December 23, 2018

"But to this very day I keep thinking whether we had the right to make the decision to start the uprising and by the same token to shorten the lives of many people by a week, a day or two."

"At the first moment when I saw the great German force entering the Ghetto, my first reaction, and I’m sure not just mine — I felt we were nothing. What could we do with our pathetic, almost non-existent weaponry, when faced with the tremendous German firepower, with light canons and tanks and armored personnel carriers and a huge infantry force numbering hundreds, hundreds if not thousands… I felt utterly helpless."

Said Simcha Rotem (in 2013), quoted in "Simcha Rotem, last surviving fighter in Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, dies at 94/Rotem fought Nazis in city streets, later helped rebels flee through sewers; Netanyahu says, ‘His story will forever be with our people.’"

Something else he said: "We are all animals on two legs. That’s how I feel. And among those animals on two legs there are some who are deserving of that description — humans."

100 comments:

AllenS said...

If it looks like you're going down, go down swinging. My hat is off to all of those Jews in that Warsaw Ghetto. Brave people, all.

Fernandinande said...

Pet peeve: There are no ghettos in the US, just slums.

Big Mike said...

I’ll answer Simcha Rotem’s question. They died killing German soldiers who otherwise would have rounded up other Jews and/or killed Allied troops. It’s called “war” and it’s nasty and brutal.

Laslo Spatula said...

Is there really much of a difference between the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising and the current Resistance?

Both were fighting Hitler.

I am Laslo.

gilbar said...

when i hear people talking about "our side has the most guns', i often have thought about Warsaw. The will to fight is what matters.
George C Scot might have said that he didn't want his troops to die for their country; but i assure you George Patton sure wanted His troops to be WILLING to die for his

gilbar said...

correction, according to Gen Gavin, Patton said
No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country, he won it by making the other poor bastard die for his. (so, scot WAS quoting Patton)
However, The WAY that to be 'making the other poor bastard die for his', Is by being WILLING to die for yours

rhhardin said...

Short term vs long term gains and losses.

Mark said...

An interesting choice in quotes to excerpt from the story.

Also -- why the manipulation of the quote? Why remove the reference to his "testimony to the Yad Vashem Holocaust Memorial Museum"?

Why not highlight his further quote, that he felt “an extraordinary sense of spiritual uplifting…this was the moment we had been waiting for…to stand up to this all-powerful German”? Or why not quoting from the story that "The Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, the greatest incidence of Jewish resistance to the Nazis, has become a monumental symbol in Jewish and Israeli lore"?

This isn't the usual sort of bitching about why this story and not that. This is specifically about why downplay the heroism of his life and instead highlight doubts?

AllenS said...

Mark said...
why downplay the heroism of his life and instead highlight doubts?

Because it's part of the story?

John henry said...

6 million Poles were murdered in the German camps. 3mm jews, 3mm gentile. German plans for Poland included complete destruction of polish culture, libraries, legal records, baptismal records, historical records and more.

Poles were to be reduced to subhumans working as slaves for the Germans. Mainly in agriculture.

Not just during the war but forever.

In some ways what the Germans planned for the Poles, and made a pretty good start on, was worse than what they planned for the Jews. (if such a calculus of horror is even possible)

Two books I'd recommend:

The Wall by John Hersey about the Warsaw ghetto and the uprising.

Poland by James Michener is a more general history of Poland starting with the Mongol invasions to 1980 or so. A pretty longish section about Poland under the National Socialists.

John Henry

John henry said...

Lots of Jews in the Polish resistance and all credit to them.

But there were even more non-Jews.

It was a Polish uprising. Not, really, a Jewish one.

A gentile Pole was as likely to be murdered in the National Socialists death camps as a Jewish Pole

John Henry

Bay Area Guy said...

It's a good article about a scared, but brave man and his fellow brave comrades. A very important historical piece, but 1 pet peeve:

"He was 15 when World War II broke out and Nazi Germany invaded Poland."

Yes, in Sept 1939, the Nazis did invade Poland, which most folks accept as the flash point of WWII in Europe.

However, IN ADDITION, the USSR also invaded Poland from the East. Why? Because the Nazis and the SOVIETS signed the "non-agression pact on 8.23.39 to basically enable each genocidal dictator to invade and conquer the European countries each side wanted. The SOVIETS delayed their invasion of Poland about 2 weeks after the Nazi invasion, but this gets lost in the history of who the aggressors were.

8.23.39 - Molotov-Von Ribbentrop Pact (should be called Stalin-Hitler Pact"
9.1.39 - Nazis invade Poland
9.17.39 - Soviets invade Poland

(Nearly 2 years of European bloodshed committed jointly by Nazis & Commies)
6. 22.41 - Nazis break the pact and invade USSR.

Bottom line: the Commies were allied with the Nazis for a big chunk of the war.



Drago said...

Laslo Spatula: "Is there really much of a difference between the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising and the current Resistance?
Both were fighting Hitler.
I am Laslo."

The lefties are far beyond caricature.

They have already, literally, compared themselves to D-Day participants for opposing Trunp and members of antifa are demanding to be treated as war veterans.

If LLR Chuck gets his way and the dems win insane things like that will indeed happen.





Wince said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Wince said...

Often quoted, John Maynard Keynes wrote "in the long-run we are all dead".

Tommy Duncan said...

The folks in the media/DNC cabal who cry "Trump is literally Hitler" do a disservice to those who knew the acts of the real Hitler.

Darkisland said...

John Maynard Keynes was gay and had no children. In the long run he was dead.

I think the famous quote is explained by his homosexuality. A more current phrase for his economic philosophy is "Kick the can down the road" as in we won't be around so let's not worry about it.

In the long run, most of us are not dead. We live on through our children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren and on down through the centuries.

When we kick the can down the road, or follow Keynes' ideas, they are the ones who eventually pay the price.

John Henry

chillblaine said...

El Yeti Viene!

Yeti gets torched

Rusty said...

If caught with a Jew by the Nazis, not only were you shot. but everyone in your house was shot. Everyone.
Every Jew, no matter where they live in the world, should own a gun.

Darkisland said...

Speaking of Poles who fought in the resistance let's not forget Witold Pilecki.

He volunteered to infiltrate Auschwitz to provide onsite reports of how bad it was.

He did lots of other interesting stuff.

He was Catholic.

https://www.iwp.edu/news_publications/detail/the-hero-who-voluntarily-infiltrated-auschwitz

John Henry

Trumpit said...

"A gentile Pole was as likely to be murdered in the National Socialists death camps as a Jewish Pole" - John Henry

Where do you get your facts from? Out of your expletive deleted?

"One-fifth of the Polish population perished during World War II, half of them were 3,000,000 Polish Jews murdered in The Holocaust, constituting 90% of Polish Jewry."

You stand corrected, but it won't bring the murder victims back.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Poland

Darkisland said...

Blogger Rusty said...

If caught with a Jew by the Nazis, not only were you shot. but everyone in your house was shot. Everyone.
Every Jew, no matter where they live in the world, should own a gun.


True.

Also, if you were a Pole, there was a good, though random, chance that everyone in your house would be shot for no reason at all.

Every person, no matter where they live in the world, should own a gun.

Darkisland said...

Trumpit,

Perhaps the problem is with the "as likely".

Half of all the Poles who were murdered in the Socialist death camps were Jewish. Half were non-Jewish. About 6mm in total.

As a proportion of population you are right. Jews were proportionally more likely to be murdered in the camps.

Sloppy writing on my part.

You are not denying the murder of the 3mm non-Jews, are you? Trumpit a Holocaust Denier? Oh, noes! Say it ain't so.

I've been called anti-semitic before for pointing this out. Go ahead, Trumpit, water off my back.

John Henry

Temujin said...

John Henry- before the Nazis, Warsaw was home to the largest number of Jews in any city other than New York. The ghetto was not a shared community of neighbor Poles. The Jews of Warsaw and all surrounding communities were forced to move into the Ghetto. 400,000 Jews were forced to live in an area of 1.2 square miles, behind a 10' high wall topped with barbed wire. The hunger in there became so great people would just lay down in the streets and die. They were put there to die.

You can watch Shoah sometime to see how their Polish neighbors felt about it all. Shoah

Poland is a great nation, and its people have a long and interesting history, which includes invasions by other nations multiple times. But they also have this as a part of their history.

chickelit said...

AllenS said...If it looks like you're going down, go down swinging. My hat is off to all of those Jews in that Warsaw Ghetto. Brave people, all.

George Soros disagrees.

Bay Area Guy said...

How many Poles were killed when our socialist, peace-loving friends, the SOVIETS invaded from the east?

There's the Katyn Forest massacre , ya know?

Birkel said...

Did Netanyahu assume Xis gender?
Are we sure he wasn't one of those people with a penis who menstruates?

The rules these days are hard to apply.

Darkisland said...

Temujin,

You are absolutely right about the Warsaw ghetto. We must never forget the horror. I'll recommend John Hersey's book "The Wall" again. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0394756967/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_bibl_vppi_i2

But we must also never forget the horrors visited on the non-Jewish Poles either.

John Henry

Darkisland said...

Blogger Bay Area Guy said...

How many Poles were killed when our socialist, peace-loving friends, the SOVIETS invaded from the east?

There's the Katyn Forest massacre , ya know?


How many indeed. 22,000 Polish officers were executed by Uncle Joe's minions in the Katyn Forest.

Looking up the number, I also found this:


At least 111,091 people living in the Soviet Union, mainly of Polish ethnicity, were executed during the Polish Operation of the NKVD (1937–38) as part of the Great Purge.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre

John Henry

Laslo Spatula said...

In video games, children pretend to be heroes by shooting evil soldiers and monsters and zombies.

In social media, adults pretend to be heroes by Tweeting for the Resistance.

At least the kids know they are playing a game.

Meanwhile, the adults keep trying to get the newest top score on Donkey Kong Orange Hitler.

I am Laslo.

Yancey Ward said...

"Donkey Kong Orange Hitler" should probably be trademarked.

Bill, Republic of Texas said...

Another recommendation for reading about this era is Bloodlands. I don't remember the author's name but he is a big time historian.

Literally, it took me years to read the book. I could only read about the horros committed by the Nazis and Communists in small drabs.

Bill, Republic of Texas said...

https://www.amazon.com/Bloodlands-Europe-Between-Hitler-Stalin/dp/0465031471

Fernandinande said...

I recommend "We Were the Lucky Ones", which tells the tales of several of the author's family members who were living Poland at the beginning of WW2 and how they ended up in Siberia, South America, or points between.

Unknown said...

And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand?... The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt! If...if...We didn't love freedom enough. And even more – we had no awareness of the real situation.... We purely and simply deserved everything that happened afterward.
―Aleksandr I. Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago (1958-1968)

James K said...

A gentile Pole was as likely to be murdered in the National Socialists death camps as a Jewish Pole

I see you were already corrected on this, but I'll just add it's kind of like saying in the US whites are as likely to be murdered as blacks, because roughly half of all murder victims are white. Obviously that's not right, as blacks make up only about 11 percent of the population. It might be correct (but completely uninteresting) to say that a murder victim is about equally likely to be black as white.

The point is virtually all Jews in Poland were murdered. A small minority of non-Jewish Poles were also murdered (if I recall correctly something like 10%).

Greg Hlatky said...

However, IN ADDITION, the USSR also invaded Poland from the East.

In addition, the Soviets kept after the war what they took.

El Supremo said...

I read stories of this type of heroism and I wonder if I would have the balls to fight and face likely death to save others if I had other options. I hope I would, but I have no certainty. If backed into a corner with no options but to die, I'm sure I would fight, but with an escape, I'm not so sure. I am reassured by the likely truth that many very brave people were unsure themselves before they had the choice put before them. Such people are the true elites of our kind, and you never know if there are enough of them among us when the SHTF.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

gilbar at 9:01 when i hear people talking about "our side has the most guns', i often have thought about Warsaw. The will to fight is what matters.

This is the truth. Right now some people may have more guns and ammo.....but until your life is made so uncomfortable or the danger is right at your doorstep, most people are not willing to sacrifice everything and fight.

Our lives are not 'bad' enough.... yet .....for a true revolution to happen. Most people are more comfortable than they are angry or motivated.

The tipping point always comes as a surprise to those who continually push and push. The meek will eventually realize that they don't have anything to lose and rise up.

Just like the Warsaw Ghetto.

El Supremo said...

The atrocities committed by ISIS recently seemed inhuman in their cruelty and senselessness, but reading about what the Soviets and Nazis did makes them seem like pikers. The fact that these things were done by western, educated, civilized cultures is what is most disappointing and scary about it. Any group of humans are capable of doing these things - people like us, and modernity is no protection. There is no safety in civilization, that's what makes the Second Amendment so important, and it's a right that in the entire world, in all of history, only Americans are guaranteed. That right, that last resort, is only guaranteed by itself and those who value and express it. More of us should.

Gunner said...

But isn't George Soros equally heroic for waxing nostalgically about being a Nazi collaborator?

Can Of Cheese for Hunter said...

Unknown 12:08 - excellent.

LYNNDH said...

Go With God.

Can Of Cheese for Hunter said...

& here, someone must say this:
Dear leftwing a-holes, To say Trump is worse than Hitler is to reveal your absolute historical ignorance and your moral degeneracy. To blithely proclaim such a cliche of western progressive indulgence betrays the very Jews who suffered at the hands of the National Socialists called the Nazis.

Can Of Cheese for Hunter said...

It is a beautiful thing that his man lived such a long life.

Humperdink said...

@DBQ Right on the button.

chickelit said...

Gunner said...But isn't George Soros equally heroic for waxing nostalgically about being a Nazi collaborator?

I think George Soros is just fine with being the last living Nazi. It's his supporters who get all butt hurt.

rcocean said...

People need to remember that one year later, in August 1944 the Poles rose up in the "Warsaw Uprising" and fought the Germans with their bare hands. Tens of thousands were brutally murdered and and many of the surviviors were herded off the concentration camps. The City - on Hitler's orders - was leveled to the ground.

Trumpit said...

"It is a beautiful thing that his man lived such a long life."

Thank you for mentioning "his man." Please tell us more about his husband and their mutual devotion. It is indeed a "beautiful thing" as you say, when they made love. However, the Holocaust against wildlife is ongoing, and as brutal as ever. Outlaw hunting and trapping. Deport rednecks to Mexico. Go vegan, and help save the planet from imminent environmental destruction, and collapse. The 2nd Amendment/Heller decision was used by Scalia and the NRA as cover for their violent and vile villainous hunting savagery. The 2nd Amendment like the 13th floor of a building must be relegated to antiquity as an anachronism of bad luck. Peace shall prevail on Earth at Christmas and throughout the New Year, so long as redneck Texans get it in the neck. Merry Christmas to all, except for Donald Schlump, and his ilk.

chickelit said...

@Trumpit: Nothing say vegan like buying IN-IN-OUT cheeseburgers to feed to hungry seagulls.

cubanbob said...

John Henry you make a false analogy. To the Germans, the Poles were animals whose lives were of limited value. To the Germans the Jews were vermin to be eradicated. A number of Poles risked everything to save Jews but do not overlook that a number of Poles ratted out Jews to the Germans. Indeed Jews that went into the forests to join partisan bands were often turned in by peasants or the partisan bands themselves. In fairness to the Poles, they weren't the only ones who turned in Jews. The French who suffered far less than the Poles were quite the collaborationists in general and in particular with rounding up Jews for the Germans to murder. As for the Communists murdering the ten thousand Polish officers, indeed the Communist did the kill them as to be sure there wouldn't be a nucleus of a resistance movement to the Soviets, but don't think for a moment the Germans wouldn't have killed those officers as well for the very same reason.

Lydia said...

So a post that's a tribute to a Jewish hero elicits mainly comments about all the heroic non-Jews and all the bad lefties who don't like Trump. Oh, and Soros. Sick.

cubanbob said...

Blogger rcocean said...
People need to remember that one year later, in August 1944 the Poles rose up in the "Warsaw Uprising" and fought the Germans with their bare hands. Tens of thousands were brutally murdered and and many of the surviviors were herded off the concentration camps. The City - on Hitler's orders - was leveled to the ground."

Indeed, Stalin deliberately kept the Red Army from pushing the Germans thus allowing the Germans the ability to crush the uprising. Stalin once again wanted to make sure that there would be no Polish resistance to the Communists.

chickelit said...

@Lydia: We have not yet reached peak polarization. Following that will come attack and then depolarization It's nature's way

Drago said...

Darkisland: "How many indeed. 22,000 Polish officers were executed by Uncle Joe's minions in the Katyn Forest."

For decades western liberals and leftists were very effective in covering up communist atrocitites in order to advance western liberalism.

The Katyn Forest massacre was one of those.

rcocean said...

"So a post that's a tribute to a Jewish hero elicits mainly comments about all the heroic non-Jews and all the bad lefties who don't like Trump. Oh, and Soros. Sick."

Yes, because remembering all the Poles who died at Warsaw is antisemitic.

sinz52 said...

Bay Area Guy:

"Bottom line: the Commies were allied with the Nazis for a big chunk of the war."

Germany invaded Russia in September 1941. That means that the Hitler-Stalin pact lasted two years, and Russia's fight against Germany lasted the next four years.

sinz52 said...

"Indeed, Stalin deliberately kept the Red Army from pushing the Germans thus allowing the Germans the ability to crush the uprising. Stalin once again wanted to make sure that there would be no Polish resistance to the Communists."

The Russians suffered 19 million casualties in the defense of their land. That doesn't sound like Stalin was deliberately pulling his punches.

Indeed, of all the nations that fought Nazi Germany, Russia took the most casualties by far and suffered the most.

The winter siege of Leningrad by Nazi troops was horrific, and the citizens of Leningrad who defended their city were truly heroes.

Humperdink said...

@Trumpit. Just like Trump is blessed by having an opposition party composed of wild-eyed nut cases, as are we on the AA blog. I want to thank you for filling that void. Merry Christmas from an NRA life member.

Drago said...

Sinz52: "Indeed, of all the nations that fought Nazi Germany, Russia took the most casualties by far and suffered the most."

Yeah, well thats what happens when that nation makes common cause with Hitler while murdering tens of millions of its own citizens while purging vast swaths of your experienxed and trained military Officer Corps during the Great Terror from '36 to '38.

Perhaps thats why so many everyday Russians died fighting Germans: so few competent officers.

So cry me a river for Russia.

Humperdink said...

The Russian population continues decline 144 million (+/-) today. Was 150(+/-) mil in the 1990's. That spells doom from an economics perspective.

realestateacct said...

I'm not sure if it was this man or one of his companions who I saw interviewed on PBS talking about the difficulty of obtaining weapons for the uprising a few decades ago. It turned me from a reflexive pro-gun control person to an NRA member.

Rusty said...


"Indeed, of all the nations that fought Nazi Germany, Russia took the most casualties by far and suffered the most."

And many of those casualties are a direct result of Stalins bloodthirsty ineptitude not Hitlers prosecution of the war.

Never forget that the United States fought two wars thousands of miles from our shores. Supplying ourselves and all our allies with the material resources to fight those wars.

cubanbob said...

sinz52 said...
"Indeed, Stalin deliberately kept the Red Army from pushing the Germans thus allowing the Germans the ability to crush the uprising. Stalin once again wanted to make sure that there would be no Polish resistance to the Communists."

The Russians suffered 19 million casualties in the defense of their land. That doesn't sound like Stalin was deliberately pulling his punches."

Not to diminish the suffering of the Soviet people but in this instance Stalin did deliberately pull his punches. He made excuses to start his counter offensive when had he attacked the Germans while the Poles were uprising the Germans would have had greater losses and the Soviets would have probably advanced further and sooner and with the Western Allies also advancing in France the war might have ended sooner.

Bay Area Guy said...

@sinz53,

Germany invaded Russia in September 1941. That means that the Hitler-Stalin pact lasted two year...

Right. The math is pretty easy. Good first step.

Now tell me the significance of the Hitler-Stalin alliance and how Europe was impacted by it.

Many Lefties and many college professors, miss this step.

langford peel said...

The Jewa under the Nazis are the perfect example of what happens when the people give up their guns to the government.

Take a lesson.

langford peel said...

Recently a Democratic Congressman demanded the confiscation of legal firearms and warned the deplorables that the government has nukes.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

It's always good that as decent as the commenters here can learn how to become when it comes to genocide, you can still manage to find a naive scumbag like chickenlittle who has to advertise his resentment over the fact that not every Jew the Nazis and their collaborators got their hands on were murdered. Apparently he regrets the fact that some where able to survive.

chickenlittle sounds very much like a devotee of the early Hitler - the demagogue who first started ranting about the rich Jewish financiers, like Soros, stirring up his hatred in the people against them alone. But of course, it never ends that way. Although don't tell chicken little that. Propaganda like this probably would have really resonated with little.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Trump is definitely not Hitler. Hitler, for one, never claimed that he could shoot someone in broad daylight on Fifth Avenue and still not lose any supporters. Which is really saying something, given how strong the German-American Bund was in New York at that time.

Not every paranoid, white nationalist/supremacist, greedy, psychotic, hateful, incompetent fanatic bent on global domination is a Nazi. Some are just Republicans.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

If you look closely, you can see chickenlittle in the front row.

n.n said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
n.n said...

The German Socialists (Nazis) were strictly progressive for their time. They indulged in diversity (i.e. color judgments) including racism, redistributive change (because "Jew privilege"), carried out mass social justice adventures and forced refugee crises, and with a forward looking perspective, operated Planned Pole (PP) and selective-Jew in the open and in abortion chambers under a socially justified layer of privacy. Still, the Nazis were second and third to other prominent left-wing regimes of their time in the Soviet Union and PRC in that order. Today, democracy dies in Kiev, elective regime changes through sodomy and abortion, refugees are waterboarded in the Mediterranean, and PP still operates under a layer of privacy.

Laslo Spatula said...

When the only tool in your Toolbox is Hitler then every problem you see looks like a swastika.

I am Laslo.

Marc said...

The Bloodlands writer is Yale professor Timothy Snyder; am reading his book The Reconstruction of Nations, about the Polish-Lithuanian res publica becoming the nation-states of Poland, Lithuania, Belorussia, and Ukraine. A long read indeed. Made the mistake of looking at the Wikipedia entry; he seems to think that Mr Trump is going to make his own version of the Reichstag Fire in order to assume the principate, tsk. I wish I hadn't done that.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

When the only tool in your Toolbox is resentment of the party that gave America FDR then everything you cling to, your every salvation, is something that he defeated. Including this.

Go watch the video. The images of American flags bookended by other familiar national symbols and a glowing giant George Washington at the center shows how easy it is for our conventional enemies to appropriate every available American symbol and imagery when it suits them - including the Pledge of Allegiance. These people said they insisted they were patriotic Americans and that every thing they did was a reflection of just how American they thought they were. Including their Trumpian hatred of all the "others" and the "interests" they pursued.

This is an important part of our history. Our victory in WWII was so complete and our destruction of our enemies so total that people don't know (and in your case, don't want to know) just how ordinary a part of the American landscape they once were, too. They were forced to go underground in 1945, until now when much of what they represent is being actively and deliberately (if ignorantly) revived.

History is repeating itself.

https://anightatthegarden.com

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

n.n. says racists are pro-diversity and Nazis welcomed immigrants and refugees.

The right-wing "mind" is truly deluded. They really do hate/resent FDR just that much.

Maybe they know that as much as they revere Reagan as some counterweight to that, the USSR was collapsing on its own anyway and we wouldn't have had to fight a cold war with the communists if Republicans hadn't crashed their deregulated economy in 1929, giving us a global depression and the ensuing rise of fascism in Europe, and the very WWII - replete with its genocides and tens of millions of war deaths - hat required us to ally ourselves with and uplift the USSR in the first place.

That's a lot of history to erase when it comes to a record as embarrassing as the Republicans'.

Oh well. At least Republicans are finally reckoning with the outsourcing fervor that their deregulatory Wall Street Reaganism gave us.

Laslo Spatula said...

When the only tool in your Toolbox is resentment of the party that gave America FDR then everything you cling to, your every salvation, is something that he defeated. Including this

Gee, who could've been supporting the Nazis in NYC in 1939?

From Wiki on the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact : "Beginning in September 1939, the Soviet Comintern suspended all anti-Nazi and anti-fascist propaganda, explaining that the war in Europe was a matter of capitalist states attacking each other for imperialist purposes.[194] Western Communists acted accordingly; while before they supported protecting collective security, now they denounced Britain and France going to war.[193]...

...In the United States, "The leftists, of course, included the Communist Party, which during the 1939–1941 era of the Nazi-Soviet pact, was slavish in its effort to appease Hitler and sabotage the Allied cause and American preparedness. Their soul mate in Congress was Vito Marcantonio of New York's American Labor Party."[1]..."

On the plus side, you racked up some serious points on Donkey Kong Orange Hitler.

I am Laslo.

rcocean said...

Many of the Soviet losses in WW2 were caused by Stalin's ruthless waging of war.

how many people know that FDR/Churchill offered to send Red Cross food packages to Russian POW's and Stalin refused?

How many people know the Germans asked Stalin to exchange lists of POW's and abide by the Geneva Convention?

Hitler was Happy that Stalin refused because that meant he could ruthlessly dispose of Russian POW's any way he wished. And bad treatment of German POW's meant they'd fight hard not to get captured.

rcocean said...

Stalin also ruthlessly prioritized food allocation during WW 2. At the top were Soldiers, factory workers, and Communist Party members.

At the bottom were: Gulag Prisoners, Deportees (like Volga Germans) and the old and sick.

Result: Skyrocketing death rates in the Bottom categories.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Gee, who could've been supporting the Nazis in NYC in 1939?

You don't have to ask the question. The footage is right there for you. Literally in black and white.

It's the same fervent ethno-nationalists who wave flags and believe in fuehrerprinzip then, and now.

If the terms of the illusory Hitler-Stalin pact interest you more than all the elements in society Hitler rallied then and Trump rallies now, along with all the follies committed by right-wingers then and now - (a lopsided deregulatory state that left millions behind and in search of other "remedies" - including those leaders, their wars and everything that WWII left us with) - then clearly you don't have anything resembling responsible priorities. You just have asinine rhetorical points to score and politics to play.

Go see where it gets you. We know how this story ends. It's all been played out before.

But I'm sure your leader is powerful enough to make history bend to his individual will. Or so you'd like to believe.

Yep. Can't recall where I've heard ideas like that before.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Well if you love everything Stalin did so much rc, then you must really love the way Republicans gave us the very depression that made a war in which we had no choice but to ally ourselves with him inevitable.

They're doing much the same thing now. Sowing the seeds for further chaos.

America first, right! Go look up the history of that term, while you're at it.

Republicans are learning disabled.

Laslo Spatula said...

"Go see where it gets you. We know how this story ends. It's all been played out before."

I've seen the story played out before, many times now.

You and I, we've evidently seen different endings.

I must say, however, that in Donkey Kong Orange Hitler you have such a supple wrist.

Merry Christmas and Happy Mashed Potatoes.

I am Laslo.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

You and I, we've evidently seen different endings.

I'm just telling you the history of what massive deregulation, upward wealth redistribution and inequality, followed by ethno-nationalist fervor as pretend answer to all that, leads to.

As for the ending you've made up in your head, well, that's entirely your own business.

roger said...

Another recommendation:

www.publishersweekly.com/978-0-19-510450-9

narciso said...

Stalin the Georgian party apparatchik who had wrangled at least one safe conduct pass from the okhrana, who purged a good portion of the party leadership including the top of his command staff, who had some prewar contact with Reichwehr units training in Russia, who waged war against the Social Democrats, deeming them Social Fascists, making the Nazis the beneficiaries, another ill considered move,

PuertoRicoSpaceport.com said...

Blogger President Pee-Pee Tape said...


war in which we had no choice but to ally ourselves with him inevitable.

Prior to December 10, 1941, why was war with Germany inevitable?

What dog did the US have in that fight?

Germany declared war on the US because the US had been at war with them for several years already. Financing the British war effort, selling war supplies to Britain, giving destroyers to Britain, occupying Iceland, flying anti-submarine patrols, bombing, depth charging German subs and more.

All the while claiming to be neutral.

All the while the press covering it up from the American people.

All the while FDR promising to keep us out of the European war.

With 75-80% of the American public against European involvement as late as November 1941 how was our involvement inevitable?

Only because FDR wanted it and was willing to be deceitful to get it.

John Henry

PuertoRicoSpaceport.com said...

Squeamish,

Can you explain 2-3 ways that the US progressive ideology, from 1900 or so to today, differed from Mussolini's Fascist ideology?

The entire New Deal was modeled on Mussolini's Fascism. Quite explicitly. He was the man who made his country work. He was the man who famously "made the trains run on time".

John Henry

PuertoRicoSpaceport.com said...

Blogger rcocean said...

how many people know that FDR/Churchill offered to send Red Cross food packages to Russian POW's and Stalin refused?

That was the least of the Russian POWs problem. For a Russian soldier to get captured was an act of treason under Stalin. Hundreds of thousands of Russians who had fallen into German hands were shot.

By the Russians.

On Stalin's orders.

John Henry

PuertoRicoSpaceport.com said...

Laslo,

I hope one day we get to meet and I get a chance to buy you a drink or a meal. You do it all. You give us pony tale girl and many great posts in that ilk. Then you turn around and give us some very astute, serious, political and historical commentary.

My hat is off to you.

I wish you mot only happy mashed potatoes back but merry stuffing as well!

John Henry

PuertoRicoSpaceport.com said...

BTW: It is always good to remember that "The Good War"(tm) was fought mainly by draftees. (60-70% overall)

The European war never had broad popular support among the American people.

Too many Americans were only a generation or 2 removed from Europe in 1941 and knew why their parents and grandparents had left. There was not a lot of love for "The old country". More generally, the American attitude was "Fuck 'em. They've been fighting and killing each other and my ancestors for 1000 years. Not my problem anymore"

Prolific censorship prevented the media from portraying anything other than that everyone else was all in, what's the matter with you?

Not direct censorship, of course. Even in wartime the 1st Amendment applies. At least technically. Of course paper was rationed and if your newspaper didn't act patriotic, well, you might find it hard to get paper. Radio stations were licensed, of course. Take the wrong tone and you might find yourself with licensing problems or inability to buy vacuum tubes.

Even speaking on the proverbial soapbox could get you hauled in for disturbing the peace or such if the message was not correct.

It was a bit more subtle than it had been under Wilson (another fine Demmie who ran in '16 on a promise to keep us out of the European war)

More subtle and less visible, perhaps, but also more effective and more onerous.

John Henry

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

There are many definitions of fascism but the world should breathe a sigh of relief that it now has the esteemed "PuertoRicanSpaceport's" definition: Making a train work. How genius. And yet, he thinks his alternative - the incompetence of Republicans, can keep a country from devolving into chaos and anarchy.

I think a Nobel prize is in the air.

PuertoRicoSpaceport.com said...

Squeamish said

There are many definitions of fascism

Actually no. There are only 2 definitions:

1) "Any political position or idea I disagree with"

2) Since Mussolini came up with the entire concept of Fascism and was head of the Italian Fascist party, the definition he gives in "The Doctrine of Fascism"

I've asked you several times to tell us what you think the difference between American Progressivism of the past 120 years or so and Mussolini's Fascism.

Since you never do, you are left looking like you can find no difference.

John Henry

narciso said...

Yes fascism is a deformation of sorels syndicalism, Mussolini was a former socialist rather viciously anti clerical (like our trolls) interested in state control.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Nope.. You asked someone/something you called "Squeamish."

You said making things that work is fascist. I've always said right-wing morons in America are about nothing but their own incompetence and fear of government. I'm happy to let someone as stupid as yourself admit why your tribe erroneously believes enforced government incompetence is the only way to be free.

Your 1) and 2) (and the next thing you said) are too stupid to address. You have a history of demanding to be shown how it is that the moronic things you say are wrong. You demand to know why radiation is bad to rub on your balls! Hey man, go and rub that stuff on your balls!

Loud, demanding, wrong and stupid. Squeaky Spaceport is like a street corner drunk who pulls down his pants and demands that you tell him why 2 + 2 does not = 3.

Too funny. Believe what you want. It's not like your stupidity and insistence is a reflection on me!

You are a credit to your fellow conservatives. ;-) Just not to the human race.

Never change, old moron.

exhelodrvr1 said...

"The Russians suffered 19 million casualties in the defense of their land"

Not surprising, considering Stalin's purges of his own officer corps

chickelit said...

I think George Soros is just fine with being the last living Nazi. It's his supporters who get all butt hurt.

Do I know Ritmo or what?

narciso said...

I dont hold soros teen years against him, the way he has spent his resources since the 90s is something else again.

Rusty said...

exhelodrvr1 said...
"The Russians suffered 19 million casualties in the defense of their land"

"Not surprising, considering Stalin's purges of his own officer corps"

And in his pursuit of conquering other lands. After a hotly fought nine month war the Finns grudgingly ceded some of their country to Stalin. The Finns lost some 36,000 dead. The price Stalin was willing to pay? According to Khrushchev over 400,000. Think of how many Russian soldiers lives would have been saved if Russia had a coherent defensive strategy instead of a 'shield wall' of Russian bodies.

Rusty said...

""But to this very day I keep thinking whether we had the right to make the decision to start the uprising and by the same token to shorten the lives of many people by a week, a day or two.""

No sir, You had an obligation to.