July 31, 2019

"We have a generation coming up where yelling is really not a very acceptable way of expressing yourself."

“For them, the value in anger and aggression has not yet been untied from toxic masculinity. I tell my patients that anger, like anxiety, can be a very important and useful emotion when harnessed correctly. Often, we get to the most onerous, blistering, radical truth about something when we’re angry. But, over all, there is a more reserved and muted sense of emotional expressivity... I think if you’re a young man in America, the notion that you’re going to yell in anger is hugely conflictual and no longer acceptable, and potentially will get you medicated.... I hear people being much more reflective. They’ve been raised on words like ‘inclusivity’ and ‘community’ and ‘organic.’ ”

Said the psychiatrist Drew Ramsey, quoted in "The Decline of Yelling" by Amanda Petrusich (at The New Yorker).

This is interesting to see this morning, because last night, live-blogging the Democratic candidates' debate, I wrote, "So much yelling and stress" (at 7:34 CT) and "May the yelling end soon. I am weary" (at 8:58 CT). To my ear, Bernie Sanders was nearly always yelling. Elizabeth Warren was often yelling. It really bothered me.

Petrusich brings up "The Primal Scream" — that 1970s book by Arthur Janov. It was a kind of psychotherapy. Yelling will help. Supposedly. But there's later research:
A 2015 paper published in Current Biology studied how screams—or any noise that results “from the bifurcation of regular phonation to a chaotic regime,” thereby making it “particularly difficult to predict and ignore”—occupy “a privileged acoustic niche,” neurologically distinct from other communication signals. It’s that niche—what scientists refer to as “roughness,” or a modulation rate between about thirty and a hundred and fifty hertz—that makes a scream... cut through all other stimuli, regardless of relative volume. Physically, it’s nearly impossible for a human being not to be deeply and instinctively alarmed by yelling....

139 comments:

Carol said...

I don't like any of the emo stuff. I keep waiting to find our Margaret Thatcher. Now, she, was cool. Obama was cool, too. I'll give him that. Cheney was very cool.

It's just an affect, I know, but it puts you at ease and makes the speaker look as if he can handle the situation at hand, or any situation.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

""We have a generation coming up where yelling is really not a very acceptable way of expressing yourself.""

I don't remember when yelling has ever been acceptable as a way of expressing yourself.

Yelling and talking over each other, at least in my experience, have always been considered rude and bad manners.

Talking over each other is exactly why I don't watch television news/talk shows. Makes me want to YELL.......Everyone SHUT UP and take turns talking!!

Wince said...

Yelling is one of those weasel words, isn't it?

Often people will say someone "yelled" at them, even without a raised voice, simply upon receiving unwelcome criticism.

gahrie said...

Yelling is bad because men do it, just like everything else that men do.

tim maguire said...

Yelling is powerful precisely because it is not acceptable, and therefore rare. Like profanity, it's power comes from its taboo status. Do it all the time and you're just annoying.

n.n said...

Toxic masculinity. Toxic femininity. It's not gender specific. Toxic transgenderism.

Yancey Ward said...

What world did the author grow up in? I am 53 years old, and yelling was never acceptable or common. If anything, it is more acceptable and common today on my own observations.

AustinRoth said...

Seems like all MSM talk shows are doomed then.

Lucid-Ideas said...

I read something recently that suggested yelling 'fuck' increases one's pain threshold by a 1/3.

21st century America will involve more yelling, not less.

Fernandinande said...

I was so angry I accidentally told the truth!

Ann Althouse said...

"I don't remember when yelling has ever been acceptable as a way of expressing yourself."

Me neither.

But I have known some INDIVIDUALS who have insisted that it is.

Also, I've been in various discussions about what counts as unacceptable loudness/intensity of speech, whether there's an objective standard, and whether the intent or the effect on the hearer matters more.

Fernandinande said...

Psychiatrist Jack Handey has analysized the incline of yelling, to wit:

As the light changed from red to green to yellow and back to red again, I sat there thinking about life. Was it nothing more than a bunch of honking and yelling? Sometimes it seemed that way.
+
I can still recall old Mister Barnslow getting out every morning and nailing a fresh load of tadpoles to the old board of his. Then he'd spin it round and round, like a wheel of fortune, and no matter where it stopped he'd yell out, "Tadpoles! Tadpoles is a winner!" We all thought he was crazy. But then we had some growing up to do.
+
When I die, I would like to go peacefully, in my sleep, like my grandfather did. Not screaming and yelling like the passenger in his car.

Hunter said...


I read something recently that suggested yelling 'fuck' increases one's pain threshold by a 1/3.


Andrew Yang must be invincible then.

Lucid-Ideas said...

The USMC did a study on cadre several years back that indicated it was the female drill instructors that actually yelled more. I assumed this was because the girls were more difficult to manage (oh boy are they) and because they were so unaccustomed to a woman with authority cursing and yelling like a sailor it got the results they wanted.

I've known female NCOs that could make men cry, much less women. So it's OK if the girls do it guess.

Ann Althouse said...

"Yelling is bad because men do it, just like everything else that men do."

People tend to say "screaming" or "screeching" or "shrieking" if it's a woman. Those words sound even more negative to me, since "yelling" could be something you do in a sports arena or to try to be heard by someone some distance away.

Fernandinande said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Fernandinande said...

But I have known some INDIVIDUALS who have insisted that it is.

Wasn't one of the individuals a famous law-tawkin guy supposedly tawkin bout the New York...not accent, what was it...speech pattern? In a video? Without uptalk?

Dave said...

I went to the doctor with Melissa. We were standing in the entrance to the building and a doctor walked in. He had a on a loony tunes tie and I commented on it, and he was super rude. He didnt yell or curse.

We went into a room and they were getting information from my wife. The nurse tried to force my wife to give her genetically protected information and was also rude. I pushed back, not by yelling but definitely letting her know we didnt want that in their computer. She was rude, jumped up out of her chair and startled me.

I have the borderline personality, and I got very upset. I jumped up, stormed into the waiting area and started yelling. No one got went to get my wife.

I asked for a complaint form and they brought me a piece of paper. I told them I was disabled, but no good.

They called the police AFTER I left and filed harassment charges against me.

I had to get a lawyer and go to court. Charges dismissed for lack of evidence.

The process is the punishment. It cost me 2K to defend myself.

So, it's a crime to yell and curse in Colorado.

joshbraid said...

"Gilroy Garlic Festival Shooting: Alleged Shooter Screamed Out ‘I’m Really Angry’"
https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2019/07/29/gilroy-garlic-festival-mass-shooting-alleged-shooter-screamed-out-im-really-angry/

Yancey Ward said...

"Yelling" probably is a weasel word.

Lucid-Ideas said...

"We have a generation coming up where yelling is really not a very acceptable way of expressing yourself."

This is absolutely positively the reason why it will be effective and come back with a vengeance, if you couldn't tell since '16.

Culture is cyclical, and Americans are a defiant people with large numbers of individuals with enough intelligence to see what cultural norms are acceptable and will choose to do the exact opposite.

Also, women love passionate men. Tone and volume indicate dominance. Ask me how.

Dave said...

Women don't get charged with harassment for screeching as far as I know. When I was in the courthouse I talked to another guy who was also being charged with harassment. He had a conflict with a woman, and I could tell he was telling me the truth.

In his story they were fussing and she called the cops. They took him in but left her.

I can go on and on and on.

There is pervasive anti-male bias in our society.

Krumhorn said...

Generally, our hostess has been a reasonably accurate weather vane that often points in the direction of voting women who identify themselves as independent. I sure hope she's keeping her swivel well-oiled because I like where she's pointing these days.

- Krumhorn

Hunter said...

I wonder how or whether this dovetails with the notion that the upcoming generation is going to turn out more reactionary/conservative as a backlash to the social justice movement. After all SJWs love nothing better than to yell at people about their privilege.

Yelling should be an off-putting behavior because it signals a person is in thrall to their emotions rather than to reason.

Lucid-Ideas said...

My office has recently been experiencing one problem after another with our printer/copier. Seems like something new has been coming up almost everyday for last 3 weeks.

I like to euphemistically describe my expletive-laced yelling as 'using my Army words' and I did so on Monday and...lo and behold it printed!

No further issues since Monday. Through trial and error I've learned 'Army words' work wonders on things as well as people

From Hummers to Humans to Hurting, I encourage all to yell 'fuck' evocatively!

Dave said...

I have to stop commenting here. I am not going to continue training google's neural networks.

rehajm said...

Remember that little yelling session for people what couldn't handle the Trump victory? That yelling is more soothing than a shiatsu.

Nonapod said...

I agree with DBQ, yelling has never been an "acceptable way of expressing" oneself. Demonstrating anger in such an explicit way has always indicated either a lack of self control or that someone has been pushed to a breaking point. It's an indicator of something has gone horribly wrong, either with the person or the situation.

And I reject the notion that there's some new enlightened group of young people who are more "reflective". While I certainly wish that were true, it seems to me that young people have become much more intolerant of different ideas, and more likely to want to silence any dissenting view points rather than embracing them. Assuming Social Media is anyting to go by, it seems like they've become far less tolerant.

Susan said...

Actually, we have a generation coming up where it is commonplace for 5th graders to have screaming throw yourself on the floor meltdowns in class and teachers are at fault for "triggering " them by asking if homework is done etc. Which would be ominous enough if it weren't ALSO commonplace for college students to have screaming throw yourself on the floor meltdowns at public speeches where someone with whom they disagree is attempting to speak.

I remember in kindergarten in the 60s when I hastily swiped a tear from my eye when mother dropped me off lest the other kids think I was some sort of baby.

BJM said...

Codswallop.

"I don't remember when yelling has ever been acceptable as a way of expressing yourself."

Me neither.


Manners and common civility have gone by the wayside. Being polite is uncool, crudity for it's own sake is applauded. Have you noticed that younger Americans have atrocious table manners as well.

Andrew said...

I guess these young folks won't be voting for Sanders or Warren.

Francisco D said...

I don't remember when yelling has ever been acceptable as a way of expressing yourself.

It was standard practice for many of the WWII generation, but I don't think it was acceptable among the higher income and better educated classes.

Income and education are still important determinants, just as they are in smoking.

Black Bellamy said...

People are definitely definitely more passive now. Without a doubt. It's hard to be violent and angry when you're busy growing phone-related bone spurs out of the back of your skull.

Nonapod said...

People may be more passive in person, but online they've become much more aggressive.

chuck said...

Ah, the 70's, when anger was also pushed a therapy. Of course, people who expressed their anger just became angrier. Funny how that works. And I agree that the younger generation is a bit on the passive side, which perhaps explains the popularity of political meltdowns and Antifa violence as acceptable venues for yelling and anger. Not to mention humorists who specialize in childish bad words and toilet jokes.

robother said...

Perhaps Bernie misunderstood the popularity of that movie, "Old Yeller."

Seeing Red said...

Trigglypuff

Jamie said...

I can say that my teenage daughter sometimes claims I was "yelling" at her when my tone hadn't changed at all - only the subject matter. So maybe the "yelling" being referenced is actually a euphemism for "disagreeing."

Having a daughter who comes home from school talking left-leaning chapter and verse has been enlightening. She can at times be convinced that at least our position deserves more thought than she's given it. Our oldest didn't turn left until he went off to college (and his first job is now in Houston and is in finance, so maybe he'll return to the ways of the right-eous), and our youngest is a staunch MAGA guy. It's pretty fun around our place these days.

Fernandinande said...

toilet jokes.

A toilet walks into a bar and the bartender says, "Say, I haven't seen you around before, where are you from?"

"Flushing."

readering said...

MY MOM STILL TYPES LIKE THIS WHEN SHE WANTS MY ATTENTION

traditionalguy said...

Expressing your thoughts loudly wakes people up and causes them to listen. The only downside to that is if your message is nonsense. That's also the old aphorism about people not knowing if you are a fool until you speak and removed all doubt.

The emotion of anger is basic human reaction that says authenticity. Jesus said to be angry...but don't sin.

stevew said...

Agree with everyone here that's throwing the BS flag on the notion that yelling was at some point in the past acceptable. I work in a high intensity, high pressure sales environment, and have for the past 35 years. It's not a boiler room scenario, but intense around finding, working, and closing new business. There are lots of conflicts and confrontations. Sometimes voices are raised, and DBQ's rules about interrupting and talking over others are often violated. I can't recall a situation I was part of where yelling occurred. I have heard stories of shouting matches between folks, but never witnessed or participated in one.

I have had experience with customers yelling; at me, about my company, about our product, etc. In every case it was due to frustration about something not going as well as hoped or expected. FWIW, I've seen plenty of folks get very, very angry, but not yell. You can tell by their posture, the steadfast intensity of their gaze, and, sometimes, the bright red color of their face.

Personally I work very hard to maintain my composure. I don't do my best when I'm angry.

MBunge said...

Yelling has, at least until the last decade or so, always been seen as appropriate behavior in certain situations. Drill sergeants yelled. Coaches yelled. Protesters yelled. Your boss would yell at you if you screwed up and your parents would to.

Yelling is just a social cue for "I'm really angry" or "You need to take this very seriously." Like all behavior it can get out of control but, like violence, trying to completely expunge it from human existence is both futile and self-destructive.

Mike

SDaly said...

I suppose it's based upon context. Yelling and screaming by women in pussy-hats, is encouraged. Yelling and banging drums in the face of catholic schoolboys is lauded.

reader said...

When I was a child and my sister and I would play outside (with the neighbor kids) my mom had a rule - no screaming unless someone was bleeding, broken, or dead. When she was in the house she would listen for that pitch and when she would come out to see what had happened. Her being scared would quickly turn to anger if that rule had been broken.

All of the kids on our street were held to her rule, not just my sister and I.

traditionalguy said...

The other situation is when the listening person has to hear from you because you hold the power that they must deal with. Then it is best not to speak at all while they offer you more and more concessions. Then you talk as softly as you can making them strain to hear...all because you carry a big stick.

PDM said...

I guess if the premise is limited to "yelling in anger," there's not much to disagree with, here. But yelling for men probably comes a lot more naturally than for women, because men traditionally do the loud jobs that require yelling -- fighting wars, loading freight, running heavy machinery, operating factory equipment, etc. Camille Paglia recognizes in some of her writing that the devaluation of masculinity usually ignores all that men do to keep society on track. Yelling in anger may not be one of those things, but yelling to make the world go 'round sure is. There ought to be some grace for times when that yelling bleeds over into polite, non-masculine society. Men inherently understand that. But maybe not this psychiatrist.

reader said...

... then she would come out...

Limited blogger said...

Trump doesn't yell

Marcus Bressler said...

Don't remember anyone doing the yelling thing on a regular basis while I was growing up.
My mother would yell for us to stop playing and come in for dinner, but I suspect it was more like shouting.
The FWB occasionally yells during sex but it could be called screaming in some sense.
If I hit my thumb with a hammer, I think I would yell. At least once or twice to get the rush out.
If we played too loud in house, my parents would say, "stop yelling". We were merely raising our voices. But we obeyed.
This writer is way off. False premise to start with.
I was going to sign off as "OLDYELLER" but someone beat me to it.

THEOLDMAN

Jim at said...

It's been my experience it's the person who's not yelling during a time of anger that I need to watch out for.

jaydub said...

Since moving back after five years in Europe, I've noticed that many Americans tend to talk very loudly and often yell over each other in bars and restaurants. I suppose it was always that way, but I didn't notice it before probably because I was doing it too. It doesn't appear to be gender driven to me; women can be just as loud as men in this regard, just with higher pitched voices which can be doubly annoying. Men tend to yell on cell phones more than women do - almost like they are talking into a tin can/string arrangement rather than a cell phone - but probably due to either a lack of self awareness or as a means to draw attention to themselves. Regardless, it's an annoyance I hadn't noticed before.

sinz52 said...

Well, the next time that a liberal mob tries to shout down a conservative speaker at some forum, the speaker should accuse them of "toxic masculinity."

Except what does he say to the left-wing women who are howling and screaming?

Nonapod said...

Jim at said...
It's been my experience it's the person who's not yelling during a time of anger that I need to watch out for.


Yeah, the quiet ones who reach a state of tranquil fury are always far more terrifying than Yelly McYells-a-lot.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

It's been my experience it's the person who's not yelling during a time of anger that I need to watch out for.

This is the truth!! The yelling jerks are not always the danger. My husband has never raised his voice to me. We have minor disagreements as do all couples who have been married for a quarter century (egad!). When he gets silent, I know it is serious and we'd better wait a bit and then have a discussion to resolve whatever the issue may be. No problems.

I have however seen him get really really angry at a few people on some occasions. At those times he also gets quiet, still, and his eyes become alarming. Where they are normally a pale clear blue, they become a piercing icy blue, almost white blue like ice. He admirably holds his temper and has learned from his past mistakes as a teen and young man that "no good will come of this".

When this happens, I have seen these men just back away from him. Distance = safety. Instincts are a very powerful thing.

SDaly said...

No need to yell. If you want to capture someone's attention, whisper.

JohnAnnArbor said...

"Conflictual"?

bagoh20 said...

Just ask Howard Dean.

So, I guess now we are supposed to whisper as we run away: "fire!", or "watch out for that tree!", or "that guy has his dick out!"

stever said...

We have a generation coming that would rather watch porn than do real sex.

Swede said...

All these princesses would never make it in the Army.

I've heard chaplains yell and drop f bombs.

Generation Ice Cube. Melt at the first sign of heat.

bagoh20 said...

Sam Kinnison would be the King Kong of this generation.

wild chicken said...

Lately I've noticed more how yelly Limbaugh is. It's that gut powering the voice. Levin is a terrible yeller too. I want to tell them to jack down akready.

Maybe I'm just aging out of this shtick.

Michael K said...

Levin is a terrible yeller too.

I agree about Levin. Limbaugh has a lot of humor, which is good.

Nonapod said...

Lately I've noticed more how yelly Limbaugh is

In fairness, the guy is functionally deaf so he might not be able to fully discern his own voice volume anymore.

Joe said...

I think yelling is being used as a proxy for anger, especially by men. In part, the idea is that if you don't get angry, then it won't escalate to something more. One problem is that this excuses the cause for anger.

M Jordan said...

Yelling is usually a losing proposition but worse than that is anger smothered by faux even-tonedness. I’d rather anger display itself in full array than watch it glower under a deadly stare.

Jim at said...

Except what does he say to the left-wing women who are howling and screaming?

Shuddup and make me a sammich?

NotWhoIUsedtoBe said...

Cool with me. If women stopped yelling, too, that would be great.

Seeing Red said...

Whisper if you see a kid in a dangerous situation.

It’s like jazz hands instead of clapping.

Meade said...

“Why am I the one who must be the thief ?
Come to me now, you know
We're so alone
And life is brief.“

Hammond X. Gritzkofe said...

AA: "So much yelling and stress"

Yep, my first thought reading your post headline was: Tell it to the Democrat debaters and the TV babblers. Interrupting, talking over eachother, raised voices. Big turn off.

RNB said...

"People tend to say 'screaming' or 'screeching' or 'shrieking' if it's a woman." Women and minorities worst-affected.

traditionalguy said...

Interestingly, the Dumbocrats have made authentic anger into a grade B act. Phony anger is a terrible approach to try. Gag.

stevew said...

Once in a meeting with a senior exec of a company that makes parachutes, he said, in a very calm but pointed and intense way, "If our product worked as poorly as yours does, people would die.". Then he stood up and left the room. Much more effective than yelling.

narciso said...

people who are likely yelling now,


https://variety.com/2019/digital/news/gawker-relaunch-postponed-layoffs-bustle-digital-1203286215/

Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...

brings John Lennon to mind.

...and that story about the dog believed to have contracted hydrophobia (rabies). His owner,Travis realizes that he must kill the dog he loves to keep him from spreading the infection.

narciso said...

kids in a hurry to imitate pop,


https://www.weaselzippers.us/427712-breaking-u-s-intel-hamza-bin-laden-osama-bin-ladens-son-is-dead/

rcocean said...

People used to yell in the workplace. They'd pound tables and get worked up. Most of it was older guys who'd been in "the service" or had worked in blue collar jobs where the boss/foreman would yell at you and "Chew you out" over something. Sometimes they' yell at each other - and then go to lunch together or play golf.

Once we get more women, the yelling went away.

HoodlumDoodlum said...

Let It All Out

HoodlumDoodlum said...

Yelling?

HoodlumDoodlum said...

Short story: a relation of mine once owned a rental house outside of Beaufort, near Parris Island (Marine Corp Recruit Depot) and apparently a number of Marine drill instructors lived nearby. He said in the evening he could tell when they'd come home--they had been yelling all day and for a while when the came home they still yelled, gradually getting quieter/back to normal volume. Learning to yell/project all day without destroying their voices is apparently a big part of the early DI training.

JaimeRoberto said...

Apparently my wife didn't get the memo that yelling isn't acceptable. When my kids or I point it out to her, she replies "I'M NOT YELLING!"

alanc709 said...

I often get accused of yelling when I haven't even raised my voice. Once, I actually yelled at someone after they said that, to show them the difference. The expression on his face was precious. Speaking stridently will get you accused of yelling, especially if you are contradicting someone. Has nothing to do with the amount of volume. Well, I come from a family of opera singers, so maybe I can project better than most.

Kathryn51 said...

Just got on the computer, came first to Althouse. Then went on Twitter and first thing at the top (because I decided to follow Tim Ryan after the debate last night)

This is the new Tim Ryan Sticker: "You Don't Have to Yell. Tim Ryan 2020"

Will Cate said...

As Ingachuck'stoothlessARM alluded to above... John Lennon was Janov's most famous client. His album "Plastic Ono Band" is all about it.

narciso said...

Odds its not fake:
https://nypost.com/2019/07/31/gloria-allred-claims-she-has-new-evidence-against-jeffrey-epstein/?utm_campaign=iosapp&utm_source=facebook_app&fbclid=IwAR2Rt_-OnHyhrBx29CJVbBZIzmG-uIixLi9Qaq2n_HmGWQF0jPO9rcoUjh0

StephenFearby said...

Shouting Thomas could likely give an informed opinion on this topic.

Me, I'm given to emitting stentorian yells at privileged bicyclists in NYC who ignore red lights and almost run you down. I startled one guy so much he fell off his bike.

This outcome didn't quite make my day, but I sure felt good about it.

rcocean said...

I love that Bernie yells. I love the passion. He's almost 80 and he's fired up! I'll take that any day over some droning wimpy white guy like Hickenlooper.

Narr said...

"Passengers in his BUS," F.

Narr
Old yeller

Spiros said...

The Guardian published an article titled "It's an alpha male thing: what dominant chimpanzees and Donald Trump have in common." Because screaming and chest thumping are part of the alpha chimp's dominance display, Trump's bullying and aggressive tweets were described as a way to project the image of an alpha male.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/sep/14/donald-trump-alpha-male-chimpanzee-behavior

readering said...

I've worked at four law firms in my time. Folks have raised their voices at times, but only at one firm did I get yelled at loudly enough for a secretary to come and close the door. Once by a male partner when I was an associate and once by a female department head when I was a partner. In both cases, their tempers contributed to their being asked to leave at some point.

Ice Nine said...

If you are a man, your arguing with a woman will invariably be described by her as "yelling." Amirite, guys?

tcrosse said...

The Guardian published an article titled "It's an alpha male thing: what dominant chimpanzees and Donald Trump have in common."

How many of these more evolved specimens yell at the TV?

Blue@9 said...

Last time I yelled was when I saw a guy being very rough with his gf on the sidewalk. There's a reason to keep yelling in reserve for serious situations.

FullMoon said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
John Althouse Cohen said...

You can hear this in the indie music that's come out in the last 10 or 15 years vs. the music of the '90s. The thing now is for men to sing with a hush, as if they're trying not to bother anyone. Listen to Grizzly Bear (21st century) vs. Soundgarden's heyday in the '90s. Or listen to Iron & Wine (21st century) vs. Pearl Jam. Or Death Cab for Cutie vs. Nine Inch Nails. Even a '90s singer like Jeff Buckley, who had a basically gentle sensibility, let out a sustained shriek in his great song "Grace."

With music or other entertainment, it might not be that big a deal. What's more disturbing is how much of government policy is determined by which politicians are best at yelling in a way that gets masses of people riled up.

CWJ said...

As someone accused and subsequently condemned for "yelling," and by condemned I mean the fact of "yelling" overrode anything about the situation that brought it on, this post hits very close to home. Two commenters comments, among others, apply.

First readering (no surprise) "I've worked at four law firms in my time. Folks have raised their voices at times, but only at one firm did I get yelled at loudly enough for a secretary to come and close the door."

Note that readering provides NO context as to whether or not he had performed in such a way one way or another to warrant the other person's anger.

Second alenc709 "I often get accused of yelling when I haven't even raised my voice. Once, I actually yelled at someone after they said that, to show them the difference. The expression on his face was precious. Speaking stridently will get you accused of yelling, especially if you are contradicting someone."

Exactly. An accusation of "yelling" is just another arrow in The quiver. I'm a bit lost as to the difference, other than whose ox is being gored, between raising one's voice and yelling.

That said, I must say that I am somewhat in awe of people who can express exasperation and threats calmly.

rcocean said...

"With music or other entertainment, it might not be that big a deal. What's more disturbing is how much of government policy is determined by which politicians are best at yelling in a way that gets masses of people riled up."

Sorry but this is wrong. Nobody was yelling before Trump came along. They were all agreeing and patting each other on the back. McCain was PROUD to lose to his "good friend" Obama. Mitt was PROUD to lose to "Good Friend" Obama. Bush and Kerry/Gore NEVER Yelled. And Dole wanted to Lose for the right reasons.

And then came Trump. He got everyone RILED UP. Then the Anti-Trumpers started Yelling. How dare Trump and his deplores... But they could have NOT yelled. They could have accepted Trump's election - the People's verdict - and CALMLY worked with Trump to govern. But no.

So I'm glad people are YELLING. Let the D's nominate Bernie. Lets have some honest YELLING. Instead of dishonest quiet talk. Maybe, we need more people getting RILED UP. Because people want change. Even if the Well-to-do don't.

iowan2 said...

Yelling and foul language are a sign of low intelligence. A lack of vocabulary, and a lack of confidence in your position. According to my parents. As I matured, experience born out the accuracy of my parents teaching. Exceptions are rare.

Marcus Bressler said...

Blowing the horn in your car is the equivalent of yelling. THAT, I do.

THEOLDMAN

Yes, I know the law regarding use of the horn but if you try to point it out to me, I'll yell at you.

Tomcc said...

Stevew: Once in a meeting with a senior exec of a company that makes parachutes, he said, in a very calm but pointed and intense way, "If our product worked as poorly as yours does, people would die."
And yet, Microsoft continues to (substantially) own the desktop.

Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...

walks into crowded theater: "FI--"
Shhhhhh!
"Oh, sorry-- "fire"

readering said...

NO surprise?

ken in tx said...

I had a boss who was very loud in the office. We were both Majors in the AF, but he out-ranked me. I spent Thanksgiving day with him and his family one time. His children screamed constantly and the adults yelled at each other all day. I was thankful when the day was over.

Koreans in our office thought he must care a lot about his job because he was always yelling. Korean men yell in normal conversation.

Bob Smith said...

People used to be polite because manners were valued. And if you were rude where I grew up you got knocked on your a**.

CWJ said...

readering, Yep, none. I said that above.

Howard said...

Blogger Ann Althouse said...

"I don't remember when yelling has ever been acceptable as a way of expressing yourself."

Me neither.


Female Privilege in it's full glory. In deadly jobs, including military, industrial machinery, electricity, chemicals, demo-construction, etc.

Sometimes when shit is happening Men don't have time to explain themselves. By expressing anger, you say a lot with few words. It gets your attention quickly.

Meade said...

Aggressively yelling in anger at an old person can be a violation of elder abuse statutes. Same as child abuse laws for yelling at young children under the age of 4. If I were ever to yell aggressively in anger at anyone I would strongly consider seeking professional help for managing my anger. Especially if I were a drug or alcohol user.

CWJ said...

Meade, as soon as you phrase it as aggressively yelling in anger, you've gone beyond yelling per se. And as I've said above "yelling" is difficult to distinguish between "raising one's voice" except in the mind of whose ox is being gored.

That said, I'm in agreement with your statement, absent extreme circumstances.

Howard said...

If a kid is about to do something that could maim, cripple or kill, nothing works better to stop their forward momentum than genuine furious anger.

Meade said...

Furiously expressing anger has led to far more maimings and killings than it has prevented.

CWJ said...

"Furiously expressing anger" is only one subset of yelling.

Meade said...

The article is specifically about that very subset of yelling.

Howard said...

you can say that again

CWJ said...

Althouse's post is a bit all over the place. Indeed, it seems to take the anger angle and generalize it to all yelling rather than the other way around.

"We have a generation coming up where yelling is really not a very acceptable way of expressing yourself."

Sounds very generalized to me.

CWJ said...

"Once associated with toughness, vigor, and power, yelling is now considered aggressive and domineering, an odious side effect of hubris and privilege."

OK, I clicked through, and this was the first thing I saw. Where is the anger angle? This is yet another subset. My point is that "yelling" is being stretched to cover whatever sins it needs to be stretched to cover. In its own way, "yelling" is being redefined to convict whomever needs convicting.

Narr said...

"Aggressively yelling in anger," is how Meade@808 puts it. OK, let's lop ends to get--

"Aggressively yelling" or "yelling in anger." Is one of them alone enough for whatever sanction the law or morality demands? Not a trick question, and I've tried to keep up.
(Also lopped the elder and child scenarios.)

I've certainly yelled in anger . . . even at old people . . . and they were yelling right back! Most likely they started it too, though I've overreacted my share . . . I've yelled in anger at people doing deliberately stupid and dangerous things.

The irony is that most people think of me as a very mellow and even-tempered guy (which I am: Beware the anger of the patient man).

Narr
Masculine voice of privilege story to follow, with yelling!

Meade said...

“Where is the anger angle?“

Throughout the article.

Oso Negro said...

Blogger iowan2 said...
Yelling and foul language are a sign of low intelligence. A lack of vocabulary, and a lack of confidence in your position. According to my parents. As I matured, experience born out the accuracy of my parents teaching. Exceptions are rare.


https://www.sciencealert.com/swearing-is-a-sign-of-more-intelligence-not-less-say-scientists

I guess your parents weren't quite as smart as you thought. Perhaps lack of cursing is a WASP thing and a lot of us aren't playing your game. For my part, I have always enjoyed creative cursing.

Oso Negro said...

Blogger Howard said...

Female Privilege in it's full glory. In deadly jobs, including military, industrial machinery, electricity, chemicals, demo-construction, etc.

Sometimes when shit is happening Men don't have time to explain themselves. By expressing anger, you say a lot with few words. It gets your attention quickly.


Exactly. Try managing a chemical plant and speaking in a hushed Willie Wonka voice "no, stop, don't". AFTER managing a chemical plant, I went on to teach others how to do it. One of my favorite set of students were Chinese. They enormously enjoyed being taught to properly curse in English.

Narr said...

One afternoon about 5 or 6 years ago I was making a trip to the men's room when I noticed two young people at the top of the eight flights of stairs in the library rotunda lobby, that link the four library floors for those want to avoid the elevators. I can see them through the thick glass rotunda wall and I realize it's a boy and a girl and they're in some sort of tussle, and I hear her whining and pleading.

Aw f*** s***! I hasten closer and they are starting to bump down the steps with her on her rump. They are small and dark, her English is accented and she's pleading "No!" and his name which I can't make out. By the time I arrive within arm's reach I have realized that he's not abducting her, he's trying his best to get loose and she has a death grip on his backpack. He takes a step down and she follows on her rump, keening the while.

Huh. I have already started bellowing "Security!" and people are looking at the scene, more step downs, I yell at my most stentorian "Please let the young man go!" Bump, bump, bump, all the way down, "Please stop moving!" "Please let him go!" "Security!" Bump and finally we're on the ground floor. He shakes his backpack and her off and heads for the exit, she collapses wailing on the floor, and finally one of my lady librarian colleagues gathers her up and walks her away.

Everyone around had heard and seen as much as I had once I saw the couple and started yelling, so there wasn't much for me to say, and I needed to go to the men's room, remember?

It was noisier and far more dramatic than anything else I ever had to deal with as White Man in a Tie, and I'm glad it turned out NOT to require me to touch either party, which would undoubtedly have led to Trouble with a capital P(olitics) and nothing positive for me.

Narr
The next day they were back together, sitting quietly on one another outside the fourth floor men's room. Students!



Oso Negro said...

I also like the country better when miscreant children were beaten in public.

CWJ said...

"A few weeks ago, a short clip of a state senator named Katie Muth, a Democrat from Montgomery County, Pennsylvania, began bouncing around Twitter. It showed Muth, who is thirty-five, reading an impassioned and thoughtful letter from John Boyd, a formerly homeless man who was concerned about the pending eradication of a cash-assistance program for the poor. For more than three minutes, Muth was hollered over by the state Republican Majority Leader, Jake Corman, and a cabal of his male supporters, who believed that Lieutenant Governor John Fetterman, a Democrat, was thwarting the rules of order by allowing Muth to speak in that moment. (He was.) Corman stabbed the air with his finger and pounded on his lectern. “Go to the vote like you’re supposed to!” he screamed. The volume and pitch of his voice, now shredded with rage, was terrifying. The dynamic of the exchange—his outsized enmity, her calmness in the face of a tantrum—seemed to encapsulate something troubling about gender relations in American politics. Muth held steady. Her composure earned her accolades: “Keep persisting,” Elizabeth Warren tweeted. Senator Muth “won’t be silenced from speaking truth,” Kamala Harris wrote."


First paragraph of the article. I'll just leave it to the commentariat to read that and count the evidence free characterizations. but "yelling." Oh hell, I'll give it a try. "Impassioned and thoughtful letter" but no quotes from same showing it's passion and thoughtfulness. "Hollered over" if you're Republican, perhaps "objected to" if you're a D? A male cabal. "(He was)" an admission he was correct? "stabbed … and pounded" "He Screamed." "...shreaded with rage ...terrifying." Oh hell, but of course, the article treats "yelling" dispassionately.

Joe said...

"Furiously expressing anger has led to far more maimings and killings than it has prevented."

You just made that up.

John Althouse Cohen said...

I often get accused of yelling when I haven't even raised my voice.

Yeah, I've been told I'm "yelling" by someone who's talking in a loud and hostile way, while I'm speaking calmly and at a normal volume. It says nothing about you and everything about the person who makes the accusation. When someone doesn't like what you're saying, they may find it easier to attack you for how you're saying it.

Meade said...

“I often get accused of yelling when I haven't even raised my voice.”

Does it create problems in your personal or professional relationships? By “often” do you mean regularly, or do you mean twice over the last, say, 30 years? How many distinct individuals have falsely accused you of yelling at them in an angry aggressive manner when you haven’t even been angry? Or is it always the same false accuser? If it’s always the same false accuser, the behavioral problem is probably his. If you are often falsely accused by 3 or more distinct false accusers, you might want to consider that the problem just might be you.

Meade said...

walks into crowded theater: "FI--"
Shhhhhh!
"Oh, sorry-- "fire"
————————-/
LOL!
Sorry— “lol”

stlcdr said...

Is it yelling that’s the problem (which, to reiterate, is not an acceptable form of expression, but sometimes it demands it) or the ability to handle the situation where someone is yelling?

Bruce Hayden said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Bruce Hayden said...

"Yelling is powerful precisely because it is not acceptable, and therefore rare. Like profanity, it's power comes from its taboo status. Do it all the time and you're just annoying."

A success story. I told my kid growing up that I wouldn't raise my voice with them unless it was a safety issue. At roughly the age of 16 or so we were going through the Anerican rite of student driving (seems, of all their parents, I had the most patience in this area). They pulled partway across the oncoming traffic lane while turning leftish, and stopped. Cars were approaching from the opposite direction at maybe 40 or so. I yelled "go". They did, and we both survived the day without a scratch.

But then, I was helping grandparent two boys of that age last week, and for net hat my patience was not that great anymore. We were trying to catch the plane, my arms were full, and they would just look at me stupidily. I did raise my voice a couple times with them being brain dead. Loved having them visit. But it was exhausting, esp since they seemed incapable of normal hours.

“I often get accused of yelling when I haven't even raised my voice."

I am not nearly as patient with my intimate partners, as I was my kid. I remember my ex wife claiming that I yelled her while we were married, as we were negotiating our divorce. What? I didn't think that I had done so. But what was a little bit of volume for me, was yelling to her. My partner thinks that I snap and need help. Maybe Lithium, or some such, because I am, apparently, bipolar. I chalk it off to male menopause. It inevitably involves her getting me doing several things at once for her, and then asking me to do something else. Now. I do not multitask at all well. She knows that. We established that almost 20 years ago when our relationship was young, when I was driving, we were talking, and she turned on the radio for her music. My music was fine in the background, but not hers. She didn't think that was fair. I suggested that she might drive instead. Nope. That was my job as The Man (she is a proud nonfeminist). Over the intervening years, I would occasionally catch her mentally loading up my brain with different tasks, just to see me melt down. Mostly when she was really bored. With another woman, I might suspect inadvertence. Not she. Advertence, with maybe a bit of malice a forethought. But we are now in our dotage, of sorts, and I don't think she does it intentionally any more. Just that she is what my mother called a "nowser" (Now Sir), expecting instant obedience, even when I am already in the midst of multitasking.

That was a long way of saying that I do raise my voice a little with her, and others, when frustrated, and esp when forced to multitask.

But what I told both of these women is that I have never yelled at them. They have never heard my full volume. Not really that close. But I will also admit that the normal volume of my voice maybe is increasing, as my hearing slowly degrades as I age. This coming year, I have vowed to consider taking under advisement the possibility of seeing an audiologist for that alleged issue. We shall see.

Both my partner and my kid are Cancers, who supposedly get disconcerted and out of equilibrium when yelled at. Fine. I will try. But as to my partner, she needs to take into consideration her part in my frustration that is exhibited, at times, by my raised voice. Today is going to be hell for both of us, with a couple hours of sleep only for her, thanks to the cat biting her in the middle of the night, having not been fed, and both of us too tired from traveling to have to have taken proper care of him, who was also tired, hungry, and thirsty, from our flight yesterday. I will try very hard not to raise my voice today. But I can't promise that I will be successful.

Jack Klompus said...

This author obviously hasn't been on public transportation in Philadelphia after the public schools let out.

Narr said...

"Yelling" definitely is a gendered concept. Any time I raise my voice at my wife, or my late mother, they react by accusing me of yelling. (Like someone else reported above, they've rarely heard any REAL yelling from me. Only a select few in the world have.)

I try to look at it the way I do the music volume issue. What I call "audible" she calls "too loud."

Narr
Never the twain . . .

SGT Ted said...

Yelling: Men using a stern tone while contradicting women and their soybois.

SGT Ted said...

The "yelling, omg" is simply a female power play designed to garner sympathy.

Narr said...

Oh yeah, my wife, the poor dear, has tinnitus in one ear and can't hear well with the other.

So I HAVE TO YELL/SHOUT/BELLOW quite often, especially before her hearing aid is in.

Here's the worst part--my hearing is superb, and she can still talk and talk and talk.

Narr
Cruel world!

MBunge said...

"If I were ever to yell aggressively in anger at anyone..."


It's good to know if you ever see me beating by wife, you'll ask me to stop in a calm and respectful tone.

Mike

Meade said...

Yeah well first, in as calm and respectful a tone as I could garner, I would ask law enforcement to stop you from beating your wife.
My tax dollars at work.

But if that doesn’t work, well, sure, I’ll probably just have to calmly and respectfully kill you with my own bare hands.

Larry

Meade said...

And if I catch you beating MY wife, I’d most likely skip step#1.

Good to know?

Meade said...

One more piece of advice— try not to angrily aggressively yell at my wife (or mother or sister or daughter). If I catch you, I could misunderstand, think you’re abusing her when, in your opinion, you’re barely even raising your voice.