Several thousand Central American migrants have turned down a chance to apply for refugee status and obtain a Mexican offer of benefits, vowing to set out before dawn Saturday to continue their long trek toward the U.S. border.
Mexican President Enrique Pena Nieto announced what he called the "You are at home" plan, offering shelter, medical attention, schooling and jobs to Central Americans in Chiapas and Oaxaca states if they applied, calling it a first step toward permanent refugee status. Authorities said more than 1,700 had already applied for refugee status.
But after one of the caravan's longest days of walking, the bulk of the migrants were boisterous Friday evening in their refusal to accept anything less than safe passage to the U.S. border.
October 28, 2018
Mexico offers the Caravan the "You are at home" plan, and the Caravan says no, we'd rather walk a thousand miles to a home in the U.S., which isn't even offering to make us feel at home.
The NYT reports:
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Though adamant in it's refusal to accept Mexico as it's final destination, the Caravan largely avoided use of the word "shithole".
Let them in, load them into military aircraft, give them a bag of peanuts and a coke, and fly them home.
In this case Mexico is shitholier than thou.
They're walking 2000 miles to live in a country with a very generous welfare system. They don't want to live in a second rate country like Mexico.
Mexican welfare can't hold a candle to Gringo welfare.
Can’t do that, rhhardin-one of them might have peanut allergies. Amnesty for all! ;0/
And they won't get to vote in Mexico.
In-state tuition doesn't mean much in Oaxaca.
This is a PR disaster for the Dems. I mean: these people are asserting they have a RIGHT to go to America as citizens.
This does not sit well with anyone not a hard core Democrat.
the migrants were boisterous Friday evening in their refusal to accept anything less than safe passage to the U.S. border.
Boisterous is such an innocent sounding adjective...how about "militant" instead? These aren't refugees, this is an invasion attempt.
They're all on a contingency fee, they don't get paid by ______ (fill in your choice) unless they make it to the US.
"in their refusal to accept anything less than safe passage to the U.S. border"
Well, obviously they have making trouble as Priority #1.
migrants were boisterous
Awww. They're rough but good-natured, like the finest sandpaper, and also vibrant, non-diverse and well fed. Let's take some home!
Actually, this refusal make me think these 'migrants' may actually be more intelligent than I assumed they are.
Also, speaking of stupid......"migrants" ? what phony hucksters, fakes and fools our Media are to use descriptors like this.
The midterm-election turnout to vote against the Democrats will be sky-high because of three factors:
1) Making such a big deal about an alleged teenage incident in a nomination to the US Supreme Court
2) Caravans of Central Americans walking into the USA
3) Putin again spending tens of thousands of dollars on Facebook ads.
Don't underestimate the third factor. DOJ/FBI and the Special Counsel are powerless to stop superspy Carter Page. He remains free to fly back and forth between Trump Tower and the Kremlin. Flying to the Kremlin, he carries Trumps instructions about which elections to target with the Facebook ads. Flying back to Trump Tower, Page carries photographs of Russian prostitutes urinating on hotel beds.
That's the Trump-Putin collusion that decided the 2016 election, and it again will decide the 2018 election.
Someone needs to organize an event like hands across America where a couple of thousand Americans walk into Mexico, link arms, and prevent the caravan from reaching the border.
Refusal to accept Mexico's offer should be grounds for deportation to one's home country, not a third party. But that would make too much sense.
As for the caravan from Honduras, they need to go back to their own shithole country. We don't want them in our shithole country.
Wait - that didn't come out right....
Shouldn't the refusal of Mexico's offer be automatically disqualifying for refugee status at the US border?
Also, speaking of stupid......"migrants" ?
It's like when those pitiful Germans migrated into Poland and Russia, ostensibly to escape the Nazis at home. Soros was in on that, too.
@ Mike Sylwester
Page also carries balloons, stuffed with specially modified electrons called Chadons, in his colon. These particles will be secretly fed into voting machines in battleground states where they will turn votes for Democrats into votes for Republicans.
The next Trump outrage will be ready for launch early next week, then another just before the election.
I'm sure one will be a bombshell, that will be sure to sink Trump and the republicans.
If the dems fail to take the House, I expect an onslaught of "U.S. elections are no longer valid" from the MSM.
Trump is obviously behind all this. He’s behind everything bad or crazy. At least, that is what my Dem friends tell me.
Mexico offers the Caravan the "You are at home" plan, and the Caravan says no, we'd rather walk a thousand miles to a home in the U.S., which isn't even offering to make us feel at home."...
That's because many heard what they thought were some Democrats offering them a "Home is where you make it" plan.
Hasn't anyone informed these folks the US has become a dystopian devastated hellscape populated by nazi's and white supremacists with a leader who is literally worse than Hitler and whose health care policies and net neutrality policies and environmental policies and tax policies have already murdered millions (some folks mulitple times over) and has rendered our air unbreathable and water undrinkable.
I mean, hasn't anyone TOLD them this?
Maybe this Honduras Caravan is karmic payback for all the late night drunken caravans we made into Tijuana in the 80s.
Although we never requested asylum - just cerveza.
On the other hand, Mexico is a s***hole, so why stop there?
Glenn Beck reads an email from someone living in Honduras that tells how marxist Honduran president Manuel Zelaya attempted to pull the same move to rewrite the constitution in order to establish a dictatorship, just as his puppet master Hugo Chavez had done, and he was ousted.
Zalea holds America partially responsible, which is why the caravan is more about destabilizing American politics, and not about seeking asylum, which is why they refused Mexico's offer.
Blogger Gahrie said...”Shouldn't the refusal of Mexico's offer be automatically disqualifying for refugee status at the US border?”
Good point.
They're all on a contingency fee, they don't get paid by ______ (fill in your choice) unless they make it to the US.
Tank has it right. It's like a hit. Some money down but the rest comes after the deed is done.
Page also carries balloons, stuffed with specially modified electrons called Chadons, in his colon.
Word to the wise: It doesn't work with regular electrons.
Legally they are toast.
I wonder if the women and kids are getting extra money (or are being held at gunpoint) to stay with the Karavan (sic) just so the well places photographers can try to get some Pulitzer Prize Winning Photo of Americans being Mean to Brown People.
Diplomad sez:
"If they are fleeing Honduras, they can seek asylum in Mexico, the first stop in their "escape." Mexico has the responsibility to grant them asylum, turn them over to the UN, or return them to their country of origin."
Legally they are toast.
Well, I use the word 'legally' perhaps incorrectly. After all, there may be a singularly persuasive husband asserting how upset the Karavan (sic) is about things so legalities and evidence are less compelling than they once were...even to professors.
Apparently the refugees have studied the way Trump negotiates and is using that against the Mexican Government.
Mexican government: "This is our best offer"
Refugees: "No it's not"
I think the important question is 'Is the Karavan (sic) pro or anti abortion'.
How about we set up machine gun nests along the border and we start wasting people who try to break into our country. Bet they'd stop in Mexico then.
Give them their own homeland--Atlantis.
I'm picturing 55-gal drums on the bottom of the sea.
You have to say that England was much better than Spain back in the day.
England’s old colonies, Canada and the US, are good countries. Spain’s old colonies, Mexico, Central America, and most of South America aren’t good.
Blogger Tank said...
They're all on a contingency fee,
I'd like to know who is paying it but the MSM will never tell us.
I think Blogger Gahrie is legally correct, because refugees are required to request asylum in the first country they enter. And I also think the chances of that making a dent in the media conversation is the same chance as Manny Machado has of becoming a fan favorite in Milwaukee. You don’t even need a crystal ball to see how the conversation will go. “These refugees traveled thousands of miles to escape oppression and death.” The requirements of the law won’t enter the MSM conversation. Anyone who brings it up is clearly a . . . you know the refrain.
They are not refugees. They're economic migrants. According to the law, if you want to apply for asylum, you have to do so in the first country you enter after you leave your home country. Most of them have already passed that point. The fact that they're waving the flags of their home countries suggests they don't want to become Americans. They just want to be paid and taken care of by Americans.
According to a coworker of mine who has attended Army War College, these people are by definition an invading force. According to him, under international law, the US can freely open fire on them. We won't, but legally, we could.
"Prize Winning Photo of Americans being Mean to Brown People."
Winner winner chicken dinner!
This is an invasion with women and children as shields.
Spain’s old colonies, Mexico, Central America, and most of South America aren’t good.
The hardest one to explain is Argentina. The people are almost all descended from Europeans.
Last time CIA Factbook checked, 97% of Argentines were of European descent (mostly Italian and Spanish, but also German, French and English) A.K.A. white people.
It was pretty successful until Peron but why has it now improved since he was deposed ? The legal system? Spanish language ?
Not improved.
If they manage to get in, we should route them north to Canada. I'm sure Monsieur Trudeau will welcome them with open arms.
Which makes me wonder: What would happen if 10K Americans tried to enter Canada illegally?
Isn't there some rule about having to take asylum in the first country you enter?
If the dems fail to take the House, I expect an onslaught of "U.S. elections are no longer valid" from the MSM.
Rush has made this prediction several months ago. He thinks they are laying the ground work for several years down the road.
The only thing keeping Dems from power is elections
@Mockturtle:
Maple syrup moat?
Which makes me wonder: What would happen if 10K Americans tried to enter Canada illegally?
Isn't that exactly what happened with all those Draft Dodgers? Hint: they weren't given citizenship.
Mexico’s next offer should be same or worse, with pics of our national guard on the border.
Or maybe screw around with GPS sats to split them up and turn them back, the long way around.
Or commandeer supply channels and turn those around.
"their refusal to accept anything less than safe passage to the U.S. border." I was about to write something along the lines of, how dare these people? But second thought, that's not right.
They want what they want, and I can't blame them. We get a say too, though. And if we say, You don't get to jump the line, that matters.
My guess is that the caravan will dwindle over 1000 miles.
A few hundred will go the whole distance and should be fenced in if they cross: I'm sure there is a perfectly legal basis for treating an border crossing under these conditions as a crime, without refugee status. They are migrant people from a country with little hope, but clearly not refugees: imprison those who commit violent acts, transport the rest back where they came from.
If we want to be humane, and if Mexico cooperates, we could set up a processing center on the Mexico side to try to identify actual refugees. But, I doubt many would qualify. Most humane would be to magically fix their home countries, but the wand is broke.
"If the dems fail to take the House, I expect an onslaught of "U.S. elections are no longer valid" from the MSM."
-- A fair guess since they already have a lot of think pieces on why the Electoral College and the Supreme Court need to be axed or changed.
A flock of Hueys and Wagner's Die Walküre full blast might be a deterrent. If not, there is always napalm.
One thing that might be useful in the long run. Make a law that anyone who is caught (and of course fingerprinted) entering the U.S. illegally will never be allowed to enter legally, as a tourist, student, businessman, or even as an accredited diplomat. No exceptions, no expiration date. That might make the more talented of the 'migrants' think twice about sneaking in.
Blogger Michael K said...
Spain’s old colonies, Mexico, Central America, and most of South America aren’t good.
The hardest one to explain is Argentina. The people are almost all descended from Europeans.
Last time CIA Factbook checked, 97% of Argentines were of European descent (mostly Italian and Spanish, but also German, French and English) A.K.A. white people.
It was pretty successful until Peron but why has it now improved since he was deposed ? The legal system? Spanish language ?
It's the influence of the Caliphate. Southern people are basically Arab: straight black hair, olive skin, macho hair-trigger temper, inability to organize a winning army, proto-fascist politics, corrupt bureaucracy, etc, etc. Just look at photos of Vicente Fox and Saddam Hussein and tell me they are not kissing cousins (not that there is anything wrong with that).
Blogger mockturtle said...
A flock of Hueys and Wagner's Die Walküre full blast might be a deterrent. If not, there is always napalm.
This is essentially the same identical message of Robert Bowers, the Tree of Life Hero of the radical anti-immigrant right.
mccullough said...
You have to say that England was much better than Spain back in the day.
England’s old colonies, Canada and the US, are good countries. Spain’s old colonies, Mexico, Central America, and most of South America aren’t good."
You are half right. Most of Britain's former colonies are also shitholes. Canada, the USA, New Zealand and after a rough start Australia are the exceptions. Roughly speaking, these countries were intended to be New England. The rest of the British Empire was intended to just enrich Brittain. Spain's intentions were from the beginning were simpler. It was always about El Dorado, they just didn't think they would be there for four hundred years and governed accordingly.
Michael K your observation about Argentina is interesting. Argentina was as recently as the 1940's one of the richest countries in the world. It had a per capita equal to Canada. The Peron came and ruined it. Argentina's problem is that is peopled with people who think themselves to be Western Europeans and want to live a Western European lifestyle on a Latin American economy.
This is essentially the same identical message of Robert Bowers, the Tree of Life Hero of the radical anti-immigrant right.
I see the DNC Talking Points are out today early.
Entering the country illegally is only a misdemeanor while it should be a felony. Some of our laws suck.
Argentina's problem is that is peopled with people who think themselves to be Western Europeans and want to live a Western European lifestyle on a Latin American economy.
But why the Latin American Economy ? They were rich on export of unfinished products w=like beef and wool.
They never developed manufacturing. The same observation has been made of Rome. Rome had a working steam engine in 200AD.
Why did the Industrial Revolution wait for 1500 years ? Joel Mokyr, in his books, thinks it was patent law and the whole English Common Law system that we have had since 1700. Argentina never got that.
Chile does reasonably well in global terms, and is much more "indian" than Argentina.
Argentina is indeed a weird case. The history is instructive. Upon achieving independence it immediately fell into a long series of civil wars, carried on by regional warlords. Argentina (and Uruguay, intimately connected in these troubles) lived in some degree of political and social chaos till about 1880.
In terms of governance, it was absolutely divorced from the Spanish Bourbon centralized, mercantilist, monopolizing model. The old Porteno administration was smashed in the mid 19th century in the frontier-gaucho takeover by Rosas. So there was a great ideological change. But to what? The answer is pretty much the paternalistic caudillismo of the warlords, institutionalized.
The Argentine founding fathers were not a bunch of political philosophers, but literally men on horseback, warriors of the plains, feudal chiefs.
The Church was always weak in Argentina, as indeed in most of Latin America. This may sound odd, but it was the case. The Church was mainly limited to the cities and large towns, being poorly supported financially.
My impression is the Chile was a typical South American society until Pinochet invited the "Chicago Boys" to invent the economy,
It may be one reason why Pinochet is so hated by the left.
Stupid thinks it's the economy:
The most prevalent forms of state-sponsored torture that Chilean prisoners endured were electric shocks, waterboarding, beatings, and sexual abuse. Another common mechanism of torture employed was "disappearing" those who were deemed to be potentially subversive because they adhered to leftist political doctrines. The tactic of "disappearing" the enemies of the Pinochet regime was systematically carried out during the first four years of military rule. The "disappeared" were held in secret, subjected to torture and were often never seen again. Both the National Commission on Political Imprisonment and Torture (Valech Report) and the Commission of Truth and Reconciliation (Rettig Report) approximate that there were around 30,000 victims of human rights abuses in Chile, with 27,255 tortured[2] and 2,279 executed.
The "caravan" people have been offered refugee status by Mexico. A very generous offer.
Some wisely accepted. The rest refused it.
They are no longer classified as refugees. They are invaders and should be treated as such.
End of Story.
Michael The Magnificent said...
Glenn Beck reads an email from someone living in Honduras that tells how marxist Honduran president Manuel Zelaya attempted to pull the same move to rewrite the constitution in order to establish a dictatorship, just as his puppet master Hugo Chavez had done, and he was ousted.
I remember it well. It was the height of Chavez's popularity, and Obama was the newly elected marxist leader of the free world. Marxist was once again of the march in the Americas.
The Honduran Supreme Court, in a legally binding, Constitutional proceeding removed the dictator, and a pro-American President took his Place. Obama was outraged, and threaten to cut off all aid to Honduras if the "democratically elected" dictator was not re-installed.
Well part of the reason that Argentina's population is 97% of European descent is that they simply exterminated the indigenous population. The gauchos cleared the pampas of any critter that didn't have four legs. There was lots of English (and other European) investment in Argentina, and in the early 1900s it was a major exporter of meat and wheat. There was a large tranche of European (mainly Italians and Greeks) emigration to Argentina after WW II (not to mention the occasional Nazi war criminal or two). So Argentina worked--until Peronism came.
Now as the the "caravan" in Mexico. 10,000 people is the size of a fully staffed Army Division. 10,000 people marching under the flag(s) of their country constitute an invasion force. The early 1970's novel "Camp of The Saints" is instructive reading here. Things will not end well.
Entering the country illegally is only a misdemeanor while it should be a felony.
If it were a felony they would get free legal counsel. Lawyers would make $Billions at taxpayers' expense. Plus there would be other disadvantages for the US (trials, juries.)
I suggest we have an airshow at the border when the caravan is in visual range. A-10s and AC-130s, live ammo demo runs.
The Spanish character (in Spain) is badly misunderstood.
Spaniards are not a "Latin" hair-trigger tempered lot, not wild and crazy guys. Indeed, the truth is almost exactly the opposite. The Spaniard is generally reserved, conformist and process-bound, even as process is not well-respected, it is followed, even when worked around and subverted. Even in the days of the conquistadors the paperwork and accounts were of primary importance. The documents were duly written up, the expeditions were accompanied by auditors and accountants.
An ancestor of mine was such an auditor, who accompanied the expedition in the conquest of Jolo in 1876.
Spain is not and has never really been a particularly violent country, even in European terms, whatever its reputation.
The obvious solution is to invade Northern Mexico. If we're going to have no border, lets just take them over.
"Spain is not and has never really been a particularly violent country, even in European terms, whatever its reputation."
So, how do you explain the Spainish Civil War? One of the bloodiest conflicts ( on a per capita basis) of the 20th century.
"Well part of the reason that Argentina's population is 97% of European descent is that they simply exterminated the indigenous population."
That's ridiculous. The Indians were very small in numbers and died mostly of disease. Later, they were swamped by massive Immigration. Just like we are now.
How do you explain WWI and WWII?
Or any other European conflict?
Obama was outraged, and threaten to cut off all aid to Honduras if the "democratically elected" dictator was not re-installed.
The same thing happened in Ukraine and Russia. In Syria and Libya it's hard to say, other than in the former, their leader was a moderating influence among the tribes and factions, and in the latter, he was an agent of economic and social reform. Then there was Egypt. Same president. Same Change.
Blogger Howard said...
Stupid thinks it's the economy:
Howard comes in right away to prove my point.
I know of no big extermination of the Indians in Argentina. Why do you guys post this stuff with no links to any evidence ?
It may be that some of the extinction of Indians was because of the 10,000 year isolation from European diseases but the left cannot understand that because they need a reason to hate western civilization, like Howard, for example.
Blogger buwaya said...
How do you explain WWI and WWII?
Or any other European conflict?
These types of conflicts cannot be sustained by Latins who are always the weak underbelly.
The tradeoff of prosperity and social stability vs "human rights" is ambiguous.
The human cost of poverty is extreme. If a nation of millions can somehow buy 2% extra annual economic growth over several decades, at a cost of 2000 political killings, it would net-net come out far ahead in avoiding premature deaths from misery.
Its a brutal calculation, sometimes made necessary by decades of political and social failures.
Chickenhawks call for military Blitzkrieg to exterminate a caravan of poor people, unexpectedly.
I suggest we have an airshow at the border when the caravan is in visual range. A-10s and AC-130s, live ammo demo runs.
This is similar to my suggestion above. As there is a large Marine Air Base right here in Yuma that does maneuvers almost every day, it should be easy to do and there wouldn't be any extra costs.
Blogger buwaya said...
The tradeoff of prosperity and social stability vs "human rights" is ambiguous.
The human cost of poverty is extreme. If a nation of millions can somehow buy 2% extra annual economic growth over several decades, at a cost of 2000 political killings, it would net-net come out far ahead in avoiding premature deaths from misery.
Its a brutal calculation, sometimes made necessary by decades of political and social failures.
This middle eastern spawn thought process is why they will remain the soft underbelly.
We have F35s here, too. :-)
Michael K, as I mentioned before, Peron ruined Argentina. He instituted fascist economics and the country went downhill since. Interesting is how many Argentinians retain dual citizenships. As if they are hedging their bets (which isn't at that crazy considering they are in Argentina).
Howard while you list the evils of Pinochet, you conveniently overlook that Allende was attempting to impose communism on Chile and communists never take power and keep it without a considerable amount of violence. On balance Chile is vastly better of despite Pinochet's crimes that it would have been under Allende's crimes.
"Even in the days of the conquistadors the paperwork and accounts were of primary importance. The documents were duly written up, the expeditions were accompanied by auditors and accountants. " Rather like Germans.
The Argentine gaucho society, the inhabitants of the pampas, were a half-breed society initially, much like Mexico's mestizo culture or Canadas Metis. They were washed white through European immigration.
Argentina had US style Indian wars, just as vicious, as well as "trail of tears" style expulsions and the equivalent of reservations.
Blogger Howard said...
Chickenhawks call for military Blitzkrieg to exterminate a caravan of poor people, unexpectedly.
Howard comes through with his Baby Boomer epithets right on schedule.
When did you serve Howard ?
The human tradeoff calculation is entirely global Howard.
Indeed, it is a mark of European "Enlightenment" thought. People like Frederick II or Maurice de Saxe were explicit in making such cold-blooded calculations.
And it has always been so in China.
Allende was aborted before his crimes were realized, cubanbob. The ends justify the means is not an argument, it is an ex post facto rationalization
Michael K. said, "Rome had a working steam engine in 200AD."
I went and looked that up and found the Aeolipile.
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeolipile
That's fascinating, but it seems a stretch to call it a working steam engine. It's a toy, about as simple as could possibly be, and there would have been a long road to take before it could have been turned into something useful. It's a minimal proof-of-concept, but so basic that it's unreasonable to expect people at the time to see the implications.
It's could be that only people that already know what a steam engine is will see this as a big hint.
Actually this is making me curious about what the context was that produced this. What other devices were the Romans making out of metal? Was there a set of ideas that the Romans had that was leading them to experiment with machines? Does any documentation of what they were thinking that led to this sort of thing survive?
Well...here is something that people like Howard are not going to want to hear. (Please keep your head firmly planted where it is already)
If the Government that is elected to protect and defend the country and its citizens will not do its job and leaves the citizens exposed to crime, disease and invasion by foreign countries......
Eventually, there will be formed citizen militias to take over the vacuum left by Government inaction and by people in the government complicit in allowing this invasion to continue.
I'm not advocating. I AM predicting.
The enlightenment wasn't European, it was Scottish, eg, Norge, eg, Viking.
Here is some history of Argentina that Old Geezer could have linked
The Indians of Patagonia were well described by Joshua Slocum in his book, "Sailing Alone Around the World" in 1898.
They had a program of robbing and massacring ships' crews and passengers that were wrecked rounding the Horn.
His account is quite entertaining. At night, when at anchor in small harbors there, he would scatter carpet tacks on his deck. His comment is that "A man cannot step on a carpet tack without saying something about it."
He, of course, had his gun.
That's fascinating, but it seems a stretch to call it a working steam engine.
They used it to open temple doors. The concept was there.
Blogger Dust Bunny Queen said...
Well...here is something that people like Howard are not going to want to hear. (Please keep your head firmly planted where it is already)
If the Government that is elected to protect and defend the country and its citizens will not do its job and leaves the citizens exposed to crime, disease and invasion by foreign countries......
Eventually, there will be formed citizen militias to take over the vacuum left by Government inaction and by people in the government complicit in allowing this invasion to continue.
I'm not advocating. I AM predicting.
You are enabling chickenhawk rightwing impotant nutbars like Bowers to murder innocents because of racist hatred inspired by President Scumbag.
buy 2% extra annual economic growth over several decades, at a cost of 2000 political killings
The Wicked Solution. It's the same apology put forth by Progressives to justify Pro-Choice, including: selective-child, diversity, political congruence, immigration reform, environmentalism, social justice adventures.
Howard said...
The enlightenment wasn't European, it was Scottish, eg, Norge, eg, Viking.
Howard needs to read more.
It is often written that Louis XIV sent the Enlightenment to England when he revoked the Edict of Nantes and sent the Huguenots to England.
Howard: You are enabling chickenhawk rightwing impotant nutbars like Bowers to murder innocents because of racist hatred inspired by President Scumbag.
Aaaah. I see you still have your head firmly ensconced. How can you hear so far up your own ass?
Look up the Clickspring Youtube series on recreating the Anthykera mechanism.
Clickspring recreates the technologies required to make that thing, to the degree of accuracy required.
It is a remarkably sophisticated mechanical and conceptual device, in its own way much more complex than Newcomens steam engines. And it implies the existence of technical traditions far beyond what we usually assume were typical of its times.
Allende killed himself, but it was the mir (guerillas) and his Cuban inlays who were dgi that prefigured his fall, curiously enough one of those surviving guerillas is now a major middleman in Cuba. As for Argentina it was the peronist memem or Syrian background was quite sensible, but provincial spending along with Greenspan's magic formula, tipped the country into default
You are enabling chickenhawk rightwing impotant nutbars like Bowers to murder innocents because of racist hatred inspired by President Scumbag.
Come on Howard, let us in on your military experiences that allows you to describe others as "chicken hawks."
I know the Boomers, while evading the draft, used that term to tar Republicans who supported the Vietnam War,
I even see bumper stickers on Priuses around the U of A campus saying "Send Republican children to Iraq. "
You're not one of those leftist bullshitters, are you Howard ?
Bay Area Guy said...
Maybe this Honduras Caravan is karmic payback for all the late night drunken caravans we made into Tijuana in the 80s.
Although we never requested asylum - just cerveza.
******************************************************
Maybe someone could divert a few hundred of the young men in the caravan by sending them off to see the donkey shows in Tijuana.
IYKWIS...
He is just full of...category error, Locke and Hume were swedish montesquieu and rouuseau?
Following on kirschners who arose out of the debris of the default were akin to the Clinton's but more like the Obamas with their associates in the montoneros (their version of the weatherman
The Eurasian deceases went ahead of the European invasions in both Americas. Only the very first conquistadores got to see pre-Columbian America.
The Honduran Caravan is revenge from the United Fruit Company inspired fascist military control of Central America.
"the "You are at home" plan"
We should not give asylum to anyone who has not applied for it in a safe third country.
Howard gets deeper into leftist conspiracy theories.
How is that study of "The Enlightenment " going, Howard?
Michael K. said, "They used it to open temple doors. The concept was there."
Maybe. But there is disagreement about that.
From Wikipedia: "Another engine used air from a closed chamber heated by an altar fire to displace water from a sealed vessel; the water was collected and its weight, pulling on a rope, opened temple doors.[13] Some historians have conflated the two inventions to assert that the aeolipile was capable of useful work.[14]"
I think the vending machine described as "...a coin was introduced via a slot on the top of the machine, a set amount of holy water was dispensed. This was included in his list of inventions in his book Mechanics and Optics. When the coin was deposited, it fell upon a pan attached to a lever. The lever opened up a valve which let some water flow out. The pan continued to tilt with the weight of the coin until it fell off, at which point a counter-weight would snap the lever back up and turn off the valve.[15]" pretty much describes the level of technology that they were at.
And it's impressive! World history would have been radically different if this sort of thing had been pursued at the time.
But it sounds like it was mostly the work of one genius, Hero of Alexandria and he in fact invented a lot of things, and the books he wrote 2000 years ago, "About automata" and "Mechanics and Optics," obviously had a huge impact on Europe when they were rediscovered and translated.
So actually this is part of our history. It wasn't like Europeans didn't know about him. But it does seem like it took 1500 years for a group of people to develop that found what he had done to be significant.
Blogger Bob Boyd said...
Though adamant in it's refusal to accept Mexico as it's final destination, the Caravan largely avoided use of the word "shithole".
10/28/18, 8:50 AM
First comment was the best. Chiapas IS the shithole of Mexico. Mexicans don't cross the border to live in Nuevo Laredo. Hondurans don't cross the border to settle in Chiapas or Oaxaca.
Trump should offer them special green cards that limit them to legal status is specific areas, say Camden, East St. Louis, or SF. Ask for volunteer cities to take the whole caravan. Listen for the silence.
You are full of it Howard.
All the Latin American countries were under military regimes from the beginning of the European invasions. Basic "caudillismo" inherited from the Spanish conquistadors rather than Mussolini's "fascist" theoretical ideology, though.
Anyway, United Fruit and others just adapted to the local culture as necessary in order to do business. They did not invent the system.
Even Eduardo galeano the Howard zinn of the Americas admitted how badly he got things wrong.
But it does seem like it took 1500 years for a group of people to develop that found what he had done to be significant.
The argument in Mokyr's books, and I recommend them, is that there is a reason why these things were not pursued. The Romans were great engineers, maybe the greatest of antiquity. You can see their aqueducts today.
There were inventions all through the Middle Ages, usually referred to as "The Dark Ages" but many are by anonymous inventors.
The stirrup was a huge invention and led to the age of the armored horseman and Feudalism.
The mold board plow was another which allowed farming in northern Europe where the soil was much harder to work.
It is very hard to find the early history of the plow.
In China, plows made of iron were in use in in about 300 BC, and moldboards, which turn the soil over in a furrow, were in use in the first centure BC. Moldboards were not used in Europe until the late 10th centure.
But:
The farmers of George Washington’s day had no better tools than had the farmers of Julius Caesar’s day; in fact, early Roman plows were superior to those in general use in America eighteen centuries later.
That history is hard to find.
buwaya said, "Look up the Clickspring Youtube series on recreating the Anthykera mechanism."
And you're right. That's is astonishing!
The existence of that artifact proves that there was a gear making, metal working technology that could machine metal to an amazing precision some 2,000 years ago in at least some part of the Roman Empire and maybe the Greek city-states that preceded it. It also implies that the Hero of Alexandria wasn't some anomaly that all by himself invented the machines he describes in his books but was rather a man building on the shoulders of giants before him that even though we have no record of them surely, as the Anthykera artifact demonstrates, must have existed.
But it's important to emphasize that this isn't some independent development from our own. The development of early machines in Europe sprang directly from the books that Hero wrote.
But it's important to emphasize that this isn't some independent development from our own. The development of early machines in Europe sprang directly from the books that Hero wrote.
Or somebody else wrote,. How many plays did Euripides write ?
The point is that there was technology but it did not survive. China had cast iron bells in 400 but when Europeans arrived, the Chinese did not have iron tools.
What happened ? Mokyr's point is that maybe law had something to do with it. We are in danger of seeing that law destroyed by mobs from the left.
Maybe the reason why Education has been dumbed down so much is to make destroying law easier. How much history do kids know today ?
Howard said...
Allende was aborted before his crimes were realized, cubanbob. The ends justify the means is not an argument, it is an ex post facto rationalization"
No Howard. By the time Pinochet and the Chilean Army acted Allende and the communists already destroyed the Chilean economy and were beginning to implement communist terror. One doesn't wait until being dead from infection before using antibiotics to kill the infection.
There is never a good reason to fight communism! I was watching a documentary on "the disappeared," and it turned out to be a lot of Cuban communists who were whining about relatives lost who were trying to export their revolution. Fuck them, too bad lefties that you weren't able to build another nation of prisoners like Cuba.
mandrewa: "But it's important to emphasize that this isn't some independent development from our own. The development of early machines in Europe sprang directly from the books that Hero wrote.
We ALL stand on the shoulders of those who came before us. We shouldn't forget that. (but we probably eventually will per Michael K's point)
Nor should we judge those in the past by standards of today.
"This is a PR disaster for the Dems. I mean: these people are asserting they have a RIGHT to go to America as citizens.
This does not sit well with anyone not a hard core Democrat."
Or a Libertarian.
Not surprised by the Caravan people not wanting to live in Mexico. Tell us Liberals, is their much of a difference between Mexico vs. Honduras, Guatemala, El Salvador, Nicaragua, etc. All of these countries[shitholes] are corrupt to the bone. Evidence - the "Caravan People" looking for jobs in another country.
Blogger Howard said..."These types of conflicts cannot be sustained by Latins who are always the weak underbelly." 10/28/18, 11:12 AM.
Howard please stick to Wisconsin or where ever you live. Grew up in Latin America, spend 18 years there, and quite frankly, you don't know what you are talking about. Over the decades these countries have had successive Rightists and Leftists rule these countries. Whoever gets power steals the wealth. Has nothing to do with "...the weak underbelly...", except for lovers of the Left like you. Truly dizzying intellect your display - Marx will be proud that another "..weak underbelly..." like you loves his propoganda.
On the other hand, Michael, several others like Savery invented useful steam engines but useful only in general applications.
We had to wait for Matthew Boulton, a Birmingham button maker, to come up with a steam engine that was generally useful.
His partner, James Watt, helped of course.
Just kidding about Watt. All glory to him for his invention that changed the world. He fully deserves to have the fundamental unit of energy named after him.
But without Boulton or somebody like him to figure out how to make and commercialize it, Watt's engine would have been just another curiosity.
We need some fundamental unit to be named the "Boulton". I propose changing the name "horsepower" to "Boulton"
1 Boulton = 745 Watts.
John Henry
The Clickspring series really is remarkable.
They not only recreate the mechanism, but engage the questions of the precise techniques with which it was made. This means recreating the hand tools used, files, drills, drill bits, vises, grinding and polishing tools, castings, measurement techniques, fasteners, assembly methods with pins and riveting, soldering, etc. and etc.
And besides that the conceptual translation of an astronomical model into a physical one, as the device is nothing less than a model of the ancient conception of the universe.
Its a total analysis of this thing, from the stroke of a file to the cosmic whole.
They do use a modern lathe a lot, but thats mainly because ancient bronze did not come as modern bar stock.
Lots of Irish in South America too.
Ambrosio O'Higgins was the Spanish Viceroy over Chile, Argentina, peru and some other parts of SA.
His son, Bernardo O'Higgins is better known. He brought independence to much of SA. (Bolivar to the rest)
John Henry
But without Boulton or somebody like him to figure out how to make and commercialize it, Watt's engine would have been just another curiosity.
Mokyr's point (and mine) is that legal protection for inventors so they could profit from inventions was a consequence of English Common Law and Patent Law. Somebody here probably knows the history of Patent Law better than I could but that is the point.
The law was not perfect. The Wright Brothers spent years defending their inventions and the guy credited with the mold board plow went broke trying to defend his patent.
Still, maybe the reason the Industrial Revolution had to wait until 1750 or so was there was no legal protection.
Maybe the reason why China lost all its inventions of antiquity was the arbitrary rule of dynasties and mandarins who did not value technology.
Sort of like our present day elites who think cars run by magic.
hstad:
the "Caravan People" looking for jobs in another country.
And so? I am looking for a BMW and a nice diamond ring. Can I steal yours?
Blogger johnhenry100 said...
Lots of Irish in South America too.
I don't know if you have ever read any of WEB Griffin's novels. He has a series about Argentina with quite a bit of history in them. Some of his Argentine characters are Irish descendants.
All of his novels have a lot of history that is quite accurate.
Oops.
The Savery engine wad not generally useful. I meant to say it was only useful in limited specific operations like phmping water out of mines.
Extremely useful there but not elsewhere.
BTW : andrew Carnegie's bio of Watt is an extremely good read. As is his autobiography. AC was a helluva writer for someone wit 3 months schooling.
John Henry
Buwaya
If you ever get to Vermont, visit the American Precision Museum in the old Robbins and Lawrence armory in Woodstock.
Great collection of machine tools dating back to the 1600s.
Tim,ever been?
Vermont used to be a powerhouse of machine tool manufacture up to the 1960s.
About Howard Dean and Bernie sanders moved there. Purely coincidence, I am sure.
John Henry
Here is what is happening to education,
Just in case anyone wondered why CBD oil is popular.
When Kaplan took her to task for missing class again, the student wrote:
He was interrogative throughout the conversation, as though I wasn't telling him what he expected to hear. He opened the conversation with asking me what was wrong. I told him that nothing was wrong... He said, "You're a young woman of color, so you have to try harder than everyone else, which isn't fair, but you know...'"
Boy was that the wrong move for a white guy! How dare he try and show sympathy and acknowledge that all those other kids with white privilege will never have to work as hard as this young lady of color. (Isn't that what the new racial line is? Not according to this chick.)
Hearing him try to explain or mention what he thought my experience was felt unproductive and made me feel like he is holding me to a certain standard based on my identity. I wasn't comfortable with how patronizing the direction of this conversation was going.
He couldn't very well give her an F because she is a POC.
Long letter at the link complaining about "racism."
Michael,
Huge Griffin Fan. Have read "The Corps" series more times than i can count. Ditto Brotherhood of War.
Ive read the two Argentine series multiple times. Almost but not quite as good.
His newer series with his so Presidential Agent held me enthralled the first time but I never felt an urge to reread.
His police series sucks imho. I couldn't even finish the first one.
John Henry
I am reading Hugh Thomas' ponderous History of Spain in America, and a few things clearly stand out thus far (not deep into the book yet),
The King and Queen both wanted SUBJECTS and LAND. Gold was, at this point, a side show.
They micromanaged EVERYTHING. Every person, animal and implement which entered or left the Americas, they kept track of. Sometimes ONLY, their hand picked were allowed in; sometimes they sold licenses but in all cases, there was a specific bureau who kept track of it all. The King demanded his Fifth or every clam, gram, or scam.
Slavery was very strongly frowned upon.
Eventually, we won't have any more room for all of these future doctors, astronomers, geologists, physicists, biologists, etc.
Right?
Vermont used to be a powerhouse of machine tool manufacture up to the 1960s.
The whole northeast was an industrial power based on water power.
My favorite restaurant in Vermont is not far from Dartmouth and is built in an old glass factory. It's called, Simon Pearce and still has the dam and the glass factory below the restaurant.
Its worth a trip to Vermont.
A friend knew web Griffin when he lived in Argentina, this last series clandestine ops has a mash goes to Berlin feel to it. About the origins of the CIA and the whole dealings with the gehlen org.
Well the way the Cuban revolution was presented, who could argue hence groups from the montoneros to the guatemalan insurgents materialized.
Another fellow who has since passed, said the police series was quite accurate, he never told me who Matt Payne was based on.
I don't think the marchers quite grasp how far 1400 miles actually is on foot. Few people these days can do it. And winter is coming
this last series clandestine ops has a mash goes to Berlin feel to it. About the origins of the CIA and the whole dealings with the gehlen org.
He is very old and the son is trying to keep the series going but anything after the first three or four of the Argentina post war books is poor writing. Sort of like Stephen Ambrose.
Blogger Unknown said...
I don't think the marchers quite grasp how far 1400 miles actually is on foot. Few people these days can do it. And winter is coming
They are getting trucked when the TV is off. The trucking company has a US license.
Lots of good ideas here - mine is this: enlist registered Democrats throughout the U.S. to serve as foster families. If your 'number' is picked its like the old Vietnam draft - you MUST host one of these families until they learn English, get their immigration status squared away, get jobs...etc... No if ands or buts. If a family member has to quit their job to help out with the project, tough shit. You must comply and you must assimilate your foster family or else your reputation and good name will be ruined by the Democratic party machine. Maybe an accusation of membership in a Nazi fringe group gets floated around social media....
Cause to reject every claim of "asylum" at the U.S. border.
One book I found interesting is The Forgotten Revolution: How Science Was Born in 300 BC and Why it Had to Be Reborn. Main takeaway--circa 200BC the Greek world had quite a flourishing of technology, that mostly seems to have been lost when the Romans took over. Hero et al are just the ones whose memory survived.
Tried posting this earlier and it went astray.
I'm afraid Howard has gone full Ethel Merman.
I bet pot is legal in his state.
Michael K requested evidence as to the epidemics that ravaged South and North America during post-Columbian European contact.
Here's what archaeologist Stuart J. Fiedel has to say about the question in his intriguing Prehistory of the Americas (quoting…):
Several differences in the development of Old and New World cultures may help to explain why, when they finally came into contact, the American civilizations collapsed before the onslaught of the European invaders. For one thing, the Native Americans never made any practical use of the wheel. Finds of wheeled toys demonstrate that the basic principle was known to the ancient Mexicans; but as they lacked any domesticated animal larger than the dog, vehicles offered no obvious advantage over the human back as a mode of transport. In the Andes, the domesticated llama was used as a pack animal, like its Old World cousin, the camel. The steep mountain slopes would have rendered wheeled vehicles useless.
In Europe, the wheel was the basic device from which all advanced technology involving pulleys, gears, cogs and screws was derived. However, despite the obvious advantage that the Spanish invaders held because of their crossbows, cannon, sailing ships, and other military hardware, the Aztecs successfully drove them out of Tenochtitlan. Superior wheel-based technology certainly contributed to the Spanish victory, but it was not the decisive factor.
Cortes's troops carried steel swords, and wore steel armor; the Aztec warriors wore cotton armor, and their swords were edged with sharp, but brittle, obsidian. Metalworking had not been introduced to Mexico until after A.D. 900. Gold and copper were used almost exclusively for nonutilitarian objects. The techniques of metalworking had probably diffused northward from the Andes, where copper smelting seems to have begun as early as 1200 B.C., in the southern Titicaca basin. At about the same time, gold was being worked in the central Andes. In Peru, some tools were made of copper and (by the time of the Incas) bronze; but, as in Mexico, metal was used primarily for ornaments and ceremonial objects. Iron smelting, which began in the Near East before 1000 B.C., was never developed by New World metalworkers. Again, as in the case of the wheel, the defeats suffered by Spanish forces at the hands of obsidian-armed Aztec warriors suggest that the natives' lack of iron or steel did not predetermine the outcome of their struggle with the Europeans.
The critical factor seems instead to have been the Native Americans' lack of antibodies against Old World microorganisms. Few, if any, infectious diseases were endemic in American populations. Several depictions in Mexican and Peruvian art of hunchbacks suggest that tuberculosis may have been present aboriginally, but if so, it was not a common ailment. A form of nonvenereal syphilis also seems to have been known in Mesoamerica before contact, and there is archaeological evidence of its early presence in North America: several skeletons dating from ca. 4000-3000 B.C., found at the Carrier Mills site in the lower Ohio Valley, displayed lesions that have been attributed to syphilis (Muller 1986).
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However, it was the arrival of the white man that first exposed the Native Americans to the viruses that cause smallpox and measles, and the rickettsia that cause typhus. An infected black soldier in the army led by Cortes's rival, Narvaez, brought smallpox from Cuba to the Mexican coast. The disease was soon carried to Tenochtitlan, where it ravaged the defenders of the city; among the dead was Cuitlahuac, who had organized the successful uprising against the Spanish. Decimated and demoralized, the Aztecs could no longer hold off Cortes's army, and Tenochtitlan fell (Diaz 1963). Within five years, smallpox spread through Central America, and reached Peru in 1525. The death of the Inca ruler, which precipitated the civil war between his successors and thus facilitated Pizarro's conquest of the empire, was caused by smallpox. These devastating smallpox epidemics were followed by outbreaks, in Mexico and Peru, of measles in 1530, and of a disease that was probably typhus in 1546.
The cumulative effect of these uncontrollable epidemics was a population loss of almost unimaginable dimensions (Ashburn 1947). Reasonable estimates of the Native American population at the time of contact are on the order of 57 million; some 21 million people lived in Mesoamerica, about 7.5 million inhabited the Inca empire, and the population of the Intermediate area and Caribbean islands may have been 14 to 15 million (Denevan 1976). It is thought that disease had wiped out 90% of the population of the nuclear zone (Mesoamerica, Peru, and the Intermediate area) by 1568; in other words, more than 39 million people had perished in less than 50 years following the initial outbreak of smallpox.
Why were there no American diseases to afflict the European invaders with equally terrible virulence? It has long been thought that syphilis was such a disease, because the first well-reported outbreak in Europe occurred shortly after Columbus's return from the New World. However, it now appears more likely that a nonvenereal strain of syphilis had always been present in Europe. When Europeans, reacting to the colder weather of the Little Ice Age, began to wear more clothing indoors, thus hindering the usual skin-to-skin transmission of the spirochete bacillus, the microbe responded by taking the venereal route (McNeill 1976). The virulence of the European outbreak might also have been caused by hybridization of Old and New World viral strains following contact.
Syphilis is the only disease for which an American origin is even arguable. There are two possible explanations for the absence of endemic diseases in the New World. The first is that microbes like the smallpox virus can only become established in human populations that are dense enough to permit frequent transmission from one human host to another, and numerous enough for there always to be disease-resistant survivors in which the virus can reside until the next outbreak -- in other words, these germs can only flourish in urban situations.
Densely occupied cities appeared in the New World 3,000 years later than they did in the Old World; nevertheless, the first probable smallpox epidemic struck the Mediterranean region as late as the third century A.D. Evidently, even in a hospitable urban environment, a human virus may take a long time to evolve. Perhaps the 1,500 or 2,000 years of urban life in the Americas were not enough time for this process to occur. However, early references to pestilence in the literature of both Mesopotamia and Egypt show that some form of contagious disease was already present in the Near East by 2000 B.C., only 1,000 years after the beginnings of urbanism. So lack of time in the New World does not seem to be an adequate explanation of the absence of endemic diseases in such dense settled areas as the Valley of Mexico.
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The near absence of diseases in pre-Columbian America can be more convincingly attributed to the paucity of domesticated mammals. Most of the microbes that caused the Old World diseases seem to have originally infected animals, and then shifted to human hosts. Thus, smallpox was evidently derived from cowpox, measles from rinderpest, and influenza from a disease that affects pigs (McNeill 1976). For the same reasons that endemic human diseases require large, dense populations, microbes more often afflict herd animals than the more solitary species. As we have seen, the people of Mesoamerica never domesticated any herd animals. They did, of course, have the dog; but the dog, which lived in small packs in the wild, was not the primary host for diseases that would attack humans.
This explanation therefore seems to be valid for Mexico, but it does not account very well for the Peruvian case. In Peru, llama herding seems to have been practiced by 2000 B.C., and possibly began as early as 4000 B.C.; the raising of guinea pigs may be of comparable antiquity. So not only was there a long period during which the ancient Peruvians maintained close contact with large camelid herds, but they also kept domesticated rodents in their dwellings. In the Old World, of course, the dreaded bubonic plague was transmitted by fleas from rodents to humans. If we hope to explain the absence of infectious disease in the native human population of Peru, we must first ask why the domesticated animals did not suffer from diseases similar to those that afflicted their Old World counterparts. Unfortunately, no one has come up with a very good answer to this question.
We can only speculate about the possible outcome of the confrontation between the Old and New Worlds, had disease not played so crucial a role. Might the highly-organized Incas, and the less efficient but equally fierce Aztecs, have successfully resisted the European invasion? Japan was never subjugated by the Europeans, and although China and India fell under Western domination for a century or two, the colonizers were ultimately driven out. Similarly, white colonists were ultimately forced to cede most of Africa to the native populations, retaining only the southern tip of the continent.
In contrast, only tiny remnants of the native population survived the wave of European colonization that swept over North America and much of South America. In the nuclear zone, a few million native people were left alive when the epidemics subsided. They abandoned the gods who had failed them in their time of need, and adopted the god of the Catholic priests. Unable to offer effective resistance, they generally resigned themselves to political domination and economic exploitation, although rebellions against the Spanish elite did flare up from time to time.
Although the native ideologies and political systems were obliterated by the conquest, many aspects of aboriginal culture, including some of the ancient languages, persisted among the rural villagers. After centuries of dominance, Hispanic culture has become so firmly entrenched, and the commingling of the native and alien races has proceeded so far, that full restoration of the indigenous traditions is impossible. Nevertheless, there has been a recent resurgence of interest and pride in the achievements of the Indian ancestors. This trend was nicely exemplified by the decision to demolish several seventeenth- and eighteenth-century buildings in the heart of Mexico City, in order that the central pyramid of Tenochtitlan might be excavated and restored.
(/unQuote)
Reference: Fiedel, Stuart J., Prehistory of the Americas, Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, 1992, pp. 362-366.
Lots of good ideas here - mine is this...
Seeing how Democrats want to issue drivers licenses to illegal aliens, or just provide them with a photo ID, and then permit municipal ID as sufficient to vote or outright encourage them to vote, here is my solution.
Since Russia is the new-old boogyman, I say whenever a wave of illegal aliens attempts to crash the gates, we fly in an equal number of Russians, get them a drivers license or municipal photo ID in every lefty state that permits it, get them registered to vote if not automatically registered through motor-voter, and then get them absentee ballots they can fill out straight-Republican and mailed while on the bus to the next city/state that permits this nonsense. City after city, state after state, for every election. And then we fly them back home.
And in turn, we pay each of these Russians the $$$ equivalent of two years worth of social welfare benefits that an illegal alien would typically collect.
And two years later, we do it again. Two years after that, we do it again.
Hey, if it's okay to let South American Marxists in, let them collect benefits, claim earned-income tax credits, use our hospitals, and vote in our elections, why wouldn't it be okay to do the same with Russians?
Similarly, white colonists were ultimately forced to cede most of Africa to the native populations, retaining only the southern tip of the continent.
However, they were forced by Africa or Africans. The Europeans ultimately left Africa to Africans because they were forced to by White people and European ideas.
However, it now appears more likely that a nonvenereal strain of syphilis had always been present in Europe.
Most of that is OK but does not include more modern DNA analysis. There have been studies that show indigenous people in Brazilian jungle settings have T. Pallidum. It does not appear to cause disease.
The other theory is the "yaws argument" that yaws was the same organism but only passed by skin contact among children in hot climates.
It's hard to be certain which is the case.
Hero et al are just the ones whose memory survived.
Also, the Library at Alexandria was burned and all the contents lost.
A friend knew web Griffin when he lived in Argentina, this last series clandestine ops has a mash goes to Berlin feel to it. About the origins of the CIA and the whole dealings with the gehlen org.
You do know that WEB wrote a bunch of the M*A*S*H goes to.... books under his real name..right? Berlin was one of the few European cities he didn't use.
His recent stand alone The Hunting Trip was supposed to be a callback to the M*A*S*H books.
His books always had shitty editing (I've always wondered why his publisher didn't hire a decent editor for him) but the writing was captivating. His Griffin stuff has mainly been the male version of Harlequin romances....and I bought and read them all.
His Griffin stuff has mainly been the male version of Harlequin romances....and I bought and read them all.
I never got into some of his novels, like the CIA/OSS series.
The ones I like are the Brotherhood of War and the Corps and the Presidential Agent series until the later ones.
I also like the Honor Bound ones, which are the Argentina series.
Young alpha male, smart, good looking, no money problems for one reason or another, cool and calm in a firefight, stumbles into a hot, smart successful woman who immediately falls for him, and goes on to do heroic type stuff. That's the plot of every Griffin series.
The ones I like are the Brotherhood of War and the Corps
I started reading these in middle school. In high school I discovered the M*A*S*H books, but didn't realize it was the same guy until after college.
and the Presidential Agent series until the later ones.
Yeah the last two definitely had the feel of "got to fulfill the contract".
I also like the Honor Bound ones, which are the Argentina series
Those evolved into the Clandestine Operations series. Clete and the Chief and others are in these books, but the main character is a childhood friend and neighbor of Clete.
That's the plot of every Griffin series.
It's using that he likes rich characters plus the non-rich ones keep getting more and more accomplished and well off. In one of the best, Semper Fi, the first of the Corps series, the character McCoy speaks Chinese but then also speaks Russian and Italian.
The Major, Banning, at first is described as having no family but "The Corps" but eventually he is the son a[of a prominent family in Charleston. His wife, is first described as the daughter of a Victrola dealer in Moscow but by the last of the series is the daughter of a Russian general and Count.
I still like the characters and his history is quite good. He was in Korea and assigned to Fort Rucker when it opened so his descriptions are very good.
Its amusing. Autocorrect again.
I would love to see a Game of Thrones style mini-series of either The Corps or The Brotherhood of War.
Hell...I'd love to see a M*A*S*H series based on the Butterworth books. It would be very very different from the original series.
bold move coming as a large invading force. both harder and easier that way.
"Prize Winning Photo of Americans being Mean to Brown People."
Kratman has a solution for that problem.
Gahrie,
That applies not just to Africa, but to everywhere. Yes, Japan did resist its own strength a long time... but ultimately Japan proves the opposite. They neither defeated the West militarily, nor outlasted us until we gave up to our own "virtues" and quit the battlefield.
I seem to remember, rather, a conversation that went sorta like this:
Japan: "We'll fight you to the death! And we mean real death, too!!!"
The West: "Seriously? Ok, we'll give you death wholesale* then; it's quicker and easier that way."
Japan [just barely**]: "Ummm, maybe not."
-------------------------------------
*Not just the nuclear attacks, either: the firebombing of Tokyo was equally devastating in terms of casualties.
**Few Americans realize how 'just barely' this was; how close the diehard army faction was to kidnapping the Emperor before he could record his surrender speech, or to capturing the recording and preventing its broadcast. "The war situation has developed not necessarily to Japan's advantage..."
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