October 11, 2018

What if your child's teacher thought this about your son: "He was a loner and isolated and off by himself all the time"?

Teachers want us to believe that they love children and care for and support them. They have — through the compulsion of the state — the opportunity to observe them and interact with them for long hours and many days in their formative years. To trust teachers in that role, we need to believe that if they saw that our child was a loner and isolated and off by himself all the time, their heart would go out to our poor little child, and they'd talk with us and try to help. Or maybe we would wonder whether the teacher understands psychological diversity. Why is she tagging our child as "a loner" rather than appreciating the introvert or trying to figure out if there's some unseen burden making the child withdrawn? The teacher shouldn't be like another one of the children, who decide that a kid is a weirdo and shun him. But imagine a teacher who remembers the children she thought about as a weirdo, waited decades, and when that fellow human being achieved some success in his adult life, she wrote a newspaper column to tell the world "He was a loner and isolated and off by himself all the time."

This is Nikki Fiske, Stephen Miller's Third-Grade Teacher. Stephen Miller is a Trump political adviser. Maybe Nikki Fiske was lured into "writing" this article. I put "writing" in quotes because the byline is "Nikki Fiske, as told to Benjamin Svetkey." I hope she's dreadfully sorry at her terrible breach of a teacher's moral responsibility toward a child. I was a teacher for more than 30 years, and my students were all adults, but I have never — in all the tens of thousands of blog posts I've dashed off and published impulsively — even considered naming one of my students and saying something negative I thought I observed about their personality.

I googled the line "He was a loner and isolated and off by himself all the time" and not everything that came up was about Nikki Fiske and Stephen Miller. There was also:

1. "The Badass Personalities of People Who Like Being Alone/Four studies shatter stereotypes of people who like to be alone" by Bella DePaulo (Psychology Today).
True loners are people who embrace their alone time.... If our stereotypes about people who like being alone were true, then we should find that they are neurotic and closed-minded. In fact, just the opposite is true: People who like spending time alone, and who are unafraid of being single, are especially unlikely to be neurotic. They are not the tense, moody, worrying types.
2. "The Lethality of Loneliness/We now know how it can ravage our body and brain" by Judith Shulevitz (New Republic).
“Real loneliness”... is not what the philosopher Søren Kierkegaard characterized as the “shut-upness” and solitariness of the civilized. Nor is “real loneliness” the happy solitude of the productive artist or the passing irritation of being cooped up with the flu while all your friends go off on some adventure. It’s not being dissatisfied with your companion of the moment—your friend or lover or even spouse— unless you chronically find yourself in that situation, in which case you may in fact be a lonely person.... Loneliness... is the want of intimacy.
3. "The Virtues of Isolation/Under the right circumstances, choosing to spend time alone can be a huge psychological boon" by Brent Crane (The Atlantic):
And even though many great thinkers have championed the intellectual and spiritual benefits of solitude–Lao Tzu, Moses, Nietzsche, Emerson, Woolf (“How much better is silence; the coffee cup, the table”)– many modern humans seem hell-bent on avoiding it....

Generally, [Matthew Bowker, a psychoanalytic political theorist] contends that our “mistrust of solitude” has consequences. For one, “we’ve become a more groupish society,” he says.... “We’re drawn to identity-markers and to groups that help us define [ourselves]. In the simplest terms, this means using others to fill out our identities, rather than relying on something internal, something that comes from within,” Bowker says. “Separating from the group, I would argue, is one thing that universities should be facilitating more.”
4. "Why do some people become loners? What type of people become loners? What are the advantages of being a loner?" by Anonymous (Quora):
I don’t really have any big hopes for future. At least I am glad I live in North America where loners are somewhat accepted by the society. I used to blame my parents a lot for being this way. I used to be very angry, especially at my father. There is a saying “You become like the people you resent to”. I think it’s happening. My father is a loner too. The difference is that he belongs to a different generation. He was able to build a family and his own family is big. He is a loner at heart who never had a chance of actually becoming one. Now he is in his 60s and my mother complains that he has no friends to spend time with so he is bored all the time.
5. "Depression is a disease of loneliness/A lack of friends can suck someone into solitude – sharing the language of affection could help to ease the pain" by Andrew Solomon (The Guardian):
It would be arrogant for people with friends to pity those without. Some friendless people may be close to their parents or children rather than to extrafamilial friends, or they may be more interested in things or ideas than in other people....

Many people, however, are desperate for love, but don’t know how to go about finding it, disabled by depression’s tidal pull toward seclusion....

For some, friendship has become a vocabulary as obscure as Sanskrit. Lack of emotional fluency may cause depression; it may exacerbate it; it may cast a shadow over recovery. But there are ways to help people who want friendships to learn the language of affection. Parents and schools can teach children productive ways to engage....

293 comments:

«Oldest   ‹Older   201 – 293 of 293
James K said...

So she remembered doing stuff like that with me 40 years earlier.

Fair enough, so it's possible. Was this a public school with ~30 kids/class?

johns said...


"the most basic concepts just bounce off of their foreheads like nerf balls."--Dust Bunny Queen.

LOL. Gotta remember that one.

Fernandinande said...

The only times I see parents is at IEPs and graduation.

They want to be informed every day of grades and assignments

It sounds like the problem with humanity is all those pesky people, never doing exactly what I wish they'd do. Not sharks.

tim in vermont said...

Remember the good old days when What happens in third grade, stays in third grade? That's before one of our two major parties abandoned civility "until they win..." Then they will give it back, as long as we don't get too upity.

n.n said...

Sojourner is a migrant, a temporary resident or someone in passing.

The Canaanites were a community of social liberals who with an extreme prejudice violated moral standards of human rights in their progressive depravity.

Fernandinande said...

I remember my 3rd grade teacher taking me on lots of long trips, but I always found my way back. Back to the glue.

n.n said...

First, they came for the lonely. Then, they came for the nose pickers. A modern history of Chinese society.

Jupiter said...

Gahrie said...

"There is a lot of poor teaching and indoctrination going on in our schools, but they get away with it because an awful lot of parents just see school as daycare centers."

On the theory that you are what you are paid for being, schools are daycare centers. Try telling the local parents that you have decided you can teach just as much in half the time (Which is undoubtedly true, almost all time spent in K-12 schools is wasted), and see how they feel about having their darlings at home on Tuesdays and Thursdays.

Fernandinande said...

Back To The Gluture.

n.n said...

re: A modern history of Chinese society.

To be fair, Western civilization is also uncomfortable with the lonely, and frowns upon the nose pickers. Especially when the behavior persists beyond first grade.

Molly said...

So many of these anti-Trump people are awful awful people. Let me know when someone on the left condemns this person.

Sebastian said...

"How could Nikki Finke thinks this was okay?"

Inching dangerously close to the old faux-surprise "I can't believe x said y" shtick, blessedly absent from recent posts.

Actually, why would a prog teacher not think it was okay to vilify a Trump ally, the better to combat the forces of evil?

This is not about teachers and loners. There's a war going on. This is just one maneuver, showing that the left will use any means necessary. They have no standards, they respect no norms, they will attack anyone and anything. This is who they are, this is what they do. How-could questions are a form of denial.

Fernandinande said...

@Jupiter -
"It's absolutely true that school makes people show up, sit down, shut up and that these are useful skills for people to have in adulthood," says Bryan Caplan, a professor of economics at George Mason University, a blogger at EconLog, and the author of the new book The Case Against Education: Why the Education System Is a Waste of Time and Money.

Mike (MJB Wolf) said...

Private schools would flourish if given half the same access to public money as state schools have. For what the average district gets in ADA here, I could pay a few instructors the huge salaries a GOOD teacher deserves. Market and parent choice forces are moving us toward this model. As the Bronx Academies proved, even the lowest performing district can gain from focused disciplined instruction. The discipline public schools have given up chasing the chimera of race-neutral outcomes has caused flight of the brightest to home-schooling or parochial schools. Governor Scott's race is largely about who has the better vision for WI schools. It is becoming a top issue and the pressure is building among private and public visionaries to "solve" the education crisis before the one-size-fits-all federalization kills the curiosity of an entire generation of tiny scholars stuck in a crap system.

Michael K said...


The only times I see parents is at IEPs and graduation.

They want to be informed every day of grades and assignments


My older son was not doing well in high school. I did not think he was telling me about his assignments.

I found out that kids on probation had to get a form every Friday morning and take it to all their teachers who would record the homework and what had been done. I got the school to give him one and told him I wanted to see it every Friday.

Several teachers refused to complete their part. They didn't give a shit.

He eventually became a trial lawyer, showing how damaging that can be. He is also a Gavin Newsom supporter, even worse.

Char Char Binks, Esq. said...

"I don't get to chose my kids. I have to teach whoever shows up at my door. This includes the homeless kid... [and so on, ad nauseam]"


I wish I had that many excuses for not doing my job. I'd never have to do ANYTHING!

Michelle Dulak Thomson said...

Ignorance Is Bliss,

At least in our school district, pay is spread out over 12 months. What that means in practice is that you get three months' pay at the end of June, and have to make it last until October. The obvious temptation when you get a big lump-sum payment like that is to run out and spend a bunch of it. But for those poor at budgeting, it beats nine months of pay and three months of nothing.

Rocketeer said...

They want to be informed every day of grades and assignments

Huh. That's odd. Just yesterday, I was told teachers wanted parents that were engaged in their childrens' education. Today, I'm told that parent engagement makes them insufferable.

eddie willers said...

The Hollywood Reporter isn't the NYTimes but this "story" is getting plenty of mainstream airplay. Ridiculous!

The Hollywood Reporter just recently dropped thier comment section.

They can now go as low as they wish and not be challenged.

Known Unknown said...

"How could Nikki Finke thinks this was okay?"

Deadline: Hollywood did nothing wrong!

I can see the name confusion. Nikki Fiske is the crummy teacher ratting out an 8-year-old in The Hollywood Reporter. Nikki Finke runs Deadline: Hollywood. I do not think she ever crossed paths with 8-year-old Stephen Miller.

Known Unknown said...

"They want to be informed every day of grades and assignments"

Technology has this covered via platforms like Schoology and Powerschool.

Fernandinande said...

Mike said As the Bronx Academies proved, even the lowest performing district can gain from focused disciplined instruction.

Oh, do tell!

Great Schools' unedited list:

3/10 Below average
Bronx Academy Of Letters

3/10 Below average
South Bronx Academy For Applied Media

4/10 Below average
West Bronx Academy For The Future

3/10 Below average
Bronx Academy Of Health Careers

3/10 Below average
East Bronx Academy For The Future

4/10 Below average
Bronx Academy For Software Engineering

HEY!! LOOKIT THIS ONE!

7/10 Above average
Bronx Academy Of Promise Charter School

3/10 Below average
Bronx Writing Academy

2/10 Below average
Bronx Collegiate Academy

3/10
Below average
The Bronx Preparatory Academy

...etc...there are a few that don't suck.

Char Char Binks, Esq. said...

"free speech draws attacks from the most unexpcted of places"

Really? You think calling out a teacher for violating the trust of parents, and the rights of a boy who had no choice in attending her class, an attack on free speech?

"The Autobiogrphy of John Stuart Mill. Learn about what a child is capable of learning."

I read that. It shows the remarkable results a true education done right can garner. Also, homeschooling is the only way to make sure that YOU RAISE YOUR OWN CHILDREN.

Chuck said...

Who else thinks that the next step in this story will be an investigation by the Santa Monica-Malibu Unified School District? Followed by some meaningless sanction imposed on this teacher (who may be very close to retirement age)? Followed by a vigorous defense by the local teachers union and the California Teachers Association? Followed by all manner of California political wallowing by ever Democrat beholden to those unions (meaning, all of them)? From the AG Javier Becerra on down...

Jim at said...

It's probably been mentioned but:

we didn't have glue sticks in those days

They had glue sticks in 1993. They had glue sticks long before 1993.

I know these leftist bitches lie like a rug, but why don't they even try to make their lies believable? Or at least not so easily debunked?

Robert Cook said...

"It's a shame it's not possible to earn money in one month, but not spend it until a later month. Such money could be hidden under your mattress. Maybe someone could even come up with a financial institution that could hold on to your money until you need it.

I know, crazy talk...."



Believe it or not, there are many people employed full time who do not make enough money to pay all their bills each month and have extra left over to put into savings. In fact, many working people are only two or three paychecks away from financial ruin, (if they were to lose their jobs).

I don't know this woman's personal affairs well enough to know what her family expenses are, so I do not presume to know what she is doing wrong or how she could make up for three months of no income coming in.

gahrie said...

I wish I had that many excuses for not doing my job. I'd never have to do ANYTHING!

Then go back to school and get your teaching credential. Since teaching is so easy and all we teachers suck, you should have no trouble at all getting hired and being teacher of the year immediately.

Everyone thinks they're a fucking expert on teaching because they went to high school. Guess what? you're not.

Achilles said...

The connection everyone is missing is that the current violence and thuggery evinced in public by democrats has been going on for decades on college campuses and in public schools.

Leftist teachers have been teaching kids this is how you act vs. people you disagree with.

For decades.

This is the core of the democrat party now. They are violent amoral thugs.

True liberals are leaving the democrat party.

The only people left are statists.

Michael K said...

In fact, many working people are only two or three paychecks away from financial ruin, (if they were to lose their jobs).

Fortunately, Trump was elected and many more are now finding jobs or even getting raises. Isn't that terrific Cookie?

Dust Bunny Queen said...

EBelieve it or not, there are many people employed full time who do not make enough money to pay all their bills each month and have extra left over to put into savings. In fact, many working people are only two or three paychecks away from financial ruin, (if they were to lose their jobs).

Yes. There are many people who are working in marginal jobs and are living on the edge. I've been there and done that too.

Boo hoo.... for the teachers who can't figure out finances. Try being self employed where you don't know from day to day if you will have a job or not. Seasonal work as well. Lots of jobs in the spring, summer, fall and zippo in the winter. Regular paycheck? hahahahaha....

You know what we do? BUDGET! Plan ahead. Buy only what we need and put the rest into the business. Build up the savings in the fat months and live on the savings in the lean months. (hmmm seems like I remember something about this concept in the Bible).

At least the teachers have health insurance, life insurance and a nice fat 403B plan funded and paid for by the TAX PAYERS. Self employed?? On your own. No insurance. No savings other than what we ourselves can budget. Vacations? Paid days off? What are those?

So...cry me a fucking river.

Not Sure said...

She'd have definitely told us if Miller ever played doctor with any of the 3rd grade girls, so this article is a net plus for him.

Robert Cook said...

"The only reason for an adult to run their lawn care service as a cash business is to avoid bank records. Is he doing it to cheat on his taxes, or to pay his workers under the table? Just wondering."

His only employee is his younger son, who lives at home while attending college in town.

When I say "cash business," I don't mean he only accepts cash for payment; I believe most of his clients pay by check. I mean that he gets paid per job, daily. He isn't waiting for a paycheck every week or every two weeks, but gets paid daily. He may have some clients who pay him once a month for weekly or biweekly service. I think each client has his or her own payment arrangement.

Fernandinande said...

Try being self employed

I tried that but my boss was a total asshole. Self-unemployed is better.

Henry said...

Blogger Chuck said...
Who else thinks that the next step in this story will be an investigation by the Santa Monica-Malibu Unified School District? Followed by some meaningless sanction imposed on this teacher (who may be very close to retirement age)?

Ms. Finke is actually reporting an ethical violation by the principle. If there is any investigation, it would be into him.

But I do have this image in my head, not of some kind of teacher activist, but of a doddering old lady prompted by an activist whippersnapper.

I could be wrong.

Achilles said...

gahrie said...
I wish I had that many excuses for not doing my job. I'd never have to do ANYTHING!

Then go back to school and get your teaching credential. Since teaching is so easy and all we teachers suck, you should have no trouble at all getting hired and being teacher of the year immediately.

Everyone thinks they're a fucking expert on teaching because they went to high school. Guess what? you're not.


Before I joined the army with my wife she was a school teacher. I went back to school with her to be a teacher with her.

I have always enjoyed teaching and have taught classes in several topics.

I completed all of the courses and was paired up with 2 teachers for student teaching. 1 was a male with decades of teaching experience. The other was a female who was a few years in and working on her masters.

She literally separated the students into good students and bad students. She told me exactly who they were.

She got angry when I tried to work with the "bad" students.

In the end she torpedoed the entire quarter. The other teacher and my counselor were embarrassed. My counselor had my next placement lined up.

I did not go back. That was not the only time in the teachers ed program I faced pure hostility and hate. I was called a misogynist and a racist openly in class by two different instructors and several students.

My asian wife was with me.

There is a moral and cultural rot in the educational institutions.

The public education system needs to be pulled out by the roots.

At a minimum I as a parent should have a choice whether to participate or not.

Robert Cook said...

"So...cry me a fucking river."

No one's crying for this woman. My point in bringing her up was to refute the belief held by many that public school teachers are paid exorbitant salaries, living affluent lives and taking it easy "on vacation" for three months a year.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Try being self employed

I tried that but my boss was a total asshole. Self-unemployed is better.

I know!!!! My husband keeps complaining about that asshole cheap bastard/company he works for and requesting a raise in his monthly paycheck. (We do a real paycheck with SS, FICA etc for more tax write offs for the business. And to keep the IRS off of our backs for not running the Corp like a real business we have to pay a 'reasonable' salary)

Since I am the CFO of the company I tell him he needs to butter up the financial division and maybe take her out to dinner or a night on the town and then....we will see /wink

FullMoon said...

n.n said...

She betrayed a confidence. We assume there is a teacher-student confidentiality.
10/11/18, 12:37 PM


I am beginning to wonder if this was an off hand lie to her reporter friend in casual conversation. She gonna get much un intended attention today.

chuck said...

My kindergarten teacher thought I lacked the proper playful spirit because I was always asking if things were true. And she was right, I've never fully compensated for that personality defect.

FullMoon said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Henry said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Henry said...

Average Starting Teacher Salary by State

Median Salary by state varies from the 40K to 80K

Even with a great benefits package and the possibility of Summer employment, 70K in high-cost-of-living states is not a lavish salary for a white collar professional.

The median salary for all teachers across the united states is about $55K. Compare this to median salary for a technical writer of 70K and median salary of over 100K for software engineers, and well over $120K in the states with the better teacher salaries.

Robert Cook said...

"'In fact, many working people are only two or three paychecks away from financial ruin, (if they were to lose their jobs).'

"Fortunately, Trump was elected and many more are now finding jobs or even getting raises. Isn't that terrific Cookie?"


I don't know. Is it true? I hear claims of booming employment, but what are the specifics? How are these stats being obtained? Are they just extrapolating from reduced unemployment claims--no proof of increased employment in and of itself--or do they actually have hard numbers? What kind of new jobs are being created? Well paying, permanent jobs with benefits? Seasonal work? Temp work? Contract work? Part-time work? What kind of pay? How do you know they're getting raises? How many? How much?

gahrie said...

At a minimum I as a parent should have a choice whether to participate or not.

You do. Homeschooling is legal. You just have to prove that you are actually educating your kids.

As I said above I support vouchers, charters and parental choice. Public schools must be one of the choices.

Henry said...

Median salary for dental hygienist is about $70K.

Guildofcannonballs said...

Dick Proenneke spent his first summer in the Twin Lakes region scouting out the best cabin site and cutting logs. He returned the next summer to build his cabin, stayed through that winter and the next summer before he returned to Iowa for the winter. Dick hadn't planned on returning to Twin Lakes, but he changed his mind and returned the next spring and remained at Twin Lakes for 30 years, leaving only occasionally to visit his family.

- http://www.aloneinthewilderness.com/living_in_alaska.html

Darrell said...

Cookie wants the facts, Just the facts. Commies are like that--yes they are!

FullMoon said...

Blogger Henry said...

Average Starting Teacher Salary by State

Median Salary by state varies from the 40K to 80K

Even with a great benefits package and the possibility of Summer employment, 70K in high-cost-of-living states is not a lavish salary for a white collar professional.

The median salary for all teachers across the united states is about $55K. Compare this to median salary for a technical writer of 70K and median salary of over 100K for software engineers, and well over $120K in the states with the better teacher salaries.

10/11/18, 1:59 PM


Always been that way. Makes you wonder why they choose the profession. Guess it is not because of the pay. What else could be the motivation?

James K said...

Cookie wants the facts, Just the facts. Commies are like that--yes they are!

Actually he wants to question facts that disagree with his world view. But the unemployment/jobs data are collected the same way they've been collected for decades. They're not "extrapolated from unemployment claims." Huge surveys are done every month of households and businesses. Not saying they are perfect measurements, but they're measured consistently.

President-Mom-Jeans said...

"She gonna get much un intended attention today."

That James Brown impersonator from California says we should get in her face and not let her eat at restaurants, gas stations, or anywhere in public. Hopefully her school is getting inundated with calls, everyone with any relation to her ever is getting social media contacts and calls, and every single thing she has ever done is put under a microscope and dissected in public.

These are the new rules, and now they are going to get applied to this awful old shrew.

War.

n.n said...

She gonna get much un intended attention today.

We should monitor GoFundMe returns for projected secular incentives. Also, think tanks and other set asides for smoothing transitions.

n.n said...

Try being self employed. I tried that but my boss was a total asshole.

Inside joke.

Rick said...

Compare this to median salary for a technical writer of 70K and median salary of over 100K for software engineers, and well over $120K in the states with the better teacher salaries.

Why? Teachers are not comparable to those with technical skills.

Also notice the comparison is specifically to salaries omitting their outsized pension and medical benefits. This is both highly misleading and completely predictable. As someone upthread noted the plan is to push the comp to benefits and then complain salaries are too low.

Propaganda 101.

Ken B said...

James K
Yes it was. I think our class size that year was about 36. We found the contacts for over 30 to invite.
In fact the principle showed up. He not only remembered me, he knew who my son was (he used to walk to high school past the guys house!).

alan markus said...

@ Robert Cook; How are these stats being obtained? If 25 or more employees, quarterly reports are submitted over the internet, if less than 25 employees, by paper

On a quarterly basis: Each employer is required to furnish a report containing wage data for every employee paid in the calendar quarter. Each wage detail must include the employee's social security number, first and last name, and total gross wages PAID during the quarter.

And if it is a new hire, that is reported.

Won't get into specifics here, but computers are used to aggregate and analyze the data. Can compare specific employees current wages against past wages (based on name & SS#). When an employee shows up as a new hire, can tell how much they are earning. Lots of things that they can analyze - it's computers all the way down.


Joe said...

Last year, I scanned just about all my older documents to make moving easier. While scanning my report cards, I was again struck by how much I haven't changed. I clearly baffled my nursery-school and kindergarten teachers with what I call my gregarious introvertedness. They commented that I enjoyed playing alone, but would get along fine when others joined me, and maybe even take charge, but at some point would leave the group and go back to playing alone.

MadisonMan said...

Francisco at 11:24 : That's a great story! Was the school psychologist named O. Henry by any chance?

JAORE said...

FWIW, compare ACT or SAT scores to discipline. Elementary Ed teachers are the bottom of the barrel. Funsie math, little or no science, heavy on teaching theory.

Yeah, let's compare their salaries to software engineers.

Freeman Hunt said...

Among the middle and upper middle class, I notice a white people problem of not disciplining their children. When did that happen? Why? Why whites but not other races?

And what's the deal with electronics all the time? They're making the kids socially disabled.

And no, not all whites, but certainly a noticeable number.

Bay Area Guy said...

"Among the middle and upper middle class, I notice a white people problem of not disciplining their children. When did that happen? Why? Why whites but not other races?"

It's true in the Bay Area. Because of my biases, I attribute it to liberal white parents, but I see a lot of it.

When the kid is a young, spanking is violent! So they don't spank.

When the kid is an adolescent, my precious Johnny has a "learning disability" or is "emotionally challenged"

When the kid is a teenager, he doesn't need to drive, I have an uber account for him.

It goes on and on -- raising snowflakes and beta males. More so for the boys, than the girls. With the girls, it's fight, fight, fight!

Dave said...

Have to back up that Norm McDonald video on teachers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAg9M-O9wGo

Definitely NSFW. Some teacher heckles him. It seems obvious to me he was ready to draw this out.

"Teachers actually F more kids than priests."

wildswan said...

"Ralph L said...
Wasn't there a whole subculture of Paste Eaters in elementary school?"

I stand with Ralph and Stephen. I ate paste as a child.* I did not think of thriftily storing a paste strip on my arm for nibbling on in class. Stephen Miller did. This is why Stephen Miller works in the White House and I am retired. But paste shaming must end.
Lady Paste So Good

* The internet explains paste eating in this way:
Paste is made of flour and water but Elmer's School paste is made of flour, water, sugar, alum and spearmint oil. The alum is bad. The rest? "The quick and dirty moral of the story is that if you want to enjoy paste responsibly a quick sprinkle of clove or mint on your next pasta dish could bring back those halcyon days.

YOU HAVE BEEN EATING PASTE YOUR WHOLE LIFE."
http://www.gpb.org/blogs/the-daily-jog/2013/03/19/was-it-ok-to-eat-paste-as-a-child

wildswan said...

Pasta is grown-up paste. The Mediterranean Diet - what is it but the Third Grade Diet in an Italian disguise. They throw pasta and it sticks to wall just as it did to the desk for that special varnish infusion. But now Elmer's pasta is called al dente rather than "stop that".

Francisco D said...

Francisco at 11:24 : That's a great story! Was the school psychologist named O. Henry by any chance?

LOL!

It was Mrs. Goodrich. I think she had a Master's degree and a school system title, but not a license as a psychologist.

I recall her as being very bland and non-threatening. In comparison, the Principal looked like a female prison warden from the 1930's. She was scary. We were all terrified of her.

Dave said...

"How could Nikki Finke thinks this was okay?"

It would be good to ask her, but I understand she is a very private person and does not give interviews.

The spelling is pretty close. I had to check it when I first read that story.

Michelle Dulak Thomson said...

Henry,

The median salary for all teachers across the united states is about $55K. Compare this to median salary for a technical writer of 70K and median salary of over 100K for software engineers, and well over $120K in the states with the better teacher salaries.

There are some differences here, are there not? A technical writer needs to know (a) the material s/he's writing about, and (b) how to write clearly and systematically. Neither is trivial, and they don't come together in one person all that often. (I was told by more than one professor at UC/Berkeley -- I was studying mechanical engineering -- that I ought to consider technical writing, not because my engineering skills sucked, but because my lab reports were clear, concise, and orderly. Apparently it isn't that common.) Suffice it to say that you need neither skill if you're a third-grade English teacher, and, unsurprisingly, very few third-grade English teachers boast either. Does it astonish you that one of these professions is paid better than the other?

"Software engineer" is a capacious category, and includes people who have worked their way through a couple of big books bought at the local Barnes & Noble, who can handle what passes for grunt work in software design. But, again, most teachers, especially in the lower grades, are likely to be intimidated even by the books, never mind enrolling in actual coursework. Software engineers are paid more because they do more.

I am not actually down on all public school teachers; as I've said already, I'm married to one. But there is an amazing gamut of public school teachers, from the people who do the absolute bare minimum to the people (like my husband) whose weekends are taken up grading 100+ scale exams weekly. (That's "scale" as in musical scale; every week, every kid in each of his three orchestras gets a new scale to learn and has to video it and send it to him, whereupon he makes detailed comments and sends them back. No multiple-choice or T/F exams in his classroom.) He tells me that you can tell the people phoning it in from the people actually teaching by whose cars are still in the parking lot long after the kids are gone. There are people phoning it in at his school, as at every school, but none of them are in the music department; orchestras, bands, and choruses (several of each) all routinely place at or near the top statewide in competitions.

Robert Cook said...

"Also notice the comparison is specifically to salaries omitting their outsized pension and medical benefits."

How do you know teachers receive "outsized pension and medical benefits?" What is "outsized?"

RichardJohnson said...

Mike K
Some of the problems with education fads like Common Core and "New Math" are boredom by Ed school instructors. They don't want phonics or multiplication tables because it is boring.

In general, yes. Children like repetition, because they need reinforcement of their much smaller knowledge base. How many 4-5 year olds want to have the SAME STORY read night after night? Quite a few. Ask any parent. Similarly, first graders like the sight and sound phonics drills, which provide an added bonus. Most of the time in school, students are expected to be quiet, but in the sight and sound phonics drills, they are encouraged to talk. All of us like to talk.


Adults, by contrast, find such repetition boring. After all, they learned that stuff a generation ago. It's old stuff for adults- though it isn't old stuff for children.Ed school profs make the mistake of thinking that because THEY find something boring, children also find it boring.

Now for "on the other hand." I took a form of New Math in high school- Illinois Math. I loved its proofs. For the first time in my life I liked math. I have an interesting anecdote about Max Beberman, the creator of UICSM, a.k.a. Illinois Math. I took a geometry course in college with a professor who had once heard Max Beberman speak. Max Beberman, my professor told me, said that it was never his intention to bypass learning multiplication tables.

The by passing of learning multiplication tables. was done by elementary school teachers, who usually have low math skills, misinterpreting what should be done. This also points out that Illinois Math was not designed for average ability students- nor average ability teachers. Beberman developed it teaching faculty brats at the University of Illinois lab school. At my high school, the top students loved Illinois Math for its emphasis on proofs. More average students disliked Illinois Math for its emphasis on proofs.

Illinois Math in the hands of average teachers or average students led to less to optimal results. Illinois Math needed top teachers and top students.

The Distributive principle of multiplication, which I learned in Illinois Math, was useful in estimating. If I hadn't already learned the multiplication tables, I couldn't have made this self-taught jump.

Rusty said...

'How do you know teachers receive "outsized pension and medical benefits?" What is "outsized?"'
Making more in retirement than you did at your phoney balony public sector job.

tim in vermont said...

That picture of him in his class photo looks a lot like I looked. No wonder my teachers worried about me. I wouldn't have thought of making pasta on my arm in third grade, that's for sure.

alan markus said...

DBQ said: but of all the people that I have had as clients in my financial planning practice.....public school teachers are the dumbest, least educated, least knowledgeable people I have ever come across.

In the early 70's as a college student I worked as an assistant to a car salesman - he had a lot of business - I would do his cold calling, swap plates, bring cars up to the front for test drives, etc. Everything so that he did not have to shag around the car lot when he could be working with customers. Anyway, those were the days before internet, price guides showing invoice cost, etc. He specifically said he most enjoyed working with teachers. They would come in armed with "facts and data" and made it very clear that they were "one up" on him because they were teachers with an education. He did not find it much of a challenge to give them no better a deal (and sometimes worse) than any other customer. Said it was pretty easy to derail them without them knowing it happened.

JaimeRoberto said...

When I was a kid I thought nearly all my teachers were very good. I still think that. Maybe part of it is because back then teaching was one of the few jobs open to women, so there was a large pool of highly qualified candidates to choose from. Heck, my grandma had a Masters from Stanford and was a math teacher in San Francisco. Now that there are more opportunities for women, the best have gone to other professions. Good for the women, not so good for the schools.

In my kids' district it seems that about 1/3 of the teachers are very good, 1/3 are ok, and 1/3 shouldn't be anywhere near a classroom. A lot of the younger teachers who may be good are the first on the chopping block when there are layoffs, so they tend to go away leaving the crappy teachers with seniority.

To be fair, it seems that the raw material that teachers have to work with is worse than it used to be. Parents don't discipline their children, many more kids for whom English is not their native language, parents from cultures that don't value education, and the push to put "special needs" kids into normal classrooms where they take up an inordinate amount of resources.

Furthermore, there's always the push to use the latest fad, like Common Core math, which makes the teachers' job harder and prevents parents from helping.

Michael K said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Michael K said...

Ed school profs make the mistake of thinking that because THEY find something boring, children also find it boring.

Yes and Education is prone to fads, probably because they are bored.

I remember such fads as "see and say" spelling. "New math." Now "Common Core"

My first wife had to take "dumbbell English" freshman year in college because she had been taught with "See and Say" spelling relying on word shapes to spell them. She denies that she had to take English 100Y in freshman year but she did. And that's why.

I qualified for English 101, the advanced level but, by the time I found out, there was a cute girl sitting next to me in English 100a.

As it turned out, she wasn't interested and English 100 a and b were boring as hell. I had been reading since 1st grade.

Rick said...

Maybe part of it is because back then teaching was one of the few jobs open to women,

When was this? It's likely to be true but only for people who are 70 or so.

Big Mike said...

I note that Cookie raises that tired old story about teachers dipping into their own pockets to get basic school supplies for their students. And I have little doubt that here and there one can actually find such people. But Cookie’s New York City is planning to spend $17,500 per pupil. If I lived in New York I would want to know how that money is being spent before I emoted all over school teachers buying school supplies for the students. But then Cookie comes from a tradition of throwing money at problems and never mind what results you get or how the money is spent.

Rick said...

How do you know teachers receive "outsized pension and medical benefits?"

I am sentient. It's revealing I gave you a specific example yet you prove impervious to facts. That seems to be a requirement to hold your beliefs so it makes a certain amount of sense.

What is "outsized?"

Vastly more than the % of benefits to total compensation for other workers.

Also vastly more than claimed when the legislation passed, vastly more than budgeted, vastly more than funded, vastly more than admitted to by advocates.

Big Mike said...

The question needs to be asked: why are people assuming that Nikki Fiske is necessarily telling the truth about young Mr. Miller? I note that even Althouse, who has an “I’m skeptical” tag, has fallen for the story. But who has corroborated it? We should just take her word? Why?

Women lie. Never forget that. Women lie.

tomaig said...

I bet you were quite the Momma Bear back when your son was in school, Professor.

Rick said...

why are people assuming that Nikki Fiske is necessarily telling the truth about young Mr. Miller?

Where do you see this assumption? It's an even worse betrayal if it's false. Is there a criticism above which would not apply? I can't think of one.

The possibility is in fact mentioned [I'm calling bullshit; various comments about how credible it is to remember one student from 25 years ago]. It just doesn't seem particularly relevant.

Big Mike said...

It's revealing I gave you a specific example yet you prove impervious to facts.

@Rick, the only way to get through to Cookie is to laugh at him. He sometimes reacts to scorn and derision. But facts? What are facts to a hardcore far left extremist who once claimed that he saw no ideological difference between Obama and Dubya.

Gahrie said...

But Cookie’s New York City is planning to spend $17,500 per pupil. If I lived in New York I would want to know how that money is being spent before I emoted all over school teachers buying school supplies for the students.

At least half of that is to pay people to fill out paperwork to send to Albany and Washington D.C..

JaimeRoberto said...

When was this? It's likely to be true but only for people who are 70 or so.

Probably every teacher I ever had is over 70 by now. Or dead.

Rick said...

I meant the students for whom this is true are now ~70 or older.

Rick said...

I don't expect to get through to him.

Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...

AllenS said:
"And they keep reaching back further! I look forward to the articles uncovering bad toddler and infant behavior! "He smeared his feces on the wall well into his tenth month of life - we can't trust him because most infants stop at six months."

Disclosure: I have never had a kid; if my ignorance of baby feces smearing doesn't ring true, that is why. But you get my drift. "


the ProgLibDems are by far the biggest smearing and poo-flinging bunch yet

Dust Bunny Queen said...

How do you know teachers receive "outsized pension and medical benefits?"

I used to be on the board of a public agency which received the same type of benefits as the Ca Teachers.

Medical insurance premiums (and this was BEFORE Obamacare) for each insured was from $1800 to $2500 a month.

California teachers belong to CalSTRS which is a defined benefit plan. Which means that they are guaranteed a pension no matter what stupid investments the State of California makes. (Similar to CalPERS). CalSTRS has an unfunded liability of $80.4 billion at market value as of August 2018. Yay?

The Employer....the school district....contributions: Under the CalSTRS 2014 Funding Plan, employer contributions on compensation creditable to the Defined Benefit Program will increase gradually up to 19.1 percent in 2020–21. Beginning in 2021–22, the Teachers’ Retirement Board has a limited rate setting authority to adjust the contribution rate up or down by no more than 1 percent per year up to a maximum contribution rate of 20.25 percent.

Then to catch up.....The state contributes 7.328 percent of members’ annual earnings to the Defined Benefit Program.

The state also contributes an additional 2.5 percent of member earnings into the CalSTRS Supplemental Benefit Maintenance Account. The SBMA account is used to maintain the purchasing power of benefits.


So just off the top of my head....for that poor teacher earning $60K a year the CalSTRS contributions are 19.1% + 7.328% + 2.5% = 28.9%. Oh HELL just round it up to 30%

CalSTRS= about $18,000 a year
Insurance $1500*12= $18,000 a year
$36,000 a year!!

Then the pay out on actual retirement....anywhere from 50 to 70K a year depending on how long they worked the age at retirement etc etc etc..

Link for anyone who has the interest/stomach on how a defined benefit CalSTRS plan works.

OH...and did I mention 80 BILLION in unfunded liabilities.!!!

I repeat.........Cry me a fucking river.

Henry said...

@Michelle -- I also throw in Dental Hygienist.

But good teachers almost always have 4 + 2 years of schooling. It takes a lot of learning and skill to teach well, including both mastering a subject and presenting it to students. With 4 + 2 years of schooling the kind of bright person that would be a good teacher can enter a lot of professions that make more money than teaching.

The point isn't to make an apples to apples comparison. It is to point out that $50 to 70K median salary for a white collar job, even with benefits, isn't very lavish.

The point about software engineers is the obvious: good math, science, and technology teachers will absolutely have to take lower pay to teach than they could earn in the technology field.

Michelle Dulak Thomson said...

Henry,

What you say about "good teachers" is definitionally true, of teachers good or bad. You have your 4-year degree, and then your 2-year masters' degree in education. This is what my husband had to get when he came to teach in Oregon. He had taught in private schools for a dozen or more years in CA, without any such credential, and led his orchestra to three national championships out of the three he entered (they were the ones closest to home, in Reno, Albuquerque, and somewhere in the South Bay). It was in Albuquerque that he was approached by the man who recruited him up to OR. Where the first order of business was getting an entirely unnecessary teaching credential. (Really unnecessary; the master teacher who was assigned to follow him averred that their roles ought to be reversed.) But it doesn't stop there; there's "continuing education," required, every year.

"The kind of bright person that would be a good teacher" might not make more money pursuing his gifts outside education. My husband is a first-class violinist, violist, and conductor. It might surprise you to learn that none of these are necessarily tickets to riches, either. There's a film you might want to see, called "The Freeway Philharmonic." It's the tale of musicians who live in the Bay Area, but play orchestral gigs everywhere from Santa Rosa and Modesto to Monterey. The orchestras are of course in on this; they carefully avoid tripping on one another's schedules.

The salary you are calling "not lavish" is over the median household salary in the US. If the teacher isn't the only worker in the household, the household is making well over the median. I suppose you are saying that it's a "white collar" job, and therefore deserving of more than, say, those sweaty blue-collar auto workers make? Tell me why. I think your third-grade English teacher is doing much less strenuous work in a much more congenial environment. Seriously.

Rick said...

With 4 + 2 years of schooling the kind of bright person that would be a good teacher can enter a lot of professions that make more money than teaching...

The point about software engineers is the obvious: good math, science, and technology teachers will absolutely have to take lower pay to teach than they could earn in the technology field.


These two points show the reason your comparison is inapt. You're referencing the very best of the most valuable and then applying it across the board (the median). Are third grade teachers of multiplication tables and reading aloud with the kids demonstrating these skills?

And on a completely separate issue you base your justification on credentials rather than performance.

Big Mike said...

Both of my sisters were education majors. In my junior year as a math major I was taking ordinary and partial differential equations. One sister had “bulletin board arranging” in her junior year curriculum, the other studied “Fairy Tales 1” and “Fairy Tales 2” during her junior year.

AllenS said...

IngaChuck, that is not my quote.

gerry said...

Suspended.

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