January 14, 2019

Okay. Let me know when you find credible evidence.

"Everybody has beliefs about how men should behave... We found incredible evidence that the extent to which men strongly endorse those beliefs, it’s strongly associated with negative outcomes."

Said Ronald Levant, former president of the American Psychological Association, quoted in "How ‘traditional masculinity’ hurts the men who believe in it most" (by Monica Hesse in WaPo).

171 comments:

tim maguire said...

That's quite a mishmash of a sentence. The WaPo actually ran it? They have gone into decline, haven't they?

Kevin said...

The war against men will be fought for their own good.

Limited blogger said...

I assume Trump is considered to be traditionally masculine?

Lucid-Ideas said...

"Everybody has beliefs about how psychologists should behave... We found incredible evidence that the extent to which psychologists strongly endorse those beliefs, it’s strongly associated with negative outcomes."

FIFY

tim in vermont said...

I am with Althouse, every word in that sentence was correctly spelled, for the record.

rhhardin said...

Negative outcomes means men take care of their women.

tcrosse said...

The word 'incredible' is vastly overused, but not in its sense of being believable. Hipsters who do travel shows on TV describe just about anything as, like, sooo incredible, for lack of any other adjectives. It's possible that in this case 'incredible' is used in the sense of 'awesome' or 'super, super'.

Anonymous said...

Assuming for the sake of argument that these findings are correct, has anyone examined the effects on societies as a whole of these masculine behaviors? Are we willing to destroy our society for the sake of the health of men in particular?

chickelit said...

So all those loser men on the Titanic should have saved themselves?

Fernandinande said...

The guidelines are saying ... But are they saying some men are sick, like, ... Hannibal Lecter masks and keep them away from everyone else?

My guidelines are saying that some MSM scribblers suck and should be kept away from everyone else because they don't explain the "how" in their fake headline.

zipity said...

Gee, it seems that men are inherently bad, and women inherently good.

Masculinity = toxic

Femininity = purity

Who would have guessed this would come from "higher" education.

*SNORT*

TreeJoe said...

The APA, sadly, has a fairly terrible history. History has not been kind on the APA going back a few decades from current best practices and beliefs.

I can understand why the APA would look at men given the rates of serious mental health issues, incarceration, etc.

What I don't feel is well established here is that they seem to be classifying intrinsic belief systems (i.e. "I am X", "A man does Y") as root causes without a strong basis for establishing that those items are an actual root cause.

For example, independence and self-sufficiency are portrayed as position male traits here. And yet if you fail despite your best efforts, that may lead to negative outcomes. Hence, a reliable upon independence and self-sufficiency and no alternative tools are viewed as creating a negative outcome for men.

But that's a fairly terrible argument. It's either a positive trait or not. A person either learns to adapt and grow or they don't. It's not about it being a "male trait" - it's about a subset of people who fail despite their best efforts and have a hard time dealing with that. And that isn't a male-centered problem.

....

P.s. I do appreciate that we are talking about an actual defined gender and the medical treatment therein instead of treating gender as completely fluid.

Chuck said...

Re: the rampant misuse of "incredible" in every day speech. Yes, It greatly bothers me too. All the time, whenever anyone does it.

But with you, Althouse, it hasn't seemed to have bothered you much when Trump does it. Ulysses S. Grant was "incredible." Ivanka would be an "incredible" UN Ambassador. We have an "incredible deal with China." Melania Trump is an "incredible First Lady." Kim Jong Un was "incredible" in his meeting with Trump. Trump gets "incredible" support fro evangelicals. After Trump "set up" Governor Scott Walker "with this incredible company called Foxconn," Trump's Wisconsin remarks used the word "incredible" so many times he at one point stopped himself and asked, "Have I used the word incredible enough times?"

There's never been anyone in American public life who has misused and overused the word "incredible," more than Donald Trump.

BarrySanders20 said...

Incredibly, Richard is strongly yearning for a strongly descriptive word.

Known Unknown said...

Shane!
Shane!
Come back!

Wa St Blogger said...

So, let me get this straight.... If yo are gay, it is wrong to suppress your natural self. If you are lesbian is it wrong to suppress your natural self. If your are transexual, it wrong to suppress your natural self, and it is near criminal to not give all aid an support to a person with gender dysphoria in their quest to embrace their true nature. If you are a woman it is wrong to suppress your natural self.

But if you are a man, it is wrong to to be your natural self. Your natural self is a blight, on society, a violence perpetuated on all other types of people.

It appears that the only acceptable masculinity is for a woman to exhibit it post-transition.

Ralph L said...

That's quite a mishmash of a sentence.

That was my first reaction, but it was probably a spoken quote, so I'll cut him some slack--and WaPoo for not correcting it.

Known Unknown said...

"There's never been anyone in American public life who has misused and overused the word "incredible," more than Donald Trump."

SAD!

Sydney said...

Here are the the guidelines. They do mention addressing "male privilege." I haven't read the guidelines for women and girls, so I don't know if they also recognize female privilege. I know quite a few women and girls who also feel the world owes them everything. We even have a popular slang word for them - "princess."

Leland said...

Another day, another WaPo article based on incredible evidence.

Fernandinande said...

I noticed the propaganda's apparent link to "APA’s inaugural Guidelines for Psychological Practice With Boys and Men" was fake, so here it is.

I mentioned this APA trash the other day and was struck by it's focus on the unearned "privilege" of men and boys.

Lucid-Ideas said...

chickenlittle said, "So all those loser men on the Titanic should have saved themselves?"

Actually - looking back from the 21st century - yes. This is me giving up my "toxic masculinity", as per instruction from the APA. Learn to swim ladies and men in ladies attire. Save Xerselves.

Dad29 said...

The Wimp Lobby is concerned that real men will walk up and slap the crap out of them over some principle like "America First" or "ALL Lives Matter."

Robert Cook said...

"I assume Trump is considered to be traditionally masculine?"

I wouldn't think so. He is, however, a traditional bully.

Charlie Currie said...

Snips and snails
And puppy-dogs' tails
That's what little boys are made of

What are little girls made of?
Sugar and spice
And all things nice

Same as it ever was.

Char Char Binks, Esq. said...

HAHAHAHA!

tim maguire said...

chickenlittle said...
So all those loser men on the Titanic should have saved themselves?


Excellent point. When your guiding principle is self-sacrifice for the benefit of your family and country, you will tend to experience worse outcomes personally.

Not Sure said...

If you're looking for credible evidence, you might want to find a source other than a psychologist.

tim maguire said...

Chuck said...
Re: the rampant misuse of "incredible" in every day speech. Yes, It greatly bothers me too. All the time, whenever anyone does it.

There's never been anyone in American public life who has misused and overused the word "incredible," more than Donald Trump.


Sure, but does anyone claim that Trump's use of language is elegant?

rcocean said...

Anyone talking in Left-wing cant like "male privilege" should be shot on sight.

cronus titan said...

This is just another in a line of thought that boy are defective girls and need to be trained, and if necessary, medicated.

Or as Professor Higgins lamented:

Why can't a man be more like a woman?

Nonapod said...

In modern times there's certain things that fly in the face of the whole "male privilege" narrative.

Men have something like a 3.5 times higher suicide rate than women.

On average, men have a shorter lifespan (although this discrepancy was improving somewhat before the opioid epidemic started to drive it back down)

Boys have fallen behind academically compared to girls over the past several decades.

Fatherless boys tend to fare far worse than fatherless girls in terms of tradional measures of success in our society.

rcocean said...

In the corporate world aspects of traditional "Male Behavior" will get fired or stuck in dead end job. Including:

1) Being Chivalrous toward your female co-workers
2) Surrounding yourself with a harem
3) Being a stoical and congratulating yourself for "taking it" and not complaining.
4) Behaving like Harvey Wienstein
5) Competing with other men in the office instead of cooperating for mutual advantage.

Shouting Thomas said...

I wouldn't think so. [Trump] is, however, a traditional bully.

You must have gotten the shit kicked out of you a lot when you were a kid over that Stalinist blabbering, huh Bob?

Have you ever considered that you had it coming?

Rick said...

These able-bodied straight white men were, as a group, the most privileged class in America — the Founding Fathers demographic — but they were convinced they were oppressed.

This is stupid. The most privileged class in America is the rich. Any system which penalizes poor by lumping them in with the rich is so obviously flawed we must conclude the bad faith is intentional.

Big Mike said...

I don't know if they also recognize female privilege. I know quite a few women and girls who also feel the world owes them everything. We even have a popular slang word for them - "princess."

I rather doubt they recognize female privilege, including the right to scream at a man they don’t know without fear of a punch in the face. If a princess wants to be an engineer, but can’t master calculus or differential equations, well then, she ought to be allowed to be an engineer anyway. Too bad for you if you’re on or under the bridge she designed.

I Callahan said...

I wouldn't think so. He is, however, a traditional bully.

How? What is a bully, in your eyes? Based on that sentence, you don’t have the vaguest notion what bullying is. Hint: it’s not pushing policies that lefties dislike.

Bullies are proactive, not reactive. Everything Donald Trump says (via Twitter or elsewhere) is a direct reaction to the bullying of the media and the left in general. In the most pure sense of the word, Trump is the farthest thing from a bully.

Lucid-Ideas said...

Big Mike said, "I rather doubt they recognize female privilege, including the right to scream at a man they don’t know without fear of a punch in the face. If a princess wants to be an engineer, but can’t master calculus or differential equations, well then, she ought to be allowed to be an engineer anyway. Too bad for you if you’re on or under the bridge she designed."

I have a bridge in Florid....did have a bridge in Florida to sell you.

Meade said...

Chuck, you've been asked to leave.

Shouting Thomas said...

@I Callahan

I see Bob as the classic asshole high school kid taking great pleasure in ridiculing every common decency of his community and then recoiling in righteous indignation when people got pissed off at him and took a swipe back.

Ann Althouse said...

"I assume Trump is considered to be traditionally masculine?"

I find him oddly womanly.

Not in every respect, but in many respects.

His expressiveness, with hand movements.

His overdone hair.

He doesn't get outdoors and do anything (aside from golf). He's been ensconced in posh interiors that he seems to like a lot. All that gold and decoration.

He likes to swan about on stage like a diva.

What's so masculine? The chatty cattiness? The pettishness? I don't think so!

Nonapod said...

I find him oddly womanly.

I actually agree. I seem to remember a while back his speech pattern analyzed as distinctively female.

Rick said...

I see Bob as the classic asshole high school kid

He's more like the college freshman who discovers the easiest path to ingratiate students with their professors is to trash America. This is supposed to show their independence from the traditional narrative. Some people never grow out of it.

Lucid-Ideas said...

"I find him oddly womanly"

Anyone remember this?

https://www.nyu.edu/about/news-publications/news/2017/march/trump-clinton-debates-gender-reversal.html

One of the students even said that Trump's "expressiveness...hand movements" translated to the female impersonator were just as effective, regardless of gender.

Trump and Trumpism is non-binary. Who knew.

Bob Boyd said...

"I find him oddly womanly."

Bill Clinton was called America's 1st black president.
By that rational, perhaps we should call Trump America's 1st woman president.
Wouldn't that drive Hillary back into the woods.

Earnest Prole said...

Bill Clinton and Donald Trump are the two most womanly Presidents we've had, and I say that with entirely non-pejorative implication.

I Have Misplaced My Pants said...

But with you, Althouse, it hasn't seemed to have bothered you much when Trump does it.

OH GOD SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP EVERYONE IS SO FUCKING TIRED OF YOUR OBSESSED BULLSHIT

mandrewa said...

Are there any psychologists that are traditionally masculine?

And, pointing out a different issue, regardless of masculinity, what percentage of psychologists will be male, thirty years from now?

I Have Misplaced My Pants said...

WHY DON'T YOU GRASP THAT IT'S NONE OF YOUR FUCKING BUSINESS WHAT DOES OR DOES NOT BOTHER ALTHOUSE

YOU ARE NOT AN AUTHORITY OVER WHAT SHE THINKS OR WRITES

LITERALLY NO ONE BUT YOU EVER WANTS TO HEAR IT

EVER EVER EVER

JUST EMAIL HER YOUR RANTS {SO SHE CAN BLOCK YOUR EMAIL ADDRESS} AND LEAVE THE REST OF US OUT OF IT

Tommy Duncan said...

Remember the "Men Anonymous" skits on the Red Green Show?

"I'm a man, but I can change, if I have to, I guess."

Men Anonymous on Red Green

Men's Prayer on Red Green

I Have Misplaced My Pants said...

Here are the the guidelines. They do mention addressing "male privilege." I haven't read the guidelines for women and girls, so I don't know if they also recognize female privilege. I know quite a few women and girls who also feel the world owes them everything. We even have a popular slang word for them - "princess."

My husband is at a large meeting in his industry this week and he texted me yesterday that the organizers used a large fraction of the available conference space to create a female only lounge for women to 'collaborate, network' whatever whatever, and men are explicitly not allowed in it. There is not enough space, now, for non-gendered conference space so men are literally meeting outside in twenty degree weather to talk because there isn't enough room inside the venue.

That's some male privilege there!

jaydub said...

It would appear Ronald Levant prefers girly men and Monica Hesse, likely an expert on girly men, deigns (danes?) to woman-splain why reliance on "stoicism, dominance, aggression and competitiveness" has served men so poorly. While getting to her point, she abuses every feminist stereotype about "able-bodied straight white men (who)were, as a group, the most privileged class in America — the Founding Fathers demographic..." Bless her heart, she doesn't realize that the reason our country was founded at all is because of the stoicism, dominance, aggression and competitiveness of those founding fathers. After all, when in history did girly men father anything? As she points out, even her own father was the type of man she disparages. What a pretentious, ungrateful bitch!

CJinPA said...

We found incredible evidence that the extent to which men strongly endorse those beliefs, it’s strongly associated with negative outcomes.

Did psychologists always see it as their job to treat bad "beliefs" or is that a recent development?

Robert Cook said...

"You must have gotten the shit kicked out of you a lot when you were a kid...."

No. I never had any problems with bullies. There really weren't too many of them around in my school or community. The couple or so I was aware of never bothered me. I guess I must have been a likable kid.

Mr. Majestyk said...

Blogger Ann Althouse said...
"I assume Trump is considered to be traditionally masculine?"
I find him oddly womanly.
Not in every respect, but in many respects.
His expressiveness, with hand movements.
His overdone hair.
He doesn't get outdoors and do anything (aside from golf). He's been ensconced in posh interiors that he seems to like a lot. All that gold and decoration.
He likes to swan about on stage like a diva.
What's so masculine? The chatty cattiness? The pettishness? I don't think so!

Trump is so comfortable in his skin that he doesn't care if some of his behaviors come off as womanly. That's some toxic masculinity right there!

jaydub said...

Thanks, Meade.

Mr. Majestyk said...

"There's never been anyone in American public life who has misused and overused the word 'incredible,' more than Donald Trump."

IMPEACH THE M_____F___ER!

Bob Boyd said...

"I guess I must have been a likable kid."

You're likable enough.

Static Ping said...

Some people might think Ann is being nitpicky here. The word "incredible" is being used incorrectly here, technically, and it may qualify as a "Freudian slip," but people use "incredible" for things that are technically not so all the time. The problem here is this is a psychologist and words have very specific meanings. It's jargon and the meaning in the field may be significantly different than the common understanding. This is a very significant error.

Also, the APA is apparently a hate group now, so keep that in mind.

Lucid-Ideas said...

These people are obsessed with Jungian archetypes so much so that their interpretation of traditional masculinity (and masculinity in general) is equivalent to the Lumber Jack skit in Monty Python.

The crisis of masculinity (if there is one) as well as other modern crises are largely a product of their (the psychological community) own making.

The modern psychological profession has run into a brick wall because it has become the profession (and professionals) that people go to ask, "why am I not happy?"

The answer to that question is largely philosophical, not medical. And the answer these people are providing is to tell men to cut their dicks off, rather than cognitive therapy to re-establish confidence and their fundamental value to themselves and to others.

Modern psychiatric medicine is going to be looked back on the way we look back on blood-letting. The damage that has been done by some of them is malpractice of the highest order.

Robert Cook said...

"He's more like the college freshman who discovers the easiest path to ingratiate students with their professors is to trash America. This is supposed to show their independence from the traditional narrative. Some people never grow out of it."

Again, no. When I was in college, I was completely apolitical, and was registered as a Republican, (due to my family's political affiliation). I even voted for Ford in 1976 and Reagan in 1980.

Known Unknown said...

"here is not enough space, now, for non-gendered conference space so men are literally meeting outside in twenty degree weather to talk because there isn't enough room inside the venue. "

That's because we men can handle the cold.

Known Unknown said...

"He's more like the college freshman who discovers the easiest path to ingratiate students with their professors is to trash America."

I specifically did this to get an A in Reading Texts. It was basically a creative writing class for me.

CJinPA said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
PM said...

The APA's pretty smart to take a popular click-bait position.
Before this, I'd've thought it was the American Poultry Association.

Bob Boyd said...

"men are literally meeting outside in twenty degree weather to talk because there isn't enough room inside the venue."

An example of traditional masculinity leading to a bad outcome.

CJinPA said...

There's never been anyone in American public life who has misused and overused the word 'incredible,' more than Donald Trump.

This is true and kind of funny. I noticed it during the 2016 campaign. He mainly uses it and other adjectives to punch up prepared remarks on the fly, injecting "incredible" and "wonderful" and "beautiful" into otherwise straight-forward prose.

Election Night 2016: "As I've said from the beginning, ours was not a campaign, but rather an incredible AND GREAT movement."

(In this case, he added the "and great." Apparently "incredible" alone just didn't capture it. And it really didn't.)

Bay Area Guy said...

The Snowflakes, Beta Males and Pajama Boys are trying turn us all into Nancy Boys!

Time for a steak and a beer.....

Ralph L said...

meeting outside in twenty degree weather to talk

Would that all meetings were done this way.

Bay Area Guy said...

Mr. Cook sez:

"Again, no. When I was in college, I was completely apolitical, and was registered as a Republican, (due to my family's political affiliation). I even voted for Ford in 1976 and Reagan in 1980."

Outstanding, Mr. Cook. Thank you for doing your small part in the fostering the Reagan revolution.

iowan2 said...

Tim McGuire said
Sure, but does anyone claim that Trump's use of language is elegant?

Good observation. To me the better question is, how does President Trump do in communicating his message, to the citizens? Or, staff, Congress, foreign leaders?
Reagan was called the great communicator, unsure if history has yet ruled on whether he was elegant. Reagan told a great story. I listen to WHO radio, where Reagan worked in the 1930's They often play clips of Reagan from that time, and his story telling talents were made for radio.
So, elegant is one measure of communication, success of message (swaying opinion) is another measure. Since we are now talking about President Trump, and not Presidential candidate Trump, I conclude his communications talent (use of language) is top shelf.

RK said...

"By that rational, perhaps we should call Trump America's 1st woman president."

Obama was our first woman president.

tcrosse said...

Obama was our first woman president.

Scuttlebutt has it that Michelle was the first male First Lady.

derek said...

My male privilege and toxic masculinity made sure that someone had heat in their house this weekend, and that a business could operate and not lose product. I will top it off by sending them invoices for my time and effort. This morning I have a list of similar things to do. Oddly the women involved are appreciative.

I am proud to be male, toxic and privileged.

tim in vermont said...

First you change the culture, through almost complete control of the media: movies, TV, news, etc, to be anti-traditional male, Then you go out and find that traditional male types are now suffering! It’s Lysenkoism. They want to pretend that evolution never happened, that the traits that evolution selected for are now retrograde and if they can just fix this generation, like cutting off the tails of the mice, the next generation will be born with no tails! It’s science!

Here is a brief history of Lysenkoism for you lefties that have been sheltered from hearing about it via Lubos Motl

A crackpot named Trofim Lysenko proposed alternative, superstitious methods to increase the yields in agriculture (basically some reeducation camps for crops – contemporary cultural Marxists would approve Lysenko's methods because they were also all about "nurturing") and he became a darling of an influential local mass killer named Joseph Stalin.

Lysenkoism has been utterly discredited, but it’s never far from the heart of the left.

cronus titan said...

Mrs. Cronus and I have been having fun with the Hallmark movies (usually with Mrs. Cronus' running commentary). They all have a formulaic plot that work: hyper driven big city career woman has a successful but soulless life, usually a boyfriend or fiancee that is relentlessly scheming their next career move, she finds herself in a smaller town beneath her station (often her hometown) when . . .

She meets a ruggedly handsome manly man who works with his hands. She does not care for him at first until he does a manly man thing (fixing her car is a staple, but protection in some way works) causing her to re-evaluate her life and what she looks for in a man. The manly man always prevails over the urbanized schemer.

Before dismissing this, Hallmark has made well over 100 of these movies in the last few years, and they are always among the highest rated around Christmas. They are not creating something, they are onto something.



tim in vermont said...

She meets a ruggedly handsome manly man who works with his hands.

Gilmore Girls

Earnest Prole said...

As someone has surely noticed, "incredible evidence" sounds exactly like Trump, which can't possibly be a proud moment for the former president of the American Psychological Association.

tim in vermont said...

I don’t know why I keep giving Lubos links since he banned me as a commenter years ago for making fun of Putin.

gilbar said...

is it safe to assume that Ronald Levant is a skirt boy?

traditionalguy said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
traditionalguy said...

Incredible means outside perception bias norms. What MOH winners do in battle is incredible. It is beyond the call of duty. What Guardian Men do is taken for granted by everyone including those very men.

We were birthed as a Nation by one named Washington who battled a Global Empire's. forces seeking our enslavement And today were are being protected by another one named Trump who is battling a Global Empire in the Obama-British/EU cooperative deep state that has sought his death so many times in so many ways, just as the German man ruling England called King George sought Washingtons death so often.

Bob Boyd said...

AEA finds having a traditional shell leads to bad outcomes for eggs when omelettes are being made.

Birkel said...

Althouse's Law about gender differences: apply progressively.

Hagar said...

Men have something like a 3.5 times higher suicide rate than women.

Life with a woman will do that to you.

Michael K said...

causing her to re-evaluate her life and what she looks for in a man. The manly man always prevails over the urbanized schemer.

"Baby Boom"

iowan2 said...

I suppose toxic masculinity is a thing, same as toxic womens rights, I hesitate to use femininity.

If men are going off track, it is most likely the absence to fathers. Dad's are important. My Dad taught me that real men, respect their elders, honor their women, treat all with honesty. Exceeding expectations, following through on promises. Physical confrontation is last resort. Only instantiate physical confrontation in the protection of the weaker among us. Do the next right thing, give credit where credit is do, and take responsibility, even if maybe, its not all your fault. Sympathy for sorrow that you yourself have endured, and empathy for what you have to experience.
Lots more. I attempted to pass this along. One of my sons best friends in school what a kid that had Cystic fibrosis. It started when a couple of boys were picking on him and my son stepped in and told them from then on, the would have to go through him to pick on the little guy. Sometimes you get positive feedback, I never know.

Pianoman said...

She meets a ruggedly handsome manly man who works with his hands. She does not care for him at first until he does a manly man thing (fixing her car is a staple, but protection in some way works) causing her to re-evaluate her life and what she looks for in a man. The manly man always prevails over the urbanized schemer.

Before dismissing this, Hallmark has made well over 100 of these movies in the last few years, and they are always among the highest rated around Christmas. They are not creating something, they are onto something.


Harlequin Romances also use a formula, which is why people like Barbara Cartland could pound out 20-25 of them every year.

The formula works, and people who consume the product are generally unaware of the formula.

Rinse, Lather, Repeat.

iowan2 said...

geesh... initiate.

tim in vermont said...

The formula works, and people who consume the product are generally unaware of the formula.


When somebody claims to read multiple books per week, I figure that person is into genre fiction where it doesn’t matter too much if you miss a paragraph or a chapter.

cronus titan said...

"The formula works, and people who consume the product are generally unaware of the formula."

People who consume those movies are well aware of the formula. They like it. Why?

tcrosse said...

Harlequin Romances also use a formula, which is why people like Barbara Cartland could pound out 20-25 of them every year.

Lee Child has a formula, or maybe a template. Yeah, template sounds more manly.

Larry J said...

There is not enough space, now, for non-gendered conference space so men are literally meeting outside in twenty degree weather to talk because there isn't enough room inside the venue.

This must not be allowed! Men can not be allowed to discuss things or conduct business without women present. It's perfectly Ok and indeed a good thing that women can have private businesses, colleges, and associations while any male-only things must be forced to admit women or shut down. If there isn't enough room for men to meet indoors and woman don't want to go outside in the cold, the men must be prohibited from meeting without them. Because patriarchy and male privilege. /s

bagoh20 said...

The passage of the 19th Amendment by proves this to be true.

That male privilege thing isn't working out so well for young men today. The fact that most women could care less shows a basic difference between men and women, namely men are kinder, more fair, and just. If men did not have the right to vote, I doubt that modern women would give it to them. See the culture today, especially among the young, and especially in higher education. Women have power advantages today and they mostly use them to marginalize and punish men. How else do you explain men's very nature being called toxic by educated women and feminized men?

stephen cooper said...

"They are not creating something, they are on to something."

Yes they are, and for young men who are not good at fixing cars or at difficult masculine jobs around the house that generally include wearing a tool belt, a similar (non-Hallmark???, I don't know, I never watched a Hallmark movie) scenario is telling a young woman you are interested in that you would be glad to take her to the shooting range and teach her to shoot. Or if you are in Canada, offer to take her to the skating rink and to teach her how to skate on hockey skates and how to do a "hockey stop".

Works on middle-aged women, too, in my experience.

Pianoman said...

People who consume those movies are well aware of the formula. They like it. Why?

It hits all the right beats.

It's pr0n without the sex scenes.

FIDO said...

In 2011, Prof. Jonathan Haidt, of New York University’s Stern School of Business, asked a gathering of some 1,000 psychologists to raise their hands if they identified as politically conservative. Exactly three people did.

In a study published this week in the journal Behavioral and Brain Sciences, Haidt and his co-authors argue that this lack of political diversity—specifically, the near-absence of conservative viewpoints—is hurting social psychology, allowing biased language to creep into experiments and promoting findings advancing liberal narratives while ignoring those at odds with them.


Yes, liberal psychologists do not like traditional men, including the head cuck of the study.

They also have found 'religious people suck', 'conservatives are mentally unbalanced', 'conservatives are violent' etc.

Then three weeks later, when their studies are challenged, they are found deficient in academic rigor.

So...Ms. Althouse...tell me again why we should be paying such institutions and such people?

Fernandinande said...

Lysenkoism has been utterly discredited, but it’s never far from the heart of the left.

Now they call it "epigenetics".

And this is probably the Lubos link you want, about the New Lysenkoists denouncing James Watson.

Pianoman said...

RomComs are similar, although I think the deviations from the formula are more common than rare.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1B2yBIVNj5w

Fernandinande said...

Lee Child has a formula, or maybe a template. Yeah, template sounds more manly.

No, it goes like this:

Formula > template > recipe.

Known Unknown said...

Here's Gillette (P&G) to tell you how to raise your kids:

https://clio-muse-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/2019-01/video/We%20Believe%20%20The%20Best%20Men%20Can%20Be%20%20%20Gillette%20%28Short%20Film%29.mp4

n.n said...

Negative outcomes means men take care of their women.

With traditional masculinity, it's women and children first.

stevew said...

I blame Trump for this rampant and ridiculous overuse of adjectives and superlatives. Clearly this proves he is unfit for the office of POTUS when he undermines our language so. And have you seen his spelling? Atrocious!

Jupiter said...

Hey, lighten up. The task psychologists have chosen is to help those who can't seem to help themselves. Being a "traditional man" is hard, damned hard. It's an ethos developed for dealing with a hard world, and it requires one to regard himself as essentially expendable. Just cuz you get killed doesn't mean you're doing it wrong. This is based in biological reality, but our current social arrangements have moved us a long ways from that reality. If we're not at war, then we don't all need to act like soldiers. If the APA is actually trying to help people who are suffering, good for them. Not that I trust the limp-wristed bastards as far as I could toss their severed heads with a trebuchet.

bagoh20 said...

M.G.T.O.W.

traditionalguy said...

Traditional bullies are what we need to get the job done on football fiields , wrestling mats, battlefields, and commander-in-chiefs/Presidencies. They will prepare to win and fight until they win. Losing is not an acceptable option to traditional bullies.

tim in vermont said...

Have you ever noticed that successful contractors who do home improvement jobs, supervised by the wives of busy executives or professionals, are generally good looking?

Rick said...

The formula works, and people who consume the product are generally unaware of the formula.

Hollywood uses a formula as well. Hallmark's works because their formula covers ground Hollywood won't. I'll also put long money on which fans are more generally unaware of the formula.

stevew said...

How to tell if you are traditionally masculine in a traditionally masculine profession: do you clean yourself up before or after work?

Big Mike said...

@cronus titan, almost right. For example “Winter’s Dream” features a rolly-polly Dean Cain as the city slicker, high-powered advertising exec who finds true love in his daughter’s ski coach and who decides to settle down with her in her second tier ski resort hometown. “One Winter Weekend” has a pair of couples that meet cute at a ski resort but live and work in the same city and return to it. And there are other movies where the guy is the city slicker and the woman works with her hands, but he is utterly captivated and stays. Like “Love in Paradise,” where Luke Perry plays a Western star who lives in New York and can’t ride a horse until he meets the beautiful daughter of a retired rodeo star.

So Hallmark isn’t afraid to flip the script now and again.

There are other aspects to the Hallmark formula. Use competent, highly likeable, stars that aren’t quite Hollywood A listers. Have picturesque locations. Have something, usually a misunderstanding involving an old flame from one or the other lead, come between them about 2/3 of the way through the script.

And, yes, I am a total sucker for happy endings and true love. Having married my own true love 44 years ago, I could wish that for everyone. Even Democrats.

Pianoman said...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-act_structure

This was also used in music, particularly during the Classical period: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonata_form

Interesting how these both use 3 as their core number.

"3 is a magic number" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aU4pyiB-kq0

tim in vermont said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
FIDO said...

When the Republicans and the Independents decide to cut a lot of higher education funding (it's coming because of the Welfare State), the Academics have only themselves to blame.

Fernandinande said...

Here's Gillette (P&G) to tell you how to raise your kids:

"It takes a big man to cry, but it takes a bigger man to laugh at that man."

dbp said...

The problem physiologists have with traditional masculine men, is that such men don't have any use for psychologists.

"This masculine reluctance toward self-care extends to psychological help. Research led by Omar Yousaf, PhD, found that men who bought into traditional notions of masculinity were more negative about seeking mental health services than those with more flexible gender attitudes (Psychology of Men & Masculinity, Vol. 16, No. 2, 2015)."

Bob Boyd said...

Living is strongly associated with negative outcomes.

Laslo Spatula said...

Men: your masculinity isn't as 'toxic' if you drink pineapple juice.

I am Laslo.

Bruce Hayden said...

"I find him oddly womanly"

And I find his wife, Melania, oldy masculine. Partly, of course, it is her Slavic features. But her general demeanor too is more masculine than we have seen with other recent First Ladies. She has a quietness to her that you rarely see in women, who often seem to flit around and chitter. Part of that observation comes from seeing the simularities between Melania and my partner, who has never been comfortable in female culture because of all the superficiality.

tim in vermont said...

Crazy Rich Asians is the closest thing to a traditional RomCom to come out of Hollywood in a long time, and everybody was afraid to criticize the values it celebrates because P.O.C. Were they white, Twitter might have broken.

Hey Skipper said...

Are there any psychologists that are traditionally masculine?

One.

Bob Boyd said...

"Are there any psychologists that are traditionally masculine?"

Unlike a traditionally masculine male, the link doesn't work.

dbp said...

Men have a higher suicide rate than women. Does that mean men are more depressed than women, or does it mean men are more decisive?

tim maguire said...

Tommy Duncan said...
Remember the "Men Anonymous" skits on the Red Green Show?


+1

Pianoman said...

I wonder if Hollywood will produce a gay romcom? The traditional demographic won't go see it, but there might be enough $$$ in the LGBT community for multiple viewings.

Plus, if it's two girls, you'll get the teenage boy demographic as well.

Ralph L said...

your masculinity isn't as 'toxic' if you drink pineapple juice.

But if your spine is already Jello, it turns you into soup.

tim in vermont said...

Men have a higher suicide rate than women.

Women try more often, they just have a hard time figuring out stuff like that.

traditionalguy said...

Suicide attempts rates are won by the females. Suicide success rates are won by the males. Men get the job done.

Statistics tell truth, but liars use statistics that are misapplied to convey untruth.

Bruce Hayden said...

The problem is traditional masculinity is what has given us the world that we live in. Almost none of the technologies that we use, day to day, that make our lives so much easier than when we were living in caves, was created by women. Not the dishwasher, automobile, jet plane, Internet, computers, etc. All male creations. Males were also the ones who got on tiny ships and sailed across the treacherous seas to discover this continent, and then to settle it, for the benefit of their women and children. Put women in charge, and we would likely be living under Sharia law in hovels in Europe (or wherever your ancestors came from), because instead of setting sail in 1492, if women had been in charge, they would still have been debating whose feelings were being hurt, when the Moors returned to Spain, and then proceeded into France and points north.

Howard said...

As soon as I taught my grandsons to skateboard, they wanted to shoot their bow and arrows while riding. These idiots can't suppress the man in the boy and vice versa.

Hey Skipper said...

Are there any psychologists that are traditionally masculine?

One.

(Hangs head in shame.)

Known Unknown said...

"Plus, if it's two girls, you'll get the teenage boy demographic as well."

Chasing Amy was probably too independent.


buwaya said...

"...it requires one to regard himself as essentially expendable. Just cuz you get killed doesn't mean you're doing it wrong."

A very important point. We are here for a purpose, which is not personal "happiness".
This does not suit the modern idea of the purpose of life, which seems to be to drift along without mental or physical discomfort.

buwaya said...

The psychologist in question, as per the article, is unhappy that people are taking his argument the wrong way.

But in this murderous cultural atmosphere there is no way NOT to take it the wrong way.

You do not send ambiguous signals into this cultural killing-ground.

Ralph L said...

Are there any psychologists that are traditionally masculine?

Dr. Helen Smith

Last week she was bemoaning her profession at PJM.

traditionalguy said...

Men who want to win will avoid psychologists that can and will brand them as mentally ill. We are not fools. And a mental illness branding gets you thrown out of the game. That’s why it is a weaponized accusation against Trump, Reagan, and any new person seen as a threat to the governing classes. Corollary rule is trust no doctors you don’t have good refererences on. Most doctors are not seeking your well being.

buwaya said...

" Does that mean men are more depressed than women, or does it mean men are more decisive?"

My speculation -
Men seem to have a much more powerful drive to have a purpose.
To do. To be useful.
Denied a purpose, or frustrated in it, its easy to conclude that one is redundant.

Women seem much more satisfied to merely exist. They are more likely to assume that they are ends in themselves.

RBE said...

Leave men (of western civilization) alone. All this bashing is undermining our culture.

Known Unknown said...

"Men seem to have a much more powerful drive to have a purpose.
To do. To be useful."

Viktor Frankl was a psychologist.

NotWhoIUsedtoBe said...

Women are loved for who they are.

Men are loved for what they do.

Howard said...

Man up and stop bitching. Girls need extra help, be man enough to bear the burden.

Howard said...

Go start a men's support group and you can put on your sweater vests and your khaki pants and your tassel shoes to commiserate with like-minded Nancy boys

Laslo Spatula said...

"Plus, if it's two girls, you'll get the teenage boy demographic as well."

And if it is two girls and one cup...

I am Laslo.

Can Of Cheese for Hunter said...

Ever since Hillary lost - the "boo hoo I'm a helpless woman" party keeps playing. Like a bad party that won't end and you cannot find the exit.

The loudest are the wealthy females in Hollywood who make millions of dollars and still feel like they are under some sort of boot.

*Streep liked that Weinstein boot just fine.*
As a female, this over-blown indulgent male-hating / "females are poor victims" party is nauseating.

wildswan said...

My fave part of all this is the way in which men have been running psychology since it started, leaving out women and minorities from the benefits. But now it turns out that they were also leaving themselves out of all the benefits, according to the Wapo story. "they need help and are afraid to ask for it, ... they’re experiencing emotions they can’t even name, much less express. ... they blame themselves." And, according to the APA newsletter story, manly men, trapped by their own expectations not only blame themselves but engage in risky behaviors such as avoiding vegetables.
"the more men conformed to masculine norms, the more likely they were to consider as normal risky health behaviors such as ... avoiding vegetables"

But actually the Guidelines as explained by the APA are not humorous at all. They really are an attack on men

"Prior to the second-wave feminist movement in the 1960s, all psychology was the psychology of men. Most major studies were done only on white men and boys, who stood in as proxies for humans as a whole. ... But just as this old psychology left out women and people of color and conformed to gender-role stereotypes, it also failed to take men’s gendered experiences into account." And so these feminists led the way in a new way of studying men.

The new way of studying showed that masculinity harms men:
"The main thrust of the subsequent research is that traditional masculinity—marked by stoicism, competitiveness, dominance and aggression—is, on the whole, harmful."

These quotes come from the APA newsletter and show that the WaPo story is softening down the attack on men which is contained in these Guidelines. Moreover, the Wapo is not really explaining that this set of Guidelines is based on the theories of second wave feminism and as such is in principle hostile to men. It is wrong for an organization to adopt guidelines which are in principle hostile to a group based on that group's sex. Federal money should be withdrawn. But meanwhile such is the world we live in. If you need help, know to whom you are speaking.

The Vault Dweller said...

Assuming the correlation is true, that the men who most strongly endorse the traditional ideas of masculinity, have some of the worst rates of negative emotions. Perhaps that is the men correctly self-diagnosing the problem, and simply being unable to carry through with their own treatment plan. Society values men more when they are strong, stoic, and take on responsibility. Most women don't want a male partner who is an over-emotional, weak push-over, who doesn't do much to contribute. Also men look on men like that as lower status. Because they are. If the left's "cure" for the problem is to tell men, "It's fine. Just be yourself," it will make matters worse for those men. Because even if the Men adopt that mindset there is no way Society as a whole will.

I think what some men, rightfully complain about is that Society has set up a perverse situation in that Society wants and values Men who exhibit traditional masculine values, but then society also makes it harder for some men to succeed and fill that role, when it creates programs and policies that specifically exclude or select against men, or traditional masculine values. When is the last time there has been a policy that specifically aimed at raising the levels of Male employment in a particular industry? There are certainly many industries that are dominated by women.

n.n said...

[Women] are more likely to assume that they are ends in themselves

As evolutionary links, they are. As homemakers, they are. As [original] caretakers, they are. Men play a role that is equal and complementary, including as taxable commodities that interface with the society at large. Still, life is long, and women can and do play multiple roles. We're not children anymore, reconcile.

Yancey Ward said...

"But with you, Althouse, it hasn't seemed to have bothered you much when Trump does it."

As I wrote last night- Chuck overuses "Blah"....relentlessly.

I Callahan said...

People who consume those movies are well aware of the formula. They like it. Why?

Exactly right. My wife watches these every day. We even joke about how formulaic they are, right down to the “kiss”, which happens at the 57-58 minute mark of the last hour. That aside, she loves them. Why? Because this is the natural order of things. Women want to be protected by a toxically masculine man, no matter how much feminism tries to put that square peg into that round hole.

n.n said...

Most women don't want a male partner who is an over-emotional, weak push-over, who doesn't do much to contribute

Unless they are transgender, women are looking for equal and complementary. Even transgender women are looking for a complement of at least mental gender attributes.

JAORE said...

Think I'll go out back and start a fire.

Yancey Ward said...

Chivalry isn't just dying, it is being murdered.

Yancey Ward said...

Althouse nails it! Trump is a diva.

Skeptical Voter said...

That writer sounds like he's leading the charge for the wussification of the USA.

I think back to the things that my father and grandfather built, and my great grandfather did. Stoicism, endurance and drive to accomplish something are not a bad thing. Came west to California with Fremont, guided wagon trains along the Oregon Trail, drove cattle up the Chisholm Trail, organized and ran local irrigation company in South Texas, built canals and dams in the Western USA etc.


I think it's fair to say that you could tell the head of the APA "You didn't build that."

But you couldn't say it to any of my ancestors.

Yancey Ward said...

And Static Ping is 100% correct. "Incredible" has different connotations, and Levant uses the word incorrectly in this quote. It is incorrect for exactly the reason Althouse states- it is undercutting what Levant is trying to convince the listener to believe. I am sure it is a thoughtless error, but still wrong.

DavidUW said...

Toxic feminity deserves much more exploration.

Bob Boyd said...

"Toxic feminity deserves much more exploration."

If I'm not mistaken, there's a whole sub-category of deodorant products devoted to this affliction.

n.n said...

Toxic feminity deserves much more exploration.

Toxic femininity has justified an unprecedented violation of human rights, and was the basis for civil, scientific, and moral corruption with a forward-looking perspective.

FullMoon said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
BUMBLE BEE said...

Hey Skipper... Thanks for that one! Laughed Out Loud!. I forgot Gunny's commercial. How about that toxic guy Rick Rescorla. Didn't work so well for him this time but...

https://neveryetmelted.com/tags/rick-rescorla-911/

What a man!

Henry said...

One of the truly bizarre parts of this -- when you go to the APA description of the new guidelines -- is the conflation of medical conditions with social constructs:

Boys are far more likely to be diagnosed with attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder than girls writes Stephanie Pappas, and a paragraph later, "40 years of research [shows] that traditional masculinity is psychologically harmful..."

ADHD is a problem with brain chemistry not faulty models of socialization, you moron.

This is typical of the article. It's a grab bag of studies and stats without any attempt at a rigorous analysis at cause and effect or even correlation. The common denominator is that anything bad attached to gender is included. Some men are stoic and that makes them sad. Other men are gay and that makes them sad. Some black me work really hard and that makes them sad. Other black men are in prison and that's sad too. Some old guys retire and that makes them sad. Young guys drop out and that's super sad.

This isn't science. It's a sales and marketing campaign for psychologists.

JML said...


"It takes a big man to cry, but it takes a bigger man to laugh at that man."

I was at my nephew's wedding several years ago. He re-connected with his childhood friend after several years being estranged, and he ended up being his best man. He was a blue collar outdoorsman guy and he ended up getting emotional in his toast to the happy couple. He fled to the back of the hall. I was sitting back there and he was looking embarrassed and awkward. I talked to him. I said, "I also used to get very emotional. I tear up at wedding and I cry when the dog does or the sidekick dies in movies, and when I did, some people would look at me funny or even make fun of me. Then, I discovered TaeKwonDo. A lot of people think it is just for physical development, but there is a mental and spiritual aspect that really helps you control your emotions and gives you inner peace and strength....Now, I still cry at some things, but when people laugh at me, I can kick the living shit out of them. Then, its who's crying now, ass hole!" We had a good laugh over that.

RigelDog said...

iowan2 said, "One of my sons best friends in school what a kid that had Cystic fibrosis. It started when a couple of boys were picking on him and my son stepped in and told them from then on, the would have to go through him to pick on the little guy. "

I would about burst with happiness and pride if my kid did this (not that we're not proud of our kids in their own ways). Ya' done good!!

Jupiter said...

Henry said...

"It's a grab bag of studies and stats without any attempt at a rigorous analysis at cause and effect or even correlation."

Right, exactly. It's called "psychology". The fact that you can study something does not necessarily mean that you can learn anything useful about it.

Jupiter said...

"Science" has a reputation for efficacy that has really only been earned by technology. Technology is that vanishingly small subset of scientific theory which has been reduced to useful practice, generally by painstaking repetition of carefully controlled experiments. The idea that something as amorphous and variable as human behavior can be understood scientifically is dubious in the extreme. We believe in psychology because it would be so useful, if only it existed.

buwaya said...

"Science" has a reputation for efficacy that has really only been earned by technology."

Much of the reputation science has won has been under false pretenses. Most technology does not come out of the scientific process but from engineering, if one wants to give it a word, which works in a very different way. Most of what the educators want to credit "science" with was created by anonymous blacksmiths, or their equivalent.

Hyphenated American said...

Weirdly, these “scientists” don’t want to ask an obvious question - how much is “traditional masculinity” a result of millions of years of evolution.... If it is, then it will be a bit hard to suppress it.

Wilbur said...

Pianoman said...
Rinse, lather and repeat
________________________________________________
I recommend rinsing after you lather.

phunktor said...

John McWhorter essays a “Not really our kind, Muffie” takedown on a man who is in every way his better.

Unknown said...

Ironically, couples with the most traditional gender roles report the highest satisfaction and more sex (the women especially, men always report being pretty satisfied). More masculine men make more $. Psychologists have among the highest divorce rates. I think they are just jealous.

Unknown said...

stoicism, competitiveness, dominance and aggression: They left out team work. Men evolved to work in teams. We do not show dominance the way the #1 lion or gorilla does, by beating the shit out of all subordinates. Men have worked in teams to hunt, to fight the neighboring tribe, to build a house, to catch fish, to smoke out bees, everything, for 300,000 years+. But psychologists don't do any of that stuff and know nothing of teams. I work in a conservative setting with manly men and not once have I seen "dominance" gone off the rails--always team work and respect.

Those traits above are what women want. Women tend to worry because they are not as strong as men so more things can harm them. They need that dominant man. When I have been in a dangerous situation the women always instantly stood behind me (even when the danger was a goose or bees). When anything goes wrong the ladies call the husband. After doing something manly (painting a room, fixing something major), it turned on my wife. The propaganda is so contrary to how women actually are.

Kirk Parker said...

Iowan2,

Surely you mean "top kek"?