May 23, 2019

"'Trump is the Devil,' says chain-wielding man before cop fatally shoots him."

Video at the NY Post. I've watched it, and it's astounding how long the cop walks backward, warning the man that he will get shot. The shooting has (rightly) been ruled self defense.

83 comments:

Curious George said...

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

dreams said...

A Never Trumper, never more.

Sebastian said...

"it's astounding how long the cop walks backward"

It's astounding what cops put up with. It's astounding how much flak they catch from progs.

madAsHell said...

When do we call it civil war?

madAsHell said...

When do we accuse the WaPo of yelling fire in a crowded theater?

rcocean said...

Sad. the man was an obvious loony.

Its a good thing the crazy guy didn't have an accomplice. The cop was so intent on walking backwards and the not shooting, someone else couldn't taken him from behind. Also, its a good thing he didn't trip and fall over backwards.

What's the rule with single cops going on out on patrol? A lot of these altercations could be avoided if you had TWO cops instead one Cop out there by himself.

madAsHell said...

He let the guy inside of 20 ft. He’s lucky.

RK said...

Ok, that was clearly self-defense. But all of the other shootings by cops which are not on video were because the cops are racist and just trying to kill the black man. Black Lives Matter.

stevew said...

"it's astounding how long the cop walks backward"

It's what they are trained to do, use deadly force only as a last resort. At least the properly trained ones. Not the one that shot and killed the Australian woman, or the one that shot the black guy running away in a park, or the one that shot the black guy in the car that announced he was carrying and permitted to do so.

I'm willing to be this cop is suffering from extreme remorse, and will likely have nightmares about what he could have done differently or better.

Curious George said...

"I'm willing to be this cop is suffering from extreme remorse, and will likely have nightmares about what he could have done differently or better."

Yep, no matter how justified taking a human life is traumatic. I feel for hime, I'm sure the nightmares will last quite a while.

Ken B said...

Without the bodycam video what do you think the media would be saying?

Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...

"Obviously a Trump supporter"

Automatic_Wing said...

Thought it was interesting how the dude with the chain played the race card.

Jupiter said...

"The shooting has (rightly) been ruled self defense."

I'm not so sure of that. This strikes me as one of those rare occasions when the question "Why didn't you shoot him in the leg?" makes pretty good sense. I would say the cop was betrayed by his training.

Fen said...

"When do we call it civil war?"

When Republicans finally find their balls.

AlbertAnonymous said...

Looks like the guy got shot just before the other car arrived. Unless the video is cut, it appears the other car arrives just as he hits the ground. Shame he couldn’t last another few seconds, might not have been killed (did he die?). Then again, no way to know if the cop ran out of real estate backing up.

Frankly I’m surprised he waited as long as he did. Clearly the loon wanted to die. Sad.

traditionalguy said...

Suicide by cop. One of many each day. Was his name Nadler?

Fen said...

"one of those rare occasions when the question "Why didn't you shoot him in the leg?" makes pretty good sense."

What do you think about this mole on my elbow? Should I get it checked out?







Crimso said...

"He let the guy inside of 20 ft. He’s lucky."

An everyday person, inside of 20 ft. with a legit fear for safety, pop him as soon as he gets within 20 ft. Cops are held to higher standards (and long have been; my father is retired PO-leece and back in the 70s he was expected to confront an intruder in our home by retreating as far as he could, making the person aware he was a cop and was armed, before it was possible to think about it being a good shoot). This cop went above and beyond. As a general rule, cops really don't want to shoot people, and that has nothing to do with the legal hassles that would ensue.

'This strikes me as one of those rare occasions when the question "Why didn't you shoot him in the leg?" makes pretty good sense.'

My dad taught me to never point a firearm at someone unless you intended to shoot them, and to never shoot someone unless you intended to kill them. I think this is generally applicable.

HoodlumDoodlum said...

Mentally ill people are a real problem. It's a shame the guy died because of his (likely mental illness-inspired) actions; it's a shame the cop had to defend himself with deadly force.

Some people are crazy and dangerous, though. I wish that weren't true, but it is. Given that truth it's a good thing the rest of us have access to tools necessary to effectively defend ourselves and others when necessary.

Tough stuff all around--I'm not sure what good focusing on the content of the crazy person's crazy statements is supposed to do, though. Much as I'd like to blame the Media and/or Leftists for every bad thing that happens sometimes crazy is just crazy, you know?

Szoszolo said...

"one of those rare occasions when the question "Why didn't you shoot him in the leg?" makes pretty good sense."

Not as easy as it sounds with a moving target unless you let him get much too close to you. You'd be amazed at how long someone can keep going with a couple of bullets in him if you don't hit a major organ. That's why all self-defense courses tell you to aim for center mass. Always.

EDH said...

He sounded like Maxine Waters.

Bob Loblaw said...

Cops don't shoot people in the leg. Once a cops starts shooting he's going to empty the magazine into your center of mass. If he doesn't he'll likely get some kind of reprimand from the department.

HoodlumDoodlum said...

Jupiter said...
"The shooting has (rightly) been ruled self defense."

I'm not so sure of that.


I strongly disagree. If the question was "was there anything else the person in danger (the cop) could have done" then maaaaaaybe you could say yes--I don't think it's reasonable to ask the cop to rely on a Taser or shoot to wound in that situation but knowledgeable people might disagree (I don't think they would, but it's possible). But that's not the question--the question is whether the cop's actions rightfully count as self defense. Was the force the cop used proportional and reasonable to the threat he (reasonably) felt he faced? That's not a close question--the answer is yes. So it's clearly self defense.

You can certainly think he should have taken some other action while still thinking the action he did take was justifiable self defense. People might ask you to specify what action you think he should have taken anyway, and might criticize your recommendation, but "should he have done what he did/was what he did his best option" is a separate question from "was what he did self-defense?"

Guildofcannonballs said...

Progs are on tape bragging about enabling, criminally, the crazies taught to hate anything non-prog.

Bad, bad people the progs. That is precisely why Obama paid them with our tax dollars.

BleachBit-and-Hammers said...

that's a LOT of chances to put the chain down and back off.

Guildofcannonballs said...

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=james+o%27keefe+taped+democrat+provoking+crazy+people&t=opera&ia=web

"Undercover video shows Democrats saying they hire agitators ...
Search domain www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/oct/18/undercover-video-shows-democrats-saying-they-hire-/https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/oct/18/undercover-video-shows-democrats-saying-they-hire-/
Oct 18, 2016 · The first video shows Democratic strategists discussing how they hire agitators — including union members, homeless people and the mentally ill — to incite violence by provoking Trump ..."

Then, natch, they call us a bunch of pussies for not gunning down anyone, like they are so prone to doing.

BleachBit-and-Hammers said...

Police learn to shoot to kill. They must.

JAORE said...

"one of those rare occasions when the question "Why didn't you shoot him in the leg?" makes pretty good sense."

When I lived in Atlanta during the mid-80s there was a debate about whether the cops should use hollow point bullets. My position then, and now, is, cops should only shoot when they have to. But once they decide they HAVE to shoot. Shoot BIG!

Fen said...

Police are supposed to aim center mass. Anyone stupid enough to try a trick shot he saw on Mission Impossible deserves to die.

Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...

another leftist with a chainsaw

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2019/05/leftist-thug-with-chainsaw-threatens-women-for-trump-highway-protesters-with-us-flags-video/

leftists are emboldened in part because of conservatives' restraint

dreams said...

"Suicide by cop. One of many each day. Was his name Nadler?"

And do you know that James Hodgkinson's death was ruled or determined to be suicide by cop by the Washington police? Even though... "The Illinois man who in June opened fire on Republican members of Congress at a baseball practice in Alexandria had "cased the field" for weeks and was spotted watching the lawmakers play the day before the shooting rampage, according to new report issued Friday."

Marcus said...

Shoot to wound? Bwhahaha. What an idiot. Been watching too many movies.

Shoot if you must, but shoot to kill.

THEOLDMAN

Guildofcannonballs said...

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/oct/18/undercover-video-shows-democrats-saying-they-hire-/

---“I’m saying we have mentally ill people that we pay to do sh—, make no mistake,” Mr. Foval said. “Over the last 20 years. I’ve paid off a few homeless guys to do some crazy stuff, and I’ve also taken them for dinner and I’ve also made sure they had a hotel and a shower and I’ve put them in a program. I’ve done that.”

He also has contacts with unions such as the AFL-CIO. “But the reality is, a lot of people, especially our union guys, a lot of union guys, they’ll do whatever you want,” Mr. Foval said. “They’re rock ‘n’ roll.”

Mr. Foval also made it clear that he viewed Mr. Creamer as a mentor.

“I work for Bob Creamer one to one,” Mr. Foval said in the video. “I’m the white hat. Democracy Partners is kind of dark hat. Bob Creamer is diabolical, and I love him for it.”---

anti-de Sitter space said...

Classy blog.

Classy commentors.

anti-de Sitter space said...

Not deranged.

anti-de Sitter space said...

Stable.

Rob said...

This guy says Trump is the devil; he's clearly mentally ill. Nancy Pelosi says Trump is villainous; finish the thought yourself.

Drago said...

I am going to miss LLR Chuck.

anti-de Sitter space said...

https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status/1131658573300359169

RK said...

Back in the day, Sgt. Joe Friday would've pulled out his snub-nosed .38 and "winged" the guy just enough so he'd drop the chain and give up.

dreams said...

Roy Rogers or Gene Autry would have shot that chain out of his hand and a happy ending would have been enjoyed by all.

Gk1 said...

It always makes me laugh when I hear people second guess law enforcement and muse that maybe they could have aimed at a non lethal part of someone's body like they are Annie Oakley using a mirror behind their back to do a trick shot. I think I read the average distance shootings occur is like 6-8 feet with less than 1 second to react. Cops are taught and train to empty their gun into the center mass. End of story. And they don't need the advice of people who have learned law enforcement by watching t.v.

Achilles said...

Jupiter said...
"The shooting has (rightly) been ruled self defense."

I'm not so sure of that. This strikes me as one of those rare occasions when the question "Why didn't you shoot him in the leg?" makes pretty good sense. I would say the cop was betrayed by his training.

I put my share of bullets down range out of a pistol. I put enough down range to know hitting someone in the leg is fucking hard. It is moving. It has a small profile. If it is coming at you you are under pressure.

Anyone shooting less than a 1000 rounds a week should shoot center mass.

Anyone shooting enough to know how hard it is to hit a leg will shoot center mass.

Shoot center mass.

DanTheMan said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
DanTheMan said...

>>Cops are taught and train to empty their gun into the center mass

Where do you people get these ridiculous ideas from? That's obviously not true, and yet, somehow you believe it.



DanTheMan said...

>>one of those rare occasions when the question "Why didn't you shoot him in the leg?" makes pretty good sense."

Please tell me you kidding. Please. Nobody is that clueless....


>>Police learn to shoot to kill. They must.

Not true, and not ANY department's policy that I'm aware of. We were trained to fire for effect... once you saw the threat ended, you were required to stop firing, reassess, and render aid if you could do so safely.

FullMoon said...

I'm not so sure of that. This strikes me as one of those rare occasions when the question "Why didn't you shoot him in the leg?" makes pretty good sense. I would say the cop was betrayed by his training.

Or, just rush up and get him in a headlock and wrassle him down to the ground.

Big Mike said...

I agree with those who call it suicide by cop and I also agree with shooting center mass. Two reasons for that: (1) if you aim elsewhere it’s too easy to miss and then you are dealing with someone crazy and angry so close that he’ll be on you in just a second or two, and (2) a person who survives can sue. Even if he wins the suit, and in this case the officer probably would win (but only probably!), it can really mess up his life.

I recommend that skeptical people get on YouTube and search for “Mythbusters never bring a knife to a gun fight.”

DanTheMan said...

>>Or, just rush up and get him in a headlock and wrassle him down to the ground.

We used to say "Just wave your college diploma at him. He will instantly see the error of his ways."


YoungHegelian said...

I wouldn't be surprised if the guy with the chain was on PCP. That behavior was just whack. Crazy past the point just "suicide by cop" crazy.

If the guy was "dusting" he actually may have thought that he was invulnerable to the cop's bullets. PCP (Angel Dust) makes people do the weirdest shit.

I once saw a guy in DC running down the middle of a busy street downtown at rush hour. Not just running, but running backwards. Clearly, Angel Dust had struck again.

Achilles said...

Bob Loblaw said...
Cops don't shoot people in the leg. Once a cops starts shooting he's going to empty the magazine into your center of mass. If he doesn't he'll likely get some kind of reprimand from the department.

Wait what?

Center mass yes.

Empty the mag? I hope not...

I have seen videos of police shooting and their statistics for accuracy are really poor so I could believe it.

Just for general knowledge you need to shoot a number of shots, then reacquire the target. The number of shots depends on the weapon you are using and how many rounds you can shoot somewhat accurately. The time in between is how long it takes you to reacquire.

Don't spray and pray. It is a good way to end up out of bullets facing someone not dead particularly with the limited capacities of most carry pistols.

FullMoon said...

I wouldn't be surprised if the guy with the chain was on PCP. That behavior was just whack.

Old school, now more crazier stuff available.



Narr said...

Key and Peele have a great episode with a gun-shy cop and bold criminal, but the perp is leaving and gets away . . .

Narr
Cop wasn't even standing his ground

chickelit said...

I got a Tazmanian Devil vibe from dead perp.

FTR, think it was the chain spinning that triggered my impression.

chickelit said...

anti-de Sitter space said...Stable.

I need to chirbit your thoughts in my* "Mr. Ed." voice. Or better, me saying in Mr. Ed voice what Trump says but saying it to you.

*Geriatric possessive?

Francisco D said...


Ritmo we hardly knew ya.

RIP.

Bruce Hayden said...


"The shooting has (rightly) been ruled self defense."

“I'm not so sure of that. This strikes me as one of those rare occasions when the question "Why didn't you shoot him in the leg?" makes pretty good sense. I would say the cop was betrayed by his training”

I’m with the others above who think that this is a really bad advice. You shoot center of mass, unless they are wearing body armor. At least double tap, then maybe a head shot. There are a lot of reasons to never try for the legs (or arms). For the most part, unless you hit the spine, or maybe brain, single or double taps aren’t going to stop someone very quickly - unless, with a leg, you hit the femoral artery, and then they are probably going to bleed out before you can get a tourniquet on the leg very quickly. (And you are going to have to disarm him before you do that, and that usually requires two officers). So, shooting someone in the leg will probably mean that you will probably miss, if you don’t, then it likely won’t stop him, and if it does, it will because he bled out in short order.

The goal is never to kill, but rather to neutralize the threat. One of the best examples of a great police shooting was by officer Owen Wilson of Big Mike Brown (295 lbs) in Ferguson, MO. Brown had shortly before tried to take Wilson’s gun a away from him while he was sitting in his Tahoe, and got shot in the arm for his troubles. At that point, Brown was legally considered a violent felon, and Wilson could have shot him if he tried to escape. Instead, Wilson exited his vehicle and started following Brown, who turned and started to rush Wilson. Wilson shot twice, hitting him in the arm, and continued to retreat. Brown shook it off, and Wilson then double tapped him again, to the chest. Brown stopped, shook it off, and then tried to rush him again. Double tap to the head, and Brown was down for good (so much for “hands up don’t shoot”). Note what Wilson did - double tap, then assess, repeat as necessary, until the threat is neutralized, keeping the distance open if possible. Note - one reason that they knew that this was what happened is that Brown’s blood trail was on top of some of Wilson’s spent shells.

Of course, most cops wouldn’t have been able to put all 7 rounds into their attacking suspect. And that is why they are often taught to empty their magazine. The problem there is the question of what if the first couple shots neutralized their attacker, and they continue to shoot their remaining 13-15 rounds into them? If that happened to a civilian in a self defense shooting, they could potentially lose their claim to self defense at the point when the threat is neutralized, and they are no longer in imminent danger of death or great bodily injury. It has happened before, though typically not in a rapid fire, mag dump, situation. But if there is even a slight pause, after the attacker has been neutralized, then watch out.

chickelit said...

Or better, me saying in Mr. Ed voice what Trump says but saying it to you.

Your handle is way too long for radio comedy. Do you have a favorite (short) nickname? Jelly?

Bruce Hayden said...

The magic of 20 ft is that that is the Tueller Drill distance. At that distance, someone can rush you and cover the distance in maybe a second. and a half or so. Which is roughly the time it takes for someone reasonably trained to draw their weapon, aim it, and start firing. This is well enough documented, and wide enough taught, that a decent defense attorney can usually prevent the prosecutor from claiming that maybe you could have waited longer to shoot.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill

Szoszolo said...

"This is well enough documented, and wide enough taught, that a decent defense attorney can usually prevent the prosecutor from claiming that maybe you could have waited longer to shoot."

I hope I never have to test the truth of this, but I've been told that if the guy is found within 21 ft of wherever you were (inside your home) when you fired, no cop is going to arrest you, so it shouldn't even get to the point of filing charges.

But I live in a place so anti-gun that even an asst district attorney I know has been denied a carry permit. If you have a permit and you're out and about, it may be harder to prove how much distance there was between you.

Kevin said...

"Why didn't you shoot him in the leg?"

You know how you go to the range and most people are shooting at targets of a head and body, but that one woman is shooting at a full body target and she’s calmly putting solid groupings into each leg?

She’s the cop.

Kevin said...

"Why didn't you shoot him in the leg?"

Better yet, why didn’t the cop shoot the chain out of his hands?

clint said...

Wow.

Watching the cop's car recede into the distance is striking.

And the PoV makes it impossible to tell what might be behind the officer.

Really, really impressive discipline from start to finish.

Matt Sablan said...

You SWEEP the leg, not shoot it.

Matt Sablan said...

"If that happened to a civilian in a self defense shooting, they could potentially lose their claim to self defense at the point when the threat is neutralized, and they are no longer in imminent danger of death or great bodily injury."

-- See, "The Stranger."

Nobody said...

Is that kind of the same thing that the Maddow fan who shot up the softball game said?

I am sure that this is Trump’s fault, not that of the media.

Nobody said...

Better yet, why didn’t the cop shoot the chain out of his hands?

I’ve seen tougher shots made in movies all the time!

Kevin said...

The guy is obviously a Lifelong Republican.

Hates Trump.

Wants people back in chains.

Quaestor said...

...but that one woman is shooting at a full body target and she’s calmly putting solid groupings into each leg?

And getting the femoral artery each time.

Tank said...

The cop needs to watch the Ballad of Buster Scruggs, you just shoot his fingers off one by one, then he can't hold the chain.

Paul said...

Curious George said... "Play stupid games, win stupid prizes."

In this case he won 9mm prizes and became a Darwin Award winner.

Narr said...

So if the markswoman lady cop had been the one attacked, she would have handled it better-if the attacker had been a static range target.

Narr
I can go with that

DanTheMan said...

>> And that is why they are often taught to empty their magazine.

Will you PLEASE stop spreading this crap? It's just not true.

Szoszolo said...

"but that one woman is shooting at a full body target and she’s calmly putting solid groupings into each leg?

"She’s the cop."

We wish. The cops and sons of cops I've talked to agree that most cops don't practice often and as a result don't shoot very well. They qualify and requalify however often their department requires it, but they're not at the range much the rest of the time.

It's an incredibly hard job and I admire them. But unless they're on the SWAT team, most of them aren't sharpshooters (again, per cops I know).

Gojuplyr831@gmail.com said...

Cop should have had Lone Ranger training. He always shot the weapon out of the other guy's hand without hitting his hand.

DanTheMan said...

>> They qualify and requalify however often their department requires it, but they're not at the range much the rest of the time.

This is true, in my experience.

The Drill SGT said...

Beyond the obvious advice about center of mass and multiple shoots, It's not a great idea to go beyond the point where the suspect drops.

As one cop told me: "son, every round you fire has at least one lawyer's name attached. A perfectly good shoot of the suspect can turn bad for you if you put round 10 and 11 into some little old lady looking out her window."

TJM said...

Man, these Dems are really out of control. Why all that hate?

Bruce Hayden said...

Talking guns and practice, heading back to the range. Tuesday I received 5 15 round magazines in the mail Tuesday for my 10 mm bear gun. I haven’t been shooting it recently very much, because the magazines I had are typically loaded up with solid cast and JHP rounds, which cost way too much to practice with, and are a pain to unload and reload. Hence the new magazines. Finally found a source for less expensive FMJ ammunition- it is made in Stevensville, fairly close to Missoula, and, hence lower transportation costs. I expect that probably one of the highest concentration of active 10 mm users in the country reside in the arc from maybe Bozeman through Butte, Missoula, and arcing up to Kallispell, due the highest concentration of brown bears in the lower 48 (and hence several manufacturers of 10 mm, including Buffalo Bore a bit further south on US 93 in Salmon, ID).So I headed to the range Wed, but got there just as the trap shooters took over (it is the trap club, after all, and have their shoots Wed and Sun).

I will, of course, be trying out this new 10 mm FMJ range ammo, but the other thing I want to try is .40 S&W ammunition, which is significantly less expensive than 10 mm. .40 S&W is essentially cut down 10 mm, apparently created because a lot of female FBI agents weren’t able to handle 10 mm. .40 S&W doesn’t work in some 10 mm handguns, but I ended up with the one where it supposedly works the best. We shall see.

Jim at said...

Classy blog.

Classy commentors.


Light the fuse, boy.
Let's dance.

Szoszolo said...

"apparently created because a lot of female FBI agents weren’t able to handle 10 mm."

@Bruce Hayden. Interesting. Do you know whether it was because of the recoil or because of the muzzle flip? I'm surprised there's that much difference in kick between 10 mm and .40 cal. I'm very small and no longer young, but I can handle the recoil on .40 cal. (.45ACP ... not so much.) Seems odd that highly motivated FBI agents wouldn't just keep practicing to build up the strength to handle 10 mm.

The Drill SGT said...

"apparently created because a lot of female FBI agents weren’t able to handle 10 mm."

As an Army officer, (math geek, not lawyer), I considered the FBI in the early 80's. Put an application in, and took their weapons PT test, which I suspect was designed to triage female candidates.

1. how many times can you pull the trigger on this pistol in 60 seconds
2. how many times can you pump this 12 gauge in a minute
3. hold this scoped M-14 on target in a standing position for 2 minutes

ultimately stayed in, and did not pursue...