June 19, 2019

"Keith Raniere, a self-help guru, has been found guilty of presiding over an ultra-secretive society that imprisoned women as sex slaves branded with his initials."

"The case established an unexpected link between an organization preaching self-empowerment and an internal, cultlike subgroup dedicated to serving the carnal – and now criminal – demands of its founder. Raniere, who claimed to be one of the smartest people in the world and boasted a devoted following, was found guilty of all counts against him, including racketeering, forced labour, sex trafficking and child abuse images charges. The jury reached their decision in less than five hours of deliberations... Only in opening statements and closing arguments did Raniere present any explanation, offering through his defense counsel that whatever had taken place was consensual. On Monday, before Judge Nicholas Garaufis handed the case to the jury, Raniere’s lawyer, Marc Agnifilo, simply described DOS as a 'social club,'  arguing that his client’s followers acted of their own volition, making 'adult choices.' 'He doesn’t need DOS to generate intimate partners,' Agnifilo said of his client. 'One has nothing to [d]o with the other. This is just his lifestyle.'"

From "Nxivm trial: Keith Raniere found guilty on all counts in sex cult case/Jury sided with prosecutors, who said Raniere used blackmail and starvation and to force women into becoming ‘first-line slaves’" (The Guardian).

172 comments:

Dad29 said...

That group included a female MD who was working in Milwaukee.

RMc said...

"Raniere, who claimed to be one of the smartest people in the world"

Not so much.

Narr said...

OK, is there a short version of who these people are and why it's of general importance?

Serious question, not a complaint. Gold star to the best synopsis!

Narr
Yes, neatness and spelling count

EDH said...

"The case established an unexpected link between an organization preaching self-empowerment and an internal, cultlike subgroup dedicated to serving the carnal – and now criminal – demands of its founder.

That was quick. I didn't even know the FBI had reopened the DNC-Clinton Campaign investigation.

Ann Althouse said...

I found it interesting because:

1. It was in federal court.

2. It raises questions of consent to sex and the capacity of women to consent.

3. The old question whether you can agree to become a slave (and what is a slave?).

4. What's a cult and why is it different from religion? When do we stand back and allow people the freedom to believe whatever they want?

5. Branding... is it so different from piercings and tattoos? Why should the federal government get involved?

I Have Misplaced My Pants said...

https://www.cbc.ca/radio/podcasts/current-affairs-information/uncover/

Althouse and others: the CBC podcast on this is great.

Narayanan said...

Was there a "fugitive slave"?
Did anyone bring up Dred Scott for precedent?

narciso said...

so the gortari and the fox scion, the Bronfman one married to a Libyan fixer, where do they fit into the picture, not to mention gillebrand pere,

Beasts of England said...

'...Raniere used blackmail and starvation and to force women into becoming ‘first-line slaves’.

Did he consider the Costanza Defense?

I Have Misplaced My Pants said...

My own opinion, after listening to the in-depth podcast and reading a bit about it, is that these women chose to get involved in this MLM bullshit themselves and only have themselves to blame. They could have walked away. They taught themselves, when their better judgement reared its head against some stupid thing they were being asked to do, to tell themselves "JUST FUCKIN DO IT! DO IT!!" What can you do when someone literally convinces herself to do things (such as allowing a doctor to brand her flesh) that she knows better than to do?

Sheridan said...

If no children were involved, if no-one had been kidnapped, if everyone could come or go as they pleased, if there were no threats issued against people who were straying from the group, if group members were not coerced to perform illegal acts that would benefit Raniere or his "club", then this issue should never have come to trial. Puritanism still lives.

mockturtle said...

I agree with Pants. Adults should be held accountable for their own [stupid] choices. And are these women not adults [no snickering, please]? I don't feel the least bit sorry for any of them.

rhhardin said...

Women fall under the child protection laws.

Bobb said...

Sen. Gillibrand's father and stepmother had ties to this group. Sen. Gillibrand associated with the group at a Hillary fundraiser.

Jupiter said...

"The trial featured testimony from four women, Sylvie, Daniela, “J” and Nicole, whose full names were withheld because they were considered victims, as well as several former members whose identities were revealed."

Wait. What? Anonymous witnesses?

John henry said...

50 shades of grey
The Beauty Trilogu
Story of O
Etc

I thought this nxivm was the kind of thing women fantasized over.

So where's the problem?

John Henry

Jupiter said...

It has already been established on Campus that a woman who has consensual sex and later regrets it has been raped. Apparently that principle is now law in NY.

Birkel said...

We must protect people from themselves, said every tyrant ever.
Deep State wants to be tyrannical.

narciso said...

the real hellfire club, yes it seems it was a rejected law and order script from the 90s,

John henry said...

To answer 2 of your questions Ann

Women seem to have a special permission to conditionally consent to sex. They can grant it the. after decide to withdraw consent. The man gets screwed twice.

The women were not "slaves" if they gave consent. At best they were larping, pretending to be slaves.

Lots of people have been going in for branding over the past 20 years. A step up from piercing or tattooing but still a fairly common body modification. Not that big a deal.

The real question would be is there a difference between paying $50 to be branded at Joe's Tattoo Emporium or having it done as part of a ritual with no money changing hands.

I am assuming consenting adults in all of the above.

John Henry

narciso said...

you want to prevent this, you're out of lucK:

http://www.startribune.com/minnesota-supreme-court-rules-stalking-mail-harrassment-laws-overly-broad-in-cyber-bully-case/511522902/

n.n said...

Weird. Their choice, right? #NoJudgment #NoLabels #SocialProgress #HateLovesAbortion

rhhardin said...

The branding might have been part of a milk the cow game. Kenneth Burke has it somewhere.

Mr. V. himself told me of a game that he and some little girls had invented when he was very young (indeed, this is among his earliest memories). The game was called "playing cow." It involved his going into a nearby field and picking daisies -- an act that stood for the cow's grazing. Then, at a signal, he was called in to be milked by the little milkmaids, who used an old tin can for this purpose. To this day, though he is now quite elderly, among the flowers Mr. V. is particularly partial to the daisy, which among other things he associates with that humble pastoral pastime so near to the innocence of his infancy.

Language as Symbolic Action, p.351


Narr said...

Cults aren't anything like Real Religions(TM)! It is known, especially to Deep State Cultists.

Tattoos, brands, shackles, and/or nine-inches of throbbing manhood up the fundament--consenting adults gonna consent.

Narr
Some good band names in this one



gilbar said...

Bobb said...
Sen. Gillibrand's father and stepmother had ties to this group. Sen. Gillibrand associated with the group at a Hillary fundraiser.


Didn't Sen Gillibrand walk around with a mattress, so that she'd always be instantly ready for coitus? Or, was that just one of her associates?

rhhardin said...

Kathleen: I love daisies.
Joe: - You told me.
Kathleen: - They're so friendly. Don't you think daisies are the friendliest flower?
Joe: I do.

You've Got Mail (1998)

narciso said...

close enough, it was mattress girl, who summoned a kangaroo court at Columbia, name escapes me,

in other news the torygraph's crush, rory stewart got kicked out of leadership

gilbar said...

4. What's a cult and why is it different from religion?

I'm not able to quote chapter or verse; but to paraphrase Robert A Heinlein:
A cult is something you join; a religion is something you're born into

{not from Heinlein} The difference between a cult and a religion is the amount of real estate

Fen said...

I thought this nxivm was the kind of thing women fantasized over.

Nah. When she lets me lock an iron collar around her neck, there is an implicit understanding that I won't lash her down on a fuck machine till she bleeds out, brand her ass with my intitials and then sell her to the captain of that Saudi Oil Freighter docked in Baltimore Harbor as a lifelong sex slave.

Or so I've been told.

LOL at 50 Shades. It was like kissing behind the library after gymclass. Soooo edgey. No one has 30 different colors of crops. Heh. They just didn't know where to go from there. "No worries just order more riding crops in rainbow colors!" Ha.

madAsHell said...

This has been a bad week for self-help gurus. It seems that Tony Robbins recently had some lurid accusations directed at him.

In a sense, a self-help guru can only attract people that need help.

J. Farmer said...

As I understand the case, Raniere coerced women into sex by threat.

gilbar said...

a self-help guru can only attract people that need help.
oh! oh! thanx, that set's me up for my favorite joke:

How many Psychiatrists does it take to change a light bulb?
Only one; but it takes a Long Time, and the light bulb has to Want to Change

Fen said...

Was it Biden or Sanders who claimed that all women fantasize about being gang raped?

Are still proud to be a Democrat?

No wonder they are virtue signaling 24/7. Like the Indulgences of Catholicism: "any future sins you desire to commit will be auto-forgiven if you do this one weird trick"

Fen said...

Raniere coerced women into sex by threat.

It's a common fantasy in the fetish community - being "forced" to do things you would be too ashamed to do voluntarily.

J. Farmer said...

@Fen:

Sure. So are rape fantasies. So what? Do you think it’s “consent” if you use blackmail to get sex from someone?

narciso said...

ah so putting so gently, this was Christian grey's cult, seriously Dakota Johnson, she's got a sequel, with an English lord and his Albanian maid, so I'm given to understand,

But I recall when tina brown raved over that exercise in sadomasochism, as if it was normal

MB said...

2. Perhaps some people do not have discernment or responsibility in the same sense in which others do. Sure, they like to proclaim their independence loudly, and take offense when challenged, but often end up as merely the tools of smarter and stronger individuals.
Or at least this is what the jury decided. Based on many hours of testimony presented by these women, it's hard to argue with their conclusion, though.
Is it merely a social convention? Is this just how our society is run? The government bought into their "he made me do it" defense, by offering plea deals to all defendants, save Raniere. But were they really all irresponsible except for him?

3. Same question about euthanasia. If you can agree to euthanasia, surely you can agree to (less onerous) slavery.
Actually, this raises a further interesting question. If you agree to euthanasia, but then the doctor takes out a hammer and bashes you in the head, are you entitled to object?
And what about cryogenics? If you get frozen in liquid helium, but the unfreezing part turns out to be problematic, can you still sue for damages?

4. When treason prospers, none dare call it treason. Scientology is getting respectable nowadays, some more than 50 years after its founding. Just like Mormonism, which was quite controversial in its first 50-something years. Raniere could have been a contender, too: he has had around 20 years, far too little time.
His problem may have been not getting enough men involved in his organization. Sure, the women were docile and easy to control, but at the same time he was insufficiently prepared for such an attack.

5. The government had to get involved, because of the blackmail, illegal spying, human trafficking, and other shenanigans Raniere was up to, across state lines and even abroad.

Fen said...

Do you think it’s “consent” if you use blackmail to get sex from someone?

If a women says she wants to be blackmailed into being my sex toy and hands me the information to blackmail her because she is afraid she will lose her nerve and back out of her fantasy, then yes. It's consensual.

This happens more often than you would think.

Fen said...

@ Farmer,

All I'm trying to say is that your statment: "As I understand the case, Raniere coerced women into sex by threat" should be taken with a grain of salt. In this case, the parties are operating in a fetish community where it's common for participants to ASK that they be coerced into doing things they normally wouldn't do voluntarily but would like to experience. It takes the shame off their shoulders. They even sign contracts agreeing that they asked to be coerced or blackmailed.

That should be considered when reading 20-something know-nothing's reporting.

J. Farmer said...

@Fen:

This happens more often than you would think.

Undoubtedly. What’s the evidence that’s what happened here? I’ve probably evaluated 200+ sex offenders in my career, including one who told me that the reason the woman had a fractured jaw and a torn rectum was because she liked “rough play.” Does rough play exist? Certainly. Did I believe him? Not for a second.

Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...

https://bigleaguepolitics.com/boom-keith-raniere-found-guilty-on-all-charges-including-sex-trafficking-from-mexico/

J. Farmer said...

That should be considered when reading 20-something know-nothing's reporting.

So do you actually know all the reporting was done by “20-something know-nothing's” or did you just pull that out of your ass?

Crazy Jane said...

A couple things surprised me.

First was that, salacious as the charges were and prominent as some of the names involved, it got relatively mild press coverage. True, the trial was not held in NY's Southern District (home of the most prominent federal show ponies) but it was in the Eastern District, which is not a long drive from the NYC, which has more news reporters and news outlets per square mile than any other spot on the planet.

Second is that a bunch of women who presumably thought of themselves as having personal autonomy not only surrendered to one guy of no particular distinction but became his enforcers. That none of the women seemed to walk away, and, perhaps, none of their relatives intervened. That the involvement of a US Senator or her relatives did not raise attention. That it all took place in a normal looking town.

That Fyre Festival guy, who swindled a bunch of saps with more money than sense, got LOTS more attention and now is on the hook for $26 million in fines. Go figure.

MikeR said...

You lawyers argue about it. Sounds good to me.

Narayanan said...

Wondering if blackmail is obverse of slavery.

Am I wrong?

John henry said...

6/19/19, 6:08 PM

 MB said...


And what about cryogenics? If you get frozen in liquid helium, but the unfreezing part turns out to be problematic, can you still sue for damages?

Interesting you should ask this.

Neal Stephenson's new book Fall or Dodge In Hell brings together characters from Cryptonomicon, Reamde, and the Quicksilver books to examine this.

Basically, Richard forthrast dies, has a contract with a now extinct cryo company.

Richard gets preserved and is, sort of? Coming back to life.

But no physical part of him exists, only an atomic level brain scan

Wonderful book, so far, one of his best.

It will answer a lot of your questions MB, at least hypothetically.

John Henry

J. Farmer said...

Pre-Raniere arrest: The journalists who took on NXIVM and their top stories

Lucid-Ideas said...

Female go-girl empowerment hardest hit. Wait...sorry, female go-girl empowerment better than ever! Social club! Feminism is about not caring what other people think when you're easily suggestible by dude who gets other women to enslave you and make you susceptible to suggestion!

Score one ladies!
Blast-fax kudos all around!

John henry said...

Those who don't like Cryptonomicon probably won't like this book either. Style is similar to Cryptonomicon but more so.

Not to everyone's taste. It certainly is to mine

John Henry

Narayanan said...

*Cryoburn* is also very interesting.

narciso said...

interesting john henry, admittedly I wasn't keen on readme, and his last time travel/witchcraft one was a little belabored, but the book ends of cryptonomicon and the baroque cycle were interesting,

Fernandistein said...

Unless some branded women showed their brands as evidence (did any?), I'd say it sounds like the #metoo version of the McMartin Preschool hysteria.

Marcus said...

Every girl I have put into restraints for sex has agreed to it.

After promise of payment

THEOLDMAN

Bob Boyd said...

When do we stand back and allow people the freedom to believe whatever they want?

What's the alternative again?

Fernandistein said...

Pre-Raniere arrest: The journalists who took on NXIVM and their top stories

"According to sources:"

Good old "sources!"
...
Women who have been branded admit they consented to be branded, but some felt they were also coerced.

Awww, the poor little dear and their hysterical moral panic.

Bob Smith said...

So I can safely assume none of the women who fell for this stool had a husband/father/big brother who took a bat to this guy and “persuaded” him to alter his career path.

John henry said...

Narciso,

Enoch Root is in this book too. Seems to play an important part but I don't yet understand what tha part is

John Henry .

I Have Misplaced My Pants said...

As I understand the case, Raniere coerced women into sex by threat.

There may have been more to it, but all that I learned about was women voluntarilyproviding compromising photos, etc, that were then used to blackmail them.

J. Farmer said...

@Fernandistein:

Awww, the poor little dear and their hysterical moral panic.

Raniere wasn’t charged with branding. He was charged with sex trafficking. What knowledge of the case has led you to believe that this is just “hysterical moral panic?” Given your blithe dismissal, do you believe that coercion isn’t real? Or that it shouldn’t be a crime? Somehow I doubt that.

Nonapod said...

I recently figured out that I actualy met Raniere at a party about 20 years ago (long story). Obvioulsy he didn't leave any impression on me, but it definitely creeped me out to realize that I met him.

J. Farmer said...

@I Have Misplaced My Pants;

There may have been more to it, but all that I learned about was women voluntarilyproviding compromising photos, etc, that were then used to blackmail them.

If you and I are in a relationship, and you consent to let me take compromising photos of you, and then I threaten to make those photos public unless you pay me $10,000, have I committed a crime?

buwaya said...

The coverage has indeed been very mild. This is a tabloid story par excellence and nothing.

Narr said...

Damn, Fen@613! Does it happen more than your wife thinks? That's the question.

Narr
Not to be nosy

Mark O said...

I thought that was the very point of cults.

buwaya said...

The one clear crime I see here is that there was a 15-year old girl involved.

Lucien said...

@Jupiter:

Yup, plaintiffs may sometimes sue under pseudonyms. Their identities are known to opposing counsel, subject to protective orders, so that they may be effectively deposed and cross-examined. The jury doesn’t need to know their real names in most cases, although in a public trial they run the risk of being recognized. Sometimes (organized crime or espionage cases) Confidential Informants may be unknown even to defense counsel.

I Have Misplaced My Pants said...

If you and I are in a relationship, and you consent to let me take compromising photos of you, and then I threaten to make those photos public unless you pay me $10,000, have I committed a crime?

The photos were provided for the specific, pre-disclosed purpose of ensuring sexual and social obedience due to the threat of blackmail. They were explicitly solicited by referring to them as collateral.

I am not a prosecutor, but if you said 'I want you to give me $10,000 and in order to ensure that you follow through I want to take compromising photos of you, the awareness of which will help you keep your word,' and I said 'You betcha!' and started stripping down, that's not the same thing as blackmail, no. The women agreed to provide the compromising photos for the specific purpose they were used for.

In other words, if I tell you to lock my credit cards in a box to keep me spending, no you have not stolen them from me.

Yancey Ward said...

"The one clear crime I see here is that there was a 15-year old girl involved."

And no New Jersey Senators.

Narr said...

JFarmer@658: A jury will decide that based on The Law (as they understand it).

The commodification, by way of the legal system, of privacy and personal embarrassment--to the detriment of the indiscreet and the benefit of the LS-- is really not going to be sustainable in the long run.

"Blackmail" may well be on the way to joining other useless concepts, like Blasphemy.

Narr
Stephenson . . . I may be ready for another one


narciso said...

Well he does seem to be Stephenson's voice in the novels, also the source of the root command

Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/17/nyregion/nxivm-women-branded-albany.html

narciso said...

Note how the guardian piece had none of the interesting details;

https://www.foxnews.com/sports/shooting-of-david-ortiz-result-of-mistaken-identity-dominican-republic-lead-prosecutor-says

mockturtle said...

It would seem that in this and in many other cases women voluntarily relinquish control and then complain that it was taken from them.

Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...

https://people.com/crime/allison-mack-pleads-guilty-nxivm-case/

pleads guilty to sex trafficking

bagoh20 said...

But for the grace of God, go any of us.it


Ah, just kidding. What kind of bitch lets someone treat them like that unless they want it on some level?

I know, I know. I don't understand vulnerability. I understand that some people will take advantage if you see yourself that way, so STOP IT!

J. Farmer said...

I Have Misplaced My Pants:

The master then told the prospective slave that, in order to learn more, she had to provide "collateral," which was meant to ensure that the prospective slave would keep what she was about to learn a secret. Collateral consisted of material or information that the prospective slave would not want revealed because it would be ruinous to the prospective slave herself and/or someone close to her.

-Raniere complaint

The “collateral” was to prevent them from revealing secrets. It was later used to coerce sex.

To use your own credit card example, if you give me your cc for safekeeping and then I demand you provide additional services before I return them to you, am I committing a crime?

Ice Nine said...

>>What's a cult and why is it different from religion?<<

Religions are the cults that made it.

J. Farmer said...

@mockturtle:

It would seem that in this and in many other cases women voluntarily relinquish control and then complain that it was taken from them.

So what do you think the jury got wrong in this case?

I Have Misplaced My Pants said...

The “collateral” was to prevent them from revealing secrets. It was later used to coerce sex.

Fair distinction, but I still maintain that such a painful choice could have been easily avoided. For example, by not voluntarily joining a weirdo MLM group that made a host of escalating weirdo demands that normal moral agency requires one decline, before arriving at the coerced sex part.

RobinGoodfellow said...


Blogger narciso said...
close enough, it was mattress girl, who summoned a kangaroo court at Columbia, name escapes me


Emma Sulkowicz

I Have Misplaced My Pants said...

This is not, however, a commentary on the legal case, as I am not qualified to evaluate that. Just giving my personal opinion on the events that transpired.

narciso said...

I forgot her name on purpose, for what she had wrought

Spiros Pappas said...

Jake Rapper wrote a book called "Hellfire Club." The hellfire clubs of the 18th and 19th centuries were, like the NXIVM, criminal sexual cults with celebrity members. Ben Franklin was supposedly a member!

Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...

"Q: Right. And so none of it has ever been released?
A: Uh-hum. Correct.
[It was in fact released and was televised in Mexico.]"

https://frankreport.com/2019/06/18/part-4-lauren-salzman-cross-examination-stopped-by-judge-branding-was-supposed-to-be-a-sisterly-bonding-experience/

J. Farmer said...

I Have Misplaced My Pants:

Fair distinction, but I still maintain that such a painful choice could have been easily avoided.

Certainly. I would venture to guess that many of the women would agree they made a series of very poor choices that they with they could undo. Still doesn’t give someone the right to coerce them into sex.

Guildofcannonballs said...

This is a link from 2006 and it's only gotten harder.

To be a pimp that is. Thanks Trump.

narciso said...

I've only made that reference half a dozen time, in one of the alt realities Howard stark was a member

Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...

Nostalgie de la boue

wildswan said...

They thought it would exciting and it turned out to be sordid exploitation which they couldn't get out of without help but they aren't an appealing group of victims - rich and stupid and looking for trouble - and trouble knew how to treat them. But in the end the group would have done something terrible as the Manson family did or as happened at Jonestown because this kind of craziness escalates. So if you want to be utilitarian that's a reason for the state to get involved.

mockturtle said...

So what do you think the jury got wrong in this case?

Farmer, I was not present at the trial.

narciso said...

You know else was allegedly part of that coterie dontcha miss daniels

J. Farmer said...

@wildswan:

So if you want to be utilitarian that's a reason for the state to get involved.

Plus it’s illegal to use threats and coercion to get sex and labor out of someone.

Guildofcannonballs said...

Kid Rock had a line from some movie in one of his old songs, I assume it was an old movie, don't know, but it sounded like from Cagney in White Heat or whatever, ya know, really old:

If it wasn't for bootlegging and gambling, I'd have to get into a more respectable line of work, like runnin' whores.

Or maybe it was versa versa vice?

That was a long time ago.

Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...

I've only made that reference half a dozen times,

Underneath that pillow that David Burge referenced, all kinds of shit's been going on.
Open-source. No need for dark web, 4/8chan, or "Q"

nxivm has been going on for a year-plus w/high profile players and most likely this isnt the end

narciso said...

You have to figure tapper must have heard about nxim more esoteric practices, yet he largely mined 1950 archives to create a scenario where only right leaning figures were involved

Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...

they had 11 'daycare' centers worldwide.
daycare-- you know, for little kids. Probably free

Laslo Spatula said...

Every modern generation of women contains a subset of the Manson Girl Archetype.

Manson just was better at it: most of his girls didn't turn snitch.

I am Laslo.

Guildofcannonballs said...

I don't understand why folks don't understand Snoop saying Althouse Fave Brittany would be a better whore than Christina because Brittany is thicker, can handle the harder stuff longer.

Remember?

narciso said...

I blotted that out of my mind, Aguilera actually has musical talent Brittney does nor.

exiledonmainstreet, green-eyed devil said...

I'd say the difference between a cult and a religion is that you can leave a religion. You can make many criticisms of the Catholic Church, but when I became a lapsed Catholic, Jesuits weren't breaking down my door to drag me to Mass. Nuns weren't calling me and threatening to use rulers to beat my knuckles into a pulp. (Of course, that wasn't true of all places or centuries. It would have been difficult to be a lapsed Catholic in France in 1200 or Ireland in 1930, but it was also difficult to sleep in on Sundays in Boston in 1620.)

It is presently, in 2019, very hard to walk away from Islam or Scientology. As for this nasty organization, it appears that while the women could leave, it wasn't easy to just walk away.

Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...

they werent as Squeaky

narciso said...

Oh never mind:
https://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2019/06/19/syrian-man-charged-for-allegedly-planning-to-bomb-pittsburgh-church-in-the-name-of-isis/?fbclid=IwAR1EaDiScgGQ7TaAmUDmhFD560ptHTpi6PNiPTjZCIJe2tVQ1jfTBvyUUKE

walter said...

More a "Help himself guru".

narciso said...

Ironically this is happening on the 50th anniversary of the Manson murders and that Tarantino film expected to have a twist involving the murders

Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...

As for this nasty organization, it appears that while the women could leave, it wasn't easy to just walk away.

Did you mean the Democrat party?
Cal Brandon Straka

Francisco D said...

If you and I are in a relationship, and you consent to let me take compromising photos of you, and then I threaten to make those photos public unless you pay me $10,000, have I committed a crime?

I am not a lawyer, but then a lawyer might not give you a straight answer. It might depend on the meaning of the word "consent."

Among the deplorable non-lawyers, I would say that the answer is obviously "yes." However, they have clever ways of committing extortion.

chuck said...

Reminds me of the Redgraves' cult membership:

As Cohen reveals, the truth is that both Vanessa and Corin “spent their adult lives serving a repellent totalitarian party led by a rapist and a friend not of ‘human rights’ and ‘justice’, as Radio 4 pretended, but of dictatorship and terror.” Cohen paints a picture of the paranoia that surrounded the Trotskyist party’s headquarters in Clapham, and the leader’s admonition that all members “had to cut off all ties with everyone except the chosen few.”

Look it up. The leader was indeed a rape-rape rapist.

chuck said...

Here is a link about the Redgraves

Adina said...

Cults target people who are vulnerable for recruitment. The indoctrination process is gradual. By the time someone was far enough in the group to be branded they were on restrictive diets, some as low as 500 calories a day, and sleep deprived. The woman who were branded were not told ahead of time what was going to happen. They were not given anything for the pain. One of the witnesses was in solidarity confinement for two years. There were months were she had no human contact. She had to write confessions for her 'crimes'. All of her attempts at repentance were rejected. She was told that wanting to leave was a sign that she had not repented.Her family was told that she was bad,so that they wouldn't help her. She met Keith as a teenager. How exactly was she supposed to resist when she had been groomed by Keith and isolated from her family. Unfortunately some people with antisocial personality disorders victimize others. Sometimes it's a 2 person cult. Sometimes there are thousands of followers. In any case, unless a person has been educated to look for red flags in potential relationships and groups they are joining, they can be vulnerable. The underground bunker website by Tony Ortega has featured coverage of the trial. The Frank report is also good, but more tabloidy. If you spend enough time reading the stories of people who became involved in cults, I think it is possible to see that if anyone was in a vulnerable state, they could be manipulated into joining a cult.

Guildofcannonballs said...

How can pimping be wrong when the lead cheerleader for pimps Snoop is endorsed by everyone from here to there?

walter said...

"One of the witnesses was in solidarity confinement for two years."
He probably called it that.

Guildofcannonballs said...

https://www.lyricsfreak.com/a/adam+sandler/joining+the+cult_20003930.html

Adam Sandler – Joining The Cult Lyrics
[Sounds of Basketball being shot around]
[Sandler:] "Hey man, I'm joining a religious cult."
[Allen:] "Now, that's ridiculous."
[Sandler:] "Well, I'm joining it, so you gotta sign up too."
[Allen:] "What are you talking about?"
[Sandler:] "Hey, don't fuck me on this, man, just sign up."
[Allen:] "No, I'm not going to join a cult!"
[Sandler:] "I can't believe you're pulling this shit on me after Monday night --"
[Allen:] "What?
[Sandler:] "-- I wanted to watch Monday Night Football
And you wanted to watch that other show and we watched your show --
I did that for you!"
[Allen:] "Yeah, well, you kept flippin' back to the game."
[Sandler:] "I WANTED TO SEE THE FUCKIN' SCORE!
Whadda you gotta do that's so fucking importnat you can't join the religious cult with me?"
[Allen:] "Well, I was gonna go sunbathing."
[Sandler:] "Oh, boy, no no, I don't think you should do that.
Because this guy, Russell -- he's the leader-guy of the cult --"
[Allen:] "-- yeah --"
[Sandler:] "-- he was rambling on during one of the speeches
About the sun being bad, like the beast can't come out
Because the sun's too bright and the sun hurts his eyes or something --
You show up all sunburned and that guy's gonna get pissed at you and me!"
[Allen:] "Well, I'm not in the cult, so I don't have to worry about pissing the leader guy off!"
[Sandler:] "Look, I'm -- starting to believe in some of the stuff the cult guy's been saying --
Some of it makes a lot of sense!
[Allen:] "Well, good, but I don't want to join the cult.
We can still hang out; I just won't be in it with you."
[Sandler:] "The point is, I'm not gonna have time to hang out with you because I'm gonna be fuckin' busy with this fuckin' cult!"
[Allen:] "So I'll visit on weekends -- we'll work it out."
[Sandler:] "No, the weekends are like the busiest time --
That's when we go to flea malls and fuckin' malls and talk people into joining, man!"
[Allen:] "Can I join for just a little while?
I told my dad I'd go visit him in Florida in three weeks."
[Sandler:] "Well, just, we'll ask then, but we gotta join now."
[Allen:] "What's the hurry?"
[Sandler:] "There's a girl I wanna meet there, what the fuck's your problem?"
[Allen:] "Well, I mean I don't really have to believe in this stuff, do I?"
[Sandler:] "No, no, just fuckin' tell everybody you believe in this shit -- when they say the sun sucks, go,
"Yeah, fuck the sun, I fuckin' hate it too, long live the fuckin' beast."
[Allen:] "I don't know, man. This is crazy."
[Sandler:] "Look, they're gonna give you clothers, a free haircut, you're gonna get food --"
[Allen:] "-- it's not gonna be one of those weird haircuts, is it?"
[Sandler:] "It's gonna be a haircut, all right?
You said you need a haircut, they're gonna fuckin' cut your hair.
You're going in, saving twelve bucks, just fuckin' do it!"
[Allen:] "Do you think the hot girl has a friend for me?"
[Sandler:] "Yeah, sure, and if she doesn't, she'll go out and recruit one for you!"
[Allen:] "Well, all right. But, hey, if I don't like it, I'm going to escape, man."
[Sandler:] "OK, that's up to you."

[Three weeks later!]

Guildofcannonballs said...

[Chanting repeatedly] "The night time is the right time!
The night time is the right time!"
[Sandler:] "Hey buddy, are you glad you did this?"
[Allen:] "Oh, this is the best thing I ever did. Thank you."
[Sandler:] "You're not mad at them making you, uh, kill your father, are you?"
[Allen:] "You know, it's like they said. It was the only way to save him."
[Sandler:] "You're a good guy."
[Allen:] "You're a better one."
[Chanting resumes]

mockturtle said...

Cults target people who are vulnerable for recruitment.

Many years ago on a bus in Seattle I picked up a pamphlet left on the seat. It had a series of questions, the nature of which [I could tell] could determine if someone were mentally or emotionally vulnerable to control. On the back, it identified the source as the Church of Scientology. So, yes, these cults actively seek out followers who are amenable to submission.

William said...

I don't think he was the smartest man alive, but he was considerably brighter than his followers.....Has there ever been a history of a cult leader who did NOT take sexual advantage of his followers.....There's something suspicious about the lack of coverage of this sensational case......Jonestown, of course, got a lot of coverage. There didn't seem to be much coverage of the Rev. Jones support of various liberal causes and his alliance with various liberal politicians, however.

Guildofcannonballs said...

Incestuous cults like law love pointing out the faults in others.

n.n said...

Sadomasochistic orientation? Psychoactive cocktails? Breaking a glass ceiling? Maybe they were just bored, and hoped and dreamed for change to define their dreary existence. Perhaps they are just cuckoo.

This is why society goes out of its way to protect its green (e.g. young, immature) members from themselves.

The leader was indeed a rape-rape rapist.

Whereas rape is a political wedge to rationalize the wicked solution.

We have been informed by urbane sensibilities that words and behaviors have a living, relative significance. That everyone is entitled to define "it" as they will. It seems like the root of a progressive condition that diverges and runs amuck.

Guildofcannonballs said...

What can you do when looking back is too tough?

Lie. To yourself firstly foremost.

Guildofcannonballs said...

When you cheat by 20 million votes in 2020, you make sure the story is "Democrat wins in Landslide" no matter what.

No.

Matter.

What?

No matter how many actual voters there are and no matter what way they vote or don't.

Just don't matter. Democrats count now and GOP not, thank you G. Soros.

William said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...

"But buried in the transcript of Tuesday’s hearing – which we only received mid-afternoon today – was the startling revelation that the government alleges that Emiliano Salinas, the son of Carlos Salinas, the former President of Mexico, is a co-conspirator in this case."

https://frankreport.com/2019/05/16/prosecution-claims-emiliano-salinas-is-a-criminal-co-conspirator-in-nxivm/

John henry said...

Huey Newton (I think) when asked what position women should have in the Black Panthers replied

"Prone"

John Henry

Guildofcannonballs said...

The only remedy now is for Trump to remain forever potUS.

Sorry, but your nitemare is what you made us turn into reality. You know.

You thought you could cheat Rich Mellon Scaiffe? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

10,000 years from now, Scaiffe will still be owning those same libs.

traditionalguy said...

The tipping point seems to have arrived when this Jury was willing to believe this level of evil exists. That it seems too terrible to be believed has always protection for the system.

There is a current Psyops Media big push to legalize everything this CIA trained expert was doing to this cult's victims. And sweet old RBG is one of their biggest promoters straight out of the SCOTUS into your kids and grandkids' futures.

This cult's way of life exposed at trial is the #1 method in use by the world rulers of darkness to enslave and torture children for spiritual empowerment from their god. Thank the real God that the literal monster Hillary did not become President,She would be encouraging and covering up the system.

Guildofcannonballs said...

You don't do the ownin' okay, Scaiffe does the ownin' mofo.

eric said...

Blogger mockturtle said...
It would seem that in this and in many other cases women voluntarily relinquish control and then complain that it was taken from them.


I think there is something of a contradiction to recognize here.

As Fen has pointed out, it seems these were women into rape fantasies. Perhaps they had a moral conscience that didn't allow them to participate in this activities outside of being forced?

I don't know the details.

But let's assume these are women who would feel deep levels of shame if they participated willingly. However, there was something in their psyche that allowed them to participate with great enthusiasm once they agreed to be forced (I know, that seems to not make any sense, but whatever).

How do you suppose such women (And even men) would behave once this all became very public?

We're talking people who didn't want to participate without being forced, because of the levels of shame they would feel. Now, they're being exposed very publicly for sex acts for which they feel great shame. Isn't the only way for them to alleviate this shame to make every claim available to not participating voluntarily?

Guildofcannonballs said...

The Bushes, lifetime, total 812 EC votes stolen.

Quite the feat.

Doubt the mad (crazy) progs can do as well.

I do appreciate a good contest though, over who can cheat the better especially, because as proggies know we/us cheat better than anyone ever, even bogeyman.

Or bogeywoman.

n.n said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
mockturtle said...

Huey Newton (I think) when asked what position women should have in the Black Panthers replied

"Prone"


Presumably, he meant supine. But maybe not.

n.n said...

Isn't the only way for them to alleviate this shame to make every claim available to not participating voluntarily?

Rape, not rape-rape. #MeToo Deja vu. We must be in Portland.

mockturtle said...

Eric proposes: As Fen has pointed out, it seems these were women into rape fantasies. Perhaps they had a moral conscience that didn't allow them to participate in this activities outside of being forced?

Or they don't want to be responsible for their actions. Kinda like getting dead-drunk at a frat party.

John henry said...

Way ot here but I wonder if anyone here has read Tolkien's Leaf by Niggle?

I have no idea why and it has been 30-40 years since I last read it but I am getting a distinct feeling of connection between Leaf and Fall.

I wonder if I am just being weird? It's entirely possible.

L by N is, imo, one of the best things Tolkien wrote.

And, to go back to the original comment Leaf is all about life after death and preserving the essence.

John Henry

Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...

@John Henry
Dr Tim keller's take:
https://thechristianscholar.wordpress.com/2014/07/15/lets-read-keller-6-digging-deeper-into-tolkiens-leaf-by-niggle/

Guildofcannonballs said...

The ultimate in Loose Lip people, progs could never cheat because they know they would brag about it forever and ever and ever and ever.

Guildofcannonballs said...

"Do you believe Romney cheated on his taxes"

...

"He didn't win did he?"

Yeah those Mormon progs shure are trustworthy folk looking out for my best interests.

And if you doubt, their inbred incest-fueled law practice does quite well indeed in Nevada.

Narr said...

I Know a lot of guys who were lured into church, and worse, by some pretty thang, so it's not like CULT! all of a sudden rears its ugly head. Most religions start as sex cults anyway; a few manage to pervert nature to the extent that rule by eunuchs is considered desirable, but most of them settle for making sure the priesthood has first dibs on the chicken.

Narr
A model scam, really

Swede said...

How in the hell do people have time for this shit?

Do they not have jobs? Families? Are they not busy?

Between work, basketball league, Freemasons, family time, and projects I'm working on, I don't have 20 minutes in a day to spare for sex cults.

Are my priorities off?

Guildofcannonballs said...

Smoking gun in the prog room: well smoke actually in this case helps us to see exactly why forensically smoke is not a mirror so the glove doesn't fit.

Millions earned, good job John Edwards et al. You certainly, certainly earned it, hanging around a fat dying prog bitch for so long. The horror, the horror.

Guildofcannonballs said...

John Kerry's wife fucked every sailor from 63' to '67 in the Venezualain Navy.

On video too.

With pride.

Guildofcannonballs said...

Remember when the problem was the repression?

Well, you ain't gonna remember that no more.

I can assure you.

We can all agree acting out our worst horror is ultimately best for society at large.

Nichevo said...

John Henry, yay Leaf!



J. Farmer,

Still doesn’t give someone the right to coerce them into sex.

6/19/19, 7:48 PM
Guildofcannonballs said...
This is a link from 2006 and it's only gotten harder.

To be a pimp that is. Thanks Trump.

6/19/19, 7:51 PM


President Trump has apparently, I'm weak on the details, taken significant measures which have had measurable results against sex trafficking. Is that a big thing for you? Is that something you are/should be grateful for?

Guildofcannonballs said...

"Know a lot of guys who were lured into church, and worse,"

Did they force you now to talk of them and not all those gals unlured, unto Church and better?

Why not speak of them now, unless you only learn by thinking of the losers and that is the lesson you want to impart here today with your wisdom.

Derp Narr derp.

Feel deeply the derp. It becomes you.

Guildofcannonballs said...

The only real problem I had with Tony Robbins, whom I've since pimped, is A) Gary Vaynerchuck or something and B) some asshole telling me about Real Estate and why buying homes in foreclosure is a winner winner winner because OMG they have the financing for 69/31 deals OMG OMG OMG.

You find a grand slam property and by God these friendly folks will go ahead and do you a favor and get you 18% financing on it!

WOW!!

But beyond that, there was a Canadian from Shark Tank Robert something who was good, others good, and Tony came out like a rock star leading church services.

But he made a point of repeating "We're not broken people, we don't need to be saved" and I thought he was wrong about that. We are all broken and need saving, is my thinking. Sure sure some, way, way less than others, but for the attendee's more especially because of the self-selecting factor. Mojo. Intestinal fortitude. Non-cuck.

Guildofcannonballs said...

I want some folks to contact Althouse and focus on investments in La Junta for me.

When the weather gets real cold, La Junta is where we will have the limitless land for folks who know where they want to be, and it ain't in fucking 20 degrees Farenheight below God Damned zero.

Get the Hell out of there. The big migration, cull.

J. Farmer said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Guildofcannonballs said...

I'd like to think Narr knows all about those 200,000,000 who spent time worshiping in America last year.

Wouldn't that make everything simple and easy, just like Narr likes it?

Being an easily lead simpleton, Narr is almost there when it comes to being a leader I can always blindly follow.

That is how it works, right? I don't know, I need a leader I can follow to tell me.

Christ just isn't enough for Narr I take it, and if that's the case I concur blindly. Because of the pretty prose of course.

J. Farmer said...

@Eric:

As Fen has pointed out, it seems these were women into rape fantasies.

What is the source for that claim?

Isn't the only way for them to alleviate this shame to make every claim available to not participating voluntarily?

Except the case did not simply rely on victim testimony. From the complaint: "In particular, the FBI has interviewed eight victims and many additional first-hand witnesses to the events described herein, electronic evidence recovered from the victims and witnesses, and the results of several search warrants including one executed on an email account belonging to RANIERE."

J. Farmer said...

@mockturtle:

Farmer, I was not present at the trial.

And yet:

"And are these women not adults [no snickering, please]? I don't feel the least bit sorry for any of them."

"It would seem that in this and in many other cases women voluntarily relinquish control and then complain that it was taken from them."

"Or they don't want to be responsible for their actions. Kinda like getting dead-drunk at a frat party."

I think if you want to betray such a callous regard for these women, you should at least do them the courteous of knowing something about the case.

Limited Perspective said...

Count me as a Puritan. I don't get the current sexual accusation counter accusation. Letting the court decide what a person's frenzied mental illness is at the time of sexual intercourse is not for us Puritans. We love the brief mental illness of passion.

The best way to sexual fulfillment is to find the chick that turns you on when you are in your twenties and be sexually faithful and devoted to her for the rest of your life. If you also make something of yourself she will respect that have great passion in return.

Gahrie said...

How is this fundamentally different from the events in Fifty Shades of Grey?

Guildofcannonballs said...

I'd never boldly lie like Althouse and claim I am not interested in politics, but I will claim I am more interested in the hate Robbins dredges up than the message itself, completely true and verifiable and repeatable: attitude matters.

Sure the high and mighty see it as low brow, as they ought, but the non-high and non-mighty hating that which could propel them upward because of life in general being needful of this easily gotten thing they haven't gotten is disturbing.

Think of what the 1966 Packers would have been without Vince.

Have you heard any of his speeches to his team?

Why does anyone have any advisors or mentors or coaches, shouldn't they all be Narr? Above all of it?

Guildofcannonballs said...

Narr could have out-Pattoned Patton fer sure, of course natch.

Because of the understanding, you see.

Guildofcannonballs said...

RKO 281 Leiv Shreiber playing Orson says "great speeches have changed the world" and I agree.

The Great Bu Bu better not, although he ought to therefore feel sheepish about that peculiar contrarianism.

J. Farmer said...

@Gahrie:

How is this fundamentally different from the events in Fifty Shades of Grey?

Having never read the books or seen the movies, I cannot answer. But if you are asking how is this different from the master/slave dynamics that are common in the fetish community, masters/tops/doms are often sought out by slaves/bottoms/subs. In the fetish community, doms do not have to create multilevel marketing schemes, make a concerted effort to find vulnerable and/or troubled people through such a scheme, obtain incriminating information about them through subterfuge, and then use that information to coerce labor and sex from them and then threaten them with retribution or violence if they attempt to extricate themselves. Generally, they just go on fetish community forums and look for phrases like "slave 4 doms." See the difference?

Guildofcannonballs said...

"President Trump has apparently, I'm weak on the details, taken significant measures which have had measurable results against sex trafficking. Is that a big thing for you? Is that something you are/should be grateful for?"

Anytime a real criminal is dead or in jail there is less risk to me; risk spreads across generations like, and I am no expert believe me, compound interest has been said to do.

Guildofcannonballs said...

"How is this fundamentally different from the events in Fifty Shades of Grey?"

You've been dumbed down.

No shame, the shame is in the not wising up.

We all know you have it in you.

So explains Buckley: The progs see an old lady getting moved away from a coming bus and the purse-snatcher as merely the same thing. Figure the rest out. "It is not the same to remove an old lady from danger of getting hit by a bus as it is to steal her purse" and go from there.

You can do it. Many of us have. Many never will. But you can. We believe in you. You have succeeded before and you can do so again. Your mind is your greatest limitation. Not much separates you from the Billionaires. Believe in yourself. Do good things and reward yourself. Keep on keepin' on!

Guildofcannonballs said...

Toughest thing I've done in years, but I gave it to you: I woulda gone ultra nasty had I not thought of the great Tony R.

So there's your anecdote.

n.n said...

How is this fundamentally different from the events in Fifty Shades of Grey?

It depends if it was consensual or consensual-consensual.

Fen said...

How is this fundamentally different from the events in Fifty Shades of Grey?

Also, our heroine was willing to submit for the chance to marry his bank account.

Even going so far as letting him grab her by the pussy.

And yet, millions of Democrats with Fifty Shades adorning their coffee table, to make themselves appear sophisticated all clutched their pearls in unison when Trump stated the obvious.

Fen said...

In other words, if I tell you to lock my credit cards in a box to keep me spending, no you have not stolen them from me.

An example I think most could relate to is from high school, summers at the local State Fair or Six Flags. You want to go on the double loop rollercoaster but every time you get to the front of the line, you chicken out. So you hand your best friend your car keys and make her promise not to let you leave the park until you have riden that rollercoaster.

It's not kidnapping.

Fen said...

Farmer: So do you actually know all the reporting was done by “20-something know-nothing's” or did you just pull that out of your ass?

Aw, stop flirting with me, Precious. And why so hostile?

I'm merely pointing out the Gell-Mann Amnesia Effect and quoting Ben Rhodes:

"The average reporter we talk to is 27 years old, and their only reporting experience consists of being around political campaigns. That’s a sea change. They literally know nothing."

Why are you taking our disagreement so personal? Do you want a spanking but are too shy to ask? You need to calm down. :)

Dave said...

Dont be telling me to calm down.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GRkt9t_40w

Tina Trent said...

We'll all be victims when they make the tv movie with David Duchovny.

J. Farmer said...

@Fen:

Why are you taking our disagreement so personal?

I'm not taking it personally at all. I'm simply challenging your uninformed statement about the reporting on this case. I have this absurd standard that when people make statements, they should, you know, know what they're talking about.

J. Farmer said...

@Fen:

So you hand your best friend your car keys and make her promise not to let you leave the park until you have riden that rollercoaster.

It's not kidnapping.


And then after you ride the rollercoaster, your friend takes your car and refuses to give it back to you until you've performed various favors for them. A-ok, huh?

Narr said...

Let it out, Guild! I hope you feel better now.

I'm not looking to follow, or to lead. I'm looking to think, and learn, and enjoy, which includes running things up the Prof's flagpole and seeing who gets a hard-on.

I didn't get much from advisors, mentors (I didn't even know the word until I was in grad school), or coaches (who in my experience were mostly feebs or pervs) and I have never sought a guru.

Narr
Cults gonna cult, courts gonna court, Narr gonna comment

The Cracker Emcee Refulgent said...

After listening to Uncover's excellent Escaping NXIVM podcast my response was fuck 'em all. Hearing the "victims" voices and their after-the-fact mea culpas it became clear how eagerly complicit these self-serving assholes were in this bullshit. Exactly the kind of New Age nonsense Crack used to rail against.

Gospace said...

Why would women get into this? I don't know- but maybe MSM pushes women into doing things us normies frown upon.

https://thefederalist.com/2019/06/17/teen-vogue-encourages-children-explore-prostitution-career/

Gospace said...

Then there's young women who'll believe some stranger on the internet will give them 9 million dollars for murdering another young woman. Obviously money is the motivation, but how are women so foolish they would fall for something like this?

I wonder if a charge of fraud could also be placed against the man who offered the 9 million since he total net worth was far less than that..... Might as well pile on the charges.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/06/19/alaskan-teenager-convinced-online-fraudster-murder-mentally/

J. Farmer said...

@Gospace:

Obviously money is the motivation, but how are women so foolish they would fall for something like this?

In all likelihood, this girl has intellectual and developmental issues.

Narr said...

The Internet has extended the possibilities of human imbecility and depravity more than anything since Prohibition.

Somebody came up with a great word for how little girls are encouraged to dress now: prostitots. Of course, they're also encouraged to talk, walk, and posture that way too.

Narr
Being a dirty old man has never been easier

J. Farmer said...

@Wendy Shallit:

Being a dirty old man has never been easier

A lot of conservative feminists have pointed out how the hook up culture (supposedly empower to women) has largely benefited men. A lot of radical feminists complain about the double standard while ignoring (a) men and women have different sexuality; and (b) women are the primary enforces and beneficiaries of the double standard.

Wendy Shalit's 1999 Return to Modesty: Discovering the Lost Virtue covers some of this material well.