Suddenly, suddenly.
The assertions of suddenness come from Michelle Goldberg, writing at the NYT in "Not the Fun Kind of Feminist/How Trump helped make Andrea Dworkin relevant again."
For the record, I read Andrea Dworkin when she was alive and kicking and her books were relevant the first time around. I read "Intercourse," "Pornography: Men Possessing Women," "Right Wing Women," "Woman Hating," and even "Mercy: A Novel."
So I don't need "Last Days at Hot Slit: The Radical Feminism of Andrea Dworkin," the new collection of Dworkin writings that seems to prompt Goldberg.
Now, why exactly was Dworkin "so profoundly out of fashion"? I think the answer is that women want to be sex-positive. They didn't want to have to give up sex to be feminists. Dworkin's analysis was very unsettling and provocative, and it was always easier to leave her book shut and not have to deal with the arguments she raised. I'm not impressed by the women who go into these books now because they seem to synchronize with hating Trump. To impress me, you have to put feminism first, and that means you should have cared about this stuff when Bill Clinton ruled the roost.
Goldberg quotes one of the editors of the newly published collection of Dworkin writings:
“Me and my peers, we believed in this sort of fairy tale, that there was a line of demarcation that was very clear between rape and nonconsensual acts, and consent,” said Fateman. “We knew where the line was, and everything on the side of consent was great, and it was an expression of our freedom. But that’s not the experience of sex that a lot of people are having.”Is that even true? You and your friends all believed there was a clear line and everything on one side was great and on the other side was rape? So all that "great sex" you were having, you never had any qualms about how bad it might actually be? In the interest of giving you credit for having something of an intellect, I've got to say I don't believe you.
From my 2005 post, "Andrea Dworkin has died":
Feminism was only a means to an end for a lot of people who positioned themselves as the voices of feminism. Their abjectly partisan goals came to light when they supported Clinton and (especially) smeared Paula Jones and Monica Lewinsky. It was an appalling spectacle. I care a lot about feminism, but I have not trusted the self-appointed voices of feminism since then. Dworkin, for all her overstatements and wackiness, was truly devoted to feminism as an end. She didn't care enough about free speech and she was over-the-top in her aversion to heterosexual sex, but I mean to honor her with this post.Criticized for that post, I responded in "Have I been too kind to the late Andrea Dworkin?"
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125 comments:
I like how you used that cliche “ruled the roost” but made it seem kind of fresh because of the image it brought.
nonconsensual
I'm confused.
Does it derive from consent or consensus?
Is there conflating going on?!
I would have noted this article but not have read it. I read Dworkin back in the day and thought she was unhappy to the point of mental illness. And a useless academic, of course.
And after two years of Orange Man Bad, Ms. Goldberg is just running out of things to say. Live life, put some distance between yourself and these deranged people. Sad!
It turns out that consent really is a grey area. For instance, you can LET someone grab you by the pussy, but decades later, if you decide you don’t like the man, well, presto change-o, now it’s sexual assault! Only Dworkin could thread that needle!
It’s like the old joke about the brilliant tailor. It turns out that you start out as a normal man, but you have to walk like a cripple to wear the suits he makes. “Only Dworkin the tailor could have made such a suit for a cripple like you!"
Sex turns out to be nice. I wouldn't characterize it as great or bad. Maybe that's where feminism goes wrong.
I assume oeuvre means pussy. No time to look it up.
A guess from context.
"But that’s not the experience of sex that a lot of people are having.”
or:
But that’s not the experience of sex that a lot of women are choosing to have.
Maybe look at the expiration date before choosing to drink the milk.
I am Laslo.
Feminism is an ideology of hate. One thing I’ve noticed about feminists is that they never blame themselves or take responsibility for any of their misery - they always blame everyone else. The other is that most of the men that take up the cause end up being outed as sexual predators.
Perhaps Dworkin could've used a "pup play" mentor.
I am Laslo.
"It seems like something sprung from Dworkin’s cataclysmic imagination, that America’s most overtly fascistic president would also be the first, as far as we know, to have appeared in soft-core porn films."
Woodrow Wilson appeared in soft-core porn films? He doesn't strike me as the type . . .
Ann: You've always done a great job on these issues, free from cliches.
The notion that U.S. women ever had a Marxist class complaint against men, which is Althouse's (and Dworkin's) thesis here, is bullshit.
American women are, and have been throughout my life the richest, safest, most powerful people in the history of humanity.
I've read Dworkin's work. She was a psychotic, bizarrely perverted, mobidly obese and disgusting pig.
The fucked up nature of her sex life was of her own making.
"I think Trump’s victory marked a shift in feminism’s relationship to sexual liberation; as long as he’s in power, it’s hard to associate libertinism with progress."
The President ruins the sex lives of progressive American women.
That IS fascist.
Or women are simply embarrassing themselves intellectually in public, which is probably then just neurotic masochism.
Maybe women just need a new novel to explore their sexuality: "Fifty Shades of Orange."
The Safe Word is 'Handmaiden'.
I am Laslo.
I am assuming there is a porn version of "The Handmaid's Tale" out there for men who like that kind of thing.
The porn version for women is the TV series "The Handmaid's Tale".
I am Laslo.
"Dworkin, for all her overstatements and wackiness, was truly devoted to feminism as an end."
What does that even mean? She was devoted to creating a world in which heterosexual sex would be contrary to law. Is that what "feminism" means? Thanks for womansplaining that to me. Seriously. It would never have occurred to me. Must be a hormonal thing.
One of the weirdest quirks of bourgeois Marxist feminists women like Althouse is her professed sympathy for sex weirdoes and perverts that I know she would not allow anywhere near her own life.
Look at Meade. He's a wet behind the ears Midwestern nice altar boy. This is what Althouse really wants.
She lived in NYC for a number of years where she acquired this affectation of pretending personal acceptance of weird sexual deviance. It's a status play.
Shouting Thomas said...
"The fucked up nature of her sex life was of her own making."
Well, to be fair, she was a fat. Our society is not kind to fats.
"It turns out that consent really is a grey area. For instance, you can LET someone grab you by the pussy, but decades later, if you decide you don’t like the man, well, presto change-o, now it’s sexual assault! Only Dworkin could thread that needle!"
Not everything is about law.
Most of the bad things people do are not crimes.
There is a lot of sex that isn't a crime but that you ought to avoid. The idea that everything that's not rape is "great sex" is so stupid, but it's also stupid, more subtly, to retreat into law when you're talking about how to live a good life, how to be mentally healthy, how to find and develop good relationships, and how to have rewarding sexual experiences. The law isn't for that.
Not the Fun Kind of Feminist/How Trump helped make Andrea Dworkin relevant again."
What exactly is a "fun kind of feminist"? I'd love to hear some names. Every feminist I know of is a seriously unfun, unhappy, miserable person who sucks the fun out of everyone around them. And then they wonder why some young women reject feminism.
"Ann: You've always done a great job on these issues, free from cliches."
Thanks. You will have to count "ruled the roost" as not a cliché because it was used freshly to make tim in vermont think of Bill's cock.
"What exactly is a "fun kind of feminist"? I'd love to hear some names."
They self-promote as "sex-positive."
Use "sex-positive" in your Google search and you'll find them.
It's an intellectual guard-rail. Must be sex positive!
Well, then you won't think about everything. You've made a safe space, a very stupid one. And ironically, it's anti-feminist, accepting a role for yourself and afraid to look at the whole picture.
The conservative christian version in the works is called the Handjob's Tale.
Greggy Marmalard
They self-promote as "sex-positive."
We were all sex positive before the lunatic Marxist feminists decided to make sex a negative.
We could have just skipped the Marxist feminist lies.
"The conservative christian version in the works is called the Handjob's Tale. "
I wasn't sure if they would go with 'The Handjob's Tale', 'The Handmaid's Tail', or 'The Handmaid's Gangbang: Big Black Cocks Volume 7."
I am Laslo.
Thanks. You will have to count "ruled the roost" as not a cliché because it was used freshly to make tim in vermont think of Bill's cock
No, I thought of him strutting around the henhouse. Roosters don’t actually have cocks.
When are you going to admit, Althouse, that you were born with a silver spoon in your mouth and that you're one of the most fortunate people in human history in terms of your origins?
This bitching from a person born to wealth and position is disgraceful.
Hell, I was born in a shack in the middle of the cornfields and I didn't make my origins a political cause.
"Roosters don’t actually have cocks."
Yeah, but some women now do.
I am Laslo.
I’m imaging a progression here:
from “Sex and the City” to “Girls” to ??
Blogger Shouting Thomas said...
When are you going to admit, Althouse, that you were born with a silver spoon in your mouth and that you're one of the most fortunate people in human history in terms of your origins?
This bitching from a person born to wealth and position is disgraceful.
Hell, I was born in a shack in the middle of the cornfields and I didn't make my origins a political cause.
You are precisely making your humble origin a political cause. In fact, it has been the #1 source (followed by #2 your Dad was a badass war hero) for your cowardly avoidance of military service, your pathetic man-whore braggadocio and your fear and resentment of women who see right through you.
Not to mention that I have grabbed a pussy or two in healthy fun relationships that I don’t think the women regretted later. I don’t think I ever led with that move, but then again, I have never been a “star.” But was that what all of the pussy hats and all of the sturm und drang (I had to dig into the cliche deep freeze for that one) was all about? That it was lousy sex? In a way, that figures.
I didn't avoid military service, Howard. I refused it.
I was one of the leaders of the Vietnam anti-war movement in the Midwest, a role that I take pride in. I wrote a series of articles that pretty much predicted how the U.S. involvement in Vietnam would play out in 1966 when I was 16. It was published in my little hometown newspaper.
My father wasn't a bad ass. He was a 2nd Louie in artillery who was profoundly changed by war, which he hated. He was among the liberators of Dachau.
Dworkin was unapologetically angry, as so many women today are.
Aww, the poor little dears...are they eating right and getting enough exercise?
“Me and my peers, we believed
Ogg believe much things.
I did find Dworkin wacky. She also had no style sense, which with all their phoniness and preachiness, many other top feminists now always make sure they do have. I mean Linda Sarsour knows how to put it together even as she tucks herself under her virtue signaling scarf. AOC flashes her lipstick and smile to hide her obvious deficiencies. The stylish Jane Fonda actually did take offense when the stylish Megan Kelly had the nerve to ask her about her face lifts. I mean they were what she lived for, weren't they? So are they actually sex positive, or just want us to see them that way? So, yes, I have to say I give Dworkin credit for taking her feminism seriously. Sort of like the prolife feminist suffragettes who must have been rolling over in their graves at the stylish ladies in the audience at the SOTU early this month.
And, no, I haven't made a political cause out of my humble origins.
I put it all aside and made a success out of my life. My entire extended family did the same.
If you were trying to play the complete idiot, Howard, you couldn't be doing a better job.
I'm a musician and artist. My great artistic hero is Henry Miller, who found a way to sit out both world wars in favor of living the good life with wine, women and song.
Fuck dying in war. You do it, moron.
maddening male behaviors that had once gone unnamed — manspreading, mansplaining.
How about manhooding, as a kind of umbrella term for the maddening men? Hooding sounds sinister even without the man attached to it.
"Well, to be fair, she was a fat. Our society is not kind to fats."
Schlump isn't kind to overweight women, nor are you, so you both can stuff it, i.e., your mouths with chocolate cake. That's ironic considering Schlump's "a fat" as you'd describe him. I blame eating disorders on nasty people like you, and your bosom buddy in arms, Schlump.
I really think that the reaction to that observation by Trump is to “when you’re a star.” There are so many women who really dislike having the fact of female hypergamy even so much as mentioned, it triggers them because it’s true.
I assume oeuvre means pussy. No time to look it up.
It's French for "egg", probably one of those vibrating pussy-eggs.
Wasnt he describing practices at the democratic convention, NBC and CBS offices.
The arc of Feminism so far:
From Gloria Steinem, an ex-Playboy Bunny who wanted equal rights, to Andrea Dworkin, a morbidly obese lesbian who believed heterosexual sex was rape, to Rachel McKinnon, a man who identifies as a woman, beats biological women in women's sporting matches, and mansplains to Martina Navratilova about feminism.
As Johnny Rotten once asked: "Ever get the feeling you've been cheated?"
From a male perspective, it is interesting to note how the arc of craziness bends upward in direct relation to the downward freefall of fuckability.
I am Laslo.
America’s most overtly fascistic president
Right, the first president of the modern era to actually roll back the power of the executive is America's most overtly fascistic president. Not the one who threatened to pack the court if they didn't rule how he wanted them to and later rounded up American citizens and put them in camps because of their ethnic background. Not the one who threatened to send the Army to the Maryland statehouse if they didn't vote the way he wanted them to and actually arrested a publisher when he didn't like the op-ed. No, it's the guy who gets the government off your back. He's the fascistic one.
Tells you all you need to know about the quality of the thinking from these people.
Wasn't Dworkin's first, most influential book entitled Les Beaux?
None dare call it seminal.
Trumpit said...
"Well, to be fair, she was a fat. Our society is not kind to fats."
Schlump isn't kind to overweight women, nor are you, so you both can stuff it, i.e., your mouths with chocolate cake. That's ironic considering Schlump's "a fat" as you'd describe him.
Two problems (well, 3 if you include that you are a jerk for no apparent reason).
1. Trump was not fat when he was young. He was legitimately handsome for much of his life. Now he's old and it doesn't matter.
2. You are falsely comparing handsome man with beautiful woman. The male analog to beautiful woman is rich man. Which Trump is.
My pleasure Thomas, you lead the pampered life of Jody knowing real men are protecting you in your crib. Your points about how spoiled American women are is just an unconscious confession of your own weakness.
I really mean it, Howard.
You can have all the horrifying feminist bitches. They're all yours.
You can be the hero braving the machine gun fire and dying on the beach.
It's all yours, asshole.
You've got the word "cuck" backwards in its political sense. This term was initially used by what are called the "Pickup Artist" sites, the most influential being Heartiste.
The word cuck is used to describe an idiot who falls for the feminist bullshit and sacrifices himself accordingly. In other words, the cuck is you, the white knight.
You're so stupid you've got it backwards. You're welcome to your heroic White Knight role. Fuck it. I won't play.
So, instead of dying in Vietnam or coming home as a drunk and/or drug addict tormented by witnessing atrocities, I had a hell of a good time in Chicago and San Francisco.
Fuck you, you dumb ass White Knight.
I'd to the same thing again in another life. That's because I'm a hell of a lot smarter than you.
The real reason women hate mansplaining: When a situation comes up that requires some kind of knowledge of some mildly complicated mechanical system, a man wastes everybody’s time by explaining how it works to the woman hoping that the next tme she encounters the system and needs to use it, she will be able to do it herself without having to ask a man. Of course EVERYBODY KNOWS that all she hears is “blah blah blah” secure in the knowledge that if the situation comes up again, she will just ask the nearest man.
Plus, she secretly likes this show of competence so of course any display that women like can then be called “preening.”
I can only imagine what Dworkin would make of the current Trans movement. I suspect she'd be the TERFiest TERF that ever TERFed.
"Dworkin's analysis was very unsettling and provocative"
Well, that's one way of putting it. "Batshit crazy" is how I'd describe it.
I missed an opportunity to use my favorite line from Moonstruck: “You have such a head for knowing!"
Self confessed dilettante and dandy expresses his true disdain and hatred for military veterans... just like his hero DJT. Purple Heart for crabs.
I'll admit that Dworkin was generally positive about transgendered people during her time alive. But the current trans environment is very different from what it was at the time of her death.
The difference between men and women is always humorous. Dworkin was a Lesbian. And go look at her picture. Did she ever have sex?
So why would any normal women care what she had to say? Imagine a ugly little Gay guy giving men advise on the how to treat women and talking about hetrosexuality. Every straight guy would would just laugh!
Back to the future....my very first comment on this blog in 2005 was on the post obersving Andrea Dworkin's death. It is difficult to say whether sDworkin has suddenly become "fashionable", but her views on relationships were not without effect. They certainly entered into Prof. Catharine MacKinnon's work to create the law of hostile environment sex discrimination. My comment then, as now, is Dworkin's views were hateful and motivated by the same lust for revenge as should be evident in calls to do away with due process for men accused of any form of misconduct related to sex.
Thomas' mantra for his hero's journey is Girls Just Wanna Have Fun!
@Howard
Cuck that you are, you've really fallen for the whole pile of shit.
Yeah, I got a lot of pussy, just like DJT.
While you, dumb shit cuck, were out there playing the White Knight.
You got fooled.
That's got to really get under your skin, huh cuck?
Yeah, I partied hearty. Every kind of women... black, Jewish, Filipino, Russian... you name it. Sometimes two or three at once.
While you were the big hero, I was having fun and getting laid.
Eat your heart out, dumb cuck.
"2. You are falsely comparing handsome man with beautiful woman. The male analog to beautiful woman is rich man. Which Trump is."
I'm not as brilliant as Andrea Dworkin was, but I know a male chauvinist pig (MCP) when I see one, and you're a big one. A lot of very shitty people are rich, and it proves nothing about them except that they are rich, and rotten.
The retrograde rednecks who erected Schlump didn't care that he objectified, and demeaned women. Their hatred for Hillary as a successful woman was intense. Contempt for educated working women is part of redneck culture along with shooting Bambi. Schlump is a classic MCP. It should have been a disqualifying trait for president.
http://www.newlovetimes.com/10-dreadful-clues-your-man-is-a-male-chauvinist-pig/
A lot of very shitty people are rich
And they very often have beautiful girlfriends.
The real reason women hate mansplaining: When a situation comes up that requires some kind of knowledge of some mildly complicated mechanical system, a man wastes everybody’s time by explaining how it works to the woman hoping that the next tme she encounters the system and needs to use it, she will be able to do it herself without having to ask a man. Of course EVERYBODY KNOWS that all she hears is “blah blah blah” secure in the knowledge that if the situation comes up again, she will just ask the nearest man.
The real reason women hate "mansplaining" (and by that, I mean explanations that aren't made in good faith, but rather, aimed at putting the other person down) is that it's obnoxious. It isn't "mansplaining" any time a man explains something to a woman, though a lot of twits use the term that way.
I manage an all female tech team at a software firm. The firm is mostly male, and the men in the firm treat my team with respect and professionalism. There are a few who clearly assume women can't hack it, but once you demonstrate that you can pull your weight (and more), that stops immediately. No one should object to being asked to be good at their job, or to prove it before earning respect.
Our senior developer - the one who does all the complex algorithm design - is a woman. The company literally would not exist, except that she took a huge risk and quit her job to nudge our founder to go into business for himself.
We have one male developer - who is very liberal, by the way - who on the surface treats us well, but there's always a tinge of condescension in his manner. He is famous for "explaining" - often at ridiculous length - to other people, things the other people actually know more about than he does :p
It would be tempting to call this "mansplaining", but he does it to everyone (male and female). But he absolutely does it more to women. And his intent isn't to put anyone else down, so far as I can tell. He just thinks he's smarter than everyone else and likes to show off. I see that far more often than actual "mansplaining" (intentional jerkish behavior). Men enjoy demonstrating their competence and being recognized for it.
It's not the end of the world - just another quirk you deal with in life.
Camille Paglia penned the definitive essay on Dworkin back in the '90's. Camille got very mean. I remember Paglia wrote that she had observed Dworkin types many times in the classroom. The fat girl, awash in whiny victimhood, who seems to have a permanent cold and comes to class with a roll of toilet paper and honks and coughs all though the lecture. I thought that was very cruel of Paglia, but at the same time, I immediately thought of 2 women I knew as undergrads who were exactly like that. They were indeed miserably unhappy rad fems. One can feel sorry for such women, but accepting their worldview as a valid statement on the relationship of the sexes is another matter entirely.
They self-promote as "sex-positive."
That they must do so tells us everything we need to know about mainstream feminism.
"Even before 2016, you could see this anger building in the emergence of new words to describe maddening male behaviors that had once gone unnamed — manspreading, mansplaining. Then came the obscene insult of Donald Trump’s victory. It seems like something sprung from Dworkin’s cataclysmic imagination, that America’s most overtly fascistic president would...
Pure silliness. The likelihood is small that anything interesting can follow from attention to anything Goldberg has said, so I quit at "Suddenly, suddenly".
Goldberg is an idiot. Why you take her silliness with the minimal level of seriousness necessary to use her even as a segue into something (possibly) not completely silly, I do not understand.
So Dworkin wasn’t wrong about feminism, just prescient.
“Andrea Dworkin, a morbidly obese lesbian who believed heterosexual sex was rape”
Funny thing there is that deep down I sometimes feel that way, but then figure that if women are avid participants in it with me, that is their issue, not mine. I know that I wouldn’t want the body violation of someone sticking their male sex organ in me, but buggery by heterosexual guys is all about dominance, and very little about sex. That is the way that normal heterosexual brains think about it. But an article I read a decade or two ago looked at how male homosexual brains differ, and argued that in utero development masculinized most male brains at certain points in development, probably based on testosterone levels present. Not enough testosterone meant that those portions of their brains remained at least somewhat female. And argued that there were actually two parts to this - one was actual sexual orientation, and the other was sexual approach (active or receptive), and they differentiated at slightly different points in development. Essentially, you have a 2x2 matrix, between sexual orientation and sexual approach. The article was looking at just males, but I would expect that it would be accurate for females too, making it a 2x2x2 matrix. So, we probably shouldn’t be surprised that some, if not many, lesbians have sufficiently masculinized brains that they have a male’s normal sexual orientation and sexual approach. Or to be a bit cruder, just like some gay guys want to be fucked by other guys, some lesbians are appalled by even the idea of that, not being able to understand why any woman would want, or even tolerate, that. Luckily for my sex life, and for the survival of the species, most women don’t think that way.
I am always amazed at what an absolutely devastating effect the Trump presidency continues to have on the lives of people like Michelle Goldberg - 24/7. It seems they go to bed in tears every night and wake up every morning in fear (Oh God, it wasn't a nightmare; it's true!) all because of who the President is. I really don't get it.
Wow. That's the most successful troll ever. It yielded a full blown confession of a dishonest empty pleasure seeker. The funniest part is Thomas thinks people would admire and be jealous of his vacuous life.
Ugly Ideas, Ugly Woman.
Methinks that Michelle Goldberg had a conversation with her hubby where he said something against feminism and so her resurgent interest in Dworkin and making men suffer.
That or she was paid off to make a puff piece to help sell books to a rapidly dwindling population interested in Dworkin Dreck.
Yes, if you hate sex, the nuclear family, other people in general and men specifically, Dworkin is the gal for you.
It is also interesting to note that Michelle (Rack) Goldberg has gone well past her 'Best Used By' date and is no longer the Feminist Hottie that she once was.
It is amazing how, like clockwork, when a Feminist north of Five suddenly goes south of Five, she 'suddenly' rediscovers Dworkin.
My mother played a very interesting role in how I viewed life.
She lost her brother to a training exercise during the Korean War. Her father returned from WWI a broken drunk. And, this is just the beginning of the litany of the stupid toll war took on my extended family.
Mom was damned if she was going to lose a son to war. She was quite fierce about it.
Yes, Howard, pleasure seeking is the sensible way to view life. As I said, you're welcome to your life of cuck White Knight sacrifice.
Oh dear. I remember this fat idiot.
So, after graduation, this idiot moves to the Netherlands, joins violent anarchists, and is surprised that the leader whom she marries...is VIOLENT!
So she makes the 'logical' jump that this is all men. Her relationship was stupidly toxic and it certainly couldn't have been HER FAULT!
Yes Ms. Althouse. You are not critical enough of this woman.
Also note for those actually interested in FACTS: Rape has been dropping like a rock since the 70's and 'No Means No' was widely taught to boys. And yet violent porn is far more common than it ever was.
So her central premise of porn and violence was indisputably incorrect.
Since facts and correctness never bothered her before, it isn't strange at all that Michelle Goldberg is dumb enough to want to embrace her again (except that Michelle is a small girl and her arms wouldn't get all the way around Dworkin)
I’ve never read anything by Dworkin so this is purely second hand. But someone who had read some of Dworkin’s stuff called her “Freud’s penis envy made manifest.” Something along that line.
If women aren’t supposed to like sex then why do most (all?) wives sometimes initiate sex?
Goldberg is an idiot. Why you take her silliness with the minimal level of seriousness necessary to use her even as a segue into something (possibly) not completely silly, I do not understand.
Althouse used to have conversations with her on Bloggingheads, so she tends to offer Goldberg the benefit of the doubt due to personal connections far beyond Michelle's actual level of intellect and competence because 'she's a grrl'.
However, not having actually met The Rack, I can't say that I have a better idea of her character except what she shows me, which is shallow, ugly and not well thought out.
And, Howard, here's a tale that should amuse you.
Many of the vets in my hometown were scandalized and horrified over my opposition to the war, as was their right.
The problem for them was that I was a three sport (baseball, football and basketball) all conference star. I wasn't afraid of anybody.
My dad told me that my uncle, an Army Ranger who by the mid 60s had a huge beer belly, was going to come over and kick my ass good over my anti-war activities.
"Tell him to come on over and give it a try," I replied.
Uncle Jim never showed up.
Everyone can unite around chocolate cake..aside from the haters.
I bet Dworkin loved her some chocolate cake.
I knew nothing of Andrea Dworkins and now I know nothing more except her name and that she existed. I think I'll stop there.
Trumpit said...
"2. You are falsely comparing handsome man with beautiful woman. The male analog to beautiful woman is rich man. Which Trump is."
I'm not as brilliant as Andrea Dworkin was, but I know a male chauvinist pig (MCP) when I see one, and you're a big one. A lot of very shitty people are rich, and it proves nothing about them except that they are rich, and rotten.
I see, so you've attached a moral value to beauty. Beauty = goodness.
Andrea Dworkin isn't the only person you're not as brilliant as.
She wants to make norman interpersonal relations verboten,
RE: "Me and my peers, we believed ..."
That's an editor!?
It is clear that a lot of people who call themselves "feminists" can be idiots.
One problem I have with the feminist movement is the anti-natal attitudes. A second is the promotion of all granola, crunchy, natural stuff = good, which has encouraged anti-vaccination movements and encourages non-attended births, dangerous for baby and for mother.
On sex positivism. I agree with Althouse that post world war II, 20th century, there was a de-emphasis of sexual pitfalls and dangers. Blind sex-positivism ignores the problems of sex outside of marriage and committed relationships. There are women and men who spoke about it. But popular attitudes have a blind eye towards things like the women and girls who were ,and are, pressured into sex and abortion.
There are several reasons I'm a social conservative in the area of sex before marriage, or, at least, engagement. But one great advantage is that it reduces misunderstandings about sex and pregnancy. Likewise, it reduces abortion. It doesn't entirely solve the problems, but it goes a long way.
War and feminism really are two sides of the same coin.
The patriarchy committed suicide on the first day of the Battle of the Somme during WWI, when 20,000 young Irish and English men died for no fucking sensible reason or goal.
Women were justifiably fed up with that act.
Jesus, your Mom really did a number on your head. You fundamentally fear strong men and women. The stereotypical fate of the football star who peaked in highschool.
With apologies to Sally Fields:
They hate you. They really hate you.
Of course some guys think with their dick and will bang ANYTHING in skirt.
Some I'm sure someone tried to hit on Dworkin. Maybe Al Franken or Weinstein.
Cassandra: There are a few who clearly assume women can't hack it, but once you demonstrate that you can pull your weight (and more), that stops immediately.
Certainly my experience. Surprise, surprise, it turns out that "stereotypers" are more often than not rational actors who base their initial reactions on the limited information available to them at the time, who can rapidly and rationally readjust their assessment as more information becomes available to them - and do.
One of the most pernicious dogmas of PC-ism is that stereotypes are 1) irrational and false, 2) that initial on-the-fly probabilistic assessments (aka stereotypes) are permanent and impervious to re-evaluation re individuals, and 3) that we should, or can, "educate" people out of using stereotypes for any kind of social navigation.
How exactly does one know that an explanation is not given in good faith, I ask myself. If that's the criterion, I am thinking that mansplaining is as rare as organizations where the top algorithm writer, whatever the fuck that means, is a woman.
"Dworkin, for all her overstatements and wackiness, was truly devoted to feminism as an end."
This analysis shows the problem with feminism. Dworkin can only be celebrated in this way if feminism is understood as advocacy for women in all circumstances. Otherwise her claims need to be evaluated against accuracy and reasonableness where she clearly fails.
Yet feminists constantly deny that feminism is anything other than "the radical idea that women are people". Support for Dworkin conflicts with the belief feminism is about pushing for fairness.
Let’s go back in time to the late 1960s and early 1970s. It was a time when male professors could — and did — demand that coeds taking their classes wear short skirts and sit in the front of the class. It was a time when my wife, working on a doctorate in physical chemistry, could discover that her lab cost had been used to mop u a spill of toxic chemicals in the lab, and when her (male) dissertation advisor could tell a male colleague, within earshot of her desk, that “if you let a woman get a Ph.D. she’ll just take a job from some guy who needs to feed his family.”
That sort of thing deserved to be taken down, and we men helped dismantle it. It’s gone, and it has been gone for more than forty years. Only women who really do have second- and third-rate intellects think that the reason they are failing Calculus I is because ”math discriminates against women.” My wife spits on them, and so do I.
I’ve peaked at numerous points in my life, Howard.
Lived the life of Reilly with my late wife. We had homes in Manhattan and Woodstock and we were both making big money and singing together at caberets and clubs all over NYC, Jersey and Woodstock.
Another was the era of my 30s when I wrote for and played with successful rock bands and simultaneously worked in IT for the most famous corporate trial lawyer of our generation.
I’m having a hell of a good time, now. Three grandkids upstairs who love to come downstairs for horsy rides. And at the age of 69, I’m still making money writing and playing music, although it’s all classical and sacred music now.
There’s more. You want the full load?
"Dworkin, for all her overstatements and wackiness, was truly devoted to feminism as an end."
The end justifies the means?
Is this 'Cruel Neutrality™' talking or actual objective analysis of a strict academic bent?
"She was devoted to creating a world in which heterosexual sex would be contrary to law. Is that what "feminism" means?"
The essence of Dworkin is that there can be no such thing as a woman's consent to heterosexual sex, that even if she thinks she consented that really she didn't because she couldn't because a freely chosen consent to this is not even possible. And because a woman's consent can't exist, it must follow that all sexually active heterosexual men are rapists.
Whether this sort of radical unreasonableness ("Well, yes, I did consent, but that was then and this is now, and now I know better and therefore you owe me plenty, and, further, whatever damage I may do to you and your career is fully justified") somehow qualifies as "feminism."
It's certainly not disqualified just because it may be unreasonable or fundamentally unfair, as feminism is (at best) merely advocacy for women and girls. Which is, however, not at all the same as a political movement seeking equality, for advocacy implies that one is concerned only with the benefits to those one advocates for and need not concern itself with collateral damage to those others whom one chooses not to advocate for.
Broadly speaking, feminism is (at its best, at least) an advocacy for women and girls. And although advocacy for women and girls may be a good thing, it is also not the same as a movement for equality between the sexes. For feminism is not (and never has been) about men; it owes men nothing and any collateral damage (e.g., denial of due process) is always fully justified.
So whether or not Dworkin is "feminist" can't depend on whether she's somehow unfair to (straight) men, because feminism has never been about men, and owes men nothing at all. BUT, by insisting that most straight women are at best fools whose false consciousness leads them to perceive that they can consent when consent is not possible, she's not likely to be perceived as a friend or advocate buy most straight women either.
Narayanan Subramanian: nonconsensual
I'm confused.
Does it derive from consent or consensus?
Is there conflating going on?!
I know you're being funny, but the truth is: The word "consensual" derives from "consensus", but "consensus" and "consent" both derive from the same Latin root word "consintīre", meaning "to agree."
"Consensus" is basically just what you get when two (or more) people consent. :)
Thomas, we don't care about your bio unless it is directly germane and illuminates the post.
Go back to screaming at Althouse. It is a better look on you
"Look at Meade. He's a wet behind the ears Midwestern nice altar boy. This is what Althouse really wants."
Meade was a simple country boy. You might say a cockeyed optimist, who got himself mixed up in the high stakes game of world diplomacy and international intrigue.
My apologies FIDO, it's all my fault.
All the isms are a substitute for spiritual fulfillment: feminism, marxism, spiritualism, hedonism. Dpending on the person, these will work for a time but all are doomed to fail as a long-term source of joy and fulfillment. Shouting Thomas speaks from the heart and from experience. His story tells the common tale of a man who seeks flesh in his youth and now has God at the center of his life, to the great benefit of his family and his own well-being.
Howard, like Trumpit, are empty voices making noise that tell us nothing of theur heart, their beliefs, their experiences. Laslo's work is more anchored in the real world than these flame-throwing trolls. This is such an interesting blog, commenst and all, that I am surprised some sociologist has not undertaken a study of it as a masters thesis.
you can see why Gloria Steinem was the Feminists poster-child, she was the only one that was half-way decent looking. All the rest were dykes and uggos. The upright butch brigade.
By the way, the Left is full of very smart - mentally ill - people. That they're now being taken seriously, instead of being laughed at is a sign of the USA's decline.
"Pornography: Men Possessing Women"
That is slightly insane.
"To impress me, you have to put feminism first, and that means you should have cared about this stuff when Bill Clinton ruled the roost."
That's so nice and rational of you. But also irrelevant in the real world.
"Is that even true? You and your friends all believed there was a clear line and everything on one side was great"
I can't believe a prog spouted BS! I mean, they wouldn't just use whatever propaganda served their narrative at any one time, would they? That would be so sad! But let's be charitable and assume they have an intellect.
"I have not trusted the self-appointed voices of feminism since then."
A little late, but OK. Now take the next step: that for all progs all statements of principle and all arguments are just tools. It's phony BS all the way down. The only thing to trust is their absolute lust for power. You are their enemy. They despise you, with your tender feelings, and demands for logic, and nose for bad faith.
"She didn't care enough about free speech and she was over-the-top in her aversion to heterosexual sex, but I mean to honor her with this post."
Sisterhood over sense, still the problem today. Why not honor someone who crazily attacked two things that make life meaningful?
Remember, feminism isn't about women at all. Then it all makes sense.
Howard might be Ritmo bot 2.0 or he could be Althouse bot 2.0. Or he could be the plain dumb jerk he represents himself to be.
A weird thing I've learned about Althouse over the years. There are ideas that she wants expressed out there in the ether, but she doesn't want to be the one who uttered, wrote or even quoted those ideas.
The internet is a strange place.
She didn't care enough about free speech and she was over-the-top in her aversion to heterosexual sex
Shorter Dworkin: “All of your pussies are belong to me!”
Ladies, I wouldn’t take sexual advice from a woman who couldn’t get laid at fleet week, BTW.
Bingo Shouting Thomas. She is a scared resentful ( notably against men)little girl who hides behind deconstruction, the NYT and the OED. She knows from the history of comments here that many of her readers disagree with her ideas. But she is smart, she still gets to present her ideas. Just think of the ad nausum NYT articles she presents with a leftist narrative . Mostly she doesn't say yea or nay on the narrative but concentrates on style, much like the Steinfeld Show. When she does go into the yea or nay mode , her cultural marxist colors appear, and she gets a lot of blow back from her readers so she then backs off into the messenger mode. That's her schtick.
Speaking about resentful, Dworkin was also a resentful yenta but lacked Althouse"s Schtick.
@ Shouting Thomas:
My father always told me, "Never trust a guy who continually speaks well of himself."
I don't think of Althouse as scared or resentful.
She's a top notch IQ and legal mind. I've worked for the best and I know.
I think of her more as a consummate politician. There's a lot of weird shit she would say, but what in the hell good would that do her professionally?
Better for somebody else to say it.
Caligula said...
"She was devoted to creating a world in which heterosexual sex would be contrary to law. Is that what "feminism" means?"
The essence of Dworkin is that there can be no such thing as a woman's consent to heterosexual sex, that even if she thinks she consented that really she didn't because she couldn't because a freely chosen consent to this is not even possible. And because a woman's consent can't exist, it must follow that all sexually active heterosexual men are rapists.
*************
I wonder how Dworkin would react had she lived long enough to see the thousands of women who post nude Instagram selfies.
My father always told me, "Never trust a guy who continually speaks well of himself."
First, who in the hell told you that you should trust me? I'm an ordinary sinner. As B.B. King sang: "Nobody loves me but my mama/And she may be jiving me, too."
Second, my late wife often said, speaking both on her behalf and mine: "If you've got it flaunt it!"
"Second, my late wife often said, speaking both on her behalf and mine: "If you've got it flaunt it!""
***********
If she said that, she stole it from Eastern Airlines commercials back in the late 1960's.
Did she also tell you to "Be the Man with the Florida Tan"?
Blogger Shouting Thomas said...
“When are you going to admit, Althouse, that you were born with a silver spoon in your mouth and that you're one of the most fortunate people in human history in terms of your origins?
This bitching from a person born to wealth and position is disgraceful.
Hell, I was born in a shack in the middle of the cornfields and I didn't make my origins a political cause.”
———————————
Howard said...
“You are precisely making your humble origin a political cause. In fact, it has been the #1 source (followed by #2 your Dad was a badass war hero) for your cowardly avoidance of military service, your pathetic man-whore braggadocio and your fear and resentment of women who see right through you.”
———————————-
Bravo Howard!
Hahahahaha, Shouting Thomas getting a well deserved spanking today.
Actually, Inga, he didn't see right thru me. He thought my life peaked in high school.
It didn't, which he got even madder about.
I can imagine what thinking about the fullness, adventure and excitement of my life does to a miserable, bitter, vicious old bitch like you.
You must be boiling with the desire for revenge. That's your style.
It's OK. I've put up with jealousy from your kind my entire life. I can handle it.
What's it like to live a pinched, teeny, vengeful, boring life like you do, Inga?
I've never experienced it.
Maybe in another life.
Dworkin was an extremist, Shouting Thomas is an extremist, Achilles is an extremist...
Extremism taints everything it touches.
Shouting Thomas seems to think he knows how everyone lives, Althouse, me, and anyone who counters him. Shouting Thomas thinks he’s THE authority on everything and anything. Shouting Thomas demands we all respect him....lol.
Really, Inga, every time I read your writing, I think: "God, it must be awful to be her."
How do you stand it?
Hi Inga! Poor Thomas thinks people care about his resume. I'm glad Mike stood up for him and his new-found salvation of fingering his organ on Sunday.
2. You are falsely comparing handsome man with beautiful woman. The male analog to beautiful woman is rich man. Which Trump is."
Tim as the great Sophie Tucker once said "it's just as easy to fall in love with a rich man as it is with a poor man."
I'm 60ish, heavy and bald. And I dress schlumpy. Every so often when I drag myself to the mall and go into the expensive stores the very pretty sales girls practically ignore me, as if I didn't exist. Then I put what I want to buy on the counter, say wrap it up and pull out my credit card and suddenly I get a new found respect. Trump was right. And the feminist hate him for making it crudely obvious.
#MeToo #HerToo #NotHer #NotHim #SheProgressed
ARE "so many women today" angry? If so, are those angry women "liberals," socialists and other State-shtuppers? (Hi, Inga!) They'll always be angry as long as the rest of us resist being their serfs. Statists are always angry when people refuse to submit.
“Hi Inga! Poor Thomas thinks people care about his resume. I'm glad Mike stood up for him and his new-found salvation of fingering his organ on Sunday.”
LOL! Hi Howard.
You will never get back the hours and brain cells wasted reading the drivel produced by that mentality ill woman.
Who cares about their latest foam specked rantings, just confirms white women be mad. Avoid and let them stew in their own "dramas".
Who cares about their latest foam specked rantings, just confirms white women be mad. Avoid and let them stew in their own "dramas".
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