"God sheltered me and camouflaged me against the coast guard and the navy," John Allen Chau wrote before he was killed last week on North Sentinel Island.It would be wiser to leave people alone who want to be left alone, but I presume he felt quite strongly that God was asking him to do otherwise.
Indian ships monitor the waters around the island in the Bay of Bengal, trying to ensure that outsiders do not go near the Sentinelese, who have repeatedly — and forcefully — made clear they want to be left alone....
"I DON'T WANT TO DIE," wrote [John Allen] Chau, 26, who apparently wanted to bring Christianity to the islanders. "Would it be wiser to leave and let someone else to continue. No I don't think so."
ADDED: Much better detail at the NYT article. Excerpt:
Mr. Chau... took a careful selection of gifts: scissors, safety pins, fishing line and a soccer ball. But the people seemed variously amused, hostile and perplexed by his presence, he wrote. He described a man wearing a white crown possibly made of flowers taking a “leadership stance” by standing atop the tallest coral rock on the beach.
The man yelled, and Mr. Chau tried to respond, singing some worship songs and yelling back something in Xhosa.... “They would often fall silent after this,” he wrote. Other efforts to communicate with tribe members ended with their bursting out in laughter.
Encounters became more fraught. When Mr. Chau tried to hand over fish and a bundle of gifts, a boy shot an arrow “directly into my Bible which I was holding.” “I grabbed the arrow shaft as it broke in my Bible and felt the arrow head,” he said. “It was metal, thin but very sharp.”...
“It’s weird — actually no, it’s natural: I’m scared,” Mr. Chau wrote. “There, I said it. Also frustrated and uncertain — is it worth me going a foot to meet them?”...... “Please do not be angry at them or at God if I get killed,” he wrote. “I love you all.”
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128 comments:
This is close to the feel good story of the day.
Notify the Watchtower.
There was this guy from Nazareth, who got himself into a heap of shit. He didn't survive either. I think he made it to age 33.
This was terrorism, and the natives were right to kill him. They will probably all die of some western disease now.
I don't support their retrieving his body, as it will just contaminate the island further.
Have you ever had Jehovah's Witnesses pester you? They hadn't been out since the 1970s when I said (repeatedly) that I wanted nothing to do with them. Well, they came back this past summer, and their first words were "we have you down as not interested", and I said "don't come back". A couple of words for John -- maybe God didn't like you.
Or the left.
So they are Indians and are protected by the Indian navy which is the only reason they can maintain the fiction that they can shut out all others. Why do they have the right to keep others away? It’s probably just to protect the patriarchy, so best if we flood the zone with migrants and tourists and adventure travelers and those with government positions and practicing physicians and missionaries and those who practice the missionary position. They’d a been absorbed long ago if they had to rely on their own defenses. No evidence that what they have now is superior to what would exist but for the artificial attempt to maintain the island like an exotic human zoo.
Some people willing risk their lives to save a deer, some choose to risk their life to save souls.
Harold Bloom - The American Religion - likes all the sects except Jehovah's Witnesses.
The chapter ends, "There is something peculiarly childish in these Watchtower yearnings: they remind me of why very small children should not be left alone with wounded and suffering household pets."
A recent meme from Facebook.
Does anyone from the Island of the Inbred (sometimes marked as Inbred Isle on old maps) ever get to leave? Surely one or two rambunctious and rebellious yoots desired to leave paradise and discover what the world outside the isle is like. That is human nature. Wonder if the enterprising and restless end up getting invited over for a community dinner.
There are other remote or obscure Indian tribes or sects even more bizarre.
You could only visit the Naga tribes of Nagaland with a permit until recently. Their thing is headhunting and cannabalism, both of which have been outlawed but you know how it goes with traditions. I visited them in December last year.
Or the Aghori Sadhu. Their behaviour is protected. If you dig a layer deeper than Wiki, you’ll see their thing runs to having sex (only with) prostitues, and only when they are menstruating, and only in a deep carpet of cremated human remains. I couldn’t find an Aghori. The sashus you see sitting on the ghats in Varanasi are all fakes.
*sadhus
Some people aren't happy unless they make someone else's life a living hell.
Heard them talking papa doing some store front preachin'
Talked about saving souls and all the time leechin'
Dealing in debt and stealing in the name of the Lord
Mama just hung her head and said,
"Papa was a rolling stone, my son.
Wherever he laid his hat was his home.
And when he died, all he left us was alone.
"It would be wiser to leave people alone who want to be left alone"
If liberals preached and practiced that, we'd all be sooooo much better off.
If liberals preached and practiced that, we'd all be sooooo much better off.
What good is a government that keeps its laws off your body but claims the right to your thoughts, actions, and property?
How do people deceive themselves this is “freedom to choose”?
Next up for the “freedom of choice” people: no you can’t have a gun and here’s your single-payer healthcare!
How many Americans might choose to live on an island patrolled by the Navy and Coast Guard to keep others out?
While some see this as the past, others see the future.
The Jehovah Witnesses were sent by the Nazis to the concentration camps. They were the only prisoners so sentenced who could change their minds and walk out of the camps. They didn't. By all accounts, they behaved admirably with the other prisoners. There are lots of movies about the various victims of Nazi oppression, but don't hold your breath waiting for one about Jehovah Witnesses.
This story is sad for very many reasons.
It's sad that these people are neglected by the rest of the world and allowed to live out their meager lifespans in stone-age poverty. Not just allowed: enforced. Have they done a thorough poll of every inhabitant to see if they want to stay living like savages or would they maybe like to eat ice cream once in a while?
But the reason this story is MOST sad are the misanthropes who learn of it and blame the martyr.
The so-called missionaries knowingly invade a sanctuary island that is off-limits to all non-natives. The natives kill them, as is their usual, well-established practice. Are we supposed to care? Isn't this just Darwin in action? Isn't it simple justice, rough, but justice none-the-less?
Patrick did Christianize the inhabitants of Ireland. So conversion is not impossible. That said, it takes a brave man to try, and a very smart one to succeed. I am sure other will try, but doubt they will succeed.
Passing strange that there are Indian tribes in India....... If they live in complete isolation, how can they be said to have given their informed consent to living in complete isolation.......I bet if a secular humanist missionary flew over the island and dropped some glossy magazines, especially old Playboys, and some Doritos, they would think this noble savage bit wasn't such a great deal.
More to the point, William, if such secular humanist missionary did do so and was in any way successful, said missionary would be heralded as a humanitarian philanthropist by the very people laughing at the murdered Christian.
Did he get a chance to request asylum?
"Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh the harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest." John 4,35
Choosing your objectives wisely, when fulfilling the Great Commission, will yield a greater good than invading this little bitty spit of land, with all of 50 people on it. Don't they have freedom of choice? Today, there's one less missionary, and those natives are still resistant.
It appears that life in a state of nature is nasty, brutish, short and not very congenial to open borders.
Imagine if, instead of Mexicans, we had a nation of Aztecs living right on our southern border.
Sounds like a great location for an episode of 'Naked and Afraid'.
“It's sad that these people are neglected by the rest of the world and allowed to live out their meager lifespans in stone-age poverty. Not just allowed: enforced. Have they done a thorough poll of every inhabitant to see if they want to stay living like savages or would they maybe like to eat ice cream once in a while?”
Ice cream makes you happy? A meager lifespan made people unhappy? Stone-age poverty made people unhappy? Being a savage is to be unhappy?
I think seeing the majority of your children die in childhood while losing your parents and grandparents young and constantly running the risk of dying of some preventable infection or intestinal parasite might make me unhappy. I don't think I'm alone, since the goal of entire modern world is to prevent all those things from happening.
I think being raised in ignorance would make me unhappy, and apparently the modern world agrees considering how much treasure and effort is made to education our children and adults in something as trivial and ephemeral as the ability to read.
If this was a fenced compound in Montana instead of an island on the other side of the world would you be so blase about children being born into such a society and about women being forced to live under such grinding poverty?
There are people living in a way of which I don’t approve. This, of course, raises the question: “What is to be. done?” Who are we to deny the unquestioned benefits of modernism to these benighted souls? Of course, the “missionary” probably carried with him diseases to which the islanders had never been exposed, all the more reason to wipe out this last vestige of undisturbed humanity!
Considering how the above is sarcasm aimed at the busybodies of the world, I should have said “begs the question.”
said missionary would be heralded as a humanitarian philanthropist by the very people laughing at the murdered Christian.
A, No.
B, It wasn’t murder, it was suicide.
Cuba, of course, is in the opposite situation. In Cuba their navy patrols the waters around Guantanamo with snipers to shoot those trying to escape. Nobody talks about this Berlin Wall type setup though.
“I think seeing the majority of your children die in childhood while losing your parents and grandparents young and constantly running the risk of dying of some preventable infection or intestinal parasite might make me unhappy. I don't think I'm alone, since the goal of entire modern world is to prevent all those things from happening.”
Yes, those things would make us unhappy now. But you’ve replaced them with new anxieties the more primitive didn’t have. It’s my belief, based on cultural observation around the place, that the cup is always full to the same level. It seems there’s a neutral state, a zero position, we’re all born into. The happiest people I’ve seen had nothing.
I doubt the Islanders are any less happy than we are.
The man is a hero in one sense. Willing to die for something bigger then himself -- his love for his fellow man.
In another sense, he's overzealous and selling after vanity. Plenty of people he could help without dying, but he was attracted to this people for being the first.
The people who criticize him for disease or protected people miss the point.
Protected people? How inhumane is that. No government has the right to tell me that I can't speak to my brothers and sisters and make friends with them.
Unfortunately, he tried to make friends with murderous thugs. The reality of the barbarism that existed everywhere until it was westernized is made plain. The West isn't important. We grew out of the same barbaric tendencies. Seeds planted 2000 years ago took time to grow.
But I can't understand anyone sanctioning murder from a "different" culture merely because they were declared off limits by a governmental law I don't recognize.
Sorry, that's a tyrannical law. There are plenty of people who have made me sick. Plenty who have died from infectious diseases. These laws are benevolent or forward thinking. They are cowardice and short sighted.
How long would you like your children to suffer when an outside society could have helped for hundreds of years? Clearly a people that shoot first and don't even ask questions is not a benevolent society for it's members. At what point in the future do we actually allow contact with these groups? Never?
It seems to me that this island is protected by two layers of “None of our business” India’s sovereignty, and the island’s additional sovereignty granted and protected by sovereign India. So it doesn’t really matter what we think, or whether these people are living by the “One True Faith” of modernity.
It would be wiser to leave people alone who want to be left alone,
Many of us wish the Left would leave us alone.
Clearly a people that shoot first and don't even ask questions is not a benevolent society for it's members.
That makes absolutely no logical sense to me. But I know I can’t prove a negative, so maybe you can fill me in on how it does make sense?
At what point in the future do we actually allow contact with these groups? Never?
That sounds good to me. Probably impractical, but it’s nice to dream.
Unfortunately, he tried to make friends with murderous thugs.
Murderous thugs? They didn't come after him...they were merely defending their territory and way of life, which everyone has the right to do.
I just wish we here in the United States were willing to do the same thing.
In a hundred years, we will all be dead, and in a hundred years, it is likely that these islanders will all be dead. Why not let them write their lives into the book of life as they see fit?
NO! NO! NO! They must live according to our values and according to our teachings!
Unknown said: "Patrick did Christianize the inhabitants of Ireland. So conversion is not impossible."
Patrick carried a big stick. No fool.
Wanting to find less MSM-y information than the LATimes would provide, I looked up John Allen Chau and came across this bleating BBC article which explained that the naughty primitive tribesmen on Sentinel Island were giving primitive tribesmen a bad name because the primitive peaceful Piaroa don't have hierarchies (not mentioned: they fight with their jungle neighbors - over clay), and among the the primitive pygmoid negroid Bayaka each person has their own song, and each song just might be more wonderful than any other song.
The funniest part was about the Yanomamo, who have the most wonderfully diverse bacteria ever found on and in humans! Their bacteria is so diverse that there's no need to mention that they're violent as hell! And Gareth and Roland got quite confused about who had which genes when they wrote "the Yanomami villagers had unique antibiotic-resistant genes, despite the fact they had never taken the drugs before" whereas it was actually their (diverse!) bacteria which have the antibiotic-resistant genes.
How long would you like your children to suffer when an outside society could have helped for hundreds of years?
I am sympathetic to this argument. These are humans not zoo animals or research subjects. But these people have made their choice pretty clear.
Clearly a people that shoot first and don't even ask questions is not a benevolent society for it's members.
Not true. It's simply a society opposed to outside contamination.
At what point in the future do we actually allow contact with these groups? Never?
We "allow" it when they "allow" it.
But I can't understand anyone sanctioning murder from a "different" culture merely because they were declared off limits by a governmental law I don't recognize.
That’s what the bows and arrows were for, Likely spears too. That’s what the Indian navy is for. Keep your fucking viruses and bacteria and murderous ideologies off of their island.
NO! NO! NO! They must live according to our values and according to our teachings!
You've been reading the Democratic Party platform again haven't you?
It seems each side played the role they wanted to play. It's interesting for that reason.
If this was a fenced compound in Montana instead of an island on the other side of the world would you be so blase about children being born into such a society and about women being forced to live under such grinding poverty?
Why not? we're OK with it in the inner cities.
I have this notion that Vermont is our last vestige of undisturbed humanity, though I know some disturbed people inhabit the place. I may move there when in retirement, but more likely New Hampshire as long as my wife concurs that winter is still something to be enjoyed.The two states together are square shaped, with the diagonal divide made for reasons important at the time. I recall Vermont was carved from New York, however, so nobody really divided the Vermont/New Hampshire territory diagonally, it just looks like it. Hostile to missionaries I hear, though those with strange beliefs like Bernie Sanders (no relation) prosper.
We have the Maxim gun! We have the Thomson machine gun! We have the Gatling Gun! Let’s get in there and straighten these poor souls out straight away!
Here's a chart showing why the Yanomamo are better than you. Heck, even the Guahibo and Malawians are better than you.
Imagine if, instead of Mexicans, we had a nation of Aztecs living right on our southern border.
I have never understood the Mexican obsession with the Aztecs.
1) They were all wiped out by the Spanish and other Indians. There is very little Aztec blood in modern Mexicans. Instead they are descended from the Aztecs' victims.
2) The Aztec were the assholes of Meso-America, at least as bad as the NAZIs. It's like Germany was still flying the swastika.
If your plan is to come to Vermont, come down my driveway and knock on my door, and then push the Gospel on me, then please choose New Hampshire. I wouldn’t kill you, just give you the old heave ho.
Yes, BTW, I am hostile to missionaries. Not far from me is the site of an old Indian village which inexplicably died out after thousands of years of settlement within a decade of the visit from Cartier to what is now Montreal, 400 years ago. No armies were sent, just infectious disease.
Sodal ye asserts: Yes, those things would make us unhappy now. But you’ve replaced them with new anxieties the more primitive didn’t have. It’s my belief, based on cultural observation around the place, that the cup is always full to the same level. It seems there’s a neutral state, a zero position, we’re all born into. The happiest people I’ve seen had nothing.
I doubt the Islanders are any less happy than we are.
You are probably right. Civilization, as we call it, is the inevitable result of creative intelligence and is a monument to human achievement. But it does not bring happiness.
It's what happens when pearls are cast before swine.
TiV: Converting hermits is not my game. I tend to like them how and where they are — the Hermitage, right?
Only religious meetings on the schedule would be due to wife’s insistence that we attend Catholic Mass every so often, so I’ll say a prayer for the natives lost to germfare do long as you haven’t chased out all the papists.
This is the same exact thing poor Barrack Obama ran into. He just wanted to show the ignorant hillbillies there's a better way and he's lucky they didn't kill him with their stupid guns. They still would if could.
So I say leave the islanders alone because it's kind of cool that they're out there and stuff, but we need to fix the hillbillies so I don't have to be afraid if I want to go like, hiking or drive to Cali instead of fly or have woman be President or whatever.
I thought "Grizzly Man" when I read this. Extreme tourism, life on the edge, rationalized and driven by a messianic self-conception.
The diary, the chronicling all the natural beauty, kayaking in the sunset, evading the authorities.
Somebody searching for examples of Poe's Law on the internets could do worse than peruse this comment thread.
mockturtle said...
It's what happens when pearls are cast before swine.
maybe too harsh-- "forgive them for they know not..."
Consider Jim Elliot/Nate Saint, et al--
"the bood of the martyrs is the seed of the church"
I visited your blog for the first time.
This is a superb blog!
Improve Your Personality in Easy Way
Mark Steyn praised the tribe's strong immigration policy.
William, 7:29:
"By all accounts, they behaved admirably with the other prisoners."
I don't know much about that particular aspect of the Holocaust, but I think of this whenever I'm tempted to chortle at Jehovah's Witnesses - the stories I've read of their steadfastness and kindness under the worst circumstances.
Mark Steyn praised the tribe's strong immigration policy.
Beautiful! :-)
Luke 9:24: "For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it."
Reminds me of Jim and Elisabeth Elliot and the Huaorani (Auca). It is foolish to assess the actions of the Elliots or Chau from a secular or political perspective. They were not motivated by either.
When they start flagging down passing boats from their beach, let me know. But for now into the future let them remain an island, not a piece of the continent, nor a part of the main.
And if any sanctimonious prigs make the trek down my driveway and happen upon one of my parties, accept a drink or three and a cigar, but don’t push your “I know how to live and you don’t” shit on either me or my guests if they do not want to hear it.
It is foolish to assess the actions of the Elliots or Chau from a secular or political perspective.
Like I said, that’s why the natives needed arrows and spears, dense thinking like the above.
Should have gone with a caravan of migrants, then he'd have some sympathy.
Post-Thanksgiving, I could only think of:
And I don't wanna die.
Just wanna ride on my motorcy.
Cle.
Reminds me of Jim and Elisabeth Elliot and the Huaorani (Auca). It is foolish to assess the actions of the Elliots or Chau from a secular or political perspective. They were not motivated by either.
Yes, exactly. Elisabeth Elliot's account of the experience shows amazing grace.
The Mutiny on the Bounty people tried to recreate the idyllic life of the noble savage. They sailed to Pitcairn Island, burned the Bounty, and lived in peaceful harmony on an isolated island. As the men grew older, they initiated a custom of having sex with the young women as they came of age. This custom was handed down from generation to generation and became a kind of tribal custom.
They need some video games on that island.
Encounters became more fraught.
I hope they weren't "fraught with stuff".
No evidence that what they have now is superior to what would exist but for the artificial attempt to maintain the island like an exotic human zoo.
It's sad that these people are neglected by the rest of the world and allowed to live out their meager lifespans in stone-age poverty.
I bet if a secular humanist missionary flew over the island and dropped some glossy magazines, especially old Playboys, and some Doritos, they would think this noble savage bit wasn't such a great deal.
How long would you like your children to suffer when an outside society could have helped for hundreds of years?
All four of you are painfully ignorant.
We know what happens when tribes like this are brought into contact with "modernity"; their members suffer and die. For example, the Great Andamanese -- ten neighboring tribes in the same archipelago -- numbered in the thousands before contact. They now number in the dozens, dependent on handouts from the Indian government to survive and wracked with alcoholism.
The same pattern also applies to modern contacts with other Stone Age tribes elsewhere in the world -- after contact, most of the tribe dies off from disease, while the rest become a shattered people dependent on handouts, with a huge fraction of the survivors alcoholics.
The difference between advocating they be contacted in order to bring them the benefits of modern society and advocating that they be exterminated by nerve-gas bombing to empty the land for development is that the latter course of action is the more humanitarian proposal.
Yeah, okay. It's probably best to leave them alone. Still, I can help but think that our primate inheritance is magnified rather than diminished in primitive conditions, and our primate inheritance doesn't foster nobility.
Civilization marks the fall of man, according to the old cultament. Based on the unending practice of genocide, agricultural inheritance doesn't foster nobility.
Blogger Etienne said......And when he died, all he left us was alone.
Good: Better than nothing is a high bar.
Blogger tim in vermont said...
“‘It is foolish to assess the actions of the Elliots or Chau from a secular or political perspective.’
Like I said, that’s why the natives needed arrows and spears, dense thinking like the above.”
Not exactly an informed or logical response, but not unexpected either. Even cretinous perhaps.
The discovery of America depleted the native indigenous original first peoples population from 140 Million to 5 Million.
Gahrie said...
Unfortunately, he tried to make friends with murderous thugs.
Murderous thugs? They didn't come after him...they were merely defending their territory and way of life, which everyone has the right to do.
I just wish we here in the United States were willing to do the same thing.
**********************
Seeking social isolation was not a characteristic of the original Thugs, an Indian sect worshipping the goddess Kali.
Thugs would lie in wait and pounce upon travelers to rob and kill them. Or they would join groups of religious pilgrims to befriend them before killing and robbing them.
DEFINITELY not of the "I vant to be alone" mindset.
nobody really divided the Vermont/New Hampshire territory diagonally
Strictly speaking, this is correct, bc nobody created the Connecticut River.
Onward Christian soldiers, marching as to war.
The NYT dislikes anything Christian.
I wonder why they're so hung up on this story.
The Tribesmen wanted to eat at Mr. Chau's
"Not exactly an informed or logical response"
Informed by what? Christian theologians?
Perhaps you could explain the illogic?
" Even cretinous perhaps."
Reject first, ask rhetorical questions later!
How it burns in the craw of a certain kind of Christian that free men and women live!
The discovery of America depleted the native indigenous original first peoples population from 140 Million to 5 Million.
1) How do you know they're the first peoples? Maybe they're actually the second wave of immigrants who wiped out the first wave.
2) How do you know there was 140 million of them?
3) Since it was mainly the Spanish who wiped out the Indians, why do we U.S. Anglos have to take the rap?
"sex (only with) prostitues, and only when they are menstruating, and only in a deep carpet of cremated human remains."
Sounds like something redacted from the "dossier".
"Have they done a thorough poll of every inhabitant to see if they want to stay living like savages or would they maybe like to eat ice cream once in a while?"
It seems census opportunities are pretty limited there.
Let's airdrop Ben and Jerry and have them give it a shot...maybe with a special flavor in their honor.
I suppose I'm not actually surprised how few here have actually engaged with the facts of the case, or to honestly engaged with other commenters.
The straw men are burning on the beach.
Not an exact parallel, but the apostle Paul and his cohorts went beyond the limits of the Judean province of Rome. Paul lost his head in Rome. But the seed he planted there was watered by his own blood and we now have a western civilization that owes its morality and civility to Christianity. In a few more generations, I suspect China will be a Christian nation.
Mr. Chau was trespassing on the Sentinelese property/home. They had a right to defend their home/property. He had a right to try to bring them the Word, but he also knew the potential consequences. It is sad, but from the Sentinelese perspective, he was trespassing on private property (and the Indian government agrees). Now, a better option would be for the Indian government to arrest anyone who trespasses, Or the Sentinelese to arrest trespassers and prosecute them via the Indian government, but Mr. Chau did trespass.
"The straw men are burning on the beach."
Examples please.
They did try him for trespassing and carried out their sentence. It's not a sad tale, but a triumphant one. A man shows up with a dream to destroy their way of life, few have better deserved their fate.
It's sad that these people are neglected by the rest of the world and allowed to live out their meager lifespans in stone-age poverty. Not just allowed: enforced. Have they done a thorough poll of every inhabitant to see if they want to stay living like savages or would they maybe like to eat ice cream once in a while?
If they never had ice cream, they don't miss it. Plenty of people in the world know of ice cream but cannot afford it.
I suppose these islanders also do not worry about having a 4k 82 inch tv, a nice corvette or mercedes,oe even a reliable used car a faster internet, cheaper gasoline or other modern stuff.
Not knowing of modern medicines, I suppose they do not long for them either.
Anyway, there is a documentary about a guy going to Amazon and living with a tribe. Takes a wife, brings her to civilization, has kids, etc. She abandons the civilized family and lifestyle and goes back to the jungle. She had the ice cream and the cars and the warm house.
Hubby begs, threatens, does everything he can to get her back. No dice.
Kid grows up and goes to jungle to find mom.
Here is a link his story.
https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-23758087
Full Moon make a great case for us all just throwing aside civilization and all it involves. Let's just do it!
Yes, p.a. avoid specific arguments, that way you still have a slight chance of not looking like a complete idiot.
It's fine, I don't blame you, I don't see any errors in my comments either. Better to try the gambit of utter vagueness.
The islanders don't know they are being protected from the outside world. Their hostile approach to outsiders is taken as a desire to left alone.
Whenever a UFO is detected the military scrambles fighter jets. Suppose our Earth is being protected by the galactic equivalent of the Indian Navy from alien religious missionaries and little, green foodies who would offer us new and wonderful frozen dessert alternatives.
Or maybe, failing that, you could simply define straw man? You keep using that word, and I don't think that you know what it means.
etbass said...
Full Moon make a great case for us all just throwing aside civilization and all it involves. Let's just do it!
11/24/18, 2:30 PM
Some people do that, don't they?
What do the islanders worry about?
Food, shelter.
Doubt they worry about illness or death. Probably accept it as part of life.
The documentary showed the tribesmen using handmade bow and arrow. Guy shoots a three foot arrow way up through foliage into the tree and kills a scrambling monkey for his dinner. I had it on vid for awhile and would lead mybow-hunting friends into a conversation about their bow hunting skills, then run the tape of the pygmy and the monkey.
Pretty dang funny. Compound bows with sights and aluminum razor tips no match for a twig arrow with a sharpened rock for a tip.
On the other hand, natives don't have convenience of a nice camp stove and battery operated lights.
Blogger pious agnostic said...
I suppose I'm not actually surprised how few here have actually engaged with the facts of the case, or to honestly engaged with other commenters.
The straw men are burning on the beach.
You got that wrong. The facts are that the x-tian straw man was full of arrows and dragged on beach, not burned.
Well, I used "straw man" once. (Twice now.) You've used is several times. OK, here goes.
The fellow went to the island and was killed on the beach. For the time being, imagine that his motives for going there are immaterial. All we know is he arrives, and is killed by rabid xenophobes.
This is the facts of what happened, and you seem to think that's terrific. In fact, I've seen is celebrated as the right thing to have happen.
Now, the guy didn't go there with a gun to kill people. He went there to spread the Gospel. This was his purpose.
He wasn't going there to inoculate them against diseases. (How do you feel about anti-vaxxers by the way? Never mind, that's a tangent.) He wasn't going there to build condos or sell them Levis or to buy their land or displace them.
So, there's the straw man I'm talking about. You have set him up as the equivalent of 15th Century explorers who knew no more about germ theory than those people on the island, when he's the product of the modern world. You've set up all these potential evils, as if the islanders know about immunology and germ theory, and that's what you are railing against, instead of the facts of the case.
He was going to spread the Gospel. To make contact with them. Maybe make friends with people who are so utterly alone in the world that they make war against everyone else. And to share with them his Gospel. He was one man. He wasn't there to change their lives by force. Hell, he might not even have been able to speak their language.
I'm not going to lie, I think he was pretty dumb. But I respect his motives, even if I think he was an idiot. He was a fool for Christ. I can respect that, even if I think he shouldn't have done it.
And apparently you don't respect his motives, and you aren't required to. But if you think it's funny what happened to him, or what he had coming, or if you think this should definitely have happened to him because you've had your afternoon interrupted once or twice by Jehovah's Witnesses, then I stand by my original characterization: you're a misanthrope.
You don't care about any of those islanders except to use them in your war against Christians. GFY.
Why are you writing about this again? The guy is obviously mentally ill; religiosity is a typical hallmark of mental illness. He's trying to kill off a tribe that succumbs 90% to influenza and measles when contacted so that he can Christianize them. What impressive immorality and stupidity. Well, seems like they saved themselves instead. As for this doofus Chau, he also seems to have been saved - in the only way that mattered to him, so all is good.
What a schmuck. Are you ever going to report on why it is that uncontested tribes are right to prevent their being killed off by "civilized" people's diseases? I guess one religious nutter's death matters more to you than the 40 or so of their own that would be at stake if he'd "succeeded" in what he was doing. That's some pretty poor ethics on your part. At least they could plunk down a monitor and beam the word of the gospel to them instead. That way it would have the advantage of being both similar to 2001, A Space Odyssey and as mind-numbing, propagandistic and hypnotic as these evangelical nutters' minds tend to prefer things anyway.
The guy would preach all the wonders of his beliefs, then have eternal pain and suffering in Hell as punishment hanging over their heads if they did not behave the way he believed they should.
He wasn't going there to build condos or sell them Levis or to buy their land or displace them.
No, that comes later.
And the fact that he was a Christian does not figure into my thinking in even the tiniest fashion. I would feel the same way, Christian, Commie, militant atheist, Amway salesman, what have you. He knew the rules and went to great lengths to violate them. So your bringing Christianity into it as a particular motivation of mine is as clear a straw man as I have seen on this thread.
Maybe make friends with people who are so utterly alone in the world that they make war against everyone else.”
Alone by whose criteria? Something tells me they would dispute your characterization.
Suppose our Earth is being protected by the galactic equivalent of the Indian Navy from alien religious missionaries and little, green foodies who would offer us new and wonderful frozen dessert alternatives.
That's our sad fate until we develop warp drive.
Still it beats the other Sci Fi meme...we're isolated because the rest of the galaxy is afraid of us.
Howard said...
The discovery of America depleted the native indigenous original first peoples population from 140 Million to 5 Million.
**************************************
Not bloody likely, given that the global population circa 1500 was a little over 100 million.
http://www.worldometers.info/world-population/
Scroll down to see the graph.
New World estimates are all over the place, because "Given the fragmentary nature of the evidence, even semi-accurate pre-Columbian population figures are impossible to obtain."
"Historian David Henige has argued that many population figures are the result of arbitrary formulas selectively applied to numbers from unreliable historical sources. He believes this is a weakness unrecognized by several contributors to the field, and insists there is not sufficient evidence to produce population numbers that have any real meaning. He characterizes the modern trend of high estimates as "pseudo-scientific number-crunching." Henige does not advocate a low population estimate, but argues that the scanty and unreliable nature of the evidence renders broad estimates inevitably suspect, saying "high counters" (as he calls them) have been particularly flagrant in their misuse of sources.[14] Many population studies acknowledge the inherent difficulties in producing reliable statistics, given the scarcity of hard data.[citation needed]"
"According to Noble David Cook, a community of scholars have recently, albeit slowly, "been quietly accumulating piece by piece data on early epidemics in the Americas and their relation to subjugation of native peoples." They now believe that widespread epidemic disease, to which the natives had no prior exposure or resistance, was the primary cause of the massive population decline of the Native Americans."
---Wikipedia.
Howard, is your last name Zinn, by any chance?
I'm not into human zoos. Meet the people. Then let them decide how to live. Treat them like fellow men, not animals.
Why did
a little kid
have to shoot at me today,
--have to shoot me dead?
The arrow, his choice,
and his high-pitched voice
Still lingers in my head.
I'm not into human zoos. Meet the people. Then let them decide how to live. Treat them like fellow men, not animals.
Why don't we start by allowing them control over their own borders and entry through them, including the kind that typically results in 90% deaths when post-neolithic humans expose uncontacted tribes to the common influenza, measles and bacterial pneumonia strains to which they'd never had an opportunity to develop strong immune reactions?
How this fact evades any discussion or comment on the situation completely astonishes me. In what other context do people casually ignore a 90% death rate from contact when suggesting how to deal with people?
I saw an interesting video yesterday on the history of the Plymouth colony. The tribe that allied with the Puritans did what it could following the decimation of the local tribes after a plague swept down from Maine and incentivized its competitors/enemies to form an alliance to wipe them out. I don't know if there were accurate pre- and post-demographic analyses, but empty villages were common. Often the mortality rates were so great that none were left to tend to the dead; the last ones went unburied.
Eventually the knowledge of these effects must have become known to the Euros.
If you want a more recent example - one that should be accompanied by more thoroughly resourced numbers, other Andaman tribes were contacted in the late 19th century and their declines were as precipitous.
Sorry, late 18th century.
@pious agnostic - it’s foolish to believe the only way you can ruin people’s lives is with a gun. Do-gooders from NGOs cause damage all over the place. And for an agnostic, you appear to be particularly respectful to his nominal Christian intentions. I think the little asshole wanted an exotic scalp for Christ, followed by a lifetime lecture tour celebrating his achievement. Note also, the tribe didn’t butcher him straight off - but gave plenty of warning of their lack of interest before dispensing with the spiritual marauder.
Tim in Vermont wrote: “Informed by what? Christian theologians? Perhaps you could explain the illogic?”
It is evidently to much of a stretch for you to understand that Christian precepts offer more insight into Chau’s behavior than your secular or political predilections.
As for the illogic: Spears and arrows were unnecessary for the Sentinelese to defend themselves from an unarmed Chau or from thinking like mine, which only seems dense to the cretinous.
Tim also wrote: “How it burns in the craw of a certain kind of Christian that free men and women live!” Secularists, pagans and atheists have enslaved and murdered far more people than Christians. You are evidently as ignorant of history as of Christianity.
How interesting to learn from PPPT and others here that the Sentinelese were protecting themselves from extinction by epidemic - knowledge of which they undoubtedly gleaned from the Internet or the local library. LOL.
Oso Negro wrote: “And for an agnostic, you appear to be particularly respectful to his nominal Christian intentions.”
That’s right! Page 12 of the O.N. Rules For Agnostics specifies that pious agnostic should have disparaged Chau’s motives, dissed him thoroughly then danced on his grave, if possible.
It is evidently to much of a stretch for you to understand that Christian precepts offer more insight into Chau’s behavior than your secular or political predilections.
Undoubtedly, but believe it or don’t, Christianity does not have some exclusive monopoly on defining the rights of man.
As for the illogic: Spears and arrows were unnecessary for the Sentinelese to defend themselves from an unarmed Chau or from thinking like mine, which only seems dense to the cretinous.
Sometimes people just refuse to shut up and leave people who clearly don’t want them around alone. Sometimes people just refuse to listen to reason.
How interesting to learn from PPPT and others here that the Sentinelese were protecting themselves from extinction by epidemic - knowledge of which they undoubtedly gleaned from the Internet or the local library. LOL.
Straw man. The point is that indigenous people have a right to be left alone and throughout history, there are legions of cases where it would have been better for them had they managed to kill interlopers like this guy who were bent on destroying their way of life.
Eventually the knowledge of these effects must have become known to the Euros.
It’s pretty well documented that the settlers believed that God was clearing the land for them.
I read a lot of colonial era and 19th century writings of various kinds for my degree, and clearly Americans knew about these die offs and believed that God was on their side. The French desired a "great harvest" of souls for Heaven, but as far as I can tell, achieved only a great harvest of premature death among the Indians. The Spanish, while more mercenary in general, also had similar motivations too.
If God were with them in their missionary endeavors, and they didn’t know anything about infectious disease, surely God was somehow dimly aware of what was likely to happen?
Noah's Ark?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6424407/Every-person-spawned-single-pair-adults-living-200-000-years-ago-scientists-claim.html
Christianity contains both the Old, Wrathful God and the New Covenant, which BTW is redemption for sins, not “don’t commit sins”. The don’t commit sins stuff is Old Testanent. Jesus *preached* to turn the other cheek but also beat the Moneychangers.
Hope this brave missionary for Christ stays safe against these savages.
Savages?! Racist!
Well what are people attempting to slow the influx of people coming to our land with weapons if necessary? Savages, right?
Not welcoming someone who wants to change your culture is racist. Missionaries MUST be welcomed.
Tim again (6:36): "Christianity does not have some exclusive monopoly on defining the rights of man."
Is that what Christians believe? Who knew? (Besides Tim, of course).
"Sometimes people just refuse to listen to reason."
The obvious remedy in Timworld being spears and arrows. Shield up, Timmy!
"Straw man. The point is that indigenous people have a right to be left alone and throughout history, there are legions of cases where it would have been better for them had they managed to kill interlopers like this guy who were bent on destroying their way of life."
A. A direct response to a point raised is not a straw man. School yourself. B. Who created the "right to be left alone? C. "... legions of cases ...." So what? D. Giving them gifts and introducing them to Jesus does not equate with "bent on destroying their way of life" except in the minds of anti-Christian bigots.
Here's the point, Tim, Chau assumed the risk and was killed. There is no evidence that his intentions were evil. The response of decent, civilized people might be, at worst, "Oh. Too bad. His family and friends will be devasted, but he should have known better."
Sorry your bigotry impelled you to jump for joy.
There is no evidence that his intentions were evil.
Sure. It is entirely possible that he was such an ignorant idiot that he didn't know that successfully converting them would lead to their annihilation, rather than a religious fanatic who thought their physical annihilation was an acceptable price for saving their souls.
Similarly, it's quite likely that the islanders acted from malice, rather than from a careful understanding that killing him was necessary to save themselves from annihilation.
But, whatever the intentions on each side, the best possible outcome from a humanitarian viewpoint (rather than a saving-their-souls one) is that he was killed, rather than allowed to pursue a course of action that would have annihilated the islanders.
(To anyone who suggests converting them wouldn't lead to their annihilation, please let me know what form of Christianity supports the islanders using lethal force on outsiders simply trying to make peaceful contact, and whether Chau would have converted them to such a version. Because only such a version of Christianity is compatible with the islanders not being annihilated.)
”Giving them gifts and introducing them to Jesus does not equate with "bent on destroying their way of life" except in the minds of anti-Christian bigots.”
Ya gotta love that phrase, “introducing them to Jesus.”
Steven wrote: “To anyone who suggests converting them wouldn't lead to their annihilation, please let me know....”
It’s probably too late in the post, but please provide information about any society that has been annihilated merely by its “conversion” to Christianity.
BTW, assuming their souls could be saved in the Christian sense, what would be an acceptable price (from their perspective, of course)?
hombre --
The only thing keeping these people from the sad fate of their neighbors, the ten tribes of the Great Andamanese, is their hostility to contact. So, tell me what version of Christianity supports killing peaceful visitors, and I'll back down from my assertion that successfully converting them would cause them to tolerate the contact that will annihilate them.
And, "BTW", I'm not going to play along with the idea that they all are damned in their current state and need to be converted to save their souls. Evidence-free propositions can be used to justify any horrors.
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