REP. ILHAN OMAR (D-MN): On February 8, 1982, you testified before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee about U.S. policy in El Salvador. In that hearing you dismissed as communist propaganda reports about the massacre in El Mozote in which more than 800 civilians, including children as young as two years old, were brutally murdered by U.S.-trained troops. During that massacre, some of those [American] troops bragged about raping 12-year-old girls before they killed them … You later said that the U.S. policy in El Salvador was a fabulous achievement. Yes or no do you still think so?The questioning continues. Omar has something she wants to establish — that the U.S. had responsibility for human rights violations in the past in Latin American, Abrams was involved and dishonest about it, so we need to worry that whatever we do in Venezuela will lead to human rights violations and Abrams will be dishonest again. She's completely confrontational, and Abrams responds combatively.
ABRAMS: From the day that President Duarte was elected in a free election to this day, El Salvador has been a democracy. That’s a fabulous achievement.
OMAR: Yes or no, do you think that massacre was a fabulous achievement that happened under our watch?
ABRAMS: That is a ridiculous question.
OMAR: Yes or no?
ABRAMS: No.
OMAR: I will take that as a yes.
ABRAMS: I am not going to respond to that kind of personal attack, which is not a question.
February 14, 2019
When "no" means "yes": "Yes or no?"/"No"/"I will take that as a yes."
Ilhan Omar — a member of the House Foreign Affairs Committee — was questioning Elliott Abrams. Abrams — who is now Trump's special envoy to Venezuela — held foreign policy positions in the Reagan administration in the 1980s and was accused at the time (see Wikipedia) of covering up atrocities committed by U.S.-backed governments in El Salvador, Honduras, and Guatemala.
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1 – 200 of 345 Newer› Newest»She couldn't even get his name right.
Good for Rep. Omar. Someone has to contront these scum on their responsibility for our complicity in murder and torture in other countries. (Calling it "civil rights violations" sanitizes the reality.)
She is a fool, and her being on the Foreign Affairs Committee is a GIANT JOKE on America.
America is made stronger by our diversity. We need more affirmative action hires like this. Maybe we could bring in some East Asian influence, but I think Pol Pot is unavailable.
Odd that she had to read her "question."
Gotta love Cookie, no one hates America as well as a progressive.
The GIANT JOKE is that Elliot Abrams is allowed to be included in polite company. He is complicit in war crimes. If not for a presidential pardon he would have been in jail. He should have slunk away like the worm he is and retired quietly (or at least found God and attempted to atone for his sins).
As this goes on I become more and more convinced that President Trump was actively, if covertly, involved in getting these folks, including AOC elected.
They are clearly incompetent even by politician's abysmally low standards. Turning over the rocks exposes the Democrat brand for what it is rather than what it pretends to be.
John Henry
@ImanMohamadTawhidi had the best reply to her: "Amazing what time can do. Little girl from the deserts of Somalia speaking like that to the President of the United States. If you had tweeted that to President Farmajo of Somalia, he would have applied Sharia Law onto you; the law you cherish so much. Behave yourself, guest."
294 replies 1,673 retweets 5,756 likes
Omar was over the top. Abrams is Jewish. Might that be a factor?
Omar is providing the GOP with video of the true face of the Democrat Party.
The GIANT JOKE was that Congress took sides against America in Iran/Contra and made diplomacy illegal. Did you have similar qualms against supporting the Nicaraguan government against the former Sandanistas who largely composed the Contras?
Because there have been NO human right issues in Venezuela with Maduro at the helm, right??? WOW. SMH.
First of all, she can barely read English. Second, she refused to call him by his correct (Jewish) name, calling him "Adams".
Third, this a remarkable defense of her 'motives' by Althouse.
"During that massacre, some of those [American] troops bragged about raping 12-year-old girls before they killed them …"
From the context she was actually implying "those [U.S. trained] troops".
Had they been U.S. troops, the obvious question would be why weren't they prosecuted?
That said all she is doing is carrying water for the regimes in Caracas and Tehran.
OMAR: Yes or no?
ABRAMS: No.
OMAR: I will take that as a yes.
Stalin smiles.
some of those [American] troops bragged about raping 12-year-old girls before they killed them
What American troops?
Not only couldn't she get his name right, she couldn't even read the questions right.
Reminds me of al sharpton's prompter incompetency. Search Sharpton vs the teleprompter in YouTube to see what I mean.
John Henry
She's right. There should be repercussions for lying to Congress and covering up failed policies. This guy shouldn't not be allowed in polite company.
He was convicted of lying to Congress. Why wasn't Clapper and Brennan not convicted (let alone charged or even forced out).
So now you have this weasel creeping back in.
I sort of agree with cook here though not necessarily about El Salvador in 1981.
Abrams and that whole crew are horrible people. Why do they keep coming back like a bad case of herpes?
John Henry
And yet Bill, Republic of Texas, Clapper and Brennan are spewing their lies on CNN and other top cable news shows.
Which American units were used in action in Honduras, Nicaragua or El Salvador in the 80's. Answer that question, before you claim Abrams "covered up atrocities" in those days.
When a questioner demands that the question be answered only with a yes or no, the questioner wants to prevent clarification.
This is just the warm up for the post-Mueller circus that breaks out on Capital Hill.
The evidence will be unimportant.
The testimony will be unimportant.
What will be important is how the questioners rephrase the answers and interpret their own rephrasing as “the truth”.
She's like a Dixiecrat from the late 1940's early 1950's in that no good for the body politic will come from her political faction. We're a long way from Thermidor. There's a bad moon on the rise.
When a questioner demands that the question be answered only with a yes or no, the questioner wants to prevent clarification.
And by doing so, make it easier to prosecute them for “lying”.
Wish Abrams had asked Rep Omar 'Did you marry your brother to get entry into the US: Yes or No.' Omar: 'No'. Abrams: I'll take that as a yes."
He covered up atrocities and she’s a bigot. Everyone loses.
alan709 -- brilliant !!
She’s an unconvicted felon. The US Attorney in MN should indict her for immigration fraud. She married her brother to get him into the US.
Why should we believe a felon? At least she doesn’t beat her spouse/partner like Keith X.
Whatever happened in El Salvador, it wasn't "genocide". I don't think we should diminish that word by misapplying it for emotional impact.
He was convicted of lying to Congress.
No, he plead guilty to avoid the massive expense and risk of a trial. The lie was that he wasn't sure he was allowed to divulge something to a House committee and corrected it after he got the OK.
Omar did not use the word "[American]". Which idiot added it?
Calls are coming from the right fir the left to keep turning left under the assumption they will be easier to beast as the voting populace rejects thier ridiculousness and open bigotry. Unfortunately the dislike for Trump runs so great on the left even the reasonable amongst seem willing to overlook a little fascism.
Ilhan Omar is not a good look for Democrats.
The overt hatred on the part of Omar is frightening. She's engaged in unconstrained war (or jihad).
She certainly has the high ground. Her birth-country, Somalia, and her religion, Islam, are beacons of morality the rest of the world should emulate. Oh, and she married her brother.
Did you marry your brother to get entry into the US
I believe that she married her brother so HE could get into the country.
Neither side seemed to come off looking good. But from the transcript provided, Ilhan noted that Abrams said the massacre didn't happen, and then asked a question in which the massacre is assumed to be real in order to answer yes or no. Abrams then dodges the question.
Ilhan Omar almost makes you pine for the days of John Dingell.
But people still love Obama and whatever it was our government has been doing over in Libya, Syria, Yemen, etc.
She's a disgraceful, ignorant fool. An embarrassment to the Democrat Party, an embarrassment to Congress.
I don't like the "No" "I'll take that as a yes" game.
Didn't Obama praise the Muslim Brotherhood when it took over in Egypt? Bet they don't support jihad or terror.
Some Republicans are now suggesting that we donate to her campaign. IT would be a shame to lose her as foil.
Professor Althouse;
someone (presumably you?) placed an [American] into 'those troops'
this implies that the Troops were American, that is United States Armed Forces.
If this was your insertion, please change it to [Central American] or [government]
or, if you prefer [American Trained]
Else, please provide citations to the assertion that those troops were American?
thanx!
i have now read the assignment; and see it was NOT you that inserted that: My Apologies
However, i still want to state that they WERE NOT [American] troops
"I'll take that as a yes" game.
At least she's being honest. Let's have more of that from her, a lot more.
Way to go Minnesota! You've put an ignorant, hate-filled, ingrate immigrant in a position to sow discord and chaos among the Democrats and reveal just how they love to play footsie with anti-Semites. She would not use his "Jew name" Abrams, even, but kept calling him "Mr. Adams." She really is an unrelenting pre-programmed progressive automaton! (Yes, much like Inga!)
Minnesota Nice in action again.
She couldn't hold his cup of coffee. She's a slug who needs to crawl back under a rock. Aside from that, I'm going to send money to her reelection campaign. I think she's a great personality to have front and center as the face of the Dems.
Lean Forward.
to Quote Wikipedia:
The El Mozote Massacre took place in and around the village of El Mozote, in Morazán department, El Salvador, on the 11 December 1981, when the Salvadoran Army killed more than 800 civilians[1] during the Salvadoran Civil War.
In December 2011, the Salvadoran government apologised for the massacre.
"were brutally murdered by U.S.-trained troops. During that massacre, some of those [American] troops bragged about raping 12-year-old girls before they killed them … "
Some of THOSE troops [those trained by Americans], not American troops. Be a little more careful.
"Gotta love Cookie, no one hates America as well as a progressive."
Does "loving" American require we applaud our complicity in murder, torture and rape abroad?
Robert Cook said...
"Gotta love Cookie, no one hates America as well as a progressive."
Does "loving" American require we applaud our complicity in murder, torture and rape abroad?
2/14/19, 8:03 AM
Ask the Obama administration!
As opposed to the Venezuelan supported govt of ex guerillas that fund ms 13, back then the Soviets were trying to take over every country in central America and we werent going to let that happen.
Second, she refused to call him by his correct (Jewish) name, calling him "Adams".
I don't think she refused. She's reading someone else's script and didn't rehearse enough to get the words right.
One might see as analogous to the Houthi rebels backed by Iran which have broken the ceasefire 1,000 times in fact Karen de young was a cheerleader for both.
The commander btw general monterrosa was downed by the rebels a few years later
It's difficult (for me, possibly for no one else) to take this woman seriously because of the way she looks with her cherubic little face all wrapped up in that particular form of hijab she chooses to wear. She looks like a sweet little baby bubbling away all bundled up in swaddling clothes. (And in a horror movie she would morph into a vicious snarling demon just as some clueless female character picked her up and started cooing over her, but I digress).
This off-putting look could be overcome if she came across as erudite and serious in her demeanor but she doesn't, I would be willing to bet that she barely knows where these countries are, much less what their histories are or current problems. She's just...America...Bad...Death to the Great Satan. She's almost a caricature. Like exactly how you'd expect someone of her "faith tradition" and cultural background to behave.
Cook finds complicity in murder, torture and rape abroad, except in places run by the left, like China, the USSR, Vietnam, Cambodia/Kampuchea, Venezuela..... No rape, torture or murder happened there.
You can take the Somali out of the shithole, but you can't take the shithole-iness out of the Somali.
I am not in her district, but the MN-5 Congressional district has really outdone themselves this time.
Omar was using the 800 number picked up in the international press at the time based on contemporaneous insurgent propaganda.
The Truth Commission stated in its final report:
There is full proof that on December 11, 1981, in the village of El Mozote, units of the Atlacatl Battalion deliberately and systematically killed a group of more than 200 men, women and children, constituting the entire civilian population that they had found there the previous day and had since been holding prisoner... there is [also] sufficient evidence that in the days preceding and following the El Mozote massacre, troops participating in "Operation Rescue" massacred the non-combatant civilian population in La Joya canton, in the villages of La Rancheria, Jocote Amatillo y Los Toriles, and in Cerro Pando canton.
The U.S. funded the Salvadoran death squads thru fronts like US AID.
I'm pretty conservative. There's no way around recognizing that the U.S. bears some responsibility for the social chaos in El Salvador that gave birth to MS-13.
I'm Catholic. The Catholic Church fought as best as it could to stop the atrocities. Archbishop Romero paid the ultimate price.
Has anyone been to Minneapolis lately? Because if you get rid of Ilhan Omar there are tens of thousand of people just like her there, and it wouldn't change a thing.
Blogger alanc709 said...
Wish Abrams had asked Rep Omar 'Did you marry your brother to get entry into the US: Yes or No.' Omar: 'No'. Abrams: I'll take that as a yes."
I should have made that more clear, although the crime is the same regardless who it profited.
Why did we import Muslims from Somalia again?
Anyway, the electoral question remains a simple one: will the Althouses of the world support the Dems, giving aid and comfort to the Omars among progs, or not?
In the midterms, the nice white women upset with Trump did. We'll see if they want to empower the left even more next time.
AllenS - you are correct. The Cedar-Riverside apartments are known as Little Mogadishu around here.
No aid was funding the land reform program that failed in both south Vietnam and Iran,
The policy question not addressed is whether there would be more civilian death without that US counter insurgency training.
For Omar, however, I suspect the issue is how to help the insurgents win.
Had Batista had been as diligent as the salvadorans there would have been no Fidel no Raul who have drained the country like vampires for 60 years
Why don't we just get rid of Congress? Or at least get rid of Congressional Committees questioning people?
They all turn into a circus. And its all just hot air - and meaningless.
Free Speech is wonderful. The Muslim Jihadist just spoke freely from her heart that she visciously hates the man for being Jewish, no matter what he says.
I thought Abrams was a NeverTrumper. Why is he now working for Trump? I guess power makes you forget your "principles".
And in a horror movie she would morph into a vicious snarling demon
Sally, you need to find the viseo of her the day after her forced "apology" where her face does resemble a snarling demon as she seethes with anger and hisses at a reporter who asked if she had anything to add to her written statement, "I think everything that needs to be said was in my statement." There's a LOT of sibilance in her answer as she shoots eye=darts at the female reporter. (She appears to hold women in disdain, or perhaps she just holds EVERYBODY in disdain.)
Anti-semite conspiracy theorist pretends to care about human rights in order to support a tyrannical socialist regime that is horrible on human rights. The fact that she gets to attack a Jew in the process is simply a bonus. It's glorious.
15 years ago, I was at north 2nd St Minneapolis buying a bunch of steel, and about a dozen completely covered women (black, I could see their hands) walked by. I laughed looking at them walking by the business across the street which was a bar/strip joint. Not funny anymore, and hasn't been for quite a while.
She's reading someone else's script and didn't rehearse enough to get the words right.
She ought to what his name is, even if she has to read everything else, unless her staff and the committee's are complete idiots, which we can't rule out.
"Had they been U.S. troops, the obvious question would be why weren't they prosecuted?"
Were our troops prosecuted for the atrocity they committed at My Lai, (and other similar events) in Viet Nam? Lt. Calley was prosecuted and he was ultimately served a very few years of home detention, and then was freed. However, the heroic U.S. helicoptor pilot who saw what was happening and landed his chopper on the ground blocking a group of Vietnamese from the U.S. soldiers who were about to kill them was condemned by some in the government and in the military for his heroism.
Once again, Cookie and Freder have assumed the high moral and intellectual ground, but have merely shown themselves to be useful idiots for the Communists.
Comrade Stalin thanks you for your support.
Human rights doesn't work in fixing limited entry states. You have to pay off the people being paid off to keep the state nonviolent - they're paid off in proportion to their ability to cause the violence which is thereby prevented. Stop paying them and they veto the deal and the state becomes chaos.
There's no uncorrupt path from limited entry states to open entry states.
"Ask the Obama administration!"
And every other.
I thought Abrams was a NeverTrumper.
You may be thinking of Eliot Cohen.
Usually its the woman saying no and the man hearing yes.
Yes she's a supporter of the Somali Taliban, al Shabaab, which is also tied to al queda, who was responsible for the catalyst of black hawk down.
Robert Cook said...
And every other. [Administration]
Go ahead, Mr Cook, tell us about the other administrations.
She really is an unrelenting pre-programmed progressive automaton! (Yes, much like Inga!)
She's reading someone else's script and didn't rehearse enough to get the words right.
hmmm... has Anyone seen Ilhan and Igna together at the same time? I'm just saying*
just saying* if it's Okay to insinuate [explicitly State] that it was American Troops...
He had some stylistic differences with trump and is a little too enthusiastic about getting rid of prince salman.
"But people still love Obama and whatever it was our government has been doing over in Libya, Syria, Yemen, etc."
They are fools, just like those who love Trump, Bush, Clinton, Reagan, etc., etc.
"Once again, Cookie and Freder have assumed the high moral and intellectual ground, but have merely shown themselves to be useful idiots for the Communists."
Uh...what communists?
Gahrie said...
Usually its the woman saying no and the man hearing yes.
/thread
At a minimum, perhaps the administration could find someone with a bit less baggage than Abrams.
Elliot Abrams is a neoconversative hawk with an atrocious foreign policy record. Not just his terrible record in Latin America and the Iran-Contra Affair, but he is among the worst of the Iraq War dead enders. And recall that Abrams was the one who wrote: "Republicans who oppose Trump need to keep making the arguments that candidates like Rubio and Cruz and Bush made this year unsuccessfully. It didn't work this time but it can work next time, when voters see Trump collapse—and when they see an increasingly dangerous world and a Clinton administration wedded to a bloated federal government as the solution to every problem. "
"Cook finds complicity in murder, torture and rape abroad, except in places run by the left, like China, the USSR, Vietnam, Cambodia/Kampuchea, Venezuela..... No rape, torture or murder happened there.
Were we complicit in murder, torture and rape in those countries? If not, your comment is an inane non-sequitur.
As far as Venezuela is concerned, Omar seems to setting the propaganda stage to blame the US for the pay-back dished out to the regime's apparatchiks after the fall of the government by a population that was forced to eat scraps for years.
As opposed to whom the dems were all in for Maduro, as they gave been for Ortega fidel et al, that bus driver was the one on the short bus because his Noriega like rival Cabello is not favored by his Cuban regime masters
I don't see why anyone is expected to show restraint in the face of such obvious and one-sided bullying.
His answer should have been, "You'll take 'no' as 'yes'? I suppose that's fine, because I take you as a terrorist sympathizer who married her own brother."
The just watch the sputtering and faux outrage.
Bravo to Shouting Thomas for his comment at 8:12 AM.
Slowly replace your own religious beliefs and organizing principles to allow Western Left radicalism increasing traction under an umbrella of secular idealism/humanism.
Import people from a different culture and/ or religion, rewarding and encouraging Western Left radicalism.
Amongst various competing tribes of not fully integrated people, elect officials committed to Western Left radical principles.
Wallow in your guilt, continue allowing the growth of Western Left radicalism, and blame everyone else (the other party, especially) for your failures.
Liberation is next.
I very happy to see that the rule that you must be extremely deferential to Congresspeople (can I put them that way?) is passing.
"His answer should have been, 'You'll take "no" as "yes"? I suppose that's fine, because I take you as a terrorist sympathizer who married her own brother.'"
Abrams couldn't answer that way because he knows she has his number.
And follow Robert Cook. He’s got a great road map.
Just a taste of when the Muslims take over, or try to take over. The resistance here will be much more vigorous than that given by the croissant-chewing crowd.
The United States should not ally itself with any government accused by anyone of participating in a massacre at any time. Yes or No.
And the Unites States government should not ally itself with any government run by a party which while not in office and while functioning as a revolutionary group has been accused by anyone of participating in a massacre at any time. Yes or No.
And there is a government which has not been accused of a massacre. The name of that government is:
And the United States government can and should so completely control the actions of other governments with whom it is in any way allied as to prevent massacres or accusations of massacre in the future by anyone. Yes or No.
Sanchez ceren a fmr?? Guerilla is who is in charge of el salvador now, he funds the ms 13 infrastructure, now the guatemalan govt is center right, they've been pointing out who's been organizing these caravans
It’s about time the source of all moral dysfunction, disorder, and injustice (U.S government, crony capitalists) finally have to answer for their war crimes, huh, Robert?
Time to start taking it all apart so people like yourself, morally good people, people with the right knowledge, can start building that classless society?
It's much the same way with rhodesia where Carter and callaghan allowed Mugabe to come to power, despite the blood on his hands that the Griffin missionaries points out
"Omar did not use the word "[American]". Which idiot added it?"
Go to the linked article at RCP before jumping to conclusions.
Many posting here today are useful idiots for the "greatest country in the universe!" (sic).
Civil wars are ugly. A friend of mine was in a patrol in Vietnam that visited a friendly village and discovered that the VietCong had punished it by taking all the children, cutting of their hands and feet, and laying them out in the village center.
The difference is the guerillas were hiding among the civilian populations whereas maduros collectivos were targeting protesters right out in ths open (their version of a police death squad, officially the gang unit, faes)
For instance, the Somali government has been accused of the Isaaq massacre.
Isaaq Genocide committed by Somali government 1987-1989.
The Isaaq genocide or "Hargeisa Holocaust" was the systematic, state-sponsored massacre of Isaaq civilians between 1987 and 1989 by the Somali Democratic Republic under the dictatorship of Siad Barre. The number of civilian deaths in this massacre is estimated to be between 50,000-100,000 according to various sources, whilst local reports estimate the total civilian deaths to be upwards of 200,000 Isaaq civilians. This genocide also included the levelling and complete destruction of the second and third largest cities in Somalia, Hargeisa (which was 90 per cent destroyed) and Burao (70 per cent destroyed) respectively, and had caused up to 500,000 Somalis (primarily of the Isaaq clan) to flee their land and cross the border to Hartasheikh in Ethiopia as refugees, in what was described as "one of the fastest and largest forced movements of people recorded in Africa", and resulted in the creation of the world's largest refugee camp then (1988), with another 400,000 being internally displaced. The scale of destruction led to Hargeisa being known as the 'Dresden of Africa'. The killings happened during the Somali Civil War and have been referred to as a "forgotten genocide".
Nothing to see here. Just the typical Somali cruel neutrality.
No doubt, counter insurgency is a dirty business, especially the Cold War variant.
You can't always pick who will be your ideological allies, unless you want to walk straight into the colonial trap.
Typically they are decided by years of tenacious infighting within the country: our sons of bitches against theirs.
But notice the "reconciliation" movements started to happen rather contemporaneously with the fall of the Soviet Union.
Funny that.
The Central American proxy wars against the Russians in the early 80s.
As former Spanish colonies where Catholicism was imposed they were natural Communists.
I disagree with our policy back then. We should have let them turn commmunist and fail like Venezuela and Cuba. Let the Russians and Iranians and Chinese have to carry them financially.
But we should have no immigration from those countries or shitholes like Somalia.
Abrams and Omar are testaments to the failure in US policy. Abrams should have been banished and Omar should never have been allowed in this country in the first place.
But here they are.
It is such a lame and boring tactic whenever you criticize some aspect of US foreign policy and someone responds in a huff, "What about Russia? What about China? What North Korea?" That statement does not even logically follow. It's akin to the guy getting pulled over for a traffic infraction and going, "What are you doing bothering me; there are murderers out there." As Americans, our primary responsibility and culpability is with what the American government does, not with what other governments do.
@mccullough:
Abrams and Omar are testaments to the failure in US policy. Abrams should have been banished and Omar should never have been allowed in this country in the first place.
Agree completely.
Be careful Ann - you reap what you sow.
Massive misdirection by the usual subjects.
The issue is, What to do about the horrific humanitarian crisis in Venezuela today, caused by Socialist Asshole Hugo Chavez, continued by his successor Maduro, and enabled by the "see no Evil, hear no evil, speak no evil" crowd.
An historical inquiry into El Salvador from 35 years ago is fine, do it in some other forum. It won't help the starving people of Venezuela today.
And, Omar is simply a racist, Leftwing nitwit, unqualified to lead any discussion on any important topic, other than jihad.
It was Omar’s tone that riled me most. The arrogance is off the charts. Abrams’ tone was a perfect rebuff: ironic, dismissive, annoyed.
Her argument is mostly but not completely wrong. Abrams is a new-con and they deserve pushback for their failures.
Well this what we have in the case of those two countries, you feel safer now, but it doesn't end there because they become proxies with Hezbollah and al queda.
I'd like to see a more objective analysis of our foreign engagements and it's not un-American to be critical of our policies and practices. And I agree with Farmer that Abrams [and all neocons] have done more harm than good. Trump is no neocon and I hope he knows better than to get militarily involved in Venezuela. He's arranging for the humanitarian aid get to the people in Venezuela via Colombia and I pray that works.
That said, we are embracing American's true enemies to our bosom by allowing them entry and electing them to Congress. This will not end well.
Robert Cook
You are a man of principal. Rigid but principled. How can you bear to live in this country? If I shared your views and your principles I would be long gone.
EDH said...
But notice the "reconciliation" movements started to happen rather contemporaneously with the fall of the Soviet Union. Funny that.
"Finally, those capitalist pigs will pay for their crimes!"
Obama almost allowed Zelaya to take over Honduras and then sent weapons to the local affiliate of Ms through a fast and furious sou off, another apparat sponsored by the un seems to be a rolling star chamber against any center right govt
Re: Minneapolis
Late fall, early winter, I watched an encampment of American Indians sleeping in tents because they had no place to live in Minneapolis. I have never heard one story about any homeless Somalis. There's some cruel neutrality right there.
Links to counterpunch notwithstanding, can you provide anything more than a few facts, asked to carry a massive, mystical belief system and failed theory of history full of economic insights and monstrous totalitarianism?
Did you ever stop to think which parts of reality and your own nature you’ve obfuscated by clinging to such a narrow, rigid ideology, Robert?
What parts of your own character and thoughts are animating right now as you come to proselytize?
What’s true, and how do you know it’s true?
Which is pursuing Russian exiles in Guatemala, as of recent vintage, I just point out much of what the left wanted to happen had eventuated in central America and still they blame the us.
Really, really good post, Althouse!
we are embracing American's true enemies to our bosom by allowing them entry and electing them to Congress. This will not end well.
It's fixed but it's the only game in town. Trump has no allies in DC, just as Perot would have had no allies.
This tells much of the tale.
This is what President Trump has been dealing with from the day he walked into the Presidency. The Mediacracy’s mediocrities set out to destroy him from Day One. The lies began immediately: He is an anti-Semite. Lie. He took a bust of Rev. Dr. King out of the oval office. Lie. He is a White supremacist. Lie.
No sooner was he at work than the hordes descended on his spokesman, Sean Spicer. Later they would throw the next spokesperson and her family out of a restaurant. And that evil Mueller Inquisition. One of these days, between tomorrow and the end of Mr. Trump’s second term in six years, we will see that Mr. Trump did not collude with Putin, but that Inquisition has taken so much air out of his every day.
@Bay Area Guy:
The issue is, What to do about the horrific humanitarian crisis in Venezuela today, caused by Socialist Asshole Hugo Chavez, continued by his successor Maduro, and enabled by the "see no Evil, hear no evil, speak no evil" crowd.
Considering that Abrams is a special envoy for regime change in Venezuela, his record in Latin America is salient. But on the question of what should be done with Venezuela, my answer is nothing. We should stay out it and let the internal power struggle work its way out.
The people of MN sent Omar to Washington to mau-mau the flak catchers, and that's exactly what she's doing. This is what democracy looks like.
Omar really is a gift to her political opponents: she came off as shrill and angry, while also underprepared and amateurish. Omar is not having a great debut under the big lights, and the mainstream media has yet to take up the story of her marriage to her brother and immigration fraud.
Because a Cambodian style bleed out will not affect the neighboring countries, you believe in unicorns farmer.
As usual, I am on the same page with Daniel Larison of The American Conservative:
"It is a measure of how completely hard-liners now dominate Trump administration foreign policy that a vocal Trump critic can be brought on to lead a high-profile foreign policy initiative. Venezuela policy has been designed by Rubio and Pompeo, both of whom are notoriously hawkish, and it is going to be carried out by a neoconservative with one of the bloodiest and ugliest foreign policy records of anyone that has served in government over the last forty years. All the while, Bolton couldn’t be happier with what has been happening. Trump is letting his foreign policy be conducted by some of the very worst people in the Republican Party, and it is just a matter of time before it blows up in his face at great cost to the U.S."
I almost asked myself--almost, because I'm more evolved than that--who would want to marry that girl?
Elliott Abrams is one of the top dogs in the deep state. You people automaticaly have his back because he is now working for Trump. By your own definition, you are cucks.
I'd like to blame the brutalities on modern ideologies, but they have been common forever, dating at least to the dawn of human history. Slaughter and mass murder are part of the human condition, their absence from warfare is rare and an artifact of a particular period in Western civilization. Look at what is going on in parts of Mexico even today, let alone in parts of Africa and other places where people are fighting. If you walk on the wild side, you are going to get dirty. The only way to avoid it is to not play, and that is not always a choice you are free to make.
@narciso:
Because a Cambodian style bleed out will not affect the neighboring countries, you believe in unicorns farmer.
As much of a basket case as Venezuela is, it is absurd to refer to it as "Cambodian style." That was a systematic genocide in which a quarter of the population was massacred in four years. Also, I never said that what happens in Venezuela does not affect the neighboring countries. There have been issues with Colombia over Venezuela for many years. The US is not one of those neighboring countries.
@Howard:
Elliott Abrams is one of the top dogs in the deep state. You people automaticaly have his back because he is now working for Trump. By your own definition, you are cucks.
Trump was elected, in part, to specifically reject everything Elliot Abrams stands for. Abrams himself detested Trump for being insufficiently interventionist. Bringing back gargoyles like Bolton and Abrams was a huge misstep for the Trump administration.
Omar's job was a proxy for Russia and Maduro, you wonder why Venezuela is such a dumpster fire why theres no food or toilet paper while the power goes out constantly,
No, not necessarily because American nationalism does involve action for strategic not merely humanitarian purposes.
@narciso:
Omar's job was a proxy for Russia and Maduro, you wonder why Venezuela is such a dumpster fire why theres no food or toilet paper while the power goes out constantly,
That sentence doesn't make grammatical sense. The cause of Venezuela's misery is rather obvious: central planning. Hayek described the dynamic 75 years ago in The Road to Serfdom.
Abrams should have asked "Are still married to your brother - yes or no?"
In 1967, Polish mercenary Rafal Ganowicz was asked what it felt like to take human life, “I wouldn’t know, I’ve only ever killed communists." The country could use a lot more Rafal's and a lot fewer terrorist cheerleading brother marrying cunts and their Commie enablers like Cooktard and Freder.
I cut and pasted the quote from the website I linked to. The bracketed bit I assume was clear in the larger context. If not, Real Clear Politics is much less trustworthy than I thought.
Who imposed ths central planning, Chavez who was a sleeper agent of the local guerilla group red flag, which followed a strictly east bloc model, although they made it possibly worse. Now maybe because they are Latinos you think they dont know any better or desert his tratment
I can understand why a Somali would want to GTFO and move to the USA, but why Minnesota, of all places?
@narciso:
Who imposed ths central planning, Chavez who was a sleeper agent of the local guerilla group red flag, which followed a strictly east bloc model, although they made it possibly worse. Now maybe because they are Latinos you think they dont know any better or desert his tratment
How does this statement contradict anything I've said? When have I ever defended Chavez or the Venezuelan model? And your last sentence is ridiculously overwrought. Do I think the people of central Africa deserve what they've experienced for the last several decades? No. Do I want the US to intervene in central Africa? No.
As Americans, our primary responsibility and culpability is with what the American government does, not with what other governments do.
Responsibility for the massacre belongs with those who perpetrated, ordered, or orchestrated it, or to a lesser degree knew about it in advance and let it happen. That Cook ignores the blame rightfully placed on others in order to blame America demonstrates his anti-Americanism. As far as I know there's no evidence America did any of these things.
The blame America crowd rests their case on nebulous support and conspiratorial connections none of which reasonably demonstrate any of the above. But to an anti-American any justification is sufficient to blame America for murder.
"In 1967, Polish mercenary Rafal Ganowicz was asked what it felt like to take human life, 'I wouldn’t know, I’ve only ever killed communists.' The country could use a lot more Rafal's and a lot fewer terrorist cheerleading brother marrying cunts and their Commie enablers like Cooktard and Freder."
Hmmm...someone else who hates America's principles.
By the way, never take as a statement of principles anything said by a mercenary. They're paid to kill and will kill whomever they're paid to kill. They don't see any people as human.
Is intervention in central Africa being contemplated, besides a large part of this has been the past administration's cooperating with the warlords that followed mobutu.
It's the way the New York times whitewashed the Ukrainian genocide and two generations later the Ethiopian one,
Abrams was a fool to answer any questions not addressed to him.
if it is true that "She would not use his "Jew name" Abrams, even, but kept calling him "Mr. Adams.""
Although they are fiction (based heavily on real characters and events), I have learned a lot about Mexico and what happened in Central America reading Don Winslow's Power of the Dog and The Cartel, two of the best books I've read in last 10 years. The U.S. did finance and/or participate in horrible crimes/massacres in Central America. What comes through in the books is the absolute gut-wrenching fear that the Reagan/Bush policy hawks had that Mexico could go Socialist - preventing that justified in their minds doing all sorts of horrifying things to the South of her. And we also did some pretty amazing things in Mexico to prop it up. It is fascinating and utterly depressing stuff.
Ilhan Omar - al Shabaab's AO-C in Congress - hardly a "joke."
And were likely to see that realization with Lopez obrador in power, it is a very narrow view of ths issues in the 80s, using much of the Christic institute narrative, the folks behind elder phillips.
It’s important that Omar make these accusations because, as we know, Muslims are blameless when it comes to atrocities.
Jihad Report
Feb 02, 2019 -
Feb 08, 2019
Attacks 37
Killed 188
Injured 78
Suicide Blasts 1
Countries 13
The Religion of Peace
Unrepentant Stalinist Robert Cook said, "Hmmm...someone else who hates America's principles."
The best American principle is the only good commie is a dead commie. Why don't you turn yourself into a good Commie?
Another great American principle is that if you are good at something, never do it for free. Why shouldn't Rafal be compensated for his good work?
Well thank God, Daniel Ortega was able to persist and finally take power in Nicaragua. Things are so much better now. Except for a small handful of US backed fascists, the people of South and Central America are nearly all gentle, hard working children of the soil who only want to tend their crops and raise their young. All fair minded people are struck by the way the Communists have always been able to recruit all that is brave and good in Latin America. The caudillos, on the other hand, have nothing to do with Latin America. Were it not for their American backs they simply would not exist. All evil people gravitate to the caudillos. All good people become Communists. It's just that simple.
@hombre:
It’s important that Omar make these accusations because, as we know, Muslims are blameless when it comes to atrocities.
What does that have to do with anything?
@William:
Congratulations on your deft ability at countering strawmen.
"It’s about time the source of all moral dysfunction, disorder, and injustice (U.S government, crony capitalists) finally have to answer for their war crimes, huh, Robert?"
Who says the U.S. government and our crony capitalists are the source of "all" evil and injustice in the world? However, that for which we are responsible should be condemned and the perpetrators punished. Would you say our criminals (even in government) should be any less answerable than the criminals (even in government) of other nations?
Omar should be removed. Period. She is a threat to our security.
Meade, don't know what you mean about the rcp article? It has a video of her comments. She didn't say that. She's awful, but that was a mistake.
"I can understand why a Somali would want to GTFO and move to the USA, but why Minnesota, of all places?"
Because MN wasn't yet a shithole. Now that it's full of Somalis, MN has, of course, become a shithole.
She's an Islamic snake. Screw her.
What does that have to do with anything?
We can understand people's bias and motives by observing that they react differently to similar events based on either the victims or the perpetrators.
So for example left wingers blame America for allowing the Rwandan mass murders. Left wingers also blame America for stopping mass murders by (at times) fighting communist invasions / revolutions or (at others) supporting those who did so. If they were principled America would have been correct in one of these instances.
Cook, Freder and other mindless, indistinguishable lefties toe the Howie Zinn line because there are no other accounts of the American story. History is only important when it serves the leftists and, as we now see, the Islamists, their newest partners in the destruction of the Republic.
It's the brezhnev doctrine, every center right regime must fall, every left wing regime must stay
@Dickin'Bimbos@Home:
Omar should be removed. Period. She is a threat to our security.
We may need to coin a new phrase: ODS, Omar Derangement Syndrome. Look, Omar is not anyone I would ever vote for, and if my preferred policies were followed, she wouldn't even be in the country. That said, she was duly elected, and while I thought her approach with Abrams was a bit over-the-top, overly combative, and probably counterproductive to her cause, it was refreshing nonetheless for a walking foreign policy disaster like Abrams to get called out and held accountable for his record. The fact that the likes of Abrams and Kagan and Kristol and Bolton keep getting Jobs in Republican administrations despite their long records of failure is a testament to the revolving door of the DC ruling class.
Actually there are, Carlos sabino for instance has a more nuanced view of Guatemala but the usual suspects like the apologists for the sandinistas and the mullahs prevail.
"Late fall, early winter, I watched an encampment of American Indians sleeping in tents because they had no place to live in Minneapolis."
Indigians would never have been reduced to sleeping in TENTS if the white man hadn't taken over their native lands!
@hombre:
Let me offer you some advice. Instead of obsessing over whose a "leftie" or not, how about you just try to concern yourself with the facts and the truth. For one thing, there is plenty of criticism of US foreign policy from a conservative perspective, so it does no good imagining it's all a leftwing fantasy.
And if you are worried about the destruction of the Republic, it isn't going to come from a failure to intervene in El Salvador. Immigration poses a much bigger threat to the Republic and it's been supported by every president of the last several decades, Democrat and Republican.
Well she's here, steering policy, like Chris Dodd a privileged white jackalope who enabled the sub prime scandal and then was allowed to write the bill to fix it.
@narciso:
Actually there are, Carlos sabino for instance has a more nuanced view of Guatemala but the usual suspects like the apologists for the sandinistas and the mullahs prevail.
Some unsolicited advice: your points would be much easier to understand if you could logically connect one sentence to the next.
Much of the argument here seems to be whether or not to intervene for moral reasons. Oddly, I think Robert's position is that intervention on moral grounds is not justified, that one should simply not participate. The Communists have an awful human rights record, and the argument seems to be that that is none of our business. That is certainly a valid position, let us call it the Swiss gambit. In support, it can also be pointed out that no one can really predict the future; who would have imagined current Vietnam and their friendly relations with the US in 1972? Or what would have transpired if we had simply stayed out of the fight. Likewise in the Greek Civil War, also marked by atrocities. Or even the Spanish Civil War, where we did stay out.
The ones who lost out in ths policy debates the Bonner's the kornbluhs who shaped policy in the 90s and beyond, wrote the narrative you're relying on
So who is lying - McCabe or Rosenstein?
One of them is lying. The point is that we do not need these freakish corrupt leftist liars in our government. If the left cannot respect that Hillary lost, I refuse to give any dignity or weight to the election of a total fraud, the lying She-snake from the state that duly elected Jesse Ventura.
Could the guerillas have prevailed against the tsalsaris regime quite possibly,
Again, I agree with Farmer. When we carelessly use the terms 'Right' and 'Left' [and I am as guilty as anyone] we are ignoring the fact that the Deep State is comprised of both sides of the aisle. We should question everything and everyone as to where their real interests lie. My support of Trump was based on his apparent concern for our country rather than providing for his own interests, as do most of our elected officials.
@J Farmer,
You state that you would do nothing in Venezuela.
That's a viable option that definitely needs to be on the table, post Cold War, post several ill-conceived adventurisms in the Middle East by our Neo-Con Republican friends.
You and I could probably have a good discussion on the issue.
That's not what Omar was doing. Likely, she supports Chavez/Maduro, even if it ends in the destruction of Venezuela. So, fuck her. She's a dangerous nitwit, a tool for the jihadists.
As for El Salvador in the 80s, well, that's a LESS pressing issue, but an interesting one. We could again have a nice civilized discussion on it. However, we cant divorce it from the context of the Cold War, where we were faced with an existential nuclear threat from the Soviets. Abrams was definitely a hawk in the 80s, although my recollection was that he was only a mid-level hawk, not a policy maker.
In the 80s Reagan had to fight against the bureaucracy the likes of Robert white, who would wanted the guerrillas to win, his think tank cip, is where the staff for the Kerry committee came from, which set much of this narrative.
But you see the purpose of this exercise, so Maduro can be unaccountable, now Abrams is on thin ice with the democratic opposition who feel abandoned from their previous attempt in 2002
The 80s. Back when Saddam and Bin Laden were US allies. You sort of forget about Central America.
Blogger Bay Area Guy said... That's not what Omar was doing. Likely, she supports Chavez/Maduro, even if it ends in the destruction of Venezuela. So, fuck her.
Likely means you just made that up. You people just pull shit right out your ass then crush it and the crowd goes wild.
J. Farmer said...
“@hombre:
‘It’s important that Omar make these accusations because, as we know, Muslims are blameless when it comes to atrocities.’
What does that have to do with anything?”
I’ll take this as a momentary lapse in concentration on your part
The sum total of the attacks on Abrams here amount to the usual blather about neocon this and neocon that. Trump has criticized the neocons, but apparently Trump is more nuanced than many of those here who see nothing but simplistic black and white. Abrams was absolutely right to oppose the Communists in Central America in the 1980s, and I can assure you the vast majority in Nicaragua and El Salvador today would agree. In Omar's incoherent and ignorant rant pretending to be a questioning of Abrams, we see the romance of Communism conjoined to the Jew-hatred of her Islamist ignorance. The fact that she was up against a Jew makes the disgrace of her performance even more obscene than it otherwise would be. It is disgusting that ANYONE would make any sort of excuse for it at all.
Oh that's the point exactly, now in the 80s there was said barre who was a Soviet trained despot who did briefly ally with the us, when he fell well knows what happened from 92 on.
hombre thinks that since the 1979 Iranian hostage crisis through 2 wars in Iraq and 17-years in Afghanistan means Muslims are blameless for atrocities. How would you feelz think if Central America and Mexico responded to us like we did to the Middle East? You people shit yourself over a few thousand refugees.
I think someone should talk to Omar about civil/human rights violations by MUSLIMS!! Somalia, Yemen, All over Africa, Iran, etc. Does Omar tolerate gays? if not, is she a human rights violator?
@Bay Area Guy:
That's not what Omar was doing. Likely, she supports Chavez/Maduro, even if it ends in the destruction of Venezuela. So, fuck her. She's a dangerous nitwit, a tool for the jihadists.
I have no idea what her opinion on Chavez/Maduro is, and frankly I don't really care. Let me make my point by way of an example. The administration has written a blank check to Saudi Arabia. This an absolute monarchy that massively oppresses its people, who essentially posses no human rights. They have supported Sunni jihadists in Iraq and Syria and have been empowering and transferring American weapons to Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula while attempting to bomb Yemen's civilian population and starve them to death.
Given this, do you think our so called concern for human rights in Venezuela comes off a little bit disingenuous?
When you try and cover up the pussy with macho posturing and jingleistic cliches, it actually makes it easier to smell your hot tuna.
Hey hombre: it has everything to do with it. she is a bigot, biased to the point of wanting to kill Jews, abolish Israel, push gays off roof tops, mutilate little girls. I don't want such a person lecturing on morality. She has none.
@Jon Burack:
Abrams was absolutely right to oppose the Communists in Central America in the 1980s, and I can assure you the vast majority in Nicaragua and El Salvador today would agree.
Do you know who the president of Nicaragua is?
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