February 26, 2019

When Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez asked "Is it OK to still have children?," what did she mean and was she saying something new?

I'm watching this little video snippet:
"There’s a scientific consensus that the lives of children are going to be very difficult, and it does lead, I think, young people, to have a legitimate question: Is it OK to still have children?" Ocasio-Cortez said. "Not just financially because people are graduating with 20, 30, $100,000 worth of student loan debt, and so they can’t even afford to have kids and a house, but also just this basic moral question, like, ‘what do we do?’" she continued. "And even if you don’t have kids, there are still children here in the world and we have a moral obligation to leave a better world for them."
I'm seeing reactions around the web — mockery, contempt, even some stupid exultation (the kind that says: Ha ha great so the lefties won't have children!). But my questions are:

What did she mean? 

There are 2 completely different ideas. One is that the world is going to be so bad that a good person would not choose to cause a new individual to suffer the predicament of having to live in it, that it might be so bad that you should visualize your future child yelling I wish I had never been born and really meaning it. The other idea is that human beings are the cause of climate change, so it's wrong to add to the mass of humanity that is wrecking the world.

I don't think she's clear. She's just throwing her thoughts out there, disorganized, and maybe it's up to the listener to complete the logic. But which way are we supposed to complete AOC's thoughts? She talks about morality but — unless there's more to this video — she doesn't face the difficulty of thinking about whether what she means is that it's bad that there are so many people on this earth or whether life isn't worth living.

There's also a third idea mixed in there, and it's not a moral choice for the would-be parent. It's just personal economics. It's expensive to have children, and a lot of young people, including perhaps herself, realize that the most effective way to economize is not to have children. That could be seen as a moral choice for the country as a whole: It's morally wrong to maintain a system that tends to make young people feel that they can't afford to have children, that it's a big economic sacrifice. It's morally wrong not to welcome and support those who are willing to do the hard work of bearing and rearing children.

Was she saying something new? 

Some people are acting as though AOC blurted out some weird new notion, but in fact it's an idea I have heard my whole life. In my head, it plays as a Bob Dylan lyric:
You’ve thrown the worst fear
That can ever be hurled
Fear to bring children
Into the world
For threatening my baby
Unborn and unnamed
You ain’t worth the blood
That runs in your veins
That's from the early 60s. Dylan isn't inventing the idea. He's citing it as if we're all familiar with it. The great fear at the time was nuclear war, and I remember growing up with that fear and being taught it at school to the point where it caused me, a child, to fear the sound of ordinary planes flying overhead because they could be the bomber and this could be the last minute of life. As a college student, I remember expressing the idea myself. Asked about whether I pictured myself having children some day, I came out with what I knew was a cliché: Maybe it's not right to bring children into this world.

ADDED: There's a fantastic version of Dylan's song — "Masters of War" — by The Staples Singers (in 1964), and it should be familiar to many younger people these days because it was used in this Sony video game commercial in 2010:

265 comments:

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Dust Bunny Queen said...

So you don’t blame Obama for Obama Care?

I blame him for signing it into law. I blame Congress for writing it.

narciso said...

easier said than done, jaydub,


https://babalublog.com/2019/02/25/armas-para-que-guns-for-what-to-fight-the-government-fidel-castro-ridiculing-private-gun-ownership-and-deplorable-gun-owners-upon-his-very-first-speech-after-entering-havana/

walter said...

Blogger Inga...Allie Oop said...
So you don’t blame Obama for Obama Care?
--
I blame him for repeatedly lying about it.
But it would be more properly named Pelo-Reid Care.

James K said...

So what does she mean about not having children?

Ted Baxter had the right idea about having children: "I'm going to have lots of kids so that maybe one day one of them will figure out how to solve the overpopulation problem."

He was unintentionally correct: More people, more great ideas (more bad ones too, but hopefully those don't survive natural selection).

Rick said...

Why are you analyzing the middle school mall-chick tripe that comes out of this dingbat's mouth as if it merits any serious consideration?

Every day a new cohort of students will be misled by academia. Every day a few of them will recognize the propaganda and seek out better information.

Every time people accept new responsibilities they will recognize the left's demand it be placated before people can meet their own responsibilities is unreasonable and will seek out a better framework of governance.

We're here for them.

FullMoon said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
FullMoon said...

I remember growing up with that fear and being taught it at school to the point where it caused me, a child, to fear the sound of ordinary planes flying overhead because they could be the bomber and this could be the last minute of life.

Is it even possible young kids today have the same fear of climate change? That their lives could actually end because of it? Do they lie awake at night worrying? How about those kids who approached Feinstien Do they worry 24/7?

Maybe not, because CC disaster always seems to be decades away at a minimum. Not the twelve years AOC is quoted as saying, which btw, I think she may not have meant literally.

FullMoon said...


Yeah like his fix for health care and the Mexicans paying for the wall, lol.

Six years left to get it done.
It ain't over 'til it's over.

And, as far as health care, people with minimal incomes no longer forced to pay for insurance if they don't want to. Living paycheck to paycheck it helped them.

PM said...

The current Dem Party reminds me of the internal fight going at SETI. Some of its scientists want to contact aliens; an opposition group believes alien contact will help aliens destroy earth.

Danno said...

GregP said..."I also think the world would be a better place if AOC, and everyone who agrees with her, decided "it would be better if I was never born", and rectified the problem immediately."

That sure makes a good case for an abortion look-back rule.

Known Unknown said...

Who knew fearmongering was a-okay? I always heard it was a bad thing to do.

Browndog said...

Not the twelve years AOC is quoted as saying, which btw, I think she may not have meant literally.

I assume she was citing this report:

The World Was Just Issued 12-Year Ultimatum On Climate Change

Today, the United Nations’ Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change released a report on the forthcoming impacts of climate change.

October 8, 2018

Known Unknown said...

"I blame Congress for writing it."

Since Blogger doesn't accept fucking strikethrough HTML I have to do this:


"I blame Insurance Companies for writing it."

FIFY?

madAsHell said...

I don't quite know what a handbasket is, but the Democratic Party is heading in one to electoral hell with its talk of socialism and reparations.

Mr. Peabody, is that a fractured metaphor??

Henry said...

@buwaya -- I grew up in a family of 7 and now have three kids so I think I can speak to the question.

There's no question that nature can swamp the best nurture can provide.

But there's also no question that that parents will invest into nurture up to the point they run out of money. Just take something super simple. My youngest son plays drums. When he started, my wife found him a free kit hand-me-down. I've since been replacing pieces one-by-one as the free kit breaks. An adequate floor pedal is $100. An adequate ride cymbal is $100. Lessons are $130 month. The money adds up. Fewer kids means more investment per kid.

Furthermore, the investment into fewer kids happens even when parents don't limit their children. Studies of birth order are often confounded by the fact that in many cases the oldest child gets a lot more investment than the younger. In many cultures, modern and historical, sons are the beneficiaries of the family's economic nurturing.

walter said...

Henry,
There are plenty of folks wanting to unload more than adequate used drum bits/complete sets at "get rid of this" pricing.
Craigslist/ebay is your friend.

hstad said...

AOC, aka, "Occasional Cortex" - a gift which keeps on giving!

walter said...

(to tie into thread theme, said drum clearances often precipitated by incoming child)

buwaya said...

Henry, both sons played guitar, one better than the other. They have lots of guitars.
They could easily have done with many fewer. Really, there is no reason not to "deprive" them of such things. Where there is a will there is a way, and doing without is a great incentive to enterprise and invention. Information, books, etc. is free.

The current thinking is that they are almost entirely born that way, however they are, and some at least of the part of "nurture" is inherent in their parents own genetics.

Daughter played/plays - everything. Piano, violin, viola, ukulele, guitar, harmonica, mandolin, concertina - if you handed her a Bass or a Tuba she would have played those as well.

We certainly didn't buy her most of those. She had at one time three violins when she could have done with one, and two violas likewise.

Birkel said...

Henry worries his children might not be able to play instruments that were invented when people had much larger families than they do now, if he had more children.

Paradox, do you speak it?

pchuck1966 said...

Oh bullshit. She is saying, according to me ("I'm the boss") you shouldn't have children because they are expensive and the world doesn't need them. And because I am the boss and a socialist, I am going to steer policy via legislation where it makes it difficult or impossible for you to have children.

bagoh20 said...

"So you don’t blame Obama for Obama Care?"

I wonder if he read it, or did he have to sign it to see what was in it. Remember when he promised to wait five days before signing any legislation to allow people to read it and comment first? He didn't keep that promise on the first bill he signed or any other.

I'll tell you who did read the Obamacare bill: the insurance companies who wrote it. That piece of crap law has ruined the great healthcare I once was able to provide for my employees for decades. The majority now opt out of insurance all together becuase the cost has skyrocketed since Obamacare. Good work there Democrats. Always looking out for the little guy.

bagoh20 said...

AOC was attractive the first time I saw her, but she has quickly become very ugly. Kind of like seeing a mountain lion from a distance compared to up real close where they can get to your neck.

Chuck said...

I wish there was some easy way to get all of the most devoted Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez supporters and all of the most devoted Donald Trump supporters to fight each other to the death with the most effective weapons imaginable divided between both sides.

Unknown said...

Is a sales job, has nothing to do with "inner thoughts"

Unknown said...

> sales job

https://www.sunrisemovement.org/

Sunrise movement ambushed DiFi to set up the "concerned kids" video

walter said...

Chuck said...
I wish there was some easy way to get all of the most devoted Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez supporters and all of the most devoted Donald Trump supporters to fight each other to the death with the most effective weapons imaginable divided between both sides.
2/26/19, 1:11 PM
--
Good thinking there, Chuck.

Darrell said...

Lawyer Chuck calls for deadly violence and the Michigan Bar does nothing.

Birkel said...

Gosh, with only LLR TruCons and non-AOC Leftists around after Chuck's imagined fight, Democratics would have clear control of the country.
(Given that Trump is supported by ~90% of Republicans and all conservatives...)

Why does every Chuck, disinvited racist fopdoodle, scenario end with Democrats in control?

bagoh20 said...

AOC was born too late. Humankind needed this advice about 10,000 years ago. Those were really bad times.

bagoh20 said...

"AOC's thought processes"

I think that's what they call an Occsy moron.

Pianoman said...

Kevin said: "This generation of Dems is forever trying to get back to 1968."

Reminds me of these lyrics:

We are stardust.
Billion year old carbon.
We are golden..
Caught in the devil's bargain
And we've got to get ourselves back to the garden.


This was from back in the 60's, when hippies still believed in such silly things as God.

Gretchen said...

Little Miss Privilege. Only people who go to college have college debt, only about 30% of Americans have a college degree. Only people who go to elite colleges have 100K in debt, no need to have much debt at all at a state school. Also only middle class and wealthy pay full price for college.

I'm sure AOC thinks if you do have a baby it is best to murder it right in the delivery room.

Rusty said...

ga...Allie Oop said...
“The fear-mongering in the first premise is designed to lead the hearer...”

"Trump used fear mongering from day one. He made his followers irrationally afraid of illegal immigrants. "

At least you now admit they're here illegally. That's progress.
As far as fear goes? Meh. I work in a company where I am the minority. We all seem to get along. But judging from your post you live in fear of Donald Trump.
Maybe for people like you that's a good thing.

Bad Lieutenant said...

walter said...
Chuck said...
I wish there was some easy way to get all of the most devoted Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez supporters and all of the most devoted Donald Trump supporters to fight each other to the death with the most effective weapons imaginable divided between both sides.
2/26/19, 1:11 PM
--
Good thinking there, Chuck.

2/26/19, 1:22 PM


You don't ask for much do ya? Hell, Chuck, I'd settle for killing you.

Rick said...

"Trump used fear mongering from day one.

Democrats / the left has used fearmongering my entire life. Revealingly none of the people complaining about Trump has ever criticized them for doing so.

gahrie said...

Not the twelve years AOC is quoted as saying, which btw, I think she may not have meant literally.

Then why 12 years instead of 10 or 20?

Henry said...

@walter -- For useful free stuff, it needs to be available, usable, and applicable. The more specific the thing you need, the less likely you hit all three.

Free instruments and free-range music learning aside, my point is descriptive, not prescriptive. Middle and upper class parents now, as compared to the past, have fewer children and invest more money in them. Just look at the difference in housing prices between towns with good public schools and bad public schools. The only upper class parents who live in towns with bad public schools send their kids to private schools. Home schooling? Home schooling is a huge economic cost for whomever does the schooling.

The great blues musician Sonny Terry taught himself to play harmonica by borrowing his dad's harmonica. He taught himself to play upside down. Take that, me.

Henry said...

People will give you an upright piano for nothing, if you just take it away for them. Upright pianos are the used mattresses of the instrument world. At least they used to. But those days may be over. I'm not sure if anyone buys new upright pianos.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Chuck I wish there was some easy way to get all of the most devoted Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez supporters and all of the most devoted Donald Trump supporters to fight each other to the death with the most effective weapons imaginable divided between both sides.

How about we just fight equipped with the weapons we already own. No fair going out and buying new stuff. Just the weapons we have. The ones at our disposal right this very moment that we own.

Ready.....set....go!

mockturtle said...

How about we just fight equipped with the weapons we already own. No fair going out and buying new stuff. Just the weapons we have. The ones at our disposal right this very moment that we own.

Ready.....set....go!


Great response, DBQ! :-) BTW, count me in!

Jim at said...

Can we please ignore this unserious person so that she is not empowered to ruin our country?

I'd normally agree with you, but she speaks for a large portion of today's left. And her idiocy needs to be trumpeted far and wide.

This is today's left. It's who they are. Sane people need to recognize it and reject it.

mockturtle said...

Jim observes: I'd normally agree with you, but she speaks for a large portion of today's left. And her idiocy needs to be trumpeted far and wide.

The squeaky wheel gets the grease and she's about as squeaky as they come. Plus her youth and her looks are bound to get media attention. But Jim is right. She will continue to dig [to employ another metaphor] her own grave. But if there is an ultimate showdown between Socialism and Capitalism, let's have it out or divide the country geographically. It'll be interesting to see which side survives the longest.

Birkel said...

Henry types his words onto a computer.
The computer was developed by people from larger families, on average, than those of today.
Henry is fluent in paradox.

Henry equates money spent with investment.
Just like elected Democrats.
No paradox there.

Misallocation of resources.
Henry is trilingual.

Jim at said...

Exactly what I think when I hear Trump speak. - Inga

Except you don't think when you hear Trump speak. You go off the rails spewing incoherent nonsense. You scream at the sky.

If/when he wins re-election, I expect you'll be institutionalized. And the circle will be complete.

eddie willers said...

On the crazy/hot graph, she's well within the "no go zone"!

Her Spanish name is "Tiffany".

Known Unknown said...

Gotta give Ms. Ed (I know, that's mean, she's not quite John Elway) some serious credit for being the closest to a left-wing Trump there is. She's living rent-free in a lot of people's heads these days.

Birkel said...

eddie willers comes to the thread late and posts a gem of a comment!
Well played, sir!

Fritz said...

Modern humans emerged out of Africa some 100,000 or so years ago, at the height of the last last ice age. The thought that a couple of degrees of global warming will be too hard for humans to bear is simply laughable. And we should laugh.

Known Unknown said...

"People will give you an upright piano for nothing, if you just take it away for them. Upright pianos are the used mattresses of the instrument world. At least they used to. But those days may be over. I'm not sure if anyone buys new upright pianos."

Upright Piano Brigade.


(Note: this is the original version of this song, but there is a better version I have that I cannot find on YouTube at all.)

mockturtle said...

Modern humans emerged out of Africa some 100,000 or so years ago, at the height of the last last ice age. The thought that a couple of degrees of global warming will be too hard for humans to bear is simply laughable. And we should laugh.

Right. What about adaptation?

mockturtle said...

Oh, wait! The snowflakes might melt!

wwww said...

Next lesson, I'll be curious to ask the Suzuki teacher about her piano & where she got it. I would like a good quality xylophone, but would prefer not to buy one.

Anyways, parents can and will spend a whole lot on your kids today. You can set them up with the 529s.

Birkel said...

What did all those parents who raised our grandparents do?
According to the experts above, they must have spent a lot and really catered to their kids.
How else to explain all the successes of The Greatest Generation?

History is hard.
It's harder if you're stupid.

Maillard Reactionary said...

Separately, I have to say that even despite the stiff competition, "Masters of War" is in my opinion one of Dylan's top 10 worst songs. I'll grant, he did write many that are memorable and fine in their way, but that is not one of them.

Admittedly, I've only listened to a tiny fraction of his total output, viz., those that got nonzero playtime on the radio, and some of the albums they came from. More knowledgeable readers may disagree, and so be it.

Still, just the thought of it makes me shudder. (I have a good memory for music, not always to my advantage.)

It is a pity that recording artists are unable to destroy their juvenalia.

How many composers have never written a single thing as good as what Brahms threw into his fireplace?

Rick said...

Oh, wait! The snowflakes might melt!

This would ensure global warming would be a net benefit.

Rory said...

mockturtle said: "...or divide the country geographically."

Yeah, they can't allow that. You'd be left with one country and a group of city-states scattered here and there. Plus, you know, they'll need to build the usual walls to keep their people in. They need to take it all in one piece.

Unknown said...

> What does she mean

I sent in $5 and 10 ovaltine wrappers for an AOC decoder ring. It says:

"Commie Chicks Uses Climate Crisis to Support Abortion"

ken in tx said...

"Who in the heck does she think will pay for all her world-changing social programs if future generations are too self-centered to have children for the good of their fellow citizens?"

Pay for it? You're not paying attention. She said it's all going to be FREE!

Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves said...

Dumb shit liberal hivemind response to Obamacare:

"But we had to do something."

Yeah - your team made it all worse. Thanks!

mockturtle said...

You'd be left with one country and a group of city-states scattered here and there.

Siege.

mockturtle said...

Phidippus asserts: How many composers have never written a single thing as good as what Brahms threw into his fireplace?

Or Mozart. Or Bach.

Elliott A said...

My worry for the future is that more than 3 people (her family) actually voted for her. She know nothing about any of the subjects she discusses, has no original thoughts, and has already anointed herself as "boss". It is beyond comprehension

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Kirk Parker said...

Henry,

We had an immense amount of trouble giving away our upright grand! The guys who finally did take it were unprepared for how heavy it was, and I was desperately afraid they would give up trying to get it into their trailer...

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