June 10, 2019

"The diet industry is a virus, and viruses are smart. It has survived all these decades by adapting..."

"...but it’s as dangerous as ever. In 2019, dieting presents itself as wellness and clean eating, duping modern feminists to participate under the guise of health.... The wellness industry is the diet industry, and the diet industry is a function of the patriarchal beauty standard under which women either punish themselves to become smaller or are punished for failing to comply, and the stress of this hurts our health too. I am a thin white woman, and the shame and derision I have experienced for failing to be even thinner is nothing compared with what women in less compliant bodies bear. Wellness is a largely white, privileged enterprise catering to largely white, privileged, already thin and able-bodied women, promoting exercise only they have the time to do and Tuscan kale only they have the resources to buy. Finally, wellness also contributes to the insulting cultural subtext that women cannot be trusted to make decisions when it comes to our own bodies, even when it comes to nourishing them. We must adhere to some sort of 'program' or we will go off the rails. We cannot push to eradicate the harassment, abuse and oppression of women while continuing to serve a system that demands we hurt ourselves to be more attractive and less threatening to men."

From "Smash the Wellness Industry/Why are so many smart women falling for its harmful, pseudoscientific claims?" by Jessica Knoll (NYT).

In the part of the column that I didn't quote, Knoll complains about the way the women she knows are always talking about their bodies and their diet. She wishes they'd talk about something else — something (my words) more delicious and nourishing. I don't know why it's the fault of an "industry" or of men if women are boring conversationalists. Do men blame women when they are boring each other?

155 comments:

Original Mike said...

"catering to largely white, privileged, already thin and able-bodied women, "

Gee, those interested in dieting are "already" thin. What a coincidence.

Shouting Thomas said...

Obesity destroys your joints over time, predisposes you to heart disease and diabetes and it is an aesthetic negative. Among other things.

The only diet that works is eating fewer calories than you expend in physical exertion. Anybody who offers you a different plan for a price is a scam artist.

A pretty simple subject, really, and the obesity epidemic is afflicting men and women equally, so what's the bitch here?

Michael K said...

She is one sick puppy.

Shouting Thomas said...

Do men blame women when they are boring each other?

Yes, we've been blaming you for a long time for boring us with Marxist feminist bitching.

fivewheels said...

In pieces like these, I often find that feminists are unable to distinguish the difference between women being penalized for being unattractive and women being exorbitantly over-rewarded for being attractive. I suppose it looks the same from one perspective, but from the outside, it's easier to tell which is which.

Fernandistein said...

Why does the NYT pretend to hate white people?

Fernandistein said...

Why are so many smart women falling for its harmful, pseudoscientific claims?

Why do you think your nutty friends are smart?

joshbraid said...

"The diet industry is a virus, and viruses are smart. It has survived all these decades by adapting but it’s as dangerous as ever. In 2019, dieting presents itself as wellness and clean eating, duping modern feminists to participate under the guise of health."

Hmmm, let's see
1) Women as victims--check
2) Be afraid--check
3) Usurp the medical paradigm to give my point of view credence--check
4) I know better than you modern feminists--check
5) You are being fooled and I know the truth--check

Can there be a book contract not too far in the future for this intrepid and smart (female, of course) savior of women?

cubanbob said...

The freaks and geeks and Lefty insane market must be rather large to support so much of the media.

Sebastian said...

"the diet industry is a function of the patriarchal beauty standard"

No: most women diet to get and feel healthier.

"the shame and derision I have experienced for failing to be even thinner"

I call BS.

"Wellness is a largely white, privileged enterprise"

Except that Oprah is a major figure in "WW."

"wellness also contributes to the insulting cultural subtext that women cannot be trusted to make decisions"

Actually, it is feminists gender-baiting women into blaming men for stuff progs dislike, denying women their actual autonomy, that contributes insulting cultural subtexts.

@Althouse: "Do men blame women when they are boring each other?"

Umm, no. But then, we aren't special.

MikeD said...

Now, for the other side of the story: "It’s not anti-feminist to want to look good".
https://nypost.com/2018/02/04/its-not-anti-feminist-to-want-to-look-good/

traditionalguy said...

What a stupid attitude. Anybody can be ugly. But getting young women through puberty and into late teens sometimes requires a diet support group. Losing the first 20lbs and then the second 20lbs literally turns wallflowers into stars of their peer group. Looking attractive is well worth the effort and improves acceptance at any group or employment that selects men or women.

Michael said...

Ovarian cancer is directly linked to obesity. Incidence of this disease has been on a consistent rise the past three decades....which corresponds to the increase in waistlines, especially among African-American women.

Wellness is not racist, it's just good science.

reader said...

My college roommate ended up in the hospital after being on Fen-Phen. Her weight always went up and down. She would exercise, starve, and lose weight. The she would get too busy to exercise or just get hungry and the weight would come back. She died at 43 from heart related issues.

Lucid-Ideas said...

"Bud...don't try to understand women. Women understand women and they hate each other."

- Ted Bundy (The TV Ted, not the serial killer Ted who despite being a serial killer was still and is still likely viewed by large numbers of women as attractive and even had a child with an admirer in prison because....damn. I just fell into the 'Bud' trap.)

RK said...

promoting exercise only they have the time to do

Fat black women are soooo busy.

MayBee said...

I can agree with her that the "wellness" industry- and food science in general- seems to be full of faulty claims.
We are just recently out of the "eat more carbs!" wars- do you remember that? Now it's so chic to not eat carbs (except for fruits and veggies I guess) it's hard to remember that about 10 years ago it was heresy to say eating red meat was healthy or it was ok to eat fat.
There's the claim that salt is bad for you. Cities have actually tried regulating restaurants because of that false claim.
The idea that we need 10,000 steps a day.
The idea that we need to ban sodas because they are unhealthy.
Are we still fighting about corn syrup?

So yeah, I think she's right that a lot of "wellness" is garbage. But the point of view of her piece- that women are victims, that attractive women are less threatening to men, or that only white women are trapped in this- seems very wrong to me.
I think most men would be happy to never hear a woman discuss her diet and exercise routine with him, unless he is similarly involved in one. And speaking of that....has she just never met a man who is doing crossfire or soul cycle? Because they'll talk about exercise and diet all day.

Xmas said...

Lucid,

That was Al Bundy. I don't think Married with Children had a character named Ted on the show.

They had the actor Ted McGinley on the show though.

MayBee said...

Michael said...
Ovarian cancer is directly linked to obesity


Where did you get this information?

Birkel said...

Women and children hardest hit?
No.
Women and girls hardest hit.

Watch movies from the 1950s.
Those people were thin.

RK said...

I have a slight suspicion that there's a secret contest among a group of women: who can write the most irrational, contemptuous-of-white-males shit and still get it published in the NYT.

Geoff Matthews said...

Lucid-Ideas

Did you mean Al Bundy? That sounds like something he would say.

Captain Curt said...

The really funny thing about this is that men think the ideal build for women is substantially heavier than women think it is. I've seen a few studies over the years that put the difference at 15-20 pounds heavier. (Straight) men like curves!

So the women who are fretting because they are heavier than models (who work for gay men...) are deluded if they think that it would make them more appealing to men.

Carol said...

Gee, what about men dieting? They seem as obsessed with paleo and fasting as women are with their woo. There is a blogger who Shall Not Be Named who seems to be shooting for going a week without eating.

Guy's gonna croak if he keeps that up.

Shouting Thomas said...

I live in a very blue collar working class town now, and I go to the gym at the YMCA.

The obesity epidemic among men and women is ghastly, and it doesn't differentiate according to age.

I'm talking incredibly enormous guts and butts. It's preposterous and horrifying. A fit and attractive man or woman is rare in the gym.

A hell of a lot of people are killing themselves with eating.

NY Times writers are hipsters living within a very narrow and small culture in which people are healthy, exercise and want to be attractive for the sake of attracting a mate.

The majority of America is destroying itself with food.

Nichevo said...


Why do you think your nutty friends are smart?

6/10/19, 9:51 AM


Psst...because they're just like her

MayBee said...

Here is the page from the NIH about obesity and cancer and ovarian cancer :
https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/causes-prevention/risk/obesity/obesity-fact-sheet#q3

It says no such thing about a direct link between obesity and ovarian cancer. Perhaps you have different information. But I think it isn't great to spread disinformation about cancer when we are discussing disinformation about the wellness industry.

Ovarian cancer is horrible. The women I've known who have had it have not been obese. It's hard enough for women to know they have it, and for doctors to detect it. Don't try to make women think being thin is a way to ward it off.

MayBee said...

I also want to give a shout out to Michelle Obama, the white woman who pushed diet and exercise while in the White House. And Barack Obama, the white woman who talked about the price of arugula at Whole Foods while campaigning for president.

PM said...

The 22 scanline legal at the bottom of diet commercials invariably contradicts what the paid actors are saying.

Lucid-Ideas said...

@Xmas

Yes. Kind of telling too. Apparently Ted - though a scumbag - still 'draws more water from the well' than poor Al in my subconscious. This is unfortunate because Al, despite his being the typical TV 'doofus' dad, is actually a swell guy when you think about it.

He mimics Diogenes of Sinope while expounding stoically like Xeno. With a wife like Peg, you'd have to.

tim maguire said...

"Patriarchy" has long been an eye-rolling epithet, but this is the most blatant example I've seen of it being used to mean "Stuff I, as a woman, don't like."

Wellness is a largely white, privileged enterprise catering to largely white, privileged, already thin and able-bodied women,

So, basically, the New York Times subscription base and target of most of its advertising.

gspencer said...

Most of them are on seafood diets. They see food, and go wild.

Dave said...

Professor Ann makes a very bad modern feminist because she is not a victim.

Original Mike said...

Blogger Fernandistein said..."Why does the NYT pretend to hate white people?"

I don't think they're pretending. My question is when do white people stop reading it?

bagoh20 said...

Everytime I argue with women (mansplain) about how they are jumping through all these self-care, makeup, body altering hoops just to be more attractive to men, I get told with powerful insistence that "I do it for myself", or at the least, to impress other women, but never to impress or attract men. Except, of course, when it is time for them to attack the obsession themselves. Then it's all the fault of the patriarchy.

I would offer this advice though, and it probably applies to both men and women. Before you spend all kinds of money and time on other things to enhance your attractiveness. Get rid of the extra fat. Nothing makes as much difference as that, and doing so is not only free, it saves you money, and extends your life.

chuck said...

> threatening to men

Yeah, right. Men don't feel threatened by unattractive women, they just don't feel attracted.

sean said...

"I don't know why it's the fault of an "industry" or of men if women are boring conversationalists."

It's obviously the fault of the patriarchy. It reminds me of an old essay by Vivian Gornick, where she complained that because of sexism, the girls in her high school never talked about anything except clothes and boys. She apparently believed that the boys in a typical high school talk about Derrida and Foucault, whereas in fact they talk (obviously) about sports and girls. Which is also what grown men mostly talk about--mostly the former in polite company. I'd be amazed if Knoll would like those conversations better, but I may be underestimating her.

Of course, when people get older, both sexes mostly talk about their health. Now that is truly boring.

Fernandistein said...

I just figured out that she's talking in code about Wonder Bread®, "serving hard-working Americans since 1921".

In Era of Trump's America, bread serves people!

hawkeyedjb said...

Some day, perhaps far off in the unimaginable distant future, this woman or someone like her will discover something about her life that she is personally responsible for.

Henry said...

Finally, wellness also contributes to the insulting cultural subtext that women cannot be trusted to make decisions when it comes to our own bodies, even when it comes to nourishing them.

There's an interesting subtext in this supertext about the first amendment and commercial speech.

All advertising insinuates that people cannot be trusted to make decisions when it comes to their own selves.

The utilitarian defense of literacy generally insinuates the same point. People need to absorb information or they will be dumb.

Newspaper editorials also contribute.

Quaestor said...

Quaestor is very, very, sorry for being the source of so much insufferable tedium and ennui. His momma used to bust him the mouth for quoting Oscar Wilde.

Yancey Ward said...

Ok, let's grant her the view she espouses for purposes of argumentation- then tell me which word in this title then doesn't belong:

"Why are so many smart women falling for its harmful, pseudoscientific claims?"

Yancey Ward said...

And, the very first comment on this thread is apt- Knoll's thinking is the equivalent of being surprised that crime rates fall as incarceration rates rise.

Yancey Ward said...

"A pretty simple subject, really, and the obesity epidemic is afflicting men and women equally, so what's the bitch here?"

I think it probably because men are more immune to body shaming.

Automatic_Wing said...

You gotta love The Patriarchy, it causes everything from yuppie women tying crazy diets to lady journos writing bitchy articles about Madonna to, probably, the heartbreak of psoriasis. I feel honored to be part of something so consequential.

deepelemblues said...

Darn white people and their... *rolls D20* exercise and their... *rolls D16* TUSCAN KALE!

Yancey Ward said...

And I see Fernandistein sees the problem with "smart" before I did.

susan.h said...

"smart women"

I can't count the number of "smart" women I know who think the green new deal makes sense, or think males are "toxic" or support socialism. Anyone can make good grades in college, all you have to do is study enough (or major in something with subjective grading and play the prof right).

The Godfather said...

We have a President who is, shall we say, "heavy set", and yet he seems to have a pretty healthy self-esteem. Does this mean that men have stronger characters than women?

Narr said...

Wife has been on a diet-exercise-yoga regime for years now, and looks pretty darn good for her age, so as far as I'm concerned her obsession has paid off. (She just wants to tell me about it too often and in too much detail . . . did I mention she's a woman?)

I've shed 60 lbs since retiring, just because I started eating better and walking more (a little dumbbell work lately), but programs, regimens, and step-counting is for the birds.

BUT-- she still takes six or seven prescript drugs a day for her many complaints, and I'm down to two. I got a prescription for old-man-bladder but have never used it--so I get up to pee a few times a night.

Narr
Mr. Natural

Mary Beth (the commenter) said...

I am a thin white woman, and the shame and derision I have experienced for failing to be even thinner is nothing compared with what women in less compliant bodies bear.

Find better people to be around. Or, ignore critics when you know they're wrong.

I spent most of my life as a thin white woman and now am a not-thin-but-not-fat-either white woman. I don't remember ever being shamed for not being thinner. Either I've been associating with better people or I care less what others think. Maybe both.

Anthony said...

See, this is why I asked earlier what you meant by the NYT being "the best". It's a typical frivolous, stupid article. Yeah, it's kind of fun to talk about but otherwise it's just useless drivel.

mockturtle said...

Mary Beth beat me to it. This woman hangs with the wrong crowd.

Fernandistein said...

Psst...because they're just like her

"Smart as a virus!" as my Mom used to say.

gerry said...

Progressives advocated frontal lobotomies as the miracle sure for severe behaviors in the early-to-mid-twentieth century. That turned out to be inhumane.

They advocated eugenics as the way to a superior populace. That turned out to be monstrously inhumane.

Talk about unhealthy!

Current Progressive idealism supports gender dysphoria and obesity as new standards of beauty and truth, with gender dysphoria and pedophilia edging in as the latest civil rights causes.

What is with these people?

Nobody said...

Nothing is worse than the fact that hot men prefer thin women. Lots of regular guys are fine with a few extra pounds but who wants them?

Nobody said...

and the shame and derision I have experienced for failing to be even thinner

She is probably talking about the voices in her head.

mockturtle said...

Is it only in the age of social media that women have become obsessed with what other people think? Or have they always been that way [most of the women in my family, myself included, don't give a corpulent rodent's derriere what other people think]. What a horrible way to live!

MayBee said...

I do love this thin white woman's not at all racist view of the life of black and minority women. Always working! Poor! Fat!
Like she learned everything watching Good Times.

Nobody said...

My question is when do white people stop reading it?

It’s a humiliation fetish.

robother said...

Goddam Patriarchy . Men are about as useless as a bicycle to a fat feminist.

Bushman of the Kohlrabi said...

This woman is just facing the reality of her market. How many NYTs readers would just skip her article if she didn't toss in the usual feminist/white/patriarchy hubris? She's just giving the readers what they want.

Nobody said...

I agree that it’s the gay men the models are being so thin for. They are trying to make the women look like boys. Plus the camera adds 10 pounds, and everybody is on camera all the time now, on account of how the men invented these cheap ubiquitous devices.

chuckR said...

My wife is dieting right now. The nutritionist told her she could eat 1100 calories a day and lose weight, and further that she would lose weight whether she ate a healthy diet or 1100 calories worth of Dunkin' Donuts. Obviously, the nutritionist suggested a healthy diet and its been working for her. But no magic supplements or strategies are involved.

Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...

Viruses can cause weight loss.

Our diet plan went viral

Henry said...

Is there actual science in that op-ed or is it all connect-the-dots alarmism?

You want science, you go to the Orac

mikee said...

I, for one, could listen to Nigella Lawson talk about food all day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtS2Ikk7A9I

Nobody said...

She's just giving the readers what they want.

They like to not just drink the Kool-Aide, but savor it, swish it around in the glass to check its ‘legs,’ swirl it around the tongue. I think the reason that she is so clueless about obesity among men is that these men are invisible to her.

Gahrie said...

We cannot push to eradicate the harassment, abuse and oppression of women while continuing to serve a system that demands we hurt ourselves to be more attractive and less threatening to men."

It is demeaning and sexist to insist that women be less threatening to men, but absolutely essential that we demand that men be less threatening to women.

Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...

whether she ate a healthy diet or 1100 calories worth of Dunkin' Donuts

The famous Hostess Twinkie diet

lots of diet plans "guarantee" 20 pound losses because they know just calorie restriction will do the trick initially.
Later, the hormonal factor (like insulin) is an issue, among other factors.
the type of food matters, plus sleep, and exercise.
You cant out-train a bad diet

SGT Ted said...

Smash the Privileged White Women Complaining About Ordinary Life industry. Why do so many smart women complain about their privileged first world lifestyles that are the envy of most of the world?

mockturtle said...

Rhett Butler said it best in GWTW: "How closely women clutch the very chains that bind them!"

Narr said...

Social X-rays. Drown the lot. No, drown those who think that's the ideal of feminine beauty.

I'm no chub-chaser, but believe me a healthy woman with a few spare pounds is more attractive to me, clad or nekkid, than 99% of the emaciated waifs we're supposed to like.

Narr
I'm not talking wife-guy pounds, now

Ken B said...

Jill makes a choice Jane doesn’t like. Jane wants to stop Jill but does not want to see herself as dictating to Jill. She notices Jill's choice involves Jack, so she dictates to Jack and feels better.

SGT Ted said...

Althouse: "Do men blame women when they are boring each other?"

Since we're not crazy, NYT's femisexist columnists, no.

Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...

I think the reason that she is so clueless about obesity among men is that these men are invisible to her.

Invisible, or expendable ?

obese, unhealthy men. (dont interrupt your enemy when he's in the process of hurting himself)

buwaya said...

A lot of feminist complaining seems to be the equivalent of trying to invoke the sunrise - or delay the sunset - through emotional venting. Millions upon millions of years of evolution have programmed the membrum virile, and no raging will change it.

Birches said...

Maybe she needs new friends. I don't ever talk about losing weight or my body to my friends. Never have, even as a teenager. It's like the girls from Mean Girls never grew up.

Birches said...

If she left NYC, she'd see a lot of people are so focused on appearance and rail thin.

Reminds me of the social x-rays from BONFIRE OF THE VANITIES.

rcocean said...

I am a thin white woman, and the shame and derision I have experienced for failing to be even thinner is nothing compared with what women in less compliant bodies bear.

Looks like Mommy wanted her little angel to stop being a chubby chunker, and she never forgot it.

rcocean said...

Nobodies forcing you to eat that second piece of pie. Live large if you wish. Just shut up about it.

Rick said...

Some people never matured to understand modern life doesn't have the life and death threats we evolved to react to. Instead some learn to obsess over something as if it were life and death while others invent a life and death fantasy.

Christy said...

Two years ago, Weight Watchers made a big deal about changing from a Diet Program to a Health and Wellness Program, open to those without weight problems. The article seems to fall from that.

Maybee, estrogen fed cancers can be an issue in post menopausal women of size. Fat warehouses estrogen and releases it higgledy-piggledy rather than in the controlled and measured way of the no-longer-funtioning ovaries.

rcocean said...

Losing weight is simple. As Von Clausewitz noted to Mrs. Von Clausewitz:

"Everything in dieting is very simple - but the simplest thing is difficult"

buwaya said...

"Or have they always been that way"

Yes.

https://www.kci.or.jp/en/archives/digital_archives/1700s_1750s/KCI_005

RigelDog said...

My former best friend (apparently no longer speaking to me because I voted for Trump) cured me of the diet-conversation gambit. Many years ago, as I was casually mentioning a plan to diet, she discouraged me from continuing along those lines. She pointed out how essentially BORING such talk is; how women so often think and talk and obsess about how they are eating and how they need to change what they eat and it's just. so. odd. and. boring1 Scales fell from my eyes, all over the floor it was quite the mess. She's turned narrow-minded and nasty over time and that's a sorrow to me, but I am grateful for what I did learn from her during our long friendship. Not discussing diets, especially as a woman-bonding-scenario, is one of those big lessons learned.

rcocean said...

"white, privileged enterprise"
"white, privileged, already thin and able-bodied women"
"I am a thin white woman"
"less compliant bodies"
"patriarchal beauty standard"
"modern feminists"
"insulting cultural subtext"
"harassment, abuse and oppression of women"
"serve a system [that] demands we hurt ourselves to be more attractive and less threatening to men."

She wins a 10/10 for SJW jargon and Left-wing Cant. Take out all Jargon and parroted Phrases and you got "Let me eat my Waffles".

mockturtle said...

I was very thin as a child and our family doctor warned that he would put me in the hospital and feed me intravenously if I didn't eat more. It wasn't that I was anorexic but I was very active and had little interest in food. No one in my immediate family was ever fat and it's probable a genetic issue. We have athletic builds and more muscle than fat so that's a blessing. While it is sad to see so many obese people these days, it is equally sad that women, in particular, are so obsessed with their weight. Up here in Alaska I've noted that the residents tend to be a little heavier than would reap 'approval' in the lower 48 but they work hard and play hard and they probably need the extra layer of fat for the colder weather. And they seem to be extraordinarily happy.

rcocean said...

If 2019 is "modern Feminism" is 1989 or 1999 feminism now "Old-fashioned" and "out of date"?

rcocean said...

Mock: Is it Bikini weather up there?

Francisco D said...

We cannot push to eradicate the harassment, abuse and oppression of women while continuing to serve a system that demands we hurt ourselves to be more attractive and less threatening to men."

I don't get the demand part - no one cares if you are thin or not. Get over it.

I also don't get the "threat" part. I don't know any men who feel physically threatened by women, regardless of their size.

It sounds like the writer finally found a job where she can apply her graduate training in Gender Studies.

rcocean said...

The real solution is physical activity. Of course, for some that's impossible. But for most of us, the key to weight loss is vigorous, daily exercise.

If everyone was doing the daily equivalent of 10 miles of walking, you'd see fewer fatties.

Ignorance is Bliss said...

rcocean said...

Nobodies forcing you to eat that second piece of pie. Live large if you wish. Just shut up about it.

Shorter rcocean: Shut your pie-hole

Rick said...

I would offer this advice though, and it probably applies to both men and women. Before you spend all kinds of money and time on other things to enhance your attractiveness. Get rid of the extra fat. Nothing makes as much difference as that, and doing so is not only free, it saves you money, and extends your life.

I'm reminded of the best advice which would put Cosmo et al. out of business:

Show up naked, bring beer.

Lucid-Ideas said...

@Buwaya

Women once again A) blaming nature for making them women and B) believing that if they speak loud or act effusively enough they can suspend the laws of physics.

"But Doctor, the 'South Bronx parasite' diet just felt so right..."

News at 11.

hawkeyedjb said...

First World upper west side NY Times reader problems. Oy. My wife has always been a thin white woman. Now, after a year of treatment and surgeries for cancer, she is a bit thinner. It's work to eat enough to try to gain some weight. That's a real honest-to-God problem, but we can't figure out who to blame. Maybe healthy people?

Big Mike said...

Professor Ann makes a very bad modern feminist because she is not a victim.

@Dave, first of all it’s Professor Althouse. Second, she certainly is a victim — Meade makes her do cross country skiing and bicycling and walk around national parks and art museums and stuff like that. And Meade is as patriarchal as they come!

Big Mike said...

Do men blame women when they are boring each other?

It doesn’t come up. If the conversation turns boring we talk about sports. How will the Packers do this year? Why did the Nats collapse so badly? Will it be Clemson vs Alabama again for national championship?

Angle-Dyne, Samurai Buzzard said...

Same tired shite, decade after decade after decade. I want the freedom to do whatever I want, be whatever I want, look however I want, but there oughtta be a law against *you* being free to dislike or disapprove of me, or not wanting to fuck me.

50 years on, still peddling the delusion that one can dictate to others what they should find desirable. (Btw, lady, yeah, men don't prefer obesity. But it ain't white cis-het men photo-shopping all those fashion models into ludicrously skinny disproportion.)

I don't know why it's the fault of an "industry" or of men if women are boring conversationalists.

These boring ladies would probably be a lot happier if they'd just admit to themselves that they don't actually have any interest in the stuff they're always bitching about being "excluded from". (That nobody is excluding them from.) Then they could just go enjoy the company of like-minded women, instead of boring the non-like-minded.

mockturtle said...

Mock: Is it Bikini weather up there?

Not for me but I do see some locals in tank tops and shorts. Highs in the low 50's & breezy here in Valdez.

mockturtle said...

Big Mike suggests: It doesn’t come up. If the conversation turns boring we talk about sports. How will the Packers do this year? Why did the Nats collapse so badly? Will it be Clemson vs Alabama again for national championship?

I've tried that in a group of women and it usually goes over like the proverbial lead balloon. Which is one reason I usually avoid groups of women.

mockturtle said...

And the female friends I have don't tend to hang out in groups.

bagoh20 said...

I find men's conversation topics even more boring.

buwaya said...

Men’s conversation topics can be very boring indeed, but they rarely impose them on women.
Not so frequently at least, compared to the other way around.

Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...

no woman should be made to feel bad or responsible for being fat, ever.

Narr said...

I'm about as asportsual as it's possible for a Suthen boy to be, so I lack any of the easy sports gossip men default to. But guys like to hear themselves talk ALMOST as much as gals do so I can get by with nods and maybes, really?s and I don't knows . . .

I will agree with one thing I once heard Noam Chomsky say (hear me out). WTTE that anyone who listens to American men talk about football should know full well that they can understand, analyze, critique, and prescribe with an awesome amount of intelligence and subtlety, any matter they get interested in. He was right!

Narr
Too bad for his kind

Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...

if men started a "Men-only" dieting club, women would sue to get in

Sigivald said...

I just like how attacking harmful pseudoscience nonsense has to be packaged in the language of intersectional feminist theory to even be presented in the Times.

madAsHell said...

I think she used Alinsky's "Rules for Radicals" as an outline, and then filled in the details with vitriol. It's like the "The Name Game".

narciso said...

duh, the problem is they peg these diets as a single bullet but it's a very long term thing combined with an exercise regimen, if it sounds too good or simple, it probably is,

gilbar said...

hmmm a target rich evironment; let's start!


"The diet industry is a virus, and viruses are smart.


virus? you keep a using that word. I do no think that word means what you think it means

dieting!
Women, minorities; hardest hit

Do men blame women when they are boring each other?
Well, men that are boring each other don't really like women. nttiawwt

mockturtle said...

I like talking sports because it's [usually] a safe topic, like the weather used to be. Now we can't talk about the weather with anyone without treading perilously close to the ideological land mines of climate change.

John Scott said...

...patriarchal beauty standard...

I thought those standards were set by a little old lady in New York who never takes off her sunglasses. Anna, something or other.

mockturtle said...

I think beauty standards are pretty uniform within a culture. Have you ever met a woman who thinks RBG is better looking than, say, Grace Kelly?

Speaking of RBG, is she dead, or what?

Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...

The Relationship Between Waist-Hip Ratio and Fertility

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/beastly-behavior/201706/the-relationship-between-
waist-hip-ratio-and-fertility

"Nothing tastes as good as skinny feels" --K. Moss

And, as Chickelit put it:
"We wear the carbon chain we forged in life,""we made it link by link, and yard by yard; we girded it on of our own free will, and of our own free will we wear it."

please, everyone, of all genderz-- be svelte and attractive.

thank you

FullMoon said...

So, basically giving lazy fat women permission to remain that way?

dbp said...

"Why are so many smart women falling for its harmful, pseudoscientific claims?"

There are diet plans that cover the spectrum. This does not mean defacto, that some are wrong, I've seen radically different things work for different individuals. Surely some are pure BS.

The thing is, experiment and keep track of what works. Supposedly, (I believe it is so) attractive people tend to get ahead in life compared to the unattractive. There is a real chicken-egg thing going on: Do things like staying fit and completion of college make you better at work? I doubt it is the end product, though it may have some importance, maybe it is the willpower and stick-with-it-ness which BOTH keeps you fit and makes you do good work.

Just as an aside, my semi-scientific survey of coworkers indicates that either the guys are less prone to obesity or are paying more attention to diet than the women. Of 9 women, 5 are unquestionably fat, of 8 men, none are fat.

Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...

abjure thee not pulchritude--

pumpeth the iron, and stuffeth not thine visage.

mockturtle said...

So, basically giving lazy fat women permission to remain that way?

Full Moon, while I'd hate to be one, I don't think fat and lazy women need anyone's permission, least of all yours. Maybe eating is the only pleasure they know in life.

Henry said...

Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...
if men started a "Men-only" dieting club, women would sue to get in

It's called hair replacement.

Just listen to AM radio sports talk for a few days and the ads will convince you that that the patriarchy is bald, fat, and limp.

Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...

@Henry
the patriarchy is bald, fat, and limp.
We put the imp in limp !

can you explain-- we didnt get your comment

Francisco D said...

I like talking sports because it's [usually] a safe topic, like the weather used to be. Now we can't talk about the weather with anyone without treading perilously close to the ideological land mines of climate change.

Climate change was the reason we had a record cold winter in Tucson. Now it is the reason we have 100 degree plus weather for the next few months.

As a Chicagoan, It is easier to adjust to heat than cold. I loved last winter here, got to break out the flannel shirts, but not the winter coats.

Nobody said...

I agree that football can be analyzed at a very high level and intelligent men can find it interesting. Baseball is more a sport for math nerds.

Nobody said...

Baseball can be fascinating too, it's just so hard to achieve the level of familiarity with the sport to really see it.

Lucien said...

I think “social x-ray” is from “Radical Chic and Mau Mauing theFlack Catchers”, not Bonfire.

madAsHell said...

Speaking of RBG, is she dead, or what?

She can't die before impeachment. All kidding aside, habeas corpus already!!

Unknown said...

Women are to blame for the existence of the "wellness industry". Most vegetarians are women. It is easier to become overweight for women and they judge themselves harshly. Most of the ads for slimness and beauty are in women's mags. However, being fit is all kinds of great and the idea that some patriarchy is making you jog is simply BS.

Men do not feel threatened by women, period, attractive or unattractive. If anything, it is the attractive ones that make them nervous. When women claim to be able to read men's minds and motives, they are always wrong.

Francisco D said...

I think “social x-ray” is from “Radical Chic and Mau Mauing theFlack Catchers”, not Bonfire.

If I recall correctly "XRay" is from Bonfire, but I may not recall correctly.

My favorite Wolfism is "Boys with Breasts" from A Man in Full

Narr said...

I was thinking Bonfire with social x-ray but it might have been earlier--long time ago.

I'm so nerdy I could get into baseball only through stats: fascinating how a game like that can have such a variety of ways to slice and dice performance.

Cross-cultural beauty studies would be a major I'd go back to school for. In fact, working as I did on a fairly large and international campus, I considered it a bennie and a perq to work among a wide variety of fauna of many lands.

Narr
Globalization rules!

Henry said...

Go to Fangraphs.com, Narr!

h said...

replying to fivewheels, who said something like what is "the difference between women being penalized for being unattractive and women being exorbitantly over-rewarded for being attractive."

That is so right and so insightful. Women, even women who would reject the idea of "being attractive" (reject the concept intellectually, subconsciously or unconsciously) - those women "discover" that men are attracted to them because of their physical appearance. And this realization changes their unconscious or subsconscious. The women come to realize (expect) that men will approach them and desire them because of their looks. So as the women age they feel the effects of the aging much more deeply than do men of a similar age -- they are not just aging, these women, they losing the basic aspect of their character (physical beauty) that men found so attractive in younger years.

Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...

@h

"last fuckable day" ?

MayBee said...

Christy-

As you said, "can be". It is not "directly linked". They don't have a strong enough correlation yet. Unless you've got a study that shows otherwise.

Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...

The Emerging Connection between Obesity, Insulin, and Cancer
As people gain weight, their fat cells begin to pour out cytokines that generate inflammation throughout the body.

Cancers of the female reproductive system seem especially sensitive to elevated insulin levels. For example, women with higher insulin levels are at a 2- to 3-fold increased risk for breast cancer, compared to those with lower levels.19 Similarly, risk for endometrial (uterine lining) cancer rises dramatically with elevated insulin.20 Risk increases with higher insulin levels almost 10-fold for early premalignant changes in endometrial cells, 8.5-fold for later premalignant changes, 18-fold for true precancerous lesions, and a shocking 45-fold for type I endometrial cancer.21 Elevated serum insulin levels are also associated with increased risk for ovarian cancer.22

Otokozawa S, Tanaka R, Akasaka H, et al. Associations of serum isoflavone, adiponectin and insulin levels with risk for epithelial ovarian cancer: results of a case-control study. Asian Pac J Cancer Prev. 2015;16(12):4987-91.

Henry said...

To elaborate a little on my sports talk comment. Contra to Ms. Knoll at the New York Times and our own crowd of evolutionary biologists, men actually are subject to vanity, and thus to the people that sell beauty.

The three big advertising streams that support sports talk:

hair replacement
weight loss
erectile disfunction

The erection ads are interesting. In tone they oscillate between gentle encouragement and sneering contempt. In content they range from the selling of snake oil to the marketing of legitimate medical clinics.

Hair replacement and weight loss ads tend toward the testimonials, especially by the talk show hosts themselves, or second-tier retired athletes.

It's all about selling to men who want to be sexy.

Henry said...

Before Viagra, talk radio revenue was driven by a different itch. Gold Bond Medicated Powder probably supported half the overnight shows in the country. Old guys with insomnia kept the culture alive, like the Irish monks in the middle ages.

Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...

@Henry
thanks for the additional info

could there possibly be such a thing as "flaccid penis-envy"?

mockturtle said...

Some men look better bald and some women--myself among them--think bald is very sexy.

Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...

@mock
what's the morphology up there Re Alaskans?
Lean from the rugged life? porky from being shacked up all winter eating caribou?
regional differences?

n.n said...

Not adapting, Planning. In progress. Mutating. Liberalizing. Selecting the shared responsibility Persons.

mockturtle said...

ICTA asks: what's the morphology up there Re Alaskans?
Lean from the rugged life? porky from being shacked up all winter eating caribou?
regional differences?


I actually addressed this at 12:49.

Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...

@mock
ok -- missed that.

we'll go with "well-insulated" then.

walter said...

Go into pretty much any workplace and see who has "treats" at their desk.

Fen said...

Some men look better bald and some women--myself among them--think bald is very sexy.

Bruce Willis
Denzel Washington

Pair of kings.

I think they have redefined "cool"

Seeing Red said...

It’s not the patriarchy. It’s women being women.

Fen said...

It's all about selling to men who want to be sexy.

I bought her a state of the art vibrator for $200.

They have some interesting ramming machines for twice that.

That's the best thing from being a Marine - my manhood is no longer questioned. I could suck 12 cocks a day and still be more of a Man than most LOL.

Narr said...

I got plenty of hair left, and know how to lose weight, but am puzzled by the other thing.
That's for real?

Narr
Sports sponsors can't sell me anything

walter said...

Free yer mouth, yer ass will follow.

Nobody said...

or second-tier retired athletes.

Are you calling Dan Marino "second tier”? If so, you must have a lot more tiers than I do!

Henry said...

Are you calling Dan Marino "second tier”?

LOL. He's not in the Boston market, I can tell you.

Nobody said...

“You ain’t no beauty, but hey, your alright, and that’s all right with me.” - Born to Run

That’s some sensible philosophy right there.

Skippy Tisdale said...

"Fat black women are soooo busy."

I ride the 5 bus in Minneapolis which goes through the north side -- the poor part of town. The percentage and size of the obese black women is astounding. It truly is. But what's even more amazing is that guys are getting them pregnant. My goodness how can you even get it up for that?

Fen said...

the patriarchal beauty standard under which women either punish themselves to become smaller or are punished for failing to comply, and the stress of this hurts our health too. I am a thin white woman, and the shame and derision I have experienced for failing to be even thinner is nothing compared with what women in less compliant bodies bear. Wellness is a largely white, privileged enterprise catering to largely white, privileged, already thin and able-bodied women, promoting exercise only they have the time to do and Tuscan kale only they have the resources to buy.

Are you okay? You look as if you are about to faint.

Finally, wellness also contributes to the insulting cultural subtext that women cannot be trusted to make decisions when it comes to our own bodies

Well, you're certainly starting to convince me.

For instance, you know that intercourse carries a risk of pregnancy and you know that birth control is not 100% effective, yet you keep whining as if your ability to choose what to do with your own body has been taken from you.

Who decided to have sex? Were you manipulated into it by Teh Patriarchy?

When are women going to be responsible for the choices they make?

Fen said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Fen said...

And patriarchy theory is self-defeating: if women have been easily oppressed by men for the last 5,000 years in a row then they certainly aren't equal to them. You would expect Murphy to step in and steal a few wins for you, but no, not even he could help women.