June 1, 2019

"The rape allegedly occurred in King’s presence; the FBI document claims King 'looked on, laughed and offered advice' to the preacher."

"Mr. Garrow said neither he nor the FBI could be sure who that woman was, though he continues to try to identify her. He notes that there is no evidence in the documents he has seen that FBI agents who were apparently listening in when the alleged rape occurred tried to stop the attack. As someone who admired King, Mr. Garrow said it brought him no pleasure to reveal what he found about King hidden among 54,000 digital files concerning President John Kennedy’s assassination that the National Archives dumped onto its web page over the past two years. 'But I felt a professional obligation to say... Hey folks, we are probably going to have documented evidence that’s not pleasant about King in 2027.'"

From "Former Pitt professor reassessing view of MLK after he uncovers new FBI documents/Historian David Garrow won 1986 Pulitzer Prize for biography on King" (Pittsburgh Post-Gazette).

154 comments:

Gahrie said...

By 2027 they'll be calling MLKjr an Uncle Tom anyway.

Meade said...

Now reassess Bill and Hillary Clinton.

Rob said...

We'll still have his birthday as a holiday, we may just have to rename it to honor all who fought for civil rights.

YoungHegelian said...

Although I certainly can't remember my sources now, I have known since my teen years that MLK was a sexual lecher, after the manner of JFK. Did I known about him being a willing spectator to rape? No. But, I had heard about rumors of orgies & a continual parade of extra-marital lovers throughout his career.

Interestingly enough, I remember a National Lampoon satire of the "historic" meeting between MLK & Thurgood Marshall which goes something along the lines of

TM (thumbing through a law textbook): "Lessee here, Martin, iz you the rapist or the rapee?"

Yes, it's all from 1970's memories, so it may not be accurate & yes, it's 1970's Lampoon, so it never shied away from racist humor. But, it also seems to imply that MLK's rumored sex life implies accusations of rape.

mockturtle said...

Arizona does not observe MLK's birthday.

ALP said...

I read about this in the UK's Guardian a few days ago. Immediately made a batch of popcorn to sit back and watch the fallout. I mean, how can we have an entire 24 hour *holiday* honoring a rapist enabler? If Louis CK, who only insisted women watch him jerk off, was nearly erased from our minds and the media...

Either MLK gets the same treatment or we observe some spectacular pretzel logic in an attempt to exempt him. Either way...butter up that popcorn!

Amadeus 48 said...

Anyone who thinks this is going to go down well in the black community is kidding themselves. This will be seen as another attack on the status and dignity of black people. The idea that this is like JFK or Bill Clinton or Robert E. Lee or Christopher Columbus will be rejected out of hand. This will be seen as an insult to black Americans.

Hold on to your hats.

Since everything is about Trump these days, it will be interesting to see how Trump plays it. I predict Trump will denounce Garrow.

rhhardin said...

The #MeToo fashion collides with the #Sainthood fashion. What are liberals to do.

It's deeply unalarming, well within the limits of normal celebrity behavior. Don't forget groupies.

rhhardin said...

King's legacy was lost in favor of Icon-hood long ago in any case. The color of skin rules today.

William said...

I saw the story on Drudge. It didn't get much play elsewhere. I can see why. One wrong joke or even nuance about this story in public, and your career is over. Best to just ignore it.....On the other hand, the way the media ignores it just feels into the perception that they are biased......I predict no big rush to find MLK's daughter and find out her back story.

mockturtle said...

The #MeToo fashion collides with the #Sainthood fashion. What are liberals to do.

They don't know which way to tsk. [Althouse]

rhhardin said...

as another attack on the status and dignity of black people.

The only source of dignity is doing something for somebody else. The only source of dignity for your race is for your race to do something for another race.

Blacks taking a collection for poor whites would change everything in blacks' self-conception.

Whites aren't withholding dignity from blacks. Blacks are withholding dignity from themselves.

King got around to it indirectly as color doesn't count.

rhhardin said...

Elementary schools will change their names back to Jackson.

mockturtle said...

Since we're in an iconoclastic mood, let's do a full expose on the Kennedys.

rhhardin said...

Martin Luther King fertility clinics will open.

rhhardin said...

Women need reparations, like the Korean comfort women now seizing Japanese corporate assets.

William said...

On the other hand. Ted Kennedy was able to commit--at the very least--criminally negligent homicide and walk away with his reputation intact. JFK and Ted Kennedy never had a posthumous #me too moment. Maybe MLK will be able to skate. MLK never made any crude yearbook jokes, and that's the proper measure of a man when it comes to sexual musdeeds.

Fabi said...

When you're a reverend they let you do it.

Fernandistein said...

Rapper without a song.

William said...

Well,at least we're able to make jokes about Kavanaugh and the Kennedys. You will not live to hear a joke made about MLK's sex life by a late nite comic.

Kathryn51 said...

And thus the #MeToo movement - a movement driven primarily by white, elite women - slowly fades away as all such movements eventually do. From the very beginning, there were few voices "of color" on this bandwagon. Men - of all colors and creeds (and their wives, sisters, mothers) - know all about women who make false or overwrought accusations.

Now that the current purge comes to an end, it will be on to the next Cultural Revolution where guilt is assumed and innocence must be proved.

Donald Douglas said...

David J. Garrow wrote "Bearing the Cross: Martin Luther King Jr. and the Southern Christian Leadership Conference" (1986), a fantastic biography of MLK, which I read back in the day. It's significant that Garrow's now coming out foursquare on this issue, because he's very sympathetic to King, as of course any historian would be. MLK had many known flaws, including womanizing, but these rape/witness allegations are scorching.

Narr said...

Recall what happened to Ralph Abernathy after he recounted what anyone with a brain and a smidgen of knowledge about MLK's private life already knew?

Philandering is one thing, especially in (I want to be delicate) men of the cloth in a time and place when being a pastor meant a lot of temptation (comforting widows, or not, and fending off, or not, the little temptresses) . . . add that he lived under credible and continuous threat of death for at least 15 years, and I'm not too bothered by his splooge splurges.

Accessory to outright rape? I haven't seen/heard the evidence yet, but will I be shocked?
Probably not.

Narr
Sin, it's everywhere

Rory said...

"I predict Trump will denounce Garrow."

Maybe demand that all of the files be made public.

Big Mike said...

Since everything is about Trump these days, it will be interesting to see how Trump plays it. I predict Trump will denounce Garrow.

Bad move. If Trump gets involved at all he will make it about the FBI, mutual enemies and all that.

Mark said...

The FBI having fake news in its files with respect to its political enemies did not start with Trump.

Mary Beth (the commenter) said...

I hope that this will help people accept that a person can both do great things and bad things. We don't need to pull down statues or try to erase them from history just because they are more complex than the 2-dimensional heroes we want.

I hope...but I'm not counting on it happening.

Bay Area Guy said...

MLK did some great things, the sex/adultery/rape stuff is messy and ugly, but let's put that aside for the moment.

The major problem for MLK was a Commie agent, named Stanley Levenson. King was warned about him, asked to disassociate with him, but instead allowed Levenson to into his inner circle to write/edit his speeches.

Not good. Levenson was rotten.

Mark said...

"Today who believes anything in the WaPo or NYT?"

Today who believes anything from the FBI? Whether from alleged recent events or from the time of J. Edgar Hoover and Bobby Kennedy and their notorious practice of spying on Americans?

Mark said...

You know, Trump had Russian hookers peeing on beds.

No. I'm not going to give any of this the time of day. Whether it is outright disinformation or simply the fruit of tyrannical government spying on its citizens, I'm not interested.

dreams said...

I remember reading the news about the FBI sex tapes of King back in the early seventies and showing it to some of my co-workers.

Amadeus 48 said...

Garrow wrote a great book about Obama. He actually interviewed people. You get a complete picture of the man. Garrow concluded that BHO put so much effort into creating his persona there was nothing left inside.

richlb said...

Maybe we will be able to enjoy Bill Cosby again.

William said...

Trotsky 's wife used to arrange to be discreetly out of the house when he had his designations with Frida. Lenin's wife did her one better. She arranged and encouraged one of her circle to be Lenin's mistress. I'm sure both women felt that these few moments of release helped to relieve some of the burdens these great men labored under, and they were unwilling to let any petty jealousy interfere with the great cause that their man embodied.

DimWhit said...

Can we not let the dead rest in peace?
Same story with Michael Jackson. Time
to deal with any issues was while they
were alive....

madAsHell said...

New FBI documents!?!?

If you don't like these, I've got others!!

stephen cooper said...

I don't like bullies, and if this is true, I want the statues to come down not tomorrow but today.

RK said...

Whoa, that's a lot of streets and schools to rename.

Narayanan said...

Calling our hostess to the white courtesy phone .

WaPo op-ed on January 21, 2019 ...

The uncanny similarities between President Trump and Martin Luther King Jr.

AZ Bob said...

Far worse is that the FBI watched and did nothing to stop a rape. FBI surveillance, i.e. spying, is for the purpose of maintaining its political leverage. J. Edgar Hoover established the principal. Comey was doing the same thing.

mockturtle said...

Trotsky 's wife used to arrange to be discreetly out of the house when he had his designations with Frida. Lenin's wife did her one better. She arranged and encouraged one of her circle to be Lenin's mistress. I'm sure both women felt that these few moments of release helped to relieve some of the burdens these great men labored under, and they were unwilling to let any petty jealousy interfere with the great cause that their man embodied.

William, I hope your tongue was in your cheek when you wrote this. If not, then your head must have been up your ass.

langford peel said...

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!

Narayanan said...

What were MLK view on abortion and possible children from such his dalliances?

Narayanan said...

On the rape incident... Could it have been sloppy seconds?

rcocean said...

So MLK, thought he could he "grab 'em by the Pussy" and more.

Personally, I'm in favor of celebrating Great men for what they did in public and letting their private lives slide, but if we're going to pull statues of Lee because he owned slaves, maybe a few MLK statues need to be pulled down for being a rapey rapey kinda guy.

MLK also surrounded himself with known communists, which was another reason JFK and RFK had King bugged by the FBI.

rcocean said...

Trump should declassify the tapes. Its been 50 years. Why wait another 8?

rcocean said...

Trotsky got assassinated in 1940, and his sister sent to the Gulag. I always love a happy ending.

rcocean said...

"Far worse is that the FBI watched and did nothing to stop a rape. FBI surveillance, i.e. spying, is for the purpose of maintaining its political leverage. J. Edgar Hoover established the principal."

Complete Bullshit. Surveillance of King approved by RFK - attorney General and JFK. In fact, Jackie O had heard the tapes or gotten summaries of the surveillance, which is one reason she was NOT a MLK fan.

FBI didn't stop the rape because they were not in a room next door. And they had no authority to arrest average citizens for non-federal crimes. Plus, how were they to make a arrest stick? They were secretly wiretapping a civil rights leader! How could that be introduced in court?

John henry said...

"spirit's spirit and it doesn't matter how you get it into them"

I think I am remembering this from the Oklahoma preacher In grapes of wrath.

Explaining why there is nothing wrong with philandering with a congregant

John Henry

John henry said...

I don't think the fbi is trustworthy on this or anything else.

They were born untrustworthy 100 years ago.

John Henry

Jupiter said...

But was it rape-rape?

narciso said...

Garrow most recently wrote that war and peace length Obama bio, where he assembled every scrap of paper until 1989, or so, he also makes much of an fbi review that says king was not under communist influences with oneal and levinson,

Unknown said...

FBI didn't stop the rape because they were not in a room next door. And they had no authority to arrest average citizens for non-federal crimes. Plus, how were they to make a arrest stick? They were secretly wiretapping a civil rights leader! How could that be introduced in court?

Wouldn't it have been a Mann Act violation? I think state lines were crossed.

Unknown said...

Possibly kidnapping as well..

Paul said...

Liberals will just ignore the facts... cause liberals, like artist, are different from you and me and cannot be judged by the same standards!

Fernandistein said...

It's truly a shame when such a famous horror-story author is brought so low, even if only in memory.

rcocean said...

"Wouldn't it have been a Mann Act violation? I think state lines were crossed.

Who crossed state lines? You're just making up shit. How would the FBI agents know from listening to a survaillance wiretap in REAL TIME that the woman "Crossed state lines"?

Paul said...

William said...

"Trotsky 's wife used to arrange to be discreetly out of the house when he had his designations with Frida. Lenin's wife did her one better. She arranged and encouraged one of her circle to be Lenin's mistress. I'm sure both women felt that these few moments of release helped to relieve some of the burdens these great men labored under, and they were unwilling to let any petty jealousy interfere with the great cause that their man embodied."

True William. Having all those mass executions by the Cheka must have been so taxing.

rcocean said...

Unknown = Troll. You can tell by the name.

Sebastian said...

Sure, rape is bad. Worse than "Dr." King's plagiarism?

Anyway, if you are a black minister and "civil rights leader," not only do they let you do more than grab them by the pussy, they give you a holiday as a reward.

walter said...

Good news for Fairfax?
FWIW, the referenced article by Garrow:
The troubling legacy of Martin Luther King

Unknown said...

"Wouldn't it have been a Mann Act violation? I think state lines were crossed.

Who crossed state lines? You're just making up shit. How would the FBI agents know from listening to a survaillance wiretap in REAL TIME that the woman "Crossed state lines"?


I think it is clear enough from the text:

Welch had ascertained that King and his party would be staying at the historic Willard Hotel, on Pennsylvania Avenue just east of the White House, and Welch introduced Bergeron to a Willard manager who arranged for Bergeron to “survey” the rooms in question. Bergeron then “placed a transmitter in each of two lamps and then through the hotel contact, it was arranged to have the housekeeper change the lamps in two rooms which had been set aside for King and his party”. In two other nearby rooms Bergeron and fellow Special Agent William D. Campbell set up “radio receivers and tape recorders” prior to when King and his friends first checked in on January 5. Staying in one of the two targeted rooms was King’s friend Logan Kearse, the pastor of Baltimore’s Cornerstone Baptist Church and, like King, the holder of a PhD from the Boston University School of Theology. Kearse “had brought to Washington several women ‘parishioners’ of his church”, a newly-released summary document from Sullivan’s personal file on King relates, and Kearse invited King and his friends to come and meet the women. “The group met in his room and discussed which women among the parishioners would be suitable for natural or unnatural sex acts. When one of the women protested that she did not approve of this, the Baptist minister immediately and forcibly raped her,” the typed summary states, parenthetically citing a specific FBI document (100-3-116-762) as its source. “King looked on, laughed and offered advice,” Sullivan or one of his deputies then added in handwriting.

So, the hotel was in DC, and the pastor and his parishioner were from Baltimore.

Jupiter said...

rcocean said...

"FBI didn't stop the rape because they were not in a room next door."

Well, actually, it appears they were in a room next door. At the Willard Hotel. This was a bug, not a wiretap.

walter said...

They failed to mention the dress she was wearing.

Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...

"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Romans 3:23

"If you, LORD, kept a record of sins, LORD, who could stand?" Psalm 130:3

is someone like Mother Theresa 'safe' ?
is there a longing in the human psyche for a sinless champion?

Lucien said...

How can rape survivors (or, really, any woman)feel safe on any of our nation's thousands of MLK Blvds.? They may be triggered by the street signs (even on cross-streets), impairing their driving. Those streets must be re-named now, to avoid a public health crisis.

The Vault Dweller said...

I remember watching a Tavis Smiley interview a few years ago. I think he had written a book about MLK. And the main thing about the book he continued to stress was that society shouldn't view MLK as some kind of Saint or perfect human being. It seemed sensible back then, but it makes me wonder what Tavis knew about MLK. Every human has flaws some of them are quite large. It doesn't mean if they do something great they shouldn't be remembered for what they did. Maybe, this case will help convince the reactionary left, of the prudence of not tearing down monuments to great people even when they may have done some bad things.

William said...

Daniel Ortega's step-daughter, unlike the wives of Lenin and Trotsky, was not loyal to the great man and the cause he embodied. She complained that he repeatedly raped her when she was twelve years old. The great man explained to her that this was the only pleasure he derived in his care worn existence. But she went public anyway and later betrayed the Great man's trust and affection. This story might have had an unhappy ending, but fortunately the people of Nicaragua were able to look beyond this momentary lapse and Daniel Ortega remains the leader of that great nation. It's important to keep these things in perspective.

rcocean said...

"So, the hotel was in DC, and the pastor and his parishioner were from Baltimore."

DC is not a state. And not covered by the Mann Act. In any case, since the FBI agents only knew of the rape because of a FBI bug/wiretap, it would have been impossible for any arrest to hold up in court.

rcocean said...

Oh God, now we have liberals quoting the bible to defend MLK. LOL!

When I hear a Liberal quoting the bible to defend J. Edgar Hoover or Robert E. Lee - I'll take it seriously.

walter said...

I miss Comey's bible quotations.

William said...

There must be dozens of women still alive with horrendous stories to tell about JFK, MLK, and Bill Clinton. I'm fairly confident that I will go to my grave without ever hearing them. They're like Bill Cosby before he committed the unpardonable sin of criticizing the fashion choices of young black men. After that he lost his herd immunity and dozens of women came forward. Perhaps if it can be shown that MLK was opposed to abortion then some women will find the courage needed to come forward with their stories.

BamaBadgOR said...

It is unfortunate how MLK's possible "Me Too" retrospective might play out in inner city schools where many fathers are absent and MLK is the leading role model.

Ken B said...

I decide things on evidence. This isn’t evidence really, an FBI agent's characterization of a tape we are not allowed to hear. “Trust me” won’t cut it as far as I am concerned.

Unknown said...

I am not naive enough to think that Hoover's G-Men would break cover in 1964 to help a black woman, but they could have and should have. If it didn't hold up in court, so what? You got the woman out of the room -- that's something.

The Godfather said...

I hope the rape stuff isn't true. We've known for decades that MLK committed adultery, and many of us can accept that without condemning his legacy, but facilitating rape is obviously much worse. We've also known for a long time that J. Edgar Hoover misused his powers as head of the FBI to promote his agenda. We have some reason to think that such abuse of power by the FBI has gone on more recently.

Why do we assume that what's leaked is true?

exiledonmainstreet, green-eyed devil said...

Lucien said...
How can rape survivors (or, really, any woman)feel safe on any of our nation's thousands of MLK Blvds.?

I forget which comedian noted that when you find yourself on a street named after MLK in almost any American city, you do not feel safe.

Yancey Ward said...

This being the FBI, I will demand the actual tapes with detailed voice analysis before I believe it. I trust Garrow, but he hasn't heard the evidence as far as I can tell.

stever said...

Bill Cosby was unavailable for comment.

Bilwick said...

Re "liberals" quoting the Bible, check which translation they're using. Most prefer the one where one of the Ten Commandments instructs the faithful, "Thou SHALT covet thy neighbor's goods!"

walter said...

Hmm..
"On January 31, 1977, US District Judge John Lewis Smith signed an extraordinary court order requiring the Federal Bureau of Investigation to surrender all the fruits of its extensive electronic surveillance of Martin Luther King, Jr to the National Archives. “Said tapes and documents,” Smith instructed, shall be “maintained by the Archivist of the United States under seal for a period of fifty years,” or until January 31, 2027."

Unknown said...

Just for the record, the Mann Act clearly covers DC:

SEC. 2. That any person who shall knowingly transport or cause to be transported, or aid or assist in obtaining transportation for, or in transporting, in interstate or foreign commerce, or in any Territory or in the District of Columbia, any woman or girl for the purpose of prostitution or debauchery, or for any other immoral purpose, or with the intent and purpose to induce, entice, or compel such woman or girl to become a prostitute or to give herself up to debauchery, or to engage in any other immoral practice; or who shall knowingly procure or obtain, or cause to be procured or obtained, or aid or assist in procuring or obtaining, any ticket or tickets, or any form of transportation or evidence of the right thereto, to be used by any woman or girl in interstate or foreign commerce, or in any Territory or the District of Columbia, in going to any place for the purpose of prostitution or debauchery, or for any other immoral purpose, or with the intent or purpose on the part of such person to induce, entice, or compel her to give herself up to the practice of prostitution, or to give herself up to the practice of debauchery, or any other immoral practice, whereby any such woman or girl shall be transported in interstate or foreign commerce, or in any Territory or the District of Columbia, shall be deemed guilty of a felony, and upon conviction thereof shall be punished by a fine not exceeding five thousand dollars, or by imprisonment of not more than five years, or by both such fine and imprisonment, in the discretion of the court.

walter said...

"When J. Edgar Hoover died in 1972, his secretary Helen Gandy destroyed the FBI’s “Personal and Confidential” files on public officials and celebrities. At the same time, according to Athan Theoharis’ “The FBI: A Comprehensive Reference Guide,” Acting Director Mark Felt incorporated the Bureau’s “Official and Confidential” files into the FBI’s central records system, subject to the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) requests. Files on King’s private life were placed in this latter set of records rather than destroyed, and some were transferred to the National Archives in 2005.
Litigation by Bernard Lee from King’s Southern Christian Leadership Conference sought to compel destruction of the recordings and transcripts. But the judge in the case, John Lewis Smith Jr., rejected the request, and instead ordered them sealed for 50 years until 2027."
LINK

Bay Area Guy said...

Well, King might've had a good sense of humor:

From the Garrow piece:

William Sullivan, assistant director of the FBI, wrote in the 1964 memo that King joked to his friends “he had started the ‘International Association for the Advancement of Pussy-Eaters’.”

Consensual and non-adulterous, of course.

Earnest Prole said...

I trust the FBI as far as I can throw a piano.

walter said...

"At the Willard Hotel, King and his friends’ activities resumed the following evening as approximately 12 individuals “participated in a sex orgy” which the prudish Sullivan felt included “acts of degeneracy and depravity . . . When one of the women shied away from engaging in an unnatural act, King and several of the men discussed how she was to be taught and initiated in this respect. King told her that to perform such an act would ‘help your soul’.” Sometime later, in language that would reflect just how narrow Sullivan’s mindset was, “King announced that he preferred to perform unnatural acts on women and that he had started the ‘International Association for the Advancement of Pussy Eaters’.

Jupiter said...

Unknown said...
"I am not naive enough to think that Hoover's G-Men would break cover in 1964 to help a black woman, but they could have and should have. If it didn't hold up in court, so what? You got the woman out of the room -- that's something."

I kind of wonder how those virtuous churchwomen found themselves in a hotel room in a town they didn't live in, with two men they weren't married to, back in the 60's. Maybe they wanted to be in that room with those men, for some reason. Prayer, likely. No chapel was available.

walter said...

Yes, and that dress.

Gahrie said...

Why do we assume that what's leaked is true?

Because it goes against interests of the guy who leaked it. He doesn't want it to be true.

traditionalguy said...

Rest and recreation in wartime. Martin had his comfort women.

But what that man accomplished for black American citizens remains a monumental success. His leadership won the war.

gadfly said...

This is really old news. Check out the news in the Jan 19, 1998 edition of Newsweek

January 6, 1964, was a long day for Martin Luther King Jr. He spent the morning seated in the reserved section of the Supreme Court, listening as lawyers argued New York Times Co. v. Sullivan, a landmark case rising out of King's crusade against segregation in Alabama. The minister was something of an honored guest: Justice Arthur Goldberg quietly sent down a copy of Kings account of the Montgomery bus boycott, "Stride Toward Freedom," asking for an autograph. That night King retired to his room at the Willard Hotel. There FBI bugs reportedly picked up 14 hours of party chatter, the clinking of glasses and the sounds of illicit sex--including King's cries of "I'm f--ing for God" and "I'm not a Negro tonight!"

NorthOfTheOneOhOne said...

Big Mike said...

Bad move. If Trump gets involved at all he will make it about the FBI, mutual enemies and all that.

Fox is reporting today that the FBI didn't mention that Flynn and Papadopoulos were under investigation when it briefed the Trump campaign on security matters. Trump doesn't need MLK to have a reason to start a fight with the FBI.

DanTheMan said...

I believe Mark Furhman planted the tape.

Lydia said...

We seem to be forgetting just how much hatred there was toward MLK back then. And the open, ugly talk about the inferiority of blacks in general. I would not expect all of Hoover's FBI agents to be immune from that sort of sentiment.

Henry said...

What Lydia and The Godfather said.

Recording? Or document?

Fen said...

But what that man accomplished for black American citizens remains a monumental success. His leadership won the war.

And yet his statues must come down. No Washingtons, no Jeffersons, no Lee, no MLK.

Crazy Jane said...

I admire what MLK accomplished, and I'm sorry if he was as deeply flawed in the ways described.

That said, let's remember what a miserable, power-mongering bastard J. Edgar Hoover was, collecting dirt on anyone in power. Presumably his intent was to blackmail people who he perceived did not respect/accede to his authority. We may never know how many people/politicians he cowed into abandoning their principles because of the files he employed as threats.

Until a few years ago, I believed that Hoover's death had ushered in a new era at the FBI. I thought institutional memory and revulsion about Hoover's legacy had caused the agency to adopt policies and practices of honesty and rectitude.

Now I'm not so sure.

Bay Area Guy said...

This is blowback from the recent, modern, leftist tactic to ignore issues and attack character.

Examples:

"I don't like Obama's health care plan, I think it will increase costs"

"YOU're a RACIST!"

"I'm not a fan of HIllary's tax proposals"

"YOU'RE a SEXIST!"

"I'm a huge fan of equating traditional marriage with the recent fad of same-sex marriage"

"YOU're a HOMOPHOBE!"

""I'm grateful to Washington, Jefferson and the Founding Fathers for ratifying the Constitution"

"THEY WERE SLAVEHOLDERS!"

So, in a normal world, we would focus on King's admittedly huge achievements about trying to reform the Jim Crow South -- and less on this stuff.

But times have changed with Leftist hysteria, so, we'll just have to slog along....

mockturtle said...

That said, let's remember what a miserable, power-mongering bastard J. Edgar Hoover was, collecting dirt on anyone in power. Presumably his intent was to blackmail people who he perceived did not respect/accede to his authority. We may never know how many people/politicians he cowed into abandoning their principles because of the files he employed as threats.

And didn't he like dressing up in women's clothes, or was that just a rumor?

Spiros Pappas said...

Did King David rape Bathsheba? And not a me2 rape, the real deal...

Spiros Pappas said...

The Old Testament is chock full of sexual violence. MLK would fit in perfectly.

narciso said...

Yes mockturtle rumors as solid as the dossier, from a gangster moll an ex oss veteran and one of garrisons fantasist witnesses

Michael said...

Every town in the South of any size has a MLK Street. Just all of them. The next time some SJW wants to tear down a statue in one of those Southern towns there should be a trade: Both go or neither go.

mockturtle said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
mockturtle said...

Did King David rape Bathsheba? And not a me2 rape, the real deal...

I don't think force was used. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if she intentionally bathed where he could see her. The worst of his crimes was that he sent her husband to the front to be killed. And he was. David and Bathsheba paid for it, though, when their son died in infancy.

mockturtle said...

David's son, Ammon, however, raped his sister. And was killed by his brother, Absalom.

the traveler said...

>Did King David rape Bathsheba? And not a me2 rape, the real deal...


No. IIRC David had her husband sent into a battle where he...was killed, to cover up Bathsheba's adulterous pregnancy.

Fen said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Fen said...

The next time some SJW wants to tear down a statue in one of those Southern towns there should be a trade: Both go or neither go.

That's what radicalized me.

When these rules were applied to my tribe, I moderated my reaction by thinking "okay, these are the new rules we are all abiding by". But when it came their turn to be punished under the very rules they had installed, they skated.

You may think "next time..." but I can tell you from experience that it will never turn out that way. New rules will be drafted overnight that give them a fig leaf of cover.

Remember how Godwin's Law was in vogue? Until it became convenient to label Trump and his supporters Nazis? Same thing.

How do you think I became such a radicalized cynical asshole? I was a nice boy once :)

Ray said...

"Elementary schools will change their names back to Jackson."

Jessie, Michael, or Reggie. Me, I want Reggie. Particularly the ones in Boston.

Narayanan said...

***MLK also surrounded himself with known communists, which was another reason JFK and RFK had King bugged by the FBI.***

Did they bug the Communists also? That would be the more interesting question!?

Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...

@Spiros Pappas
@theTraveler
@Mockturtle

OMG are you "liberals" using the Bible to "defend" MLK ? LOL

;-)

Francisco D said...

By 2027 they'll be calling MLKjr an Uncle Tom anyway.

I must be a lot older than you. Let's go back a little over 50 years.

The Black Power politicals were calling him that before he was assassinated.

Narayanan said...

,,,But what that man accomplished for black American citizens remains a monumental success. His leadership won the war.,,,

Would that war have been necessary or so difficult and costly in lives ? Only because of Woodrow Wilson and his racist actions?

History didn't start 15 minutes ago.

Ambrose said...

Still a great - if not perfect - man.

Spiros Pappas said...

So MLK wasn't a saint. Big deal. But was he even a Christian? He rejected the deity of Jesus, the resurrection, the virgin birth. Why did he even bother if he wasn't a true believer?

Crazy Jane said...

Look, mockturtle, I don't care if Hoover liked dressing up in women's clothes.

Jupiter, I don't "wonder how those virtuous churchwomen found themselves in a hotel room in a town they didn't live in, with two men they weren't married to, back in the 60's."

You both are projecting 2019 values back a half century or more. Those were different times. Sexual gratification was not preached by government or churches as a goal in and of itself.

If Hoover was gay and had kept it to himself, it would be irrelevant to his behavior at the FBI unless he exposed himself, so to speak, to blackmail. And black churches, to my knowledge, were the staunchest defenders of family values in the country in and through the Jim Crow era; family and religion were the only bastions African Americans could trust until well-intentioned and/or vote-seeking welfare policies replaced them with much worse.

If either man abused his appetites, let's have at it. But let's not be quick to assign any bad motives to their victims.

Mary Beth (the commenter) said...

He notes that there is no evidence in the documents he has seen that FBI agents who were apparently listening in when the alleged rape occurred tried to stop the attack.

"Listening in" could just mean recording, they may not have been actively listening at that moment. It's hard to tell from the information given.

Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...

in light of the fact that no one is perfect( basically Romans 3:23 quoted upstream)
how do we choose our heroes/role models/ our "greats"?

What if we were to learn Mother Theresa went on gluttonous binges
while championing the causes of the poor and hungry?
What if Einstein had a thing for young co-eds?
What if Caravaggio was a murderer?
Do we weigh their crimes against their benefit to humanity?
Who does the judging? How are the merits/crimes assigned/weighted?
Is it done by consensus, or by "experts"
Do we judge "on the curve"?
What is the threshold of "good" needed to offset a crime?
Do we give Micheal Jackson a pass because of his contribution to music,
but condemn a "One Hit Wonder"? Is an ample catalog exculpatory?
Should we put anyone on a pedestal literally/metaphorically?
Should we instead celebrate their positive contributions while
tacitly mindful of their human condition?










Kevin said...

Did we learn nothing from the Governor, LT. Governor and Attorney General of Virginia?

This is all terrible, unspeakable, and intolerable -- until it causes Democrats real distress.

And nothing is going to cause Democrats real distress more than using #MeToo against a dead black man who can't defend himself.

Nope, too many votes to be lost in that effort...

Slip said...

Oh bullsh*t. FBI are as corrupt as they come. They have less than zero credibility. MLK was a Socialist.

narciso said...

It more concerned some of kings associates, than king himself.

mockturtle said...

ICTA proposes: Should we instead celebrate their positive contributions while
tacitly mindful of their human condition?


The answer is yes. And amen!

mockturtle said...

I'm sure we all have skeletons in our closets. I can hear mine rattling around every so often.

Qwinn said...

J Edgar Hoover was probably the single loudest voice in his day in opposition to the Japanese internment camps.

Remember that he was a staunch anti-Communist, and as such you can consider pretty much anything bad you've heard about him to be suspect.

Not the wearing dresses thing though. That smear was positively sourced to some society wife who was pissed off at Hoover's wife.

walter said...

Well, there are alleged (pee) tapes..vs a trial tapes hidden till 2020 something. Seems like there was much maneuvering.

walter said...

(Trial = actual)

Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...

@Mock
- a thick felt liner for those closets should help.
- after your admission, we are hereby removing all statues of you.
- but what to do?-- do we celebrate Hitler for, say, his organizational skills
and keep quiet about, you know, 'that stuff he did'?

why do we, at all, look to elevate someone? To give credit where credit is due?
what if in doing so, 'the bad stuff' gets in the mix?

is there a longing in the human psyche for a sinless champion?

The Cracker Emcee Refulgent said...

Allegedly.....claims....unknown....no evidence....

I didn't realize Mueller's career went back that far. As others have intimated, try to skewer a Black icon for some unsubstantiated sexual misdeed and Black folks will not be the least bit happy about it. The Left continues to forge the nails for their coffin.

Narr said...

I'ARM@846: Could you repeat the question?

Narr
Historical cleansing, plenty for everybody

Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...

@Narr

only if you give us your brownie recipe!

Narr said...

JEH's wife? Handsome Clyde?

Narr
Thought it was illegal back in the day

Narr said...

Uhh, Narr's not here.

Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...

not the green brownies

BUT-- what about cream cheese? ever try it in brownies? Bring those, with nuts, to the Christmas party

bagoh20 said...

I can't think of any historical man known for his good works who didn't also have some skeleton hanging next to his cocktail dress. Either all great men necessarily have such faults, or we insist on making them up anyway. Personally, I'm flawless, but that's because I avoid good works. It's safer that way.

walter said...

Not all "great men" operate under a reverend status. Lord knows.

walter said...

Imagine if there were institutionally hidde tapes re Wright or Sharpton.or perpetually indignant Lewis

Francisco D said...

And didn't he like dressing up in women's clothes, or was that just a rumor?

That was an allegation by a single DC journalist. I have no idea if it was true or not, but I very strongly suspect advocacy journalism because Hoover was a dedicated anti-Communist.

Hoover was a holier-than-thou version of James Comey, but he did accomplish a few good things.

rcocean said...

Subject of Post: MLK having sex orgies and laughing while a fellow minister rapes a woman.

Distraction: J. Edgar Hoover supposedly wore a dress. And even worse - he didn't like communists!

The Left always counter-attacks.

rcocean said...

I'll repeat again. RFK ORDERED THE WIRETAP OF MARTIN LUTHER KING. Robert Kennedy was responsible NOT Hoover. Not only that, but both JFK and LJB knew of the wiretaps and approved them.

Stop talking like this was just Hoover going off on his own. IT wasn't.

narciso said...

Hoovers animating experience was the post world war one anarchist wave, kings was Jim crow as practices after Wilson, si they were destined to clash

Crazy Jane said...

"Stop talking like this was just Hoover going off on his own. IT wasn't."

OTOH, when Richard Nixon gave the IRS commissioner a list of enemies to be audited, the IRS commissioner told Nixon to go to hell.

Every once in a while we have had high apparatchiks with a sense of ethics.

My understanding is that Hoover also collected records on RFK and JFK. All this was decades before I was reading a political news or history, however, and I could have it wrong.


traditionalguy said...

MLK’s war was against Woodrow Wilson’s Segregation attack on black Americans for the crime of being escapee slaves. It was a system to re-enslave freed slaves.The 13th Amendment conveniently kept chain-gang slavery punishments for crimes like walking down the street vagrantly. The prison camps rented out the convicts for slavery work.Or they made them build roads cheaper than paying wages, only the cost of workerfood and the Camp Superintendents stole half of the food money.

MLK beat that corrupt system and got murdered for it. We can still honor him. No problem.

Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...

to the moderators-
sorry for the big empty space @8:46, it was unintentional.

If it means the Ingachuck'stoothlessARM Elementary School name has to be changed, so be it,

and may God have mercy on our souls.

walter said...

Blogger Crazy Jane said...
My understanding is that Hoover also collected records on RFK and JFK.
--
My understanding as well.

walter said...

The Rape Indifferent Academy is up for grabs.

n.n said...

It was a black power thing to exploit, perchance to rape-rape, white women at that time. Some of the men, notably one famous Black Panther, eventually discovered Christianity, repented, and reformed.

walter said...

Haven't seen indication re the race of the "parishioner" in question.

Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...

what if the person who finds a cure for cancer is a total asshole?

should everyone have an asterisk next to their name, and a footnote listing all their countervailing schmuckiness?

Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...

what if it's Harvey Weinstein?
what if, by um, "experimenting", he discovers that a mixture of semen and plant auxins
cures cancer?
A hospital wing with his name? A statue? with the inscription:
H. Weinstein, The Schmuck Who Cured Cancer?

Clyde said...

The iconoclasm will continue until there are no more icons left. Human beings are flawed, and placing them on a pedestal usually only reveals that they have feet of clay.

MikeR said...

I still think the story is unbelievable. Without the details, my default assumption is that it was not rape at all.
If it had been Hollywood I wouldn't react that way.

Craig Howard said...

Did King David rape Bathsheba? And not a me2 rape, the real deal...

David really did lead a charmed life. Even his affair with Jonathan has been swept under the Biblical rug for millennia.

Didn't fit the narrative.

Caligula said...

"MLK had many known flaws"

BUT in a time of SJW Jacobinism and #me too moral panic, the only defense is to be absolutely, totally pure and without fault.

And when accusations imply guilt and providing due process is seen as an intolerable inconvenience, even that may be insufficient.

So, bring on the guillotines. It's Year Zero; let the purifying fire do its holy work.