"'You can talk your heart out. You really could. There’s love in this room. You can talk your heart out. It’s easy. It’s easy. It’s easy.' At the start of his speech, he warmly embraced the American flag... Trump’s effusive love may or may not be the result of calculated strategizing, but it’s not a bad tactic, even though it’s rhetorically bizarre compared with most electoral speech. He seems to intuit that decent swaths of Americans struggle not only with a poverty of material resources — which his policies have worsened — but also with a poverty of dignity and with emotional destitution that comes from being thought little of, mocked, ignored and dismissed by mainstream culture.... Trump may have simply stumbled upon the power that’s possible to reap by addressing his base’s urgent need for affirmation.... The question for 2020 is whether there’s a candidate available on the left who can (or will) convey a better, broader version of it — something grandly affirmative, but nonetheless sincere, that can tend to every wound."
Writes Elizabeth Bruenig in "Trump’s love may be why he’s maintained a strong grasp on his base" (WaPo).
I haven't read all the comments over there, but basically, Bruenig's advice — Democrats should express grandly affirmative, sincere love — isn't heard at all. It's only resisted: Trump's love is not real love.
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181 comments:
He seems to intuit that decent swaths of Americans struggle not only with a poverty of material resources — which his policies have worsened
A lie right off the bat..
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It's cute and disturbing how people say something that might be construed as complimentary of Trump but have to add a Trump smear. I suspect its fear of getting the car keyed by their 'friends'...
More than Ann's statement that the writer's advice is ignored - it's entirely disingenuous. "Here's what Trump is doing, and it's working. Somebody on our side should copy him. And be sincere!"
Ooooooooh, its so good its so good it so good its so good...
Who cares about love? Less hate would be a step in the right direction which hopefully they won't take.
"a poverty of material resources — which his policies have worsened —"
Apparently we deplorables don't realize that we're actually worse off now than we were two years ago. Thank goodness for all those super-duper smart Democrats, like those in CA and NY!!
I saw that comment and thought about finding a Donna Summer response. The horrible things that stick in your head after 40 years.
What rehajm said, and
1) Doesn't matter if Trump's love is real - only that his supporters believe that it is real
2) They need it pointed out that calling people moral reprobates and saying the country will be better off when they die and that their culture is crap is not the way to get their votes?
Morons
Limbaugh says Trump doing Rush To Excellence speaking tour style
One feature is to wink at the audience reminding them everyone is in on it
Easy talk = without soap opera guardrails.
Americans struggle not only with a poverty of material resources — which his policies have worsened
it's TRUE! three years ago, MILLIONS of Americans had Massive material resources:
food stamps
unemployment checks
section 8 housing
welfare checks
now, THANKS TO TRUMP! those MILLIONS of people are having to GO TO A JOB, EVERY DAY
(except weekends), and deal with the hassle of cashing pay checks. And not just token paychecks! Real High paying checks, that make them ineligible for all those material resource that the democrats kindly provided
Here's the truth part of that:
He seems to intuit that decent swaths of Americans struggle not only with a poverty of material resources — which his policies have worsened — but also with a poverty of dignity and with emotional destitution that comes from being thought little of, mocked, ignored and dismissed by mainstream culture.... Trump may have simply stumbled upon the power that’s possible to reap by addressing his base’s urgent need for affirmation....
filed under: well, duh.
Who made that possible, again? The mainstream culture? Would that be it?
You don't have to be a Rhodes scholar to detect contempt. Or, conversely, love and affirmation. Which would you choose? What the world needs now is contempt, sweet contempt? SMH.
^^^ thought I cut out that policies worsened lying part. ^^^
My bad.
One advantage Trump has is that people see he speaks from the heart, not in the calculated and insincere ways typical of politicians. That gets him in trouble with nitpicking “fact checkers,” since the heart is not always precise and literal, but it makes him more broadly trustworthy.
Love is a loaded word used by our beloved President to express a bond of mutual gratitude between a loyal leader and his loyal followers. He restores prosperity with a magic wand of restraining the Government's destruction of their lives , and they vote for him for the first time in 30 years that they bothered to vote.
Meanwhile the Dems are lost in a Commie fantasy land of demanding loyalty or else from their voters while blatantly favoring Guatemalan and El Salvadoran peasants as their replacement voters over over real American voters.
On the one hand you have Trump being as trusted a President as 4 term FDR compared on the other hand to insane Marxists furiously demanding the middle class Kulaks be exterminated for sins against the Collective Police State.
The interesting thing is watching the Media attack our President 24/7 with totally fake Crimes. It has become the era of Love vs. Bull Shit
Even if the comments are still in denial, the fact that the piece was written and published in the WaPo indicates at least some people in the MSM/Democratic establishment may be sensing there's a clue out there.
He seems to intuit that decent swaths of Americans struggle not only with a poverty of material resources — which his policies have worsened — but also with a poverty of dignity and with emotional destitution that comes from being thought little of, mocked, ignored and dismissed by mainstream culture...
In other words, Trump’s love is the opiate of the masses?
We would have been so much better off with fracking ended, as Hillary promised, and sending the money for ten dollar gas overseas. You guys just don't get it. F250 owners are climate criminals. This is so obvious!
He seems to intuit that decent swaths of Americans struggle not only with a poverty of material resources — which his policies have worsened
A lie right off the bat..
Well, she had to sugar coat the pill.
Lizzie Bruenig Does make an astute observation though
IF you have a choice of Two candidates, and:
One (the One you SHOULD vote for)
* calls you deplorable, and Ignorant
* makes it clear that she Will Do NOTHING for you (and many things against you)
while the OTHER
* shows his honest and true LOVE for you AND your country
* makes it clear that he Will Do ANYTHING for you
Then the choice taken by the ignorant SCUM will be clear (clearly NOT THE ONE what they SHOULD)
The same people who still excoriate Maggie Thatcher for closing the coal mines admire Hillary for trying. It's almost as if it's only about power. Naah.
“Number one, I’m in love...”
Finally, proof that the “pee tape” exists!
Trump is, essentially, a Calvinist.
The Calvinist creed, which is that living an exemplary Christian life will also lead to success in life, is anathema to the left, which is wallowing in envy and the desire for revenge.
The curious part of this is that we're outrageously rich and at peace, but the left wants war, envy and revenge.
Do you think that the next Democrat president will revert NAFTA and reopen the loophole that let the Chinese dump cheap steel into the US via Canada and Mexico?
I know a few Deplorables (I call them Working Class Folks). One thing they all have in common is an understanding of just how much Hillary Clinton detests them. They didn't particularly care for Donald Trump, but they damn sure weren't going to vote for someone who actively and gleefully hates them. I'm not sure that has ever registered with Their Betters.
What Shouting Thomas said.
""...something grandly affirmative, but nonetheless sincere, that can tend to every wound."
Unless you're a just-born infant after a failed abortion attempt, where then they will just try to keep you comfortable until they decide if you live or die.
But if these people just can seem 'boring' while doing so then there are plenty of older women who will vote for them.
They, after all, are alive: they just want to be kept comfortable until they die.
I am Laslo.
voment!!
1. third-person plural future active indicative of vomō
I prefer Trumps love a lot more than the fake...."LOVE TRUMPS HATE" that we get from the hateful left. Trump generally loves this country. They hate it and want to change it. They are so angry and miserable, that Trumps love scares the BEJESUS out of them. Maybe they should try it sometime.
Trump is projecting the "positivism" of Norman Vincent Peale, his former pastor (sorta). No one these days remembers Peale. Listen to a few of Peale's sermons and note his humor, "positivism", and optimism about life and how one can improve one's life.
There is love all around in the Trump world why Kim and Trump exchanged love letters; these are leaders with heart.
We know, gadfly, you have the sads every morning when you remember that Hillary is not president.
People want positive. People want real.
Breunig is a Catholic socialist. I'd expect her to be a little more positive about Trump. Or at least not so positive about Abortion forever Dem Presidential candidates.
Hillary had a great love for the American people. That's why she was so stern with naughty red staters who selfishly didn't want their industries destroyed. Or their worthless jobs sent overseas so blue states could profit.
R/V is a moron, but Gadfly, show us on the doll where the bad orange man hurt you.
"...but also with a poverty of dignity and with emotional destitution that comes from being thought little of, mocked, ignored and dismissed by mainstream culture...."
I'm surprised this made it past the editor, without it being rephrased to be more passive.
It seems like she is admitting that, yes, the mainstream media -- of which her paper is fully a part of -- does indeed think this way of the deplorables.
Not that it wasn't obvious; just interesting that it is so blithely admitted.
Sometimes some truth comes out while you're working your way to bullshit.
I am Laslo.
something grandly affirmative, but nonetheless sincere,
Funny that she thinks her side needs to be told that it's not just manipulation, it has to be sincere. She's right, of course.
Truly a pleasure to have a review as thoughtful and meaningful
as this one is! Thank you so much for this blog and all of your posts.
Creepy
Trump is, nominally, an Episcopalian and he attends services at the National Cathedral. How often, I don't know.
The U.S. Bishop of the Episcopal Church publicly declared that Trump is a "heretic" over Charlottesville. What Trump had to do with that is difficult to understand.
Love Trump’s Hate.
Elizabeth Bruenig looks like she's about 14 years old.
Opinion columnist focusing on politics, religion and morality in public life. Education: Brandeis University, BA in English & sociology; University of Cambridge, Jesus College, MPhil in Christian theology; Brown University, PhD candidate in religion -- incomplete.
The "material resources" statement: fake news or faith-based opinion?
Leftwing Stalinist Mob love is real.
Trump doesn’t hate, you are projecting Lefty.
it has to be sincere
Sincerity; once you can fake that, you've got it Made!
Got Desperation?
"The New York State Department of Financial Services has opened an inquiry into the Trump Organization's insurance practices, sending a subpoena Monday to the company's longtime insurance broker, according to a person familiar with the matter."
Our local alt-rag, The Stranger, recently ran an article about Seattle being one of the least tolerant areas of the US. The comment section to that article provided ample proof that the researchers were onto something. Clueless people not realizing they are proving the point - like this here.
Winston found out in Room 101 which direction the love should go
the democRATS will get your mind right
Bruenig is 28. Not a lot of experience, I’d say. Sorta like that bartender that grabbed all the tips two years ago and now is all the rage in Congress.
If you promote these people as thought leaders you get what you deserve.
She’s the ‘evangelist’ type who became a social justice warrior publicly, I believe. Probably got her a job writing this stuff.
For diversity’s sake why not hire a social justice warrior moving the other direction?
A deeper narrative is not longer working, and neither is a business model depending upon a stronger political and cultural establishment to vaguely practice that deeper narrative against (denouncing squares while being a square).
Morons!
I hope Trump’s people pick up on the Love Trumps Hate meme and make it the centerpiece of their campaign.
Nothing would be funnier then Trump lovingly correcting the Dem’s nominee, killing their campaign with kindness while they keep turning up the vitriol in response.
Bill Clinton felt YOUR pain.
Trump feels America’s pain along with the rest of us
Shouting Thomas said...
The U.S. Bishop of the Episcopal Church publicly declared that Trump is a "heretic" over Charlottesville. What Trump had to do with that is difficult to understand.
Yeah, that stretches things to the breaking point. On the other hand, Cardinal Burke stating that Nancy Pelosi should be denied communion because of her support for abortion... That's pretty clear cut.
Happy New Year to all, including to my many enemies and those who have fought me and lost so badly they just don't know what to do. Love!
It really bothers these Millenial Intellectuals that Trump is smarter than they are. Trump didn’t “stumble upon” this, as Betty Millenial wrote.
"Sincerity is everything. If you can fake that kid you've got it made."
-------Darryl Zanuck (as told to George Burns)
Real Love is when you die and your friends overdub your last track.
The episcopate make Henry v111 wonder if it was worth splitting from Rome.
Big Brother LUVS U !
Now dance, you mud turtles! DANCE !!!
Can you imagine what things would be like if, after the election, the Dems had worked on taking their party back from the donors, fixers, baiters who had led them off the cliff? If they had focused on purging the people who "elevated" Trump to a credible candidate? If they purged the people who stood down instead of resisting Russian meddling? If they just adopted some measure of accountability, even if it was limited to screwing their own people.
His policies have worsened a poverty?
What very odd phrasing.
Policies can be claimed to increase poverty. Or decrease poverty. But what does it mean to worsen a poverty?
It's almost a double negative.
2) They need it pointed out that calling people moral reprobates and saying the country will be better off when they die and that their culture is crap is not the way to get their votes?
And yet this is precisely the way Trump is characterizing those who do not agree with him.
It may surprise Ms. Bruenig [along with other NYT/WaPo editorialists] to know that many of us deplorables are neither blue collar nor uneducated. We are not languishing with envy of the liberal elite nor do we feel marginalized by society. Methinks they are guilty of stereotyping and wishful thinking, like Obama and his 'Bibles and guns' remark.
And yet this is precisely the way Trump is characterizing those who do not agree with him
Precisely? Then I am sure you have a quote or three.
"...decent swaths of Americans struggle not only with a poverty of material resources — which his policies have worsened..."
That was Obama.
That was Obama.
Not really. Basically all measures of income have been slowly improving since the financial crisis.
So the chamber of commerce, will not support a committed Christian in hagedoorn
“He seems to intuit that decent swaths of Americans struggle not only with a poverty of material resources — which his policies have worsened”
I find this fascinating. In my youth, I read about totalitarians making these statements that were totally at odds with measurable reality but never thought it would become a casual, even reflexive, thing in American politics. Then Bill Clinton was elected....
Democrats refuse to believe reality. The United States, the World, are a better place today because of President Trump. Can't identify a single system that is performing worse, because of the Presidents actions.
I have seen 3 or 4 Evangelical Ministers interviewed about President Trump. The media person always attempts to pin the label of hypocrisy on the Ministers. "How can you support a moral reprobate like President Trump.
Lots of explanation Christian concepts of forgiveness, ability to change, finding the word, etc. But they all close with the same big reason. President has a failed moral past, but in is worst day, the President is not focused on destroying their faith, like the Democrat Party.
Much the same can be said of a lot of sectors of society. President Trump may have problems, but he is not determined to destroy what I find important or love.
#greenleapforward
Precisely? Then I am sure you have a quote or three.
You can start with these 567. And that is just on Twitter. Probably dozens more (conservatively) in the transcript of his speech to CPAC.
I'm sure I can easily find more if you are interested.
Please give me one or two that you feel make your case.
Do you really think, to take the first one, criticizing the Democrats for their economic policies is the same as hoping that a slice of the electorate simply dies off?
What do you think the stock market would look like if gas prices doubled after Hillary implemented her promised ban on fracking? Oh, and BTW, that energy money would now be going overseas?
Lee County Alabama ( named for Robert E. Lee) with 140,000 poulation is getting its first Presidential. And they will remember.
"And yet this is precisely the way Trump is characterizing those who do not agree with him."
Yes, give us an example of this when Trump was not responding to someone who attacked him first. There is no person in political history as much maligned as Donald Trump, and in extremely unhinged non-factual ways. And the next 5 most maligned are all Republicans as well.
poverty of material resources — which his policies have worsened”
"Chocolate rations have been decreased from 100 grams to 150 grams."
"He seems to intuit that decent swaths of Americans struggle not only with a poverty of material resources — which his policies have worsened"
That is just a lie, lying liberals. Trump has helped our economy, his policies have created jobs and the numbers prove it, employment is up for all Americans. Lying liberals will destroy our country.
1984, is a how to manual, for them.
Forget it Freder. There's always an unfalsifiable excuse.
Not really. Basically all measures of income have been slowly improving since the financial crisis
Slowly being the operative word. The only recovery since the great depression that was so anemic. Even with the initial almost $trillion injection, shovel ready jobs, cash for clunkers, etc. The quarter after quarter of quantitative easing. A truly anemic recovery, with all Democrat policies.
After 8 years of Democrat fiscal leadership, coming out of a deep recession, how can there possibly any room for growth? In fact Obama mocked President Trumps notion that the economy could even get close to 3%GDP. Even Obama thought he had sucked all the goody out of the economy.
No one dares ask the Dem Candidates if they will promise continued growth and prosperity.
Blogger Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...
"Winston found out in Room 101 which direction the love should go."
A new idea for the AA rat sketches: A Winston Smith rat helmet.
I love how the New York Times thinks that a policy criticism is a personal insult and a statement of hatred. Freder, like R/V, just mindlessly repeats what he is told, that’s why he can’t put any of this stuff down in his own words.
Henry, I just took his very first example. But that’s pretty convenient dodge on your part. Maybe you have a single statement that you feel makes Freder’s case that Trump considers Democrat voters to be personally deplorable, rather than policy opponents.
Henry, do you really think that if Democrats had succeeded in their stated goals of raising gasoline prices “for the climate” and ending fracking, that the economy would be doing as well, or would be be in one more financial crisis as we shipped our energy dollars overseas and left us more vulnerable to energy denial by overseas wars which would we would then be forced to get involved in?
Fracking is why Trump can extricate us from the Middle East. Democrats want to end it.
For over 100 years, the real theme of progressivism has been contempt for the American commoners. Contempt for their politics, their judgment, their speech, their foods, how they live their lives. So much contempt that progressives in Boston cannot stand the thought of someone in Idaho doing something of which the Bostonian disapproves, even tho he is not affected in the least. So, he mobilizes the Federal government to DEAL WITH THAT!!
Trump gave the progs a lightning rod at which to target their contempt. When he is gone in 2021 or 2025 or whenever, they will continue despising the other half of the country, but without the same personal focus. It will in a way be more honest. They will return to the big project of destroying state sovereignty in favor of real (domestic) nationalism--the nation uber alles, trampling all lower levels of government and community. They will destroy the subsidiarity that allows a democratic republic as large as the US to exist, and then blame the people they are crushing for not liking it.
And, the rubes know all that--maybe not in an articulate way, but they feel it in their bones and their souls.
So, of course Trump's appeal works, how could it not?
Aunty, I have little interest in hypotheticals.
If you want to guess how Hillary Clinton would have run her administration, just look at the Obama administration. Look at cubic feet of natural gas production if you want to feel specific.
Henry, I just took his very first example. But that’s pretty convenient dodge on your part. Maybe you have a single statement that you feel makes Freder’s case that Trump considers Democrat voters to be personally deplorable, rather than policy opponents.
So we have to find the word "deplorable" in a statement by Trump? That is the game you are playing? Trump has found words that allow him to call people deplorable without using that precise word. "Witch Hunt" comes to mind. "Socialist" is his most recent insult. His base has a definition of "socialism" that includes opening death camps, engineered famine, and purges all in the name of a minimum wage that still wouldn't have the spending power of the minimum wage in the 1960's and early 70's; and universal healthcare, which every other advanced nation on the face of the earth figured out long ago.
Natural Gas prices dropped 300% under Obama and remain stable under Trump. Math is hard
More love for his country hath no man! Trump is still scamming and Trumpists are still being scammed.
”An American Carnage!”#1 lie to start out his Presidency, many more to follow. So much to love.
I love the gratuitous insult leveled at poor Trump supporters - too dumb to realize that his policies are (allegedly, albeit unexplainedly) making them poorer - immediately before suggesting that they suffer a "poverty of dignity" and "emotional destitution that comes from being thought little of, mocked, ignored and dismissed by mainstream culture." Beautiful.
The leftmediaswine can’t get past identity politics. Trump’s base doesn’t want to be loved by him. We want him to close borders, heal the economy, resist abortion, protect the First Amendment and keep us safe from terrorists, including terrorist nations.
Democrats won’t do any of that. That is why they want the focus on Trump the man, not the issues.
I love how lefties now try to give Obama credit for fracking, as if he didn't oppose it consistently. That he failed in stopping it is their best argument. Snort.
In fact Obama mocked President Trumps notion that the economy could even get close to 3%GDP.
Bullshit. Obama mocked statements that we could sustain a "4, 5 or even 6" percent growth. After Trump got one quarter above 4%, Trump boasted that "things will only get better" and on this very forum so many of you (especially Michael K) were drinking deeply of the Kool Aid. But where did the year end up? 2.9% year to year growth. The same as Obama's best year of growth (2015).
He seems to intuit that decent swaths of Americans struggle not only with a poverty of material resources — which his policies have worsened
Really? Where is Bruenig’s evidence for that bland assertion about Trump’s policies worsening people’s access to material resources? Did the price of lattes go up at her favorite coffee shop?
— but also with a poverty of dignity and with emotional destitution that comes from being thought little of, mocked, ignored and dismissed by mainstream culture
But is her culture really the mainstream? They think they’re the mainstream, but from where I sit they are merely an extremist fringe that is loud and irritating, but fundamentally of little or no real worth. What do they make that is of lasting value? Whose life is better because of what they do?
How much love Trump expressed for the reporter with the disability.
Putting the Press in even greater danger from rabid Cultists...” The Press is the Enemy of the People!”
The love, oh how Trump loves!
How much love Trump expresses...
“I’d love to punch that guy right in the face!”
Whatever the reasons, things are rarely as good as they are now, but you'd never know it, becuase most politics requires us to be unhappy. How else do you get people to vote for you over the incumbent. Even if the country was doing it's best ever in history, which arguably it is, you have to be angry and full of hate to overcome that, and you can't do it with policy. You have to personally demonize, and lie. This means we never get to enjoy our successes beyond the superfluous political wins and losses. We are unhappy when it's bad, and we are unhappy when it's good. Nice system we have here.
Blogger Howard said...
Natural Gas prices dropped 300% under Obama and remain stable under Trump. Math is hard
And Hillary promised to end the gravy train by ending fracking. History is hard.
Dick Cheney’s oil summit is what brought down natural gas prices. Obama appointed an energy secretary who had advocated for $10 gas. History is hard. Likewise Obama used “Dick Cheney’s Assassination Squad” as the Guardian dubbed Seal Team 6,, to kill bin Laden.
“Look at that face. Would anybody vote for that? Can you imagine that, the face of our next president? I mean, she's a woman, and I'm not supposed to say bad things, but really, folks, come on. Are we serious?"
Very loving.
“By the time we get through all of my conditions, I do not think there will be many places in America where fracking will continue to take place,” she[Hillary Clinton] said. -Fortune Magazine
Blogger Aunty Trump said...
Blogger Howard said...
Natural Gas prices dropped 300% in spite of Obama
FIFY
Where is Bruenig’s evidence for that bland assertion about Trump’s policies worsening people’s access to material resources?
Have you checked the numbers for farm bankruptcies this year. That is one stark example where Trump's policies had an immediate, and devastating, effect on the people who brung him to the dance.
So is this fracking a good idea or not, or does it depend on who is President when it happens to pay off?
Americans engaging in a protest...”those sons of bitches!”
Eighty-four farms filed for Chapter 12 bankruptcy in Wisconsin, Minnesota, North Dakota, South Dakota and Montana in the 12 months that ended in June, according to a new analysis from the Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis. That’s more than double the number over the same period in 2013 and 2014,
84! OMG!
http://www.startribune.com/farm-bankruptcies-are-on-the-rise-and-bankers-worry-that-far-more-are-on-the-way/501157191/
It’s statistical noise, but there is the “worry” that you can hang your hat on!
Trump to black Americans... “ what have you got to lose?!”
Really we are talking about 40 farms, since that is the supposed anomaly above normal.
Trump explaining to America... “ there were good people on both sides”. Neo Nazi’s/ white supremacists love Trump. Lots of love there.
The increase in Chapter 12 filings reflects low prices for corn, soybeans, milk and even beef.
Cheap food! Oh the humanity!
Have you checked the numbers for farm bankruptcies this year.
No I haven’t, but before I get excited about farm bankruptcies I need to know what they were like under Obama. That man positively hated small family farms.
Bago: Those of us who have actually worked in E&P have known about fracked fields for 50+ years. The only thing was waiting for Hubbert's peak (flowable) oil to make it economic.
How many bombs were planted targeting those who spoke out against Trump?
Hit list of Trump enemies, names of prominent Trump critics on it, attack foiled. What did Trump have to say about that?
It’s statistical noise, but there is the “worry” that you can hang your hat on!
A doubling is "statistical noise"?! Where on earth did you learn statistics? And remember a farm bankruptcy, unlike say bankrupting a casino or real estate holding company, generally means liquidation. It is the tip of a very big iceberg since it means that there are many other farmers hanging on by the skin of their teeth.
Cheap food! Oh the humanity!
Shows how much empathy Aunty Trump has for farmers. Is she some kind of coastal elitist?
And btw, the correct spelling is "Auntie". And considering the popularity of the Handmaids Tale, it is a pretty unfortunate moniker to choose.
That man positively hated small family farms.
Perhaps you could point to a statement or policy that verifies this assertion.
But where did the year end up? 2.9% year to year growth. The same as Obama's best year of growth (2015).
Except that if one calculates year to year growth the same way it was calculated for 2015 then year to year growth fr 2018 was 3.1%. Better than any other the 8 years under Obama.
Freder Frederson said...
That man positively hated small family farms.
Perhaps you could point to a statement or policy that verifies this assertion.
oo! oo! i'll play! i'll play!
obama considered ALL farms to be navigable waterways
There is love all around in the Trump world why Kim and Trump exchanged love letters; these are leaders with heart.
Golda Mier: Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us.
What’s really interesting is Trump has a ME plan, too. Settling wars, feeding children, giving hope; it’s a good thing this US president has a big heart and the hammer needed.
It’s for the children RV. At least someone is doing something and something different than just payoffs.
Not really. Basically all measures of income have been slowly improving since the financial crisis
I prefer the new new normal, not the old new normal. Or is it the the old old normal?
"...a poverty of material resources — which his policies have worsened .."
Apparently throwing in this kind of thing is the price of admission at WaPo for getting anything printed that is not vehemently anti-Trump.
What’s really interesting is Trump has a ME plan, too.
And what exactly is it? I know Kushner has been working on a grand Middle East Peace Plan. But nobody has any idea (and I bet that includes Kushner himself) what is in it. It is always coming out "soon".
@gilbar, thanks. I was just going to point Freder in the direction of the books of Joel Saladin.
Not really. Basically all measures of income have been slowly improving since the financial crisis
I prefer the new new normal, not the old new normal. Or is it the the old old normal?
——-
2) They need it pointed out that calling people moral reprobates and saying the country will be better off when they die and that their culture is crap is not the way to get their votes?
And yet this is precisely the way Trump is characterizing those who do not agree with him.
I have no issue with Trump repeating what the democrats say.
I love your expectations Fréder! I can’t wait until the next dem president has everything prepared inaugural day. And it puts every plan out there for all to see and discuss.
Every one of Inga's examples is a blatant, deliberate lie.
There were good people on both sides at Charlottesville, and bad people on both sides too. Trump spoke the truth.
Inga's favorite leftist thugs, ANTIFA, were there as well as a few Neo-Nazis.
Trump was obviously referring to neither in his speech. He was referring to people who do not want the Confederacy to be revered and remembered and to people who believe in free speech.
Inga, you lie like a rug. You lie deliberately. Everything you say is a deliberate, vicious lie. You seem proud of this.
oo! oo! i'll play! i'll play!
Well, you lose. First of all, Obama's rule (and this is rarely if ever pointed out) would have merely returned the definition of navigable waters to the definition that was operative from the inception of the Clean Water Act until 2001, when an activist Supreme Court threw that definition out for bullshit reasons. And considering how much you apparently love to fish, I would think you would be very concerned about the proposed watershed protection (or rather lack thereof) that the Trump administration is trying to push (which would limit the protections of the Clean Water Act only to those waterways that actually support commercial navigation).
"Bago: Those of us who have actually worked in E&P have known about fracked fields for 50+ years. The only thing was waiting for Hubbert's peak (flowable) oil to make it economic."
Yea, old news, but my question was is fracking a good thing or not. Was it good under Obama? Is it good under Trump?
Inga's next deliberate lie... that Trump mocked a disabled man.
Trump used a dismissive hand gesture at a rally that he's used all his life with all manner of people.
Inga, you lie habitually and deliberately.
I don't think you can tell the truth.
I love your expectations Fréder!
You said that Trump has a plan. It is not a plan if it hasn't been published.
And I like how you went to the extra effort to put an accent on the e in my name. But Freder is German and the Germans don't use that accent.
You said that Trump has a plan. It is not a plan if it hasn't been published.
No, he doesn't have a plan, which is his strength.
He's a pragmatist who responds to the demands of the moment.
Grand plans are for commies.
Year over year economic growth was 3.1 percent.
Anybody who wants to use a never before used statistic to redefine how GDP is measured is lying.
Yes, the poster above is lying.
Navigable waters means waters on which people could travel. That was the definition laid down in the Constitution. The federal government cannot modify the Constitution without an amendment. No amendment has been suggested. Therefore, the federal government cannot grant itself power the Constitution does not give it.
Obama wanted puddles after rainstorms to be declared navigable. That was an unconstitutional policy position.
And President Nixon has never been so defended as on his overreach. Leftists love Nixon, apparently.
"It's not a plan if it hasn't been published???" WTF?? You can assert that he has no plan if you want, but the logic behind your assertion should be something better than "I know this because he has not told me personally" if you want to convince anyone.
It is not a plan if it hasn't been published.
Really? Shouldn't you get clean and sober before you comment here?
Doubling compared to how many farms? Where did you learn statistics?
Who leaked our secret plan for Trump's second term to Dworkin anyways?
If food prices were higher, that would be proof that Trump hates the poor. The assertion that Trump is a hater is unfalsifiable.
There are 28,000 farms in Montana alone
What percentage is 40?
Hate Loves Abortion
Grand plans are for commies.
Plan. Planned. Wicked solutions. Progressive leaps.
Navigable waters means waters on which people could travel. That was the definition laid down in the Constitution.
You must have a special copy of the constitution, because I can't find a mention of navigable waters in the constitution, let alone a definition. And the issue is not whether a particular body of water is navigable, it is the extent the undisputed right the federal government has to control pollution in such waters by regulating pollution flowing into those waters.
It's cute that the word navigable can mean whatever you prefer.
Through the Looking Glass, indeed.
Maybe waters can be defined as any liquid anywhere.
The feds can now regulate inside your body.
Whammo.
Presto.
Gibbons v Ogden (1824)
"...navigable waters..."
As a matter of constitutional law, this is well-settled.
The feds can now regulate inside your body.
The first step is carbon sequestration, which progresses to a carbon-free humanity, less the humanity.
As a matter of constitutional law, this is well-settled.
It is well settled that the federal government has jurisdiction over "navigable waters". Exactly what constitutes a navigable water is much less well defined. Is it any water you can float a kayak or pirogue on? Or is it limited to those waters that are navigable for commerce? If it is the latter, what does navigable for commerce. Does that include small draft commercial fishing boats or any waterway where harvesting of wildlife or fish is done for commercial purposes? And there were undoubtedly many more waterways that were navigable for commerce in 1824 than now. For instance, Lake Pontchartrain in Louisiana used to be a major waterway and back door into New Orleans through Bayou Saint John, especially for coastal ships. Except for a few very small fishing and shellfish boats, it is no longer used for commercial navigation.
And again, whether or not a particular body is navigable is not the real sticky issue. What is constantly argued is to what extent the federal government can control pollution flowing into navigable waterways even if the source is intermittent, or not connected by surface water.
No love in/for Dems. BUM-MER.
And yet this is precisely the way Trump is characterizing those who do not agree with him. - Freder
Bullshit. The biggest difference between Trump and politicians on your side of the aisle is Trump takes his shots at the media, pols and fellow elected officials. In other words, he doesn't punch down.
Barack Obama - and Hillary Clinton - specifically and deliberately shit all over the citizenry that didn't support them. Regular people. Deplorables and bitter clingers, as it were.
If you feel Trump is insulting you when he calls out your allies in the media and Congress, that's on you. Not him.
How much love Trump expresses...
“I’d love to punch that guy right in the face!”
Maybe he should've said to punch back twice as hard.
Maybe bring a gun if we being a knife.
How about punishing his enemies and rewarding his friends?
Or if all else fails, maybe he could exhort his supporters to get in your faces?
Just shut the fuck up for once.
Blogger bagoh20 said...
"Bago: Those of us who have actually worked in E&P have known about fracked fields for 50+ years. The only thing was waiting for Hubbert's peak (flowable) oil to make it economic."
Yea, old news, but my question was is fracking a good thing or not. Was it good under Obama? Is it good under Trump?
It's been fantastic. It's a great bridge fuel to help get rid of coal and get city buses off of diesel. It's responsible for the US reducing total carbon dioxide emissions. Neither Trump nor Obama can take credit.
"It is well settled that the federal government has jurisdiction over "navigable waters"."
The question of what feeds into "navigable waters" has resulted in absurdities such as the regulation of sometimes-flooded furrows in ploughed fields as "wetlands", requiring crop changes, for instance, or changes in farm buildings or sales of agricultural land to require time consuming and expensive regulatory filings.
“Just shut the fuck up for once.”
No. Take your own advice.
Again, some people are thru the Looking Glass.
Navigable means whatever they want it to mean, precisely when they use it, subject to infinite change.
Puddles after desert rain storms were declared navigable under Obama.
But that lay lies absolute power bestowed to a president thru administrative agencies.
That means Trump gets to play by the same rules.
In your blind pursuit of power all the trees are gone and the devil has turned 'round on you.
You are a fool.
But where did the year end up? 2.9% year to year growth. The same as Obama's best year of growth (2015).
Wow, so Obama had one year out of eight that was as high as Trump's first year? And 2.9% was Obama's best year despite coming out of a deep recession, which usually results in at least one year of 4% or higher. Growth in 1984 was 7.2%. 2.9% in the 9th year of an expansion is more impressive.
James K,
The 2.9 number is a lie convicted by Democrats who had to invent a new number to deny Trump his stated goal.
Anybody who spreads that lie is a liar, see above.
...conceived by Democrats...
The question of what feeds into "navigable waters" has resulted in absurdities such as the regulation of sometimes-flooded furrows in ploughed fields as "wetlands", requiring crop changes, for instance, or changes in farm buildings or sales of agricultural land to require time consuming and expensive regulatory filings.
These are not absurdities, or if they are, it is only that the line is very hard to define. Much of the water pollution in this country is from farm lands because such pollution is not from a point source.
If you would like to update the CWA to better define waters of the U.S. and control more non-point sources, you will get no beef from me. It should have been overhauled over 20 years ago (along with most of the other environmental laws passed in the late 60's and 70's).
" Trump's love is not real love."
Wrong. This is pure projection - Democrat politicians are the insincere glad-handers (we have a more colorful phrase for that where I'm from, grin-f*%kers). All they want from you is your vote, and they will promise you anything to get it, and then deliver nothing.
I did not know Lefties were such huge Nixon fans.
That said, they only applaud those Acts because they are tools to hand that could yield total power if the constitutional strictures can be removed. The only hope is that complete power can be exercised via a central authority.
These are not absurdities,
Yes they are!
or if they are, it is only that the line is very hard to define.
No it isn’t, or if it is it’s only because bureaucrats are trying to figure out not what makes sense, it how they can enlarge the scope of what their office does in a way they can leverage into promotions.
Much of the water pollution in this country is from farm lands because such pollution is not from a point source.
A true statement, for a change, But why the “solution” is give EPA the right to regulate every mud puddle is a question Freder can only answer by saying “government gooooooddd, ordinary farmers baaaaaadddd.”
A true statement, for a change, But why the “solution” is give EPA the right to regulate every mud puddle is a question Freder can only answer by saying “government gooooooddd, ordinary farmers baaaaaadddd.”
That is not what I said at all. I said we need an updated CWA. And if not the EPA, who should be regulating the farmers, especially considering that water pollution is a multi state and Federal issue? What a farmer does in parts of Montana or Pennsylvania, Iowa, North Dakota, Pennsylvania (hell even small parts of Canada) and everywhere in between directly impacts pollution levels in the Gulf of Mexico.
Yes they are!
Even if they are (and both you, with your "mud puddle" crack, and buwaya's of "sometimes flooded furrows" are gross exaggerations of the actual scope of the rule), it is any more absurd than saying that just because water enters a waterway through a shallow aquifer, rather than a surface water, even if the source of that water is surface water just a few miles away, it is not covered under the CWA (and that is what Trump would like to see, not some made up boogeyman that you and buwaya are spreading).
The 2.9 number is a lie convicted by Democrats who had to invent a new number to deny Trump his stated goal.
Even if the 2.9 number is a lie cooked up (I assume that is what you mean by "convicted") Democrats (and I will give you the slightly higher 3.1 number since I don't know where this 3.1 not 2.9 meme started and care too little to track down which is actually correct), how does this deny Trump of his stated goals? The low estimate of the growth resulting from the tax cuts was 3% (and that level of growth is nowhere near enough for the cuts to "pay for themselves). So by that token, you squeaked in just under the wire. Congratulations!
But 3% is not Trump's goal. He (and his advisors, most egregiously that moron Larry Kudlow) boasted he saw “no reason why we don’t go to 4, 5, even 6%.” After his one quarter of 4+% growth, he assured us that the future was going to be even better. It hasn't been.
Talk about raising the chocolate ration!
It is not exaggeration to say the Obama Administration wanted to claim puddles left after yearly rain storm in the middle of deserts were wetlands. The goal was complete power. And you approve the centralization that gives Trump extraordinary power.
That's on you, Leftist.
The very next comment I corrected the auto-un-correct.
It's nice that you accept you are a liar.
Two tenths of one percent of US GDP means more than $40,000,000,000 more dollars for Americans.
Just under the wire, indeed.
What a boob.
And here's more:
The difference between W/Obama growth and all the other post-WWII presidents, including Trump, is America averaged barely 2% under W/Obama and 3% otherwise. And that means a net doubling of GDP (rule of 69) that America enjoyed.
Europe, on the other hand, averaged 2% and has called far behind America on a per capita basis.
Over regulation is a bitch that way.
It is not exaggeration to say the Obama Administration wanted to claim puddles left after yearly rain storm in the middle of deserts were wetlands.
Actually it is a gross exaggeration to say the rule covers "puddles". In fact if you read the current proposed rule, you will see nowhere does the 2015 rule mention "puddles", except for changes made after the public comment period where "puddles" were specifically excluded from regulation. So not only are you wrong, you are just plain lying.
slouching toward westminister:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/03/06/jeremy-corbyn-backtracks-putting-daughter-adviser-charge-investigating/
So the Obama Administration proposed rule covered puddles.
But after public comment puddles were excluded.
And I am therefore a liar that Obama wanted to cover puddles?
Yeah, dude, you're terrible at this.
Brutally bad in a way that makes me sad for you.
See here:
https://www.epa.gov/cwa-404/section-404-clean-water-act-how-wetlands-are-defined-and-identified
"In more common language, wetlands are areas where the frequent and prolonged presence of water at or near the soil surface drives the natural system meaning the kind of soils that form, the plants that grow and the fish and/or wildlife communities that use the habitat. Swamps, marshes and bogs are well-recognized types of wetlands. However, many important specific wetland types have drier or more variable water systems than those familiar to the general public. Some examples of these are vernal pools (pools that form in the spring rains but are dry at other times of the year), playas (areas at the bottom of undrained desert basins that are sometimes covered with water) and prairie potholes."
Dude!
Puddles in deserts are included according to the EPA.
Why?
Because in the week or two the puddles are there, some plant life blooms.
Fucking puddles.
Again:
Sad for you.
Because in the week or two the puddles are there, some plant life blooms.
Fucking puddles.
I'm sorry, but where in the definition you cite are "fucking puddles" mentioned?
"...pools that form in the spring rains but are dry at other times of the year..."
"...areas at the bottom of undrained desert basins that are sometimes covered with water..."
I quoted the EPA, you fucking ignorant schmoe.
I provided a link, dumb ass.
What makes you want this much ass whooping?
Oh
https://freebeacon.com/issues/roll-call-smears-jewish-groups-that-called-for-omars-removal-from-house-committee/
What makes you want this much ass whooping?
Just because you read "vernal pools", "playa" and "prairie potholes", don't understand the meaning of these words, and are too fucking ignorant to educate yourself, doesn't mean that your caveman brain saying to you "they are talking about fucking puddles" is a correct interpretation of these moderately complicated concepts.
I know a lot of other idiots on this forum will defend you and say "yes, they are talking about fucking puddles". But a bunch of idiots parroting each other does not mean you have developed a collective intelligence that knows more than how to tie your own shows.
Run with that.
You're wrong and the EPA says so.
Hard for you to accept being wrong.
Good for you that the federal government has tried to claim expansive powers that stretch "navigable waters" to include potholes or pools on desert floors.
Now Trump has those powers.
Enjoy.
Run with that.
You're wrong and the EPA says so.
Instead of basically saying, "nuh uh, you're stupid", the correct response would be, "a puddle (and now it apparently includes a "pool") is the same as a playa, prairie pothole or vernal pool because . . ."
Sorry, can't finish the statement for you because apparently my brain is incapable of mimicking your level of stupidity.
"I quoted the EPA, you fucking ignorant schmoe."
And where, you fucking ignorant schmoe, in the quote is the word "puddle".
Small bodies of water have many names.
For example, another person could call you:
Ignorant
Freder
Dumb ass
Frederson
Moron
Freder Frederson
Schmoe
In each case, you have been properly called.
Freder Frederson said...
"It is not exaggeration to say the Obama Administration wanted to claim puddles left after yearly rain storm in the middle of deserts were wetlands.
Actually it is a gross exaggeration to say the rule covers "puddles". In fact if you read the current proposed rule, you will see nowhere does the 2015 rule mention "puddles", except for changes made after the public comment period where "puddles" were specifically excluded from regulation. So not only are you wrong, you are just plain lying."
When I bought my house I got the abandoned right of way from an old railroad spur. It's in a kind of man made ravine. In the spring the old roadway is wet and therefore I can't build on it or alter it in any way. So that's where the brush cuttings go. Your state may have it's own EPA rules.
https://www.epa.gov/cwa-404/section-404-clean-water-act-how-wetlands-are-defined-and-identified
"In more common language, wetlands are areas where the frequent and prolonged presence of water at or near the soil surface drives the natural system meaning the kind of soils that form, the plants that grow and the fish and/or wildlife communities that use the habitat. Swamps, marshes and bogs are well-recognized types of wetlands. However, many important specific wetland types have drier or more variable water systems than those familiar to the general public. Some examples of these are vernal pools (pools that form in the spring rains but are dry at other times of the year), playas (areas at the bottom of undrained desert basins that are sometimes covered with water) and prairie potholes."
Again, dry areas that have periodic rains, including deserts that are dry 50/51 weeks per year are considered wetlands.
pla·ya
[ˈplīə]
NOUN
playas (plural noun)
an area of flat, dried-up land, especially a desert basin from which water evaporates quickly.
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