March 11, 2019

Put on your hock-dockies, and let's read a little more...

... from the 1869 book, "The Slang Dictionary: Or, the Vulgar Words, Street Phrases, and 'Fast' Expressions of High and Low Society."


What do you think of the "Gipsy" origin of "hocus pocus" and the alternative explanation that it's a mockery of the Eucharist? Etymonline buys into the "sham-Latin" explanation, but the OED says "The notion that hocus pocus was a parody of the Latin words used in the Eucharist, rests merely on a conjecture...."

I like these other words. "Hodge" as a clown, "hocus" as drugging a person to rob him, "hocks" as feet," and "hob and nob" as opposed to our "hob-nob." The OED has the oldest definition of "hob-nob" as drinking together, with the oldest example from 1763: "Do I go to hob or nob in white-wine, I am probably told red, is better for my nerves." Wait. That doesn't close it up into the simple "hob-nob." The OED's oldest example of "hob-nob" is from 1828: "I have frequently heard one gentleman, in company, say to another, will you hob-nob with me? When this challenge was accepted, the glasses were instantly filled, and then they made the glasses touch or kiss each other. This gentle striking of the drinking vessels I always supposed explained the term hob-nob." That's interesting, too, because it suggests that clinking glasses was a new thing.

I've never thought about why people clink glasses or how that originated. I see that there was a theory that it had to do with worries the drinks could be poisoned, but Snopes has ruled that false. In the old days, people drank from the same bowl. Having your own drinking vessel is pretty recent, and clinking glasses is — per Snopes! — a way "to compensate for the sense of unity lost"... and maybe people just like the sound of clinked glasses.

As for "Hobson's choice"... you knew what that meant, didn't you? Wikipedia has an article on the subject. I'll just excerpt the John Stuart Mill part:
John Stuart Mill, in his book Considerations on Representative Government, refers to Hobson's choice: "When the individuals composing the majority would no longer be reduced to Hobson's choice, of either voting for the person brought forward by their local leaders, or not voting at all.'

In another of his books, The Subjection of Women, Mill discusses marriage: "Those who attempt to force women into marriage by closing all other doors against them, lay themselves open to a similar retort. If they mean what they say, their opinion must evidently be, that men do not render the married condition so desirable to women, as to induce them to accept it for its own recommendations. It is not a sign of one's thinking the boon one offers very attractive, when one allows only Hobson's choice, 'that or none'.... And if men are determined that the law of marriage shall be a law of despotism, they are quite right in point of mere policy, in leaving to women only Hobson's choice. But, in that case, all that has been done in the modern world to relax the chain on the minds of women, has been a mistake. They should have never been allowed to receive a literary education."
This isn't tonight's café, so don't go off track. There are a lot of topics here... but not infinite topics.

46 comments:

tcrosse said...

hob
noun
1.
a flat metal shelf at the side or back of a fireplace, having its surface level with the top of the grate and used especially for heating pans.
2.
a machine tool used for cutting gears or screw threads.

Crimso said...

"Snopes has ruled that false."

You could just as easily have said some dude on the street corner named "Walt" has ruled it false. Walt is apt to be more accurate. Whoever he is.

rhhardin said...

Vulgar means of the common people, not what you shitheads think.

tcrosse said...

Québec French takes its vulgar expressions from our Holy Mother the Church. Words such as Tabernacle and Calisse (chalice) are used impolitely to express consternation.

tcrosse said...

Did the term Hokey Pokey exist in 1869?

rehajm said...

I find the term Hob-Nob to be very phalo-centric.

Fuck off, Jamie.

YoungHegelian said...

When the Three Stooges first performed in Edinburgh, Scotland they ran into a local dialect problem -- in the Scottish slang of the time, to stooge meant the same as to fuck, e.g. Rodney finally got around to stooging his girl.

The local booking agents listed the name of the act on the theater marquees as "The Three Hoodges" so as not to run afoul of local obscenity laws.

mccullough said...

It’s never a Hobson’s choice if you believe that better than nothing is a high standard.

Fen said...

Sites like Snopes are for lazy people just asking to get played.

Like a fact check section in a newspaper that's ALREADY claimed it's stories are back stoppped by layers and layers of fact checkers and editors. But ignore all that, this section over here is "more true" because they typed "Fact Check" into the header?

Lazy and foolish people. Keep normalizing sites like Snopes if you want more of the same.

tcrosse said...

Wikipedia tells me that the Hokey Pokey, and many variations on the theme, go back to the Middle Ages, at least. Could the Romans have done the Hocus Pocus?

Guildofcannonballs said...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lXXvUIEy2o

I blend narchardin.

I M gENIOUS.

Rob said...

Hocus Pocus being derived from habeas corpus seems like quite a stretch. Though I suppose Gypsies should have been familiar with the Great Writ. You remember the recipe for a Gypsy omelette: First, steal three eggs . . . .

Odious said...

Cf "mumpsimus"

Chubfuddler said...

"Hobson's Choice" is also a very good David Lean film, pre-River Kwai and Lawrence of Arabia, based on an old play, with Charles Laughton and many other English talents, including a very young Prunella Scales (Sybil Fawlty). Well worth a look. I think it's on a Criterion DVD, and it may show up from time to time on Turner Classic Movies. Here's a small clip: Hobson's Choice

Guildofcannonballs said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Guildofcannonballs said...

If there were one poster I considered , Ifarmin' yokels, identified ago.

Long not, but ago no doubt.

Guildofcannonballs said...

this blog is a cesspool of CIA


ThERE I said iT

Quaestor said...

When the Three Stooges first performed in Edinburgh...

Wow. Is that ever a paradigm case of a "just so" tale.

Ay doot th' Stooges eever plaid the Hoi Strit in pairsin; seein as who they waint boy "Ted Healy an His Soothairn Gentlemen" back in the day. More likely the rythmin of hooge an stooge explains th' origin o' stooge.

Guildofcannonballs said...

John McCain's friends ought be hung. Big cocks will get them far. They believe in nothing divine, having sold out those ideals along with, and of coursely, Nancy Reagan's view of the GOP's 2008 cuntidate.

Quaestor said...

Weel, ah never claimed tae write th' most convinsin dialect. But ya shud hair my bra Scots in pairsin.

Guildofcannonballs said...

Cuntidate's by def cunt.

eo ipso

Contained within itself.

Trumpit, God is with us all.

n.n said...

if men are determined that the law of marriage shall be a law of despotism

A man, some men, certainly. How many "men" are they claiming? Is there a consensus? The logic is sensible, but they are prone to lapse into diversity arguments that mimic selfies.

Guildofcannonballs said...

I don't do pranks and I'm not merry, otherwise I could conceive of merryness prankingly.

Quaestor said...

Repostin cuss ah cannae edit ma stoof.

wildswan said...

Based on that small sample, it seems that thieves' language is based on the Anglo-Saxon part of the English language, not the part from Latin or French or from parts of the Empire. For along time after 1066, the judges were Frenchmen, speaking French or clerics speaking Latin and the criminals, I suppose, were the Anglo-Saxons, Hodge, speaking Germanic dialects. The Empire brought in names of flowers from all over the world and pajamas, potatoes, coffee and jive.

Here's two proverbs about marriage an Islamic country, Morocco.

Do not correct with a strike that which can be taught with a kiss

Many are the roads that do not lead to the heart

Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...

there's a New Jersey town named for a prostitute who would rob her drunk clients

Guildofcannonballs said...

Back when it was respectable, Bill Buckley took part.

Indeed.

Yale.


So... game on. All those two or three or Hardinly exponential....

You know you got this. That commercial showed you so.

You got this..

tthey dumb and racist and hate fags...

Fernandinande said...

The 1811 version is a bit different -

HOBSON'S CHOICE. That or none; from old Hobson, a famous carrier of Cambridge, who used to let horses to the students; but never permitted them to chuse, always allotting each man the horse he thought properest for his manner of riding and treatment.


HOCUS POCUS. Nonsensical words used by jugglers, previous to their deceptions, as a kind of charm, or incantation. A celebrated writer supposes it to be a ludicrous corruption of the words hoc est corpus, used by the popish priests consecrating the host. Also Hell Hocus is used to express drunkenness: as, he is quite hocus; he is quite drunk.

tcrosse said...

Blogger Quaestor said...
Repostin cuss ah cannae edit ma stoof.


If you can say, "It's a braw bricht moonlicht nicht",
Then yer a'richt, ye ken.

traditionalguy said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
traditionalguy said...

The Calvinists really did condemn the Roman Catholics for dramatically re-sacrificing Jesus by a flourish of publicly breaking his body and pouring out his blood again and again and again. That was the issue that most angered the Catholics into killing the Calvinists, like Bloody Mary'

The Roman church has always and still does claim that prople can only saved by eating that re-sacrifice ritual meal done by Rome's licensed Priest.

But most of the Catholic Priests did not know a word of Latin either, so their memorized
Hocus Pocus words that they asserted gave them a monopoly power to get people into heaven were greatly ridiculed. It was magic for sale at a price.

YoungHegelian said...

@Quastor,

Ay doot th' Stooges eever plaid the Hoi Strit in pairsin;

The incident in Scotland is recounted by Moe Howard in his biography of the Stooges, in this book.

YoungHegelian said...

@Tradguy,

But most of the Catholic Priests did not know a word of Latin either, so their memorized

Where do you get your Church history from? Bazooka Joe bubble gum wrappers?

narciso said...

That was standard practice till 1962, certainly it was exclusively in Latin, before gutenberg.

effinayright said...

tcrosse said...
Did the term Hokey Pokey exist in 1869?
***********
Not sure, but I bet the term jiggery-pokery did.

effinayright said...

Guildofcannonballs said...
John McCain's friends ought be hung. Big cocks will get them far.
*****************

Did you mean to say what you said?

effinayright said...

In high school I worked part time at a jewelry store where the ad man for the local newspaper would visit from time to time to solicit business.

One of the salespersons, a rather salacious femme, used to greet him:

"Ed! Nice to see you! How's the wife?"

Ed: "Oh..., better than nothing, I guess."

Guildofcannonballs said...

"I hope you know more than you're believin'

Hope the sun don't hurt you, when you cry"

Paint a different color, on your front door........."

-Gram Parsons, the Artist.

Guildofcannonballs said...

Sowell's right, without visionless trolls beat decency sans taste.

Virtue.

Judgementy.

Judgment.

Perspicacity.

Discernment.

I've yet to crack, in about 5 years, Bill Buckley's dictionary for guys like me.

You won't like guys like you forced Buckley and me to be.


A cornucopia of wonderful words for the inquisitive word lover." Or something.

N.N sorcie it for me, freiond. Last thing anyone wants is tp co[uwrote Hollywood accpotomg/

gg6 said...

To go on track re an offtrack remark:...'younghegelian' @ 8:49PM is so, so correct re @tradguy's comment re Latin by priests...I'm left to wonder what mindless 'tradition' @tradguy is into. But never mind, doesn't matter, doesn't make a diff. Crap like that is everywhere. btw, speaking of Omar......

Guildofcannonballs said...


Shoot..

I came here to titalate a tantalizing tittilation.

Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...

"Ho'-Hocus"

Guildofcannonballs said...

https://adamgomez.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/partyandthedeepbluesea-1952.pdf

Now what you think about that??

Now I know how you feel...

If you wanna be ... you gotta ...

Guildofcannonballs said...

You gotta Seth Rich me I feel as though I will be honored in Heaven.

DKWalser said...

Hobson’s Choice is a very good film; one of my favorites. In keeping with the theme, John Mills plays one of the leads. But, while there are three very strong performances in front of the camera, the real star of the picture is the script. Not a word is wasted or out of place.

robother said...

So the Democrats were given Hobson's choice in 2016: the old nag whose turn it is or nothing.