't help but bring their own culture with them and in such mass that it will become the dominant culture. As it already is in Yuma County, AZ.

Angle-Dyne, Samurai Buzzard said...

mockturtle: And 'conservative values' do not necessarily translate to American cultural values.

That's a very good point, mock. "Conservative values" are parochial by their nature. There is no such thing as universal "conservative values".

Angle-Dyne, Samurai Buzzard said...

Michael K: "These conditions no longer prevail."

Two quibbles. One, there was no welfare system unless you count Tammany Hall.

Two, about 20 to 30 % of Italian immigrants went back to Italy in the 20s and 30s.


So what's the quibble? Those conditions no longer prevail, either.

Michael K said...

So what's the quibble?

Just that other factors have changed and may be more important.

rcocean said...

Yeah, immigration would be OK if we got rid of the welfare state. And deficits wouldn't matter if we had unicorns shitting gold bricks. We're not going to get rid of the Welfare state, ever. So if you favor open borders - you'r going to get with welfare and government benefits attached. Just be honest and say so.

gahrie said...

Besides, if the portion of the public to be attacked were characterized by the government as "crimials,""terrorists" and "subversives in revolt against lawful society," etc., (as they would be), why would the police or the military second-guess the order or see it as illegal?


Because most of their families would be included in that portion of the public so characterized.

Robert Cook said...

"Because most of their families would be included in that portion of the public so characterized."

How do you know that to be so? Also, don't you think that when military and police forces in other countries put the boot down on the populace that many among the military and police have family members or friend and acquaintances among those being put down? You don't think the National Guard soldiers at Kent State who fired on college students were not friends with or related to people in college, possibly even people attending Kent State?