April 16, 2019

"Its construction began in the year 1163 and ended in 1345. It's time to say goodbye to your oratory polytheism."

That's the translation — from French — of the words of a "poster" that has appeared on line. It was — if we are to believe the Terrorism Research & Analysis Consortium — put up by Al-Muntasir, which is, we're told, affiliated with ISIS. Reported in The Daily Mail, with this image:



The non-French writing at the bottom says, we're told, "Have a good day."

I note:

1. It is not claiming credit for the destruction, so that it makes me more likely to believe what the initial reports on the fire speculated: It was an accident, perhaps related to the restoration project.

2. Though The Daily Mail says "the jihadists celebrated," the poster does not have to be read as a celebration. It doesn't say we're glad the cathedral burned. There are no images of jihadists dancing in the street or on rooftops.

3. The text doesn't say the fire was a good thing, only that its burning provides an occasion to reflect on the modern-day practice of adhering to a very old form of religion. A building from the middle ages went up in flames. It hasn't survived in the modern world. You should see that your religion is also a medieval construction. We're in modern times now. Let go of what doesn't fit anymore.

4. Let go of the medieval form of a great religion is something that non-Muslims say to Muslims all the time. If it's bad to say that, then don't say that. But maybe it's only bad to say it at the very time of the destruction of a great old monument or only when you are associated with people who themselves engage in the destruction of monuments.

5. But the poster implies that old things pass away, but it doesn't say old monuments should be destroyed, and it doesn't say put all old religion in the category of things it's time to say goodbye to. It singles out one sort of religion: "oratory polytheism." Presumably, that refers — critically — to Catholicism.

6. Google tells me that the phrase "oratory polytheism" has only been used on line in connection with this poster. The French is "oratoirepolythéiste." The Google translate device offers nothing for the single word and suggests adding a space. It translates "oratoire polythéiste" as "polytheistic oratory," which is easier to make sense of than "oratory polytheism." I understand the objection to polytheism and the way it is used to describe Catholicism (or all Christianity). It's harder to understand the problem with "oratory."

7. Perhaps "oratoire," the French word, relates to the meaning of the English word "oratory" that is — from the OED — "A place of prayer; a room or building for private worship, esp., in the Christian Church, a small chapel or shrine in or attached to a house, monastery, church." In this light, the translation shouldn't be "It's time to say goodbye to your oratory polytheism," but "It's time to say goodbye to your polytheistic chapel."

8. The Daily Mail doesn't take note of the hashtag in the upper left corner of the postcard: #Bonne Journée. That does mean "Have a good day," so now I'm not sure that the writing at the bottom of the poster translates to "Have a good day." I presume that is Arabic. Can anyone translate?

127 comments:

MD Greene said...

Notre Dame is about as Catholic an institution as Disneyland. France is a post-Christian country with some religious immigrants. Why would Islamic people care?

tcrosse said...

Is oratory used in the sense of speech, or in its other sense of prayer, a place of prayer, or a group devoted to prayer?

janetrae said...

The "polytheism" remark is denigrating to Christians who believe in one God manifesting in 3 persons. Notre Dame was sacred, however Disneyfied secular France may have treated it. The poster is anti-Christian and represents a "ha-ha, we won" moment for whoever put it up.

iowan2 said...

Parsing a translation of a message that has zero context. This is navel gazing cubed.

Sebastian said...

"Let go of the medieval form of a great religion is something that non-Muslims say to Muslims all the time."

Huh? Who are these non-Muslims who say that to any Muslims? Does any non-Muslim in America say anything to any Muslims about their faith at all?

Of course, there are non-Muslims who say that Islam is inherently violent and misogynist--mostly in Europe. They criticize Islam as such and the barbarism characteristic of most Islamic societies, not the "medieval form of a great religion."

The people whose work I have read who make the anti-medieval argument are mostly Muslim intellectuals.

C Hayes said...

Doesn't seem to me like there's a counterpart to Notre Dame (in terms of scale and magnificence) in the world, except maybe St. Peters in Rome.
Wonder why that is?
Call it "backward" or "ancient" or even "not relevant" all you wish, the fruits of this religion benefited and still benefit the whole world, whether you acknowledge it or not.
Imperfectly manifested by humans throughout the centuries, for sure, but all of Western law, scientific thinking, art and culture rests on the bedrock of this religion. We are far afield now, but this is a fact.
And yes, i agree the burning of this cathedral is a metaphor for the West as it is currently. What the West decides to do next will be interesting.

Gahrie said...

I'm sure you will you will go right on being charitable to Muslims even as they throw your son from the roof and put you in purdah.

Pachydermis2 said...

Although jihadists have certainly done things of this sort (see bombing of the Al Askari mosque in Samarra that really threw Iraq into chaos and strife) this seems low tech and mundane. You'd expect more from even the enfeebled remnants of ISIS/Al Queda.

There is a spectrum of culpability that runs from Nobody's Fault, to shoddy construction work, to disgruntled worker (crazy worker is in there somewhere) to low skills lone wolf.

I think it will be on the milder end. I'm also glad I don't have to investigate this as it will no doubt be the font of conspiracy theory for the foreseeable future.

TW

Leland said...

Was it not being reconstructed at the time of the fire? Construction is ongoing and will continue to be.

Caroline said...

I had a similar thought, pondering the catastrophic blaze: now, France has a fitting monument to Faith in the West. “A West that denies its faith, it’s history, it’s roots, and it’s identity is destined for contempt, for death, for disappearance.” —Cardinal Sarah, Apr 5, 2019.
Something cosmic happened in Paris yesterday. Let those with eyes to see, see.

Sebastian said...

Of course, serious Muslims do and should oppose Catholic "polytheism."

But Catholic decline needs no Muslim help. The Church collapsed long before the church burned.

Caroline said...

Yeesh. Autocorrect butchered the grammar in the above quote. ITS not it’s.

mccullough said...

Islam is simpler than Catholicism. The Trinity is a difficult concept. God becoming man, etc.

Oratory polytheism is an interesting way to describe Catholicism.

Of course, simple isn’t necessarily better. But it’s easier to follow.

robother said...

Polytheism is a central critique of Catholicsm from early Islam (and even reflects earlier doctrinal battles within the Christian tradition.) It rejects the Trinity as inconsistent with the monotheism of the Old Testament. But the cult of Mary, the cult of local saints, the ascription of power to relics and images, all are viewed as betrayals of monotheism, as continuation of the polytheism of the Western European tribes that converted to Christianity. And, of course, all are prominent features in the Cathedral of Notre Dame.

The problem with religious signs and portents is that their meaning is determined by the faith of the observer.

Paul said...

"A building from the middle ages went up in flames. It hasn't survived in the modern world. You should see that your religion is also a medieval construction. We're in modern times now. Let go of what doesn't fit anymore."

So if older Mosques burn down, wouldn't that be the same thing? Isn't Islam a religion of 'medieval construction'?

Gahrie said...

Doesn't seem to me like there's a counterpart to Notre Dame (in terms of scale and magnificence) in the world, except maybe St. Peters in Rome.

Taj Mahal

Ankor Wat

Nichevo said...

2. Though The Daily Mail says "the jihadists celebrated," the poster does not have to be read as a celebration.


You're dumber than I thought. Or of course merely playing that way.

I recently wrote a couplet that when a man has a woman alone and tells her to take off her clothes, she knows (no matter where she's from) that she's about to get fucked and the question is only one of degree.

*You* would be thinking, Oh, now he's going to have me pose for life drawings! Or maybe, my clothes are infested with lice, how terrible! What a nice man. Maybe I should reward him with sex. How convenient that my clothes are off!

mccullough said...

Islam is stuck in 630 AD.

Updating it to the Middle Ages would be progress.

FIDO said...

A few observations

-Last time the Muslims decided to show off dancing at the destruction of a monument, Afghanistan was ruined, Iraq was overthrown, Iran was put in gold shackles that still has them screaming in agony, Lybia fell, and Syria kicked off its fun Fridays.

Muslims may have learned some mmm...empathy. It usually takes a club to teach them any. Or the ability to hire some PR flaks.

And/or (more likely 'and')

Multicultural Media Marxists, mad at Monotheistic Moderates who mock their madness, maliciously and mendaciously modify the messages to minimize Muslim merriment.

-Suspicion of Muslims in this regard is not an unreasonable starting point, any more than thinking that a pedophile with a child might not have the kids best interests in mind. They have a really bad history this way and they are owed very little benefit of the doubt. Innocent until proven guilty, but hey...the usual suspects generally are the ones who did it.

They should be examined rigorously but only prosecuted with further evidence.

-Also, look for a suicide in the work crew. If this was a French guy, he is going to off himself if he made and knew about this kind of mistake. Heck, there might be a couple of them.


PaulK said...

In 1992 in Egypt, in a discussion over coffee with a Muslim merchant, I came to understand that he believed that Christians worshiped three gods. He mixed Mary, the mother of the Lord, confusingly with the Holy Spirit. So maybe he believed that there are more than three.

Thus the phrase "oratory polytheism" or calling Christians polytheist is not surprising.

CWJ said...

It doesn't say goodbye to old things. Rather it says goodbye to preaching one of the central tenets (misunderstood) of Christianity. Given this gratuitous shot, points 3, 4 & 5 are a stretch, and may speak more to Althouse's frame of mind than to the poster's intent. The historical dates are just as easily interpreted as time doesn't matter, Islam will triumph in the end. See also Hagia Sophia.

chuck said...

> Islam is stuck in 630 AD.

More like 1000 AD I think. It stagnated when most of the conquered territories had converted, the leaven of diversity and history was gone.

Fernandinande said...

polytheistic chapel

That makes sense. The weird translation reminds me of the occasional use of obscure words, apparently pulled out of some dictionary, at "engrish.com".

FIDO said...

Please to correct slightly.

Islam is not a Great Religion in a modern form either to me and many others.

It conflicts directly with my...and even more so Madam Althouse's values. It has shown no ability to empathize with any institutions not its own (which shows its close ties to Marxism and the current mutation of Academia) and actively works to destroy them with monument destruction, burning of texts, and oppression and murder.

Ergo I owe it no love in any version.

I owe its members legal protections and civility, but I owe that to everybody.

mockturtle said...

As when analyzing Bob Dylan's lyrics, sometimes there is just no there there.

Kay said...

I guess yesterday wasn’t such a slow news day afterall.

Freeman Hunt said...

Google translate says the Arabic in the middle says, "according penalty" or "penalty according to." Fitting penalty?

gilbar said...

Why would Islamic people care?

Of COURSE Islamic people care; and mourn the loss of the building.
Like the Hagia Sophia, it was on its way to becoming a Great, and Respected, Mosque

Dave Begley said...

I can translate the Arabic at the bottom: We're coming for you.

Freeman Hunt said...

Using their online dictionary with more words, "Appropriate requital."

Not very nice.

mccullough said...

There are 1.6 billion Muslims in the world.

It’s a major religion. It’s not a great religion unless great means major. In that case, Hitler was a great man as Farrakhan said. So were Stalin and Mao.

Fernandinande said...

It's *almost* like the words on the poster were written by someone who is a native speaker of some lingo other than French or English.

gilbar said...

PaulK said... So maybe he believed that there are more than three.
I'm sure they do. Can't see a devout Moslem being okay with praying to Saints

Leland said...

Internal pictures look fairly good. Notre Dame will be restored. I'd say "have faith", but I understand many do not.

Michael K said...

There is a very good book, called "For the Glory of God," by Rodney Stark which explains pretty well, I think, why Islam fails at science and progress. Muslims believe that Allah is perfect and all wise. Nobody has the right to inquire about anything to do with Allah. As a result, there is very little inquiry about the world.

Christianity, on the other hand, encourages inquiry about all things. In the Middle Ages, there was resistance to such things as the heliocentric universe but that was not based on the religion, itself, so much as on the Church's backwardness at the time. Galileo did not have his head chopped off.

There were quite a few would-be scientists killed by Janissaries and Sultans. That is a good reason why Islam is still trapped in the 7th century,.

MadisonMan said...

I found Notre Dame a very relaxing and holy spot. A good place to sit, pray, and reflect, and also be awestruck in construction by men for the glory of God.

That non-Christians and atheists found it impressive (or not) doesn't make it a polytheistic building, unless you have the point of view that you should control the thoughts of everyone who doesn't follow your tenets.

Jon Burack said...

It may be an accident, but I saw that explanation offered while the place was still engulfed in flames. I do not see how any such assessment could have been possible. It's a very big building, and it will take time to come to that conclusion.

Meanwhile, as I posted on the earlier entry, this article was published in MEF a day BEFORE the fire.

https://www.meforum.org/58238/european-churches

It describes one aspect of the slow-moving dhimmitude descending on Europe. I see no reason to modify that judgment no matter what this fire's cause is determined to be.

holdfast said...

So they probably didn’t do it, but they are still asshole.

The Cracker Emcee Refulgent said...

"But Catholic decline needs no Muslim help. The Church collapsed long before the church burned."

As with heterosexual marriage, the Catholic church's wounds are largely self-inflicted. One thing I won't blame on the Muzzies. Indeed, the same malaise is coming for them as soon as they can get the cable to work.

Sally327 said...

If you're looking to Muslims for help in understanding the Christian faith generally or Catholic doctrine specifically you might want to keep on looking. Anyway, I'm just as qualified as a Muslim to explicate this particular event and I say:

To everything (turn, turn, turn)
There is a season (turn, turn, turn)
And a time to every purpose, under heaven
A time to build up, a time to break down
A time to dance, a time to mourn
A time to cast away stones, a time to gather stones together...

mockturtle said...

There are 1.6 billion Muslims in the world.

It’s a major religion. It’s not a great religion unless great means major. In that case, Hitler was a great man as Farrakhan said. So were Stalin and Mao.


Great does not imply good. IMO, it describes the relative impact the person had on events and history. So, by that criterion, Hitler, Stalin and Mao were in fact great men. And Islam is a great religion. Think quantitative rather than qualitative.

FIDO said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
tim in vermont said...

As when analyzing Bob Dylan's lyrics, sometimes there is just no there there

Sure. If you can’t see it, it doesn’t exist.

Jon Burack said...

Michael K,
Good points about Christianity being more open to science. However, I do think Islam was more open at times also than you suggest. In any case, I don't think you get it quite right about Galileo. The Church did oppose him on theological grounds, not on his heliocentric science per se. It pointed to Bible passages that contradicted a sun-centered theory. He tried to get the Church to see that it had to alter its interpretation of these passages if science proved the laws of nature differed from their literal meaning. He and they both accepted the Bible as the absolutely true word of God. The differences was in how to interpret that word. The Pope and Cardinal Bellarmine both in different ways told him if he could ABSOLUTELY prove his theory, then and only then, they'd have to rethink the Bible passages. In fact, Galileo could not conclusively prove his claims - that could not be done without Kepler and Newton. So you are right, Christianity was open to science, but it was even in this incident. Still, the Church was foolish not to take Galileo's advice about how to interpret Scripture, which it finally did in the 1800s. But other Christians throughout Europe did find Galileo's ideas compatible with their faith (as he did, too).

Seeing Red said...

But the poster implies that old things pass away, but it doesn't say old monuments should be destroyed.

If they could destroy the antiquities of Egypt, they would.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Islam is incompatible with other religions, Western Civilization, with freedom. It has been 'at war' with the rest of the world and with the west for over a thousand years. Open warfare and stealth warfare, as is occurring now.

Perhaps it is time we took them seriously and act accordingly.

buwaya said...

Nothing is ever truly done with, as human nature changes, if at all, very slowly.
Everything comes back around, and some conflicts are perpetual.
Christendom vs Islam is one of these perpetual conflicts, or at least a very slow-moving one that is far from over.

The cyclical view of history has a lot going for it.

JHapp said...

Creating a religion is easy and a few man made religions are pretty good. Moses would turn his back and some anomaly would turn up. The difficult job is too keep a religion true to what God instructed till judgement day.

Partridge said...

Thw Arabic at the bottom says, essentially, "Just recompense" or "Fitting repayment."

tim in vermont said...

The probable attack was uncovered in Paris on Sunday morning, at about 7 a.m., but the average citizen did not hear about it until Wednesday when French news outlets reported it as the confiscation of a car filled with seven propane tanks on a street near Notre Dame cathedral. - Daily Beast, Sept 2016

This is kind of interesting right here from the same article in 2016 about that attempt on the cathedral:

ISIS’s targets around the world are the mushrikin, or polytheists, who do not fall under the category of people with a valid covenant, or non-Muslims who believe in the one true God and are thus eligible to inhabit in Muslim lands in a state of dhimmah, second- or third-class citizenship, provided they abide by sharia law and pay jizya, the tax levied against them.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/an-isis-plot-to-blow-up-notre-dame-cathedraland-rule-the-world

mockturtle said...

As when analyzing Bob Dylan's lyrics, sometimes there is just no there there

Sure. If you can’t see it, it doesn’t exist.


Nobody: Bob Dylan, himself, admitted that his lyrics don't really have any deep meaning and that people apply whatever meanings they want. [From an old interview on 60 Minutes.

Dave Begley said...

Just recompense. Fitting repayment. According penalty. We're coming for you.

Same thing.

These people will never stop. War, murder and mayhem is in their DNA. What other "religion" encourages people to become suicide bombers?

They need to go away and stick to themselves. Stop bothering us.

tim in vermont said...

As one who was raised a Christian, but not a Catholic, it has always seemed to me that the Catholics kind of play fast and loose with the Ten Commandments. Not just the part about worshiping only the one God, and graven images, but even the party about “Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife, nor his ass."

Dave Begley said...

According to this polytheist test, then Muslims should leave Jews alone.

Ann Althouse said...

"Doesn't seem to me like there's a counterpart to Notre Dame (in terms of scale and magnificence) in the world, except maybe St. Peters in Rome."

You're wrong. What's distinctive about it is the location and the history. It's not one of the biggest churches in the world. It's not on the top 20 lists of churches by size. St. Peter's is much larger than the others.

Even among cathedrals in France, it is only the 5th largest.

It is not considered the most beautiful of the French cathedrals. That would be Chartres. On a list of French cathedrals by beauty, I don't know where it would be, but it's certainly not first, and it is probably not second or third. (And by "is," I mean before the firre.)

tim in vermont said...

Bob Dylan, himself, admitted that his lyrics don't really have any deep meaning and that people apply whatever meanings they want.

That’s an old debate, but I don’t restrict the meaning of art to the intention of the artist ever. It’s way too limiting. Like you get your art decoder ring with your college degree, and the first time you use it, it says “Eat more Ovaltine."

buwaya said...

Science was largely irrelevant. Unless you want to stretch "science" into something meaningless.

European technology, that truly mattered in civilization-wide conflict, was not created by scientists but by blacksmiths, or their equivalent. Sonetimes it was created by military NCO's, professional soldiers, or sailing masters, and the details of this sort of thing are largely lost. Almost all of this was collective, evolutionary, and anonymous.

It was not science as we know it that increased agricultural productivity in Europe, or created the sailing ships that took Europeans on their explosion of global conquest, nor did it create the military systems that dominated global battlefields.

It certainly had nothing to do with Cortes at the battle of Otumba, his men facing off against the Aztecs at swords-length, and winning it hand-to-hand.

Fernandinande said...

play fast and loose with the Ten Commandments.

"My sympathies in the matter were somewhat reduced when I heard that the cathedral was a repository for the crown of thorns from Christ's crucifixion plus a fragment of the true cross plus one of the holy nails which held Christ to the cross. I guess my Presbyterian background is showing but the word "idolatory" did spring to my mind."

Ann Althouse said...

"Nobody: Bob Dylan, himself, admitted that his lyrics don't really have any deep meaning and that people apply whatever meanings they want. [From an old interview on 60 Minutes."

If you take his statements in interviews at face value, you obviously don't know much about Bob Dylan!

mockturtle said...

If you take his statements in interviews at face value, you obviously don't know much about Bob Dylan!

You're probably right about that. ;-)

tim in vermont said...

"According to this polytheist test, then Muslims should leave Jews alone"

non-Muslims who believe in the one true God and are thus eligible to inhabit in Muslim lands in a state of dhimmah, second- or third-class citizenship

So sure, if they hand over the government of Israel to their rightful lords and masters, then they’re good to go.

Muslims have a deep sense of their right to rule, just like liberals who are so upset about Trump.

tim in vermont said...

My favorite Dylan quote was when somebody asked him if “A Hard Rain’s Gonna Fall” was about nuclear war. He said “No, man, it’s about rain!"

Dave Begley said...

I propose a summit between Islam and the West.

The goal: Islam needs to leave us alone and stop bothering us.

What's so hard about that?

Known Unknown said...

"It's time to say goodbye" is the tell. Don't be so obtuse.

This does not mean I believe it was a terrorist attack from Islam. But I do believe that some in the Islamic world are joyful over Notre Dame's semi-destruction.

Ken B said...

Just checking here. You wrote a long piece explaining why it isn’t celebratory, and then asked for help understanding the words? Is that right? Because I don’t want to write a long comment accusing you of irenic vacuity until I understand your words.

Of course it is celebratory, and the “oratory” in the sense of rhetoric is not a correct translation. It refers to a chapel, usually a small one.

tim in vermont said...

What's so hard about that?

Now that we are the worlds biggest oil producer, and are sitting on larger potential reserves, including a trillion barrels in the Canadian oil sands, we should be able to cut a deal. The Arab world has a lot of legitimate beefs with the West, including the Treaty of Versailles where Churchill carved up the Ottoman Empire free hand with a fountain pen. If they see Islam as an effective weapon, I can’t blame them. I can blame Europe for folding so easily though.

mccullough said...

Islam is at war with itself. Most Muslim terrorism is against other Muslims.

The West should have sealed itself off from Muslim immigration. But it didn’t.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

I propose a summit between Islam and the West.

The goal: Islam needs to leave us alone and stop bothering us.

What's so hard about that?


And when they say "No!....fuck off kafir...disbeliever!!!" As they will and as they have for a thousand years.....

What is your plan then? Do you even have a plan?

tim in vermont said...

I know from the French course “French in Action” available free on the internet! that Chartres is their cultural centerpiece. They study it in school, take trips there, etc.

I am going to Paris in a couple of weeks in a long planned trip to polish my French. So I guess I will have to check out the latest attraction.

Dave Begley said...

DBQ

That was sarcasm by me. It just points out how this thing will never stop. Too many people inside Islam want to kill and destroy. It is in their DNA.

The better solution is containment. Just like was proposed in that famous foreign policy article by Mr. X about the Russians. Contain them to their own countries.

Anonymous said...

4. Let go of the medieval form of a great religion is something that non-Muslims say to Muslims all the time. If it's bad to say that, then don't say that. But maybe it's only bad to say it at the very time of the destruction of a great old monument or only when you are associated with people who themselves engage in the destruction of monuments.

Or maybe it's never "bad" to say that. You're excluding whole obvious categories of conditions here: people who believe to be The Truth what other people consider a "medieval form of a great religion". Makes perfect sense to me that Christians who believe in a medieval form of their religion would tell Muslims who believe in a medieval form of their religion that it would be a good thing for them to "let it go", and vice-versa. Or people who don't think the medieval form of religion X causes anybody any problems these days, but do think that the medieval form of religion Y does.

Bad manners in some situations, perhaps, but not *wrong* in any other sense.

There may be a viewpoint or two from which it would be logically contradictory or hypocritical to "say that", but I don't get the impression they're the ones you're admonishing. Looks more like one of your etiquette lessons based on the assumption that everybody in the world shares (or should share!) the viewpoint of de-racinated post-Christians moralists.

Lloyd W. Robertson said...

From a Muslim perspective, Catholics are even more polytheistic than Protestants? I guess that makes sense. In one of his great diplomatic moments (he often tried to win by diplomacy before resorting to war) he wrote to a Muslim leader: like you, and unlike the Christians, I believe in one God.

Jim S. said...

Islam began by rejecting the many gods in favor of one. So when they encountered the Trinity, they took it as reaffirming polytheism, since it holds that God is singular in one sense and plural in another sense. Many Muslim laypeople think the Trinity is the Father, Mary, and Jesus (the Son), implying that the first two engaged in carnal relations to produce the third, much like many of the polytheistic religions they had rejected. That's why "polytheism" is the traditional criticism of Christianity from Islam. So, the text does seem to be celebratory to me: they are using it as some kind of reason to reject Christianity in favor of Islam ("It's time to say goodbye to your oratory polytheism").

Anonymous said...

CWJ: Given this gratuitous shot, points 3, 4 & 5 are a stretch, and may speak more to Althouse's frame of mind than to the poster's intent.

Ayup.

Known Unknown said...

The Arabic actually says "Some old building did something."

Dust Bunny Queen said...

@ Dave....sorry. My sarcasm meter must be broken.

The main issue between Muslims and Christianity...in general. Is that the Muslims refuse to allow others to have their own beliefs. Insist that it is their way or the highway. Bend to them or die.

There is no middle ground in the Radical Islamists world view.

I'm not much of a "Christian" or believer. I was raised as a Roman Catholic and admit that the whole concept of the Trinity baffled me. The Nun's couldn't explain it. The Priest couldn't explain the three in one concept. So I do understand that the Muslims don't get it either and don't like the idea of multiple religious figures.

That is not an excuse for killing people who don't agree with your religion of Islam.

I am a live and let live kind of person...UNTIL.. there are people wanting to kill me and tell me what to do, how to live...that then is a legitimate excuse for pre-emptive action.

Containment is not a solution. Too late, when you have voluntarily let the snakes live in your own house and then suddenly realize they are venomous.

Etienne said...

"oratory polytheism." Presumably, that refers — critically — to Catholicism.

If so, it completely misunderstands the term polytheism. Catholicism is an Abrahamic religion. Monotheistic like the multiple Moslem religions.

FIDO said...

We don't have evidence. We need to rebuild.

Alas the derth of craftsmen. And most artists are Lefty sorts who hate Catholicism and will jack up their prices accordingly.

tim in vermont said...

They study it in school, take trips there, etc.

And apparently, if my sources are to be believed, French girls lecture their American boyfriends on its wonders.

Anonymous said...

Sebastian to AA: "Let go of the medieval form of a great religion is something that non-Muslims say to Muslims all the time."

Huh? Who are these non-Muslims who say that to any Muslims? Does any non-Muslim in America say anything to any Muslims about their faith at all?


I seem to recall a lot of Americans running around spouting off about how Islam needs to modernize, or "Islam needs a reformation", yadda yadda yadda. Lotta neocon types, iirc. Probably still out there.

Unlike Althouse, I only note the ignorance or silliness that informed some of these self-appointed expert givers-of-advice to Muslims. Got no problem per se with anybody dissing anybody else's beliefs.

tim in vermont said...

If so, it completely misunderstands the term polytheism...

As carefully defined by the Catholic Church. Christianity not so much conquered the Roman Empire, but subsumed it. To a non Catholic who has ever been to Italy, one can see that Roman culture, which includes lots of statues of gods and demigods, lives on there. As a Catholic, I suppose you could be blind to it.

Sebastian said...

@Angle: "I seem to recall a lot of Americans running around spouting off about how Islam needs to modernize, or "Islam needs a reformation", yadda yadda yadda. Lotta neocon types, iirc. Probably still out there."

Fine, there were some. Of course, "Islam needs a Reformation" was itself a nice PC way to deal with Muslim barbarism.

But "I seem to recall . . . Probably still out there" is a little different from "something that non-Muslims say to Muslims all the time."

tim in vermont said...

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-04-16/internet-erupts-speculation-about-who-started-notre-dame-cathedral-fire

Video of a “Yellow Vest” on the tower scaffolding a half hour after the fire started. No word as to whether he was carrying bleach and rope though.

Stephen A. Meigs said...

That Titanic (en route from Cherbourg and Southampton to New York) sank on the anniversary of Lincoln's death is just the sort of nonsense that serial-killer assassin mass murderers tend to find significant. Wikipedia suggests Hurricane Hugo is the most intense hurricane to hit the east coast north of Florida since 1898. A 95-foot high wave from Hugo severely battered the QE2 on a trip from Cherbourg and Southampton to New York. And on September 22, 1989, the anniversary of an attempt on Gerald Ford and exactly four years before Big Bayou Canot, it made landfall slightly north of Charleston, where the 2015 church massacre happened. Hugo's Quasimodo wasn't a Chad. The signs suggest the April 15 fire could be a deliberate attempt to create mummery. But the fog of randomness makes it hard to tell absolutely for sure--that's just how it is with interpreting signs of no significance whatsoever except a cult of sodomizing murderers likes to pretend otherwise when sodomizing their zombie slaves so that they will feel creating mayhem has some particular higher mystical purpose so they will falsely look clean and pretty-kitty and like they can hate while feeling love for their sodomizer, something you can't do if you're love is purely fake and caused by nasty addicting love potion semen chemicals (prostaglandins? anandamide?) absorbed in the digestive system whence they travel to the brains effecting (fake) love and (perhaps) an anadamide-like-induced sense of a higher mystical significance to that which has no intrinsic significance spiritual or otherwise and terror and cowardice from the PGE2 making being tortured more painful.

Not that all torture and terror are necessarily bad. In a world where human-sacrifice priestesses kill with natural hate to sexually get off while feeling love in a way that those who can't feel hate can't, getting off more on torture than killing can reduce the killing rate as can terrorizing the next victims with what's going to happen to them (by making them watch the preceding victims) before killing them rather than killing them less-one-at-a-time. Certainly discriminating sex from sodomy gives humans an option that our cloacal ancestors didn't have. But this requires moral discrimination. Without moral discrimination lizard morals (including a healthy respect for torture and terror) are an alternative option, a more important option for our cloacal Pelycosaur, etc., ancestors than for us, presumably, but who is to say how things will go? Cats are mammals and they certainly haven't forgotten lizard morals. And girls are a little like the rabbit of Caerbannog--perhaps soft and gentle appearing on the outside, but not without (some) savage cruel cat on the inside. Sure, we don't need tales of Jurassic Park and Velociraptors to see a reptile dominated world.... but it's also a primeval part of our nature. A primeval part which if widely ignored will make it easier for zombifying serial killers, etc., to manipulate that part of ourselves with lies and deceptions whose dangers are only slightly less primeval. Slightly less primeval still is all the "paranoid", etc., insane-looking emotions that are defenses against such dangers, defenses that becomes quite relevant and useful to humanity and the greater beauty in proportion to the prevalence of zombies and their overlords.

Jon said...

I saw a report on Insty that the 3 rose windows survived.

tim in vermont said...

Time columnist Christopher J. Hale set off a firestorm of speculation when he tweeted that a friend who works at the cathedral told him “cathedral staff said the fire was intentionally set”…

Also from the ZeroHedge article. But remember that the site is anti-Clinton and therefore funded by Putin.

Stephen A. Meigs said...

The mistake people tend to make is to think the important conspiracies are from governments and the economically powerful. They mostly don't understand the zombie phenomenon, and so they posit some political or economic power must be behind forcing people to kill for seemingly frivolous reasons. That said, zombie cultists intuitively know this, and so to increase confusion they love to mix themselves up with assassinations and intelligence agencies if they can manage it. They'll shoot Reagan if they can--not because of any geopolitical purpose but because he was a lifeguard, etc. And if they can get the powers that be to get Christine Surma (she apparently was in a fake movie like in Operation Argo) on the Tonight Show on the 100th anniversary of the Mill River Flood and on the same day murder a young woman in some tiny town in the middle of nowhere where President Hayes got jolted by a lightning bolt, they'll do that too. And, who knows, perhaps they'll try to bullshit (Althousian sense) and compromise a few of the Soviet agents who were hanging out where persons of interest in the Lyon sisters case worked and lived, the sort of thing that can create dangerous pointless tensions between nations.

Nichevo said...

Chatted with Francois in the kitchen this morning-desolé, quel tragique, how we feel for you-and he said two interesting things.

One, LVMH, the cognac and handbag luxury combine (Louis Vuitton Moet Hennessey, IIRC), has donated 300 *million* (euros, I guess) to reconstruction of the church and that it will be bigger than ever.

Two, that he hopes it wasn't the gilets jaunes that did it.

I raised my eyebrows and said I hoped it wasn't ANYBODY that did it. His eyes widened and he said You're right!

The French may have their own usual suspects. They are so nonreligious that even our casual "Thank God it's Friday" sets them back a bit. Laïcité, I think they call it. Religion for him and many is a "them" thing. They may not even understand that Islam is an issue. Just a bunch of funny brown people who work cheap.

Etienne said...

The feminine "Bonne Journée" as opposed to the masculine "Bon Jour", or more accurately "Bonjour" has a somewhat hidden meaning.

When you come together, you say "Bonjour" but when you separate, you say "Bonne Journée".

I know I'm saying something everyone knows, but maybe entertain the fringes.

AlbertAnonymous said...

“... the non-French writing at the bottom”

Are the Germans bombing Pearl Harbor again?

Etienne said...

Where were these bastards when they were begging for people to help with the restoration.

Although, at least now with all that rotten wood out of the way, some real Chinese steel can be brought in and covered with simulated wood.

hombre said...

Some people did something. Or some people wish they had done something. Or some people are glad about something. In the world of the progressive left the latter two if applied to people who are not progressive lefties are often the same as the first.

Not in this case, however, because the “people” are Muslims. Same with 9/11 apparently.

Anonymous said...

Nobody: To a non Catholic who has ever been to Italy, one can see that Roman culture, which includes lots of statues of gods and demigods, lives on there. As a Catholic, I suppose you could be blind to it.

I've yet to meet a moderately intelligent and literate Catholic who wasn't aware of what "lives on" in Catholicism. (Even if they've never been to Italy.) The continuity of classical culture and RC Christianity is pretty obvious and would hardly have been news to anybody who received a remotely "old school" Catholic education. (It was rather emphasized.) Though I wouldn't be surprised if younger people who are Catholic or raised Catholic are now "blind" to this; but that's just of a piece with the cultural memory-holing and historical ignorance afflicting every young person these days.

The pagan-y aesthetic of Catholicism perennially scandalizes a lot of non-Catholics, who sometimes make the mistake of concluding that what scandalizes them must be opaque to Catholics, or else they'd be scandalized, too, and stop doing that scandalous pagan-y stuff.

Browndog said...

Just now, the lead story in our local news (northern Michigan) was the Notre Dame fire.

Brief recap, then "Investigators now say the fire was an accident."

/end report

Big Mike said...

@Althouse, I hope you realize that your post reads like a brief filed on behalf of ISIS. All fine, lawyerly points, but if that Arabic script turns out to translate into "We sure did do it, you f***ing Christian dogs," then your whole premise is wrecked.

I hope no Muslims were involved (except as firefighters!), and I hope no Muslim terrorist organization foolishly tries to win points with other terrorist organizations by trying to claim "credit" for the fire. But then one comes back to the Bamiyan Buddhas.

narciso said...

yes they have a word for it, munafakim, which is applied to Christianity, in general, nazrani in particular (Nazarene) in terms of believers,

narciso said...


https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2019/04/at-the-noor-trial-10.php

tim in vermont said...

or else they'd be scandalized, too, and stop doing that scandalous pagan-y stuff.

I was replying to a poster who claimed that anybody who saw polytheism in Catholicism didn’t understand the word. He seemed pretty blind to the obvious, so yes, I generously ornamented my comment with supporting evidence.

Bob Boyd said...

Video of a “Yellow Vest” on the tower scaffolding a half hour after the fire started.

It was Macron.

Daniel Jackson said...

The issue is The Tower. Just as the Twin Towers were the symbol of American Capitalism, so too is Notre Dame a symbol of The Crusader Church. Like the Twin Towers, there has been earlier attempts, such the one in 2016, on Notre Dame.

It is not about religion in a western theological sense. To the Believer, there is no difference between the God of Mammon and The Three-In-One bundle of the True Church.

It is truly sad.

Anonymous said...

Nobody: I was replying to a poster who claimed that anybody who saw polytheism in Catholicism didn’t understand the word.

Fair cop. To say that anybody who thought Catholicism was polytheistic completely misunderstood Catholicism would have been correct, but you're right, that isn't what he said.

(Catholicism can look polytheistic from the outside even to some Trinitarian protestants, who in turn can look like polytheists to Unitarians and Muslims.)

Vance said...

Islam is the final version of the Deuteronimist reformists from right before the fall of Jerusalem and the scattering of Israel. One would presume that the fact that God destroyed Israel right after they rejected their older Temple ways that God was not too pleased.

In any case, Islam either needs a Reformation or they need to go way back... to Mohammed's Mecca teachings and reject his Medina period. Islam as taught from Mecca is a nice religion. It was only when Mohammed fled to Medina that it all went pear shaped. Go back to only the Mecca teachings and no one would have a problem with Islam at all.

My own personal theory is that God inspired Mohammed at first, in the Mecca period. But when Mohameed fled, he was upset, and decided to go with the other divine being who showed up... I.E. Satan. And Satan perverted the right ways of the Lord, as is his wont.

Tina Trent said...

Not translation but apt:

"Something quite remote from anything the builders intended had come out of their work, and out of the fierce human tragedy in which I played, and something none of us thought about at the time: a small red flame -- a beaten copper lamp of deplorable design, relit before the beaten copper doors of a tabernacle: the flame which the old knights saw from their tombs, which they saw put out; that flame burns again for other soldiers far from home, farther in heart than Acre or Jerusalem. It could not have been lit but for the builders and tragedians, and there I found it this morning, burning anew among the old stones."

YoungHegelian said...

He mixed Mary, the mother of the Lord, confusingly with the Holy Spirit. So maybe he believed that there are more than three.

It's complicated.

What probably happened is that the early Muslims probably bumped into some Christians who were believers in some heterodox doctrines concerning the Virgin Mary, and that interpretation got taken up by the Hadiths & thus set in stone.

I have heard Eastern Rite/Orthodox professors of theology say that in some of the early Fathers, "it's almost like Mary is the Fourth Person". Not that they believed that, but that the Mariology of some of the early Church Fathers seems to point to that extreme.

It comes, somehow, from the Jewish Wisdom traditions. The Wisdom tradition in Old Testament Judaism seems to predate the Babylonian Exile, and it survived in what looks like a parallel existence to the more main-line Yahwhist tradition (the consort of Ba'al in the Canaanite religion was the goddess of Wisdom). Wisdom is still around in early common-era Judaism as it plays an important role in the writings of Philo of Alexandria, and it moves into early Christianity from the various "Judaisms" that gave birth to Christianity.

The Eastern Church has always been much more into the theology of the Divine Wisdom than the Western Church. It's why they named their greatest cathedral at Constantinople "Hagia Sophia" (Holy Wisdom). See the last paragraph of this article for a bit of explanation.

Yancey Ward said...

What is the religion of tomorrow in France? People think it takes a majority of the populace to set such agendas for everyone. I am telling you it doesn't- all it takes is a strong minority with the will to act.

Keep it simple- the poster is telling you that Allah is god, not the multitude of gods worshiped in diverse Western culture today.

YoungHegelian said...

By the way, there are saints in Islam, especially in Shi'a Islam.

I suspect that Shi'a Islam absorbed a lot more from Nestorian Christianity than anyone cares to admit.

Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...

in terms of condolences, this poster is the best we can offer you

MikeD said...

In any discussion of Islam I caan't remember anything made of the devout's belief in lack of free will, IE; predestination. It's one of the "six pillars" of belief. Every act of a devout Muslim, whether for good or evil, is willed b Allah and the actor has no choice in the matter. "Destiny is what Allah has decreed. Allah has knowledge of everything in his creation. Nothing occurs except by his will." Not a cult?

Bilwick said...

I'm non-religious, and a "lapsed" Catholic. (Actually I didn't let my Catholicism lapse as much as I ran away from it, screaming.) Yet these photos and tv news footage from Paris showing the fire--especially the collapse of the spire--hits me way down deep. They're like watching the Anti-Christ attack Paris.

narciso said...

Occams razor would suggest this:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6927801/Notre-Dame-construction-boss-boasted-firms-abilities.html?fbclid=IwAR1NlazILNB4RroEN6PwoCuN1n__3_90lRo6jeciYwMgPhflAE0UfsswpT8

Milwaukie guy said...

Raised as a well-churched Presbyterian, what with the Virgin Mary cult and multitude of saints, we doubted that the RC Church was monotheist.

Saint Andrew, of course, excepted. And, sure, Patrick, too.

Milwaukie guy said...

And it's Drink more Ovaltime.

Milwaukie guy said...

And it's Drink more Ovaltine. Sheesh.

narciso said...

hamburg, why does that sound familiar:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/04/16/former-isil-bride-living-freely-hamburg/

he was the one who was having an affair with the fbi agent,

narciso said...

you realize he thinks this is profound:


https://twitter.com/alimhaider/status/1118207330875772928

narciso said...




more of that news that isn't happening:

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1115219/Libya-war-news-world-war-3-tripoli-airstrike-attack-middle-east-terror-general-haftar-dead

seeing as france is tacitly supporting haftar to some degree,

tcrosse said...

Surviving Rose Window

The Cracker Emcee Refulgent said...

"Surviving Rose Window"

I'm loath to ascribe what is probably chance to divine intervention, but that photo makes the hair on my neck stand up a little.

tcrosse said...

I'm loath to ascribe what is probably chance to divine intervention

Well, it was the framework of the roof that was on fire, and the heat from the fire would have risen, leaving alone the leaded glass windows below. My theory, as the descendant of Huguenots, anyway.

0_0 said...

Keep in mind that ISIL razed old and historic structures in areas they controlled.

I don't believe they are the cause of the fire, but if they had taken Paris then I am sure they would have.

effinayright said...

When I was a kid growing up Catholic we were taught that Catholics worship and adore God in His triune aspect, but *venerate* Mary and the saints.

Catholics therefore don't pray to Mary or the saints, but request them to intercede with God on their behalf.

But it's easy to see how non-Catholics could see people praying in front of a saint's statue and think he was worhipping it and praying to it.

Cường Hồ said...

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sdharms said...

Ann, may you be remembered as "one who alibis for the Muslims". Hold their coats much?
Though The Daily Mail says "the jihadists celebrated," the poster does not have to be read as a celebration. It doesn't say we're glad the cathedral burned. There are no images of jihadists dancing in the street or on rooftops.

Etienne said...

...but request them to intercede with God on their behalf.

Of course. We have patron Saint's. When I go to church, I buy a candle and place it before my patron Saint and pray they will intercede on my behalf, because they have God's ear. Myself, just a peasant, have no standing.

Same with Halloween. We bribe kids with candy so they will pray for our loved ones in purgatory, that they might get an early release.

mockturtle said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
mockturtle said...

"For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus.". I Timothy 2:5

Etienne said...

The mediator is from God to mankind. From mankind to God, you can pray to Saints already in heaven. A patron Saint is like a Godfather with a huge family.

the heartfelt prayer of someone upright works very powerfully. James 5:16